Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[equity38]

Good on MM and the FAAA :)

[RedTBar]

Well,thats good news as it is better than losing a crew member off each 400.

We all know that getting an extra crew member from the company is like getting blood from a stone so I'll be interested in seeing what the rest of the eba offers.

I have only one question at this stage and that is 'Why do all the faaa officials have alphanumeric id's on prune?'

[alpine57]

Good news about the extra crew member. Mijatov said at the union meetings the union was going to try and improve job security by getting work. Seems he has started to achieve that aim.

[cartexchange]

do you honestly think that this is the doing of MM!
This has absolutely nothing to do with the FAAA or MM, the company will put on and take off as many crew members as it sees fit!
However this is good news! Now the important question as Midnight stated, "where will this new crew come from" if it means more Australian recruitment then that is fantastic.

[stubby jumbo]

.............yeah good news alright.

Credit where its due/:D

Though 'am sure the boffins at the QF negotiating table will want something in return at their game of " ..'500"

Get ready for them to hit us with OPEN MOZAIRE !!

I'm with you T-bar............whats with the sudden proliferation of Probationary ppruners with numbers-seems to me a bit of lobbying going on to sure up opinion.

Paranoia............'nah never.:hmm::hmm:

[captainrats]

You people are unbelievable.
You criticize and bleat about insignificant rubbish.
When good news comes along you are still critical.
This is all a step in the right direction.
If procedures dont work write a voyage report or whatever its called now.
If it doesnt work dont make it work.The pax will soon let the fools in the office know.
Well Done the FAAA and well done MM.
Gee, and no alpha numeric pprune User Name

[RedTBar]

captainrats,You have to understand that most of us have been around more times than we like to think about.That means that we know what the company is like and as I said it is like getting blood from a stone.
So now the company say's "OK we'll give you another crew member"
Now most of us are waiting to see what the other hand takes away.It's kind of a reflex action.
This is not a shot at the faaa but a shot at the company as we all know what they have done to us over the last few years.You have to admit Dixon is not known for being generous.
As far as an alpha numeric id is concerned it would help if the two posts were more than 3 minutes apart before extolling the apparent success of the faaa.Next time have a cup of tea and wait for at least 10 minutes or so.

[indamiddle]

after reducing crew to 15 how long did it take mgt to cut out the bar on flights between
oz and asia? everyone new the new system didn't work but it took a hell of a long time before anything was done.
crew fom TAA/australian tell of the experiment with fullfare economy and the total cockup it became, discount y class had meat pies or pizzas, must have cancelled it because all the hosties put on 20 kg in 2 months.
maybe one of the fear of flying group is from that era and they don't want a repeat of the experience.... interesting times ahead, looking fwd to a pie on board with john elliot

[lowerlobe]

I think it's a little early to count your chickens yet captainrats.

If you are still talking about voyage reports then you have probably forgotten about the cynicism of crew when it comes to the company.....

I doubt this has anything to do with them feeling guilty that the service was reduced when they took a crew member off.

More likely that they simply cannot work out a way of having 4 distinct classes on the one aircraft with the available crew.

If they could have done it they would.........OR......is it a trade off in some way?

In what way exactly will Premium Y/C be different from the rest of Y/C?
Cheers

Lowerlobe 181

[Shlonghaul]

Does this mean that the extra crew member will work on their own in Premium Luxury Coach doing another horseshoe?? And wearing a different coloured tie or scarf to indicate this exciting promotion?? Nahh just joking, the office buffoons will come up with the "procedures" and the crew will as usual sort out what's really practical and what isn't.

Shlonghaul 69 :E

[lowerlobe]

Second thoughts on this extra crew and Schlonghaul raises an interesting point.

Will THE crew member be expected to do a horseshoe in premium Y/C.If so they will probably do a PR job on it and call it a tactical U-Turn or moving forward with zonal reponsibility or some other rubbish.

Imagine the PA's as well....looking after less than premium Y/C class is CSS .... and in Premium Y/C or as we call it Darth Class is THE F/A ......

Lowerlobe 181

[silvafox]

Ahh yes Paj will have her hands all over it. I can see it now, "zonal penetration" is the new catch cry ;)

[gloriais18]

Qantas launches Premium Economy Cabin
Latest News (http://www.pprune.org/forums/introduction?ArticleID=paf_curr_intro)

Sydney, 24 July 2007
Qantas today revealed the new Premium Economy cabin and seating to be offered progressively on its international Boeing 747-400 aircraft from February 2008 and on its fleet of new A380 being delivered from August 2008.
Qantas Executive General Manager John Borghetti said the airline's Premium Economy cabin would appeal to Economy travellers seeking more space, comfort and an enhanced level of service.

"The Premium Economy seat was designed by Marc Newson - the designer of our award winning Skybed sleeper seat - and manufactured by Recaro, which makes seats for luxury auto brands such as Aston Martin, Audi and Porsche," Mr Borghetti said.
"The seats offer extra width and recline, more legroom, and an in-arm digital wide screen television monitor, as well as laptop power connection.

"Premium Economy will also include a self-service bar offering a selection of refreshments throughout the flight, in addition to the regular choice of meals designed by Neil Perry's Rockpool Group, premium wines, superior tableware and soft furnishings."
Mr Borghetti said other key features of Premium Economy included:
* the world's best Premium Economy recline and leg room - nine inch seat recline and up to 42 inch seat pitch;
* extra wide, 19.5 inch seat width;
* ergonomic cushioning;
* larger, in-arm touch screen video monitor;
* multiport jack with USB (A380 only) and RJ45 ports;
* a six-way adjustable headrest;
* an integrated leg rest with fold-out footrest; and
* a wide centre console with a fixed cocktail table and in-arm meal table.
"Premium Economy customers will also have a dedicated check-in area," Mr Borghetti said.
He said the Premium Economy cabin would be available gradually on B747 services to London, Hong Kong and Johannesburg from February 2008 with further routes being added following the introduction of A380 aircraft.

Premium Economy will be located on the main deck of B747 aircraft with 32 seats in a two-four-two configuration.

On the A380, the cabin will be located on the upper deck with 32 seats in a two-three-two configuration.
Issued by Qantas Corporate Communication (3619)

[silvafox]

Glorias if you are going to cut and paste at least do the whole article.
You forgot to quote JB's "dedicated cabin crew" statement which was also reported widely in all print media as well as the QF PR Dept :yuk:
Oxymoron alert!
Wonder where all the dedicated crew are coming from? They'll be more horseshoes flying than at Bart Cummings stables!

[lowerlobe]

"dedicated cabin crew"....

And a self service bar.....

No we know why they are putting an extra crew member on board.If so you would imagine they would need more than 150 extra crew especially with the A380 on the way....Sorry I forgot about the LHR/BKK/AKl base which they are probably intending to double.

Lowerlobe 181

[RedTBar]

"Premium Economy customers will also have a dedicated check-in area,"
Does this mean that there will be one less y/c check in counter?
I hope they will put in some cupboards for the multitude of jackets and coat covers and not expect to use what ones we have in J/C or L5.
I also guess that this will mean at least one and most likely 2 less toilets for Rooty Hill class y/c
Tbar007:E

[indamiddle]

hey silvafox,
nothing wrong with zonal penetration, if u get it right!!!
had to add another f/a as there is a self serve bar to monitor,
as for dedicated crew...where are they going to find one, let alone 170
looks like the new c zone will replace R5 as the place to work, hope they load more magazines to keep the 'dedicated' crew awake

[lowerlobe]

Does anyone know how many seats there will be and where the self service bar will be?

Will they have their own toilets?

Could be the new comfort zone for crew....At least when they're alseep.

Lowerlobe181

[indamiddle]

config 2-4-2 32 seats therefore 4 rows.
there goes most, maybe all c zone
2 dedicated crew, 5 left in discount y class inc senior, maybe 260 y class left.
only 2 carts will be operated down back, can't see another option at this point but it takes out horshoe in dicount class and creates it in full class
let's have a competition to see who can come up with the best nicknames for the two classes ...hopefully as clever as the 'tele tubbies'
maybe the union could chuck in a prize for the best...we get to vote though, not anyone with numerals in their moniker

[alpine57]

Informed sources indicate that the FAAA has sold us out!!1

- 240 hours for all crew

- no bid system

- pay reduction of 27%

- allowances slashed by approx 50%

- pay equalisation abolished

[silvafox]

Nice windup Alpine. Informed sources my arse! Stop trolling and have a lie down...

[alpine57]

its true silvafox.

i apologise to cartexchange, he's right MM has sold us out.

[silvafox]

Alpine, if it is true I will be the first to apologise to you. I hope it isn't. It would be the sell out of the century thats for sure!

[DEFCON4]

Alpine ......the matters that you allude cannot be agreed to by MM without them put being put to a membership vote.
This is the way the FAAA constitution is constructed.

[lowerlobe]

This has all the appearances of .................'come in spinner'

lowerlobe181

[alpine57]

it's true!!!! MM will eat your kids too!!!

:) lowerlobe you got it in 1.

i was just making a point of how ridiculous unfounded and defammatory stuff can be posted in here.

I know MM.... he ain't selling out anyone .

[cartexchange]

THE FAAA goon squad must be in a humorous mood tonight, someone put too much rum in your doughnuts at the bunker today!

Don't worry alpine 57 I may be critical of MM and I don't like a lot of things he does like the A330 -but I know he would never sell us out ( I HOPE).

cartexchange 2020.
:}

[indamiddle]

hi all
why do the numbers 99, 57, 38 etc and their associated comments mean nothing.
so many numbers coming out of the closet!

[lowerlobe]

indamiddle.........

why do the numbers 99, 57, 38 etc and their associated comments mean nothing.

It's just that it seems to be trendy these days to have a number after your user name:E

it's true!!!! MM will eat your kids too!!!

Alpine57....It's true then that MM's middle name is Hannibal?:E:E:E

lowerlobe181

[alpine57]

Lowerlobe i understand only will eat them accompanied by an appropriate sidedish :)

[alpine57]

correction should read "i undestand MM will only eat them " etc etc


:)

[mrpaxing]

job security. finally MM comes good with the long awaited dispensation on the A330-200. Thanks MM for another excuse. i love the bit where he says until the next generation aircrafts arrive. and that would be.......2012 onwards????????? once again under the "job security scarrism" we have to lower our conditions. were does it guarantee job growths? But we wont look at any associated fatigue issues. thanks MM we know you wont be doing those flights:{

[twiggs]

So then mrpaxing, what is the alternative?

Here is the newsletter

15 November 2007

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

A330-200 DISPENSATION

BACKGROUND

Qantas is going to fly the A330-200 on SYD-BOM-SYD and AKL-LAX-AKL sectors from February/March 2008. The A330-200 used by Qantas has not been built with underfloor crew rest.

Some of these sectors will be planned in excess of 14 hours. Qantas has asked the FAAA for dispensation (because there is no horizontal crew rest) so that it can use Long Haul crew on these sectors, for a period from March 2008 until approximately December 2008 for the AKL-LAX-AKL sectors and from February 2008 until the new generation of aircraft arrive for the SYD-BOM-SYD sectors.

DECISION

The FAAA has agreed to the Dispensation request.

RATIONALE FOR DECISION

We are currently in EBA negotiations which will decide the future of Long Haul. At recent membership meetings we indicated our primary goal is to secure work for Long Haul crew, so that there will be no redundancies in Long Haul and in a broader sense, ensure the protection of job security in Long Haul, by making sensible and rational decisions, some of which are often difficult.

Qantas has other options (crew) who will do the work if we refuse. A refusal will also signal to Qantas an inability of Long Haul crew to be flexible. This will lead to a diversion of work to other cabin crew within the Qantas Group and/or an increase in overseas base numbers and the commencement of promotions in overseas bases. This in turn means surplus crew in Long Haul and consequently would threaten our collective job security.

We already have a surplus situation in Long Haul, and a refusal to do this work will only make the situation worse, particularly for a base like Brisbane where the surplus is most apparent. The AKL-LAX-AKL dispensation frees up 747 aircraft to be used for BNE-LAX-BNE.

More generally, my announcement earlier this week of extra crewing is only possible if we are flexible.

DETAILS OF DISPENSATION

AKL-LAX-AKL


For A330-200 from March 2008 to December 2008.
Crew rest will comprise a space of six economy seats (currently four) modified to four improved curtained crew rest seats. The pitch will be 48 inches and a recline of 7.5 inches. There will also be one high comfort seat.
Home Transport will be provided both ways after operating any pattern containing AKL-LAX or LAX-AKL (PLANNED OR UNPLANNED).
Long Range provisions apply
SYD-BOM-SYD


For A330-200 from February 2008 until new generation aircraft arrives.
Crew rest will comprise a space of six economy seats (currently four) modified to four improved curtained crew rest seats. The pitch will be 48 inches and a recline of 7.5 inches. There will also be one high comfort seat.
Crew will be provided with an additional one (1) day of MBT/MPG in the construction of Mumbai patterns in addition to the normal prescribed rest periods.
Home Transport will be provided both ways after operating any pattern containing SYD-BOM or BOM-SYD (PLANNED OR UNPLANNED).
Long Range provisions apply.

I believe most thinking crew will appreciate the importance of securing growth and thereby securing a viable future for us all. I clearly enunciated how crucial it is to secure work at the recent FAAA membership meetings. Lack of work means excess crew, this in turn will ultimately lead to compulsory redundancy.

I ask that you see this initiative in the context of securing work and hence security for YOUR job.

I also ask members to await the outcome of the EBA negotiations, at which point, the big picture will become obvious to all.

[lowerlobe]

To be fair to the FAAA the timing of this request literally catches the union between the proverbial rock and and a hard place.

