V Australia-Tell me it aint true! (Merged Thread)

[MTOW]

The Seth Effricans wanting to get into Ozmate angle has been discussed here at length some time ago - and apart from them, I think it's safe to assume they'll score a handful of Australian 777-endorsed pilots who will be willing to come home whatever pittance is on offer.

I'd be very interested to hear how the regulating authorities on both sides of the Pacific will react if VOz cranks up an operation with no pilots who have extensive 777 and ETOPS experience.

To repeat my earlier comment: if they stick to the timetable they quoted in their teaser phone-out, I think they'll get an awful lot of "I'd love to attend, but I can't on that day" replies.

[Sushi Muncher]

The lomger it drags on, the fewer takers they will get I predict. There are also 767 guys out there with ETOPS time too!

[7x7]

Anyone else getting the feeling that VOz' desired timline might be slipping?

[Asianlonghaul]

Hi I guys I am an experienced Boeing Long Haul pilot flying overseas. I have an Oz Passport and ATPL and would like to return to Sydney one day, so I had a look at the V Australia web site ( http://www.vaustralia.com.au/jobs/ ) and it said "Applications for Pilots close 14 December 2007". Amazing considering the Airline does not start up until Nov 2008! Anyone any more info on this?
Thanks:ugh:

[loveflying737]

Does anyone know anything about the flight ops management team? Anyone worked with them before? e.g what do u know about Manager Flight Standards, (other than the fact he wants to fly with his wife)? Where he's from, what he's like, etc. Same for the rest of the 'team'.


Shiftpattern - had you ended your post after the second ? it would have posed some valid questions.

Pity you had to reveal that you might just have an issue (or two) by becoming personal. If you know that the person in question has a wife that flies you obviously have access to all the information you really need and were just looking for an opportunity to make a statement. Do yourself a favour - if it is dirt you are looking for - you are barking up the wrong tree. Both the person in question and his wife are well liked and highly respected by most the people they have worked with. I believe she is still flying in SA so him flying with her can hardly be high on their list of priorities.

My earlier post (which you obviously have not read) gave you most of the detail you needed regarding the Manager Flight Standards. Read post #215. Once again you will note that there is no dirt to be found. I have to question why you chose to single out one particular member of the management team? Me thinks you have an issue.

The DFO is also a South African who is highly regarded not just in South Africa but internationally. He is highly qualified and very experienced, is well liked and has held many high level positions in his career.

Having done some research I believe that the VA management team has a diverse background. The company has employed some highly skilled and very capable people. I believe amongst the team there are some ex Cathay guys involved as well as the two South Africans. The CEO is reputed to be extremely dynamic.

I am just sorry that at present I don't have what they are looking for.

At the risk of being accused of being "sycophantic" I suggest that you might benefit by looking at the "bright side of life" rather than using irrelevant issues to make your statement.

[KRUSTY 34]

loveflying737.

Great to hear that VOZ have assembled such a wonderful team. God knows with the challenges faced by airlines today they will need them.

I suppose though, pilots and cabin crew would be a good idea also!?

[Andu]

January 16th. As of today, it is officially no longer "early January", so the "timline" (timeline?) would indeed seem to be slipping.

That's unless we've all missed out and the lucky chaps who've received their invitations for interview are keeping very strum.

[jetblues]

I hear initial phone calls are still happening. This would suggest the second calls may be some time off. I vaguely remember when VB were given the rights to fly to the USA they had until the end of 2008 to have the jets in the air or lose the rights. I suspect Tiger(SIA) hopes this happens.

[7x7]

and the lucky chaps who've received their invitations for interview are keeping very strum.Interesting use of words there, Andu. "Strum"... Germanic derivation, I believe, perhaps even Dutch. Could that be why no one here has had a reply yet? That the first tranche of pilots, who've already received their marching orders on time, all speak a Dutch/Germanic language... like Afrikaans?

[Icarus2001]

I think he/she means schtum or stumm rather than strum.:rolleyes:

[loveflying737]

I suppose though, pilots and cabin crew would be a good idea also!?
So what makes you think that there is no time line in place. Has it ever occurred to some of you that this might be the case and that the VA team might be happy with the progress they are making.

It really would be pointless employing s heap of crew and have them sitting around for months on full salaries (from a company point of view anyway)

As pilots we make such wonderful "lounge managers". Just because a company does not follow our time line does not mean that it is off track.

Although the PPrune posts would be fewer it might be better for us as pilots to do what we do best - fly aeroplanes - and leave other people to do their jobs. If and when it all goes pear shaped, by all means citicise, and boy can us "perfect beings" find things to criticse.

Just maybe everything is on track and VA is going to hold a wonderful launch to celebrate the start of operations on schedule. I wonder how many will have anything to say about that.

[gypsypilotwife]

The V Australia website does indeed state the closing date of 14th Dec for Pilot Applications.

But ...........once you click on "check out our current career opportunities" section, it indicates they are accepting Expressions of Interest - again. Any ideas what this means? :confused:

Thanks!

[Wiley]

loveflying737, apparently knowing the South African pilots who arer heading up the V Australia team as well as you apparently do, I can only assume you're very new to Australia (if you're living in the country at all). I hope I'm not causing offence whan I say that that it clashes with our national culture to be as in love with management as you seem to be, and may prove to be an impediment to repeat drinking partners should you continue to wear that love of yours so obviously on your sleeve.

That said, I can't recall anyone wailing about not being given a job yet. The complaints have been over the silence from V Australia over intervirew dates. I understand everyone who was called in December was told to expect interviews to be scheduled for sometime in January.

The fact is, if that time line is adhered to, many if not most potential candidates for a job as a pilot with V Australia will probably be unable to attend, unless the interview dates happen - by sheer luck - to co-incide with their days off. I'm sure V Australia would not want their candidates maintaining a dying Australian tradition of pulling a sickie to attend their interviews, as many will have to do should V Australia stick with their advertised interview dates of 'sometime in January'.

In my company, if I want particular days off, I need to know quite some time in advance, as bidding for January rosters closes early in December. I assume it would be very much the same for most pilots employed by any major airline.

Most pilots are required to give three months notice to their current employers. If V Australia want to get their first recruits in May - as they've apparently told some applicants - (which I agree sounds a bit early for already endorsed crew), they'll need to get a move on, as I'm assuming most people offered a job would want considerably more than 24 hours to consider making such a major decision. (There's a huge gulf for most of us between attending an interview and actually making the Big 'D' to put in our resignations and move halfway around the world to (in most cases) a job offering considerably less money.)

I know it will be for me.

[loveflying737]

Wiley - good to see you back on for(u)m.

I am not sure if you were concerned about me taking offence - rest assured none taken. I don't live in Aus (unfortunately). I also don't love management, at times there are many of them that I don't even like.

This however does not apply to the two gentlemen in question. I am not going to belabour the point but as you have realised they are both highly respected and certainly of the better management people I have dealt with in my years in aviation in SA.

Having been around for a while I suppose I have progressed from wingeing about things before they happen to waiting until there is something to winge about. Also being a Japie I suppose I have learnt not to sweat the small stuff. When you see things that most people find unimaginable, happening to people around you, having to make work related decisions at short notice does not head up one's list of problems.

I am sure that the HR department in VA is aware of the timeframe needed by most pilots and more especially by those making an international move. Their modus operandi has not differed much from that of the other international carriers with whom I have dealt in the past few months and these have been established national carriers.

Having made the decision to move I made all my arrangements and prepared myself and family to move should I receive short notice that I had been accepted by another company. I found that the advance preparation seriously reduced the stress of being given short notice of a commencement date. Fortunately I only had to give 30 days notice.

Good luck with your move and if you make it into VA and decide to work for the sum being offered be sure to get around to meeting the guys that have been discussed. They both enjoy a beer. Then let us know what you think. LF737

[loveflying737]

Interesting use of words there, Andu. "Strum"... Germanic derivation, I believe, perhaps even Dutch. Could that be why no one here has had a reply yet? That the first tranche of pilots, who've already received their marching orders on time, all speak a Dutch/Germanic language... like Afrikaans?


7x7 - In the Afrikaans "woordeboek" "strum" would appear between "struik" and "struweling". It is not there so I am sorry you will have to look for another group to suspect. "Stumm" does appear in the "worterbuch", but please let us not revive WW2

Don't fret - VA are not offering visas and there are very few SA pilots who hold the required qualifications, visas and an Aussie ATP licence. I must ask - as a PR visa holder, residing in Aussie with his family would an ex South African pilot still be considered to be a foreigner taking a job away from an Aussie or would you welcome him as a new migrant. The Aussies I have met would certainly go with the latter. LF737

[halas]

With the US economy starting to Tank, maybe they are reviewing their start-up date and destinations?

After all, when AN launched their international brand - into asia - it was badly judged and timed.

Just as the "Tiger" economies were hunted, caught, neutered and released licking their wounds, Ansett turns up with much hoorah and ignorance.

Couldn't have timed it worse if they had tried.

Food for thought though.

halas

[Tidbinbilla]

At the risk of locking this thread - can we get back on track?

This thread is not about the meaning or origin of words.

TID

[MTOW]

Sooooo... back on topic. Can I assume that, to date, no mere line driver has yet received an invitation for interview


...be it in English, Afrikaans or Strine?

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

cant help but think the timing is very poor.

there is a feeling over here in the US that things are about to go south bigtime.

[globallocal]

Heard a rumor from a friend (only a rumor) that some of his friends have got interview dates for SO positions. I did clarifying that maybe it was the first round of phone calls but he said they where given interview dates.
Can anyone shed some light? True or False.
Not after a SO slot but SFO, so maybe they are starting from the bottom?

[BR715]

do you know wat sort of hours/experience these people have?

[Dragun]

Just spoke to a guy who said his mate was called two days ago and told to expect an interview date in March. Wasn't given a date, just a month. :confused:

[60 & below]

Hi Guy's I also recieved a call asking if i was still interested in a DEC She indicated that if we were selected for an interview in March we would recieve a email late Feb with an interview date. Good luck to all that want or need the job.:ok:

[Best Rate]

...And good luck to all that are hoping for decent T's & C's :D

[evyjet]

Once again very poor first impression of the way things are being handled. Calling in Feb for interview dates in March!! Great!!.... Ask your current employer for the whole month of march off , "just in case".

I'm sure they will be accommodating to all of us regarding this, but I still think they should be able to plan ahead far better than this!

Evyjet

[MTOW]

Don't know what it's like for others out there, but notice to attend a late Feb interview this late in Jan would be guess and by God for me. It would all hinge on whether I happened to have scored those particular days off.

Maybe they purposely make it hard as part of the test to see how keen you are? I'm sure they wouldn't be happy to learn you'd pulled a sickie to make the interview, as some will have to do if they're that keen to attend.

[fumes]

For anybody who has been called recently and offered an actual interview date (or month as it may seem), are any of you 'non type rated' and 'not living in Sydney'?

