Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[Flugbegleiter]

You know, I find this short haul union really weird. Imagine if it were the other way around, that WE were the ones who earned less money and had to do higher hours. THEY were the ones who earned more and had better conditions. Do you really think we would go and chase after their work and try and take it away from them?? I don't think so! I think that those who liked the idea of doing their flying would simply apply for a transfer.

I don't understand why short haul wants to undercut us and try and take what has been traditionally OUR work. With the regional flying agreement, they have taken a lot of our work and they are often doing it for less money than we get. If some of them had really wanted to do international flying, they always could have transferred to long haul to do that flying and do it under our pay and conditions.

samford said in post #731 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3754391&postcount=731):
I spoke to the Domestic FAAA yesterday, and negotiations for the SH EBA is due to commence in Jan. I was told "we will take all the flying we can get", its that attitude which should give some warning to you all.

"We will take all the flying we can get"? This union is dangerous and short-sighted. I hope this statement is not true, but it shows another reason why it is important to get this new EBA up and protect ourselves.

We need to get our regional flying back. Regional flying is still international flying and we are supposed to be international crew.

[crewbunkbonker]

Regarding the "access" to the new aircraft with salary protection" I understand that this means that if we ask to fly on this for 2 years we go under the b- scale rule?? if that is true? if so where is the "protection"?!?! thats not good enough! we should be able to fly on all long-hall aircraft with the pay and hours that we deserve. and if by chance the eba8 is voted "no" (and if it is, you lot will turn cause it doesn't suit your selfish selves) isn't it possible the union goes back to the table? Their are a few other holes too..why does that sound like the end of the world for you? too much work? remember the law is fairer now that labor is in..fight it! we deserve to be treaded fairly..Stop trying to snow everyone over like a crooked John Howard! yes I'm talkin to you M&R!:(

[nite walker]

Er ahhh have you been paying attention to anything that is happenning around you mate?
Forget the faaa guys, observe these few points.
previous officials one mentioned earlier(LD) agreed to a foreign cap of 870. Not Mij or Reed other officials who were good guys.legal advice was there was nothing they could do to stop it.
This was the beginning of the Thai basing, it was then joined by the kiwi base.
The london base then became reality. Because of the precedent agreed to by the former officials ( they were told by legal advice they could not stop this either.). Mij couldn't stop the London base. He did put out several news letters requesting that we do not apply. This was ignored as you would know.
Yes people wanted to go over on bugger all pay and no conditions, it was life style.
Meanwhile short haul agree to an eba which effectively gave them our regional flying and reduced our band payments if we transferred across.
Mij did get us access(exclusive to the A380) as part of that div flying agreement. For Mij to get our regional glying back appreciating that a #&&%tload of 787s have been ordered he had to re - open the div flying agreement.
So now you say lets vote no and go back to the Company and they will give us the pay and conditions we deserve.
Crew bunk:D you ought to go into comedy.
We all know what we deserve and it has not been any of the above!
As Hawke said earlier Rudd is not going to help us other than make sure we cant be sacked and replaced by cheaper, and we cant be forced on contracts.
What will happen if we vote no is we will be left on the 747 until it dies off. end of story.there is nothing stopping the Company giving that aircraft to CCaustralia to operate, then the company could argue because there are no 747s for us its redundancy time. Not much we can do when jetstar crew have created a new entry wage into international flying and short haul have a better formula for regional. I wonder if short haul would agree to long haul flying in their next eba?
going back to the company and arguing for what we deserve might be morally right but if you look at the landscape surrounding us its like your suburb is surrounded by fires and you want to argue with the council on better fire restrictions and burning off. Its too late, you try and protect your house with a hose and rudd(the firbrigade) might help.
They will put the fire out but he wont help you rebuild whats been burnt.

Crewbunk you sound very naive to the machinations of how all this industrial stuff works.the company have had almost 1000 mam casuals ready for this eba(cabin crew australia) and aussies have had to live in NZ to fly for qantas.

You think we vote no and swan back into the company and they will give you what you (we ) deserve.
For sure they will but i dont think it will be what you expect;)
Go to a meeting , ask your questions. By the way doom and gloom aside after shaking my head when reading your post it did make me smile:ok:

[Pegasus747]

to the last poster..


Go back to the table????? You must be kidding

The FAAA has been putting this EBA together for 2 years. It links all 7 previous EBA's into one EBA.

It provides that All new aircraft that Qantas flys internationally will be flown by current long haul crew under their current hours and money.

The Labour goverment wont change any laws that would affect this EBA for at least six months and even then there is nothing better that we are likely to get out of Qantas than we have got here.

The last poster is clearly a short haul flight attendant who wants the EBA defeated so that the introspective and short sighted among them will get a chance to grab the 787 and more international flying.

99% of crew in Long Haul are intelligent enough to see our position and make sensible decisions. they know that this is a great EBA considering our circumstances and they will not listen to the likes of crewbunkbonker who doesnt know his ass from his elbow.

They certainly wont listen to former failed FAAA officials who arent even FAAA members and are more opposed to the current FAAA officials than the EBA itself.

If anyone here thinks that they can do a better deal than the FAAA has done then they can approach Qantas for an AWA .....they are still legal and if the genuises our there (that form a small noisy minority) are so smart lets see what you can get for yourself.

The FAAA have had a QC and one of the toP IR Barristers as well as the FAAA lawyer and three senior officials negotiate this EBA. If they recommend this deal as a good deal then i would suggest that it makes sense to listen to them.

To anyone that has an opposing view that's fine. You then need to suggest what leverage that crew have to get something better????

The only thing that would be better would be if the A380 was just another aircraft that we flew. That is NOT going to happen. Qantas has decided it will be another DIVISION and the FAAA have negotiated tranfers rights for Long Haul Crew with Salary protection.

If the EBA goes down Qantas will still have the A380 as a different work force as the law allows it. WHat is guaranted in that scenario is that the 787 is then up for grabs by the A380 group or short haul. Furthermore, no new aircraft will come into the Long Haul arena and we will slowly dissappear with CR over the next couple of years as our work would be given to others.

The company has agreed to cap overseas crew numbers as part of this EBA. If its defeated then there will be no limit to overseas crew or promotions in NEW ZEaland. The 80 CSM positions and 160 CSS positions just advertised will be cancelled , the regional flying will stay with short haul and long Haul crew will then look for someone to blame.

The only difference is that they wont know WHO to blame because the opposition is ANONYMOUS....and if you understand what i have just said you will know WHY they will want to remain ANONYNOUS

[nite walker]

peg i dont think im the last poster you are referring to, i posted then edited my mistakes then it went back on, i think you mean crew bunk. Seeing you are around is there anything you can do about mij at the meetings. alot of people are saying he speaks and doesnt let people offer up a different viewpoint without insulting them - ie "you dont know what you are talking about".is allegedly what he has said, is that appropriate?

I know he thinks he knows the truth, the facts but this is a democracy, yes he is experienced but that doesnt give him the right to be demeaning or aggressive at meetings. He may be passionate but if people feel they wont be heard or thay have a viable alternative and will be shouted down then why would people attend. Its a turn off and not very professional, (that is if that is how he is behaving), ill be attending next week i hope.

[Pegasus747]

The rates of pay for new starters will be about 34K for F/A 55K for CSS and 70K for CSM. These are salarys based on 240 hours per roster, however crew on the new entry conditions will average about 220 hours.