I agree that if they denied the dispensation to the company then it would definitely put added pressure on negotiations.

The company would have almost certainly used it to show the reluctance of L/H to be flexible.

Having said that,the company should at the very least acknowledge the dispensation in a concrete way.

This could be in a number of forms but it should be recognised during the negotiations.

A simple thankyou in a newsletter from the company to all L/H crew would certainly not hurt either.

If the dispensation is for such a considerable length of time such as 2012 then it is not out of the question that the company show some faith as well and guarantee that L/H will operate the A 380......

[mrpaxing]

the opportunity to present " the outcome of the EBA negotiations, at which point, the big picture will become obvious to all. ":sad:

[lowerlobe]

mrpaxing..........You did raise an important issue and that is fatigue.The reason that horizontal crew rest was established in the first place is because of the fatigue on long flights.

The tech crew believe in it as do most people but there is the problem of no horizontal crew rest fitted to this aircraft which the 'intelligentsia' decided was not needed even though this aircraft has a longer range than the 300.

That is why this dispensation needs to be recognised by the company in the EBA negotiations.

MM has said as much with his request for crew to be patient until the big picture is there for all to see.

The ball now is well and truly in MM's court.......

[twiggs]

And the alternative is...., Midnight-63?

No vote from membership is required to approve a dispensation.
A vote was done for the JFK shuttle dispensation but was not necessary.

[lowerlobe]

A vote was done for the JFK shuttle dispensation but was not necessary.

........Was that legally or morally?

[cartexchange]

Well guys I told you so on this forum approximately 3 weeks ago that this deal had been done.
MM you really are a disappointment, I hope you come out of your self imposed retirement and do at least 3 of these trips per roster.
By the way what kind of crew rest did the TEchies get out of this, I bet they got business class seats or something better.
I wish the FAAA would stop this "other crew will do this flying" guess what FAAA pussies they wont, why do you think that the BOM trips came back to long haul?:mad::mad::mad::mad:, its because the domestics kept on going sick, that is why the SHA and the PEK have not returned to us.
As as far as transport goes! what happens if you live on the Central or South coast or out West, its well within driving range but out of transport range.
What a farking sellout, this will go down in history of long haul flying as the biggest sell out, giving way what such conditions!!!!!!!!!!!no other first world airline would do it.
The FAAA have really lost it............out of touch.........:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[twiggs]

Cartexchange, do you understand that this is just a route specific dispensation, we are not giving away any conditions?
This has not something that has been negotiated for the EBA but may help us negotiate a better deal in the EBA.

As far as the BOM trips go, the only long-range sector without horizontal rest will be SYD-BOM.
This sector is a daylight sector so I think the need for horizontal rest is far less than the usual night sectors.
The return is the same as being operated presently which is not long-range.

As for AKL-LAX-AKL, the only sector that is long-range is LAX-AKL and as this is a night sector, will be the only sector out of 4 that the need for horizontal rest will be missed.

[surfside6]

What would you have done..?antagonize those that you are negotiating with?
The deal has time limitations
Some of these trips will be very high hour trips.
Look at the seniority of the JFK shuttles.
Wait until the EBA is negotiated and then shoot your loud mouth off.
Also have a look at the route codes that have become available to us.
Peking is back and other longer trips have become available.
How about saying something positive for a change and get rid of the Chicken Little mentality
AKL/LAX or BOM are trips that you wouldnt do any way.
So Why Whinge!
I hear the sound of your twisted sister approaching.What's her name again....ahhh yes.... RedTbar

[equity38]

I agree surfside.

Look at the extra trips that have suddenly appeared in our Bid Book and look at the announcement by the FAAA, which Qantas has confirmed regarding the extra crewing (achieved) because of the negotiations.

C artexchange solution is to just say NO... bugger the consequences.. bugger if people lose jobs in Long Haul...... he must be senior and obviously feels he would not lose his job.

MM and the FAAA know what they are doing.... i have faith in them as do most crew.

[Shlonghaul]

Look at the extra trips that have suddenly appeared in our Bid Book and look at the announcement by the FAAA, which Qantas has confirmed regarding the extra crewing (achieved) because of the negotiations.

Sounds like a government offering the sweetener of tax cuts before an election then belting the electorate over the head when they're voted back in :(
A vote was done for the JFK shuttle dispensation but was not necessary.

I thought a vote had to be put to the members after two consecutive bid periods of dispensation.
Look at the seniority of the JFK shuttles.

That's because there are no other decent long high hour trips in the book. We lost the majority of LHR trips to the London basing with the remaining one being a very arduous one especially the LHR/SIN sector. The FRA trip is ok but is an exhausting one with only one night in SIN southbound instead of the two we had for years and years. So with the JFK a high hour trip and with at least two nights in LAX each slip and home transport it suddenly became the best long trip available.

So what's the next "dispensation" AKL-LAX-AKL shuttle?!! :E

[surfside6]

Its all about money.
Why arent 9 day NRT trips or FRA trips or LHR trips popular with senior crew?.
Some of you guys would sell your maiden aunts for an extra sheckel and still complain.
You lot ride the wave while the rest of us arent even in the pipeline.
Want some high hour trips?Do some PER day trips.
!5 or 16 will fill your hours requirement.

[Shlonghaul]

Nice try surfsidesux

Why arent 9 day NRT trips or FRA trips or LHR trips popular with senior crew?.


Perhaps it's because long NRTs are not daily, 400s are not used so no horizontal crew rest but you can have the pleasure of freezing your @rse off in the 330s crew rest whilst being bumped all night as the pax search for the toilets. Language speakers, BKK & AKL crew pre-allocated to the pattern. Yeah perhaps that's the reason(s) why!!

Its all about money.


Did you get that from your hero Dixon? :E

PS> Riding the wave and loving it

I hear the sound of your twisted sister approaching.What's her name again....ahhh yes.... RedTbar

Over to you RedTbar!! :ok:

[alpine57]

FAAA QUOTE "I believe most thinking crew will appreciate the importance of securing growth and thereby securing a viable future for us all. I clearly enunciated how crucial it is to secure work at the recent FAAA membership meetings. Lack of work means excess crew, this in turn will ultimately lead to compulsory redundancy.

I ask that you see this initiative in the context of securing work and hence security for YOUR job.

I also ask members to await the outcome of the EBA negotiations, at which point, the big picture will become obvious to all. "

Don't waste your breath surfside, i think the FAAA hit the nail on the head when MM talked about "most thinking crew". THE TROUBLE IS THAT PEOPLE LIKE SCHLONGHAUL AND CARTEXCHANGE DO NOT FALL INTO THE CATEGORY OF "THINKING CREW".

Only saving grace is that they form part of the looney minority.

[Shlonghaul]

With impeccable timing in comes the numbers stooge with a pathetic impotent put down. :yuk: :=

Time will tell who's the looney minority and who's the thinking crew.

[stubby jumbo]

My sources tell me that there is another pre EBA dispensation -

"DEAL OR NO DEAL"

................coming our way.:rolleyes:

TBA over the next week or so. Could it be a new "regional" pattern ???

Time for a muf ;) fin.

[Guardian1]

Indeed it will, Schlonghaul, but rest assured you will not fall into the thinking category, nor will your mates who were thrown out ny the membership in humiliation in 2003/2004.

You can be confident of that.

[cartexchange]

the FAAA goon squad out in force!
traitors to the cause!
all you do is insult anyone that has a differing view!
the problem is that I will have to do those BOM and AKL sectors, the goons in the FAAA bunker will be comfortable eating their doughnuts every morning, shame on you!
Twiggs its become obvious to me that you don't fly, as AKL LAX is a night sector, we leave at 1730 and arrive at 1045 the next morning!!!!!!!
Its incredible the goons in the FAAA know they have made a mistake and wont admit it!
surfside sux, are you serious , AKL LAX AKL have never and will never be sought after trips, its obvious to me you have never done one, they have the highest sick leave after the PER night return.
Shame on you FAAA for allowing this, come on MM come out of your bunker and do one of those trips.
By the way Guardian get it out of your head that I was an ex FAAA official, I have never been one.
Traitors, crew have just been made aware of your latest betrayal.....I helped elect that goon MM to office and supported him during the debacle against GB TW and JB, it was the mistake of my life, I helped a dictator into that position.

[twiggs]

Cartexchange, I never said AKL-LAX wasn't a night sector, what I said was that it wasn't a LONG RANGE sector and hence does not require horizontal rest.
I guess it could end up being more than 14hrs TOD on the A330 depending on the time of year, but my point was that out of the 4 sectors involved in the dispensation, there was only one NIGHT sector that needed horizontal rest due to it being LONG RANGE.

There are plenty of long night sectors that are not long range and don't require horizontal rest, eg. HNL-SYD (Yeah I know, not anymore, but that's how I remember it), BOM-SYD, FRA-SIN.

[surfside6]

I Did back to back AKL/LAX/AKL for threes years.
I did NOT say that they were sought after trips.
You did not elect MM to his current position by yourself.

[Shlonghaul]

Guardian,
For the record I was one of the many who voted for MM & Co. to make the necessary changes and was well pleased in 04 when we achieved a good eba without using industrial action despite the companys appalling attitude to us by training strike breakers in the dead of night so apparently according to your narrow minded self I voted out my mates. :rolleyes:

Indeed it will, Schlonghaul, but rest assured you will not fall into the thinking category, nor will your mates who were thrown out ny the membership in humiliation in 2003/2004.


Ny....Ny....Ny..........now let me think about that :E

Ny Ny Guardian.....sleep well......what was your number again? :ugh:

[travel thickness]

RedTBar,Cartexchange and Schlonghaul play a game called share the neuron.
Between the three of them they have one neuron.Whoever is at home has the neuron.
Sometimes one of them will forget to leave it at home and take it away on a trip leaving the two left at home without a neuron between them.
As you can see RedTbar is away and taken the neuron with him.
Hence the innanity of the posts made by Cartex and Schlong.

[cartexchange]

So, lets now get down to the nitty gritty,
four seats have been enhanced and curtained off! and I presume 2 of them are outside normal seats. NOT good enough!
So who is going to sit in the "Good seats" why not allocate a row of business seats, they did this on the LHR sectors for a while, remember they curtained off the last row.
Come on FAAA goon squad, why couldn't you get a better deal, too busy stuffing doughnuts into you mouths.
You guys have really stuffed up on this one, you could have done it better, I have such little faith in your negotiating skills now.
Anyway what did the Techies negotiate on this one? i bet they have been able to organise room service on this sector

[lowerlobe]

OK time out people………

This as with most matters of livelihood will be emotive but if this name calling continues all that will be achieved will be the thread being banned.

One person is being bagged by pro union people and he isn’t even here or made a post on this subject.

I guess that the company and some in the union would like this thread to be banned so that they are no longer criticised.However,many crew who post here do not want that.

The problem here on PPrune is that we have crew that are worried about their conditions and we have the union officials who believe that they should be trusted.

We also have some here that represent the company but we all know who they are and what they are going to say so they are irrelevant to the debate.

The problem is that both the company and the union do not believe in any transparency in their dealings and only inform the crew once a ‘deal’ has been completed.

Even if the crew are given a vote they can only receive information from the company and the union so it becomes a fait accompli.

Even the union should understand how the rumours start given this.How many times have we heard that communication is the best way to avoid problems in the first place.

The dispensation given by the union is not for a single event but instead for a number of years especially when you consider that the next generation replacement aircraft ordered has not even made a single test flight and maybe years away.

There was also no mention in the newsletter about alternatives for crew rest.What arrangement has the company and the tech crew union arrived at for their members?

You would expect therefore that any dispensation given to the company for that length of time would be recognized by the company in it’s negotiations with something substantial.

The FAAA has literally painted itself into a corner with this and any other dispensations and will be expected by the crew to provide an agreement that they will find attractive.

The ball as I said before is in the FAAA’s court and crew will be expecting a solid result in return.

[twiggs]

four seats have been enhanced and curtained off! and I presume 2 of them are outside normal seats. NOT good enough!
So who is going to sit in the "Good seats" why not allocate a row of business seats, they did this on the LHR sectors for a while, remember they curtained off the last row.

Cartexchange, you had better get someone to explain the newsletters to you first because you don't seem to understand what was even written.
You certainly don't read my posts properly.

There are still only 4 crew rest seats plus the high comfort seat, as per the current A330-300. The difference is they are using the space that 6 seats takes to give them more pitch and recline.

As for curtaining off 4 business class seats for crew, you really are dreaming if you think anyone could negotiate such a loss in revenue for crew rest these days.

[RedTBar]

Twiggs,Why do you want to continue the arguement?

Let it rest girl,I have even after reading the last page or so.If it goes on the same way we'll get banned.Lobey is right and even if I don't want to give anything more to the company.I'll wait and see if it gets us anywhere before I say my two bobs worth.

[twiggs]

I'm not the one arguing TBar, just clarifying what Cartex and friends do not understand.
If you don't want the facts out there, then you lot are the ones to be suspicious of.

[cartexchange]

youre right twiggs I did misreade it! its even worse that I thought.
4 seats for 10 crew......farking great.

so time off divided by three lots and its a long range sector with no horizontal rest............this gets better and better

[twiggs]

You obviously don't fly on the A330-300 do you Cartex?
It's actually 5 seats for 10 crew because there is the high comfort seat at R1.

[RedTBar]

A post from Twiggs
If you don't want the facts out there, then you lot are the ones to be suspicious of.

I guess you mean crew when you say 'You Lot'.Facts depend on what side of the fence you are on so most of us here know yours.
You were continueing the arguement and only want to cause trouble by getting someone to reply.
Lobey is right We also have some here that represent the company but we all know who they are and what they are going to say so they are irrelevant to the debate.