[gypsypilotwife]

Hi all,

I'm an ex-Sydneysider (currently overseas) and very keen to return to put our two sons back into Aussie school.

Let's hope the V Oz interview calls (or emails) start coming this week eh?

Good luck everyone!
:ok:

[gondwalla]

I have interviews shortly. I was told a lot of SA guys are being considered. Also told they have a deal with EK not to take too many 777 drivers!:{

[jetblues]

For what it is worth VB Domestic crew received a letter from their COO last year saying interviews would be in Feb08. So there should be some action shortly.

[gondwalla]

Jetblues. Why are u VB guys allowing o/s 777 drivers to jump your seniority list and grab 777 commands?

[MTOW]

I was told a lot of SA guys are being considered.No surprises there when you look at VOz's top men.
Also told they have a deal with EK not to take too many 777 drivers!Possible, but very doubtful. (Airlines co-operating with each other on something other than price fixing?) If true, they're giving themselves three days in the Sandpit to pick the eyes out of the however many applicants they have from that part of the world. Three days would suggest quite a few have thrown their throbe and gutras into the ring.

What will be really interesting will be how many of the applicants from the 'not too many' EK 777 drivers chosen will be willing to walk away from the EK free housing, education allowance etc to return to a high tax environment on a not too startling salary. Big ask for someone with three kids at school - unless you just want out of Dubai at any cost.

What will be even more interesting to see is if a dozen or more 777 pilots leaving, many (if not most) of them C & T captains, will do anything to change EK management's insistance that basings or remote rosters are not an option.

[gondwalla]

MTOW...mate the other consideration is the US economy. I dont think V Oz will be too successful. There have been many airlines fail on the Pacific route.

[No Idea Either]

Gondwalla

Dont really have a say in it. We dont have an "official" seniority system and the rules for the introduction were outlined only as a MOU in the EBA. Its probably not even really enforceable, so I've been told. AND we, as a group, signed up for it when the crap EBA was voted up. We are already paying the price.

[jetblues]

Gondwalla your posts suggests we had a choice. If only that was true. Have a quick peak at the world airline crewing over the past 5-10 yrs. Qantas has spawned Jetstar, QF has contractors flying B747400F with QF callsigns out of SY and ML. VB has PB flying into the Pacific. So in Australasia this is not a new concept. You must accept that the VAustralia operation is a multi-billion dollar gamble with no guarantee of success. Do we all see it succeeding, yes but the stakes are high. So as far as the operation, including crewing is concerned it needed to be set up independently for the financial security of the VB Domestic operation.

Do we think that the vast majority of the seats in VAustralia will be filled with current VB pilots, the optimist says yes, the pessimist says no and the truth is that nobody knows. Time will tell.

[anthonyjohnson]

I have sat back and viewed this site for a while now not carrying to post just shaking my head but this all takes the cake I need to comment.;

AUSSIE AIRLINE PILOTS ARE OVERPAID LASY BUGGERS, ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS $$$

I HAVE NEVER MET ONE THAT WITHIN FIVE MINS DIDNT TELL ME HE WAS A PILOT (FIGJAM)

GET OVER YOURSELVES YOUR ARE PAID TOO MUCH FOR DOING A JOB THAT USED TO TAKE SKILL NOW THE COMPUTERS DO EVERYTHING.

BRING ON THE FULL AUTOPILOT DAYS WHERE EVERYTHING IS AUTOMATIC FLAPS, T/R THE LOT

WE ALL KNOW LESS PEOPLE WILL DIE BY RITCH FAT PILOTS WHO TAKE THERE JOB FOR GRANTED

END

[Launch_code_Harry]

Aircraft, is that you?
Don't forget the ignore button (http://www.pprune.org/forums/profile.php?do=editlist) in your user control panel.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

AJ,

Might be worth learning how to spell.

[ga_trojan]

Yeah those computers were working real well in BKK for Qantas and for BA in LHR now weren't they? Not to mention the Air Transat flight that did a glide approach on the RAT into some strip in the Atlantic.:rolleyes:

[Going Boeing]

I understand where you are coming from but it is always important to take a long term view. With the number of aircraft that have been ordered by Oz based airlines, the demand for pilots in Oz for the next 10 years is going to be huge. The profession as a whole (and your husbands long term career) will be significantly better if the pilot fraternity bonds together for consistent and equal terms and conditions. The "race to the bottom" that has been happening for the last 8 years or so has to stop and the only way to do it is for pilots to say NO. The jobs will still be there so the employers will have to offer better conditions. It may be an unpleasant thought for you to stay a few months longer in the Sandpit or Fragant Harbour but the few months pain will be rewarded by better conditions for many years to come. Overseas based pilots are very welcome back in Oz but please do not accept substandard conditions. GB

[Much Ado]

Thats an instant ban rite?moderators?

Instant and permanent:mad:

[74world]

G'day,

Just wondering if anyone has any info on the procedure for the interviews in V Australia?

Last week I've received a phone call.....so when could I expect a call for an interview?

Apparently V Australia will be interviewing worldwide, so that's good news for a lot of guys I presume :ok:

Cheers :cool:

[cunninglinguist]

Is it just me or is there some irony in the fact his initials where AJ :hmm:

Sounds just like him, begosh and begora :ugh:

[Wiley]

Going Boeing, if you think that any individual will do anything other than what suits their own individual best interests, you're in cloud cuckoo land. Refuse a job "for the good of the industry"? Do that and risk being trampled in the rush of others falling over themselves to take it.

I think you'll find some of us still around who thought we were doing something along those lines back in that year we dare not mention here.... and what happened then?

VOz's money men will try to tread that very fine line of making the package just attractive enough to attract just enough qualified starters without spending a dollar more than is necessary.

Someone came out with the (I think fanciful) suggestion that VOz has entered into some under the counter deal with Emirates not to take "too many" of their 777 pilots. Judging by the way Emirates management are currently going out of their way to piss their pilots off with utterly silly rostering, one could be forgiven for thinking they actually WANT as many of their pilots to apply for VOz as possible. (Get rid of all the Ozmates? Hmmm, I know there'd be more than a few in EK, particularly of one particular nationality, who'd welcome that, no matter how big the hole it might blow in their own collective foot.) I know of some people who as little as four weeks ago weren't interested in VOz, but have now applied, thanks only to the crazy rostering that has been recently introduced at EK.

[Going Boeing]

Hi Wiley, I know that I won't convince everyone but if enough come on board then there will be a difference. I am not encouraging guys to hold off accepting a job "for the good of the industry" - I'm asking them to do it for their own long term career. There are enough jobs on offer in Oz that the overseas based pilots don't have to fall over each other in the rush.

VOz's money men will try to tread that very fine line of making the package just attractive enough to attract just enough qualified starters without spending a dollar more than is necessary.
I totally agree.

[galdian]

GB
If the V Oz team have any connection/input with the VB management then a foregone conclusion! - last VB EBA over the line by just 3%.

As I've said before credit where due - the VB management judged the carrot pretty damned well.

On a different note - am I hallucinating or did I recently read that VB have FIRM orders for 3 aircraft and OPTIONS on another 7 which they will finally decide on EARLY NEXT YEAR??

So after payoffs to mates, connections, promises etc people are getting a sweat up over (maybe) a couple of external 777 commands in Oz??

Seems a bit odd IMHO.

[737opsguy]

On a different note - am I hallucinating or did I recently read that VB have FIRM orders for 3 aircraft and OPTIONS on another 7 which they will finally decide on EARLY NEXT YEAR??
This must be for 737s. There are a fair few Embraers coming in this year for VB and VOz has 7 orders for 777-300ERs with 6 options (either 3 this year or 2 and one in Jan 09).

Do we all see it succeeding, yes but the stakes are high. So as far as the operation, including crewing is concerned it needed to be set up independently for the financial security of the VB Domestic operation.

Do we think that the vast majority of the seats in VAustralia will be filled with current VB pilots, the optimist says yes, the pessimist says no and the truth is that nobody knows. Time will tell.

Word on the street is that almost all of the operational side of VOz is being fully segregated from the main VB business to ensure that if it fails, the VB operation is protected. There are appartently some areas of the business like Finance, IT, People (cough) that are being shared across both companies.

My understanding is that the EBA Deed says that for the first 7 VOz aircraft, 4 7ths of the Command slots are to be offered to VB Captains. So if you assume say 6 crew per aircraft, that's a total of 42 Command slots (for all the aircraft ordered so far - 18 Command slots for start of operations) of which 24 are offered to VB Captains.

How many current VB Captains are rated on the 777? One captain I spoke to the other day said there was only 2 in VB. So if you look at the start-up of VOz, surely they aren't going to be putting newly rated, non-type experienced Captains on the new aircraft for start-up. They'll bring in an experienced group of Captains for the start (further required since the top two in the company have never flown the 777 even in a Sim) and the VB Captains will get access to their slots "later" down the track once the first 3 aircraft are up and running.

Could be a little bit of a wait for the VB Captains to get a gurnsey yet me thinks...

[loveflying737]

I was told a lot of SA guys are being considered. No surprises there when you look at VOz's top men.

And who are you blaming for the SA pilots applying to Jetstar / VB / REX / Skippers / Skywest etc. or for that matter to Emirates / Cathay / BA

If there are SA pilots applying to VA (and there are very few who meet the requirements so there certainly wont be "a lot") they would be good guys, residents of Australia and suitably qualified. Are they supposed to be rejected just because they are recent immigrants.

If VA is to employ 42 Captains for the first aircraft (as has been suggested) and three (perhaps) of them are Australian Permanent Residents with Australian ATPs and heaps of wide body / long range experience who unfortunately happen to have recently immigrated to Australia is this such a big deal / wrong????

[MonsterC01]

Quote:

If VA is to employ 42 Captains for the first aircraft (as has been suggested) and three (perhaps) of them are Australian Permanent Residents with Australian ATPs and heaps of wide body / long range experience who unfortunately happen to have recently immigrated to Australia is this such a big deal / wrong????

Response:

YES!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

I thought we were cutting back on African immigration?

Social problems, riots etc.

And what? Now they will be flying our aircraft? :}

[galdian]

Gnads, Gnads, Gnads :=

Disappointed - you can do FAR, FAR better than that!! ;)

Trust you are not losing your touch as the years move on?? :eek:

Cheers
galdian

[loveflying737]

If VA is to employ 42 Captains for the first aircraft (as has been suggested) and three (perhaps) of them are Australian Permanent Residents with Australian ATPs and heaps of wide body / long range experience who unfortunately happen to have recently immigrated to Australia is this such a big deal / wrong????

Response:

YES!!!!
Well Monster that was a well considered post - so the government may allow the SA pilots to immigrate to Australia but they should be prevented from working there - mmm I think I am missing something. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on your response.

Gnadenburg - that post does not even warrant a response and probably came close to being censored

[KRUSTY 34]

OK.

So the VOZ business will be quarenteened from DJ in case it fails. probably prudent given the level of investment. What happens to the DJ pilots who jump ship for a 777 gig if it goes t!ts up?