Overtime at double time will be paid between 12 and 14 hours and double time and a half will be paid after 14 hours. New crew and A380 will not be paid Long Range Allowance as well but the overtime provisions as aforementioned will be paid.

New crew will not be able to apply for CSS for 2 years and 4 years for CSM. Any crew fromm current long haul that go to A380 will work under the hours and work rules that will exist there, but will essentially take their current incomes with them through a salary top up arrangement negotiated as part of EBA8.

In relation to the conduct at the FAAA meetings it would be fair to say that members and officials can get animated and passionate, but i dont believe that anyone has been insulted or shouted down as has been suggested.

There have been a few members that have had a concluded view about the EBA before coming to the meetings and have made comments that have been inconsistent with the truth or more importantly the FACTS.

The comments made by nite walker are in that context. That is not to say that we cant all try to remain calm and polite whether FAAA official or member and the point is taken :)

However nite walker please be aware that there are some who want to see the EBA defeated for "political reasons" and are being deliberately misleading at the meetings and this does tend to imflame passions.

The FAAA officials stayed for 5 hours on Friday i am advised to remain until every member had their questions answered. That has never ever happened before, and on that basis flight attendants can be sure that no attempt to railroad crew will take place

[nite walker]

Peg your comments are appreciated but you must admit MM does have a reputation of getting very "animated" at times. Your defence is admiarable but he must tone it down if he wants to hold the respect of the membership.

This stand over eba tactics of delivering ebas has been the case with former officials from time to time but it is no longer appropriate. Union thuggery went out with the 70s, or so i thought, thanks again and good to see a first with staying till all questions answered.:D Give it time some of the knockers will find fault with that too:ugh:

[Pegasus747]

The EBA provides for 4 years under the EBA for CSM and 2 years for CSS. That however is only in relation to 747/787/A330 land.

Given the anticipated growth projected in the A380 Division, its conceivable that they may have trouble attracting enough crew from the current world who are eligible for promotion. On that basis, the EBA provides that the 4 years and 2 years does not apply in A380 division.

All promotion will be merit selected and the negotiations contemplated a vast array of experience that candidates for promotion bring to the job

[call button]

Has it been revealed who will be running QCCA? Is this company to be totally run by Qantas? What happens at a later stage if they decide to sell the company? Are any present or past Union officials to profit from this company?

Have these questions been addressed at the meetings?

Does anyone know what arrangements are in place for shorthaul cabin crew to transfer to longhaul, should this EBA get up?

[mrpaxing]

my thoughts are that MAM casuals will be offered to transfer accross to a permanent position. given that the former union official made 1,5mill in profits out of casuals last year,QF has finanlly woken up that the can do it in-house and save a bucket load of money. that should give them an excuse to increase their own wages and bonuses. :hmm:

[Pegasus747]

QCCA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways Limited. There is no partnership between this company and MAM or any other organisation. The listed directors are Peter Gregg and Geoff Dixon who are directors of QAL.


The LH officials insisted that the EBA contain a clause that ensures that swap arrangements between LH/SH remain and that any SH crew that come to long Haul get the same pay and conditions as current crew. Which is more than was done by SH when their EBA denied long haul crew the more lucrative bands payments

[indamiddle]

everyone needs to consider the long term and how it affects each individual.
if u are retiring in the next 5 years or so it is a great deal and no real changes unless you intend to fly regional (shorter slips) or A380 (220-240 hours).
if u have a significant time beyond 5 years to retirement then seniority will be boosted, 'b'
scale crew will outnumber crew and reasonably carry the vote in faaa elections and eba negotiations will be in their control. who can tell if they will be kind or not to 'a' scale crew but i wouldn't bet a beach house on it.
if u haven't been to a meeting yet, go.
think about your future.

[Pegasus747]

the point that indamiddle raises is a most valid one...all FAAA members should attend a union meeting ask questions and listen to the comprehensive briefing.

BA introduced a "B" scale about 12 years ago in order to protect existing jobs and continue recruitment. Cathay have had it with Pilots for many years , auto workers in the USA have done it and so did the ASU with QF ground staff in 1996. Its not a unique thing that FAAA members have asked there officials to consider.

As far as being outnumbered i think that we collectively will work to improve the new entrants pay and conditions over the years. There is no evidence in any of the other places where new entry rates have been introduced that has led to some sort of unbalanced revolt by new ppl over time.

Just as the current crew have not tried to get rid of those on Division 1 super which is better than all of ours neither will the new crew. If they were on a separate EBA and not connected to us there might be problems.

But under the one EBA we will all be in it together and rather than the new ppl being overseas where we cant do anything for them, they will be part of our eba and we will be able to work to help them improve their conditions

[equity38]

i attended the FAAA meeting last friday, and there was certainly no shouting down of anyone, far from it, quite the opposite.

MM made a point of saying all questions should be asked and all questions would be answered irrespective of how long the meeting went.

It was also quite clear there were several people there who were determined to make quite silly points, almost as if they wanted to disrupt things. One guy suggested to MM that the overseas based crew numbers should be increased!! Do you believe that??

When MM asked him for alternatives this guy got very irritated. So it was not MM who prevented anyone asking questions or putting their view.

Mijatov also said anyone who believes this is a bad EBA should vote against it.

I think nite walker should go to an FAAA meeting rather than relying on nonsense from others about something that did not happen.

4 of my friends went on various days last week as well. They all said how well MM ran the meetings and they were impressed about the detail he went into.

Like the anonymous email that is being spread against the EBA i think the same people are coming on here now and spreading nonsense about MM, SR and the FAAA.

[ruffrider747]

good on ya pegasus 747 at least the long haul union have some decency, not only did short haul union fleece long haulers of their flying they punished them further by classing them as new entrants giving them substantially less band payments then their short haul collegues. Now they short haul are up in arms what hypocracy!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:It shows Long Haul union has principles. Short Haul Union didnt even bother rectifying this in the last eba because quite frankly they didnt give a toss about long haulers they never have, I say good on you long haulers get back what is rightfully yours and vote this eba up nothing wrong with asking or being suspicious but at least ask the union and get the facts:D:D

[call button]

Ruffrider

Just remember that more than half of shorthaul are ex-longhaulers, and thus made up a large percentage of those voting in the last EBA.

Its good to know that shorthaul can transfer to longhaul on 'A Scale' conditions, but I wonder how many transfers the company will allow.

Can anyone tell me how many hours part time longhaul FA's have to work per bid period.

[alpine57]

The people behind the anonymous email are Leanne Dalton, Mark Cooper and a few others. Apparently, Gregg Broom and Troy Warner are also part of the same group trying to stir the pot over the new EBA.

Geez imagine that sorry lot negotiating for us...... f*****g frightening!

No wonder the crap they are spreading is anonymous - its so silly and if they came out publicly they would be laughed at.

[nite walker]

Alpine, you have named people responsible for an anonymous email, if i were one of those people named and i had not been involved i would not be too happy with you. You talk about spreading ridiculous emails, how ridiculous is yours when i know one name you mentioned was not an author of the document. How do I know, I asked him and he told me.
This isnt the first time names have been mentioned on here and the accusation has been way off the mark.
I do agree with your comment and other peoples any document for or against this EBA giving information, advice or otherwise should be signed. Waste of time writing it if it isnt signed!
Alpine a word of advice dont use peoples names on here unless what that person has been referred to is on the public record - in other words it did happen, there were several witnesses and it is FACT!!!!!!! not hearsay, not rumour, not wishful thinking.:=
Do the right thing and retract / delete their names! When you ask them ask if you can use their names, if they say no ask why???

[alpine57]

im not retracting anything...i have an email that has been spread by Mark Cooper , that starts with Leanne Dalton asking Mark Cooper to spread the address to this crap that is being poster on TUF07.*************

Heaps of other crew have it as well.

Nite walker is only too happy to spread lies about Mijatov supposedly shouting at people at meetings, but is very defensive of actual emails being spread by the people i named.

Very defensive...i wonder why?????????

[Pegasus747]

i am not so much interested in who is spreading information via anonymous emails, i am more interested in WHY?

i think that the EBA is extremely good under the circumstances and in the light of what we are facing

[nite walker]

Alpine, fair enough if you have an email trail that is proof these people are passing it around, it doesnt mean they wrote it.
My earlier post stated MM gets very animated at times. Listen Alpine i have seen MM with my own eyes on many occassions and he has a way of running a meeting which can be intimidating for many, being told you dont know what you are talking about because you persue a different point of view is not an appropriate response. I dont think i am Robinson Caruso holding this point of view.
Alpine i am a supporter of neither side, im like many others trying to evaluate all the info and make the right decision.

[Guardian1]

nite walker i have seen MM on many more occasions than you...i can assure you of that:)

He has never told any member at any meeting "you dont know what you are talking about".

Don't allow your prejudices to concoct observations that have never occurred. He (MM) is passionate a quality and trait that is too often lacking in most elected people.

Don't get confused nite walker ... MM challenges people who assert fantasy...he asks for alternatives from those who put forward fantasy...
it is easy for those who have no alternatives... to spread stories.. that they felt "intimidated".

It is a fact, that individuals when confronted by someone who is knowledgeable, and who disagrees with them, often resort to claiming they are "intimidated".

I know MM, he doesn't mind differences of viewpoint.... but what he does mind..is individuals who deliberately mislead or who would lead 3000 people to disaster if their zany, fanciful views were ever to be implemented.

[AlphaLord]

There are three factors to the current Equation
1. The EBA itself
2.The people of integrity, intelligence and passion who negotiated the EBA
3.The cowardly buffoons of no character,no alternative and no substance who ,for their own petty agenda are seeking to undermine the EBA
Those in the third facet dont want you to know their names.Once you know their names you will treat them with the contempt they deserve.These are sad angry lonely people who want things their way.They bear grudges for having been shown to be thoroughly inept in their negotiation of the previous EBA.These are yesterdays people whose egos are damaged by their own stupidity.
Are you frightened by their vacuous plot of misinformation?Then you are part of the minority of crew who are not clever enough to know when they have been handed a gift.
Its always exciting to be involved in making a decision but you first need all the truth and all the facts.Sort out what is important and what is not.
Show some strength of character and independence and arrive at your own decision.Dont let some dysfunctional ego make the decision for you because you cant be bothered to attend a meeting or make a phone call.
MM SR and Co.derive no material gain from all this other than the satisfaction that they gain from knowing that they fought the good fight and achieved an excellent outcome.
Passion,hardwork,integrity and intelligence on the part of the FAAA have brought us to where we are.
Dont let the small barking dogs take you to another place of despair and failure.Thats where they already reside.Misery rejoices in its own company....for a little while

[ruffrider747]

i totally agree MM is a saviour to you guys wake up and smell the coffee he will always answer your calls i have found him to be reliable and answer my calls personally, I am not even CONNECTED WITH THIS union i am an outside observer who was once amongst your ranks, lets say i was born a long hauler and am very loyal to the good people from long haul.Listen to this team and get the facts you are indeed lucky with what his team has done for you.
ps agree with everything you say Alphalord:ok:

[ruffrider747]

Call button,
most of the long haulers feel the same as you guys, I say once a longhauler always a long hauler, we understand your world.It was 'apparantly' the brisbane and melbourne based old TAA hosties that voted those last two eba's in having no regard for long haul glad to steel their flying and allow them to be paid less;they have always envied long haulers, two different worlds. You have a great culture over there and at least MM is trying to salvage it and at the same time he even has allowed short haul to transfer without penalising them, you can't say Short Haul has done that, they really could'nt care less about long haul.It's a shame they feel that way.
If this gets voted down I know the Short haul union will say oh we'll do whatever you want give us regional and A380 we'll do it for much less and we won't even ask for the fine print!!!

[indamiddle]

ruffrider, you are so right, those ex longhaulers in shorthaul will shaft us. only current longhaulers have any integrity
just joking! ....everyone is out to protect their own nether regions, so could we please stop pretending either short or longhaul have any rights to the moral high ground. this is about survival for the next five years and no further

[mrpaxing]

all those "old domestic boilers" lining up to do the swan song in longhaul should go to the bottom of the senority list. don't need their attitude in LH:yuk:

[qfcabin]

The TUF07 anonymous email reads as if someone who has no understanding of the current offer had a few round midnight and slurred their way to the keyboard. What a disgrace!

[DEFCON4]

10 December 2007


Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
FAAA EBA VIII IN - PRINCIPLE AGREEMENT - SUMMARY
EBA DOCUMENT DETAILS

1. 5 year EBA
2. The EBA 8 Document is a comprehensive document that consolidates all previous EBA's into one document
3. It is divided into 3 parts
4. Part A applies to all Long Haul Crew -current and new entrants
5. Chapter 1 - applies only to current long haul crew
6. Chapter 2 - applies to all new entrants
Please note ALL new crew will be employed under this same EBA (EBA 8)

PAY INCREASES AND HOURS

1. 3% per annum
2. $3000 sign on Bonus
3. No increase in hours for current crew
4. Salary Sacrifice for Compulsory Superannuation contributions for Division 1, 2 and 3. Division 6 already has this ability. (An effective ongoing pay rise of between 1.2% to 2.3% depending on classification and QF Super Division).
5. Extension of Salary Sacrifice to all long haul crew -Novated lease on motor vehicles, laptop computers and childcare
6. Minimum Company Superannuation contribution for new employees in accumulation funds (division 6) will be increased from 9% to 10%
7. London free upgradeable ticket continues for those who have not used it.

GROWTH AND JOB SECURITY

1. A planned extra 2000 new Australian jobs into L/H, 1039 of these into the "Mohican" pool.
2. 550 extra new Australian jobs into the "Mohican" pool alone by June 2008.
3. Up to 80 CSM and 160 CSS promotional positions imminent for existing L/H crew
4. Extra crew member on 747's with Premium Economy class.
5. Transfer out of BNE and MEL bases to SYD and MEL will now be possible.

FLYING / AIRCRAFT AND OVERSEAS CAP

1. The FAAA has secured the continuation of the overseas cap at 870 or 25%, which provides for guaranteed growth in onshore new hires if Qantas wishes to increase the overseas establishment.
2. Restrictions on promotions overseas maintained except for the London Base
3. All new internationally configured wide bodied aircraft operated by Qantas Airways will be flown by crew covered by EBA 8. In terms of new aircraft orders this applies to the 787 Dreamliner Aircraft.
4. Currently, Long Haul crew are guaranteed 30% of the flexible flying pool "regional flying" and Short Haul 25% with the Company able to choose where the remaining 45% is allocated.
5. The FAAA has secured Qantas' 45% of the flexible flying pool for the Long Haul division on top of the 30%, which effectively gives Long Haul crew 75% of regional flying. International flying is now back where it logically belongs.
6. Continued exclusive access to one London flight per day excluding A380

BIDDING SYSTEM

1. The bidding system in its current form will continue to apply to existing crew.
2. New entrants will either be assigned to A380 or to Current Long Haul flying. Their rosters will ONLY be constructed and assigned after existing long haul crew have bid for work. Flying will NOT be withdrawn for the new entrants, and slots on aircraft will NOT be withdrawn and reserved for the new crew. This will have the effect that current junior crew at the bottom of the seniority list, will if the new EBA is approved, have all new crew coming in underneath them.

A380 OPERATIONS

1. Current long haul cabin crew will be able to apply to fly on the A380 aircraft. Crew flying A380 will only fly that aircraft and will work under Part 2 work rules which essentially mirror the London Base work rules.
2. During start up (4 aircraft) Qantas has agreed that 100% of CSM and CSS positions and 20% of other categories can be filled from the ranks of suitable current crew who apply for these positions with selection on merit.
3. Applicants will have the option to return to current aircraft after 2 years on the A380, or to remain on the A380. Returns after the 2 year period will be subject to operational requirements.
4. Current long haul crew will continue to have ongoing access to the A380 after the first 4 aircraft on the following basis - Promotion on merit to CSS and CSM vacancies and lateral transfers to all categories, subject to a 20% cap per category
5. All current crew who work on the A380 will work under A380 Pay and work rules and receive a TOP UP PAYMENT, on an ONGOING basis.
6. A380 Top up pay per fortnight for current long haul crew who choose to fly A380 is as follows, CSM $537.84, CSS $694.35, F/A $1167.39 ( all subject to 3% increases per annum as per the EBA)First 3% from 18th December 2007 already included. Flight attendant rate is higher because the CSM/CSS A380 pay rates are much closer to existing pay rates.

NEW EMPLOYEES AND A380 CONDITIONS

1. Will be covered by part 2 of EBA8
2. Fair share roster (no bid system)
3. 220 average divisor - Maximum 240 planned hours per roster (56 days)
4. Annual Salary CSM $70000, CSS $55000, FA $33475 Training $27810 ( all subject to the 3% p.a. increases from the EBA for 5 years) First 3% from 18 December 2007 already included
5. Overtime x 2 > 12 hours, Overtime x 2.5 > 14 hours
6. Incidental Allowance per flight block hour operated - $2.60 per hour
7. Higher Duties paid at appropriate rate for sectors operated
8. Meal Allowances and Accommodation as per Current Long Haul Crew
9. Sick/Carers leave - 10 days in 1st year, 15 days from second year fully cumulative
10. Bereavement leave as per policy
11. Long Service leave as per current long haul crew in part 1


COMMITMENTS ON COMPULSORY REDUNDANCY AND JOB PROTECTION

1. In the event of Compulsory Redundancy, current employees and new entrants will be treated as one pool and reverse order of seniority will be applied (a last on first off principle). This entrenches job security protection for existing crew.
2. The current Redundancy payment benefits are included in the EBA and will apply to both existing crew and new entrants
3. Overseas based crew will share any burden of Compulsory Redundancy

COMMITMENTS ON PART TIME

1. Existing crew will have unrestricted access to part- time in all categories.
2. Will be subject to phasing in based on recruitment of new crew to facilitate the release for part-time.
3. Company is offering permanent part-time.
4. Once part-time is selected then a flight attendant can only return to full time on a swap basis with another crew member in the same category wishing to become part-time, except for compassionate reasons and approval through the Alternate Employment Committee process.
5. P/T's on reserve will now have only half the number of 'A" days on their roster (19 instead of 38).

CHOICE OF SUPERANNUATION FUNDS

1. The EBA will reflect the ability of crew to nominate a super fund other than the Qantas Superannuation scheme which will be the default scheme where no alternate is chosen.

SLIPPING FORMULA

1. The current provisions of the EBA in relation to planned slips will remain for all patterns other than regional flying.

REGIONAL FLYING

1. In order to secure the regional flying, we had to ensure that we matched as close as possible the flexibility of the crew currently doing the flying.
2. The short haul crew do not have a planned slipping formula; they only have minimum rest provisions.
3. Whilst our current minimum rest provisions will continue to apply, we have devised a regional slipping formula to deal with minimum planned rest.
4. Regional Flying will be defined as, that flying east and west of Sydney with no more than 3 hours time change.
5. Maximum 6 day pattern
6. Minimum Planned rest in 3 slips standing alone is 50 hours

PAY PROTECTION

1. Other than bereavement leave, pay protection will be based on a rolling 42 day window exclusive of leave for recovery by the Company
2. The one assignment rule continues to apply
3. Flying line holders will no longer be able to be placed on "stand-by" as a result of pay protection.


FLIGHT DUTY LIMITATIONS

1. Single Sector (with horizontal crew rest) can be planned to 18 hours in unplanned to 20 hours. This is to take into account newer aircraft and new routes flown with different constraints due to flight times and loading of aircraft etc.
2. Multi Sector- unplanned extension to 20 hours without the requirement of the crew to vote, however, minimum rest and duty hours will be recalculated.
3. This recalculation means that if a flight is planned at 13 hours or less and is delayed, a recalculation will occur at 14 hours. If a flight is planned at more than 13 hours and a delay occurs, a recalculation will occur at 14' 30'. These recalculations mean that a flight attendant will get the additional duty hour credits (more money). At the moment crew only get the overtime over 12 hours but not additional duty hour credits.


MATERNITY LEAVE

1. Period of maternity leave will be increased from 52 to 104 weeks.
2. Period of paid maternity leave will be increased from 10 to 12 weeks.


ENTRENCHMENT INTO THE EBA FOR THE FIRST TIME OF OTHER KEY CONDITIONS

1. 1983 Meal Agreement/ Allowances incorporated into EBA.
2. LSL entitlement incorporated into EBA.

OTHER

1. Flying Line Holder cannot be now assigned a Standby when pay protected (roster stability).
2. Flight attendants with 4 years service and 2 years service can now apply for CSM and CSS positions respectively.




LEGAL ADVICE BY JIM NOLAN
Liability limited by a scheme approved under Professional Standards Legislation

Flight Attendants Association - Long Haul Division - Proposed 2008 Qantas EBA

[1] This advice addresses some of the legal issues which arose in the course of the negotiations for,
and the settlement of, the proposed 2008 EBA. The agreement had to be negotiated against the
background of the WorkChoices legislation which places significant impediments in the way of adopting
many of the agreement clauses which had been in former agreement. Importantly, these applied to
conditions such as the use of overseas bases, the 'cap' on staff numbers engaged out of those bases, staff
numbers and work guarantees, the employment of new employees, and union participation and
consultation. Equally importantly, many of these restrictions are unlikely to be removed or substantially
amended by the incoming Labor government.

[2] In addition to the express restrictions in the Workplace Relations Act (1996) introduced by the
2006 WorkChoices legislation, the decision of the High Court of Australia in Electrolux Home Products Pty Ltd v Australian Workers' Union [2005] 221 CLR 309 also marked a narrowing of the scope of the subject mater which could be contained in certified agreements.

[3] A key feature of the Work Choices legislation is the prohibition against any restriction upon the
engagement of labour via contractors or 'labor hire'. This restriction is expected to be maintained in any
new Labor legislation. This places an effective prohibition upon the capacity of unions to have any control
over the engagement of labour via contractors or 'labor hire' included in a certified agreement.

[4] Finally, there was the very real issue/threat of Qantas engaging its entire new staff via a subsidiary
company to work on new aircraft under AWAs - or under a so called 'Greenfields Agreement'. Note that
the legislation provides that a (spectacularly mis-described) 'Greenfields Agreement' can be made by an
employer with itself! - i.e. no union or employee involvement - and no 'agreement' in the ordinary sense
of that word - prior to the employment any new employees in a start up enterprise.

[5] Qantas could do these things so without reference to the Qantas award and in a manner which
would, for practical purposes, shut out any possibility for union representation for these new employees.
It should also be remembered that these AWAs [or a Greenfields Agreement] could be made for 5 years and
that any new legislation would 'grandfather' any AWAs [or Greenfields Agreement] in existence. Although
there may have been some theoretical scope to challenge a Greenfields Agreement, the legal costs and
delay entailed and other legal technicalities would have meant that for practical purposes, any such
agreement would have been impossible to pre-empt. There is a very persuasive view however, that
Qantas could have made a valid Greenfields Agreement: Brunel Technical Services Offshore Pty Ltd Bayu - Darwin Pipeline Agreement 2004 [PR950406].

The Separate Employer for New Long Haul Flight Attendants

[6] As FAAA members will now be aware, a new company has been established to hire new Qantas long
haul employees - Qantas Cabin Crew Australia ['QCCA']. It will be a party to the proposed agreement.
This expedient has been adopted because the legal restrictions are such that the pay scale for new employees could not be included in any agreement where this conflicted with the provisions of the
existing Qantas award. The award cannot be varied because of the extraordinary complexity of the
WorkChoices amendments.

[7] It should be remembered that Qantas was at liberty to establish a subsidiary company to employ
Flight attendants and that it could do so on AWAs. It had already done so with the creation of Jetstar and
could have done so again. Alternatively, as I have already observed, it could - arguably - have created a
'Greenfields Agreement' and thus pre-empted any probable removal of, or restrictions upon, AWAs by the
incoming labor government.

[8] Faced with these alternatives, in all the circumstances it was judged that a single collective,
union agreement between the FAAA, on the one hand, and the two companies - and Qantas and ACCA, on
the other - was the much preferable choice. The Workplace Relations Act (1996) allows for the making of
a single, collective, union agreement with two companies which are related companies in a similar
enterprise. Qantas and ACCA qualify as such.

[9] The collective, union agreement provides very real and significant advantages for all employees -
including the new employees albeit that the starting rates of pay for those new employees are less than
those provided under present long haul award rates. First and foremost it gives legitimacy to union
organisation at the workplace, and assists in cementing collective rights in the workplace. It provides for
a single uniform standard for grievance resolution. New employees will also receive conditions of
employment superior to JetStar AWAs and better than those which would likely have been offered under
AWAs (or any 'Greenfields Agreement'). Examples of these conditions will be distributed to FAAA
members.

Overseas Bases

[10] As indicated above, the previous clause which placed limitations upon Qantas' ability to engage
labor through overseas bases offends the 'prohibited matters' provisions of the WRA [Reg 8.5(1) (h) & (i)
(Labour Hire, etc.). Even if it is arguable that some provision may be made for staff numbers - limited
to direct employees in a workplace agreement - any such restriction would be easily avoided by recourse
to the engagement of 'labour hire' workers. It should be noted however, that a prescription of staffing
numbers which places a direct or implied restriction upon the capacity of the employer to engage labor
through labor hire or contractors would be invalid.

Restrictions on Union Activity

[11] A range of amendments to union activity under the agreement has been necessary because of the
WRA. These restrictions fall into two broad categories. The first is that the existing clause confers a
benefit on a union member arguably at the expense of a non union member. An example of this would be
in the disciplinary clause where an employee was formerly entitled to be represented by a union
representative, whereas a non union member was not entitled to any separate representation. The second was where a benefit was arguably conferred on the Union itself - for example, leave bank. This
second category was contrary to the decision in the Electrolux case.

[12] A number of amendments have had to be made to take into account these restrictions and
prohibitions. Two examples are disputes and discipline. The proposed disputes settlement clause follows
more closely the current 'model' clause in the WRA. Importantly, however, it retains an arbitration power
for the AIRC. This is the critical feature of any such clause: see s692 WRA. The discipline clause has also
been amended to eliminate arguably 'prohibited content' in the present clause. Ultimately, disputes
about disciplinary matters can also be put to the AIRC under the new disputes settlement clause.

[13] I hope that this advice gives a brief but necessary indication of some of the very significant legal
issues facing Flight Attendants and the FAAA in the EBA negotiations.


Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov - Secretary International Division

[Bad Hat Harry]

A damn sight more positives than negatives.
A lot of of LCC carriers are going to have trouble recruiting with an EBA like this.It is likely that all LCCs will source their employees from offshore compounding the already crap reputation that these carriers have.
Sorry to all those offshore individuals who may intend working for LCCs.No offense intended.
A balance and opportunity for Australians to have a Crew job on acceptable salaries in their own country.I suspect the attrition rate in the AKL base to further escalate exponentially

[ruffrider747]

:cool:Well done A COMPREHENSIVE AND FANTASTIC ebsa 8 BRING ON THE KNOCKERS !!!! i HOPE THE sHORT hAUL uNION READS mm POSTING.Maybe Short Haul could learn something from Him and his team how to be strong and look after his members interests. How dare those long haulers knock him when he has done so much to save your asses, you have no idea HOW LUCKY YOU ARE !!!!
If one person wants to knock this then at least put up a logical and intelligent response, I havent seen a more comprehensive and informative EBA like this for ages. Who would have thought. Remember when we thought it was all gloom and doom. There is a big bright rainbow at the end of the rainbow. SO stop your nonsence and next time yuo see MM SR and DL shake their hands , buy then a beer, because they have saved your skins, your mortgages and the wonderful priveledged life styles yuo have so far been accostumed to and if you doubt this for one nanao second come to Short Haul where the union is prepared to treat its mmembers with contempt rarely communicates with them they know they sold their souls to the devil. I can honestly say i have no affiliation with this union, just a fan of theirs and glad to see the long haulers get a great deal, because you guys work bloody hard out their crossing time zones, dealing with all the crap etc for over 20 years in many of your cases. You are a great group of people and i believe the long haulers are the most professional of the Qantas group. So give yourselves all a pat on the back and hapily vote YEs. I"m rooting for you all:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[funbags]

Geez,

Am I reading this right - $70,000 for CSM's on the "B-Scale" - how much then are current ("A-Scale") LH CSM's on including allowances? Or for that matter - current LH CSS's?

Sounds like more than some S/O's!

[call button]

Will shorthaul crew transferring to longhaul be considered 'new entrants' for the purpose of bidding for trips?

[ruffrider747]

Call button " new entrants" was a termed used by the short haul union to discriminate against long haulers regional flyers or anyone else transfering. No The Union has graciously allowed short haul to transfer across on the A scale.

[left 4 primary]

Ruffrider,
Sorry to be cynical, but somehow I don't trust management to do the right thing, all too many times they have shafted us.

Fair enough that the union has allowed shorthaulers to transfer across on A scale, but do you really trust the company, they could easily say too bad ,all new entrants have to be employed via QCCA .

It doesn't matter to me as I've always been LH, but show me where is it written and signed off by LG? That's what's important when it comes to being legally binding.

And to funbags,
I compared my group certificate a few years ago with a S/O and I earnt $2,000 more than him, I was quiet suprised.
I know when I'm on a good wicket, and thanks to MM & SR I've got at least another 5 years left before TJF:E

[hawke eye]

i look forward to applying for promotion, just a thought about pay.

For Lhaul crew to earn what they do the majority of their sectors are night sectors, with over 14hours tour of duty. Most people in the real world still(now with work choices gone) can expect to get O/T ofter 8 and a half hours.

We are away up to 12 days.

Its irrelevant what a second officer earns they do a completely different job.
If im going to become a manager i want the 70K and then some.

A csm is responsible for making sure that we deliver what is promised service wise. when its not delivered he/she has to put out all the fires.

For the responsibility of 400 plus passengers , very affluent, influential and part of the big business world and corporate community there is a huge amount of pressure on both the CSM and the CSS to get it right every sector every time.

There are people out in the real world who earn more with less responsibilty without 18 hour days and jetlag thrown in. They get the money cos they are usually on contracts.

I have earnt more than a junior CSS and CSM in the past just because of the type of flying i was able to get through seniority.

The money earnt by all in L Haul is worked for. Our 3 % wage increase each year still doesnt match inflation. I believe senior management have received way more than 3% each year.

[left 4 primary]

Hawkeye,

Think how much the senior managers are going to get, this new EBA is set up to save them approx $40 million, How much are they going to get as a bonus for saving QF so much $$$ ???

Don't forget the last AGM, GD was awarded 1 million Qantas shares.

I remember in Col Burgess book laughter in the Air, the S/O was referred to as the Captains sexual advisor, because if he wanted his f**king advice he'll ask for it. It was nice to know that I did earn more than him, but he is probably a Captain now on his third alimony payment.

3% pay rise??? From what I've been reading on the other threads, with the engineers EBA negotiations, 3% seems to be the companys magic figure for the worker.

[golow]

Now lets see $33400 to work on a A380 and be away from home or sell shoes at Myers $38000 home every night and no care. FAAA wake up!!!!

[mrpaxing]

golow goback into your little nest. this 34+K is a base salary, then there is ++++
some just dont get it:yuk:
Why would the FAAA LH negotiate for MAM casuals, which are not even part of LH?????????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[hawke eye]

You forgot the top up pay:D, its still a stitch up, the only prob is history tells us short haul and jet star are happy to fly it for cheaper. With that sort of idiocy reducing our market worth what chance have we got.
The short haul division needs to have a close look at its union officials and industrial advisors. Its time they worked with Long haul as a collective rather than doing their own thing. Look at what has now occurred.:ugh:
Short haul cant complain as they keep electing these people.
For those short haul wishing to come across, you can only come across if crew from long haul want to go to short haul. it will be the same as the transfer list now in existence i am lead to believe.
With reduced bands payment waiting for us in short haul if we transfer, and now( after voting up the eba) unlimited part time for all categories and a huge increase in both international and regional flying there wont be too many on the list I wouldnt have thought.
Oh well if you still want to come across and there is no one on the transfer list you can always ask the company if the B scale is available.:ok:

[samford]

Take a breath. Do you really think posts like that are going to achieve anything? Your question has been adequately answered.....

Given the anticipated growth projected in the A380 Division, its conceivable that they may have trouble attracting enough crew from the current world who are eligible for promotion. On that basis, the EBA provides that the 4 years and 2 years does not apply in A380 division.


If you choose to apply for QCCA, and are successful, you will have the opportunity to apply for CSS/CSM when the company decides, not the FAAA. At that time it is logical to assume your application will be assessed on merit and that includes your previous experience working in other organisations including MAM.

Short haul don't even have that right.

[call button]

I agree with u5mj. This EBA is going to have a huge impact on the careers of MAM FA's. Removing all this flying from shorthaul will lead to a surplus, and thus no work for MAMers. Yes they can apply for a 'full-time' position with QCCA, but they will still lose a lot of money. Many of the MAM FA's have several years flying experience and are extremely experienced in INTERNATIONAL flying. In addition to this, many are fluent in an Asian language, and currently hold a language badge.

These FA's should be considered for CSS CSM positions in longhaul.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote - "These FA's should be considered for CSS CSM positions in longhaul."

Really?

How does that work? I was under the impression that you lot are not actually employed by Qantas.

Please. Correct me if I'm wrong...........

[call button]

Speedbirdhouse... Firstly I am not a MAMer. Yes they are not employed by Qantas, but neither will the 'B Scale' workforce that you are about to vote for. They are however, very experienced in QANTAS international operations.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "As for your barb about us not being Qantas employees....one day you may well have that feeling too."

It wasn't a barb but thanks for confirming it as a fact.

If you lot are so gifted surely you'll all come across on the new B scale and after 4 years be walk up starts for the CSM role on 70K +:ok:

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "Tick tock tick tock....."

Ah yes. As you were saying.

I wonder why I get the impression that our place of work is going to became a rather unpleasant place to be.

For the first time in Qantas's history..............

[surfside6]

Before all this nonsense about casuals,MaMers,offshor bases and shorthaul there was Qantas Longhaul.Pure and simple international flying...one big happy family.
Now we have all these pretenders hangers on and strikebreakers.
The FAAA have done an outstanding job at representing its membership.
Now all the pretenders want/demand a piece of the action.
You were aware of the terms conditons of your employment when you signed up.You understood very quickly how you were perceived by others.The Australian economy has a labour shortage.If you are not happy with your lot there are plenty of employment opportunities elsewhere.
All this nonsense about being qualified to become onboard managers is laughable.
How many people management ,conflict resolution courses have you done?
Are you decisive,intuitive and able to deal with confrontation effectively.
Are you a fast and effective problem solver?
More importantly how much management experience do you have?
Putting some of you guys in charge of 18 crew and 450 passengers on a brand new A380 would be like putting a neanderthal in charge of an F-18.
Generation Y has arrived and what is obvious..you cant even manage yourselves and have absolutely no hope of managing others.
Remember respect is earnt not given.
If you dont have the respect of your crew...game over,go home.
An irate 60 year old CEO would have you guys for breakfast.

[surfside6]

With your "tick tock" mentality you have lready illustrated that you are not management material.
Perhaps you are more suited to working for Swatch.....as a floor sweeper

[silvafox]

don't worry surfside u5mj will be sorted out asap. Never seen anyone rate themselves like that before!
He's trying to wind us all up. Funny thing is he will always be on the outside.

[speedbirdhouse]

u5mj,

Mmmmm......

Your last post indicates a personality type that we have a name for where I work.

" Amelia Earharts".......

I'll let you work it out.

[watch your6]

Its always amusing when domestic pursers compare themselves to international CSMs
Most CSSs are better,more experienced managers than a purser.
You dont spend long enough with your customers to even discover what their concerns and problems are.
You lot are just a bunch of yo yos...upand down all day.
If you are so well qualified my pretentious little friend why are you wasting away being a domestic purser?
Rio Tinto are looking for a new CEO .Why dont you put your hand up?

[whatever6719]

My God!!
You lot really need to get over yourselves.
Essentially, we ALL do the exact same job. Some do it in 1 hour, some do it in 14 hours. Whether we are "yo yo's" or not, we are all flight attendants working in a very challenging environment. Some would argue that short haul have alot more pressures and exposure to more challeges than long haul purely due to the sheer amount of extra sectors than long haul. Long haul may argue the amount of time in the air and time zone changes make for harder work. I think its swings and roundabouts.
Call me naive but I wish we could all just get along!!!!
The company would be loving all this bickering. We are playing into their hands.

[transcontinentalcc]

I guess there's always direct entry for Purser with V Australia 'um5j' if you're keen on a quick move back up the latter...

[funbags]

whatever6719,

You have got to remember that LH Cabin Crew consider themselves to be gods gift to just about everything. And they'll be the first ones to tell you!

This "B Scale" EBA is nothing more than what's in it for me, me, me!

Quite frankly, give me a short haul crew any day!

[cartexchange]

why such an interest in our EBA?

such silly remarks remind me when silly CC make statements such as 747 pilots are not as "nice" as 767!

who farking cares!

[samford]

Did SH sit down at the last EBA all concerned about LH losing flying? No, they did not. You now expect the LH crew to consider MAM casuals?

Your predicament is not ideal, having labour hire companies and off shore bases hurts us too, but we have had to adapt. Please just leave the issue alone. A SH FA has never been able to go into LH directly as a CSM/CSS and I cannot fathom how you expect an external applicant to be able to.

Hate the game, not the player.

[prunezeuss]

Longhaul have an excellent outcome with EBA8.Once it is accepted...and it should be...the domestics are going to have a problem negotiating their next EBA.
They have no one to shaft in order to improve their position.
Oops..wait a minute...on second thought....they can shaft themselves.

[silvafox]

to all our 'distressed' short haul colleagues, maybe you should be looking at your union and some of the decisions they recommended for you? Accountability starts from the top.

[sydney s/h]

Why shouldnt a SH CSM be able to transfer straight into LH as a CSM?

Most have plenty of experiance, also been flying regional sectors now for a few years - on aircraft that hold 300 pax with long flying times eg.BOM - more demanding pax on those with a more fragile IFE system!!

Not to mention that a bunch of SH CSM's did the whole LHR base.

[cartexchange]

because they are domestic pursers with domestic purser attitudes and ideas!

it takes us years to re train the domestics when they come over!

Domestic Pursers = LH CSM..............different type, will never be equal in experience.

[Flugbegleiter]

I'm not going to even get into the whole shorthaul vs longhaul debate (yet). I've got my opinions...

But I don't understand why a few of my fellow longhaulers are attacking u5mj?? This person has been making sensible posts and some of you are slamming him/her unreasonably.

This person is obviously someone with a lot of experience and simply wants a job along side us. They realise that they won't be able to do it under our pay and conditions and seem pretty accepting of the conditions that it will be under. And they don't hold anything against us for this.

Stop being so reactionary. Start thinking before you post, people. These forums may be anonymous, but there are still people with real feelings at the other end of post...

[White Pointer]

Here we go, the big divisions are opening up. Long Haul gets something that makes them happy, and immediately starts putting the boot into shorthaul, MAM, LHR base, anyone who they can think of.

The continued comments of how high and almighty LH CSM's are is depressing. You people are so important given you are in charge as you like to call it of 400 people. Something that gives you management status equal to a company CEO with a similar amount of employees. To say other flight attendants are not suitable for the role is plain arrogant.

At the cinema the other night, there were over 1000 people inside the complex, and the duty manager there (about 21 years old that night) doesn't walk around bragging that they are responsible for 1000+ people and therefore command the respect of a company CEO. But that person was responsible for getting them all out if there was a fire and evacuation required (ie. they had to open the doors). Not a much different role to a CSM really.

The QF LHCC mentality of being super important, much better qualified, harder working, higher skilled, blah blah compared to all other flight attendants is rubbish. Just the ramblings of a deluded bunch of crusty old boilers who have done nothing else in life.

The more you lot harp on about how good you are and how bad everybody else is the more you will suffer in years to come. The more they are alienated, the bigger the wave against you next time around. Look at the numbers. Will current LHCC have a majority voice next time around? Look a bit further forward than yesterday.

Divide and conquer. Glad I don't work for QF anymore. Too many of you would not survive in the real world.

[surfside6]

TAA employed women...Qantas employed men.
TAA women were always "special" and the QF boys were so rough.
The Ansett "Girls" and Qantas "Boys" always got along well.
TAA always had the "princess"mentality
Then when the so called merger happened that mentality and the dobbing moved across to Longhaul.Its always an uncomfortable arrangement.
The resentment escalated when Longhaul crew began to migrate to domestic flying.The last domestic EBA was designed to stem that flow because of the domestic girls were losing their precious seniority.
The last domestic EBA was when the war really began.Most longhaul crew felt what had been done was contemptible....reduction in bands payment..transfer of flying etc..
Now with this new LH EBA domestics have been dealt out of the equation.
Why do you think management is happy to give LH back a large slice of regional flying?Simple...we do it better.
Domestics and the LHR basing is another story...its a screw up...the blind leading the near sighted.Contrary to the spin the LHR base is still in existence because its cheap.
To think that a purser is equivalent to a CSM in capability is nonsensical.Accept the reality.It has nothing to with being arrogant..its just a fact.
Qantas LH had done well for 80 years without any domestic assitance.
You guys really need to get over your domestic mentality and concentrate on your next EBA...you have some huge challenges.Be careful that domestic isnt overrun by casuals and all the old dears become an anachronistic minority.
Our future now is pretty much secure...yours is not.
Leave us alone and concentrate on your imminent problems

[silvafox]

ahh white pointer with comments like that you are in danger of becoming as rare as your named species. 'The real world' hero statement doesn't wash mate along with your cinema manager-CSM comparison. You and your mate U5mj can sit together (hands on crotch) and compare 'qualifications' and 'real world experience' over a milky soy decaf latte, the preferred choice of beverage for the self indulged.

[call button]

Although shorthaul will only retain 25% of the regional flying, this will essentially consist of PVG PEK and HKG. This is to efficiently utilise the large number of Contract C Mandarin and Cantonese speakers.

BOM CGK MNL NRT and some Tasmans (those not already operated by Jitconnict) will return to longhaul.

In addition, the 767 will become a purely domestic aircraft and will then be exclusively operated by shorthaul. All new 737-800's will be operated by shorthaul.

There is still a question mark over the 743, as to who will operate this aircraft when it becomes purely domestic.

[Pegasus747]

COuple of points of clarification...

The 25% of regional flying that will be done by SHort Haul will essentially be the tasmans and some flying out of the Perth base and cairns base. If long haul did that international flying it would potentially affect the viability of those two short haul bases and that is certainly not the intention of the LH Division..

I would envisage that the 560 recruits into long haul before june next year will potentially come from the MAM Casual pool as many of them are looking for Careers....

The languages skills necessary for the PVG HKG and other asians ports already exist in the LH division and as such, short haul will not likely be getting them.

the 743 is a wide bodied aircraft and under the divisional flying agreement is the flying domain of the LH division. I dont envisage that it will be flown by other than long haul crew.

However, if short haul wanted to fly it domestically around australia i think that there would be a number of overjoyed long haul crew that would be glad to see the back of them. To be quite frank though, as much as we would like to see the back of them , short haul crew are not going to be flying 747 any time in the near future.

[skylarker]

Hmmm interesting movements.

Just noticed on the QF crew website that applications are now open for AKL BASED F/A's to be employed by QCCA in Mel on six (6) and twelve (12) month contracts starting on the 24/12/07. T&C's appear to be (as has been stated here before) ie: "B" scale conditions.

I am surprised this has started before the EBA 8 agreement has been ratified.

[casualvermin]

P747
Are you able to clarify a few things.....
1. What is Regional flying? S/H don't have a real definition, like what I heard as AEST +3hrs.Does this mean Short Haul will do CGK, BOM, MNL?
2. Will L/H fly on 767?
3. will QCCA have part time? The casuals mentioned in the proposed agreement, will they be 'labour hire'?
additional q's....
So really QCCA = QCUK - 747 only?
New recruits on A380 remain there for life, no transfer to L/H?

[casualvermin]

Also, many S/H have put name on transfer, can you see the likleyhood of this happening? Is this company or joint FAAA company agreement?

[Pegasus747]

ok here goes :)


the term regional flying is confusing... Under the divisional flying agreement A330 and 767 International flying was shared between LH/SH

SH got 25%
LH got 30%
and Qantas had 45% to distribute as it wished.....Because SH so many more hours than LH and only get 12 hours rest everywhere and the MAM casuals and SH crew are paid a lot less than L:H crew, Qantas gave their 45% to SH.

This resulted in surpluses of crew in LH, which led to redundancies and forced LSL and the changing circumstances of the LH Division.

This EBA rectifies those issues and sends the 45% plus the 30% back to LH ..this effectively gives 75% of the A330 and 767 INternational flying to LONG HAul where it rightfully sits.

When the 787 comes, it will be flown internationally and domestically. Where it is flown internationally all (100%) of international flying will be done by Long Haul crew as part of this EBA arrangement.

the predominant international flying done by short haul after this eba is approved will be trans tasman flying and some out of perth and cairns which will be the 25% originally promised to short haul.

QCCA will employ crew on both A380 and in the current LH world. Those in the LH world will operate all current and new aircraft that current LH crew fly and sit under them in seniority but will have a different pay and work rules structure. They will be part of EBA and not on a contract.

QCCA crew will only have their rosters constructed after current LH crew have bid using seniority, and there will be no work either "pulled for them or reserved for them. for all intents and purposes they will be junior to the current crew.

Crew from the current LH can go to A380 on the conditions negotiated for A380 which in essence in the LOndon base work rules except that they will get a substantial salary top up to ensure no loss of income over in A380 division.

Crew that go over to start with (1st 2 years) 4 A/C, will be able to return to their original base or stay if they wish with ongoing salary top up arrangements.

ANy current LH crew that goes to A380 after start up will also get the salary top up arrangement indefinitely.

This is a great outcome given the current laws and circumstances facing crew.

[simsalabim]

Surfside6's summation "The Rivalry..An Historical Context"
is an excellent summation of the evolution of the situation with cultures in the two main QF C/C divisions . The L/H culture developed for very valid reasons mainly to protect the members of the group and nurture it against those perceived as antagonistic , threatening or simply outside of that group and probably had its origins back in the flying boat days. It was a mechanism evolved for protection of the group in the variety of situations that arose over a lengthy 19 -26 day trip away in very difficult and very foreign far flung lands .This would have demanded a caring and inclusive culture and ethos where you looked after your mates and fellow cabin crew as the No 1 priority.
This culture remains today albeit watered down due to the dilution from those from other divisions and the attempts of QF management, for reasons known best to themselves , to destroy it.
A pity really because properly harnessed this culture ,commercially, was/is worth its weight in gold.The trouble is that past and current management since the merger of 1993 have been totally inept at recognising the postive side of it and have placed the old TAA culture up as the preferred model.

[surfside6]

The document in its entirety is now available on the FAAA website.
Also the company will be mailiing a CD containing to the material to Crew members homes.
Its about 120 pages in length..quite read

[funbags]

Long Haul Cabin Crew:

Think that they are better than everybody else. They are not.

Oh and I love this one by cartexchange
"it takes us years to re train the domestics when they come over!
Domestic Pursers = LH CSM..............different type, will never be equal in experience."

The arrogance just astounds! Put a long haul cabin crew on a 25min SYD-CBR with full bar and dinner. They wouldn't last 5 minutes. They panic when told it's 45 minutes flight time for a light refreshment on the Jumbo between Melbourne and Sydney!

What's in it for me, me, me!!

[cartexchange]

oh such wisdom from our tech crew!
oh my god a techie has spoken lets all listen with gratitude.

hmmmm is a techie calling CC arrogant........now that is laughable:D

[surfside6]

We have been doing SYD/MEL for years...no one panics.
SYD/AKL/SYD when we ran the show...full bar...full meal and duty free...FLT usually less than 3 hours...full pax load on a jumbo
The only crew who panic on these sectors are ex domestic old boilers.
Funbags...I gather you are a Techie...how the hell do you know what goes on in the Cabin?...you never leave the flight deck except to get off the aircraft.

[funbags]

Wow. Full bar and dinner and duty free on a 3hr flight between Syd and AKL. You guys really are legends! :hmm:

Try 25 minutes SYD-CBR! (Oh sorry, but without the duty free!)

We do occasionally pax, and see the long haul bunfight in the cabin.

Give me a shorthaul crew any day!

LHCC: What's in it for me, me, me, me!!!!!!!!

[surfside6]

Funbags ...sounds like you got a knock back from a LH Crew Member.
Just goes to show that we have excellent taste and high standards.
Rotate....you seem adept at that at least.

[funbags]

"Funbags ...sounds like you got a knock back from a LH Crew Member.
Just goes to show that we have excellent taste and high standards.
Rotate....you seem adept at that at least."


Yeah right! LHCC are way out of my league anyway! You guys are way too good for us mere techies! :eek:

LHCC: What's in it for me, me, me, me!!!!!!!!

[surfside6]

Don t worry ...someone will sleep with you eventually...when they have consumed enough alcohol.
Q.Why did God create alcohol?
A.So techies can have a sex life.
Anyway....... enough of this frivolity....back to serious issues...the EBA

[funbags]

Hey surfy!

Q. What do LHCC use as contraception?
A. Their personality! :eek:

The LH EBA is not a serious issue anymore, as it will be voted up by a huge majority. Because remember the LHCC mantra: What's in it for me, me, me, me!!!!

[silvafox]

ahh funbags. You're microsoft flight simulator, pizza box and handcream are calling mate. A big night in is called for as you have had your diatribe posted, woo farkin hoo!
Grow up sunshine and go back to the good life in front of big brother and keep dreamin of your next sim or cut price meal at fattys.

Sorry guys, but was an easy target. Now back to the EBA..

[funbags]

Super reply that silva!

Take your 3grand and run, screw the rest. Because I'm alright thanks Jack! Very selfish attitudes by the LHCC posters on this board re the EBA, and they even criticise their own SH mates at the same time. Because as we all know (and they'll be the first to tell you!), LHCC are gods gift to flight attendants worldwide. Yeah right! :yuk:

LHCC: What's in it for me, me, me, me!!!!!!!! It's all about me!!!!

[Tidbinbilla]

Well, this thread seems to have certainly run its course. :rolleyes:

Well done everyone!