Cart,Don't bother with the company rep here and just wait.If the faaa has screwed up then they will hang themselves.As Schlonghaul said time will tell.
Don't take her bait because she just wants to get us banned.She doesn't want anyone to have a go at the company or the award they are working on with the faaa.

[cartexchange]

yes I do fly it twiggsy, do you call that seat at R1 a comfortable and adequate seat for rest with a screaming toilet outside it !then there is no use you or I continuing this.
Why is it so wrong to want my fellow colleagues to have a decent and adequate rest in order to combat fatigue?
My aim is to improve our conditions NOT to erode them or give them away.

[RedTBar]

On another subject did anyone hear how much of a bonus GD got in the way of shares at the AGM?
He really would want the shares to go up now.

Did anyone go to the AGM?
I thought that there was a group that was going to ask him some tricky questions?

[twiggs]

Like I said, we are not giving anything away, this is just a dispensation.

The seating on the 200 will be the same as the 300 with more room.
The location of the high comfort seat may not be the same, but we have always had crew rest near toilets so nothing new there.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting adequate rest for us all, just don't claim that the situation is worse than the one we already have on the airbus.

[travel thickness]

The one with the neuron has returned home and is now sharing it with the other two.
One neuron..three ahem...people.....no wonder the posts are assinine.
Joining dates..may august november 2005.
Same.... ahem...person...3 different user names...Paul you are naughty

[lowerlobe]

I go out to have a nice lunch and a wine or two and when I come back I see that the usual culprits are doing their best to start fights again.......

Travel Thickness....I suggest that you learn how to use spell checker before your next post.I'm glad though that you know what a neuron is.

It is asinine not assinine.....Perhaps that was a Freudian slip though.....

It is inanity not innanity.... and that is probably another Freudian slip as well.

Somethings never change and it's probably because you work with Twiggs.

lowerlobe181

[travel thickness]

It was not a spelling mistake..it was deliberate...ASSinine.
I dont work with Twiggs.
You are retired..so butt out

[lowerlobe]

Travel Thickness......

It was not a spelling mistake..it was deliberate...ASSinine.

If you insist but how do you explain innanity ?

I dont work with Twiggs.

The sir doth protest too much, methinks.

Looking at your keen investigative mind TT and seeing that you are able to deduce that 3 people are in fact one.This based on the simple fact that they all joined PPrune in the one year shows your brilliance.

Therefore someone with your undoubted abilities I believe would most likely be in the office.

I'm not too sure about Paul but Richard perhaps?:E:E:E

[cartexchange]

lower lobe's comments are welcome and valid, he may be retired but at least he is still concerned about our conditions, much more that you are trav thick.

After all this is a forum where people express their concerns and ideas and the FAAA goon squad try and censor it

[twiggs]

Looking at your keen investigative mind TT and seeing that you are able to deduce that 3 people are in fact one.This based on the simple fact that they all joined PPrune in the one year shows your brilliance.


The pot calling the kettle black!
You use similar flawed logic to decide that I don't fly so don't ridicule others when they do the same.

lower lobe's comments are welcome and valid, he may be retired but at least he is still concerned about our conditions, much more that you are trav thick.


Actually I agree with cartexchange, lately lowerlobe has really been quite rational with his posts, a total change from the "Mr Negativity" when he was flying.
Your not doing a "Silverchair" on us are you lobe?
Be careful, you will lose your fans if you lose your edge!;)

[DEFCON4]

C'mon we are all getting a bit excited.
Dont villify MM until the EBA is complete and then lets scrutinize all the components.
I have faith in him.
He has kept us on an even keel.
I have seen have a go at the Black Widow.He is not about to sell anyone out.
So lets all calm down and wait for the final outcome shall we.

[Shlonghaul]

Joining dates..may august november 2005.


And with TTs June 2005. Let me just check the mirror to see that you're not me.......no, well thank goodness for that. Perhaps you can add a number after your name so that it makes it easier for we apparently mentally deficient to weed out the posts from the numbered goons and those of us concerned enough about our future and of those coming through the ranks to have a healthy debate.

Ny...Ny...Ny....what happened to my sparring partner Guardian1/2? :E

I have seen have a go at the Black Widow.
Damn I did'nt know he was that desperate!! :eek: In anycase leave her she's mine, she's mine!! :E

[DEFCON4]

This will be closed soon.
But then again, thats your intention isnt it?
QF management would like nothing better than to have this thread closed and you are about to give them an early Christmas Present.
Well done...you morons!!!

[Eden99]

twiggs you are right..cartexchange cannot read a newsletter and he criticises a dispensation about an A330-200 not even knowing that there are only 4 current crew rest seats, plus the high comfort seat.

Says it all really, he speaks with such apparent knowledge and wisdom, but in reality he has no clue!

You have Mijatov, Reed at the FAAA desperately trying to prevent redundancies and they are defammed in this forum by the likes of cartexchange. Such a hero, i'd like to see him say it in front of MM :)

On Monday (most probably) a big story will become public and then all will see whether MM was exaggerating as to the threat to Long Haul and the need to be flexible .

Me thinks cartexchange on Monday will be demanding that the FAAA gives a million dispensations.


STANDBY FOR MORE .

[lowerlobe]

Eden & Defcon....

How about giving the name calling a rest?

There are some here that without a doubt would like the thread closed down and name calling only helps that cause.

No one doubts that negotiations with the company are ever easy especially now.

Even so I find the 1 million shares given to Dixon at the AGM extra-ordinary given the take over debacle.

Any claim by the company that it is doing it tough should be laughed at.

It has just placed the largest commercial aircraft order in history.The company said that it would not affect it's credit rating by doing so.

That is another way of saying that it is buying them with cold hard cash and doesn't need to borrow the money.

[speedbirdhouse]

Come on guys.
It seems pretty clear to me that the dispensations that some are crying blue murder about shouldn't just be looked at in isolation.

The FAAA have asked us via news letters to wait for the outcome of our EBA negotiations before passing judgement and to trust that they have our best interests at heart.

I can't imagine how the reponsibility must weigh on those who are CHOOSING to negotiate against QF in an effort to maintain our terms, conditions and continued career aspirations.

Especially in these industrial climes and FWIW I'm bloody grateful to have people who quite obviously care philosophically enough to do so.

How about we all just calm down a bit and safe any criticisms for when we can all see the big picture.........

[RedTBar]

Ok Eden Niner Niner,You have our attention and I'm sure we are all waiting for the news.If it is not released by monday will you tell us ?
As you are not MM or SR or anyone else in the faaa then you should have no probs posting it here.

[mrpaxing]

another glass of chardyand wait for monday:}

[RedTBar]

That's the best idea I've heard of all day:E

[equity38]

Just been up to Lax.

Apparently, according to some crew i know, they have heard that some of the people that were voted out of the FAAA are going to run a team against Mijatov. They are going to try to undermine any EBA announced by the FAAA.

That would be hilarious. Don't these people who were rejucted before realise how on the nose they still are? :)

[cartexchange]

what you actually listen to that crap that is "discussed" around the LAX pool.
for the moment MM is safe, that is safe depending on the outcome of the EBA.
Anyway its in his interest to negotiate a good EBA otherwise he will have to fly under it as he wont last the onslaught from the crew if a bad one is achieved ( get my drift)
At the moment he is keeping the masses quiet..........

[RedTBar]

Pool side stories are one thing and have been for many years.Thats gripping stuff I'm sure but The real deal is the big news that Eden promised and has told us will rock our socks.
equity38 when your in the bunker tomorro ask Eden to let us know the goss.
Tbar007

[RedTBar]

Thanks Midnight for that info and it looks like the story that Eden was talking about allright.
I liked the bit about the company warning Labor not to change the IR laws.
That is the attitude of the company that has never changed.
The Spirit of Australia my backside.

[Pegasus747]

It would certainly appear that the rhetoric coming out of the FAAA for the last couple of years is on the money!!

For those naysayers that maintain that the FAAA dispensations are the end of the world, I would suggest that the above article totally vindicates the position of the current FAAA leadership.

The message from the Bunker has consistently been that sensible and pragmatic decisions and cool heads are essential. Thank God we got rid of Broome, Brem, Morrison and Dalton et al

Could you imagine the mantra to qantas from them..get stuffed to everything Qantas requests and playing to the "pool crowd" in LA rather than a sensible pragmatic approach....it's no wonder that the FAAA has being saying how complex these negotiations are....

[RedTBar]

It's great to see you back andrew,sorry I mean pegasus:E
I think it's fairly safe to say that those ex players in the faaa will not be back after their screw up so you can give that 'rhetoric' the flick.
Is this just another poker move by the company or are they really going to go ahead with watering down the spirit of Australia?
I know what you are saying about negotiations but you have to have a line in the sand somewhere.
Otherwise you will give everything away I mean where do you stop just to save your job.
This is where I would like to hear what the company wants.At the very least the media would love it and I don't think the company would.If they want to play the game then so should the faaa.
Eden how did the union and the herald find out about the new company?

[mrpaxing]

qf has enough options currently to utilise akl/bkk/lhr to expand (even under the current workchoice laws). qf uses every available avenue to push their cause. now,MM you always can start the industrial game , lets see how many cancellations come in. this would even the playing field a bit.
i repeat i think qf is in no hurry to have any results.:yuk:

[stubby jumbo]

Agree T-bar, 'nice to see you back Andrew.

Hows the life after QF/FAAA going?

Your opinion is well respected on this Forum.

The article in the smh looks sounds ominous to me, but lets wait & see and HOPE that the Black Widow does't play off us like Chumps.:ouch:

[DEFCON4]

This not a game of poker.This is not a threat..... its reality.
Get with the programme...this is 2007 not 1967.
Qantas does not care about you or public perception.
It has always been about reducing labour costs and breaking the unions.
What would your response be if you received a DCM(Compulsory Redundancy) in the mail....They Can't do this.?
Guess what?.... they can.
Your wife and kids may ask you why their lifestyle has changed.
What answer will you give them?

[lowerlobe]

There are a few points that I think are relevant....

This is basically strike breakers version II....

It does not cost much if anything in the scheme of things to register a company on paper and play one of the oldest game in the books.The sky will fall if you don't Bend Over.....

Is it just me or is this one of the best contradictions from Dixon I have heard.

At Qantas' annual meeting last week, Mr Dixon said: "As we become more and more a global company, we will also need the flexibility to source more jobs offshore as part of a mix that will provide the platform for long-term jobs growth and sustainability within Australia."

As far as I know QF has always been a global company as it's main job is an international airline.

Let me see if I understand Dixon....To protect Australian jobs we need to hire more people overseas.....WTF...

Qantas also has crew bases in London and Bangkok, and the union-negotiated cap which restricts Qantas to employing 870 foreign crew has been rendered obsolete because of the WorkChoices laws.

What happens then if Rudd wins and removes Work Choices?

Does this then mean that the EBA is enforceable and the company cannot legally increase the overseas bases more than the current limit of 870?

I think TBar is right and it might be time to play hard ball with the company.

This is especially after this news item this morning on the profitability of the company.....

QANTAS and Virgin Blue are on track for record profits due to a rising exchange rate offsetting much of the profit drag caused by higher than expected fuel costs.

Global broking firm Merrill Lynch has upgraded its full year profit forecasts for both airlines.

Clients of the firm were told last week that with each 1 per cent rise in the Australian dollar would, the Qantas profit could rise 2 per cent.

"All other things being equal, if we assume the AUD/USD average parity for the 2008 financial year, this would raise our forecast by 30 per cent, " Merrill's noted as the Aussie continued to trade strongly against the Greenback.

Merrill's gave Virgin Blue a similarly bullish report card, saying that like Qantas, it too would report a better than expected outcome with a 25 per cent improvement in after tax profit.

"Like Qantas, if we were to assume the AUD/USD moves to parity we would be looking at a further 32 per increase in our 2008 financial year forecast," the broker noted.

[DEFCON4]

LobeLess there are a lot of Wot Ifs in your rhetoric.
Lets see who wins next weeks election before we start beating the war drums.
Its easier to fight standing on granite rather than on sand

[lowerlobe]

Defcon....

Let's see if you can actually continue your argument without your infantile habit of name calling?...Or is it you that wants this thread closed?

I was asking valid questions in response to a press release which most people would find arrogant in the least.

[watch your6]

While you are entitled to post your opinions and perceptions here lobe,your credibility and relevance are seriously undermined by your QF employment status:you are an outsider.
This is a serious issue for those of us who are still employed by the rat.
You are and always have been a stirrer and devils advocate, contributing little in the way of constructive and sensible argument.
You have, in your more cornered moments, seen fit to malign and name call.So get of your high horse and come to terms with your irrelevance.
Enjoy your retirement.

[lowerlobe]

watch your6............Yes it's true that I am retired but I'd like you to show us some of your constructive comments in your posts....all 10 of them.

Instead of having a go at me why don't you address the issue here and tell us your view in a constructive way?

At least I was crew so how do we know who is really posting here including you watch your6?

You could be company or union or anyone really....

[watch your6]

The same can be said of you ..how does anyone know if you are/were crew?.We just have your dubious word.
Everyone here is anonymous and their true identities and motives are always open to question.
You are stating the obvious.
You do however use spellchecker very well
As was stated earlier "lets wait until the election is over".We will then have a clearer understanding of what our options are.
Good Luck to MM and his team.They have an enormous responsibility,which they appear to be handling well.

[lowerlobe]

watch your6..............EXACTLY......My point though is not to just fall over in a heap because of this press release and give in.

Wait until the election is over and see if they can do the things they are threatening.

As far as my relevance here is concerned I have a son that wants to get a job as crew.So in a direct way I do have a reason to be interested.

[captainrats]

I am retired.I flew for 32 years.
It causes me a great deal of concern that Cabin Crew have deteriorated into such a rabble.
If you get done over you will have only yourselves to blame.
Wake up and realise that Dixon is the enemy...not your colleagues.

[stubby jumbo]

I thought I would give a call to my CCTM( cough !) to ask her opinion of the Scott Rochfort artcle in todays smh.
After 4 attempts being passed around by BOS, "not she's at Morning tea ???","she'll call you back " ..............she called me back ater 3 hours.:mad::mad:

I asked her the question.

Her response..." errr ahhhh ....what article, mmmm ahhhh ahhhh , I don't know anything about it, ahhha mmmmm we already have a London base ".

I then said ..........."could you find out what is happening, as I think this is an important issue?".

She'll " ..... get back to me":suspect:

These morons really are amazing...........'though why am I surprised??:ugh:

Me thinks the QF spin team ( Belinda de Rome et al) leaked this out to Scotty last night, just in time to kick things off on the right foot this morning at EBA negotiations.

Call me a cynic ...........but this Company is ethically and morally bankrupt.( as if you didn't already know this)

All I can say is ....ROLL ON SATURDAY.

Then its :

BOOT....and good riddance.:D

[mrpaxing]

on this one WT6. first i wait till the monday announcement from the faaa comes. secondly i shall concentrate on the big game in the country. another chardy then:}

[Eden99]

I think you already have had too much chardy as you put it.

The announcement that i refered to occurred today in the Syd Morning Herald .

Get with the program!:)

[Razor]

The arrogance of some with numbers after their name is breathtaking.
Sounds like my way or the highway to me.
Freedom of speech, coming in at a discussion on an angle is not a hanging offence.
I just hope you aren't on the negotiating team.

[Eden99]

Razor it's not numbers after a name that is important...it's brains in the head that count.

You don't have either.

[Shlonghaul]

Razor, :D
Good comments that you posted and you certainly cut a raw nerve with eden66 who is rapidly losing the plot.......and the numbers. Even if you are an FAAA supporter any comment offering a differing opinion to their's is met with derision and it was no surprise that a numbered goon came in after your post with a catty comment......that should be no surprise either!! :E

Also no surprise was yesterday's newspaper article. This company is so un-Australian now it's disgraceful. As is the obscene amount of executive bonuses. At a time of record profit's you would think Australian's would be assured of a job but our esteemed management, some with apparent psychopathic tendencies, just loves to inflict as much pain as possible. It will be a very interesting EBA and I can only wish our negotiating team well.

[lowerlobe]

Eden....

I'm sure we all agree that Darth is the one we should focus on.

You are just giving more ammunition to those who are critical of the FAAA's attitude.

What exactly is the union's position and information on how the Labor Government would change the IR laws if it wins office.

How would these changes then impact the company's position and ability to hire off shore as implied in the SMH article on Monday?

[surfside6]

Are you asking these questions because
1.You dont know the answers...or
2.You are again playing Devils Advocate?
If its one (1.)then buy yourself a copy of readers digest.
If its two( 2)then you are playing to a very small audience of about 10 CC PPruners and the question quickly becomes irrelevant.Anyone who is concerned about these issues would already have an idea of the answer.

[lowerlobe]

.......Readers digest....Is that where you get your latest info from surfside?

If there are only 10 people looking at Pprune why then do Eden,Guardian,yourself and some FAAA supporters go to the trouble of refuting posts made by people who want to ask the FAAA a question?

Why not answer a simple question.....that is if you know?

This is simply a forum for discussion and rumour but it would appear that some here are not happy with this.

Why would that be surfside?

[surfside6]

Lobey sees reds under the bed.
Everyone in the FAAA has a hidden agenda that is tangential to the wants and needs of the LH CC population.
Those at the FAAA work their butts off,give of their time to further job security of LH crew and are maligned for their efforts.
Lobey is so concerned that he never ever volunteered to stand for election to the FAAA.He prefers to snipe,criticize and malign from the sidelines.
You are now retired,with no doubt plenty of time on your hands.
Offer them your invaluable assistance and insight.I'm sure it would be much appreciated.

[lowerlobe]

.....So you still don't want to answer a few simple questions.....

The rest is just the usual examples of infantile diversionary rhetoric....

[surfside6]

You are hilarious.
You accuse others of using the same tactics that you have no doubt perfected over a lifetime and then have the gall to complain.
Get over yourself you pultroon

[stubby jumbo]

ohh paleeeeze!!!!

Get over it.

We're heading for the usual regurgitated bile that seems to infect this forum.

The topic is the EBA.
The man in the crosshairs is the bloke that resides at Balmoral.
The first part of the solution.......punt the member for Bennelong.

Simple.

"life is like a pubic hair on a toilet seat........
...........'sooner or later you get pissed off !"

[twiggs]

Here's all the answers you need lobe, cartex and tbar:

21 November 2007 ID74-07

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

WHERE IS THE FAIR GO?

It is with considerable sadness and disappointment that a newsletter of this nature has to be issued.

Several people have contacted me the last few days in relation to the following matters that are being circulated by a small but distinct group of crew.


MICHAEL MIJATOV IS RECEIVING KICKBACKS FROM QANTAS

It is being suggested that I am receiving “kickbacks” from Qantas in relation to the EBA negotiations.

I became an elected official of the FAAA in 1997 to protect and further all of your interests. I have been direct and honest with our membership at all times. I am in no ones “pocket” and have never received any kickback from anyone including Qantas. The only kickbacks I have received from Qantas at various times since 1997, are “verbal and written kicks”, because I have defended your interests at all times without fear or regard to the repercussions to myself.

I value my reputation like most of you. I have no objection whatsoever to criticism about my policies, my leadership of the FAAA, my record or my achievements or lack thereof. I will not however, have my name and reputation impugned by cowards spreading lies.

I will take immediate legal action against anyone who defames or impugns me. I remind those who wish to continue with this sort of behaviour that in addition to the legal remedies available to me, they are also breaching Qantas’ Standards of Conduct and Code of Conduct Policies by inferring that Qantas is acting illegally by providing me with inducements, bribes or other illegal payments. Additionally, these irresponsible and cowardly individuals are breaking the FAAA Rules by making a false charge against a fellow member.

Perhaps these individuals might wait until the FAAA and I have a new EBA to present to you, before they rush to judgement and execution.

MICHAEL MIJATOV HAS SIGNED OFF THE EBA AND ALSO GIVEN AWAY THE BID SYSTEM

The Workplace Relations Act states that an EBA can only come into force once crew approve a proposed new EBA by a majority vote.

Michael Mijatov, the FAAA nor the Almighty himself can unilaterally sign off a new EBA or give away conditions. Only YOU the membership can do that as provided for the by the Law of Australia.

IF KEVIN RUDD WINS EVERYTHING WILL CHANGE AND WE CAN HAVE STOPPAGES AND STRIKES AND GET EVERYTHING THAT WE WANT

The FAAA under my leadership has been strongly recommending that our members vote for the Labor Party.

Many of the excesses of the current unfair and harsh WorkChoices law will be altered if Labor wins. What will not be altered, is the ability of any employer to run their business in the most efficient and competitive manner.

For us this means NO extra work will be directed to Long Haul unless Qantas can obtain a more productive and efficient Long Haul. That is the fact of the matter and the simple reality. I and my other elected colleagues do not like that fact, however that is the way it is and the FAAA has to deal with facts rather than fantasy to ensure we are protected.

I look forward to announcing a new EBA and having the chance to see as many of you as possible at the meetings that I will call to explain any new agreement that might be reached. It will be up to you after these meetings are completed, to vote for or against such an agreement in a secret ballot organised by Qantas as required by Law.

Each of you, including the cowards that I referred to in this newsletter, will be in a perfect position to decide if I am in the pocket of the Company and/or receiving kickbacks once we announce the details of a proposed EBA8. Our members will also be in a position at that point to decide if any “sellout” by the FAAA or me has occurred.


Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division

[DEFCON4]

I hope MM sues the Basturds to within an inch of their fiscal lives.

[cartexchange]

twiggs why did you refer to myself,lobe and t bar in the heading of the FAAA newsletter.
Please indicate when and where I or any of the other posters have made those accusations on this site I can assure you that you wont find any because accusations like that are revolting! holding the FAAA officials accountable for their actions is quite different to what has been stated in that letter.
you sad person twiggs!

[twiggs]

So touchy aren't we carty.
I was referring to answers to those questions you keep wanting from the FAAA ie parts 2 and 3 of the newsletter, I was not accusing you of defaming Michael.

[lowerlobe]

Twiggsy girl.....

So touchy aren't we carty.

A touch of facetiousness there Twiggsy Girly as well as being more than a little disingenuous.....

If not then you would have clarified your post about MM's newsletter........but as usual........

However twiggsy girly ,that is not the point of your post and that is only to stir trouble once again.

In fact MM did not answer any questions because if you really read his newsletter all he is saying is that a company has the right to source the cheapest labour....Something the company will tell you ad nauseam

That as most people would agree is blindingly obvious and not really an answer to the questions I asked.

The rest of his newsletter is about defamation and at no stage have I or to the best of my knowledge Tbar or cartexchange posted a claim that MM or any union official is or was corrupt.

To be critical is not to defame.

It is good to see that none of you is MM as he tells us that he doesn't mind criticism as opposed to those union supporters on PPrune.

I was content to not post anything that could be construed as inflammatory until the EBA is announced but with again Twiggsy girls post I felt obliged.

I await now for the inevitable infantile name calling from the usual suspects as well as Twiggsy's usual attempts to clarify her previous posts...

[twiggs]

Defcon....

Let's see if you can actually continue your argument without your infantile habit of name calling?...Or is it you that wants this thread closed?

Twiggsy girl.....Twiggsy Girly.....twiggsy girly

Lobe, you are such a hypocrite, maybe you are the one that is wanting the thread closed?
We wouldn't want the amount of correct information posted to exceed the crap now would we?

[lowerlobe]

From lowerlobe...I await now for the inevitable infantile name calling from the usual suspects

Lobe, you are such a hypocrite

Just as I said........

From Twiggsy

We wouldn't want the amount of correct information posted to exceed the crap now would we?

Apparently you don't twiggsy!!!!

[RedTBar]

OK guys we know there is no point in doing this post after silly post.How about we wait for the eba details to be given by the faaa and then talk about it.

The next person to make a smart comment is the one who wants to get this closed.

[qfpaypacket]

isn't this a PILOTS rumour network? when did it become a flight attendant site?

[Shlonghaul]

Ohh crikey here we go again! If you read through the forums you will see threads for engineers, freight, atc, cabin crew etc etc AND :eek: pilots.

Will someone please pass a colouring book and some crayons to qfpaypacket so they can make themself useful. :E

[travel thickness]

Dixon...."Im not happy 'til you're not happy
(credit to Chimbu Warrior)
Pretty much sums up the whole shebang.
Worth a T Shirt at least...or....
The Black Widow's Got One....Scrotum Face is one.

[Crusty Demon]

PPrune is a Professional Pilots rumour network. Not a childish name calling cabin crew forum. Why don't you people go over to the cabin crew section of this forum and continue your crap, or go to one of the dedicated cabin crew websites?

This pathetic dribble just gives QF people an already worse name.

[lowerlobe]

Crusty Demon...

I'd like to point out a few salient facts that are and obviously not apparent to you.

Firstly,this thread is headed Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew and as such I would imagine that you should be able to determine what that means.

Secondly,I doubt anyone is putting a gun to your head or making any other threats so as to make you read a thread clearly labelled Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew.

Thirdly,The heading of this area of PPrune is clearly labelled D & G Reporting which is generally known as Dunnunda and Godzone.

This is further defined by the moderators of PPrune as..

An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.

Now it may be that you as a pilot are unaware of the fact that there are actually other people that work in aviation and not just pilots.

Note that the description say's..."All aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene".....

Fourth,You really can't tell me that other threads with pilots have not been become heated and various name calling occurred.

Lastly,If you don't want to read anything about cabin Crew then don't....

[stubby jumbo]

Hey Krusty----- as in Clown.

Do like you do on the flight deck when you reach the right speed.

V-1 .............and rotate!

[mrpaxing]

MM's chest would have grown by an mini inch after last nights "slaughter" of the libs. i hope the managers in the bunker get a reality check now. my prediction GD will be gone in 08:}

[And5678]

At short notice there is an opportunity for crew to complete extra hours this weekend. It will occur at QCC and involve shredding 3000 odd AWA's which needs to be completed by Monday morning.

Anyone interested?

:)

[mrpaxing]

managers going to be shredded as well???????:
i can see dicko being mighty nervous as his lovechild porn* will have to offer common law contracts all around. i am sure he is going to bill mainline for it:eek:

[lowerlobe]

This is certainly a win for the QF employees who are negotiating their EBA's.

Darth would not be happy today.......

And5678....I like that post of yours....very good...

[stubby jumbo]

I've only just woken up from a huge night celebrating.

To think I got up the Daily Double-Howard out and Kevin in-love it:D

Kevin 11 here we come !!!

:O:O:O;):):):):)

[Eden99]

Yes stubby good quinella.....
Good to see Howard finally get what he desreved.
The federal terms are 3 year terms..so it will be Kevin 10 .

Now for the L/H EBA outcome.... something in my bones tells me it will be announced very very shortly. :)

[blueloo]

Anyone know waht happened to Cabin Crew (male ) in J'berg?

I understand its meant to be a bit hush hush from the company.

[cartexchange]

yes my sources tell me it was nasty.

his wife has been flown over, as he is in a bad state!

there were no managers at QCC as they all had to meet the aircraft as it got in from joburg.