Will they be offered their old jobs back, and redundancies occur in reverse order of seniority? Will the been counters have the final say and simply cut them loose? Will everybody have the same rights in this regard, or will some be protected more than others.

Lots to think about guys and girls!

[globallocal]

It just shows the typical mentality of this forum that people think it is going to fail even before it starts, and the fear mongering!!!

And to the SA guys good luck if you can get it, because most people in this world would take what ever they could get, if it was better than what they have where ever it is.

GL

[Gnadenburg]

Gnadenburg - that post does not even warrant a response and probably came close to being censored

Well I got a response. And although I failed to even momentarily deflect the sanctimonious nature of your posts. I can politely point out that though you were weened on censorship yourself; my response didn't warrant it for it reflected a recent government mandate.:)

[KRUSTY 34]

Quote:

"It just shows the typical mentality of this forum that people think it is going to fail even before it starts, and the fear mongering!!!"

It's not a matter of whether people think, or want something to fail. The very fact that DJ has been firewalled from VOZ would indicate that there is some risk. So to be prepared to risk your own livelihood and the future of your family (yes some of us do have wives and children), to jump out of a secure position, without at least satisfying yourself that you were covered to a reasonable extent?

Well, draw your own conclusions.

[Maisk Rotum]

Some of you may find it interesting that a South American with no ties to Australia, who hasn't flown the B777 recently has been called three times for an interview.

[nick charles]

I thought we were cutting back on African immigration?

Social problems, riots etc.

And what? Now they will be flying our aircraft?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that you will find that the South African pilots being considered for employment will merge into the community very easily. The only real difference between THEM and US is that their ancestors got off the boat in Capetown whereas ours remained on board until Sydney.

Forgive me if I'm incorrect but didn't a previous Australian government support the import of foreign pilots to crew domestic operations here? If so, then "they will be flying our aircraft" is nothing new.

[thosecotos]

VB created PacBlue as seperate company (for more reasons than just brand rights), along with Virgin Tech for its maintenance...both are still operating. The big V will do just fine

Latest info is they've made contact with 600 pilot applicants so far, must be a decent workforce in that?

[wessex19]

But will they support the Wallabies:ok:

[globallocal]

So to be prepared to risk your own livelihood and the future of your family (yes some of us do have wives and children), to jump out of a secure position, without at least satisfying yourself that you were covered to a reasonable extent?

Yes that fear base again!! Show me any job that is 100% secure, even the one your in. And I also have a family! but if I looked at every job advertised and feared it might fail then I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning.

God help me I might not even pass the interview!! Then what will I do??? HELP!!

As to the wallabies, they have the world cup and I really wouldn't want any yarpie supporting them, although I do have many SA friends they are tired of the political bumfight the SARU has become.

[KRUSTY 34]

Chr!st almighty globallocal! It's got nothing to do with fear mongering.

I wasn't saying not to look at this or any other position. Indeed if you are planning a step up, you would be crazy not to consider it. What I said, if you read my post with a little more care, was that to move from a secure (and yes I take your point that nothing is 100%) position then you would be well advised to at least try and cover your arse.

If VOZ are offering 4/7ths of the command slots to existing DJ Captains, then those DJ command positions will have to be replaced, and the vacated F/O positions and so on...... If something goes wrong with VOZ, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the problem. So whether VOZ and DJ are seperate entities or not, a link between the 2 companies will be established. To move from one to the other without some form of indication of where you stand within the Virgin organisation would be wishfull thinking at its worse.

So please do not lecture me about sacrifice and risk taking. Like most on this forum I have endured my fair share, and after 23 years in the game I do not think it unreasonable that people should at least seek clarification to what they are letting themselves in for.

[sandpit]

I don't have a copy of the EBA, but I thought they were required to offer 4/7 of the positions to DJ pilots. I don't wish to be a doom and gloom merchant but I didn't understand that to translate to 4/7 command positions, just 4/7 of total :{ So by the time they offer FO and SO positions and a few CPT's from management slide across, will there be much left for DJ CPT's? :confused:

As to the SA contingent, I don't think most would object to new immigrants getting jobs. But given that a DEC with V Oz is arguably the second best job in the local industry after a QF LH CPT, if they think they (or Aussie expat 777 drivers for that matter) can come in and take those positions without treading on a few toes, they have to be deluded. That is just an observation, not a comment about whether it is right or wrong.

[BR715]

So has anyone received confirmation for an interview via email or phone call yet ??

[No Idea Either]

Sandpit

Its 4/7ths of the command slots to existing VB Capts. The Deed only mentions available command slots in VOz and the corresponding current VB Capts who wish to chase them. There is mention only of current FO's within VB being offered opportunities after discussions between VOz and the AFAP (holding my breath.....NOT), no actual figures like the skippers.

[globallocal]

Must have hit a nerve K34 or are you just Crusty? Wow 23 yrs!!

Didn't insinuate any thing about "sacrifice and risk taking" or "lecture" you unlike you rant!

[go_soaring]

My friend called to rub it in that his interview with V Aus was 'sometime' in March... I think that's about the best that anyone is getting at the moment..

W3

[jetblues]

My maths for 4/7ths of first 7 B777's is very few VB Cpts on first 3 then increase in VB Cpts next 4 B777's. So can't see too many interviews for VB guys this year.

[Friction Nut]

go_soaring... what experience does your friend with the march interview have? And what position has he applied for?

Anyone else with interviews??

[go_soaring]

He has in excess of 7000hrs, flew for BA in the past, good amount of Command M.C. time. Most of his time in European Jets. Believe he's applied for both F/O and S/O positions.

Another mate pranked me the other day re: V Oz interview, had me convinced that I was the next one in! Just glad it wasn't on radio :)

W3

[loveflying737]

Well I got a response. And although I failed to even momentarily deflect the sanctimonious nature of your posts. I can politely point out that though you were weened on censorship yourself; my response didn't warrant it for it reflected a recent government mandate.:)
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3870891)
Sanctimonius is certainly not what the posts were intended to be. They provided an objective opinion of people who were being unfairly criticised. As for being weened on censorship - I've never had a post censored and hope I never do. I have never had reason to censor anyone - I'm afraid you lost me on this one.
Given the number of South Africans being granted visas to reside and work in Australia I doubt that your interpretation of the government mandate is correct.

[loveflying737]

But will they support the Wallabies:ok:


;) Maybe they will play for the Wallabies and they will take the World Cup back to Aussie next time.

[loveflying737]

As to the SA contingent, I don't think most would object to new immigrants getting jobs. But given that a DEC with V Oz is arguably the second best job in the local industry after a QF LH CPT, if they think they (or Aussie expat 777 drivers for that matter) can come in and take those positions without treading on a few toes, they have to be deluded. That is just an observation, not a comment about whether it is right or wrong.

Have to agree that the DEC job with VOz ranks right up there. I believe you are also right that most would have no objection to expat pilots / SA pilots being employed as long as they fulfilled the residence and licence requirements.

I do think that all propective applicants are going to have to accept that VOZ is going to take the people they feel will be best for the operation. If the pilots who are Australian citizens / permanent residents and hold Australian ATPs are given first bite at the apple, surely that should satisfy the masses. I don't think that expat Aussie pilots or recently immigrated permanent residents should (or will) be discriminated against.

In reality whenever a person is offered any position ahead of another there is a certain amount of ill feeling. I am sure that the pilots who are fortunate enough to get the jobs won't be too concerned as they will be working with other pilots as fortunate as themselves - they can then choose who they drink beer with.

[jetblues]

Who gives a rats arse about the Rugby anyway. It is going down the tubes in OZ, just look at the attendance numbers for the soccer and cricket this year, heaps better than the rugby.

[Gnadenburg]

I believe you are also right that most would have no objection to expat pilots / SA pilots being employed as long as they fulfilled the residence and licence requirements.

Sorry. I object. There are plenty of qualified Australian pilots about.

South African pilots are cheap and are purely being used as anti-inflationary.

I can't believe Australian pilots individually or collectively through unions aren't objecting to this.

There are thousands of Australian pilots qualified for the Virgin positions. Let's save our immigration policies for real skills shortages- say South African mining engineers. :)

[loveflying737]

There are thousands of Australian pilots qualified for the Virgin positions. Let's save our immigration policies for real skills shortages- say South African mining engineers. :)

:hmm:Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers. Why is it that pilots have such a problem ??????:bored:

[Launch_code_Harry]

Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers.Because there are literally HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of other employers that a doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers can go and work for, or start their own business.
Australian pilots effectively have 2 employers.
What would 1000 foreign doctors do for the average doctors T&C's?
What would 1000 foreign pilots do to the average pilots T&C's?

[Gnadenburg]

Is this because you are not a mining engineer and it would not affect you????? Strange that there are no doctors /nurses / engineers / dentists / school teachers, etc. etc. going on the internet to whinge about foreing workers. Why is it that pilots have such a problem ??????

loveflying737

No. We just don't need you. And I can't believe there isn't a rage ( yet ) on the use of cheap South African pilots.

For very little investment, Virgin can get all the pilots it needs. And they would be Australians. Whether they be repatriated skills from the likes of EK & CX for experience; or the investment by way of an endorsement for the thousands of other Australian pilots.

Virgin just want to pay bottom dollar. And that's where the South Africans come in.

Our immigration policy should be directed toward a genuine skills shortage. Talent that takes years to develop or involves excessive short term investment for industry.

And Australian pilots isn't one of them!

All Australian pilots should start writing to politicians. Who's the Immigration Minister these days?

[ACMS]

Yes I agree, it sucks big time.

Not one South African of South American Pilot should be employed at any flying job in Oz. Not until there are zero Australian Pilots available to fill the positions.

And don't say they can't get qualified Aussies to apply so it's ok to recruit overseas. They need to pay the right amount of money in the first place and heaps of guys would jump at the jobs.

I have a command rating on the 777 and 3000+ hrs command but I wont even bother applying until someone at V Oz can tell me the PAY SCALES, STAFF TRAVEL ENTITLEMENTS, ROSTERING PRACTICES, CREW COMPLIMENT, BASINGS, REDUNDANCY PACKAGE etc etc etc.

So there are plenty of qualified Aussies both inside and outside of Australia that could fill all of the positions but don't feel the need to prostitute themselves.

[dunerider]

I heard the other day that AIPA and the AMA are going to approach
the goverment regarding the use of 457 visa's to import cheap labour when
we have sufficient Australian pilots to do the job.It is just a scam to once again lower wages.As far as the Doctors are concerned they want more University places made available to train our own MD's.

[ACMS]

They can't offer absolute rubbish pay for Pilot's in Australia, then say they have to recruit overseas because they cannot get qualified Australians to do the job. It's just utter BS:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

If they paid properly they would have no trouble recruiting/retaining qualified staff. This applies equally from REX up to V Australia.

So don't blame the Pilot's for any perceived shortage.

We are around, waiting...................waiting.

SHOW US THE MONEY.:ok:

[loveflying737]

No. We just don't need you. And I can't believe there isn't a rage ( yet ) on the use of cheap South African pilots.

For very little investment, Virgin can get all the pilots it needs. And they would be Australians. Whether they be repatriated skills from the likes of EK & CX for experience; or the investment by way of an endorsement for the thousands of other Australian pilots.

Virgin just want to pay bottom dollar. And that's where the South Africans come in.

Our immigration policy should be directed toward a genuine skills shortage. Talent that takes years to develop or involves excessive short term investment for industry.

And Australian pilots isn't one of them!

All Australian pilots should start writing to politicians. Who's the Immigration Minister these days?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3876157)


The Australian real nett disposable income per capita for 2006 (can't find the latest figures - sorry) was A$37000pa and pilots are balking at earning
between +- A$80 000 pa (FO) - A$200 000 pa (Captain) that is going to go down well with the general population. Tell them they have to pay more for their tickets so that pilots can earn more, mmm.

Let me help you out here - your Minister for Immigration and Citizenship is Chris Evans and your Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations is Julia Gillard.

There is such a fuss being made about VOz possibly employing South African pilots and to date not one has even been interviewed. Given that VOz does not offer 457 visas (at this stage) - by my count there are less than 10 South African pilots who could apply. They would hold permanent residence visas to work in Australia so could hardly be discounted.

You repeatedly mention "cheap South African" pilots - I am not sure what makes them cheap. Are you so sure that they will undersell themselves.
Why don't you wait to see who is actually employed before making all this fuss.

As I get the feeling that the word xenophobia might apply here I will not post on this topic any further.

Good luck to all who apply to VOz - once I have some time on type and my visa is in order I certainly will apply.:)

[ennui]

The Australian real nett disposable income per capita for 2006 (can't find the latest figures - sorry) was A$37000pa and pilots are balking at earning
between +- A$80 000 pa (FO) - A$200 000 pa (Captain) that is going to go down well with the general population. Tell them they have to pay more for their tickets so that pilots can earn more, mmm.

mmmmm? Last job in Oz before departing for the grass over the fence that was just as brown (and a lot sandier) was about 100k. With the kids about to go to school, mortgage, car repayments, taxation, medicare levy and hidden tariffs and protectionism we were lucky to be a dollar in the black at the end of the month.

Could not see a way to give a better opportunity for my kids than my parents did for me, and that is ALL that my wife and I attempt to do! Retirement was a plan I had absolutely no disposable income to devote to.

Good luck to any immigrants who hope for a FINANCIALLY SECURE future in the country I can no longer afford to live in but will now retire comfortably to.

I understand (as the son of a post war immigrant) that you are considering a safe and secure country for your families. My heart goes out to you. I know you love your country, and it hurts deeply to leave it. When you see the future of South Africa written in the current situation in Zimbabwe it makes sense to go to a place with a similar culture where you will be safe and accepted.

Consider though the thoughts and feelings not only of the financial refugees like myself, wife and family, but also of those young, eager and talented young guys working themselves up from sweeping hanger floors, refueling aircraft in the heat dust and flies, loading freight and doing a hundred menial tasks in order to one day do the job that you are going to take from them.

In the short term all you are doing is driving down terms and conditions. In the long term you are going to do long term damage to our industry by removing any incentive young people have to aspire to be an airline pilot.

Once you have your residency for your families and a safe and secure first world country to base yourselves in I guess we'll see you back OS where the money is.

[ShockWave]

ennui... I agree with all you say! But no one can actually justify earning more than the average wage to someone who earns less than they do.
It is simply a fact of life in an open market where people get paid what the market demands.
How can you justify someone getting paid a million dollars just to show up and play a round of golf?
We as pilots have freely taken up a career where we are subject to the vagaries of market forces, for better or worse!
Unfortunately in Australia there has been an over supply of pilots for so long that we have become dysfunctional as a group. We are divided and have been conquered.
Now that there is a shortage of experienced pilots we should see some correction in terms and conditions. However, the companies will now try to prevent this overdue correction by importing cheap labour to artificially keep labour charges lower.
This ultimately prevents new students from entering the market, resulting in less flying schools, instructors, GA pilots etc.... Bad for the industry and economy.
For the sake of the whole industry, Pilots in OZ need to work together to prevent this from continuing.
If that means that airfares have to rise, then so be it.
In the 90's the government tried to bring in foreign workers to man the waterfront at cheaper rates and longer hours. It did not work because the water front workers stuck together! Most of them now earn more money than an F/O in OZ and many Captains.
Australian Pilots are entitled to the same rights as all other Australians and all Australians need to support them in this or no job will be secure.

[On Guard]

Interested to see what your opinions are on Kiwi pilots working in Oz?

Is this an issue?

[boocs]

The sheep don't seem to mind......

b.

[Best Rate]

Hey ShockWave,

Firstly, I wish V Australia all the very best and every success it deserves - and congrats to all the experienced / devoted technical, cabin and support crew that shall be recruited.

In response to your last post though, would there be, in your view, any possibility of organising some sort of "educational forum" ,(lets say), in the hope of instigating a much-needed wave of change (i.e in the value that we are credited for by our respective employers) in this profession of ours... ?

I know that this sort of event could be difficult (or near impossible) to arrange, but could this 'divide/conquer' mentality be at least somewhat attacked/attempted to be overcome??? (I'm extremely non-militent JFTR)

You said it yourself, unity CAN effect change.. It is etched in History's pages..

Surely a great deal of us here in Aus Aviation believe that the tide is beginning to turn, and now could just well be the time to vocalise and iterate that fact...

Just a thought...

BR

[ShockWave]

There is another thread which has been started by Lawrie Cox AFAP which details an excellent way that things could proceed and possibly succeed. I hope for everyones sake that progress can be made in this regard.

It is so frustrating to sit overseas and watch you guys fight against one another as to how much less you can work for. I can only guess at how it must feel to be a part of a self perpetuating decline in professional terms and conditions. :ugh:
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas!:ugh: So you lose again!
I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.

We have to become less self absorbed, competitive, and fearful.
Which of course are all the things we have depended upon our whole careers to succeed and stay alive!

The industry needs to change in order for it's members to change.
The industry can only change if it's members want it to change.
The industry needs to have workers who feel that they are members of the same industry.

If you strap on an aircraft for a living you are part of the same industry, no matter the size!

Work together and work it out guys. Good luck

[No Idea Either]

Shockwave,

Its good to be the King, Lord of all you survey. With all due respect:

It is so frustrating to sit overseas and watch you guys fight against one another as to how much less you can work for. I can only guess at how it must feel to be a part of a self perpetuating decline in professional terms and conditions. :ugh:
Then when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas!:ugh: So you lose again!
I don't think it is just a matter of education, we are all well aware of where we are and how we got here. Our motivation, goals and egos will always be prey to exploitation from our employers, and we generally accept it because there always seems to be another carrot dangled just in sight.


This doesn't affect me but from what I've read and heard around the traps, the Virgin people are concerned about the expats all coming home and working for a lot less than the going rate, just to get home. Where does that stand in your equation. I believe (open to correction on anything, being a rumour network and all) that Virgin is offering about 210K including super. That would put your base pay at about 190K AUD (170K USD/630K Dirham/116K Euros/87K GBP and 1280K Rand), losing about another 45% of that in tax, depending on your situation of course. My understanding is that this is way below the going rate for a 777 skipper. So back to the crunch.....pilots from overseas coming home and "taking" (please note inverted comma's people) jobs from local people. And yes, a lot of expats ARE local people, but once again are they coming home and accepting lower T&C's just to get home. If its that rosey overseas, why the clamour for these jobs. If Virgin had to pay the going rate I dont think the animosity that exists today would be as dividing to our profession, and that would be a very good thing. So shockwave, please dont lecture us about our race to the bottom when the race is infact being won at the moment by (apparantly) the expats wanting to come home. Your argument is self defeatingThen when you reach the limit of what you are prepared to swallow your companies turn around and say we can't get enough crew, lets import them from overseas!:ugh: So you lose again!


But then again, I have no idea.

[Hey Driver]

How many fit this profile?

Have been OS for a long time, not necessarily of their own choice, are ready to retire soon, a job comes up at home on current type, so for a couple of years who cares about the T & C’s, they are at home and can ease into retirement. The younger guys call look after themselves.:O

Sound familiar, who were the original commanders in VB.(the promised pay has still not materialised):confused:

The FO’s will be the ones to suffer. Don’t think about progression the VB guys will be looking for the 777 command.:cool:

[No Idea Either]

My point exactly.........your's is?

Lets not do the usual and get into a tit-for-tat match. All I'm saying is that it is everyone at the moment who is dragging this industry down, not just folks in Oz. Its the same old story, we need to put ALL our heads together regardless, and until that happens this crap will still go on. But is there any chance of that ever happenning, who knows.

.

[A. Le Rhone]

Shockwave makes an excellent point about the way forward and pilots being their own worst enemies.

The very next post! Some smart arse retort from No Idea about his being "the King, Lord of all you survey". What better proof can you have for the division amongst us 'Professional' Pilots.

No Idea - you raise a valid point but your delivery sucks.
Hey Driver - yes these people have been overseas not of their own choice. Who sent them there in the first place? Greedy colleague pilots, yet again willing to undermine their fellow aviators. This is where the 'screw my peer' mentality really began in earnest and has yet to be reversed.

So it is time for the AFAP and IAPA to join forces but moreover it is time for pilots to stop screwing each other, whining like infants and get on with collectively improving our lot. I'm probably dreaming - it's so much easier to whine on PPRune than actually do anything.

Its time for the CAPA (Combined Australian Pilots Association) with internal chapters representing pilots from Qantas LH, Qantas SH, Jetstar, Virgin and Tiger respectively. The combined approach to pilots T&C is the ONLY way forward (with less petty whinging).

[Al E. Vator]

Shockwave that was an excellent post. My sentiments exactly.

The mentality of the PPRUNE-warriors that replied is indicative of the problems we face. Gents your replies were valid but how do they help change anything?

Our conditions have been forced south (largely by ourselves passively accepting this direction from management) and now they can't get enough pilots, rather than paying a decent wage they are trying to scrape together individuals from all over the world.

Yes bring on that combined union. It is the only way out of this mire.

[Far Kinarss]

It is only fair that Australian jobs are filled by Australians but they need to be qualified Australians. Furthermore airline managers don’t give a rat’s arse what’s fair.

It is therefore reasonable to be somewhat indignant about the two groups who, combined, will accept a lesser package than what should be paid in V Australia.
Africans coming for a resident’s permit and underqualified resident Australians are these two groups.

Resistance to qualified returning Australian expats is most likely to come from two areas of resident Australians both of whom can get a dog up them. The first group is the 89 scabs who are the reason the expat Aussies left in the first place and the second is, once again, the underqualified residents. If you are a B737 Captain for VB or whoever else and that's all you have ever done you aren’t qualified; get over it. Go across as a duck for a few years and then have a crack at it. As far as the first group goes, never forgive and never forget. Anyone who argues with this sentiment is either one of them or too young to remember.

[powersfasher]

Does anyone have an interview date (post telephone one) yet ????

[shaftmaster]

Just got an email asking what date i would like to come for an interview from the 3rd March to 11th April either in Syd Melb or Bris....:) Let the fun begin

[On Guard]

What position did you apply for? Hrs if you don't mind.

Cheers

[shaftmaster]

Cruise FO. 3500 total with a bit of Dash 8 time

[Long John Silver]

I got the phone call saying expect an interview date soon. Applied for the cruise and senior FO positions. By the sounds of the phone conversation it was a very generic invite and I wouldn't be surprised if they had not even reviewed my application yet. Does anyone know whether the minimums for senior FO (see below) are absolute and fixed? Or are they more in line with 'desireable' criteria?

"4,000 hours total flying time. 2,000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft experience in excess of 40,000 kgs"

[TAC inop.]

Well, I'd offer that it would be a minimum requirement actually

Look at the rest of the world's 777 requirements.......EK requires 3000 hours large Jet as a minimum for FOs, Plus 3000 PIC Large Jet for DECs , same with KAL contracts ( in Command widebody ) Vietnam requires 1000 hours on type (777) ....the list goes on if you have a look around what's on offer at the moment
Yes there is a pilot shortage, but you have to realise that this means 'shortage of suitably qualified' crew.

FAR had a few good points....
''If you are a B737 Captain for VB or whoever else and that's all you have ever done you aren’t qualified''
True for the most part in the contract world if you are chasing a 777 appointment ibid

So, in closing, if the requirements in the above post are factual, then I'd say y'all will be getting off lightly as a very base minimum.

The 777 isnt just a big dash 8, nor is it very similar to a 737, and VA are not just in the market to 'hop' around Australian capital cities.

[60 & below]

:) Shaftmaster
Well done I hope all goes well for your interview.
Did they mention the interview process?

[629bus]

Got the email too. Dont forget the Hong Kong interview location :}

[MAX]

S/O or F/O interview in HK?

I ticked all of the above but not heard a peep since the phone call.

Though maybe she could sense my dissapointment when we talked about cash.:ouch:

Good luck with it anyway.

MAX:cool:

[629bus]

F/O position, i applied for both

[Best Rate]

TAC inop., you sound like such a wealth of worldy aviation knowledge with your views and understanding on VA's requirements and ranking expectations....

What other wonderful wisdom can you bestow upon us pertaining to this thread?

B R :D

[Long John Silver]

TAC inop, thanks for your input. I wanted to get a feel for what they'd be looking for in senior F/O's and you have provided that - thankyou.

From my background, an FO gig on a 777 sounded like a golden opportunity, even if the payscale was below average. However if they are truly looking for people already endorsed with 2000hrs on type (or similar types) and willing to work their guts out (as per virgin roster) then I think the payscale is way below what it should be.

Does anyone know what the payscale for SO's (junior FO's) are? The requirements drop considerably for SO's (1000hrs Total time), so I'm assuming the pay would drop considerably also.

[Artificial Horizon]

Does anyone know at what point the recruitment is at, I applied around six months ago and assumed that had totally missed the boad when I had no contact at the end of last year, then out of the blue have an email saying the recruitment team want to conduct a telephone interview with me early next week. I assume that this is just one of there 'marketing research' phone calls, testing the water to see how many are willing to pay for ratings and accept the pay package. When do they actually need pilots for? and has anyone actually been offered a 'real' interview or indeed been given any details of terms and conditions????

[Maisk Rotum]

Just got the phone call telling me the pay will be $180-210K and was I still interested. They will have to pay every cent of that 210, and a bit more, to get myself and many others interested. No doubt most applicants are doing it as a fishing exercise to see what will really be offered. If the final deal is only 180-190 many many will turn it down.

[Goofyfoot]

Candidates short listed for F/O (Cruise Relief)positions have been notified. Invites for Capt's and SFO's will be sent out in the next few weeks for interviews from April onwards. T&C's available prior to interview. Good luck:ok:

[B772]

Just heard a rumour Virgin Blue have been approached by a large number of ex AA B777-200 pilots who resigned/retired on 31 Jan. The pilots have proposed they remain in the U.S and crew the flights ex the U.S.

Could be interesting !.

[The Professor]

Maisk,

"They will have to pay every cent of that 210, and a bit more, to get myself and many others interested."

Well, then you obviously wont be working for them. I dont think any airline is in the habit of designing a pay scale around . . . . just you, my friend.

I know of "many others" from airlines such as SQ and EK that have applied and will accept the position if offered. A few from CX too.

There are not a huge number of positions available but they will easily fill them.

[Going Boeing]

B772, I assume that the ex AA guys are aware that they will have to get an Oz ATPL to crew the VA aircraft.

[Howard Hughes]

I can't see it happening!

VA will have no problem crewing their aircraft, if they don't get any experienced applicants they will just train up VB staff...:E

[Shot Nancy]

B772, I assume that the ex AA guys are aware that they will have to get an Oz ATPL to crew the VA aircraft.

Oh how hard it will be. Didn’t the hero who inspired this thread, as an Australian citizen, get a US ATPL then convert to an Ozzie one?

[Going Boeing]

Yes but it doesn't get any easier as you get older. Most of the ex AA guys would be around 60 years of age.

[74world]

Hi Maisk Rotum

I got the exact same phone call about a month ago, but unlike you, I can't wait to sign!!!!!
Sick of being an exapt.....

Enjoy where ever you are. :cool:

[Ramboflyer 1]

No interview yet with 15000 hours and 5000 jet command half on 777.
It must be very popular.

[Chris Higgins]

Rambo Flyer 1.

I can't believe they got your application in the first place if they haven't contacted you, not with that kind of time on type. Did you follow up?

[forgetabowdit]

I believe the only interviews at the moment are for Junior FO's... With that experience you will no doubt be contacted when they recruit for the other two roles after the JFO's are sorted.

[oldhasbeen]

Hey Rambo, with that much R/H seat time , I can't believe they didn't interview for a S/O slot:D:D

[Maisk Rotum]

Professor, The 210 was their figure not mine and the extra bit might come as a result of the question "Do you have any check and training experience". You clearly must be on the recruiting team if you can say "There are not a huge number of positions available but they will easily fill them." The figure of 120-150 pilots does sound like a fairly large number to me.

74world. I have been in your position before and beleive me when I say that repatriating to Australia aint what it is all cracked up to be. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. It should not be done at all costs. Look very hard at the financial aspects of it. Australia is up there with Europe now in terms of cost of living. Sometimes having a choice muddies our thinking. Good luck whichever way you go.

[frozen man]

Maisk

Could not agree more re repatriating to aus, a very dissapioniting experience after 5 years in europe. Things back here are much dearer and busier than they used to be, so why not have all the benifits of not living on the bottom of the world.

[Asianlonghaul]

The web site is still closed so as an Oz expat with Oz ATPL, I can't apply!!



As for EMIRATES requirements for F/Os they only need Jet time and are hiring loads of regional jet guys with no heavy time. They had a short spell of only taking guys with heavy time about 4 years back. They are again taking DECs again.



$210K Oz after tax is very low for a 777 guy in the sand pit or HK but as stated a few near to retirement may give it a go.


As for the AA guys they still need a few exams and IR to convert, not as effortless as some make out. It is maybe easy but lots of hassle. Hope V don't go that way.

[Dehavillanddriver]

Thats 210k BEFORE tax and including 9% super - so the take home is considerably less than 210k

[FO Cokebottle]

Guys,

Received an email from V-Australia updating the recruitment situation - all very up market HR hype - than asking me to indicate my continued interest in the SFO position.

Here is an excerpt from my reply.......names changed to protect the guilty:8

Dear Maddie,

As discussed, when your office called me to verify and canvass my situation and circumstances, my current employment offers far greater employee benefits and better tax circumstances than could ever be contemplated by V-Australia and in Australia in general.

In addition, V-Australia's gracious offer of requiring me to fund my own type rating training, considering the experience you require, shows that V-Australia's management has a distorted view of the professional pilot fraternity and, with regard to my experience and type ratings held, absolutely no respect for that fraternity.

In consideration of the above, I could not and will not work under these perceived attitudes, expectations and conditions.

Yours thankfully


You can call me arrogant but as an expat that returns regulary to Oz, the repatriation requirement to work for V-Australia and all the associated costs.....well, lets just say I am exercising my right of choice. :cool:

[KRUSTY 34]

A lot has been said about the strategies for crewing Australian airline aircraft. One often rolled out is the recruitment of overseas labour. Particulary the employment of Direct Entry Captains.

Whether Domestic, International or even the Australian Regionals, the crewing of Australian aircraft will continue at an increasing level of difficulty untill such time that the mangements of these airlines choose to compete for labour.

FO Cokebottle's reply says it all.

[powersfasher]

What is the going average pay scale for cruise FO on B777 overseas ?
Would the V Australia offer be that far off the mark if you had no jet experience at all ? ( VA offering 78k).

[The Professor]

"What is the going average pay scale for cruise FO on B777 overseas ?"

Most airlines just have FO's (junior / senior / whatever). Cruise FO sounds like an SO to me. Compared to SO's at CX and NZ, Voz will be on par at the number you mention.

Voz cruise FO pay will even exceed the FO pay at many competing carriers in the region.

[zlin77]

Flew with a Brazilian the other day, he said that he had applied to V777 and the company had confirmed that the work permit/visa was not a problem. Plenty of former experienced Varig 777 drivers out there!

[Chris Higgins]

Yeah, as much as I disagree with Pay-for-Training, I wouldn't have burned a bridge like that, if that's where you wanted to work. What if they change their policy? Do you think they'll call you?

By the way, I haven't applied, because I like my job too much to leave, so I have no agenda here.

[globallocal]

Does any one have a educated idea and I mean "educated", not "VB does this" and "they are over worked", etc, etc. An idea of what the roster will be like? I've tried to do the numbers with 5 crews per frame, 10 flts a week etc, but having not worked for a airline before I would like to get an idea of a roster. and I know it is open to opinion but something in the ball park.
Does any one have some inside knowledge?

[Maisk Rotum]

Something all the aspiring F/Os & S/O should also consider is this: A round trip to SFO or LAX will put 26.5 hours in your logook. Do three of those and there is your 80 hours flying done for a month. Four pilots will be required on that flight. If they use the QF system of S/Os then three of them will be authorized to land the plane. If they use junior F/Os or some other such title then all four need to land the plane sometime. Do the maths and that is either 2 landings a month or 1.5 respectively. Add in the training requirements of an airline expanding and you can probably half that number once checked out. I am sure VA will come up against the same problem Oasis has in getting their pilots 90 day landing recency. Landing recency will then need to be done in the sim. With 1000 hours on type you may have only 10-15 landings on type. Getting a job on a short haul aeroplane wih lots of landings is far greater experience than 1000 hours with the centre autopilot in comand at 36,000'.

[jetblues]

I watched Business Success on Channel 9 with interest this morning. They panned in on a scene where pilot recruitment was being discussed. They mentioned 1300 applications and a multitude of B777 drivers from around the world had applied. Talk about not using the wealth of experience from within VB will disengage the troops far further than they realise.

[Going Boeing]

I agree with the intent of what you are saying although your QF figures are incorrect - the Captain and F/O share the sectors as the two S/O's are not authorised to do take-offs and landings.

Some years ago, I was talking to an United Airlines B744 F/O who said that their West Coast US long haul operation consisted of one Captain and three F/O's. Normally, their flying consisted of 6 sectors per month (3 trips out and back) and as the Captain always operated the outbound sector, the three F/O's competed for the home bound sector with it normally going to the one who was closest to running our of recency. At best, the F/O's were only getting one landing per month.

Some people knock joining QF because it is beneath them to become an S/O after being a Captain on their current type be it in a regional airline, general aviation or the military, but for those that do accept the limitations of being a S/O, they end up being rewarded by more sectors once they are promoted to F/O. I personally prefer the QF system to the United Airlines one.

[Maisk Rotum]

Ok I get it now. Frankly I am surprised that there is only one captain on a 14 hour westbound flight. So if VS does the same system a pilot would typically do six sectors a month. That means a captain or F/O could expect 3 landings a month-in a good month. Halve that for the first 5 years of operation as they will have an overwhelming training requirement as they ramp up ops. I bet QF F/Os are thankful there are S/O as they don't pinch 'their' landings!!!

[murdoch_disliker]

If conditions for this job are considered below local conditions and there is a reliance on foreign labour to fill these positions that could be filled by local pilots, then it is getting into the area of activating an IFALPA recruitment ban that could be effective. Just a thought...:oh:

[Asianlonghaul]

Maybe the Web site is closed for applications so V Oz can justify hiring cheap overseas qualified 777 drivers by saying they don’t have enough applications from Australians? Several Australian expats want to apply but missed the first dead line. Applying and joining are two different things though as after tax the pay maybe very low compared to those in the Sandpit and in HK. Those South American drivers on low pay may be interested so lets see! Most South Africans I know are working on good Terms and Conditions, so I don't think too may will join if the pay is as low as talked about here.

[Wirefly]

Maybe the Web site is closed for applications so V Oz can justify hiring cheap overseas qualified 777 drivers by saying they don’t have enough applications from Australians?

Or maybe the site is closed because the closing date is passed. Maybe VOz needed a closing date so that they could start the recruitment process.

Maybe once they have processed the applications they have and find that they do not have enough suitable applicants that want to take the job they will open the website up again.

Maybe there will be some people who will be sorry that they never took the trouble to apply and maybe there will be some who will be sorry that they did.

Maybe the final package on offer will be increased and all those highly experienced Aussie pilots who pulled their noses up at the first offer will fall over their own feet trying to get into VOz. Maybe by that time all the positions will be filled by desperate "cheap" overseas pilots.

Gee the variables are endless - maybe there will be some surprises. The optimists may be disappointed / the pessimists may be pleasantly surprised.:)

[KittyBlue]

I followed up on why applications have been closed as published. Pure and simple response. To begin processing applicants and to bench mark the applicants and what is required for the business needs. You have to start somewhere, and this is where they are doing it.

Personal comment ' The industry in australia and the world has changed. Each person has the chance of applying for a position that they fit the legal and operational requirements. A company has the choice on who they wish to employ and they have no obligation to include someone they believe is not fit to fly as they have a bad record...etc.. I have seen several FOs terminated inside probationary periods because of attitudes not fitting the company.

[campdoag]

hey fellas and girlies.. I just recieved an e-mail from Maddie with the access codes to an SHL assesment.... E-mail states that I must complete the assesment online before I head to Sydney for interview in 3 weeks. Anyone out there completed the assesment yet?? I'm wanting to know what im in for before the clock starts ticking.... Anyone heard what the interview day involves.... I heard maybe a group lego house building excercise.......

[MAX]

Is that for cruise gig or are they calling up F/O's and Cpts now?

MAX:cool:

[Asianlonghaul]

Remember when looking at take off & landings per month the V 777 is planned to do Perth SYD LAX. So some shorter sectors!

[coaldemon]

What makes you think that it will do any domestic sectors at all? No VB aerobridge fits it so all arrivals/ departures from International. Yes I can see how that will work.....................

[wirgin blew]

No VB aerobridge fits it

They will just build some big metal stairs for the front and back doors and hey presto full standoff

:ok:

[Best Rate]

Just wait and see, gals and guys...

Landing recency won't be as difficult to achieve at V as some may think... :)

[B772]

Coaldemon. The rumour is the V Australia will also operate to Per ex BNE/SYD/MEL for pax and cargo reasons. Do not forget V Australia are
planning to operate 15 or so B777-300's.

Just for interest SQ operate the A340-500 on some frequencies between SIN-JKT just for crew currency purposes. (Totally uneconomical)

[B772]

I also understand the B777-300's will be 2 class !.

[Shot Nancy]

I hear that an ex CX 777 Chief Pilot is looking for a job.
Maybe he will get a gig in Oz.

[jetblues]

VB have been looking for a wide body to operate domestically for some time. The biggest hurdle is the bridges, which appears to limit the options considerably.

[coaldemon]

I think that you will find that the initial 5 aircraft are for International destinations only. No domestic aerobridges in VB network can accept anything bigger than a 767 or A330.

[Howard Hughes]

No domestic aerobridges in VB network can accept anything bigger than a 767 or A330.
Adelaide can! :eek:

Provided flight's don't clash with International flights, but who would want to send a B777 to Adelaide...;)

[MattBNE]

yeah, i agree and it's what i'm hearing as well. JFO's or "cruise FO" are happening in the next couple of weeks, other roles to follow. seems to be plenty of serious candidates for all the roles. my own experience is that it's often a career benefit to get in early anyway rather than stand back and comment from the sidelines.

[campdoag]

here you go guys and girls............ direct cut and paste from an e-mail from maddie

"As a Cruise Relief First Officer your main responsibility will be to provide in-flight relief support to the primary crew member above 20,000 feet. If you are successful for the position, you will be employed directly by V Australia on an individual contract.

Although salary has not yet been finalised you can expect a salary range between $45,000 - $60,000 per annum*. This is a total salary and includes superannuation and incentive payments. Cruise Relief First Officer salary will be in two bands, with your level of experience determining your banding. V Australia will pay for endorsement costs, and a bond period will apply.

The V Australia Fatigue Risk Management System will permit rostering to a maximum of 1000 hours per annum and rosters will be based on a 28 day cycle. You will be guaranteed 9 days off in any roster period at your home base, and you will receive 42 days annual leave."


arhwell......:ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Surely you are kidding?:eek:

[blackbird71]

methinks someone in management has been smoking the wacky tabbacky!!
:ugh::eek::suspect::rolleyes::ooh::{:sad::=:*:8:uhoh::confus ed::bored::mad:

[Friction Nut]

no, no, no, no, surely you cant be serious!!!:ugh::eek::ugh:

hahaha, its really becoming quite comical....

[Rabbitwear]

Think id rather join the 737 fleet as an f/o.

[KRUSTY 34]

No I am not kidding. And don't call me Shirley!

Sorry too much TV.

[Howard Hughes]

Think id rather join the 737 fleet as an f/o.
Even the Embraer is more isn't it?:ooh:

[campdoag]

UMMMM..... no I'm not kidding you gals and guys!!!!
The above is a direct quote.......

I have 4000+ hours and Dash8 command.... A friend of mine has 3500 hours a grade 1, CAR 217 approval and a few hundred hours in a king air and he got sent an e-mail saying his experience was not competive enough!!!! I'm not Sh.tt.ng you Saw the e-mail with my own eyes..

I seems they want guys with reasonable experience but want to pay them like 500 hour newbies.....

I guess they havent worked out that there is some reasonable money in GA these days......eg. 95k to fly a metro or 125k for a Dash8

PAY PEANUTS GET F___ING MONKEYS

[backspace]

Now, lets see, if we work on the 60% rule we get F/O salary at 75000-100000 and Capts at 125000-167000. Me thinks lots of people are going to go along to the interviews for a laugh.

[oldsmithy]

Yes me be invited for interview. Me think might stay home but a total waist of time and effort. V must think Pilot's are f***ing stupid.

[VONKLUFFEN]

what is the 60% rule?

[maui]

Backspace

I think you will find that the only RULE that applies is "there are no rules"

Maui

[629bus]

The 60% rule is they are now offering 60% of the salary which was clearly indicated in the intilal phone interviews!

[VONKLUFFEN]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::mad:

[Howard Hughes]

I would consider the money talked about in the phone interview as the bare minimum, many would not be able to afford to accept the offer if they make it any lower...:eek:

[B772]

Rumour has it VA are sitting on almost 1500 applications from all around the world including a huge percentage of B777 rated Captains. There are even applications from British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and Royal Brunei crew. Some non-rated applicants have even offered to pay for their own endorsement.

I guess a job in Australian for a foreign pilot is almost as attractive as a job overseas was for Australian pilots in the past.

[Bendo]

Email I got this afternoon indicated a salary for cruise FO's of $40-60k ALL INCLUSIVE.

So this includes superannuation and any bonusses.

Assuming you are on $60k that's a gross salary of $4587/ month or $3500 after tax... yes that's right punters $870 per week and they can schedule you for 1,000 hours per year.

If you are on $40,000 that translates to $570 per week after tax.

Hooray! Jobs for everyone! :ouch:

[Launch_code_Harry]

Rumour has it VA are sitting on almost 1500 applications from all around the worldYes, easy to say that when they didn't quote the $$$'s until after people where actually short listed.
It will be interesting to see how many they can convert to bums-on-seats.
Considering REX profits are down 10% because they claim there is a pilot shortage on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=315565) I find it difficult to reconcile the two.

[VONKLUFFEN]

Now, lets see, if we work on the 60% rule we get F/O salary at 75000-100000 and Capts at 125000-167000. Me thinks lots of people are going to go along to the interviews for a laugh.

Don't think Captains will be making same or even less than VB drivers...

Could the above figures be after someone did the tax math?

Did someone get the wrong info? Why would VA say something on the phone and then when you show up something different. Very high chances that being so, 98 % of pilots will feel they have been cheated and 100% of those 98 will turn the offer down. Hope VA are not so :}

[gj18457]

Terrible offer.Perhaps they are fishing for young guys with 200 hours
to accept the cruise F.O slots.

[campdoag]

VONKLUFFEN
i'm not sure about the Sen FO or the Capt salaries but the post i made earlier is a direct quote from an e-mail i recieved from V. It is fact not hearsay.

HH it is true many will not be able to afford to accept this offer, myself included........ It's less than half my current salary and thats not including my retention bonus........with a couple of morgatges and other commitments, its just not an option for that sort of money!! I'll keep my dash thanks!!

[Zero_au]

I have just heard that the goal posts may have been shifted again. Apparrently, the 4 out of every 7 command slots awarded to VB captains will require the VB pilot to resign from VB and their will be NO VB domestic staff travel avaliable. This is to discourage commuting. If this is true then pilots that accept a position will well and truly be setting a new low benchmark for a B777 skipper! Anybody in the know like to expand on the above?:hmm:

[Chocks Away]

...VB pilot to resign from VB and their will be NO VB domestic staff travel

:}
Well, if true that's just reduced the "pool of applicants" a huge amount.
Not many will accept that I feel, especially on the dollars mentioned.
Any Pacific/Poly Blue guys transferring to VB have to resign, with no recognition of service years (on the same Boeing , same SOPS etc). It's just stupid and makes no sense, given what's on offer with other Airlines.

[Going Boeing]

If the figures for Cruise F/O (i.e. S/O) are as low as reported on this thread, why would anyone consider taking the job? They could join QF on more than twice the salary, have a front seat within a few years and then have a choice of types which would give them professional variety plus lifestyle advantages. :confused:

[jetblues]

There is a fair degree of rubbish going around re the 777 jobs for current VB crew.

FACT : there are no facts yet.

Yes a current VB pilot will have to resign from VB, however there is a continuation of service and return to domestic fleet clause that would be a useful "get out of jail" card if required.

Re staff travel, the latest is that it WILL be available (at least this is what the cabin crew were told last week).

[Flying Spag Monster]

It will help VA's case when they go to the government and say we couldn't get enough pilots in Oz to man our fleet. Can we offer jobs and a residence to foreigners please? 40-60K PLUS a visa....Priceless! for everything else there's mastercard.

[VONKLUFFEN]

Is the gross salary offered for CF - FO - Cap the problem or is it that the government takes a lot in taxes ? A 767 job in Japan is paying 193000 before taxes ....
Just to look at this from a different point of view.:ooh:

[SOPS]

its the tax man..its the tax. What you have to look at is what is left in your hand after the tax people take their slice:cool:

[VONKLUFFEN]

Any company can give the best of the salaries but if you are taxed heavily it is not the company's fault that you have less left at the end of the month.
That is why I ask who is the villain in the movie? Lets suppose the Oz gov would tax us very little amount. Would the salaries offered be good? In many places of Europe people have barley any money left to spend but all is covered for them, schools, health insurances, pension etc. How much can a company afford to keep people happy? It is the cost of a pilot what airlines take into account. Not how much he has left to get his BMW...That tax factor is not under their control , here in Oz or any part of the globe.
I know I know we all want to have not one but two BMW parked in the garage!!:ok:

[flyhardmo]

Tax man or no tax man. 45-60K a yr to be part of a crew on a widebody is SH!T in anyones language wherever you are.

Vonkluffen said
Just to look at this from a different point of view.

I fail to see a different point of view when you have to work in a pub on your resting days so your family can have at least one meal a day.

[bushy]

And that's only exaggerating a little bit.
Three of my ex pilots are now flying for the RFDS. One told me recently he has had a number of offers, but does not want to fly for airlines. He is earning significantly more than the airlines offered him.
All three of them, like me, opted to stay doing useful work in GA.
You know GA, that terrible industry where you have to live in a ****hole, get paid peanuts, fly clapped out aircraft for bosses who all carry whips.
And that's only exaggerating a little bit.
Oh poor bugger me.

[60 & below]

:) Campdoag

Could you give us some insight to the SHL Assesment.
Was it a Personality test or was there a mathematical and professional spin to it? E.G Qantas

[campdoag]

60 and below it was the same as qantas.........

have fun with your 45000

it is a little dissapointing that people are still considering 45000-60000 a viable option. If the majority of candidates DECLINED the offer on the basis of poor pay, they would have only have a couple of options.
Fill the seats with arse licking 1200hour newbies or raise the salary to attract the more experienced. Like i said earlier they seem to have only offered interviews to candidates with around 4000hours

good luck

[Ref + 10]

Anyone with 4000hrs in the current market can command a 6 figure salary at many, many different companies around the country. I really don't see the allure of being a "cruise f/o" in a big jet when your family, lifestyle, etc all have to take a very distant back seat.

I have no doubt that they will get the front seats filled but hopefully there will be enough people knocking the offers back to get them thinking about raising the t&c's. Getting in early and waiting/hoping for them to improve as another pruner suggested is not a chance I would take with my family.

[60 & below]

:) Campdoag

Thanks for the info

[excellr8]

Average Aussie wage is 56k a year......To fly a 777 earning around that figure............It's a joke. You can't even afford rent in AUS on a wage like that, owning a home............forget it.

[Tankengine]

Can all current/future crew of all Airlines ask themselves why THEY are not worth as much as some of their peers!

S/O Qantas salary is the benchmark for "cruise F/O":ugh:

While some will work for peanuts all of our careers goes down the drain!:mad:

[neville_nobody]

Rumour has it VA are sitting on almost 1500 applications from all around the world

That doesn't mean a thing. It's how many people actually accept the offer then turn up. The real statistic is how many of those who got in actually turned it down. That will suggest how competitive the market really is.

[Hey Driver]

do a couple of years as a cruise FO before progressing to FO!


Sorry but for your own sake you need to take off the rose coloured glasses.

Optimistically it would take 5 years to FO and effectively you would still only have 1500 hours experience.

Get some real life experience before you chain yourself to a long haul career.

It's not like there are no other choices.

Good luck.:)

[Vorsicht]

Rumour mill in the sandpit says a couple of Emirates guys have been offered jobs as trainers. Anyone know any more?

V

[TopTup]

$45-$60k a year is an insult to any pilot, not just on one of the world's biggest aircraft, but any aircraft in that remote category. Those of you willing to accept it must bear the brunt of your choice.

YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ANY RIGHT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT LOWERING STANDARDS IN THE INDUSTRY (meals, rest periods, accomodation, training....etc) WHEN YOU ARE PART OF THE EXACT PROBLEM CREATING IT.

Once again, me, me , me.... Pilot unity? HA! I wish but can never see it happening.

Too bad integrity isn't part of a Trevor Thom book.

[rnuts]

VA say the wage is still in negotiations. (so who is negotiating)please enlighten me.:ugh:

[bushy]

Many of todays airline pilots contributed to the destruction of T&C's in GA. They are now doing it to the regionals, and the majors.
It will continue as long as people believe they can go from high school to that golden F/O skygod job in a year or two.
It's a long hard slog, whichever way you go.

[Bendo]

I am earning $80k doing useful, varied work flying a C206. Why would I bother?

They are obviously aiming for the Rex & Eastern FO's for whom $55-60 is only a sideways step.

Good luck to 'em :=

[fire_fox0224]

One of the most pathetic post I have ever read.Head out bush and be a man

[404 Titan]

Peoples, I suspect “The Shield” is probably “V Aus” management trying to sell the job. First ever post but registered two years ago. I mean just read that post again. It’s clear it is a sell job and a blatantly very bad sell job at that.:mad::yuk:

[The Hill]

"the shield" pathetic attempt at a wind up......."


and to "bendo" i have 1000hrs on a c206, please tell me how i can earn $80K flying a 206!!!!!......currently 45K as a B1900 FO!!!! (thought that was a step forward!!!)

[williamsf1]

Seriously!

120k is the BARE minimum for an F/O on any 777, cruise or not!

some people are just pathetic!

[ShockWave]

For those thinking of considering the cruise f/o jobs be very careful. Your eventual competition for a slot up front may end up being all of the virgin f/o s who are more senior. Also, if the airline stays fairly small it will be a long time before you get the chance to move to the real f/o position. You will basically have to wait for people to die or retire. If your training has been minimal during this time you may now struggle to even checkout as an f/o and may get stuck as a cruise f/o or even sacked! In the mean time your flight hours and experience will not count for much and you will not be able to move on to another airline when you eventually get sick of it. You will be a slave to the airline with no way out and they know it. Can you afford to take up a job earning 45,000 for the next ten years or more and then what ever they offer you to become an f/o for another ten years? All in the hope of one day becoming a mighty aviation God (Captain) on a 777 earning a salary that is grossly beneath industry standards until you retire which will now be very soon!

Being a second officer or cruise f/o is a real job and valuable to the overall operation. You can have a great time doing it and gain experience, but it is simply not recognized as real flight hours by most airlines and will not help you get another job. Thats why you will be stuck there and at the companies mercy. Australian aviation history proves that airlines can not always be trusted to look after your career. It is your responsibility.
There are so many opportunities in Australia for inexperienced pilots at the moment that it makes much better sense to go get some real flight experience. Then you can pack your bags anytime you need to and move on to better prospects. Have some faith in yourself and remove as much reliance on you employer as you can. :ok:

[Static in the Attic]

Shockwave is so right; anyone considering a Cruise F/O position is doing his career a disservice. Aside from your log book stopping in its tracks for too many years (barring you from applying for other RHS positions when you finally realise it was a bad gamble) think very hard about the job satisfaction aspects - which in truth is why pilots fly - ie passion rather than money. You may find dest wxs / NOTAMS are barely handed to you at report, you'll not be consulted regarding fuel load, you'll get the walkarounds in the rain, inadvertantly you'll be asked to clear food trays out the F/D - and the bottom line you won't get to handle the damn thing - EVER. (and don't touch that switch sonny while I'm away)
Seriously - think very hard fellas, do the fun hard / yards on 2 crew twins / Metros / B737 etc and you'll be a better / happier pilot for it. There's still plenty of time for B777s - albeit Voz whoever. Don't end up despising your career before its even started.

[629bus]

10yrs from S/O to F/O, what a load of crap. There are big advantages in joining a new aviation company @ start up. Look @ VB, back in 2000 when they started there was guys getting jobs with the biggest thing flown previous to date being a Chieftain! 6-10mths later they were in the left seat! This worked for a while until CASA raised an eye brow and slowed it down to about 18 months. Jetstar, same scenario, quick commands @ start-up! I keep reinforcing start-up because that’s when it will work! V-Aust wont be any different, I can’t imagine any new 777 driver (s/o) with, or with out 777 time having to wait more then 18 months or a f/o slot. Now for the $$$ that’s a different issue, 45k is crap. I can’t believe they would offer something so outrageous! I would have thought it would have made much more sense to offer a little more, get the guys overseas back (who have the experience, time on type and aptitude) which will set the foundation for long term success within the company. Think about this, getting new s/o’s from within Australia with 4000hrs TT. Never flown a jet, why is this? Does this mean that they could not get jet job any where else? A s/o is a future captain right? Hmm.. pay peanuts get monkeys! And the silly think is it would not take to much more money to get the “right” guys!
Just my 2 random cents worth!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[galdian]

629bus
Initially read your post and was ready to have a go - but you're pretty spot on, albeit with some reservations.

They are taking the LCC approach - the bottom feeders of the crew (ie anyone less than the designated PIC/Captain) will be paid what they can get away with; the dollars will be saved for the guys who will go to gaol if anything screws up (the designated PIC/Captain, strangely enough probably no one from C&T or management!)

The level of training (or lack therof) will be of little, or no, consequence in a court of law; the PIC/Captain will be the fall guy.

The postings so far have very little mention of PIC/Captain positions - there's a reason for that!

One point - the situation in Oz over the last 5-10 years has changed hugely, whether any individual perceives it as right or wrong it is now a totally free market where paying for endorsemants/moving ahead with unprecedented speed is the go.
Times change (also standards :suspect: )

Don't knock the kids - if they perceive there's a benefit they will live or die (or go somewhere fast or not at all) in their decisions.

Somethings, gladly, do NOT change! :ok:

[Bendo]

"bendo" i have 1000hrs on a c206, please tell me how i can earn $80K flying a 206!!!!!......

Simple - the owner of the company comes from outside aviation and provides aviation services to people from outside Aviation.

Neither he nor his clients would expect a professional with our level of training and industry experience to earn half to 30% of what a coal miner earns.

...and he didn't read the award before he offered me the contract :ok:

[oldsmithy]

Shame on any PROFESSIONAL PILOT even turning up for the interview.... $45,000 is just out right insulting, how can someone spend a fortune to learn this game and then get shafted by any and every airline out there.

Please anyone considering going for this interview you may want to seriously look at other options. This means a very bleak outlook in the Australian job scene. At the end of the day money talks and bullS*** walks. I thought we had a Pilot shortage in Australia. With pay offers like this I can see why....................

[intotheblue]

Two points to consider though.

1. It's good "interview experience" for the candidate anyway if they have the time to show up.
2. Wouldn't the message to the prospective employer go a little deeper when the candidates start pulling thier applications after turning up "meeting and greeting" and finding out what's really on the table.

:)







1st post done and dusted!

[Howard Hughes]

I don't know where this figure of $45,000 comes from, it seems to be getting lower and lower! My sources tell me the initial offer was almost double that, but the actual figure will be disclosed at the interviews along with pertinent rostering information.

I know several people who have 6000-10,000 hours plus who have interviews, none of these people would be attending for $45,000. I expect with Qantas at one end of the scale on $100K+ and Jetstar on the other at $55K for the same position, I expect that VA will fall somewhere in between and that $45K is way off the mark.;)

629Bus, there are people in australia with considerably more experience than 4000 hours who have never applied to any major Aussie airline, myself included! Many of these people may be interested in hearing what VA has to say, then making up their minds, this certainly does not make them monkeys...

[KittyBlue]

With all this chatter an info?

What are the facts? The real facts and not what 'i have heard' facts!

It seems to have been muddled in the post.

[oldsmithy]

This is the pay amount emailed to me. When my interview details were sent to me Howard Hughes, so the amounts are factual.

[Bendo]

I have an email here from Maddy stating that pay for a cruise FO will be $40-$60k including super.

It also states that they will roster you for 1000 hours/year.

If they start giving out DECs and DEFOs then christ only knows how long you will stay a SO.... so, bugger that. :mad:

[Howard Hughes]

Ouch, that's gotta hurt!:ouch:

[bunglesboy]

Hi Folks

I have been reading some posts with interest regarding VA's pay and conditions. I think some of you need to check the emails that you were sent and re read them. Some of your facts are a little off. Below is an extract of the email sent to me. It may clear up some of the errors in some of the threads.

"Although salary has not yet been finalised you can expect a salary range between $45,000 - $60,000 per annum*. This is a total salary and includes superannuation and incentive payments. Cruise Relief First Officer salary will be in two bands, with your level of experience determining your banding. V Australia will pay for endorsement costs, and a bond period will apply".

"The V Australia Fatigue Risk Management System will permit rostering to a maximum of 1000 hours per annum and rosters will be based on a 28 day cycle. You will be guaranteed 9 days off in any roster period at your home base, and you will receive 42 days annual leave".

Personally I think those of you with an interview offer should attent and hear exactly what is on offer with regards to pay, upgrade times, etc. This is the only way to get the truth, and then make up your own minds. If you don't like what you hear then with draw your applicaction. If you do, then take the job - it's that simple. :ok:

[Fenwicksgirl]

So Bungles, you have basically just confirmed what the others have said so i dont think there is any need to re check e mails. No matter how you look at it, it is crap pay and for 1000 hrs per year of relief over the pond, i would recommend the younger ones to think carefully!!!!

[Howard Hughes]

In the spirit of the thread title, tell me it ain't true...:{

[AndDee]

IF these pay conditions are correct, I don't really see why anyone would take the job.

Also when are they going to launch fare/routes ?

[oldsmithy]

If you take those pay conditions I will buy the paint for you all. I hear you ask what the paint is for, so you can paint a big old "L" on your forehead.






Cheers

[muttly's pigeon]

629Bus,

VB has had an impressive growth story but lets not forget that they where handed half the market on a plate with the collapse of Ansett, I think its fair to say the long-haul venture will see a bit more competition from the established players.

[Kangaroo Court]

They are obviously aware of that; given the miserable starting salary. So am I to read that they have done away with pay for an endorsement altogether, or just "V"?

[ShockWave]

629..Bus...
You can not compare what is happening in GA or the domestic LCCs to what may happen in Voz. Initial orders fior 7 x 777s does not equate to continued and rapid expansion. The nearest comparrison is QF and there are many pilots there who did more than 10 years as an S/O. It all depends on how lucky you are! Will there be stagnation or expansion and what age will the guys be who hold the more senior possitions and how many aircraft will there be. The posibillity of 10 years as a cruise f/o is not crap it is a proven historical posibillity! I was told 18 months as a second officer before upgrade to an F/O slot at my interview at one stage in my career. 7 years later I was still waiting for peole to retire or die. I was very lucky to have had enough other flying experience to help me piss off elsewhere.
What ever you choose to belive it is just another gamble. You may win, you may loose. My advise to you, is to not gamble with this job uless you believe the money will be enough for you, or you have a way out, and/or you can afford to loose many years of your career.

[jed_thrust]

Bunglesboy,

Regarding maximum of 1000 hours per annum, can you confirm for me (if you know) that the CAA limit is 900 hours annually?

If so, how can they plan 1000?

:confused:

[Chocks Away]

There are many operators utilising CAO 48.0 exemptions, which includes a 1000 yearly limit instead of 900.

[F.QII]

15 hrs to the states,then 15 home = 30 ft hours so cant fly more than 3 return LA's a month! I know it's hardly the most exciting flying but it should mean lots of days off per month,ie 12-14.
Any body been told what the expected deal is for SFO's and captains? and when interviews are expected?

[Fenwicksgirl]

Take it from me, 3 long haul N.Americas in one month, ya gonna need those days off!!! Not fun!

[Howard Hughes]

15 hrs to the states,then 15 home = 30 ft hours
Keep in mind you are not at the stick for the whole thirty hours, I would imagine 20-22 hours per return trip, thats almost 50 trips per year! With six weeks off, thats more than one a week!:eek:

[Visual Landing]

If you are part of the crew, you get the lot. (I think)

[Howard Hughes]

If that is so, at least it would give you plenty of time off!:ok:

[galdian]

Might I sugget the definition of "exemption" is looked up in the good book - and no, that is NOT the bible, rather the dictionary.

Seem to remember stuff on the ME forum complaining how Emirates were using factoring on heavy crews so that, even though you were all locked up in the aluminium tubing for the same total time your "stick credit" was only a % (albeit high) of that credit time to allow for time in the bunk etc etc.

All signed off by the outstanding regulatory authorities of the region.

Now if you were Vb/Va/Vwhatever management wouldn't you be looking for a similar scenario?? :E

Whilst I have no idea what the management boyos have in their minds (do they know?) just make sure that any boys and girls signing contracts know what they are signing.
Caveat Emptor:ok:

[galdian]

Sorry HH

Should have said also - time off will depend on the roster construction and slip time in the US.
Yes - if everything falls into place exceptionally good time off.
If not - maybe the Va theme could be "we now call L.A. hommmmmm-e"

Obviously after the sterling efforts by VB to piss all and sundry off with too many overnights and poor pattern construction this will all magically change in the new entity Va!

Me thinks not but WTF would I know?? :p

[Captain Sherm]

As I understand it, the standard CAO exemption now is 100 hours flight duty (i.e. on board, not just in cockpit) in 28 days and 1000 hours a year. The exemption in any case limits duty time to 60 hours in 7 days and 100 hours in 14 days so crews' backs are covered somewhat there too. Any airline management that can't make money with those rules isn't trying.

I suppose it's always possible that V-Australia might try to get more but wouldn't count on CASA approval. This might be an area whcih could crystallize the coming together of AFAP and AIPA as any further exemptions would inevitably feed through one day to QF mainline.

[Capt Basil Brush]

They apparently plan to also fly the 777's on 'day trips' out of Sydney, ie Auckland returns and Perth returns, so say goodbye to your longhaul type lifestyle - and any ideas of commuting. It would be difficult.

So they may well get close to 1000hrs out of you, and if they can - they will! :eek:

[shaftmaster]

Interviews been going for a week now surley someone has all the facts by now????

[629bus]

Come on, who has more information? :confused:

[powersfasher]

Help please, anyone that attended the Brisbane recruiting session’s can you tell me about the group activity.

[amos2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in days gone by ANO exemptions were sought by the company, accepted by the Union and accepted by the pilots and then, and only then, operated by the pilots!

So, has the Union sold you down the drain?...or are you selling yourselves down the drain?

You wanna stick to the Regs?...then show some balls and do so!

[coaldemon]

Which union are you reffering to Amos?

[Chocks Away]

...not so silly as VB have AFAP and VIPA (spelling?) as reps.
(correct me if it's changed)


Afternote: Was a reply to previous post which has been deleted.

[amos2]

Not sure what you're getting at Coal!...

don't know what reffering means? :=

[maui]

Isn't that what happens at the futbal

M

[TAC inop.]

C'mon generation Y.
Share your interview tales with us, dont keep it to yourselves

[VONKLUFFEN]

No news good news. There must be something out there that drivers want to keep it out from becoming popular and therefore make it harder to get the seat...

[TAC inop.]

Yup, thats the 'Generation Y' kids for ya :ugh:

[ZQN]

Two Emirates trainers resigned last week and join V in early July. I believe they are both going as Check and Training Captains.

Word is that a few more 777 trainers will be leaving the sand pit in the coming months.

[629bus]

Just got the email;

S0 -93k
FO -135k
Capt - 220k

:ok:

[Break Right]

629bus

Is that including super???:confused:

[jay700]

629bus,

Any word on a commuting policy?

[Rabbitwear]

No line Captains been interviewed yet only check/trainers , im sure they are awash with applications...

[shaftmaster]

Hey 629 when did you go for the interview in AUS or HK

[629bus]

commuting will be ok, discussed @ interview. you will also get VB staff travel.

[jay700]

thanks 629bus,

i am sure everyone would appreciate any further info on what was discussed at the interview eg: expected rosters, other proposed bases and anything else of interest.