V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)

[hotnhigh]

Please let me be wrong!!!!!!!!
Anyone in the know that the new 777 training manager for this operation has just paid for his own endorsement?:D:D:ugh:
After how many years at VB?????
Secondly, are the yarpies liking the sound of a command for $156000.

[donpizmeov]

Ya, I must tell you, it is all true. Will they now be know as Varpies?

Don

[27/09]

Anyone in the know that the new 777 training manager for this operation has just paid for his own endorsement?

After how many years at VB?????

What's the chance it's a cunning ploy.

One of the bosses pays for the endorsement, thereby setting the stage for all others to have to follow suit. If he hadn't paid for it then there might be a case for others not to have to pay.

Is it possible he is getting ex gratia payments to cover his "expenses"?

[Spad]

I suspect some will think this is a Jetblast topic, but when I look at the reporting on the current pilot shortage in Australia, V Australia offering 156K (or is it 168K? – whatever; both are a bloody insult) for a wide body international captain AND see the thread that the Virgin Training Manager is paying for his own endorsement onto the 777, I can’t help but feel – very strongly – that it’s very much an Australian Aviation topic.
‘The Australian’ 9 November, page 7
(Headline) Hawke strokes ALP’s fire in Howard’s seat
“Thank you, fellow union thugs,” was how Bob Hawke began an impassioned speech…. Mr Hawke… told an adoring crowd that Mr Howard’s campaign was built around two lies. The first was that the union movement was evil. “No institution has given more reality to the concept of a fair go,” Mr Hawke said.This from the man who oversaw and gloried in the destruction of unionised labour in the Aviation industry eighteen years ago at the bidding of a “mate”? Incredibly, the vast majority of Australians – and the Australian media - have such a short memory that no one puts the question to Hawke to ask him why unionism is such a good thing now, when he, the ex leader of the ACTU, forced pilots to enter into individual contracts (shades of ‘Work Choices’) and would not allow pilots to be represented by their union.
Look no further that this sorry excuse for a man if you want to lay the blame for the current sorry state of affairs in our industry.

[SOPS]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I thought the Training Manager was a new guy...not from within VB ranks? If it is true that he has paid for a rating..then am I to conclude there was not ONE Australian with 777 experience that wanted or was deemed suitable for the job?:confused:

[KRUSTY 34]

Either that, or they went down the seniority list untill they found someone so desperate for a managerial position, that they willingly "bent over" to become part of the club!

Actually, just kidding. It is more probable that the job went to a qualified outsider. But one has to ask. If it did go to a qualified outsider, why the need to buy an endorsement in the first place? One would think that if DJ were to go down that path, extensive 777 experience would be a requirement? So many questions????

Then again.... see paragraph 1?

[SOPS]

You a right Krusty..everytime a question is answered it creates more questions..it will be interesting to get all the FACTS laid out.

Spad, I could not agree more.:D

[Capt Basil Brush]

OR, it could be a wind-up??

Ever thought of that?

[Air Ace]

Spad.

Why is....

156K (or is it 168K? – whatever; both are a bloody insult)

:confused:

Three times the median national wage and comparable to salaries paid for similar positions in other developed countries......

[Hey Driver]

Air Ace, was this a typo did you mean underdeveloped countries, if not to which countries other than Aus/NZ are you referring? :confused:

[neville_nobody]

Err which developed country pays a 777 Captain A$160 000? US176 000?

Easy Jet/RyanAir pay their 737 captains more than that!

Any airline in the USA would pay more for a 777 captain!!

While it's a alot of money in anyone's language Australian pilots do tend to be on the lower end of the scale.

However you do have to consider cost of living, Forex and tax in the equation which makes it an impossible thing to compare country to country

[Wiley]

Air Ace, I'd be guessing he means as opposed to what almost every other 777 operator pays its captains.

There are quite a few people over here in the Sandpit who've expressed an interest in either going home, (or, in the case of the South Africans and Zims here, establishing a home for themselves in Godzone through the V Australia job), but I suspect that very few of them, after doing their sums, and particularly if they have school-aged children, will find they are willing to suffer such a large pay cut just to come to Australia.

(However, if the USD continues to go down the gurgler at its current rate, $A168,000 might start to look half way do-able!)

[Wizofoz]

A$160 000? US176 000?

Nev, I think you mean A$160 000 US148 000

No, I don't believe it either!!

Now Spad,

The former National Secretary of WHICH industrial organisation was instrumental in setting up the company offering this insult?:bored:

[MonsterC01]

These guys are going to have to be real careful they don't end up with a SAFA mafia running the show, as is the case in some other companies. If V Australia hires to many more south africans into management the VB Capt's that transfer over may end up being the only Aussies working for V Australia.
It's more than a little suspect that the Dir of Op's and now the Training manager are both SAFA's, and neither has any experiance on type.
I know for sure that one of the other guys that applied for the position was the 777 training manager at EK for 5 years, with 12 years Chk and Tng on type, AND AN AUSSIE!!!!
It's dishearting as an Aussie pilot working over seas to see Aussie airlines would rather try and find cheap overseas pilots, rather than pay a little extra to try and enchourage some of the experianced aussie pilots overseas to come home. Virgin were only too keen to reduce the 737 salary by 20% for guys going onto the jungle jets because it's a smaller plane. What a surprise that they're now not willing to apply the same logic to salaries when it's going the other way.
Looks like it will be a long time before I will be able to afford to take a job back in Australia!

The wait continues,

Monster.

[KRUSTY 34]

ahhh...MonsterC01,

The answer was right in front of me...

Cheap, O'seas labour! how else could you explain a training manager with no experience on type!!!

That's if it is true of course? :sad:

[jetblues]

I think you will find the chap is a Technical Manager, not training. His agreement with V Australia would be anyones guess, but I'm sure he will not be out of pocket. Salaries for the domestic VB Fleet Captains start at a base of $170k so the cash for a B777 will not be less than that surely? If it is you are quite right, who in hell would want it.

[Team America]

I still find it interesting that most of the guys up top in VB are ex 89 and are the guys making these decisions, ie Pay for type rating and work for less than going rate.


But as usual there are guys lining upto to work for thses T & C. :ugh:

[coaldemon]

Where exactly are these supposed T&Cs published? As usual not much fact and all speculation is running rife. Anything less than 220K and there will be not many takers but that is speculation not fact.
Also currently there are only two management captains from the 89 era all of the rest had nothing to do with it so you can throw that one out the door as a conspiracy theory.

[satos]

While it's a alot of money in anyone's language Australian pilots do tend to be on the lower end of the scale.
Correct.Australian pilots do tend to always getting the ****e end of the stick.

[bushy]

Australian pilots historically have failed to do research, and have trained in droves for a few available jobs. They did it to GA, and now they are doing it to airlines.
The end result is a chronic oversupply, and erosion of salaries, starting before 89.
Will it turn around? It hasn't yet. The demand has increased, but the erosion seems to be continuing, and it seems there are still surplus pilots. Just not as many as they are used to. Some fixes are in place and more are gearing up.
The pilot group are still speculating. I see no solid research into future supply and demand.

[Wiley]

I know for sure that one of the other guys that applied for the position was the 777 training manager at EK for 5 years, with 12 years Chk and Tng on type, AND AN AUSSIE!!!!I know V Australia knocked this bloke back in favour of the (non rated?) South African. The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man to have been found to be a better option than the Australian they knocked back... or cheaper.

I have to agree with the rather jaded comments others have already made that I think we can all expect to be hearing quite a few exotic, if southern hemisphere accents from VOz aircraft and will all have to get used to hearing "Itzapleaaassssure" over the radio.

[ScottyDoo]

Why so surprised? There has been no shortage of posts explaining this very fact of life here on prune.

There is NO shortage of cheap overseas labour willing to come and do what you guys think you will soon be paid more to do.

VOz will be a yarpy flying club soon where they toast each other, disassembled rape-cages and the dumb aussies whom they one-upped.

[hotnhigh]

Simply unbelievable. Pilots should be renamed (or is that named) whores for a better discription of the profession.
Supply and demand, shortage blah, blah, blah.
When will the penny finally drop with some blokes?

[DJ737]

Easy Jet/RyanAir pay their 737 captains more than that!


So **** off to EZY or FR and live in Bishops Stortford on about UKL 85K:hmm:

[greenslopes]

With reference to the Ryanair/european ops and the pay they offer- I think "DJ737" you may have missed the point.

The point being what chance do "V Australia" have to attract 777 Captains when the Virgin group cannot pay their 737 Captains what they are worth on the world stage, lets face it VOz are appealing to the world market to supply them with Captains for the 777 Ops.
Compounding this, who would pay for a type rating to fly for this mob(V Oz) when the parent Co(V.B) are doing so well.

New recruits to VB were told 2000/2001 they had to pay for their own 737 rating as they were a start up Co and did not have the resources or the money to pay for new employees ratings, that is not the case now.
It is as obvious as the nose on my face, if the Virgin group wish to start a succesful international operation they need do do things properly.

Not the usual half arsed,cheap as chips approach we are all used to.

Case in point is the debacle of new drivers for the E-Jet. The Co could not even pay them enough allowances to cover their cost of living whilst O.S etc,etc,etc

[KRUSTY 34]

So why did they agree to go?

[greenslopes]

Because they naively thought the company would do the right thing.
The only thing worth remembering, "If it aint in writin,it aint gonna happen"!

[Gnadenburg]

Adjusted for inflation, the 150K mark is about right.

In 01 John's Merry Men repatriated to Oz and were payed 100K as Virgin Blue training captains. Actually, I don't even think they were on retainers whilst the AOC was delayed.

So, an aviation cycle on, and Virgin is paying training captains less than the F/O's of the incumbent competition ( QF ).

Trailer trash......... :)

[Poto]

Anyone know how a tripler Er will go LAX-MEL if MEL requires an Alternate, with the proposed VB configuration:confused:

Will it do it easily?

[Placido]

Hi all,

Well, I know of a quite a number of Boeing Captains in South Africa that earn less than Aus$100k/year.

Combine that with conditions in their country, and you'll find that there are many that will jump at this job.

They are busy doing the ATPL conversion and will be sharing cost for the 777 sim.
Come interview time, these guys will be licensed and rated.

Back to the man who's running the training at VA, yes he IS that capable and good. One of the best in the business.

Amazing, I don't hear any complaints about all the SAFA Doctors, nurses, engineers, vets etc. etc. keeping good old Oz running. Now you're complaining about pilots!

[galdian]

Happy to be corrected and certainly aware we are more liberal than most countries but don't persons who wish to reside in Oz STILL have to apply, be processed and eventuall approved (or not)???

All the talk here makes it sound like anyone will be allowed to stroll in with no questions asked.