[indamiddle]

ok, i accept something happened in j'burg.
can anyone out there spread any light on what happened?
fact or rumour will do, just clarify which one it is

[DEFCON4]

It is really not appropriate to be discussing this situation in an open public forum.
The person involved and his family are suffering enough.
This incident further highlights the necessity to remain diligent about your personal safety when in foreign ports.
This can happen to anyone...Lets leave it at that shall we?
If you want more information call the FAAA or talk to your manager.

[And5678]

It is really not appropriate to be discussing this situation in an open public forum.

Hear hear!

[lowerlobe]

Once again the cone of silence descends upon PPrune....

Defcon I find your post curious!

I don't think anyone was asking for names,dates/Hotel room number/Passport number or any other identifying information!

If someone was assaulted or involved in anything dangerous then I can't see any harm in letting others know of the danger in J/Burg without informing personal details.

Certainly nothing more and in fact considerably less than what you would probably read in the paper.

We don't need to know any facts just a generalisation of what happened.

In fact let's see if we can discuss this without any 'name calling' or derision.

[DEFCON4]

You are a curious little person.. always adopting the opposing point of view.
This particular incident has, little, if any concern for you.
In this circumstance you are no better than the ghouls that congregate around an accident scene.
I doubt very much that you know this person or his family....when was the last time you went ot JoBurg on a regular basis?
Ring one of your mates in the office...I'm sure that they would only too happy to provide the information you desire.
If you were the victim would you want everyone to know every sad apalling detail ?.

----------------------------------------------------------

We just got rid of one jerk...you may be next.
FYI....JoBurg is a dangerous place...be careful where you socialize and dont socialize alone

Yes, indeed, a jerk has gone for the next seven days - and he/she got off lightly!

Next time - Adios!!!

:mad:

Tail Wheel

[indamiddle]

defcon4
anyone can be sent to jo'burg
recently a crew signing on to sfo were sent to jo'burg due 'operational requirements'.
what u r suggesting is not logical, we can learn from what happens to others and avoid having one of our own family members being flown out to be with us. it would be twice as stupid if someone else were to suffer from the same circumstances

[DEFCON4]

Read the last sentence of my previous post.
We all can get a little complacent with our environment when away.
Remain diligent when away... drink spiking is now network wide and does not affect women only...Buenos Aires was a perfect example and so too is Singapore..unfortunately.
No matter which way it is said or how man times it is said...BE CAREFUL.
Being careful and aware is the best and only prevention.

[indamiddle]

"being carefull and aware is the best and only prevention"
i agree that being careful is helpfull but information helps awareness.
as far as "only prevention" don't go to jo'burg..... that is the only prevention

[DEFCON4]

The incident occurred in the hotel bar and the victim was removed from the hotel premises...seen by nobody.
It would appear that he was drugged by person or persons unknown.
He is currently in hospital in JoBurg..in a bad way.
If you need further information call your manager or the FAAA.
Treat this as a serious and at present a private matter.
Friends and family are already aware of the circumstances
The details do not need to be communicated to all and sundry.
I have said it twice...I will say it again...no matter where you are BE CAREFUL.
Be particularly careful about where you beverage is and who has access to it.
If it tastes a little peculiar tell someone you know and express your concern about your drink being spiked.Ask someone you know to monitor your behaviour.Contact your CSM or have someone do that for you.If it happens in a hotel ...inform the hotel manager immediately.A police report may be required.If you are able inform QF security and the Port Manager.Do this as soon as possible and while the details may still be fresh(obviously, all this is difficult if you have been drugged).

[indamiddle]

thank you for the info.

[And5678]

Wanting to swing the conversation back to relevance of the thread title I'd like to ask what do people realistically think the outcomes of the negotiations will be? In addition when can we expect a draft to be issued?

[Guardian1]

I think a look at the FAAA website tomorrow morning will be useful And5678:)

[And5678]

Thanks for the tip Guardian1!

:)

[Guardian1]

My pleasure.

[Pegasus747]

27 November 2007

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
HISTORIC EBA 8 IN - PRINCIPLE AGREEMENT REACHED
A FUTURE OF GROWTH AND JOB SECURITY
It is with the greatest pleasure that I announce on behalf of the FAAA negotiating team (Michael Mijatov, Steven Reed, Lee Lam and Michael Purvis) that an historic “In - Principle Agreement” has been reached with Qantas in relation to EBA 8. It is our belief that this agreement will be the cornerstone of unprecedented and unparalleled growth and job security for our members.

The headline features of the new agreement are as follows:-

BENEFITS

5 year agreement.
No Pay cut.
No Increase in hours for existing crew.
3% pay rise per year.
$3000 per person sign on bonus paid on certification.
Unprecedented growth for Long Haul.
Unprecedented job security.
75% of the current flexible flying pool (regional flying) will be flown by Long Haul Cabin Crew (currently 30%).
All new wide bodied aircraft flown internationally by Qantas will be flown by Long Haul crew ( e.g. B787-900).
Continued exclusive access to 7 flights per week to London.
Massive planned recruitment in Long Haul, (over 2000 new crew in the next two years).
550 new positions into Long Haul by June 2008 alone.
Extra crew member on aircraft with Premium Economy.
Massive promotions for existing crew to be announced shortly, (approximately 160 CSS positions and 80 CSM positions).
Securing jobs in Australia rather than overseas .
Qantas has committed to maintaining the current Cap on overseas bases despite the current industrial laws which have rendered the cap inoperative.
No promotions Overseas (except for London Base).
Seniority Preferential Bid System maintained for existing cabin crew.
Unblocking of the preferential bid system with massive increase of new work, with new cabin crew “sitting” underneath existing crew.
Reverse seniority provision applies if compulsory redundancy was to ever occur, included in the new EBA without any qualification, thereby protecting all existing crew members.
Unlimited access to Part-Time for ALL categories (CSM, CSS, BFA, AC).


Salary Sacrifice to be made available for the compulsory employee contribution for Superannuation for Divisions 1,2, and 3 ( an effective pay rise).
Choice of Superannuation fund will be available.
Employer Superannuation contribution increased from 9% to 10% for Division 6.
For those crew who have not used the Free London ticket from the current EBA, the date for use will be extended for 5 years.
Extension of paid Maternity leave from 10 weeks pay to 12 weeks pay.
Parental (Maternity) leave extended from 52 weeks to 104 weeks.
Incorporation of the 1983 Meal Allowance Agreement into the consolidated EBA for the first time in our history.
Incorporation of the current redundancy entitlement payment formula into the EBA.
Incorporation into our EBA of our current Long Service Leave entitlement and arrangements, which currently sit in Qantas policy.
Access to A380 Aircraft with Salary protection for existing crew.
The massive recruitment and universal access to part time will allow crew to transfer to Sydney and allow the recruitment of crew to “right size” smaller Bases.
Flying Line Holders cannot be assigned a standby when pay protected ( roster stability).
Recalculation of duty hour credits when patterns exceed 14 hours unplanned (delay) – additional duty hour credits for projection (as well as overtime).
Retention of Slipping formula (1:1:2) for all Europe, North and South America, Africa, Indian Sub Continent patterns.
New Pay and Conditions for New Starters contained in the EBA (which has secured our job security and protected our conditions, whilst at the same time secured good quality, full time Australian jobs, which would otherwise be sent overseas or to Jetstar etc).
Flight Attendants / BFA with four years service will be able to apply for CSM positions.


CHANGES

Pay Protection now 42 days exclusive of leave ( one offset only)
New Regional Slipping formula in return for transfer of Regional International flying back to Long Haul
Voting in delay situations under the multi sector rule has been removed. In return you will have the extra duty hour credits due to any delay recalculated and included as part of projected line value.


We will be notifying members very shortly of membership meetings where we will be able to explain the changes and the new proposed EBA arrangements in greater detail.

Following the membership meetings and detailed explanations, all flight attendants will receive ballot papers at home and be able to cast a vote in accordance with the Workplace Relations Act.

In summation, I would like to thank the vast majority of crew that have continued to have “faith” in the FAAA and the skills of your EBA negotiating team.

Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division

[surfside6]

An absolutley outstanding piece of negotiation.
Well done Guys!!!

[And5678]

Privately I have been the first to critisize the FAAA and had been pessimistic about EBA8 but this result is simply on first appearances OUTSTANDING!

I'm speechless!

:D

[equity38]

MM delivers and how!!!!

talk about bringing home the bacon.

[blueloo]

The company isnt this nice. What have they got planned. What is the hidden catch.

[left 4 primary]

This is my first ever post, after reading the forums on and off for the last few years.
I just read the Principle agreement for EBA 8 and I realise that it still needs to be ratified by the membership, I couldn't believe it, WELL DONE to Mijatov, Reed and the team.:D.
One concern is allowing FA/BFA to apply for CSM after only 4 years service, by-passing the CSS role. I think this is a mistake, as the CSS position should be viewed as adding valuable experience to becoming a CSM. Treat it like an apprenticeship, for example you wouldn't want a young second officer promoted directly to Captain, by-passing the F/O's position completely.
I appreciate the fact that there are very capable individuals out there who with the right training could do the job and it does allow the company a larger pool to source managers from, but I thought experience counted for something.
How about at least 2 years as a CSS? Otherwise it really degrades the whole position of CSS.

[GalleyHag]

This is a fantastic result for long haul crew, maybe the tables have turned and once again the long haul division will be a strong collective division.

The QF Cabin crew website states all new hire crew will be employed by a new subsidiary QF Cabin Crew Australia Pty Ltd. In regard to the 787 and A380 it states that long haul will have access to this aircraft.

I wonder how this will effect short haul crew wanting to transfer to long haul does the existing crew clause only apply to existing long haul crew in terms of hours, pay, bidding etc? And before we bring up the bands issue for long to short transfers that is something I personally found just wrong and unfair.

[GalleyHag]

From ninemsn

Qantas strikes deal with FAAA

Tuesday Nov 27 12:42 AEDT

Qantas Airways Ltd has struck an in-principle deal for a new five-year enterprise bargaining agreement (EBA) with the peak flight attendants' body, which it says will create more than 2,000 full-time cabin crew jobs in Australia.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon said the new EBA would help Qantas to stay competitive in the highly competitive international aviation sector.

"This is essential to Qantas' continued growth, and builds on our track record of having created 5,000 new jobs since 2001," Mr Dixon said.

"This new EBA provides stability and certainty for Qantas for its long-haul cabin crew for the next five years."

Mr Dixon said Qantas had established a new subsidiary, Qantas Cabin Crew Australia Pty Ltd (QCCA), which will begin hiring cabin crew in early 2008.

"All new crew will be hired by QCCA, which will deliver future jobs growth as well as supporting dedicated crewing for our new A380 fleet," he said.

Mr Dixon said Qantas will maintain its current balance of offshore and onshore crew, with offshore crewing levels remaining at 25 per cent.

"The agreement is a positive outcome for all concerned. It opens up a range of options for current crew. There will be an immediate and significant increase in the number of promotions available, as well as ready access to part-time work for current crew who seek that option."

Mr Dixon said the agreement provided for a three per cent per annum pay increase, a sign-on bonus and improved superannuation arrangements for international cabin crew.

©AAP 2007

[Wingspar]

There has to be something in it for QF!

What is the significance of the new employment company?

[TineeTim]

Every one of the new-hires will be on Jet* wages- more work for less pay- about 50% less than current crew. Great job FAAA......... Check SMH article here (http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/cut-rate-crew-for-qantas/2007/11/27/1196036858284.html).

[Al E. Vator]

New QF FA's will have to work more than 30 per cent greater hours than current Qantas long-haul crews for around 25 per cent less money after a deal between the FA Union and Qantas. This is around half the pay on an hourly basis.

What the hell was the Union thinking?

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has lauded the deal as "a positive outcome for all concerned". "This agreement will help provide the level of competitiveness Qantas must have in the highly competitive international aviation industry," said Mr Dixon in a statement.

What a load of bollocks. The world's largest and most profitable Airline (Air France/KLM) have a WAY WAY higher cost-base than QF. You don't have to savage everything to run a profitable airline.

Seems that Dixon is simply addicted to the 'cut at all costs' mentality (for everything except his own pay, where he received a 47% payrise last year alone).

Perhaps I'm misinformed but the fact that the FA Union played along with this is truly appalling.

[Pegasus747]

The new start flight attendants will enjoy conditions considerably better than Jetstar International. 6 weeks annual leave, 15 days sick leave, Qantas staff travel and overtime and our meal allowances..

Its a significant improvement on current jetstar and creates job security for us

[samford]

Firstly, there is already a thread on this topic.

Secondly, I think the last 8 years has shown that if the FAAA didn't agree to this the consequences would more like have been dire. Expansion to overseas bases and more flying coming to shorthaul.

Personally, I'm rather impressed at the outcome so far.

Well done MM, SR and team.

[samford]

Any idea what the divisor actually is for new incoming crew?

Also, what would a crew member transferring back from short haul expect from all this?

Thanks.

[Pegasus747]

new crew can be planned to a max of 240 hours and will average 220.

This is inline with Short haul crew and the current overseas based crew

18 days off per month at home and access to overtime and full time jobs in australia

[lowerlobe]

Al E. Vator ....

Samford is right in that Darth and other airlines have people falling over themselves to apply for J*.VB and now Tiger.

The win for Rudd aside,the availability of crew willing to basically 'reverse' bid for work undermines your argument to maintain T & C's.

Correct me if I am wrong though but didn't the tech crew union agree to a 'B' scale for pilots transferring to S/H from L/H?

[Pegasus747]

correction to last post ..its 18 days off per bid period

sorry

[samford]

Thanks for that - I knew what you meant. ;-)

I know this will all come out at some stage, but I'm curious about divisional transfers. If all new crew are being employed by a subsidiary company, does this mean no transfer lists need to be actioned?

[lowerlobe]

On first inspection it looks as though congratulations are in order for the FAAA.

It certainly appears as though you guys have managed to pull a rabbit out of the proverbial.

Is it correct that the A380 will have a dedicated crew and that if current L/H crew want to transfer they will keep their current pay and conditions?

All new crew will be hired by QCCA

.....Just curious, is this for L/H or any recruitment for QF cabin crew within Australia?

If this includes S/H,is MAM no longer involved?

[Wingspar]

Ah!

Good to see more divisive QF policy with this time the FAAA stamp of approval!

But hang on.....

To quote MM, The new lower paid crews are entitled to sign up as union members. Afterall they are obviously being looked after!

[samford]

Can't please everyone by the looks of it. Have you been asleep in recent years? :ugh:

[Wingspar]

Wasn't the union but the SH guys at the time!

[lowerlobe]

So there is a 'B' scale for tech crew....

[I'm Driving]

Sorry Lobe, Where?

[lowerlobe]

It looks like my info was right and it is in S/H.

Apparently,it is for tech crew who transferred from L/H after a certain date.

[I'm Driving]

Not quite Lobe. A pilot that takes a promotion to Shorthaul as a Captain, go onto year 1 pay. But after 36 months they are on the same payscale as everyone else. That will not happen in this case.
Also, there is no difference in work rules. That is not a "B" scale.

I do believe you are just ill informed and not trying to play down the immoral thing that the FAAA is trying to do. We live and learn.

[captaintunedog777]

Why don't you post your FA stuff on a appropriate forum. Isn't this site for pilots.

[Wingspar]

There was a "B" scale in SH with the emphasis on was!

It was cleverly introduced by QF before AIPA had coverage of the SH Award back in '94, early '95 from memory. I believe it has since and finally been removed from the CA.

The analogy with the current CC EBA is weak at best!

[samford]

Well, I guess a vote will determine that.

[I'm Driving]

Samford. What will a vote determine? If it's immoral? That's not what your saying, is it?
If this gets up, you guys will know NO FUTURE beyond 5 years. Better make it count.





I take it back. I do care what happens to LH flight attendants.

[indamiddle]

a few qns.
what is the revised regional slip formula?
what exactly is meant by access to the A380?
will 'B' scale have their own bid system? (re reported probs with current system)
will 'B' scale crew be like the akl crew re fatigue?
p.s. galleyhag
re comment a 'stronger collective group'...we will now have 2 groups in oz,
different pay, different hours.
is there now NO LIMIT on duty hours as a result of delays?
anyone with a number after your name is welcome to reply

[Thylacine]

Scott Rochfort
SMH
November 27, 2007 - 4:01PM
Qantas has confirmed it plans to hire 2000 international flight attendants on substantially lower rates of pay over the next three years, after striking a deal with the union representing its long-haul cabin crew.
Following revelations in the Herald last week about Qantas's plans to hire lower paid staff via a new business subsidiary - QF Cabin Crew Pty Ltd - the airline struck a deal with the Flight Attendants Association last night. Under the deal, all new cabin crew will be paid the same as Jetstar crews.
They will also have to work more than 30 per cent more hours than Qantas long-haul crews for around 25 per cent less money, or about half the pay on an hourly basis.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has lauded the deal as "a positive outcome for all concerned".
"This agreement will help provide the level of competitiveness Qantas must have in the highly competitive international aviation industry," Mr Dixon said in a statement.
Qantas will hire the first 550 lower paid crew by June next year in preparation for the first deliveries of its Airbus A380 superjumbos. The airline's introduction of Boeing 787s into its fleet will require it to ramp up its crew numbers dramatically by 2010.
However, in a bid to appease its existing 3000 long-haul cabin crew based in Australia, Qantas has agreed to a new five-year pay deal.
Under the agreement, existing crews will get a 3 per cent per annum pay rise, increased superannuation benefits, extra parental leave and improved chances of promotion. If the deal is approved by members of the Flight Attendants Association of Australia's long-haul arm, existing crews will also get a $3000 sign-on bonus. Existing crews will also not have to work the extra 50-odd hours the new lower-paid crews will have to work each eight -week roster period.
In a bid to arrest the low morale among its cabin crew, Qantas has agreed to boost the number of crews on its 747s (with the new premium economy class) with one new crew member and provide more flying hours on regional routes in Asia to long-haul crew. At present Qantas has increased numbers of low-paid casual staff and domestic flight attendants on flights into China, India and Hong Kong.
Qantas has also agreed to cap the level of overseas cabin crew at 25 per cent, or after the new crew intake, at about 1250. This will allow Qantas to hire about 400 more crew at its Auckland, Bangkok and London bases.
The Flight Attendants Association of Australia has claimed victory. The head of its international division Michael Mijatov said the union had "secured the future of existing cabin crew and beyond that improved" their pay and conditions.
In light of Qantas making 1000 long-haul cabin crew redundant in recent years - despite growing its fleet - Mr Mijatov said there was the risk Qantas could make the remainder of its Australian crews redundant and replace them with lower paid non-unionised crews on AWAs.
"We were looking down the barrel of actually being shut down," he said. The new lower paid crews are entitled to sign up as union members.
Despite the fact that the new cabin crew members hired by the airline will be on lower pay, Mr Mijatov said the union had secured some good benefits for them compared with Jetstar crews.
Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon has lauded the deal as "a positive outcome for all concerned"

[indamiddle]

how come only crew in super division 6 get an increase in contributions to their super?
...in 2010 2000 'B' scale, lets assume still 3000 'A' scale.
now with all the new planes coming online what happens when 'B' scale crew outnumber 'A' scale? they could possibly take control of longhaul faaa division', use an eba to red circle the 'A' group in exchange for a base pay increase for 'B's.
is this possible?

[indamiddle]

what happens when 'B' scale outnumber 'A scale.
who gets shafted then?

[Pegasus747]

There have been various scales in the Long Haul Cabin Crew area for many years now.

Bangkok, Auckland. London

In short haul they have crew that get bands pay and those that dont as well as MAM casuals who get no holiday pay, sick leave or job security.

In long haul we have had 1200 crew made redundant and a gradual transferring of our work to AKL, BKK, LHR and Short HAul as well as the MAM Casuals in the last few years.

Moral High ground is a nice place to be but it doesnt pay mortgages and school fees.

What the FAAA has done has tried to protect its existing members whilst creating Quality FULL TIME jobs in Australia rather than overseas or casual jobs with no security.

Sure the conditions of existing crew ( much of which from 1974) and no longer competitive are quarantined for us , but for those that would suggest a more moral approach are no looking down the barrel of anhilation through compulsory redundancy and tranfer of work to others.

I have total respect for pilots that have a significant marketable skill, however flight attendants have no major skill that other airlines will pick up and ANsett crew found out when it went belly up.

The FAAA and Long Haul crew have tried to make the best of a daunting situation. I for one would not like to see our jobs go the way of the manufacturing jobs in australia by clinging to notions of moral high ground whilst not being able to feed my kids and being made redundant or restructured to to lack of competitive productivity

[Pegasus747]

In relation to all questions being posted on here.....

If you are an FAAA member i suggest that you call your representatives and get very detailed information.

for those that are not FAAA members you have no business discussing FAAA affairs and the business of long haul crew.....

further, if you ARE an FAAA member you will be able to attend one of many comprehensive and detail briefings that will be held for MEMBERS

[stubby jumbo]

First it was JW Howard.........booted to oblivion.

Second........Kevin 07 a reality.

Now this,

Well Done to all concerned.

I can't help but think though, WHATS THE CATCH???

After a decade of lies, deceit and spin-WHY would they settle on this??

Sure, I realise its all about a B-scale.

Anyway.......a good result for those who resisted the lure of the last 5 rounds of VR.

Wonder how our Short Haul "colleagues" are feeling about this?

I heard on good authority that they were invited to attend a joint round of EBA discussions............their response???

V-1.................ROTATE

[DirectAnywhere]

The catch for you probably - perhaps? - isn't there. It's for all the crew who follow.

I suppose at some stage, however, anyone on EBA8 employed by QANTAS could all be made redundant once they've got enough crew employed by their labour hire company.

Why would they want to keep you at a 50% higher effective hourly rate? Or will they let natural attrition thin your ranks? I somehow doubt it. You'll get no support from you new colleagues either.

There's always a catch.

It's easier to make such comments from the outside looking in though. Good luck either way gents and ladies (I mean that sincerely). You may need it long term.

[Keg]

blueloo was on the ball.

I must admit that when I read it on Qrewroom that I thought the same thing. Far too good and there was something I was missing. The B scale was it!

(I won't kid myself that a B scale for techies like this deal wouldn't get voted up either. Something like this for pilots would get up 60:40 I reckon.)

[indamiddle]

ok, ok
i accept that we take the moral low ground

[ScottyDoo]

Why don't you post your FA stuff on a appropriate forumThe Rat hosties were kicked out of the hosties' forum for being an utter pain-in-the-arse and arguing bitterly amongst themselves, thereby lowering the tone of the place. They don't want them and now we have to put up with them.

I see JetScar have also been foisted upon us, but they only made the GA forum. :rolleyes:

Why do aussie hosties have such a bad rap around here??? :hmm:

[ScottyDoo]

They will also have to work more than 30 per cent more hours than Qantas long-haul crews for around 25 per cent less money...about half the pay

That's going to make for some wonderful dynamics in the cabin. Who's the loser? Probably the paying passenger.

Dixon has lauded the deal as "a positive outcome for all concerned".

"a positive outcome for all concerned" no doubt means he gets yet another performance bonus for trimming the fat.

...in a bid to appease its existing 3000 long-haul cabin crew based in Australia, Qantas has agreed to a new five-year pay deal...existing crews will get a 3 per cent per annum pay rise, increased superannuation benefits, extra parental leave and improved chances of promotion.

Paid for by the youthful and enthusiastic crew of tomorrow, the ones they should be enticing in.

Existing crews will also not have to work the extra 50-odd hours the new lower-paid crews will have to work each eight -week roster period.

So all the old hags get off and leave the extra to do another sector.

In a bid to arrest the low morale among(st) its cabin crew, Qantas has agreed to boost the number of crews on its 747s ...with one new crew member

The one extra crew being facilitated by the advent of new-joiners, the same lot who were screwed by the rest of the crew... mmm - fun times ahead!

The Flight Attendants Association of Australia has claimed victory. The head of its international division Michael Mijatov said the union had "secured the future of existing cabin crew and beyond that improved" their pay and conditions....at the expense of tomorrow's crew. What happened to a sense of a fair go? I thought the FAAA stood for something more than snatch-and-grab?

The new lower paid crews are entitled to sign up as union members.

Something in that statement says Michael doesn't expect many of them to embrace the FAAA enthusiastically. Wonder why... goodonya Mike :ok:

[Pegasus747]

It's not for me to speak for the FAAA in relation to your question midnight, however i am reliably informed that all new recruits will need to go through an interview process.

I think there are a lot of ozzies here with "casual" jobs who would require very little training who would love "full time" jobs. Many are obviously suitable as are the young people in new zealand. It would be highly desirable that these people be given priority given an existing level of experience and committment to Qantas, particularly those that you mention and the casuals.

Given that the union has negotiated the return of traditional International Regional Flying to Long Haul (where it rightfully belongs) i would imagine that the 1000 jobs being recruited into Long Haul in the next 12 months or so would come from just these groups.

Their experience will seriously reduce Qantas' training costs too

[funbags]

The B Scale that the FAAA has agreed to really doesn't surprise me. As if current cabin crew give a "rats" about what pay and conditions future joiners will be on.

It's all about "me, me ,me"! What's in it for me! :rolleyes:

[funbags]

The B Scale that the FAAA has agreed to really doesn't surprise me. As if current cabin crew give a "rats" about what pay and conditions future joiners will be on.

It's all about "me, me ,me"! What's in it for me! :rolleyes:

[Pegasus747]

Can we please put some perspective on the moral high ground debate.

Long Haul crew currenty work along side crew from Auckland who work 240 hours a roster for about 25K, the Bangkok crew get about 10K plus meal allowances.

These have been the areas of growth for qantas. The new B scale will mean new recruits will gross about 55K pa. I would have thought that although not as much as current crew for historical reasons; a decent wage for a full time job in Australia.

These people will have opportunity for promotions and get decent Qantas conditions too. New CSM rate is 70K plus allowances, hardly something to sneeze at and better than jetstar csm (46K)

I think that the majority of crew who authorsied the union to negotiate a new entry rate , would appreciate the challenges of maintaining work inn australia as opposed to more jobs overseas.

These will be good quality Australian jobs, i would gladly let my kids apply for these jobs and am glad they are here in OZ

[regionalguy]

Pegasus

I'm just wondering will the casuals (MAM) be able to afford to take the new jobs at long haul ? I mean they (MAM) are very well paid and I'm sure I read on the other thread that the new salaries were the same as Jetstar which is about 32K, with a week more annual leave and 5 days more sick leave + overtime, i would think that the current C MAMs earn more than that now..

Seriously just a question not a criticism

Its ok, I've just read the other thread and the new posts gave me my answer, 55K for new LH recruits. I'm pretty sure its a pay cut for MAM C's but a full time job.......

[Pegasus747]

well i think that if they want to stay working casual thats a choice for them. MAM is just a labour hire company, they dont get 6 weeks annual leave, they dont get 15 days sick leave, they dont get cash meal allowances or qantas staff travel benefits.

To earn the money that they get i understand many are only getting 5-6 days off a month and working 140 to 160 hours a month to make a good income. They are only guaranteed 80 hours a month which is not enough for many to live on i understand.

If they want a full time job with a future and promotion they will at least be able to do it in Australia now

[call button]

If Long haul crew will be crewing 75% of the regional flying (and currently only crew 30%), then a huge amount of flying will be removed from the short haul division.

Short haul have in recent times, also been managing a surplus, with lots of crew currently on LWOP. With a forecast huge reduction in flying, it will be interesting to see the effect on MAM.

Will MAM casuals be the first to be offered these 'low paid' full time long haul positions? Also does Maurice Alexander have a roll in Qantas' new FA hire company? Or has he been cut out in the race to the bottom?

[Pegasus747]

i can only speculate but i would imagine that many mam flight attendants would like a full time job.

the new conditions are quite good for a young person

about 35K base salary
overtime
cash meal allowances
daily travellinng allowance
6 weeks annual leave
15 days sick leave
staff travel benefits
promotional opportunities
access to A380 and promotions
Min 18 days of a roster period

Significantly better that the overseas base conditions and a job in Australia ..its actually quite exciting to think that 2000 new australian full time jobs in the next couple of years.


Massive promotional opportunities and new aircraft with new destinations too

[stubby jumbo]

Hear, hear Pegasus.

Hey Scotty, haven't you got a bus to drive


- the Dee Why to Palm Beach School Special!

Go find somewhere else to hang out.

[funbags]

But that's just it. These guys aren't employed in NZ, Thailand or the UK. These people will be Australian based Mainline Long Haul Cabin Crew. It doesn't matter if the conditions are "quite good for a young person." They are different conditions to the current Australian staff.

I can just imagine the uproar if the Company offered existing guys 30% more work for same/less pay.

It is a B scale for Australian Mainline Long Haul CC, and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew, and that's why it will get up by a massive majority come vote time!

It may come back to bite you guys in the bum though in the future.

It's all about me, me ,me !!!!!! :ugh: (And don't worry, as Keg said Tech Crew are no different. Past history shows that!)

[lowerlobe]

Scotty Doo……This is the D & G section which if you look at the PPrune definition say’s…

“Dunnunda & Godzone
An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.”

Scotty I think you should be able to understand that pilots are not the only people that work in aviation….Next time you go to work look around …….

Funbags….The problem with trying to negotiate this EBA is that L/H were white anted by S/H.They offered to do our flying for far less.The S/H union even shares office space with the company that provides cheap casual crew.

Add to that the company setting up bases in AKL,BKK and LHR which with the exception of the LHR crew do the same flights with Australian based cabin Crew for far less money.So we already have two different crew operating on the same aircraft for different pay and conditions which in effect is an ‘A’ and a ‘B’ scale.

I noticed that the tech crew did not object or support Australian Cabin Crew when the company set up these off shore bases whose only purpose was to drive down the T & C’s of Australian based crew.The tech crew did not object when the company insisted that L/H cabin crew operate LAX/JFK/LAX when the tech crew did not.

The tech crew don’t even support each other.Whether that is the 400 crew with the 767 crew or airbus crew and I won’t even bother mentioning the J* crew relations with mainline.

I suspect then that your concern is not really for cabin crew of the future but for the ramifications to your award.

If the tech crew union had allowed the impulse pilots years ago to join then maybe you wouldn’t have the problem you face with J* pay and conditions threatening your own now which is in effect a ‘B’ scale.

However,if you are not happy with what the FAAA has negotiated then what would you have done considering S/H,MAM,the off shore bases etc.. taking your work for a lot less pay.If you could not talk the J* tech crew into rejecting their pay and conditions then how do you suggest cabin Crew could have done anything better.

Your right that the new 'B' scale is for crew in Australia and not for overseas bases but then again so is J* pay and conditions...which in a way you allowed...

[CSTGuy]

Oh the happy back slapping & cheers for the FAAA. What a joke. The "I'malrightJackSyndrome" is alive & well within longhaul CC.

What an atrocious sell-out for all future staff just so you guys can get 3%. Look at overall staffing numbers - GD is just paying you out as a dying breed. Whilst your numbers shrink, other numbers grow and with disharmony will come conflict from within.

And its no brilliant ground breaking piece of negotiation. Its identical to the SH TC EBA just voted up. All future SH Captains sold out on lower wages than all those before them.

But hey 3% is worth integrity. God knows AN CC were the highest paid in the industry - and they proudly took that to there grave. We will all say the same about LH CC in 10 years.

Go spend your 3% and buy a congratulatory drink for your "great FAAA". And as if the new B-scalers will waste there hard earned 5c on subs for the likes of the FAAA - particularly when its so plain to see what you all think of everyone else. GD must be smirking all the way to the another HUGE bonus.

[funbags]

"I suspect then that your concern is not really for cabin crew of the future but for the ramifications to your award."

No, not at all - I can't see any ramifications here.

Regards your other comments, as I stated in the last line of my previous post, we have done the same thing - S/O Singapore basings for new hires on inferior pay/conditions springs to mind! (agreed to by us in the last EBA)

[And5678]

and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew

Sorry funbags, you may be right in your statement, however it's six years too late. The FAAA out of hand rejected a proposal from the company to introduce a 'B' pay scale many EBA's ago. In the meantime SH undercut us and Jet* has appeared. We have seen access to our traditional flying reduced dramatically. This has had flow on effects to ongoing promotion, rostering and take home pay for many crew. We tried the moral high ground many years ago and were burnt accordingly.

I believe EBA8's outcomes are simply a recognition of the environment we find ourselves in and offer existing crew unprecedented job security. It also offers current MAM, Jet* and other crew the opportunity to access Australian based jobs with superior conditions.

I congratulate the FAAA on a great outcome and will be voting 'YES'.

:)

[RedTBar]

Funbags said and it wreaks of self-interest by FAAA/current crew and we have done the same thing - S/O Singapore basings for new hires on inferior pay/conditions springs to mind! (agreed to by us in the last EBA)

So what your saying is that the cabin crew have not acted differently than the pilots.So why did you make your post in the first place?

There are a few more things that the company got apart from cheap new crew.

Pay Protection: which sounds as though the company has fixed the problem of crew pulling a sickie in the last few days of the roster.To be honest but that was working against genuine crew who didn’t pull sickies so no great loss with that one.

New Regional slipping formula??????? So it looks like the company gets partially rid of the 1-1-2 formula.This could mean longer regional trips, Maybe??

Voting in delays has changed?????? That could be a worry.

I saw somewhere else that the company has got the OK to increase the overseas bases by nearly 50% and this wasn’t in the faaa newsletter under changes.Is this true ?

Is there anything else that is not in the newsletter and I found it a bit strange that it was done so soon after the election.What was the hurry guy’s?

[radiation junkie]

The FAAA made the right decision with this EBA. There is no catch or hidden agenda here. For Qantas, it's a long term cost saving strategy to ensure lower pay for future generations of LH FA's. It is going to take nearly 10 years before Qantas transfoms and their new fleet of "Super Planes" are delivered, so part of that is the time frame for this EBA8. Plus GD and management (all the way down to the lowest office fool with a clipboard and pen allocation) get a bonus payment. Even more for GD when he makes his triumphant exit down the track. But the bonus $$$ will keep flowing for him and his mate PG as their QF Crew hiring company provide crew for Qantas. GD will stick to Qantas like sh*t to a shovel, even when he is long gone as CEO.
Yes, the new B scale crew will slowly overtake the old crew in numbers and maybe the next EBA will not be as kind. The A scale crew will be "OK" while there are still Qantas 747 flying, presumably for the next 5 years and maybe beyond.
For me, yes, it is about me, a more dignified exit from Qantas after, so far, 28 years of loyal service. The opportunity to stay maybe a couple more years, perhaps as Part Time, is appreciated. I am sure VR will be offered on an ongoing basis to dwindle the numbers of "overpaid " even more. Moral high ground or GOD's are not a factor in EBA8.

[radiation junkie]

This EBA is the only way Qantas can crew the new A380 with a dedicated cheaper crew plus getting them to work on the older existing aircraft. With only 1 delivered next year and the rest over the next 8 to 10 years, a seperate 380 crew division would not be viable at this stage.

[twiggs]

Great result, thanks to all at the FAAA.
Something for everybody.
Looking forward to getting that regional flying back too.

[RedTBar]

Looks like both the company and the faaa are happy about this deal.

[cartexchange]

all in all things seem good and the FAAA must have been shocked when the company delivered this proposal.
there must be a catch somewhere ?
the 75% regional flying could be a problem as that will mean only approximately 9 hour sectors and without the slipping formula and no long range, basically a reduction in take home pay. can someone clarify this!
Also the huge recruitment in the new QCCA will mean that FAAA number will shrink, that could pose a problem as in 4 years time QF will have a ready labour force to simply replace us FAAA members.
I must congratulate that FAAA, so far they appear to have a good job with the negotiations.
in regards to midnight 63 some advice for you QF have a long memory and you have to be accountable for your actions, your midnight adventures in 2004 will never be pardoned, plus the attitude of your colleagues in AKL have seriously damaged all the reputation from people on that base.
if i was on the recruitment panel and saw that your former employment was AKL base, it would end up in the shredder, the attitude and rot that exists there is endemic, why transfer it to the new recruits!

[SOPS]

Is this just the start??? Cabin Crew now...Pilots to follow??? Are the alarm bells ringing??:confused::ugh:

[RedTBar]

SOPS,I'm not sure as your guys have a heck of a lot more bargaining power than we do.
As funbags said her union agreed to much the same thing for second officers in a singapore basing.You also had pilots agree to transfer to Jet Star for less money.
But this is without a doubt a clear,deliberate precedent.
The big question is did the faaa have any other choice?

[Pole Vaulter]

All sounds very good for the Long Haul people but please think of what is likely to happen in 5 years time. Also I guess the new recruits on the low pay cant have a say at the moment so their feelings will not be known. I guess for many that 5 years will be long enough and you will be ready to give it away anyhow but in the meantime think about working with the new recruits on half of your hourly rate of pay. If QF hires as the have in the past the new ones will be just out of school airheads and will make up the numbers on the flights but how much work will they do and at what level of professionalism. It will be like on Short Haul flights now. You get on board and everyone wants to know if you are contract C or B and despite the best efforts of some of the full timers there is always that feeeling of resentment if you are MAM. It sure wont be the greatest enviorment to be working in. I know it will be said that you had no option to accept it or be decimated but it is a pity a little more thought had not been put into what will happen to those that come after you and what will happen to all the MAM people who rely on their income to survive. With the return of 75% of regional flying to Long Haul and as many MAM rosters mainly consist of regional flights what will happen to them. I guess it is payback time for the Short Haul staff who did the dirty on you over pay rates on the regional flying but over 1000 MAM people had nothing to do with that and they are the most likely to get hurt as well. I guess overall Dixon has got his way by looking after the Long Haul permanent people for 5 years and setting up a low paid F/A workforce but dont be surprised if he has a little else waiting somewhere along the way. I guess he always seems to hold the ace card.

[twiggs]

New Regional slipping formula??????? So it looks like the company gets partially rid of the 1-1-2 formula.This could mean longer regional trips, Maybe??

The new slipping formula for regionals only applies to 6 day patterns or less with slip ports within 3 hours time zone change.

I saw somewhere else that the company has got the OK to increase the overseas bases by nearly 50% and this wasn’t in the faaa newsletter under changes.Is this true ?


The cap on overseas bases has been agreed by the company to be enforced, even though it is illegal under Howard workchoices.
The only difference is that it is now 25% of Aust base numbers rather than the fixed amount of 870.

[RedTBar]

From Twiggs,The new slipping formula for regionals only applies to 6 day patterns or less with slip ports within 3 hours time zone change.


it doesn't matter how many days they are what is the slipping formula?
Is it 1-1-1 or less for 6 days?

The cap on overseas bases has been agreed by the company to be enforced, even though it is illegal under Howard workchoices.
The only difference is that it is now 25% of Aust base numbers rather than the fixed amount of 870.
twiggs,the Libs lost so you can eventually forget about Howard and Nochoice.Thats why the company agreed to enforce it plus that it is now 25%.
The only difference is that there will be around 50% more overseas crew.

[twiggs]

Call the union TBar, I'm not going to respond to your ongoing negativity.

[RedTBar]

No negativity here twiggs I'm only asking for details.Like most of us I'll be going to the meetings but the company has never been known for it's generosity.So I keep thinking where's the catch because I've been stung by the company before.

There is only one other group that thinks that asking questions is being negative and they work in that big building with a bus stop out the front.

[indamiddle]

to funbags and others
l/h f/a's here are protecting themselves with this agreement. is it moral/shortsighted?
each person has to make that decision for themselves.
e.g. pegasus 747 is looking after his family including his children and would be happy for his children to work under 'B' scale pay/conditions.... it would be interesting to see if his kids agree.
as to shortsighted, 'A' scale have at least 8 years ( 2 eba's) before they, 'b' have the numbers to take over the union and shaft us back, just like we have now shafted back at s/h re transfers. it is now every 'a' scale hosties duty to talk as many 'b' hosties out of ever joining the union, this way we will maintain control over them so that when i leave in 15 years i will have had a full career at full pay

[cartexchange]

The FAAA have done what they can to protect the jobs of their members and keep our t&c, that is their main task and that is what they have delivered.

They should not be concerned about MAM, they are not paid up members of the INTL FAAA.
I have been extremely critical of the FAAA officials on this forum, however they have done what they are supposed to do and that is protect US!

well done MM ( still think you should fly every now and then)

In 5 years time there will be trouble with the new recruits, they will have to fight their own battles with QF maybe then generation "Y" will understand the efforts of the previous flight attendants.

Overall, it seems a good deal.

[twiggs]

Like most of us I'll be going to the meetings but the company has never been known for it's generosity.So I keep thinking where's the catch because I've been stung by the company before.

I think we all have thought "what's the catch", but just like you, MM and the team have been stung by the company before.
That is why we have faith in the current FAAA that they will ensure that as far as possible, there can be very little scope in the agreement for double meaning.

[lowerlobe]

Good on you twiggsy.....

That sounded just like one of those many political adverts we saw during the campaign....

Spoken by Twiggsy,authorised by Eden for the union, Sydney....:E:E:E

I noticed though that like most politicians and company spin doctors that you didn't answer any questions with your post.....

I didn't realise that the slipping formula had changed.Unless your embarrassed Twiggsy why don't you answer the question?

Cartexchange,I agree with you in that the union was caught between a rock and a hard place.

In real terms was there any other choice?

Unfortunately,because the negotiations were held behind closed doors we will never know....You just have to have trust ......

On another note is it true that the company has rejected the AIPA claim in regards to dispensation for the tech crew to operate AKL/LAX/AKL on the airbus?

[DEFCON4]

Well done MM and Co....an excellent result
As usual those who were critical of MM and his negotiation team are still
critical.
The "Usual Suspects" are still too lazy to call the FAAA and ask salient questions.
They would rather post post inane innuendo and circumspect crap.
It is small wonder that many outside(and inside) the aviation industry see CC as twits.
There will be no doubt the usual rubbish,spell checking and moronic repartee to follow from the "usual suspects"

[Bad Hat Harry]

I have watched the QF CC forums for years and have always been amazed at how we attack each other.
Equally amazing is how badly we have been represented over the years:the McGraws,Smiths and Broomes.
Fortunately we have people like Mijatov and Reed,who because of their passion and intellect have produced an EBA that we can all be happy with.
Finally we have excellent,pragmatic representation.
Thank You Michael ,Steven and your negotiation team....Well Done!

[RedTBar]

There will be no doubt the usual rubbish,spell checking and moronic repartee to follow from the "usual suspects"
There's no need to that harsh on yourself there defcon4 and it's good to see you back.
Apart from a few pilots and maybe s/h I don't think there is anyone who would argue that it is a great result considering what the company and Dixon has said about us.
I think you are being a bit hard on some here.But anyone working for the company for more than 12 months would know how cynical we are of the company.This is like Satan giving us a get out of jail card if you know what I mean.
and defcon4 this post was done without any help from a spell checker too.

Thank You Michael ,Steven and your negotiation team....Well Done!

[And5678]

I think most LH crew are fairly positive about EBA8's outcomes although with some minor concerns. That is displayed by the previous posts in this forum.

As EBA8 appears to have a significant impact on SH regional flying, what is the general feeling amongst SH crew to the proposed agreement?

[call button]

I have been expecting the SH union to put out some sort of newsletter, but so far nothing! Obviously this new LH EBA will see LH take a huge chunk of our flying.

Our next EBA negotiations are due to start in January. Who knows what will happen.

MAM casuals at SH are very well paid. If they take up the new LH 'B Scale' positions, they will get a permanent full-time job, but will take a huge salary reduction!!!

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "Obviously this new LH EBA will see LH take a huge chunk of our flying."

----------------

!!!!?????!!!!!?????

[cartexchange]

I know speedbirdhouse, I am speechless at that comment as well.
:ugh:

[DEFCON4]

Domestics traditional flying is exactly that ...domestic.
The flying that Call Button alludes to is traditionally LongHaul....that is anything international.
Through an act of sheer bastardry a large chunk of LH traditional flying was stolen by the domestics.
The status quo is now being returned.
Quite frankly most LH CC could care less about the domestic reduction in flying.The domestic component of the QF group should be rebadged Jet Star and paid accordingly.

[left 4 primary]

Call Button,
You have got to be kidding!!!!
LH taking a huge chunk out of our flying.
We use to have all regional flying until the shorthaul union stabbed us in the back. We are only taking back what is rightfully ours.
Get real call button.

[RedTBar]

That makes me think of something else.The press release said that all new cabin crew will be hired by this new company.
Does that mean S/H as well and the regionals too.
Then what happens to mam?
Is maurrie out of favor?
has Darth seen that MA makes a load of money from supplying casuals and now he wants to do it?

[left 4 primary]

I'm just taking an educated guess, but the reduction of shorthaul regional flying would leave a surplus of MAM casuals, who would get less call outs.
The only viable way they could remain flying would be applying to LH.
The advantages to QF would be minimal training, plus they would have a work history available . they know who they would want to keep.
The advantages to MAM is they would be now full time employees, with annual leave and other entitlements that they wouldn't have had, and if they are ambitious enough, they could be promoted after 4 years.
Really, I reckon they will be better off.
Question is, what will happen to any S/H who are waiting on the tranfer list? Will they have to work under these new conditions?

[call button]

'Our Flying'

Yes SH has been doing regional flying for a few years. Further back than that is ancient history. And yes currently HKG NRT SIN PEK MNL PVG BOM CGK ect are all ports that we currently fly to.

And5678 asked for SH crew thoughts, so I posted my thoughts.

[regionalguy]

QUOTE by RedTBar " That makes me think of something else.The press release said that all new cabin crew will be hired by this new company.
Does that mean S/H as well and the regionals too."

As far as the QFLink regionals are concerned being paid jetstar rates of pay like the long haul B scale would be a pay increase, not by that much but a pay increase.

[speedbirdhouse]

Mmmmmmm.

For 17 or so of the 20 years I've been with QF "the domestics" were just that.

Domestic flight attendants.

Welcome back to the future.................

[surfside6]

Enjoy those destinations you quoted while you can ....they are about to be returned to their rightfull owners......LH CC.
The Libs get routed
Howard loses his seat
We get our flying back.......it doesnt get any better than this

[left 4 primary]

I'm with you there Speedbirdhouse,
The new EBA is just balancing out what should have been in the first place. The Pendulum is just swinging back to where it should be. Hopefully with the new Rudd government, the IR laws will be "ancient history " as well.

[chimbu warrior]

Folks,

I don't really think this new EBA is all that positive. It's great that they have announced AUS jobs to be protected but with the new subsidiary company I think it will cause detriment to the current Long Haulers. Just look at what happened in Shorthaul with MAM causals being employed- they mysteriously get blocked with some very good trips(The ones that involve band payments) and a Full timer with 20 years exp can't even get some of those high hour ( band payment) trips. Cos its cheaper for a MAM casual to work the weekends!

[surfside6]

Domestic FAs were done over not by the company but by their union president,secretary and industrial officer.
The fact is MM SR and the industrial team are all on the same page.
Domestics got screwed..... with no KY....live with it...you got what you deserve!!

[Guardian1]

When i initiated this thread 3 months ago i expected that there would be substantial activity, and i see my view has been vindicated.:)

Guys i'll make several comments;-

1) The FAAA always knew what it's major objectives were

2) This result is not due to any "magic" or goodwill from Qantas. It is completely due to hard work and competence. It is also due to the fact that the FAAA International leadership is taken very seriously by QF.

3) For anyone who thinks this is because Kevin Rudd won, think again.... this agreement was secured before the election result. More about this aspect will be discussed at the FAAA meetings.

4) This is the best result in the FAAA's history....... it is even more remarkable in light of the obstacles confronting the negotiating team

5) The extent of reversal of fortune for Long Haul cabin crew cannot be overstated. Just look at the massive growth and promotion that is about to occur.

6) The extent of the achievement of this EBA will only become apparent as its implications begin to sink in with our crew.


Finally, MM and his negotiating team can hold their heads high...... they secured International Flying, whilst resisting any temptation to grab domestic flying. Believe me..... they could have grabbed that too.

Those short haul crew asking.... "what happens to existing S/H crew who might at some time in the future , transfer to L/H....." the answer is...you will come over the nearest existing salary point in L/H.

Unlike S/H officials who didn't bother to think about L/H crew when it came to their revised band payments emanating from their EBA6..... MM SR and LL have made sure that existing S/H crew will not go onto the lower or "B" scale rate of pay.

I hope the above points help people with their discussions in here.

I also hope that most in here realise that when i post in here..it is always totally accurate :)

Enjoy the discourse in here guys, but make sure you all attend the FAAA meetings which will be announced tomorow. Only then will you have full, accurate and reliable information.

[surfside6]

The above post from Guardian emphasizes the fundamental differences between the two divisions...honesty,integrity and credibility.LH have these qualities in spades....domestics think those three words are sanskrit.

[left 4 primary]

To Guardian1,
I appreciate all the hard work that the FAAA has put in, the efforts of the the negotiation team should be praised.
But to say Kevin Rudd had nothing to do with it and that EBA8 was already a done deal before the election is an insult to the Labor party.
I rememeber attending the FAAA meeting in LA, where MM & SR said that they had taken the new IR laws to an independant IR lawyer and he said that if Howard got back in we were screwed, and how the FAAA were saying vote out the IR laws, vote out the Liberals.
Well we did just that. QF management are cunning bastards, they could see the writing on the wall. As much as I admire MM, SR and the team that negotiated a very difficult EBA8, please, don't dismiss what a new government has helped in achieving this historic outcome.

[whatever6719]

Hey there all
Im just another one of those long time readers that suddenly got the urge to register to contribute something to this discussion.
Firstly, I would really like to congratulate all the L/H CC on their EBA.
It really must be a relief to have the company suddenly show some semblance of respect to a workforce that has had its morale decimated in recent times. You guys deserve a break and im glad you got it.
I am a S/H FA and i can appreciate the need of some of you to vent. It must have been totally infuriating seeing your traditional flying being redistributed.
All i want to say is that the typical rank and file S/H FA would not have been complicit in that arrangement. We were all following (rightly or wrongly) our unions directive. Remember we had a huge intake of new crew about the same time as THAT EBA got voted up which caused alot of consternation amongst LH CC. Basically, you guys are getting back what was rightfully yours ...but just remember we are all in the same boat. Things change overnight in this game .... we need to stick together with a common goal of being a strong united work force. I always show my LH CC colleagues the respect they deserve on my flights but im starting to see alot of attitude seeping through. Guys, we need to really stop this cr@p.
We need to get along!!
Anyway, ive got that off my chest, so well done to the LH FAAA and I hope this strategy works out well for ALL the different crew we have working amongst us.
Cheers

[speedbirdhouse]

Excellent dummy spit Galleyhag. I must say one of the best I've heard in a long, long time.

Congratulations. :D:D:D

[browni 44]

I personally will be happy if you guys get all of your 'traditional flying' back. I'm employed as a domestic F/A and would love to be guaranteed domestic only flying.

[seatedandsecured]

I am really dissapointed in some posts here regarding s/h crew..................as a FA of over 25 years I have never meet a s/h or l/h crew member who has never been polite or rude to a fellow crew member but some of the comments here i find childish and selfish.
It really doesnt matter in the end who gets what flying............we are all the same and we should all look out for one another and not get caught in petty thoughts about who gets what.
When paxing on a flight whether s/h or l/h crewing it I have always found the crew to be great and look after both me and my family..............dont put either division down they are both filled with great people.

[Pegasus747]

galley Hag

Sadly you are mistaken, without this EBA there is no future generation of Long Haul flight attendants. All the jobs were being made gradually redundant and sent overseas or made casual by the short haul divsion.

This is the start of fight back....full time jobs in long haul... a decent wage and market conditions about the same hours worked by Short haul..maybe a little less perhaps but a base to grow from.

This cannot be achieved if the jobs arent here in Australia

[Keg]

Rather than this being the start of the 'fightback', what if it's actually QF getting a stalemate in the penultimate battle but setting themselves up very nicely to win the war. Someone much smarter than me thought up the following scenario for what may occur in 3-5 years time.

Sounds like they’ve sold their souls for CPI, a Superannuation sweetener & a before tax “bonus” of 3000 pieces of silver! They’ll have no one to blame but themselves when, a few years down track, the following scenario has unfolded:

The ratio of the more fortunate “old guard” to the newer less fortunate has changed. The bitterness and divisiveness of a significant B Scale has festered away for a few years now. The initial novelty of being a new flight attendant has truly worn off.

They feel that they are overworked and underpaid – at least compared to those other more fortunate, truly understanding, empathetic original FAs. A new EBA is up for negotiation. The Company offers the lower pay scale plus enough of a sweetener to get the majority (now the less fortunate) to vote yes.

Ipso facto, the EBA gets up and all FA’s are now on J* style conditions. What a magnificent coup! One has to appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of this medium term play.

That light at the end of the tunnel could very likely be an oncoming train! :eek:

[whatever6719]

What Keg mentioned above seems possible but someone on this forum may know exactly but doesnt British Airways have a B scale and have had one for quite some time??
Maybe we should see how they are going before we start predicting a doomsday scenario!! Maybe crew are working side by side harmoniously. (one can live in hope!!)

[Pegasus747]

B Scales are a fact of life in the airline industry...in british airways in the american airlines cathay pacific and in pilots areas around the world.

Just as superannuation schemes were sealed off and new schemes for new entrants were offered so too do some pay and condition issues.

This is crew accepting that the conditions that they get are welll deserved but unsustainable for growth. No long haul crew have been hired for years. the only growth has been in cabin crew areas with productivity around the level of the new entrant rate.

If Qantas have trouble filling the positions i would be very surprised the conndtions are superior to Jetstar INternational (significantly) wait till the full details are revealed.

[GalleyHag]

I deleted my raving lack of sleep post, I apologise to anyone that had the misfortune of reading that crap.

[speedbirdhouse]

Apology accepted from one fat old poof who can hardly do up his uniform and just sits on his fat arse doing nothing all day............:ok: