Pitts training?

[MichaelJP59]

It's a long-held ambition of mine to eventually own and fly a Pitts S-1.

Now as just over 100 hours post-ppl and no taildragger hours, any advice on the best route to get there? I guess I'll need to start on something benign first..

Thanks for any tips,
- Michael

[Weekend Flyer]

Try talking to the folks at Northampton School of Flying at Sibson - they have a Super Cub, a Tiger Moth and a two-seat Pitts. I'm sure that they could give you some helpful advice or even do all of your conversion traing for you.

[eharding]

It's a fair way from where you are, but I'd recommend training with Alan Cassidy at White Waltham.

If the S1 is your ultimate goal, then I'd recommend that the most direct transition will be by doing your whole tail-wheel conversion in the Pitts - the learning curve may seem very steep for the first couple of trips, but it will save you time & money vs. the alternative of flying a cub/decathlon/citabria/whatever to start with. The benefit of doing your Pitts conversion at WW is that if you can land a Pitts smoothly there, you won't have a problem anywhere else....

[MichaelJP59]

WW may be an idea if I could stay for a concentrated week (wx permitting). ISTR there was also somewhere in the USA that specialised in this? The trip would be no problem but I suppose then I would be into training visa complications.

[Justiciar]

I would suggest you contact Paul Ambrose at Popham, who I believe is very highly thought of. His web site is: http://www.special-flight.com/index.html
(http://www.special-flight.com/index.html)
Otherwise in the US there is Budd Davisson in Phoenix who does ab initio Pitts conversion training: http://www.airbum.com/
I do not think you need a visa for the US as you are not training for a licence or rating but really doing an extended check ride! To be on the safe side do a tail wheel conversion in the UK first.
I would have thought that some initial basic tailwheel training on something less expensive than a Pitts might be a good idea, e.g. a Cub.

[Pitts2112]

I've heard the argument for doing a tailwheel conversion straight in a Pitts but I personally think it is a rare pilot that would be able to do that without costing himself more in terms of time, money and possibly confidence. I think you'd be better off doing some tailwheel hours in something like a Cub or Citabria and really, really get your landing abilities sorted before jumping into a Pitts. Get something like 20 hours or so and get yourself to the point where you can really see the glide slope and anticipate the touchdown point, and be able to land in a variety of conditions. Whilst you could do your conversion in a Pitts, everything happens so much faster and much more extremely, that for the first few trips your head won't be able to keep up with what the airoplane is doing. You'll have that experience with nearly any taildragger, so you might as well have it first in something a lot slower and more benign.

Then any of the places mentioned will be as good as another. Alan Cassidy is known for his aerobatic instruction, and some time spent with him for competition training may be well placed, but I don't know that you'd need to go to him specifically just to convert to a Pitts if he isn't conveniently local.

That's just my .02 worth, but the world expert on landing Pitts is Budd Davison. In fact, that's all he teaches these days. Drop him an e-mail and ask him his advice. He's always been very forthcoming when I've e-mailed him questions.

Good luck and have fun in any case. The Pitts is a great machine and you'll never regret getting to know it!

Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

I know all the names mentioned and in fact have flown with/against all of them. Budd was very good for me and I would recommend him - but it is a long way to go. Cas Smith at Full Sutton is just as competent as the other schools down south and is a lot closer to you.

I had 200 hrs of tailwheel when I went to see Budd. After 6 hours in the circuit he turned me loose. Now, with 600 hours on Pitts' - I think that my earlier benign tailwheel time was certainly of benefit. In short I concur with 2112.

Justiciar, am looking forward to seeing how you fare next month! I'm sure that "he" will be gentle with you but your Cub time will help.

eharding - whilst I don't disagree with you, I'd just like you to recall all the times that you (collectively) have had me look at the underside of XG!

[MichaelJP59]

Thanks for those tips - btw stiknruda, it was the pre-PPL flight in your S2 that started the ambition so you're to blame for the ensuing expenses:)

I've checked out Budd Davison's website and a week or so in Arizona may be the best way when I have some tailwheel time. I also like the idea of a whole week's Pitts-immersion!

I don't want advanced aero, just need to get to the stage when I can confidently get in a single seat S-1 knowing I can get it (and me) down in one piece reliably in different conditions at a variety of strips.

[Pitts2112]

"just need to get to the stage when I can confidently get in a single seat S-1 knowing I can get it (and me) down in one piece reliably in different conditions at a variety of strips."

Great! When you get to that point, let me know, will you? And tell me how you got there! I've got about 200 hours in Pitts and I'm still not sure of that! :)

But, seriously, I think you're on the right track. A Pitts is something that grabs your imagination and makes you want to go out and to it right now, but it's also best learned more slowly and in depth. A few hours with an instructor in the front seat of an S-2 are the best prep you can get for landing an S-1 (after some other tailwheel experience, natch)

Pitts2112
PS - Stik's got a lot to answer for in taking people to the dark side of flying...:)

[n5296s]

Looks like you've got several possible solutions already but if you're willing to make a trip out of it then there's a lot to be said for Attitude Aviation in Livermore, CA. The instruction is excellent, they have a whole bunch of planes (you can fly a Waco when you get fed up with the Pitts), and when you're not flying, you're just a short train ride from San Francsico.

Don't underestimate the Pitts. It is a seriously hard machine to land (but an absolute delight to fly). I can't imagine doing a tailwheel conversion directly to the Pitts. It seemed hard enough in the Citabria (which is an absolute pussy cat compared to the Pitts, now I wonder what all the fuss was about).

At Attitude, although they'll happily give anyone dual in the Pitts, I think they'd expect you to do basic acro training in a Decathlon or Grob before really getting into the Pitts. In fact that's probably your best bet wherever you go. Find someone with a Decathlon, get the hang of acro and do your tailwheel conversion at the same time, and *then* move to the Pitts. Meanwhile, have some fun with dual in the Pitts as well, so you don't forget why you're doing it.

n5296s

[stiknruda]

MJP59

I remember it well - I've only recently shown my face at the Sheffield Aerobatic box again!

I also recall the earlier part of the evening with TT and FM!

Stik

[Russell Gulch]

It is a seriously hard machine to land I don't agree. It's no more "seriously hard" than most aircraft. If a spam can is so easy, how come so many lose their nosewheels?:rolleyes:

[eharding]

Stik - true, but the gent who attempted to re-arrange the aileron on MAXG at Conington last year *didn't* do his tailwheel conversion on a Pitts - I rest my case....:ok:

I can only advise from my own experience, which was a tail-wheel conversion in the S2 with AC - from the logbook, 6.4 hours and 10 sorties - before I got into MAXG. Not a lot of point blowing £100+ an hour in a cub perfecting wheelers before getting into an S1.

Haven't we had this debate before on the Proon, or was it on some other forum?

[stiknruda]

Those wheeler things are dead difficult, Ed!

Hope Max G with Min Si is at Lydd early one morning late next week - we have a date and I have a parrot!


Stik

[KZ8]

I have done my BFR with Frank at Northants School of Flying for the past few years in the Pitts and Cub and can recommend him as an excellent instructor for calm learning on the Pitts. Every flight has been a pleasure.

Life with the Davisson's in Pheonix is excellent. Great flying weather, and a very nice Pitts S-2A N8PB. Good food and excellent accomodation too if you stay at the 'B & B' (Budd and Marlene's place). Budd Davisson has been involved with the Pitts since before the prototype Pitts S-2A was built, and there is a real flavour of history when flying with Budd. The experience is a lot more than simply a check-ride in the aircraft. When I was driving him to the airfield one day, Betty Skelton (Frankman) (pilot of Little Skinker in the 1950s) phoned him to ask for Curtiss Pitts's 'phone number to say 'hello'. Budd then called up Curtiss and had a long chat. Having personnally grown up around Pitts and similar machines, I could not believe it! Talk about a front-row seat.

I think you are more likely to enjoy training on the Pitts after gaining some Cub time or equivalent. Everything is the same in the Pitts apart from the worse view, the better handling, the faster speeds and the need for more subtle control inputs. The rest is basic handling skills that can be learned in any tail dragger with a decent instructor.

There's no reason why you couldn't go straight to the Pitts, but it would be an expensive way of starting out with taildraggers. Also, you would not gain the important skills that come with flying the slower taildraggers, which teach you how to really fly.

KZ8

[eharding]

Those wheeler things are dead difficult, Ed!

Hope Max G with Min Si is at Lydd early one morning late next week - we have a date and I have a parrot!


Stik


(Shudder) - just make sure he brings the bloody thing back in one piece! - the recent attrition rate at that fixture isn't pretty......just hope Min Si doesn't take his magic talking trousers, and is wearing slightly more nimble Pitts footwear than the sodding twelve-league boots he's been wearing recently.

[eharding]

Also, you would not gain the important skills that come with flying the slower taildraggers, which teach you how to really fly.


Quite true - my experience of the Cub, for example, is that sticking your arms out and flapping can double the power-to-weight ratio......now thats *real* flying..

[KZ8]

Quite true - my experience of the Cub, for example, is that sticking your arms out and flapping can double the power-to-weight ratio......now thats *real* flying..

Sounds fun to me!

[petes1s]

I have about 200 hours Pitts S1 S. I always wanted a Pitts etc

My conversion route was not deliberate, I got into a Pitts S1 only when one became available to buy at the right time/price etc.
I did 5 hours Citabria/Decathlon, then 300 ish hours Wittman Tailwind interspersed with some S-2A time on G-WREN at NSF.

For me, the Wittman Tailwind hours were very useful because it is also a fast landing tail dragger, short and squirelly with powerful/sensitive controls. i.e. I was very used to Pitts speed approaches, recognising excessive sink and keeping it straight and not overcontrolling.

Once in a Pitts S1, all that was left was being able to do it all within the runway boundaries without any forward vision - which is what makes the last bit of the landing (speed, attitude, direction, height) so very interesting.

So I'd say Citabria/Cub etc time is not that useful after about the first 5 hours, but what is useful is something fast and demanding.

e.g. unless you have a Tailwind or similar - bash round the circuit in a hired S2 until the owner lets you go solo, then do quite a bit more solo S2 until you get into your own baby.


Petes1s

[stiknruda]

Hello Pete!

Having not been to RM's recently, is the new one almost there yet?


Stik

[MichaelJP59]

Pete, from your thoughts about solo in an S2 for a while before an S1, does that imply the S1 is trickier than the S2?

And can anyone give guidance on landing distances, i.e. a reasonable minimum strip length for basing one at?

[stiknruda]

With equal time in both: the S2 is about 20% easier to land on a bad day than the S1 - from the back! On a good day with wind down the slot there is not much in it.
The S2 from the front is as close as you will get to simulation for the S1. The S1 is marginally easier than the S2 from the front.
Can you see where this is going? I mean the above comments, not the flare to touch-down phase!
After 6 hrs with Budd landing at a £uck-off long/wide American strip, I had no problems putting my own S1S down on the shorter r/way at Leicester on my second landing. It wasn't a pretty landing but it was safe and didn't endanger me or the machine that I'd built.
Having said that, it is very rare these days when I need more than 300yds to put it down and stop it. That's 300 from the threshold. The very fact that more is available can be very useful. Take-off in the S1S - routinely airborne within 150yds.
The "avoid-bit" on landing is coming down the centreline unless you are at landing somewhere big - you just lose all clues, includingthe r/way! The most dangerous wind is a quartering tailwind - ie, it's 90 degrees across but occasionally kicks in from behind you - the extra float and increased g/s are good indicators, but if you are tired - these are easy to miss. Tired, well it is pretty easy to knacker yourself after a session of high G change maneouvers at the beginning of the season! Neg 3 to Pos 6 is a whole 9 G change and is best avoided till G-fit.
S1S - final at 90, last look over the hedge, 85mph
S2A - final at 90, last look over the hedge, 85 - unless heavy then 90mph
S2B/C final at 100/110 last look 90 unless 2 up then about 95+mph
The hardest thing to teach/educate IMHO is when to leave it alone and when you need to do something. That just comes with time on type, I guess. As most Pitts sorties are around the 20 minute mark, you do get to log your fair share of landings!
Michael - if you want to buy one, give me a bell and I'll help.
And a last point, it is highly unlikely that you'll get to fly your chosen one until you actually pay the money! So someone who is known to the owner might just be allowed to fly it!
Hope this helps
Stik

[MichaelJP59]

Very helpful Stik, and as per your last point, I was wondering how that would work and thanks for the offer:) Anyway trip to the USA for some concentrated training is the next step I think.

[petes1s]

It's coming along

[petes1s]

Michael

The S1 is trickier in some ways, easier in others.
for instance, S1 landings are shorter than S-2A and especially S-2B landings because of the extra inertia of the S-2.
e.g. at Leicester and White waltham - you can often get a S1 stoppped before the intersection.

what I meant was - you have to get experience in a fast taildragger rather than a docile one, and no-one is going to let you loose in their own S1 as Stik says. So building experience in various conditions in an S2 is a good idea.

You could do the bare minimum in an S2 an jumo into your shiny new S1 - but inevitably the next 10hours or so are going to be dangerous. There have been a number of accidents to show the truth of that.

also - you may not be able to get insurance for your new S1 these days until you've built some 2 seater hours

[n5296s]

I don't agree. It's no more "seriously hard" than most aircraft.

I have to say that this is one of the daftest things I've read on a usually fairly sensible forum. The author is either the second coming of Chuck Yeager, or a blaggart. (And since Yeager is still alive, I know where my money is).

Sure, landing any aircraft takes a bit of practice, and most of us remember the sheer terror of our first few dozen landings in a 172 or whatever. But the Pitts takes it to a whole new level. Even when landing a "normal" plane - including a taildragger - is second nature, it still takes a lot of practice to land the Pitts at all, never mind elegantly. I've landed an L-39 and a B-25 and found both of those amazingly easy to land. I would never say that about the Pitts. Every landing is a challenge. That's why I always terminate an acro session with at least three of them.

My Pitts instructor - 10,000+ hr USAF instructor pilot - asserts that the only plane that is harder to land than a Pitts is a U2. (He flew those for a while too). Most of us will never get to find out.

n5296s

[Derby Ram]

Well, one of the best ways to a Pitts, if you intend to own one that is, is to go to Sibson and have a few hours with Frank McClurg.
Frank is CFI there and trains pilots on G-WREN, probably one of the best known Pitts`s in the country. It`s an S2A which is probably one the best harmonised models in the family.

Frank`s affable and laidback style make it a pleasure to fly the Pitts. You will soon find out if you have "what it takes to fly one".

I have probably a couple of hundred Pitts landings and every one was different. Huge fun.

[slackie]

n5296s - gotta say I disagree! I don't consider myself "Yeager II" but I find that even though the Pitts (S2B in my case) commands absolute attention for EVERY landing, it is not particularly "difficult". The Pitts seems to have a reputation for being "squirrelly", but I find it does EXACTLY what you tell it...if you make a whole heap of small control inputs then it obeys every command. The secret?? Get speed under control on finals, set the landing attitude accurately, hang on and it seems to work every time. You do need to keep on top of things as speed reduces, but again, don't over control...biggest secret is to keep flying the aircraft until it is tied down or in the hangar!!!

[stiknruda]

Slackie, IMHO the two-holers (and the S2S) are easier to land, by which I mean tend to run straighter with all three wheels on the ground - and it is all very comparitive, than the single seaters. My landing is not over until I am safely outside the aircraft with a cup of tea or a beer in my hand.
The maingear to tailwheel couple on the single seater is significantly shorter than the two seaters.
The very first single seaters had an even shorter (3") fuselage than the 1C/D/E/S and from these the tree-rat reputation spawned.
Michael - depending on your weight/budget do not discount the C.
The D/E/S all have 4 ailerons as opposed to the 2 on the C and have a 100lb greater MAUW to boot. Not inconsequential if you are "average" size and want to take advantage of full tanks and remain in the CoG envelope!

[On the Spot]

Not aspiring to the level of a Pitts (yet). But just a comment as I was at about the same level in hours as the author and fund that even a couple of hours practice landings in a basic tailwheel aircraft (converted Pacer with the rudder aileron linkage removed) had a noticeable beneficial effect on my landings thereafter.
I really had to fly the aircraft down to the deck and on the tarmac which has given my feet something to do ever since and in comparison to my normal fare of spam cans here it had been a somewhat more automatic process.
I think I would take it in stages as it is all a good investment.

[HappyJack260]

If you want to fly a Pitts, and have a holiday in a great part of the world at the same time, try Airborne Aviation just outside Sydney. At current Australian $ values the $428 hourly rate is about 183 GBP/hr. Sign a declaration that you're working towards a CPL and the GST comes off, bringing the price to about 165 GBP/hr. That's about 30% less than the Decathlon I flew at Kemble last week. They've also a Citabria if you want to do a couple of hours tailwheel time first in something less challenging than the Pitts.

Website is www.airborne-aviation.com.au or call +612 4655 7200.

[air18150]

I had some dual (front seat) training in an S2B recently in preparation for the possibility of some S1 flying. I have a little over 150 hrs of tailwheel time mostly in a much lower performance but aerobatic biplane. The view was not as bad/limited as I had feared, but the steepness and speed of the approach was at first daunting. The speeds we used were bang on what `stik` suggested in his earlier post. Once the instructor had got me to pick a sensible point at which to start descending (closer than I thought!) and to start the descent at the correct speed it all came togther. I thought the `B` was less tail happy on the ground than the `A` in which I have a small amount of time - but this might just be because I have more general tailwheel time now than when I was in the `A`, also being in the front probably gives a different impression of what is happening at the back! I know all the S1`s are consideably more lively on the ground. As well as circuit work PFL`s etc there was also time for some gentle aeros and some spinning. What a lovely aeroplane, poweful light well harmonised controlls with feel and feedback through ones hands and feet. I loved it!