On another topic like it or not Placido is 100% right - if people perceive it as an improvement/step up they will move countries and take positions.
You only have to look at the contract world to see that in the last few years the South Americans are greater in numbers as well as other nationalities.

It would appear that, in the case of V international it will be the Yarpies who will benefit (subject to regulatory approval!) :suspect:

Of course for the Yarpies it will be like a nice lottle win on the pokies; V International, in keeping the salaries soooooo low, will literally have won the mega draw in tattslotto. :*

Gotta hand it to VB management - whether by good management or plain old dumb luck, with the pilots agreement over the line by 3% and now possibly (probably?) driving down the pilot salaries for V Int. they are doing very nicely thank you very much.
However I have no doubt it is really the "duck" syndrome - on the surface all calm, below the surface paddling like buggery! :p

[A. Le Rhone]

I disagrree with the wisdom of VB management should they take the path of payling appalling salaries.

Right now they are deeply distressed about being able to man VB flights, due to the aircrew shortage and attrition.

This was all brought about because they insisted on such cheapness in the operation (from pilots paying for their own ratings to paying well below QF salaries). Whilst some were just happy to be 'home' this quickly subsided into a simmering resentment. Now pilots leave for Emirates etc at a quickening pace. That carriers' recent orders for so many new aircraft will not help VB's situation.

So if they do pay peanuts and insist on type-ratings or sub A$250k salaries for Captains, they may make it work initially but will just be creating another longer-term disater for themselves.

I hope they are sensible this time round - time will tell.

[MonsterC01]

No one on this thread is denying that the pilots that would come from south africa are experianced and capable operators. I fly with a number of SAFA pilots at my current company and their all good guys with a lot of knowledge and skill. My point is simply Australia is surpose to be a country of well developed industrial policies and laws geared towards maintaining a resonable balance between capital and labour. No one can deny that in recent years that balance has unashamedly been allowed to favour Australian companies and their agendas. It isn't right or fair that these companies that still enjoy the protections offered by these policies should be allowed to circumvent them when they don't work in their favour.
It wasn't that long ago that Qantas cried all the way to the government and the ACCC when Emirates and Singapore Airlines applied for the right to carry passengers on the Kangaroo route. they claimed it was unfair on Australian operators to have to compete against overseas carriers, as they had to pay Australian workers in accordance with Australian Awards, and these overseas carriers wouldn't (even thou these overseas carriers offer better pay and benifits than Ozzy operators do). Now these same Australian companies want to deny Ozzy pilots the same consideration and protection they enjoy by being allowed to bring in cheaper overseas pilots to crew their aircraft without any oversight from unions, the ACCC or the government.
We allow SAFA doctors, engineers and nurses into australia as there is a genuine shortage of skilled labour in these fields, even after the government and private sector increased pay and working conditions, even offering government grants for people to attend university. This is not the case in the aviation sector. We have more than enough Australian pilots to fill all of the current vacancies, the differance here is that now most ozzy pilots want to be resonable compensated to do so. If Voz were to offer a competitive package of T & C for 777 pilots today, i have no doubt that they would have 1 000+ applications from ozzy pilots with heavy jet experiance tomorrow. But they don't want to, even though they can afford to. Australian Airlines are amongst some of the most profitable airlines in the world. The problem is they wont to continue on with business as usual at the expense of the people who make it happen.
The Australian government should only allow an Australian company to bring in overseas labour when that company can clearly demonstraight that they are unable to fill those positions with australian citizans, even after offering a competitive industry standard wage. This is not the case here. Here Voz want to import foreign labour to avoid paying an acceptable industry standard wage.
So placido, while your point is valid, it has no bearing on the issue this tread seeks to address. As i know for a fact if the tables were turned, there is no way on god's green earth that the SA government would ever let Aussie expat pilots come over to Africa and take South African jobs.
All Ozzy pilots are asking of Voz is to allow the door to swing both ways.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

Monster.

[ratpoison]

Monster, bloody well said ol' chap. :D

[FlyingBuddha]

With the industry in its current condition we as pilots are in a strong position to negotiate terms.

Don't accept crappy pay-for-type offers.

The terms will go up, or planes will park up. If they manage to somehow recruit cheap overseas labour, then :mad: em. We'll go overseas also, to where airlines are directly competing against eachother for the BEST crew, not the cheapest. And these aussie operators will begin to get the dodgy reputation they will deserve.

Apply to VAus, select No to answer the question re: paying for endorsement. The more of us that do this the better.

Rock this boat we will.

Buddha

[Fliegenmong]

Not wrong monster - sought employment years ago in Sith Effrica (early 90's) not a chance as an Oz passort holder - unless I could do something that no other South African could do.

Fortunately being Aussie there are a great number of things I can do that they can't :E
But that's not the point

[Dexterdawg]

Fortunately being Aussie there are a great number of things I can do that they can't
What? Like play rugby? :ouch: :E

[amos2]

Well, you are all where you are today because of 89'.

So you know who to blame, don't you?

And you also know what to do to correct the situation, don't you?

But you wont do it, will you? :hmm:

[KaptinZZ]

What developed countries Air Ace? Indonesia, India, China? OK, got it.

[Spaz Modic]

:8 Well, one thing about the SA drivers, they sure know how to get on the p1ss - just before they get on the ship with wings. Seen that a few times. :O

[greenslopes]

Well why don't we start a thread on chocolate milkshakes, or cherry ripes, or whatever and see how long before someone draws parallels between that and the dispute of 89.
Get over it guys, this is the present.
No amount of howling at the moon will bring back what could have been.

[Wiley]

Since we all received the VOz update request, I've conducted a little mini survey among friends here in the Sandpit, and if the replies I've received are anything to go by, I think VOz and Jet* are heading for a big disappointment if they think they're going to get too many starters from over this way at the current packages both airlines are offering.

Both airlines seem to be falling for the same trap EK management have fallen for in recent years, believing that every pilot who applies will actually take up an offer of employment.

[indamiddle]

to all u guys who want to have some fun at the expense of v oz and others.
why not apply even if u have no intention of taking the position, you can tick the box NO re paying for the endorsement...it sends a message and paperwork at the same time

[FlyingBuddha]

Right on Indy! :ok:

I'm with ya. Let's do it.

Now we just need a couple of hundred others. Brothers and sisters... who's in???

[Shagtastic]

who's in..

The minute handfull of pilots left in the industry without a job maybe?

Hopefully they'll do the right thing and tick the 'No' box.

Shags

[The Bunglerat]

Hey abc1, can't help feeling like I struck a raw nerve with you, concerning that other thread you so kindly reproduced my comments from.

For a long time I have been careful not to get caught up in arguments over T&C's/buying endorsements and the like, because like the year that cannot be mentioned, some people will just never get over it. However at the risk of making myself a target, what I will say is that my decision to accept a position with such T&C's (that are considered by some like yourself to be questionable), was based on how it will impact my family first - and my career second.

Wouldn't the world be just wonderful if we as pilot brethren all banded together, clasping hands, and sang songs of unity, love, support and all other manner of warm and fuzzy s**t. Oh, if wishing only made it so. In reality, there is no loyalty, and there is no brotherhood. I think it is a sad reflection on the state of affairs that, for every nice guy I've met in this industry over the years, there are ten more a***holes lined up in front of him. Whilst I myself am a pilot, at the same time it embarrasses me to admit to it - simply because of the way in which I too often see this industry turn grown, rational adults into 12-year-olds who can do little more than piss on each other and compare dick size. The only reason I've tolerated this industry for so long is because I still love flying for flying's sake.

Nevertheless, whilst my flying is a passion that I shall continue to indulge for as long as circumstance allows, it is not the be-all and end-all of my life, and I could just as easily walk away from it tomorrow, as I could continue for another twenty years - which is why I'm able to sleep at night knowing that I make decisions based on how it affects my loved ones - not some anonymous PPRuNer who gets on his/her soapbox because he didn't like it.

[fender]

I'm with ya rat.

[FlyingBuddha]

Some fair points rat. No worries. Lets not let this thread turn into another dead end debate though.

I'm still in GA. I would like to work for the Virgin Group. I'm not paying for an endorsement with the way the current industry is, although I could afford to if I wanted. I feel there is very little competition for me and other pilots to secure a jet job somewhere in the next 2-3 years, and I am happy to go overseas if required.

Some pilots will use the 'opportunity' to pay as an advantge to get in before me. Personally I think that's just silly. But everyone has their own reasons, morales and principles which they live their life by.

Tick the no box.

[Ochre Insider]

Sent an email last week outlining my experience (3000 jet FO, 2500 of which B767), and politely requesting details of their T&C's. I figure no point in lodging an official application unless I know whether I'm prepared to move.

As yet no response.

[Coppertopthegreat]

Bunglerat I indeed hear your sentiment but I still think the majority of pilots that I have come across in Australia are reasonably united and great people. If everyone were as segregated as you say there would be no fun on the flight decks across OZ. There is indeed a brotherhood amongst us. Flying by day, getting the job done and having a laugh and then have a few frosties at the end of the day. Everyone is trying to enjoy their job and be paid fairly for it. Some companies in Oz are still a fair way off the mark but the view is improving. The unions are paid to take care of the industrial stuff. If your not getting what you want from your union vote them out and get a new lot that will get you what you want (JPC have a good look at yourselves).
Its a great day when you can sit there above the crappy weather and have a laugh with the pilot sitting next to you while you hear the poor old navajo that you used to fly 20000ft beneath you. If you can couple that with the right remuneration and conditions (which is the unions job to get for you), your work life is set.
I go to work to go flying and interact with good people and get paid properly. Thats what we all should be striving for.


the only good thing the South Africans did was beat England and I thank you for that......

[MAX]

So has anyone got a positive reply yet from VOz?

MAX:cool:

[Pin Head]

Reading the Vaustrailia recruitment site, I am correct in saying that they are not insisting on local citizens only or those with a work permit. Are any other carriers doing the same know. Add Jetstars and QF expansions plans, is this a pernament sign of things to come?

[Hottie]

Hi Pin Head,
Let's hope all the perceived movement in Oz is a sure sign of things to come. Australia deserves a much-awaited pilot employment frenzy..followed by, of course, DECENT, FAIR and RESPECTABLE working conditions...
There's lots of us abroad, who'd love to come home one day..so fingers crossed for everyone... those presently in Oz, and those of us living overseas. :ok:

[Wiley]

One would hope that we might hear something in the way of a press statement on this matter from ALL the (too?) many unions that represent pilots in Australia.

Unfortunately, as has been mentioned already in another thread, the precedent seems to have already been set - VOz would appear to have selected a non national, non-777 rated Chief Pilot (or was it Chief of Training?) over an Australian who is currrent on type and who also has significent check and training experience on type - like more than ten years' worth.

One can only assume that if non-nationals are willing to pay for their endorsements and work for a lesser wage than Australians are, in these current times of economic rationalism, they'll get the jobs over Australains who are not quite so willing.

Students of Australian history would be able to draw some disturbing parallels to events in the 1890s and the establishment of the now much derided White Australia Policy. What many of today's Politically Correct seem too ready to gloss over when they talk about the travesties of the W.A.P. is that it was as much about protecting wages for Australians as about race. It was just that back then, the people willing to come to Australia and work for lower wages were predomininatly Chinese, whereas today, that's not nesessarily the case.

[Hobagoas]

I wouldn't compare the managerial jobs with the pilot jobs going at VAus.
The task of introducing a new type, long haul operation and all that goes with it, requires much more knowledge and experience than one individual with a mere type rating may have. I reckon they would have taken that into account when employing the most suitable person for the job- as this gentleman most definitely has the skills required.

[tinpis]

Goodness..next thing the place will be flooded with Ppoms :uhoh:

[dwarfhunter]

Tinpis we might even get Kiwi's, doesn't matter much we can't beat either of them in Rugby.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Tinpis

Don't knock the Ppoms!

There's many an Aussie pilot who got their long awaited break on a shinny jet in mother England & Scotland..lost their sun tan in the process and learnt to drink warm beer, a small price to pay :}

And didn't have to pay for the rating either, unlike the scam being perpetrated downunder, (Irish Low Cost carriers aside).

Blue foot

[MTOW]

One would hope that we might hear something in the way of a press statement on this matter from ALL the (too?) many unions that represent pilots in Australia.I have to say a similar thought had crossed my mind. The silence from the new AFAP president on this and the Rex business has been deafening to date.

[Out-of-balance]

Read below: I've commented on this before and still believe PE will own DJ in the next 6 months. My bet is that Toll will be involved but VBA will not be a listed company next year. So, for those that think they want to apply to VA and then turn there noses up; go right ahead. Even better book your discounted fare OS now and apply somewhere else beacuse unless your gamefully employed here seats will be filled with or without you.

OOB
Gamefully & Happily employed in the best place in the world - OZ. :)


3:21 PM Nov 16, 2007
print articlehttp://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/print.gif (javascript: window.print();)
Alan Kohler
A nation of city-hoppers



A week before Tiger Airways’ first Australian flight takes off at Tullamarine the aviation industry is abuzz with talk that David Bonderman’s Texas Pacific Group (TPG) may be looking at taking a major stake in Virgin Blue.

TPG was one of the key players in the Airline Partners Australia bid for Qantas earlier this year and it is thought that having failed to buy Qantas, Bonderman is thinking about attacking it.

Whether or not Toll Holdings’ Paul Little decides to sell Toll’s 63 per cent or to raise new equity and dilute, the future of Virgin Blue is one of the many things in play in Australian aviation at the moment.

Tiger’s first flight next week – plus Qantas’s massive increase in capacity announced this week, aimed mainly at its discount subsidiary Jetstar – are pointers to the arrival in Australia of the low-cost revolution that has transformed air travel elsewhere in the world, especially in Europe.

And ironically the long-standing discount airline, Virgin Blue, has been chasing Qantas upmarket, just as the Singapore Airlines’ offshoot Tiger Airways prepares to put five planes into the air with maximum fares below $100 and some at $9.95.
Aviation industry sources now expect any recapitalisation of Virgin Blue, possibly involving David Bonderman and TPG, to fund a very serious attack by Virgin on Qantas’s business travel franchise, accompanied by the launch of a new low-cost carrier by the Toll subsidiary – emulating the Qantas/Jetstar business model.

The Australian tourism business is in a state of high excitement about arrival next week of Tiger.

In Europe the low-cost revolution led by Ryanair has produced 20 per cent per annum growth in air travel. People are heading from London to Paris for dinner and to Madrid for the weekend. The new habit is to look on the internet for the best air ticket deals and go wherever they take you. Zagreb? Sounds great – let's go.

As a result Ryanair is now ranked the number one international airline, carrying 40,532 passengers in 2006 according to IATA, with further growth this year having extended its lead.

If the experience of Europe and Asia is any guide, the amount of air travel in Australia is about to explode.

Tigers’ chief Tony Davis says he expects to lift its capacity quickly from five aircraft to 30. At the same time, Jetstar’s capacity is being increased dramatically as a result of this week’s announcement from Qantas, and Virgin Blue is almost certain to be recapitalised and linked with a major long-haul airline.

In addition AirAsia, the discount carrier operating out of Kuala Lumpur’s low cost carrier terminal is proposing to fly into Melbourne’s Avalon airport next year. It is currently flying into the Gold Coast three times a week.

AirAsia has said it expects to fly A320s between Avalon and KL for $350 one-way, or $700 return. With Jetstar and Tiger also offering cheap Asian tickets, the economics of flying to Asia are also about to be transformed.

A few challenges arise from this. Although a big increase in capital city tourism will be great for the shops and restaurants in those places, regional tourism is in trouble. If it costs as much to fly from Sydney to Melbourne as it does to drive to the NSW south coast or Byron Bay, then more people might do that instead.

And Australia’s airports will have to lift their game – fast. Tiger will be using Melbourne’s Terminal 3, which is a shed off to the side of Terminal 2, first used by Virgin Blue and Compass.

It will do for a while, but the future of air travel is low cost, so Melbourne Airport will need to deal properly with the low cost carriers and their growing legions of customers.

And as for Sydney – Tiger is flying to Newcastle, not Sydney, which is too expensive. It’s great for Newcastle and people living in the Hunter Valley and the NSW north coast – but really, it’s not good enough.

[Launchpad McQuack]

learnt to drink warm beer, a small price to pay


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Shiny jet in the motherland isn't looking so shiny anymore :{


As a result Ryanair is now ranked the number one international airline, carrying 40,532 passengers in 2006 according to IATA


That's got to be a typo right??

LP

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Launchpad McQuak

'Aircraft' will put you straight..don't worry!:suspect:


Blue Foot

[tinpis]

Boobie

Tinpis

Don't knock the Ppoms!

There's many an Aussie pilot who got their long awaited break on a shinny jet in mother England & Scotland..lost their sun tan in the process and learnt to drink warm beer, a small price to pay

Including me but it wernt a shiny jet but a big dirty four engine prop jobby leakin oil :uhoh:

[Launchpad McQuack]

big dirty four engine prop jobby


What machine would that have been tin?

[cunninglinguist]

People are heading from London to Paris for dinner and to Madrid for the weekend. The new habit is to look on the internet for the best air ticket deals and go wherever they take you. Zagreb? Sounds great – let's go

The usual journalistic dribble, 'cause Oz is so similar to europe, both in population and time it takes to go somewhere completely different ( ie., difeerent cultures, landmarks, cuisines etc etc ) :rolleyes:

I can picture it now :

" Oy, Mildred "
" what Dar'l "
" wanna pop up to Newcastle for a pie and a VB ? "
" sounds good Dar'l, lets went "

Good grief :ugh:

[tinpis]

I woulda gone nuts livin in the Yewkay if it werent for interline agreements and the ability to shove off somewhere sunny for a day or two
Those that havent lived there may not appreciate what a terrible ****e climate it is.

Sadly all museum pieces now Mr Quack:(

[sweetpollypurebred]

Apparently there's a few "Hero's" interested. I think there coming to save the day!:yuk:

[ScottyDoo]

I can never remember; are the heroes the ones who left or the ones who joined?

[amos2]

Well, you tell us what you did...and we'll tell you what you are! :=

[vref+10]

Correct me if I,m wrong but haven't there been Aussie Mafia's at Cathay and Emirates in the past?

[stable approach]

The obvious difference is that these airlines were unable to recruit sufficient locals. Just curious, how many foreigners did South African employ?

[galdian]

Stand to be corrected but believe the word I'm looking for is " touche! " :ok:

[ShockWave]

Ppom?........ should be pohm I think (prisoner of her majesty).

Looks like Rudd has made it clear where he thinks Pilots belong. No HECS assistance but some money will be made available for an apprenticeship! I guess thats a step up from being a bus driver! http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22765267-23349,00.html

With a long term order of just seven 777s I don't think V Australia will need to recruit non nationals at all. If they are going to fly long haul with just one Captain then they will only need around 50 line Captains employed progressively over the next few years. That should not be difficult if the Terms and conditions are anywhere close to reasonable.

[777Contrail]

Safa Mafia?!

Do any of you know for a fact that the new chief training at VA does NOT have residency at least? Or maybe even a Aus passport?

Do you know how long he's been living in Aus?

Don't be surprised if you meet a whole bunch of new Aus residents with brand new ALTP licenses next year.............................

To answer some of the questions above.

Only South African Airways used to have a policy of employing citizens only.
Australian citizens can validate their license and work in South Africa with a work permit - no recidency required.

And yes, I've met a couple of Australians that's doing that - and working for some of the other airlines in SA.

South Africa has a HUGE skills shortage at the moment (drained away by the likes of Australia), and they're employing people from all over the globe all the time.

So, if you guys don't like the idea of Saffas in VA, fill all the vacancies.

Oh, I forgot! You don't get up in the morning for that kind of money.......or pay for your own qualifications.

Oh well, by the time you wipe the poo out of your eyes the Saffas will have the license, rating, recidency and the job.

They must be wishing you will stick to you guns long enough, so they can grab the positions before you do!

[greenslopes]

Nice one "777", winning defeat out of the jaws of victory!
Tossre!

[Bluebaron]

Well i think they should recruit UK nationals only as it is a British company (virgin) and you guys have been over here for years taking all the jobs!!;)

[MTOW]

777C***trail, with an attitude like that, I suspect you would have quite a difficult time fitting in in your adopted country - unless you lived in in some razor wired, high-walled, transposed Yapea gated community somewhere in Australia, where you could talk only to others who shared your views.

[Gnadenburg]

Can't blame South Africans for wanting to leave their country.

That said, no need to be cheap about it. The last long haul contract out of Sydney- Air China A330- offered significantly more coin. Especially when considering taxation treaties between Oz & China.

[FullySickBro]

Fellas,

Any ideas when interviews will begin for line flight crew?? Put an application in for "cruise" F/O positions, does anyone have any ideas of salary, T&Cs??

Cheers.

[tinpis]

:hmm:
MORE than 40,000 New Zealanders have been lured to Australia during the past year in what is the biggest exodus for a decade, new figures show.

The Dominion Post newspaper reported today that figures from Statistics New Zealand show the number of New Zealanders moving to Australia was up almost 6200 on the previous year.

During the same period only about 13,000 Australians migrated across the Tasman, leaving a net loss of about 26,500 from New Zealand.

[Chocks Away]

(Annex to tinpis' comment)
That's right Tinpis... and the media is SO surprised at that?
Australia:
-5 tax cuts in 5 years has meant that someone on $40-large in Oz is paying HALF THE TAX on their earnings of someone in NZ!!!
-GST has been concrete at 10% for years, as opposed to 12.5% in NZ (If Labour gets in this weekend there's NOTHING stopping them raising GST!)
-Less Local Councils and rates in Oz, PLUS Councils not in businesses they shouldn't be in, like in NZ.
-Way better Terms and Conditions in Oz.
-ACCC in Oz to monitor corruption/collusion (on petrol $ !) and unfair trading, NZ...?
It's no surprise evertone wants to move there given the stability and growth of the last 10 years :D ...it's just us pilots that need to band together to better our lot.
:ok:

[F.QII]

I know at least a dozen of my mates here in dubai have applied for both captains and fo slots ,all with loads of hours on the 777 but not one of them has even had a reply,all ozzies looking at moving back home after doing there time in the sand,so what the go then?

[MTOW]

I think you'll need to hold your collective breath until around Feb.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

I know at least a dozen of my mates here in dubai have applied for both captains and fo slots ,all with loads of hours on the 777..........brave boys to apply without knowing the t&cs.......must have saved up a stack of money in the sand pit......wish i had that sort of money to be able to apply to an airline without caring what i get paid...couple of lads up here are waiting for a reply on t&cs before applying..........if its as bad as jetstar they won't get any starters from here...they did that exercise a while back!!!!!!:{

[Razor]

applying and accepting are mutually exclusive I would have thought.

[coaldemon]

I would have thought the best way to describe it is expressing an interest in the job only.

[Watchdog]

The VB website (VA ops) is calling for "expressions of interest" not 'applications'. Express interest - they advise what's on offer - then you apply if you like the sound of it.
As they don't intend to start for another 12 months, they'd hardly be in a hurry to start recruiting this far out.

[F.QII]

If you look at the VA web page it has said for the last 2/3 weeks now accepting APPLICATIONS:cool:

[2XL]

Curious if anyone has had a reply or been sent further information. Any interviews yet?

[KaptinZZ]

Spad, the AFAP did represent the pilots and weren't prevented by Hawke from doing so.
The AFAP represented the 100 or so pilots who hadn't resigned and they were the only ones entitled to be represented.
But let's not enter into another 'how we wuz wronged in '89". It's been done to death.

greensloped, page 5, is right on; somebody satart a thread onchocolate milkshakes. There must be an as yet unthought of connection to 89. You can bet spad will find one.

[F.QII]

latest rumour from the pit is a base of around 185/190 and with allowances which should nudge the 200 Aud mark.
Not sure if that will be enough to get many guys to return from the pit or asia!

[meagain]

You're kidding, they have applications hanging outta their proverbial backsides. I'm in and so are MANY more. Moneys OK, have you checked the $US lately, Most Asian carriers and the Sandpit guys are getting paid in the US peso, which is bad and getting worse. Don't kid yourselves , there are plenty of blokes out here who'd come back for the jobs, pilot shortage, never, maybe for a few 777 endorsed guys here and there but there's plenty lining up for Tiger, VB and J*.... I'm not stirring, it's a fact;)

[2XL]

Meagain if the money is ok, tell us what it is. Forget the rumours let's hear some facts.

[nohumbug]

Just out of interest, if a training managers wage is $156K ..what would the s/o (clerk) get ?

[rexxxxxy]

I'm told this what is currently being worked on :-

Captain - VB 737 Captain + 20% (including allowances & annual increases) so $209,019

First Officer - 60% of Captains Rate so $125,411

Junior First Officer - 85% of First Officer rate so $106,599

Second Officer - 60% of First Officer rate $75,426

The caliber of the candidates is impressive with many expats that hold very senior positions in many 777 operations who have applied.

More info as I get it..

[Tankengine]

Hmm, about 2/3rds of QF - really good deal!:ugh:

[2XL]

Tank the rat does not have B777 so how can the offer be 2/3 of QF ?

I hear when you compare the QF and VB B737 scales the FO's are very similar however the Captains in QF are ahead - as long as they get overtime.

[stable approach]

rexxxxxy,
I think you'll find a big difference between the number of highly qualified guys that have applied, and those that would accept a substandard offer. I have 5 years LHS on the B777 and have applied to get in the queue, however like everybody I don't have a clue about the actual terms and conditions, and if they are not up to par I will happily stay where I am overseas

[Spad]

KaptainZZ, I tried to send you a personal message, but I see you've set up your account not to receive them, so apologies for the off-thread comment to everyone else. the 100 or so pilots who hadn't resigned????? Eh? My memory's getting a bit dim on what the actual numbers were who didn't resign, but try dropping the final zero and I think you'll be closer to the mark - a LOT closer to the mark.
As for the AFAP representing them.... I think the SMS code for that comment is 'LOL' - for laugh out loud. From that comment, I can only assume you weren't actually around at the time, KaptainZZ, and have learned all about those days from only one self-serving perspective.
Back to the subject of the thread: I agree that many of the pilots overseas are tyre-kicking. If 10% of the overseas pilots who've applied take the job, I'll be surprised. But if the salary package is as someone stated above, around $200,000 to $220,000 a year, they might get a few starters the way the US Dollar is going.

[Tankengine]

2XL,

Ok, about 2/3 of QF737 and about 2/3 of A330 then![simmilar size]:rolleyes:

Still less than "industry standard":ugh:

[Capt Fathom]

If this has been covered before, I have missed it....

Will the current VB crew get positions with V Australia, or is it open slather?

[Going Boeing]

Tank, As a number of QF B737 Captains earn more than the junior B744 Captains then it would be valid to also say that the V Oz B773 pay is 2/3's of the QF B744 pay.

Capt Fathom, I understand that there is an agreed ratio of existing DJ pilots to DEC's. I don't have the details though.

[jetblues]

Re the VB mainline numbers to be offered B777, it is 4/7ths of first 7 a/c then who knows for the remainder??????????????????????

[Tankengine]

Going Boeing,
Urban myth, just get contracts off AIPA site and do the maths.:)

I've been on 744,737 and now A330, with 151 and minimal O/T the 744 is going to be above 737 [without mentioning the workload!]:}

You are right though that it is generally less and hopefully can be increased due to the lack of qualified drivers happening worldwide!:ok:
The point is that some people think V oz's "rumoured" pay is good[it is not]!

Australia is a great place and I well understand why many would accept lower pay to live here [myself included] but it is still a sub standard deal, Jetstar even worse.[My mates O/S would love to come back but asked if the numbers were "monthly, fortnightly or weekly!?]:}

The way the $US dollar is going this may start looking better of course!:hmm:

[flyknight]

Just heard - Jetstar is coming to South Africa to recruit pilots. They offer employment and sponsored visa's for suitable candidates. Interviews in Jnb from 8 Jan 08. The excodus is about to start.... the Yarpies are coming

[Roger Copy Ta]

Disgusting!

:yuk:

Jetstar make me sick. You can't even apply online without having to pay them $15! No wonder they can't find pilots!

I hope they get laughed out of SA aswell.

[The_Equaliser]

The fact is J* can't recruit the Yarpies with sponsored visas at this stage with the immigration rules as they stand, so keep dreaming boys. Also change of govt will put more pressure on the dodgy visas already issued by J* and now Virgin Australia. Time to get the ACTU to start having a close look at what has happened already. Is it true that President IW at AIPA has formed closer links with the ACTU over the last couple of years? Good stuff I say.

[Gnadenburg]

I heard they are sussing out Dragonair pilots as DEC's.

[Tankengine]

True, a Dragonair guy I know asked them if the numbers mentioned were weekly, fortnightly or monthly. His reply when told monthly was F%$£ off!!:}
He would love to come home but not for peanuts!

[On Guard]

Anyone get a phone call today?

[Break Right]

yep!!:}:ok:

[Out-of-balance]

Well done! Timing?

[Break Right]

contact Dec/Jan
Interviews Feb
Training May

[Out-of-balance]

Thanks! Clearly they're in no hurry. Is it simply A/C availability?

[whatdouknow]

I hope Jetstar don't use 457 visa's like another branch of the QF company.

Those guys got screwed too and will probably go back home soon too!

Yep, all is ok, bring your family put your kids in school, move the dog and live like real Aussies.

Aussies with no rights, no medicare card nothing. Left to rot because your new employer is using you to make up numbers.

[On Guard]

Break Right.

You got the call for an interview?

Reason I ask is I was flying so got a message left on cell and they said will call me in a couple of days. Don't want to get hopes up but...

What hours have you got and what position did you apply for? I see the applications close 14 Dec now.

[woodja51]

Are you guys talking about the Virgin Australia recruitment calling or jetstar??
M

[whatdouknow]

Not sure but I guess they know... ;)

[Out-of-balance]

V Australia

[whatdouknow]

So will the SA Pilots be sponsored or will they emigrate?

[Dragun]

Question

If V Australia is recruiting DE Captains and FO's, how is progression expected for someone taking a 'cruise FO' position (I guess from FO to Captain too)? Also, with whatever progression there is, what time frame would be reasonable - especially with a brand new airline? Surely getting in on the ground level would make for quick movement as the airline expands.

Obviously in addition to the T&C's, this will make a world of difference in deciding whether or not to take the job.

[mates rates]

the DEC pay is AUD 180000-210000 INCLUSIVE of super 9% plus allowances.

[Dubya]

Matesrates..
where did you pluck those figures from....????
Memo from the company on 4th Dec says that they haven't decided on Terms and Conditions yet..
or are you just making it up?

[jetblues]

Dragun good questions for an interview, if you get one.

Dubya, I agree the figures are all rubbery. What we do know is that the VAustralia operation is most definitely separate to the VB mainline operation. Whilst VB guys may well be offered continuation of service etc etc the T&C's will be totally at the whim of the VAustralia Board.

Can we expect a similar salary ratio % from E-Jet to B737 to B777 I do not think so. We will all know come Jan08 I guess.

Good luck.

[Watchdog]

Dubya,
those rates were stated by the chap from VA that rang applicants over the last few days.
Not particularily good coin for having to live in expensive old Sydney!
If the $ on offer were $210K PLUS super it might be worth a move, but looking at it from a superannuation point of view only, 7 years in the desert will stack away more than would be 'saved' in OZ in double that time.
VA will probably get a few guys who have 'done their time' in the sandpit and other places and want to get home - which is probably just what they need to kick the operation off.

[jetblues]

Watchdog correct. I guess it's here-we-go-again with old money vs lifestyle argument all over again. Surely you can't even begin to compare life in the sandpit to life in OZ if family and friends are any part of the lifestyle wish list to you? Yes Sydney will be the initial base, but hey it's longhaul so a commute from anywhere is a possibility, beach house in Noosa maybe?

My hunch is that if you are a B777 type rated Captain and want to maintain your rank AND return to OZ you would want to be in the initial batch because the opportunity may well not be available again. I suspect VA are hedging their bets this way too?

If the Virgin ranks get split like QF and Jetstar I can assure you the smidgen of virgin flair and loyalty that remains will be washed away in one fowl sweep.

[MTOW]

Forgive my ignorance - (I've been away for a very long time) - but could someone run by us (or PM me if you'd prefer) the figures detailing what "180,000 including Superannuation" and "180,000 excluding Superannuation" mean? No such thing as Super where I am.

Thanks

[Vorsicht]

Australia has a mandatory 9% super contribution. The V Australia guy stated that the salary was going to be between 180 and 210k (Including Super contribution). So of the 180 approx 15k will go into super and which will bring the amount of taxable income to 165k. On 165k (assuming you have no deductions) you will pay 54600 in income tax. On top of this there is a medicare levy which will be around 2k. If you have kids and your wife doesn't work you will pay a little less tax, but that will give you an idea. So at the 180k level, all in, you will see around 110 k in your pay packet. The super is kept in a super fund of your choice which you will be able to access when you retire.

At the 210k level, with no deductions you will get just a touch over 120k in your paypacket.

The actual amount may vary significantly depending on whether you have other income, investments, deductions, your wife works etc etc, but this is a rough guide, taken straight from the australian tax office tax calculator.

V

[MTOW]

Thanks Vorsicht. Very clearly put.

[fearcampaign]

Hi All,

Would anyone be able to post the details of the Emirates Provident fund.My understanding is that you must stay in Emirates now for 5 years only to receive it and not 7 years as was the case.From what I have heard it is very lucrative.
I am happy if someone would like to P.M me the figures.
I am thinking it may be better to do a 5 or 7 year stint O/S and retire back to OZ.I may have to do another 20 years flying 900 hours plus with a LCC to get the same result.I am not keen to fly over 60 to an early death:{:{

I also hear around the grapevine that there may be temporary bases offered with Emirates in OZ or N.Z soon:O:O:O

With 250 aircraft on order they will need to dangle the carrot to get enough guys and gals.They could also shake a tree and wait for the pilots to fall out.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

FearCampaign,


'I am thinking it may be better to do a 5 or 7 year stint O/S and retire back to OZ.I may have to do another 20 years flying 900 hours plus with a LCC to get the same result.I am not keen to fly over 60 to an early death'

Well said. And you you will not have to pay for the privilege with paying for the rating, interview, simm ride etc etc.

You get access to your provident fund after 5 years but only 75% of it. 100% after 7 years.

Blue Foot

[MTOW]

From what I have heard it is very lucrative.I think you'll find that the only people saying that are the EK recruitment team.

[Watchdog]

The EK provident fund is no more lucrative than the usual super funds except that the growth isn't taxed at 15% as in OZ.
Punch the numbers into a financial calculator and see for yourself.

[OhSpareMe]

Growth(?) in a super fund in Australia is no longer taxed. Payouts from super to those who retire from the workforce, and are over 60, are now tax free.
However, a tax of 15% is applied to additional contributions made from a salary sacrifice arrangement.

[Dragun]

$165K gross for an international widebody captain? Can't be true.

Please tell me it's not true...

[Watchdog]

Ohspareme,
OZ super IS still taxed (you won't see it in your statement as the fund itself pays it)
From the ato website:
"You will be taxed on concessional contributions over the $50,000 cap at a rate of 31.5%. This is on top of the 15% tax paid by the fund. You can ask your super fund to release money to pay this excess contributions tax."
http://www.ato.gov.au/super/content.asp?doc=/content/00094534.htm&pc=001/007/131/006/001&mnu=&mfp=&st=&cy=1

[Roger Copy Ta]

Back on topic...

Whats the go with the cruise relief pilot? I assume that's just another name for S.O.?

I also had a missed call and voice message on Friday. Will be interesting to hear the offer.

Anyone have an interview date yet?

[transcontinentalcc]

Anyone know info on base/routes/layovers/training schedule for cabin crew as yet?

[Ramboflyer 1]

Also there is no perdiems thats another 10k per year from your pocket.........

[sinala1]

Also there is no perdiems thats another 10k per year from your pocket.........
What makes you say that? Mates rates said

the DEC pay is AUD 180000-210000 INCLUSIVE of super 9% plus allowances
which, to me says allowances On Top of the salary... the way I read it, if it there were no allowances mates rates would have said "inclusive of super AND allowances" rather than "inclusive of super Plus allowances"

Unless you know something we don't?

[MattBNE]

as I understand it, they are calling all the flight crew applicants and there are around 1000 of them. salary seems to be AUD180k to about AUD200k including super. seems as if one of the targets is Aussies wanting to come back to Godzone.

[Dragun]

Straight from the horse's mouth this morning...

Captain Salary $180-$210K including 9% super ($163,800 - $191,100 base)

Senior FO $110-$130K including 9% super ($100,100 - $118,300 base)

Cruise FO 60% of the higher Senior FO figure i.e. 60% of $130K ($78,000) including 9% super ($70,980 base)

Employment to be on 'individual contracts' - not an EBA. I clarified and asked "So we'll be employed on AWA's?' He said "No, you'll be on individual contracts"...?!?

Add 'overnights + meals' to the above figures. I asked what this figure would be expected to be generally per year, he didnt know.

Basing is Sydney

Training to be conducted in Sydney in a new B777-300ER simulator.

First destination to be LA but still unconfirmed at this stage.

Seven aircraft to be in operation by 2010.

Asked about progression, couldn't tell me cos he said they didn't know at this stage.

...and the big one...they are still unsure whether or not they will be charging for endorsements at all, whether up front or salary sacrifice.

He asked whether or not I would still be interested in progressing with the application given the above information. I said that it would be dependent on the endorsement costs and if I had to pay them, then no. Told him that I thought $100,000 base (at the lower end) for a wide body international FO was a little ridiculous. He didn't seem surprised, but I get the feeling this phone call was more market research than anything.

Recruitment process to begin from mid-January onwards and would include a psychometric assessment, simulator assessment and an intervew. Start dates in mid to late May.

[Aussie]

Not exactly living the high life with that $$$

Good luck!

[On Guard]

So what is the call for? Did they offer you an interview?

I'm waiting for them to call back.

[On Guard]

Can someone confirm, are they calling everyone? Or calling potential interviewees?

1000 calls seems a lot to make.

[MattBNE]

calling everyone - yeah, it does seem a lot of calls - maybe selling the benefits of working for them as well though

[mates rates]

I think they are sifting through the online applicants to see who is really interested in going further.So that will get rid of a few hundred applications then they will decide who they want to interview. Maybe they recorded the telephone calls to play them back and check the attitude of the recipients?

[Roger Copy Ta]

Missed my second call today, they always call while I'm flying!

Waiting for email now.

I indicated I wasn't willing to pay for endo, hope all you blokes are doing the same. I'm also still below the min requirements... interesting.

[Dragun]

I doubt they recorded anything. They are legally obliged to inform you that the call will be recorded which they didn't do.

They just said they were calling to give me some facts and ask if, based on that information, whether I was still interested in progressing with the application. I said at this stage yes, so he said he would be calling me regarding the next stage soon and expect it to between mid January to mid February.

[Friction Nut]

To those who have recieved calls, What hours do you have and what type of flying are you involved in now?

I'd be interested to know the make up of the people getting called.

[aero979]

Got a call from V and VB on the same day, sounds like interviews will be around the same time... emb 170/190 or 777... sounds like same pay rates.... which one to choose?? any advice?

[777Monkey]

I got a call too yesterday, i am short on the multi time by 100 hours! We can only wait and see what happens and what they do!

[Transition Layer]

Those pay rates are a f*cking joke!!!

I thought there was a pilot shortage?

[empacher48]

I got the call about an hour ago from VA, I have about 1200TT with 55 Multi. So they really haven't been looking at the applications and calling the most suitable candidates, but calling everyone.

The nice girl didn't have much information on pay rates or conditions for Cruise FOs, and she told me that up front. But did say interviews late Jan 08.

[Dragun]

Not sure why she didn't give you any info on cruise FO pay, the guy who called me told me straight up it would be 60% of $130K including super.

TL is right, the more I think about those pay rates, especially for 'senior FO', the more it seems like a disgrace.

[hongkongfooey]

So have I got this straight?????? At the lower end a skipper will be on less than his 737 brethren :confused: No wonder they have so many applicants :uhoh:
Are people really this desperate to come home ?

[gj18457]

In short yes.They would have made the pay so low to deter VB guys from coming over.

[BR715]

I also received a call yesterday 4200tt 2400 M.E and 500 jet sounds like the general gist of the call was to see wat people think of the conditions and if i was still interested in my application advancing to the next stage (being short listed) She couldn't tell me training costs or the pay for a S/O as she said it was still to be finalised and initial interviews would be in jan/feb 08:)

[Australia2]

Call today,

Dont need to come home that badly, thats for sure.

They are just testing the water at this stage, I'm sure.

Pilot shortage, not in Oz I am gathering; or will it become like up here, with an experienced expat in the LHS (fresh from EK/CX etc) and guys "building hours" for bugger all pay making up the rest of the crew?

Stand up for yourselves, paying for the rating is CRAZY in this environment.

Oz2

[bushy]

There's a pilot shortage, and they expect pilots to apply for a job that does not have defined T&C's?

[Ramboflyer 1]

Unfortunately there is only an F/O shortage , there is no Captain shortage.......

[Going Boeing]

Virgin are aware that the prospect of flying shiny new B777-300ER's is very attractive to a lot of younger pilots and is adjusting the salary to suit. If they look deeper into it they may rethink, ie long range flying across the Pacific is just about the most boring flying you can do especially if there is no career progression on to any other types/routes and LA would have to be the worst city in the US to have a slip - San Francisco and New York have character, LA has sleeze.

[greenslopes]

Thanks Boeing, Must say the more I look at V Oz, the less appeal it has.No career progression,paying for a bond,low salary(on a world scale), no I think I'll give J* my vote......looking forward to the 787

[MAX]

No career progression

How so? Wouldnt experienced F/O's would get a shot at the left seat with 7 aircraft by 2010 if they got in the first wave of recruits?

I suppose it may depend on whether they'll have a seniority system or just keep pushing old boys into the left seat.

7 Aircraft seems too many to just be doing LAX. Must be somewhere else in the plan.

Until someone gets an interview we wont know I suppose.

MAX:cool:

[MattBNE]

agree max and think this model for a startup airline will be quite different and the opportunities will be there for the taking. understand it to be very much merit based progression across the business. got a good name in other markets from a pax perspective and reckon it will only get bigger and better.

[On Guard]

Being a junior F/O candiate I can say that I would accept the pay in line with thoughts of quick progression to RH seat. I do feel salary is light but would be a good job.

I think they will get guys like me easily (and poss a few F/O's) but Capt's and F/O's they will struggle as they have a lot more options and experience.

I was told 120 postions for end May training. 3 a/c by end of year. Seems a lot of pilots for 3 a/c, I thought 6 crew per a/c was the usual = 60 odd?

[Going Boeing]

Max, by career progression, I meant the ability to move to another type to get some variety. Trans Pacific flying is extremely boring and after a few years, most would be looking for a change.

Each aircraft would be able to do 3 return services per week so a fleet of 7 aircraft would indicate a capability of 21 services per week - that leaves enough down time for "A" checks but not enough for heavy maintenance but with brand new aircraft, the heavy checks are a few years off so there would probably be additional aircraft by then. Hopefully, for the crews, better destinations than LAX are planned.

[And Then]

That is very bad pay. Help yourselves.

[Launch_code_Harry]

If they are doing LA they will probably use a 4 man crew (assumption - 1 Capt, 1 Senior FO & 2 junior FO's) for Flight & Duty limits @M.84.
The problem with this for the Junior FO's is that promotion to the RHS will be at half speed (twice as many junior FO's as Senior).
Unlike qf & j* where there is a defined path to a window seat in for the third crew member in the industrial instruments, given that V don't or won't tell T&C's it could be a long wait. Will crew be able to transfer to VB?
Worse 'Cruise' EFFO time is not given much credit by most operators. They all want to know actual "hand-on-stick" time.
If I was a manager, and I was a bastard, knowing there was a potential shortage looming I would want to employ the least qualified junior FO's I could get my hands on, knowing 'Cruise time' counts for nought, I could effectively 'trap' crew & reduce turnover at the bottom. DEC's & DEFO's may well be easier to find.
I know that sound harsh, cruel & cynical but I have seen this sought of thought process employed numerous times within this industry. For that, I am truly sorry.
Sorry to burst the bubble.

[Howard Hughes]

Being a junior F/O candiate I can say that I would accept the pay in line with thoughts of quick progression to RH seat.
Unless you have shedloads of experience I can't see that happening, not with at least 4/7ths of the pilots coming across from VB all with considerably more experience!

I wouldn't be counting on that, it may happen, but when is anybody's guess at the moment!
7 Aircraft seems too many to just be doing LAX. Must be somewhere else in the plan.
If you check the recruitment website, they do ask where you would like to be based, some interesting cities on there, not just SYD & LAX!:eek:

[SilverSleuth]

Wouldn't get to excited going in as a fo.
It is openly being discussed how to get the most out of all here.
That being VB is struggling to crew flights and get experienced people to take commands on EMB etc. Looking more and more like they may incorporate all. I.E to get a command on the 777 you must have 2000 or 3000 hours jet command and therefore that opportunity will be given on EMBs etc while the experienced 737 guys move to left seat 777.

[Dragun]

Howard

If you check the recruitment website, they do ask where you would like to be based, some interesting cities on there, not just SYD & LAX!

Where is that on the site? Can't seem to find it anywhere.

Cheers

[MAX]

If you check the recruitment website, they do ask where you would like to be based, some interesting cities on there, not just SYD & LAX!

I think Howard may be confusing 'preferred recruitment ports' with an actual basing.

MAX:cool:

[Wiley]

If Oz aviation history is anything to go by, they'll be killed in the rush with applicants - and starters. Maybe not the ones they'd really like to get, but bums to fill all required seats will be found, and without too much trouble.

I'd be guessing this first call phase is a very broard scattergun approach to see how many of the (I'd be guessing many) names they have on their list can actually answer a phone - and how many of those who do so don't actually hang up in their ear the moment they hear the 180k-210k Clayton's offer. (Did anyone receive an actual pay figure? All I heard was that they "were thinking" that the salary would be somewhere in the 180 to 210 range.)

It would need to be 210 and not 180 to attract many people from the Sandpit, and even 210 wouldn't be enough to attract any but a very, very few with school-age children.

The big imponderable remains - (and, I suspect, VOz are banking on this one being answered by enough in their favour): how many are willing to cop a pay cut (and how big a pay cut) to get their families back to Ruddsville?

The way the Sandpit and the Dirham are going lately, I suspect the answer might well be "enough".

[Capt Fathom]

I don't see what all the fuss is about?

SYD-LAX.

It's a no-brainer. Take-off, Cruise, Land.

How hard can it be? :E

Show me the money!

[greenslopes]

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr lack of money, and thats why all the kerfuffle!

[Howard Hughes]

I think Howard may be confusing 'preferred recruitment ports' with an actual basing.
Oops my mistake, note to self...
READ THE FINE PRINT!;)
It's a no-brainer. Take-off, Cruise, Land.
You forgot the important one, divert on overtime!;)

[globallocal]

Also rumor has it that part of the virgin group conditions is that they take half of the crews from VB. 10 per A/C so 5 have to come from VB.
Fairly good source.
anyone else heard this?
Haven't had a phone call as yet.
How much are they asking for the End?
Rishworth were selling it for $27kNZ for that air india job. didn't take that offer as well!!

GL

[Howard Hughes]

Actually I think the memorandum says 4/7ths from VB!

From the document:At least 4/7ths of the complement of Captains will be recruited exclusively from Captains wthin Virgin Blue
The next line basically says that the remaining 3/7ths can be made up from Captains from both internal and external channels! (but I can't be bothered typing it in full!;) )

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Capt Basil Brush]

Apparently the AFAP are having problems getting V A to return their phone calls.

It's hardly surprising that V A don't want to discuss the salary package - or even negotiate a salary package.

[mates rates]

I hear the aircraft utilisation will be SYD-LAX-SYD followed by SYD-PER-SYD that will fully utilise 3 aircraft initially.

[forgetabowdit]

Jetstar's BN - SY A330 doesnt pull up at the Domestic terminal in Syd either... Sorry :oh:

[SilverSleuth]

Sorry to tell you DUBYA, what mates rate said isnt a porkie at all. 30% of the initial flying will be syd-per-syd in between the LAs. And thats a fact!!
terminal no dramas as its not planned to go to the domestic terminal. And thats a fact also.
May wanna check on those sources buddy :cool:

[SilverSleuth]

Well there is a factual response...... almost as factual as your first post.......BUDDY !
(p.s you still need to check your sources.....!) :D

[Fluke]

Contacts in Virgin Atlantic say the plan is to operate LHR-DXB-PER. When I used to fly with Compass we flew domestic sectors to the international terminal in Perth. So I can not see why a V Australia turn around to Perth from Sydney is out of the question?:suspect:

[wirgin blew]

What do people think of the possibility that V may one day not just be flying to LAX but into a few asian cities that would link up with VA. Places such as Hong Kong, Shanghai, Singapore, Tokyo, etc.
V - Aust might start up on one route but given the demand there is always the possibility of going elsewhere.

[Howard Hughes]

An airline can not survive with only one route, in case that market takes a dive! It makes sense that V would be looking to expand and tie up with VA!:ok:

[transcontinentalcc]

Shanghai is a strong possibility to meet up with VS, same as MEL-DXB to do the same thing.

Cabin crew structure looks like an IFM (inflight manager), IFS (inflight supervisor) then IFC (inflight crew) very similar to QF long haul, on 5 year contracts (don't know how that will be possible when the IR lawws are scrapped). I'd say if the aircraft is utilised on SYD-PER then LAX layovers will be 24 hours max and not on the same turnaround schedule as QF 744s?

Just a thought.

[Howard Hughes]

Indidvidual contracts were around well before work choices and AWA's, I suspect they will still be around after...:ok:

[F.QII]

Makes sence the dubai oz link up,currently only emirates and etihad opperating on the direct route,and the flights are always chockers,as anybody trying to get back to oz over christmas will know!
Also perth to joberg or the cape is a very very busy and lucrative route with half of south africa living in perth. Got the call as well,money was a little on the light side I thought especially if one has to live in sydney,but then again with inflation running at 18-20% a year in dubai im hardly rolling around in cash anyway.......:uhoh:
So what happens next,can we expect interviewing towards the end of Jan or were they just fishing for interest levels.................?

[Hey Driver]

It’s interesting that VOZ is fishing with no bait. Fine to offer low pay rates if the lifestyle is better than what else is on offer. Without indicating minimum days off at home, annual leave, roster structure and all the rest that goes with a long haul operation it’s hard to make a judgment. Remember VOZ is separate to VB and the conditions, as they are, do not have to be the same. SYD LAX is only the start, mix some domestic and regional operations without some solid roster control life could be pretty poor. It should be obvious that if the conditions are not similar to Jet* when the 78’s start arriving training costs will be significant.

Also for the VOZ guys, one month notice for an interview? Even if you come to my door more than likely I’ll be off in some other lovely part of the world.:hmm:

[Friction Nut]

If anyone has the recruitment dept phone number could you PM it to me. Unless anyone knows whether or not they are still calling around. I recieved a call over a week ago which went to voicemail and the person on the other end said someone would call over the next few days. Over a week has passed without a call or email. I would like to hear all the info first hand.


Not that I dont trust anything thats on here of course. :ooh:

[FO Cokebottle]

:rolleyes:
Guys,
Received a call from the lady at Voz whilst on my block days off.
It was a fishing call. Wanted to confirm what position I was applying for (Senior F/O), she stated the position was to be based in SYD. Then went on to ask what jet types and time I have (5000TT with 2000+widebody jet FO time and 600ME Command).
Then came the topic of renummeration: She was very light on info, prefering to hear what T & C's I am currently on.
In short, I declined to progress the application further due mainly to the very quick number crunch over taxation.
In addition, I stated that it was an insult to require crews, with the experience that they require, to pay for training. I answered NO in the online application.
She then thanked me for my honesty?!?!?!?......go figure :ooh:

[Kiwiconehead]

Indidvidual contracts were around well before work choices and AWA's

AWAs were around long before Workchoices as well.

[greenslopes]

Well done Cokebottle!
No-one need pay for an endorsement in these times(nor should salary sacrifice be employed to pay back the Co)
I just love the irony that every time they change the computing system at work they don't charge the employees who use the system an endorsing/training cost?
Is this the only industry where the employees are treated like muppets and made to pay for a system which ultimately makes the Co more money!?
Why is it if we share the costs we don't also share the profits?
It's logic Jim but not as we know it!

[The Hill]

good to hear coke bottle!! glad to know theres still some commonsense out there.

"Why is it if we share the costs we don't also share the profits?"


that would be an interesting point to bring up at the interveiw!!!!!!!!!!

[KaptinZZ]

FO Coke Bottle,

And I wouldn't trade Bangkok, along with its economical 'fringe benefits', for Sydney either. You're a smart man.

I was in BGK a couple of months back, but omitted to take your number with me. Should have emailed for it, but didn't ocur to me at the time.

I'll email you later and get the latest on one of the great cities of the world.

[On Guard]

Coke

Out of interest how did your current salary stack up against their offer?

Well done for your stance, unfortunately I am still at the bottom of the food chain and don't yet have the luxury of speaking my mind as such.

[meguro]

I also received a call yesterday but no number has been left to return their call. If someone knows it can they PM it to me as well.
It may be in this forum earlier but does anyone know the employemnt terms and conditions?
Regards:confused:

[bob_bowne]

There are a lot of Boeing 777 type rated Aussies overseas; in the hundreds. They generally have the better jobs and are quite well paid. The experience levels of the average Aussie expat. pilot is very high and the commanders are mostly between 45 years of age and upward. Most are considered an asset by their airline.

Any 777 Captain I have talked to has applied to Jet Star and V Australia as a fishing exercise and will make a decision based on terms and conditions. Only those who still have a house or family in Sydney are more enthusiastic.

Jet Star seems to have already approached the Instant Captains they want and these guys are playing the game and will pop their own requirements fairly late in the process. So some turmoil will occur in Jet Star’s selection process.

[lil_blueberry]

I had the call yesterday and would say that it was pretty vague other than a guesstimate of wages on there part with nothing concrete for them to say........ I couldn't even be bothered asking any decent questions cause i knew the answer....."Oh i couldn't tell you that cause they haven't worked it out yet"
.... I assume that paying/bonding for the type rating will further reduce the pay.
Cruise F/O = $75,000 before allowances and that included super! ..... barely acceptable (especially living in Sydney) sitting on a plane doing 16hrs of not much....... with allowances probably take 90k Max
I tell you what.... I am gonna stick it with Qantaslink and here's my reasons:
* Not as boring sorties.
* Home for the partner and kids most nights.....
* with some over time and after allowances you take about 60 - 65K pa....... (only about 20k max difference for the boring as pacific/oceanic flying, with allowances)
* Better roster ........
* Possible chance of movement onto other Qantas group of companies.........More progression in Q.Link even though it ain't a jet.
If your gonna call around to find People of the industry just walk into the newly graduated CPL holders class and take them, whats with the see what people will take survey, surely something fishy?
:ugh:

[TAC inop.]

I'm sure you have valid reasons for your decission 'Blue', good call to evaluate it in terms that suit you and your situation, but why the sling at V ? If you dont want it, cool, but how did they lead you on ? There was nothing on the site about wages....so if you expected more, then its your bad, wouldn't you say?
Plus, dude, they are paying more for a junior FO than you are currently getting...thus, the 'Scab' label just doesnt fit, really, now does it.

[KaptinZZ]

lil blueberry, my friend, you will win no support for any cause by throwing around phrases like "scabs of the industry".

By definition a scab is a strike breaker, and anybody who takes a job for less than what you believe reasonable is not a scab. That is the fact of the matter.

Disillusioned you may be, but don't throw emotions into any argument/ discussion, because you'll be cut down so fast you won't see it happen, and anything you say will be treated with indifference, even scorn, or ignored completely.

We've all been through times when we feel the world is agin us, but a true mark of character is how you handle those situations; currently you're not doing too well.

Keep to the facts and you will not only win arguments, but friends.

[fumes]

This thread has become quite lengthy, but has migrated from being an informative, factual message board to a degenerated sounding board for personal frustration and dissapointment.

VOz is a new company, who's full potential (and acceptance by the commuter) is not yet known - to anyone, including themselves. It does, however, offer some valid opportunities for a great number of pilots. If the conditions don't meet your expectations, aren't as good as your current COS, or aren't 'on par' with other companies, then simply don't apply. Who is forcing you. You are no worse off than 6 months ago when VOz didn't exist.

I recall a lot of angst wrt T & Cs when VB commenced operations, yet it proved to be a very good company to work for for many people I know in the industry. I have no doubt VOz will be the same.

It has been said many times, including within this thread, many things make up a 'good' job, and job satisfaction. Let's keep things real, many people out there are actually doing it tough...

Anyone looking towards VOz who is wrapped up in SYD-LAX, doesn't seem to be being very objective, more routes will surely follow.

The pay isn't drastically different to QF, and opportunities in a vibrant, up and coming airline may definately exist. Take it for what it is, things will only improve in the company I'm sure. If it isn't for you, fine. Any chance we can keep this thread a productive one?

[lil_blueberry]

maybe the wrong word at the typing of that, I apologize to those who may have shed a tear


but, I am doing quite well if your really concerned,

but other than that pprune has alot of emotion in it...... but i agree facts are nice when you find em...........

So what would you call the V.Oz ring around then? Not a fact finding mission/market research?

My mate definitely doesn't have minimums for V.B/RPT and they rang him......

your view?

[Goofyfoot]

Well said Fumes.The thread desperately needed some one with a little common sense and emotions intact.

[fumes]

My view, as VOz HR apparently stated, short listing. Most of the requirements are desireable, and I'm sure some flex either way will be exercised. Perhaps not so much 'how low can we go with pay ', but 'this is the pay, are you still interested'.

I'm sure they will get enough suitable candidates happy with the COS. Some negotiation with C & T targeted candidates perhaps, but the rest will 'fall' into place for them without to much doubt.

The upshot is, as is a common message from Virgin applicants, the interview is a final check, they interview pretty much the same numbar as they need. Saves a lot of people's time (and money) being wasted, including their own (which isn't an unrealistic approach I don't think).

If you are keen on the job, and are competitive enough against the other applicants, it should all fall into place.

Just my opinion, but none of us are 'owed' anything. 80K base for an Aus based S/O, 110K for F/O for year 1 competes with CX and QF, who knows what increments, bonus, basings (brissy maybe), progression timeframe or profit share will exist with VOz down the track.......and no pressure to move overseas....not too below par.

[Gnadenburg]

The pay isn't drastically different to QF


&


competes with CX and QF

&

not too below par.


Things get worst as your spin progresses Fumes.

The money is crap. But maybe, just maybe, the job is a good one.

[MattBNE]

fumes and blueberry - interesting perspective. I don't reckon they're fishing at all - can't think of another player that is taking the time to call applicants (and not charge an application fee either, just quietly). VB did turn out to be an OK place to play and there has to be something said for the working environment. Sure across the pacific isn't a thrill a minute, but surely others will follow. These guys have proven astute in the past and seem keen to build a solid business, staffed with the right people. No-one ever forces us to apply or even express an interest, do they?

[Dragun]

I don't really think it's a matter of not applying if you don't want the job, more a matter of taking the job once the T&C's have been outlined - which hasn't happened yet.

The first phone call was definitely more for market research. There is no harm in going to the interview, finding out FACTS and THEN making a decision.

Pretty much everything to date is speculation and brackets with no formal decision on T&C's been made.

However, there will have to be some significant improvement in dollars (or a fantastic roster) for V Australia to get the people they're looking for.

[anothershittynappy]

Chicken or the egg. You cannot knock back a job until it has been offered to you. When you find out the T & C if they suit take it if they don't, leave it.

[loveflying737]

MonsterC01 - these gentlemen have not been employed as line pilots. The positions to which they have been appointed required more than a type rating. Whilst there are certainly many highly qualified pilot managers out there, both these gentlemen certainly rank with the best.

They may not be born and bred Australians but both love and have embraced your country. As they and their families obviously waant to enjoy what Australia has to offer they arewilling to pay the taxes necessary to maintain that infrastructure. Whilst the nett salary may not be what they could earn on a contract I have no doubt that neither of them has sold themselves for a pittance given that they were probably earning in the region of A$280 000 pa (gross) in SAA.

Give them a chance - I am sure that everyone that meets them will not only enjoy wirking with them but will understand why they were employed

[loveflying737]

[QUOTE]I know V Australia knocked this bloke back in favour of the (non rated?) South African. The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man to have been found to be a better option than the Australian they knocked back... or cheaper.

Wiley - It is disappointing that you chose to highlight the second of your two listed options.

Whilst there are certainly a number of highly qualified, capable management pilots out there, at the time VAustralia chose the person they found best suited to the job.

You certainly would have been more correct to highlight "The South African must be one seriously well qualified and incredibly talented man".

I am sure that a BSC / Bsc (Hons) / MBA / 29 years flying for a national carrier / considerable line/training and management experience on both Boeing and Airbus (old and NG) / being an integral part of the team that introduced the A340 into SAA's operation and being extremely well respected and liked by both his colleagues and many others from all fields of aviation, would qualify this statement.

He has been resident in Australia for some time and has been commuting from SA to his base in Perth. He either has or shortly will obtain his Australian citizenship.

The gross SAA salary for a person of his position would have been in the region of A$280 000 so it is unlikely that he would have sold himself short. He is obviously happy to pay the taxes necessary to sustain the lifestyle offered by Australia rather than live in the dessert or elsewhere that does not offer the same opportunity.

Give him a break / get to meet him you'll be pleasantly surprised

[loveflying737]

gj18457 - I am sure that VAustralia has a Human Resources department that listed the necessary criteria in order of importance. I am also sure that being an Australian Citizen / Resident and holding an Australian licence heads up this list.

This department (in which neither of the SA management pilots is involved) would then surely compile a list of pilots to be interviewed.

Australian citizens / residents holding Australian ATP licences who are B777 rated, or hold other suitable ratings would certainly be what the company would be looking for. If these pilots are happy to come back from the dessert or wherever else they find themselves and are prepared to make the sacrifice of paying the taxes needed to sustain the Australian lifestyle, I have no doubt that they will be given the jobs.

If it is expected that VAustralia should pay a gross salary which will allow them to nett what they currently do it is unlikely that the company will be able to mee these expectations. The company will then be forced to go on down the list.

If employing South Africans is what is necessary to fill the positions, surely this decision will be made by all concerned and not just two individuals.

In closing - both these gentlemen are highly intelligent and I am sure understand the sensitivities involved. It is unlikely that they would put themselves into a position where they could be accused of nepotism.

I believe that you can rest assured that they want what is best for the company - not their colleagues that are planning to move to Australia.

[Blue Ruin]

I believe that you can rest assured that they want what is best for the company - not their colleagues that are planning to move to Australia.


So how many of their colleagues are planning on moving to Australia?

[loveflying737]

So how many of their colleagues are planning on moving to Australia

Who knows - I am sure they don't. As many as are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to emmigrate.

One could ask how many doctors, nurses, electricians, plumbers / English / New Zealanders / Greeks / Chinese are planning on moving to Australia.

The authorities will allow in those they feel can be of value to the country.

[neville_nobody]

80K base for an Aus based S/O, 110K for F/O for year 1 competes with CX and QF

Really? :hmm:

Not to sure how you figure that out. The Virgin wage would want to go up pretty rapidly if it were to remain 'competitive'.

[TAC inop.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but obtaining the right to live and work in Australia isnt such an easy excercise if you are not Australian. For Kiwis and Brits maybe the task is a little easier, but otherwise, its a hell of a paper-chase. Employers must sponsor, proving that the special skills are not avaliable in Oz.
Being an Aussie, married to a Frog, believe me it wasn't so simple to obtain this type of visa for her. Not even Marriage is an 'automatic right' to live and work in Oz.
Thus, to conclude, its my belief that it will have to be crew jobs for Aussies first....unless they base OS of course.

[jetblues]

"Who knows - I am sure they don't. As many as are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to emmigrate."


Geez what a crock of s@%t. If it is such a sacrifice to move to Australia and take jobs from all the well qualified and experienced Aussie crews - then don't do it. I think what you really want to say is - what a great opportunity to get me and my mates a widebody gig based in the best country in the world. By all means if you are qualified and we are short on crews come on down, just be honest mate.

It would be nice to see all current VB drivers given the first opportunity on the B777. If you dig a little there is a multitude of experience in the VB ranks.

It never ceases to amaze me what management can get away with under the financial guise of "start up operation seeking competitive edge".

How do you engage your workforce, be honest and offer genuine opportunities. The payback for this in the long run is far greater than any short term gains to save a quick buck now. And that is a fact.

[loveflying737]

Geez what a crock of s@%t. If it is such a sacrifice to move to Australia and take jobs from all the well qualified and experienced Aussie crews - then don't do it. I think what you really want to say is - what a great opportunity to get me and my mates a widebody gig based in the best country in the world. By all means if you are qualified and we are short on crews come on down, just be honest mate

Jetblues - Please read the post again - no-one said it is a sacrifice to move to Australia. We all know what a great country it is. The sacrifice comes in leaving behind everything one has built up, in the case of older guys a lot more than a younger person. You leave behind family, friends and in many cases an established career. It is not something one does just because you know Aussie is a great country, the reasons are far more complex. If you have never had to make the decision it is hard to understand.

To be honest - many people are sceptical about SAs future, they are worried because personal safety is at risk daily, the infrastructure in the country is detriorating rapidly, the value of the currency is volatile. They need to move to a place where they are offered the privilege of a safe environment in which to live, a sound infrastructure and a realitively stable currency.

Australia has an immigration policy and no-one is going to bypass the system. There are jobs available and if they are offered to pilots from other countries because the Australian pilots don't want them for whatever reason, these pilots are probably going to accept them.

The only reason any Australian company would offer the jobs to non Austalian citizens / residents is if there are not enough suitable Australian pilots who apply for the positions. Now if the Australian pilots are loathe to pay the tax required to sustain their beautiful country then that is their prerogative, please don't hack the pilots are willing to accept the salaries offered. From the figures being bandied about the salaries that will be offered by VA do not seem too bad. I have many friends in Australia who live very well on a lot less.

I understand that there is an agreement in place which does give the VB pilots first bite at the apple so that issue can surely be laid to rest.

Bottom line if Australian pilots with the skills won't work for the salaries being offered, the companies will look elsewhere to find the skills required.
I believe that this practice is common in most countries and is followed by most companies.

Its called globalisation mate.

[MTOW]

loveflying737, if those two blokes are as good at their jobs as you are at creating positive (some might call it syphocantic) spin, they must be very, VERY good indeed, and VOz are very, very lucky to have them. (“As many as are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to emmigrate.” From SA to Oz? Jo’burg to Sydney? Give me a break!) If you’re a Safa, in writing such ‘suck up’ posts, you’ve badly misunderstood the Oz psyche, I’m afraid. If you’re an Oz, the country has changed more than I thought it had since I’ve been away.

I heard on the grapevine that there would be no staff travel provisions in the VOz contract – not even on VOz flights. If that’s true, and since VBlue is a separate company, I’m surmising there’ll definitely be no staff travel deal for VOz staff on VBlue, which would make commuting a bit expensive and take the shine off an already uninspiring salary package. Still, three or four full fare return flights a month between Brisbane and Sydney would probably still work out considerably cheaper than packing up and buying a house in Sydney.

[sinala1]

I heard on the grapevine that there would be no staff travel provisions in the VOz contract – not even on VOz flights. If that’s true, and since VBlue is a separate company, I’m surmising there’ll definitely be no staff travel deal for VOz staff on VBlue, which would make commuting a bit expensive and take the shine off an already uninspiring salary package. Still, three or four full fare return flights a month between Brisbane and Sydney would probably still work out considerably cheaper than packing up and buying a house in Sydney.
Not sure about the Tech Crew, but Cabin Crew have been told that as V Oz is part of the Virgin Blue Group of Airlines, service continuity and Leave will all transfer across - so I daresay, at least for those transferring directly from VB, staff travel will be the same - and will most likely end up including V Oz as well.

[MTOW]

Let's hope what you've heard is right, sinala1, or that what applies to the cabin crew will apply to the pilots as well.

[sinala1]

MTOW as far as the service continuity and leave transfer is concerned, we have that in writing - so thats a good start at least...

[greenslopes]

Nope for techcrewthe leave neededto be acquited!?

[Hey Driver]

Some Guys are sugesting the VOZ pay is not too different to QF and others. If you look at the Captains pay, where most would like to eventualy progress, things get alot different. On the QF 744 Captains are making in the very high 300K, Check and Training are over 400k. It would be intesting to know what their 330 drivers are grossing.

It would be reasonable to give some facts and not just post wishfull propaganda.:ok:

[Going Boeing]

On the QF 744 Captains are making in the very high 300K,

Wrong, I didn't even get to "very high 200K" on my last Group Certificate. Your figures are what Scrotum Face releases to the media and don't reflect reality.

It would be reasonable to give some facts and not just post wishfull propaganda.

[jetblues]

If you look at the E-Jet vs B737NG vs B777 salary ratio comparison then the base for a B777 should be a minimum of $210k. You would need to then add super, allowances etc etc. I accept that the B777 is a separate company and hence can in reality offer what ever salary is required to fill the seats.

Jan/Feb interviews should cough up some realistic and accurate figures. Until then it is all mere speculation.

[Hey Driver]

:bored: Thanks Going Boeing, I stand corrected. I can only comment on the figures passed on to me. The QF 744 Captains pay seems to be between @260K up to @400K for a Senior Check Captain all inclusive. I was unaware of the large difference in gross pay for pilots on the same fleet in QF.

PS: That puts GD a little under @30 times the average 744 Capts gross.

[F.QII]

Anybody invited to interview yet?,if they are planning for end jan/early feb interviews then they will need to let people know fairly soon!

[On Guard]

Calls mid to late Jan I was told.

[Jet Man]

I was told calls early Jan for interviews late Jan.

[Wiley]

I suspect there'll be quite a few pilots* out there who are hoping VOz will send any invitations for interview by email rather than hope to catch said pilots* at home, as they did with the original fishing expedition phone calls.

(* Pilots, (particularly B777 pilots), have this funny habit of being away from home for quite long periods of time WORKING - and not everyone has a living, breathing answering machine at home to field his phone calls.)

[Howard Hughes]

So no 'Global roaming' then?;)

[Hey Driver]

You could also pass on the company sat phone address so they can call you on your the next 14 hour flight :rolleyes: and then you can call crewing to ask for time off at short notice to attend the interview :ugh:True "Global roaming"!!!

[Wiley]

Global roaming doesn't work too well with the phone (mandatorily) off when I'm flying, which is what I do for most of time when I'm away, Howard.

Like the idea of asking my present employer to forward the call from VOz on their sat. phone!!:)

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Heard the response was overwhelming , the interview preference will be 777 type rated , Sydney locals , and possibbly crew the entire fleet from outside without paying for any ratings....

pay should then be 180K

[fumes]

Does this information apply only to Captains, or F/Os as well?

[jetblues]

From what I hear the only response that was overwhelming was "geez that is lousy pay" however I will procede until I see/hear the facts on the renumeration package. I hear most applicants wished to proceed - at this stage - awaiting some serious info on the package. Then if the current offer is true, watch the handbrake come on to a vast majority of applications, type rated in particular.

[Capt Coco]

Wow scooter are you sure there are 70ish Aussie(sorry Sydney siders) F/O's, cruise F/O's.....B777 endoresed out there ready to live in Sydney on the money they are saying over the phone!?!?!!?
Some Capt maybe, but then again........!?!?!?!?!

[jetblues]

I heard from a mate in EK last night who said there had been very little real interest from within the sandpit.....time will tell?

[F.QII]

Anybody been given an interview date yet?

[Friction Nut]

Nothing heard... For apparent interviews late jan, early feb they're cutting it a bit fine are'nt they??

[Higs]

interesting to read the other day that they dont yet have the rights that they require for a start. Also with the number of applicants I would think that they can push the "employment" date back a bit due to minimal training reqd.

[Miles to go]

Read post #215 for an accurate description of the VA Flight Standards Mgr.
* Excellent manager
* Smart as a whip
* Nice bloke - to everyone, not just his peers, and;
* Non-judgemental - even to scabby sorts

[Capt Coco]

Hey Friction N, they only just advertised for B777 SIM instructors in the papers this week. I guess they think that they might need a couple of instructors first before the guys/girls start turning up to do their endorsements.....in....when.....May they reckon!!! Unless the first couple of courses are doing endorsements overseas somewhere and not at the new sim center in Sydney.

[Howard Hughes]

I think you will find that's Alteon Capt Coco!

[Friction Nut]

So, from my assumptions, the sim centre in Sydney, that VA will be utilisng is going to be operated by Alteon. Anyone with any more info on this???

Located in Silverwater, and much cheaper rent than at Mascot I'm guessing.

From earlier reports, calls were supposed to be early Jan for interviews early feb..

I guess for another 2 days its still early jan eh. :hmm:

[MTOW]

Regarding the supposed interview dates of late January (as I was told when they called me): I understand that it is a recruiting company and not Virgin Australia that is handling applications and interviews. If that's so, let's hope someone at Virgin have given them the clue that many of their potential applicants will require (sometimes quite) a bit of lead time to be able to make themselves available on a certain day or days since little things like a roster can intrude.

If they are going to be interviewing in late January, I'd say they've already lost quite a few potential applicants who'd find it very difficult to make themselves available at such short notice - particularly long haul pilots, who can be away on a trip for more than a week.

Even if the interviews are to be in February, many if not most will already be locked into their February roster.

[Friction Nut]

- particularly long haul pilots

Are there many current long haul pilots seriously looking into this??

And lets also hope that the recruitment agency looking after shortlisting of applicants for interviews have a clue as to what a good pilot applicant looks like on paper. Surely they are not going to interview all those who they called over the 2-3 week period.

:suspect: