Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[Guardian1]

The EBA result had nothing to do with the election result. If Howard had won the result was still going to be the same.

Please attend a forthcoming meeting and you will understand what i mean.

At those FAAA meeting that you refer to.... MM said at each of those meetings that the challenge facing L/H was not going to be different, irrespective of who would win the election.

The excellent EBA result is due to the pragmatic decisions of MM and his team.... it was all about making the necessary changes to make L/H more cost effective.

Without those adjustments..... there would be no EBA to announce. Qantas would have then have transferred all growth to the newly established Qantas Cabin Crew Australia (QCCA) and a million Kevin Rudd's would not have saved us.

Don't misunderstand what i am saying L4Primary, as i too was ecstatic over the Labor victory. The labor victory does not mean that Kevin Rudd will force Qantas to use existing L/H crew....... the EBA8 outcome is soley related to the fact that new conditions and rates of pay for new starters, meant that Qantas could now profitably deploy massive new work to L/H AND ALSO SUBSIDISE you and me.

The FAAA made that clear to almost a 1000 crew at its meetings in September.

[Guardian1]

An interesting scenario Keg..... but that's all it is a scenario...in other words speculation and crystal ball gazing.

Whilst, philosophically i probably agree with your sentiment; the problem is that the Int FAAA does not have the luxury of entertaining your sentiment.

The FAAA had to deal with reality. Reality looks like this...... 1500 L/H crew made redundant since 2001.... why???? because we are the most expensive and because others, like S/H FAAA Officials commenced a spiral downwards , leading a wage freeze in 2002 and culminating with a blatant "grab" for international work in 2003 by going out of their way to secure International work via their "inferior" conditions vis-a-vis L/H.

A stupid and masochistic approach would have been for L/H FAAA , to ignore the fact that we were about to be made redundant due to "others" being more aligned to market conditions. Whist your suggestion of collective suicide for L/H crew might appeal to you Keg( it is a safe assumption you are a S/H FAAA Official) it would not be an attractive option for 3000 L/H crew and their partners and kids.

The other reality you conveniently overlook Keg is this, not ONE extra permanent good quality job was going to be created in L/H under our current T&C's. The result of the in-principle EBA8 means 2000 Aussie full time jobs will be created and these jobs will be significantly better quality jobs than Jetstar Int, MAM casual or indeed almost full time S/H jobs.

Bear in mind a new person employed in L/H under the proposed new scale can also be promoted to a CSM position under the new scale that will pay $70,000 pa...significantly more than a S/H CSM for example.

Before you next hypothesise with further scenarios Keg, at least build a logical rather than a misleading argument.

[Keg]

ROFLMAO. I've been accused of many things in the past but a Flight Attendant (and a FAAA union rep as well) is certainly a first. :eek: Check the profile Guardian and you'll find that my interests are a little more conservative than the average F/A- most of whom I have a great deal of respect for. Thanks for proving the old adage about assumptions though.....or at least the part where it makes an ass out of 'u'. :E

It's always an interesting character insight when the response to what is a quite possible medium to long term view by QF is to personally attack the person who put the scenario forward. I should probably also add that you are assuming facts about my motivation and attitude that are clearly not in evidence:

Whist your suggestion of collective suicide for L/H crew might appeal to you Keg....

The other reality you conveniently overlook Keg is this....

Before you next hypothesise with further scenarios Keg, at least build a logical rather than a misleading argument.

I stated that I didn't think up the scenario and that it came from someone else. I stated that QF may have 'given up' this battle in order to win the war. I suggested that the 'great EBA' that others are raving about could well be an oncoming train. Sticking your head in the sand and dismissing the message by flaming the poster may make you feel warm and fuzzy but it won't change the result if that beautiful light of a sign on bonus, etc, etc actually is an oncoming train.

So well done to the FAAA for getting such a great result for their current members. Enjoy it whilst it lasts.

[peanut pusher]

Well done FAAA L/H, you've proven your smart and silenced the knockers with a well thought out campaign.

80 CSM's required??? do you think we have 80 of the high standard required in our ranks.

[Guardian1]

Keg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Firstly my apologies.... i will accept your assertion that you are not a flight attendant.... your profile after all does say a first officer and of course all profiles on here are always truthful.
Secondly, if you are a first officer, it explains the silly propositions you espouse whether they be your original thought or whether they be begged, stolen or borrowed.
Thirdly, a unions role is to firstly protect those it represents then it can entertain the luxury of ethereal and philosophical discussions.
Finally, stick to what you know, don't worry about oncoming trains but rather concentrate on that flightdeck.:)

[Keg]

Guardian, you're obviously not a wide reader on PPRUNE otherwise you would not only know that my profile is spot on but you'd probably have my name and background also. (Don't start searching now....it's too late!)

You can label them 'silly propositions' all you like but I see nothing in your comments that discuss whether or not the scenario I borrowed may be QF's 'end game'.

I agree entirely about the role of a union. I guess the difference between you and I is that my view is slightly longer term. I don't look at the next 3-5 years as to what only I can get out of a deal but the next 15-20 and what it does for all of us. It's why I and 42% of my colleagues voted 'no' to a Singapore base for future S/Os. Besides, if I say that those who follow me have no value, how can I expect them to value me in the future when I'm in the minority?

Finally, you assume falsely that I 'worry' about your oncoming train. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can guarantee that as ever, my concentration remains firmly on the flight deck and that sight of the collective FAAA heads in the sand with a rapidly approaching light at the end of a tunnel is nothing more than an interesting side show.
Denial.....not just a river in Egypt.....it's a fricking ocean (with apologies to Ellen Pompeo and Meredith Grety).

[funbags]

Hey guys,

Instead of being angry and this whole LH vs SH thing. Maybe you should direct your anger towards those people who are non FAAA members, pay no subs and yet will receive all the benefits of this EBA (both in improved pay and conditions). They to me are the real enemy.

These people just sit back, watch, are not out of pocket and yet reap all the same benefits as a fully paid up FAAA member. I flew with a young girl recently (full time LH Syd based), who was bragging that she paid nothing and yet gained everything that the Union worked hard for. :mad:

[left 4 primary]

To Peanut pusher,
The high quality required??? I thought the prerequisite was to work on the BOS desk and be a mate of Fat Boy Slim.
It's probably a good time to invest in a shoe factory, Florsheim? Doc Marten? or maybe invest in the company that makes spare parts for the trash compactor.
Actually, I'd be more suprised if you could find a serviceable trash compactor on one of our planes. Damn, my evil plan has already been foiled :}

[PattyStacker]

Peanut Pusher can I ask a question..and to any one else out there.

I have read time and time again about CSS and CSM quality. What makes someone at QF, have the right skills and attributes to become a CSM, and to have the crew work with them to reach a common end goal. What do you crew want. I know the brown nosers get the gig in 50% of the cases (but that is big business for you)

The reason I ask is that I have 11 years flying of which I spent 3 as a Purser for a UK company (Full Service), and now that 80 new CSM are required I am just wondering if you would give the same respect to a new CSM member with say 4 years experience of would you not feel confident at all flying with them based on their decisions...

Just curious (no I am not a spy, I don't work for QF, I am not a Union rep)

[surfside6]

Keg,
Guardian 1 has been a great crew advocate for years.This EBA is and can be an emotional issue....with time his posts should be seen as the responses of a passionate person and not an angry ostrich.
QF management are Macchiavellian if nothing else.The scenario you quote is plausible.Around 5 or 600 people will most likely leave over the next 5 years.For those and many others this EBA represents a good deal.

[Guardian1]

Thanks for your description of me :)

You are right , i am passionate and hopefully not an ostrich...to begin with i never bury my head in the sand lol

It almost appears you are making an educated guess as to my identity surfside..... as i am about yours.:)

But remember on these anonymous forums it can be very difficult, most of the time to really identify who a person is.

What annoys me at times is the deliberate misrepresentation that occurs at times in here, whilst i obviously realise people can hold genuinely held different views.

Surfside, your contribution though has been consistently thoughtful and logical.

Keg i hope i didn't unsettle you too much..... i'm sure i didn't.:)

[whatever6719]

Just a question regarding this EBA and Work(No)Choices.
As it wont be until at least mid year when the new Government take control of the Senate and start to dismantle the revolting workplace laws, what does it mean for this EBA and indeed even the upcoming SH EBA if it is ratified before Work Choices is abolished? There will be obviously be a long process to go through for new work place laws to introduced so will the current Work Choice rules apply for the life of this EBA??
Just interested to know any possible repurcussions down the track in light of this.

[Southside747]

On face value this seems like a great deal. However, with the record of the company towards us, I can only feel a great sense of unease as to what the hidden agenda may be. You cannot trust QF as far as you could kick them. So why are they so happy about this deal when it looks as though they have caved in to us?


My personal concerns;

As to the foreign bases, the cap of 25% will appear to indicate a massive increase in the numbers of foreign workers. If they increase the AKL base dramatically, is it possible this base will undertake a larger portion of the States flying leaving us with more regionals, ie. less pay, less overtime?

As for the 380, it is implied in one of the articles I read in the paper that Qantas has stated it will be exclusively crewed by members of the new Cabin Crew Company. Is it possible this will exclude us current longhaulers? What will this mean for long range flying in 3 years from now?

I also have some serious reservations along the lines of others here that the divide and conquer strategy is alive and well and this will possibly be the final hurrah for us longhaul crew. The company is indicating it will massively increase longhaul numbers as quick as possible, and within 5 years the B scale crew will outnumber the A scale crew most probably. When this happens all I can see is payback big time. It is hardly likely that those who do the same job for more hours/less pay will be willing to fight to protect us. Rather, they will all see us as people who have sold them out to protect ourselves, so they will follow the lead and do the same to us in return - protect themselves at our expense.

I believe that the election has really changed nothing. The belief among many that QF are scared of us and a Labor government is misleading. The chances of us all going on strike are remote, and with the way the current workforce is structured it is hardly likely we could bring the airline to a halt. Sure we could disrupt it, but somehow I think QF would love to see this happen to further alienate ourselves, and cause more division among crew.

So I am left feeling like this is a great deal, but deep down there is a lot of concern that surely there are some hidden agendas, and a few aces up the sleeve of the company. There is a possibility that we could be about to get some very nasty surprises in the way the detail is interpreted.

The fact that we are responsible for a B scale is also something that weighs heavily on my mind. Can we prevent it? Perhaps not. However, it will eventually result in the death of conditions as we know it. How long that takes I don't know. But it will eventually.

So while I think the union has done well, the jury will not have all the evidence to find the parties guilty or innocent until anther 1 or 2 years down the track.

[Pegasus747]

Southside,

I very well thought out and considered commentary. One that i think is balanced and without unneccessary emotion.

At the FAAA meetings these are obviously matters that will be raised by F/A's and discussed by the negotiating team.

I would be extremely surprised if these were not all considered by the Team and dealt with in the EBA and accompanying documentation.

All of your assumptions are logical and more than likely have been dealt with in the structure , content and intents clauses in the EBA.

Go to the many meetings and dont leave until all of your apprehensions have been comprehensively been answered and dealt with

Thanks for a thoughtful and intelligent commentary

[indamiddle]

to whatever,
work choices applies to awa's whereas we have an eba.
keg, i see the same problems down the track as u, maybe a little different in the timeframe. with about 15 years left before super becomes available i believe my concerns are legitimate let alone those with 20+years to go... still lots of those still flying
to peanut pusher
leave our knockers alone

[capt.cynical]

Indamiddle.

It appears you were in the same English class as "Giggs" however I will concede you may have been the Dux.:ugh:

[speedbirdhouse]

Peanutpusher,

Left4primary is right.

Since when has "ability" been a prerequisite for the job?

A pathological willingness to ingratiate oneself to the present management regime is undeniably all that that will be required.

You allude to, "Operational ability"?

Don't forget. This lot of clowns ONLY have the ability to promote images of themselves................:ugh:

[prunezeuss]

The EBA allows for BFA with four years flying experience to be promoted to the CSS position and then, if positions be come available,to be promoted to CSM.The time frame could be as little as 12 months.
There are currently around 200 CSS' who are Australian based.With 80 positions becoming available they would have a 50/50 chance of promotion.
Factor in the BFAs and that is reduced.
So slog your guts out in Y/C,gather all the experience..apply for a promotion and get beaten out by someone who has no experience of working in Y/C.
Absolutely Brilliant....The promotional process will not be transparent.You will be chosen ...not promoted

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote- "So slog your guts out in Y/C,gather all the experience..apply for a promotion and get beaten out by someone who has no experience of working in Y/C."

--------------

Exactly what has happened during the last rounds of CSS promotion given that the VAST proportion of those promoted came from the BFA ranks.

Gee, they must miss the luxury of sitting on their arses at L4/R4 doing nothing while the troops in Y/C are run off their feet.............:E

[Eden99]

29 November 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
EBA MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS
I announce the following details of Members’ Meetings to discuss the recently announced In-Principle EBA8 Agreement.
SYDNEY
3, 4, 5, 6, 7 December Holiday Inn – Cnr Bourke & O’Riordan St Mascot (10 am -Lawrence Hargraves Room).
12, 13,14,20,21 December – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
2, 3, 4,10,11, January – FAAA Office 20 Ewan St Mascot – 10 am.
BRISBANE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
17, 18, 19 December - 10.30 am
9 January – 10.30 am
MELBOURNE (VENUE TO BE ANNOUNCED SHORTLY).
10, 11 December – 10.30 am
7, 8 January – 10.30am
The FAAA urges all members to attend a meeting in order that you are fully informed about the significant and important features of the proposed EBA before a vote occurs as required by Law. Most importantly this will also be your opportunity to ask questions about the Agreement.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division.

[mrpaxing]

what are the proposed new slipping formulas in regional flying
voting under multi sector has been removed? please explain in detail. what are the maximum hours in case of delays?
are there any restirctions on current lh cabin crew numbers on the A380 or other aircraft?
why is it that only division 6 gets a super increase? is it because MM joined it early on?
what are the new conditions for qf cabin crew?
why would you agree to give BFA the chance to promote without ever going to work in Y/c? rationality behind?
i am sure there will be many more questions. lets start the ball rolling

[gigs]

TO capt cynical not playing golf,,,,, and i said it was my last post on this thread, well miss cynic or what ever you call yourself dear! do not assume i am in v middle im only gigs with one g big ex pilot fella or what ever you are? why is this nonsense your pass time? even try a long walk its good for you! cheers gigs.

[funbags]

Hey guys,

Instead of being angry and this whole LH vs SH thing. Maybe you should direct your anger towards those people who are non FAAA members, pay no subs and yet will receive all the benefits of this EBA (both in improved pay and conditions). They to me are the real enemy.

These people just sit back, watch, are not out of pocket and yet reap all the same benefits as a fully paid up FAAA member. I flew with a young girl recently (full time LH Syd based), who was bragging that she paid nothing and yet gained everything that the Union worked hard for. :mad:

[cartexchange]

fun bags, you are correct! those people are leeches or parasites but there is nothing that can be done about them! there is no way of identifying them! so we can do nothing about them! they have no morals!
Gigs you really are an embarrassment, have you ever thought of re-sitting your primary school years at TAFE, if possible:}
we also have great "English as a second language" courses available,maybe you should enrol.
I don't know what your main language is but your posts are illegible!
Speed bird you're correct in what you say, but I think you mean sit at R2 and L2 that is the "read my novel" position whilst Y/C slog it out!

[Pegasus747]

In relation to the "non" members...you would be surprised at the identity of some of these people including some of the "old guard" of the union including three past presidents and some of the last officials and their supporters.

I am aware that hypocritically some of these people are running a muck campaign now about the EBA outcome and suggesting that they will use it as a platform for future FAAA elections.

I am sure that the members cant wait to show them that that parasitical behaviour that almost borders on obscenity will be appropriately rewarded if they are identified and stick their heads up again

[gigs]

not into golf either carttyy girl well good on yah! and thanx for your support,, you have mine though as i am an faaa member ..... sorry last post on this thread for me so car tie and capt. cardy go for it and spend all that energy on typing nonsense to entertain. cheers gigs

[Flugbegleiter]

Gigs, what are you saying? I do not understand your posts. Quick basic English lesson:
1. A new sentence begins with a capital letter.
2. A sentence ends with a full stop.
3. Commas can be used to separate clauses and to make your message clearer.
4. Spelling checkers can help correct spelling mistakes and typos.
Geeez! Could people please take more care with their posts!
:ugh:

[gigs]

then stay flying girl if indeed you do and if you dont do not go to try to be a primary school teacher as you would have no hope in marking my work girl lee.

[capt.cynical]

:)Lobey, bring out the fire hose please,I DON't want another "last post":E

[red or white]

Hola,

So how much can a new FA working on A380/b787 expect to earn as base salary and how many hours will he/she be expected to work with how much crew rest????Anybody know?Will they pay loadings???

Thanx

[Pegasus747]

I think it would make more sense if we considered that rather than expressing new entrants as a B scale that we looked at ourselves as having been quarantined or red circled except that we get ongoing pay rises.

Qantas will not employ new crew in Australia on existing conditions. This has been demonstrated by new recruitment except for MAM casuals, and overseas based recruitment for a number of years.

If crew vote to accept the protections for existing crew, then Qantas will embark on a massive growth program for long haul with about 2000 full time jobs being created on what will be viewed and quality airline jobs on salaries significantly higher than Jetstar International with significantly improved other benefits.

Qantas will be swamped with applications and I envisage that many of those crew in New Zealand and those that are casual employees looking for full time job will be given some sort of preference.

In return for Long Haul crew agreeing to these changes there will be unprecedented opportunities for promotions, new aircraft etc.

The 787 and all new aircraft will be flown by long haul crew when flown internationally. New crew will sit underneath us in our bid system and will be allocated work after us instead of having it withdrawn first as happens now with the overseas based crew.

For the A380, crew who choose to fly that aircraft will only fly the A380 and not other aircraft and long haul crew can choose to go to A380 fleet on the new work rules there, but will salary protection.

FAAA has just announced over 20 meetings . It would be sensible for crew to attend and get a more complete understanding of the protections and growth that the proposed EBA offers.

[lowerlobe]

capt.cynical......

Don't look at me as this is all Shane Warnes fault.He has turned texting into a religion to every woman under the age of 300!

Gigs....I have seen one or two of your posts that show you can use reasonable English and not Textlish....If you did then your posts would be more credible.Give it a go.....

Pegasus ..just a thought or two and since I can't ring the bunker office I thought I'd ask you some questions.

First,If the A380 is going to have a dedicated crew what will be the selection process for those existing crew who might want to fly on it?

Secondly,If any existing crew apply and are red circled pay wise.Will they be paid for the extra hours if as you say they will have to work the new work rules?

Third,What is the new regional slipping formula?

[Pegasus747]

Exiting Long Haul crew that want to go to the A380 Division will be able to do so during start up (approx 2 years /4 A/c) then if they want to stay they can or return to our world.

The A380 work rules will essentially model the london rules. except overtime will be payable after 12 hours in a duty like us and additional hours will be paid over 240. crew will average about 220 hours a roster in A380 and may be less depending on schedule etc.. london crew currently work about 210.

Crew going over will have salary maintenance and the top up amounts will be outlined in the new EBA for for all ranks i think it looks pretty ok. Plus they will get our meal allowance formula and cash allowances like us.

initially the company would like 100% CSM and CSS for A380 to come from our world and if they cant get them to transfer over they will offer promotions in A380 to existing Long Haul crew b4 looking elsewhere.

At start up they want about 20% of the flight attendant category to come from the existing crew and then recruit new hires on the new rates of pay to offset the addtional cost of the salary protected long haul crew.

After 2 years crew that go over to A380 will be able to come back or choose to stay in A380. Ongoing post start up 20% of current long haul crew will be able to go to A380 on Salary protected conditions. also if they are promoted in A380 they continue to get the salary protections based on current long Haul conditions.

essentially any current long haul crew member that either goes to A380 and gets promoted, or get promoted directly from our world to A380 in a promoted position will get salary maintenance arrangements.

if the number of crew that want to go over is greater than the numbers required then a merit selection process will take place.

In respect to the regional slipping formula it will only apply to patterns of 6 days or less bounded by a 3 hour time change of sydney. hawaii and India are out. Any port outside of the three hour rule will activate the standard 1;1;2 which is a minimum planned 70 hours rest over 3 slips effectively. Any pattern planned in excess of 6 days will also attract the 1.1.2 formula.

the new regional formual of planned rest must have a MINUMUM of 50 hours rest in any three slips standing alone. Currently short haul do it wil 36 hours standing alone.

Of course the minimum rest provsions have not changed and you which are night hours plus planned flight - Min 12 max 20 rule applies. Most Asian patterns are straight up, slip and then back, but there will be some that are not and to those the new regional formula will apply.

the New formula was essential in the negotiations in order to get the Regional Flying Back or it would have stayed where it currently resides

Hope this answers the questions and obviously crew should attend one of the 20 or so meetings being run by the FAAA or company meetings to get further intricate detail

[OCCR]

Midnight quotes

Ah that's nice and cosy. You scratch mine and I will scratch yours and f@#$ the rest of them

how dare you even try and make such an accusation, you of all people who scurried in the midnight hours in 2004 along with all the other str1kebre@kers, then went and worked in AKL to further undermine our conditions, of all the things I have seen on here your posts really offends the whole core of our industry, I say again how dare you try and pass any moral judgment on anyone in here.
The FAAA have done what they can to protect our jobs and secure our future, that is their function and they have performed well.
We have long memories midnight!
:=:\:*

[chemical alli]

typical f/a attitude , im right jack, once again screw the newbies and look after the egos.red circle my ass .legacy circle more like

[RedTBar]

chemical alli,if you want to talk about attitude how about talking about the vote to let second officers to be based in singapore for a lot less than Australian second officers.
if that is not an I'm allright jack look after yourself then i don't know what is.
How about the previous 400 guys on the union giving the nod to a pub in brisbane that they would never stay at and only the 767 drivers would.
it's allright for you guys but you have a lot more to argue with than we do.

it annoys me too but then what else could we do.Short haul sold us out and we have to put up with bases like bkk and akl who work for a lot less than us.
This is really giving us a chance to fight another day but if we kept going what then.

[left 4 primary]

I agree 100% with you OCCR.
Midnight, you are really a piece of work, you undermined our conditions by training up as a st1kebre@ker and now you seem to be a little upset that you may not be able to come back to Oz under our old award.
There's nothing stopping you from coming back as a Mam, I believe Lisa R did it, I wouldn't be suprised if you did a little moonlighting with her with as you do call yourself Midnight .
It is not an AWA, but collective bargaining, you don't seem to grasp the fundamentals of industrial relations policies.
And to chemical alli, " screw the newbies", for your information there have been no Australian based newbies for several years, just a constant expansion of overseas bases. With junior crew getting low lines and ordinary rosters. At least now there is some hope that we will see full time Australia jobs established.
Our esteemed SH colleagues set the standard several years ago , when they effectively sold out to Qantas, no band payments became the norm for new SH crew and Mam casuals took off. anyone who transferred from LH to SH got shafted.
This appears to be one of the only avenues available to us to address the imbalance that has occurred over the years.
At least now there will be newbies

[DEFCON4]

The A380 will most likely fly to LAX,JNB,LHR and possibly FRA.The other destinations will be serviced by 744s,the Airbus A330 and eventually the 787.
So...we all have to make a decision...but we have two years to make it.... permanent.
As long as the West Coast of America is still accessible through SFO the A380 will continue to remain a mystery.
All in all quite a good EBA...growth, promotion opportunies, maintenance of salary and conditions and the return of a large chunk of regional flying.
An excellent piece of negotiation.
Dixon goes after the Olympics(the only reason he is staying)
Now if the Black Widow would only retire..........
What a wonderful world it would be.......oh yeah

[And5678]

how dare you try and pass any moral judgment on anyone in here...

This is really giving us a chance to fight another day...

At least now there is some hope that we will see full time Australia jobs...

An excellent piece of negotiation...

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Hear hear!!!!

:D

[Guardian1]

30 November 2007 ID79-07
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
PROMOTIONS FOR CSM AND CSS
We announced that as a result of the EBA negotiations and the proposed in-principle agreement that a number of Onboard Manager promotions would occur. The first of these promotions are being announced by the Company today.
You will find details on the CIS screen and also on the Cabin Crew Web Site. Details of numbers and bases are not known at this stage but if you are interested in applying for these positions that will be on current rates of pay and conditions, as will all promotions for existing crew, following the vote on the proposed EBA, please contact your CCM or CCTM or follow the directions as advertised by the Company

Written by Steven Reed – President International Division
and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division
20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192 www.faaa.net

[mrpaxing]

"bending over " !!!!!!!!
'. Its promotion time, hear ,hear , out come the ego's of the visitors and the greasy poles one has to climb to get a look in. i for one cannot understand why BFA get a direct entry into the csm position, when every css had to earn their strips in cattle class. guardy, please explain!:*

[Flugbegleiter]

Ah that's nice and cosy. You scratch mine and I will scratch yours and f@#$ the rest of them. :ugh:
Thanks for your thoughts Pegasus and honesty.
Mid :ok:

Ok, so what would you like us to do? Fight for the rights of future crew by going on strike? We nearly tried that last time and PEOPLE LIKE YOU came in to undermine our action. It's because of people like you that there's no fight left. You've shot yourself in the foot. How dare you now take the moral high ground.

None of us are happy with agreeing to lower pay and conditions for any future colleagues, but there is not much we can do about it. At least this way, we can protect our own incomes, whilst at the same time helping to create new jobs in Australia, rather than forcing people to go overseas to get jobs as a QF flight attendant.

Any current FA who has a problem with this has NO RIGHT to. We had a wave of union meetings and we voted unanimously to go down this path. Anyone who had a problem with it had their chance to speak up back then.

I'm still waiting to see the details and will attend a union meeting ASAP, but generally I think the FAAA has done an excellent job.

[speedbirdhouse]

midnight63,

you really are quite pathetic.

[surfside6]

Read Midnight-63 posts and you quickly come to the conclusion that he/she is in need of help.it is also obvious that the standard for CC has been severely compromised if someone like this can be employed.
Mr Paxing posts indicate that he/she does not have the necessary temperament to be an onboard manager.So Mr.Paxing complaints and concerns are void.

[And5678]

Paging Midnight 63...

The forum is awaiting your thoughts and feedback.

I repeat, paging Midnight 63!

:rolleyes:

[left 4 primary]

To Flugbegleiter,
I agree with everything you said, as a matter of fact,I couldn't have said it better myself.:D

Please everyone attend the FAAA meetings get the facts and have your say in an open forum, it's your chance to voice your concerns and hear the opinion of others , everyone's future depends on it.

See you there Midnight, oh ,should I assume you're a member? Oh I forgot your a str1kebre@ker and therefore don't believe in unions or collective bargaining, but only worried that you won't be able to come back from New Zealand under the old award .

Why don't you talk to Geoff Dixon or Allison Webster about arranging your own individual Australian Workplace Agreement.

Sorry,too late since Kevin Rudd got voted in last week, but you never know , you could tell Dixon that you would love to work more hours for less pay, he would probably nominate you for an Excel award.:ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Why don't you talk to Geoff Dixon or Allison Webster about arranging your own individual Australian Workplace Agreement.
Sorry,too late since Kevin Rudd got voted in last week
AWA's are still available. In case you didn't realise John Howard is still the PM (till Monday) and the Workchoices legislation is still current.
If you were wondering, less flexible employment arrangements = higher unemployment.
Left before Primary indeed!
Earwax anyone?

[cartexchange]

well Midnight-63 has removed another one of his obnoxious posts, lucky it was copied by OCCR/ flugbegleiter

we do indeed have long memories.

midnight we are all waiting for your response!

as stated on here, we were prepared in 2004 to fight hard to maintain our conditions and you came in at the small wee hours and trained under the cover of darkness to undermine us, and now you ask us to fight for you!

one of the lowest comments on this forum!!!!!

[surfside6]

Frozo is one of those rare individuals that knows everything...thanks to google.
IKE...I Know Everything..
Self opinionated self absorbed is our hyper googler....Mr Frozo...who,buy the way, has no tertiary credentials whatsoever
He will tell you he has,but wont tell you which institution he received them from

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Geez SurfSide. So someone without tertiary qual's shouldn't be a professional pilot? Is that what you are saying?
I have a Cert III, a Diploma, 2 x Advanced Diploma's, a Bachelor's degree and 50% of a Masters underway.
Such is life though eh Surfside?
You've said you've been a great CC advocate for years... Well you've reduced my opinion of CC.

Oh.. and Surfside - Did you really need to use Google to work out that JH is still PM and that Earwax eater hasn't introduced any new legislation yet?

[lowerlobe]

PAF.....

Still upset after last weekends election result?

It looks like you're yesterdays man just like your hero Johnny Howard.....

AWA's are history as Rudd went into the election with a platform to remove AWA's.

Winning one of the most decisive victories in Australian history he therefore has a mandate to remove them.

PAF ,if you want to live in the past that's fine with us but the rest of the country is moving forward.....

You could become part of history and have a drink with another group that is as relevant as Johnny Howard and the Liberal party..........I'm sure you will remember the Democrats.....

[Bazzamundi]

Wow at least 50% of this thread is actual discussion on a topic and only 50% is childish and petty name calling.

Grow up people. Do you ever wonder why you lot have been banned from so many forums???

[lowerlobe]

To be fair Bazza....

This last post was in response to a pilot mentioning the issue and relevance of AWA's in a thread about EBA's.

I don't think I have to show you the number of threads involving pilots that end up in heated arguments with PAF and others.....

Back onto this matter though....Pegasus,Guardian etc...

Given what Pegasus said about transferring to the A380 and the conditions attached do you think that many or sufficient existing crew will want to transfer?

[prunezeuss]

If I can still access the States without flying on the blimp,I wont go near it.This EBA will see me out.I love flying on the 744 and that is where I will probably stay.

[Pegasus747]

just to allay any concerns or confusion... for the current CSM vacancies being advertised only CSS's are eligible. no BFA or FA will be able to access CSM applications unless the EBA is voted up.
then it would apply to future vacancies. I think that a competent CSS would always get it ahead of a flight attendant without experience. however with the projected recruitment and promotions into the future i think that there are some CSS's that are not up to the CSM position and some that dont even want it so i would rather have it opened up to our flight attendants rather than overseas bases or SHort Haul CSM

[prunezeuss]

While it is fantastic that promotional opportunities are available to Australian based crew,its unfortunate that the promotional process is not transparent.
The last intake of onboard managers was a farce.Many of those chosen and not promoted are both inept and incapable of performing their duties and responsibilities satisfactorily.Hiding and crying in a toilet when an IFE malfunctions is not the sign of an individual equipped to be an onboard manager.
The position of Onboard Manager has been demeaned.Unless you are "Known" your chances of promotion are zero.Performance reviews and KPIs are much better indicators of potential than the BOS desk and coffee with Sam and Ali.

[Pegasus747]

The thing that i find totally galling about promotions is the lack of transparency too. To be honest managerial preragative underpins all promotions in nearly all companys.

if they want you...you will get it

if they dont want you ..you wont get it

some of the best candidates for CSM in my view have missed out. And in my view those that generally miss out (other than those that are incompetent) are ones that cant be "controlled". Independent thinkers or those that crew will listen to rather than management have got little chance unless they become expert in "playing the game".

Sadly past and present management select who they want rather than who does the best in the "fair" process.

Its the way of the world

[mrpaxing]

with your assessment peg47. I dont agree with the future process of promoting from the bfa ranks. most bfa have no idea how to fix things (from seats to ife) and the time spend in y/c is part of that learning curve. :rolleyes:

[twiggs]

I dont agree with the future process of promoting from the bfa ranks. most bfa have no idea how to fix things (from seats to ife) and the time spend in y/c is part of that learning curve.

So you think BFA are not qualified to manage the aircraft but FA are?
Most BFA have spent plenty of time in economy just as most FA have spent plenty of time up the front, but if I use your logic, I would prefer to have a BFA with greater experience with P/J managing the aircraft. The CSS can handle the problems with economy seats if your ridiculous view of BFA skills in Y were true.

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus is certainly right in that the promotional process with the company is as transparent as mud.The company has it's chosen candidates picked before they've even applied.

It's not just Cabin Crew either as I have heard some good stories about promotions in Engineering as well.

I think mrpaxing is also right in that a BFA has no real idea of what a CSM does anymore than a FA.The CSM's job is not only about the pax and the IFE but is also a conduit between the company,the pax,the tech and cabin crew not to mention ground staff.....in fact everyone.

Until you have done the job you really don't know how much there is to it.

The only difference in including BFA crew for the job is that the company have already picked who they want for BFirst.This way they already have a pool of their own candidates ready for the appointee ...sorry I meant selection process.

How about a new selection process in which a real world test is involved and is part of the promotional process.Something which is fair and shows talent and aptitude.....then again since when is that something that the company looks for.

How about when a crew member wants to apply for CSM they have to spend so many sectors as a Claytons CSS working with the actual CSS in Y/C for say a period of 6 months.

During this time they are evaluated not only by the CSS but the CSM as well.They would be given tasks such as fixing seats in all areas and dealing with pax complaints and other issues that are normally done by on board managers.

This would include BFA as well as FA...Let's see how they do in the real world and not just because they have lunch with Fat Boy Slim or someone else in the office.

Any other ideas .....

[DEFCON4]

If your manager,Taranto,Webster or someone else in the office hasnt suggested that you apply for a promotion then dont bother.
This is an invitation(code) to go straight to Uniforms for your red tie or Scarfe.
In short, the interview process is just for show and doesnt apply to you.
In a religious sense you have been.... anointed

[Pegasus747]

Defcon,

i agree in many respects with what you say. Some crew have become quite accomplished at talking the talk but not then after being promoted being able to walk the walk.

In my view there is no substitute for experience...a flight attendant will certainly pick up experience but being able to Manage in a skill that is learned over time, and managing as a CSM is a lot more challenging than it appears.

The good CSM's make the job look easy. The incompetent ones are constantly in a flap..Given that some of the current CSMs are totally incompetent as we all know doesnt strengthen the argument for the current system ...LOL

But it HAs served us generally well

[lowerlobe]

But it HAs served us generally well

.....Pegasus,by 'us' you mean of course those that are already CSM's.....

How about those hundreds if not more that would like to get the job and more importantly have the skills ?

[blurter8]

How about a system whereby before becoming a CSM an applicant should have remained in the position of CSS for at least a year. Hopefully that will be sufficient time to prove that an applicant has the "mettle" to at least make the transition to the position of CSM let alone carry out the duties profficiently as one. I am personally just a little pissed at watching these people who see the CSS position as just a obstacle in the "race" to CSM.
Any CSM,s out there think that this may be a good idea.
Have just heard some of those that are about to apply for the CSM position and i am beginning to cringe.....just a tad!

[Pegasus747]

lower,
i meant served Qantas....it would be fair to say that many CSMs are selected well. However i think some of the more recent ones (a few in particular) leave me a little bothered lol

[left 4 primary]

I mentioned this promotion factor in EBA8 in my first ever post on the 27th Nov, currently on page 21, and I immediately got crucified by Midnight.

So far, I agree with everyone.

You're very quite about the subject now Midnight.:E

[blurter8]

Peg,
You are way to kind, they have only left you bothered, most have left me gobsmacked. Since the Bafoons behind the glass walls have nested the application procedure and its outcomes has been laughable, so much so that some damn decent candidates are no longer considering applying for the position. Given that unless the, dare i say it, managers, cabin crew that is, have personally seen an applicant "manage" then they are up that creek in a barbed wire boat!. Remember the acknowledged or supported box!.
The process needs to be given a large dose of salts before a little kudos can be granted it.

[left 4 primary]

Food For Thought.
Just received this e-mail in regards to the EBA, thought I'd pass it on for a response.

How did Bill Clinton put it........? One has to be very careful in deciphering and comprehending what is being said/offered in these 'dirty deals.' For example the CC were led to believe (from FAAA) that Qantas would, 'maintain the current cap on overseas bases' and that this would mean no additional overseas recruiting. However, it then comes to light that the 'current cap' is a percentage and that with the additional Australian crew employed through QCCA, there would also be an additional 400 overseas CC.

The CC were also led to believe the deal stitched up flying of all new types, ala A380 and B787 with words such as, 'all new wide-bodied aircraft flown Internationally will be flown by long-haul crew.' Obviously all the new QCCA and overseas recruits will be considered 'long-haul crew.'

Oh, and as Mick said above, all this with the J-scale pay for new hires. I bet they'll be rushing in to pay their subscriptions to the FAAA.

What's that nagging prickly feeling at the back of my neck? GUILT! And the $3000 is blood money. And Rudd had only been in for 3 days.

We've been conditioned to believe that 3% is the holy grail of pay rises. I hope that Contract 2007 looks substantially better than the CC deal. It stinks!



The market rules.

The conclusion by both teams involved is that suitable units are available for a 25%discount on hourly running costs. These units are expected to be 30% more productive than the current units.

If this is so- and I don''t doubt that it is-the FAAA have done well to come out with improved conditions for it's present workforce.

Clearly they were given these conditions as the price of retaining some experience in the company and industrial and political peace and quiet.

PR is also another factor. For an Australian employer to be seen cutting the pay and conditions of current workers, or hiring an increasing percentage of foreign workers to do what are seen as Australian jobs, in a company considered an Australian Icon could shift sentiment and damage the bottom line.

Also it should be noticed that the gains- and reduced conditions for future hires- were obtained via negotiations and with reference to the real market.

The lesson for AIPA is clear, understand the market, understand what is possible and negotiate.

Technical aircrew are a different kind of unit and not so easy to obtain or train as cabin crew. Using market theory the price should respond to the demand, scarcity and complexity of the unit needed at the sharp end of the airplane.

The current market appears to favor the seller. That doesn't mean the buyers wont try and project another perception, that's just a normal negotiating tactic.

I still hold the same view. Negotiation over litigation, as much rapport with those you negotiate with as possible, and total understanding of the market and what can be achieved.

A good outcome for both parties should be possible under present conditions.


Further Thoughts.....


“I thought a union was to represent ALL employees”

It is. Therefore, that is exactly what the FAAA have done.
All employees currently in the FAAA have just negotiated a good deal…..for them!

I think you will find the realisation that the “golden-days” of a long-term Flight Attendant, earning more than a Regional Airline Captain are gone and this is the FAAA method of dealing with that form of change or hard economic fact. That’s what we are told by our Qantas Flight Attendant colleagues here on the coast anyway…… TJF!

Realisation…….that there is NOT a World-Wide shortage of Flight Attendants. Realisation that most of the world start-up Airlines are driving down the rates of pay for Flight Attendants.

Yes, the arguments of Pay and Conditions always come after one secures employment in that “dream” airline job. Plenty of young persons seeking travel on paid conditions. Certainly beats “back-packing” to exotic destinations. I wonder how the service standard on-board will alter after January 1 2008, or if anyone really cares in corporate Qantas.

Do such savings make for significant Managerial Bonuses in the short to medium term?

I would expect to see VR offered (on several occasions) to the current Flight Attendants over the next Three to Five years.

Industrially considering the FAAA position, should we at AIPA deal for those not employed and as yet not even members of our Association. Of course not, however and possibly another analogy to consider…… if you went to Griffith University and offered the Aviation Students employment on wide-body jets for $95,000 you would probably be “crushed” in the rush to sign up.

However, unlike the Flight Attendants, that is NOT a feasible prospect as such “newbie’s” cannot compliment your current pilot position, after a five-week ground course (thank-heavens) and service training.

Observing the current Qantas corporate industrial strategy and trends and considering the deep industrial aspects, I expect we would not be as stupid industrially (at least I hope we would not….) as to de-grade our conditions and profession today, based on fiscal motivations, that could be used against us all in the future.

Do I really care about what the FAAA has done, No!

Do I expect that Long Haul Fleet Pay, the ATO Reasonable Allowance Rates and Common Pay for Second Officers and revised Scheduling Conditions may be an industrial determination by Senior Qantas Management in the short to medium term, Yes!

I say this as I find the FAAA negotiation an illustrative and highly descriptive over-view of where Qantas Senior Management (read….Ian Oldmeadow Consulting and Qantas I.R.) and world trends, wishes to move in regards to pay, conditions and long-term employment for Technical Aircrew.

Unlike the FAAA, our position industrially, will depend on the ability of our AIPA negotiators to strike long-term industrial deals that preserve the best of conditions, pay and benefits for us now.

The ability to be able to negotiate effectively and strategically in EBA 8 by the AIPA is now obviously paramount, as is the timing, given recent world events.

With the price of oil at $100 a barrel, the World Share Markets expecting a recession in the USA, the FAAA having just completed a “costly” EBA (in company terms) and the Jetstar's Pilots EBA being re-negotiated to keep crews in aircraft …OH!... and a $70 Million Dollar fine for Qantas Price Fixing…I trust there is something left to pay we Long-Haul Pilots and Flight Engineers, if the deal is ever done. Sooner than later too!

I did read the AIPA insights “party line” yesterday, however I and my colleagues still have NO idea of what is being offered (why the big-secret AIPA….) or traded by either party. Surprise package… I am sure……..I trust not of the nature of the FAAA though!

Just my humble opinion and thoughts of course…… http://by130w.bay130.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http%3a%2f%2f65.55.135.121%2fatt%2f GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3df3236376-11d4-44c3-909b-fd20b10c273e.gif%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvZ2lm%26name%3daW1hZ2UwMDEuZ2 lm%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFalse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253 a004c01c83339%2524035147b0%25246501a8c0%2540john0e3c5f58c4&oneredir=1&ip=10.1.106.99&d=d3643&mf=2


A Good Deal....For Whom?

Sounds like they’ve sold their souls for CPI, a Superannuation sweetener & a before tax “bonus” of 3000 pieces of silver! They’ll have no one to blame but themselves when, a few years down track, the following scenario has unfolded:

The ratio of the more fortunate “old guard” to the newer less fortunate has changed. The bitterness and divisiveness of a significant B Scale has festered away for a few years now. The initial novelty of being a new flight attendant has truly worn off.

They feel that they are overworked and underpaid – at least compared to those other more fortunate, truly understanding, empathetic original FAs. A new EBA is up for negotiation. The Company offers the lower pay scale plus enough of a sweetener to get the majority (now the less fortunate) to vote yes.

Ipso facto, the EBA gets up and all FA’s are now on J* style conditions. What a magnificent coup! One has to appreciate the Machiavellian brilliance of this medium term play



It doesn’t really matter how you try to justify it; the bottom line is, if you willingly vote in a B Scale you are acknowledging that your job is worth less than you are currently getting i.e. you agree with management that you are over paid!! Dangerous ground that. Then, it’s only a matter of time until you are in the same unenviable position. Somewhat difficult to then argue that you’re special & are worth more than those other plebes, isn’t it?

I know, market forces, high oil prices, competition etc Yada yada yada. Airline profits have been great. The sky is not about to fall in. There is no reason why people have to sell their profession short, merely to line the pockets of some little office oxygen thief, so he can have the bonus that he so richly deserves!

What is of concern here is the principle of a B scale & the foolishness, and deleterious consequences of signing up to it, for short term gain. They get paid what they get paid; rightly or wrongly. I’ll not enter into that. Who says that they have to devalue their jobs? Management? Must be necessary then. No agenda here. Plenty of used car sales people though. Are management reducing their remuneration? Mmmmmmmmmmm.

Let’s just hope that we have the sense to do otherwise. But than again, there was that great SH EBA result. http://by130w.bay130.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http%3a%2f%2f65.55.135.121%2fatt%2f GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3d18efdfff-30d7-48c4-8a86-788608175c2d.gif%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvZ2lm%26name%3daW1hZ2UwMDIuZ2 lm%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFalse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253 a004d01c83339%2524035147b0%25246501a8c0%2540john0e3c5f58c4&oneredir=1&ip=10.1.106.99&d=d3643&mf=2http://by130w.bay130.mail.live.com/mail/SafeRedirect.aspx?hm__tg=http%3a%2f%2f65.55.135.121%2fatt%2f GetAttachment.aspx&hm__qs=file%3d4ced6f3e-7460-455b-8459-5430de8771bc.gif%26ct%3daW1hZ2UvZ2lm%26name%3daW1hZ2UwMDMuZ2 lm%26inline%3d1%26rfc%3d0%26empty%3dFalse%26imgsrc%3dcid%253 a004e01c83339%2524035147b0%25246501a8c0%2540john0e3c5f58c4&oneredir=1&ip=10.1.106.99&d=d3643&mf=2



Speaking of other EBAs, today the IRC granted LAMEs permission to undertake a ballot for industrial action for the purpose of advancing claims in their EBA. The ballot closes 20th December and the proposals include overtime bans, higher duties bans, and stop work meetings, all in time for Christmas.

Regarding the FAAA, despite what their deal looks like at first glance let's not make too many grievous assumptions. The name of the game is extracting the best possible gains under the existing circumstances, given the current market supply/demand relationship and importantly, the employer's capacity to pay.

[cartexchange]

as long as you can sit in the office for a few weeks, and can crawl your way to the BOS desk, then you have a chance.
The managers in there do have some input, but the main thing is you have to be known by the ST and AW. ( by the way the managers should have some say lets be realistic here!)
The process however is no where near as corrupt as when the Tamil tiger was in charge, nepotism at its highest, the corruption and the "most favored" treatment was used then for the CSM intake.
Promotion in any industry has its flaws, I personally think they should take a persons record and their BPR as a key indicator!
The applicant should serve at least 2 years as a CSS and even that is a short time, however its unwise to take them straight from the F/A ranks.

[DEFCON4]

From whom did you receive the email?
It is a rather verbose piece of correspondence that draws the conclusion that is was a good deal under the circumstances.
By agreeing to a B Scale the FAAA has not admitted that LH CC are overpaid.
They have been pragmatic in ensuring LH CC survival.The renumeration we enjoy came about because of two events...the floating of the $A in 1984 and the forced introduction of the Bid System in 1988.Prior to 1988 flying was a good partime job.....and so it will be again.
This an excellent outcome considering the FAAA had few alternatives to maintaining the status quo.
The end result will see those of us currently employed dwindle to insignificance in the following 10 years.Qantas will have its required reduction in wages and hence superannuation.What Current crew will receive is an extended opportunity to leave while enjoying current Ts and Cs.The alternative was to have the overseas bases increase to more than 25% of total numbers and almost all regional flying given to the domestics.Promotion would have almost certainly been offered to the AKL base.
There is now going to be accelerated movement amongst all ranks.Particularly satisfying for those who have called JoBurg home for the last seven years.
New destinations for mainline are also on the horizon..greater choice and promotion for everyone.
This can be seen as a medium term macchiavellian masterstroke by QF...so what.?New hires will determine their lifestyle according to the wages they will receive...you dont miss what you have never had.
Current employees will be able maintain the lifestyles that are predicated on the remuneration they have received previously and now(assured of) currently.
A win win for all under the circumstances.
The alternatives were not really acceptable or viable to most current CC.

[Pegasus747]

The last post be DEFCON best sums up the position that Long Haul crew have been facing, and also captures the essential elements of the membership meetings held by the FAAA and discussions with crew.

Unlike pilots that are contemplating increasing their hours by 10%, the FAAA wass instructed by its members not to accept any increase in hours for existing crew nor contemplate a reduction in core conditions.

i dont actually believe a new starter rate would have been necessary at all if all current crew were prepared to bring work rules and hours in line with the other Qantas employees that are getting the work now. Current crew have built their lives around the current conditions and hours and as such the leadership of the FAAA was forced to look elsewhere for some of the productivity.

The current laws that will be around for some time allow Qantas to set up a new company, not talk to the FAAA and employ new flight attendants on whatever money and condtitions they like and extract flying from the current crew to give them work. They could have given them the A380 and any new aircraft and we would have been left with no regional flying, no access to the A380, no access to any new aircraft and potentially our existing aircraft being overtaken by umlimted overseas based crew without any restrictions.

We have never been able to improve the conditions of those crew bases overseas. The new starters will work with us, get our allowances, get decent money access to promotion and also , being members of the FAAA, and part of our EBA we can work together to improve their conditions over time.

If they are overseas they will never be employed in Australia, or at best they will be casuals for a labour hire firm in melbourne with no annual leave, no sick leave, no long service leave, no staff travel and only 80 hours guarenteed hours a month.

The new proposed EBA finally wraps everything up into a comprehensive package that deals Long Haul crew back into the equation. we now have access to Aircraft, new routes and potentially make ourselves a competitive growth option for qantas rather than Jetstar International.

The conditions of our new starters will be streets ahead of jetstar international and it should be noted that they are lining up around the block for a job at jetstar.

[blurter8]

Absolutely Cart, i could not agree more. 1 year is to short a period of time to "cut your teeth" your 2 year suggestion is far better. As far as Lynn,s period of time at the helm and what occured in relation to promotion.i am not in a position to comment accurately. I did however feel it was a conflict of interest that the same person who dealt with disciplinary issues also had a large input in the promotion process.
It should be compulsory that BPR are taken into consideration for the promotional process, i place far more weight in the comments and feedback from my own onboard managers and colleagues than i do in a manager who has never and probably will never see my ability or inability first hand in the job i am employed.
I agree that there has to be a process but the process in place at the moment is far far from ideal.

[left 4 primary]

Blurter8 I couldn't agree with you more .

When the Tamil Tiger was in, she should have not been involved in the selection process as there was a definite conflict of interest.

[RedTBar]

One of the biggest hurdles for someone going for the jacket is the base transfer list.If there are 30 vacancies then the transfers from melbourne will take the bulk of the spots in Sydney.
If you are Sydney based crew and you have ties to Sydney like children,wife/husband, mortgage or whatever and you have not got the time or money to move to melbourne then you are fighting against the tide.
Lobey is right with the company wanting bfa crew to go for the jacket as well.The company has already got their favourites in bfa and now they have the chance to let them run the show.
If you want to be a csm then you should have had to do time down the back.This way at least you have a better go at getting someone who knows what they are doing.There are a lot of treasures up there in j/c pr p/c who's only experience in y/c is when they go to the crew rest.
This is just another chance for the office clowns to get their mates in the jacket.
You guys are right about the tamil tiger and I was very happy when she got shown the door.They reckon you could hear her from the domestic terminals when she was escorted out the door.

[surfside6]

Going from a BFA to a CSS or a CSM without having a period of ongoing experience in Y/C means you are being set up to fail.
When you realize you dont have the skills to perform effectively in these roles the shine and elation evaporates very quickly.Crying in the toilet when the IFE wets itself is a perfect example.Crew will very quickly determine that you are incompetent.Without the respect of your crew you might as well stay at home and take up knitting.
Taranto has started knitting classes and vacancies are available every Monday Wednesday and Friday..Problem is.......she doesnt know how to knit herself.....an incompetent leading the more incompetent
Works for me......as pure entertainment

[nite walker]

Its great to see a QF post site again. Lets hope we can keep our cool and stay this time.Some of the usual suspects seem not to have taken the hint from the moderators and continue the childish posts.Please stop guys.
First off this in-principle EBA looks very positive. Lots of good questions and answers on here. So far it looks a reasonable outcome considering all the different industrial situations we were facing.

L4 primary play nice. I think i know the person you are slinging about and have flown with him. If its the person i think you are referring to hes actually one of the better CSMs. I asked him way back when about those rumours and he was very straight about it all. No he didnt date the Tiger and he went to the footy with another manager who took her.He wasnt given a guest list before hand so he said. He just turned up and a Mr Sinclair had invited her. As i said I asked him at the time and he had no problem explaining. Not only did he cop a lot of flack when he got the job so has just about every other official.
What i hate about this industry is one minute we bag people like MM, SR. and other officials and next they are lauded such as now because of a good EBA. Wait till MM gets a promotion its only cos he was on the union people will say he got it. Ive flown with MM and he was a good CSS. Meanwhile many of us dont turn up at meetings, or spend our spare time doing all the stuff these guys do on their days off.Most of it unpaid.
They get no thanks only mud thrown at them when its undeserved.

Slinging mud is what got us all kicked off this site. If you are going to post stick to the facts.Particularly if you are talking about others. Oh I forgot this is a rumour network.;) i thought the idea of this site is find out about what was rumour and what is fact.
Lets hope we get all the facts on the EBA before we vote not after it. :E

get your facts right L4 primary, as i said hes one of the better CSMs.

[lowerlobe]

Originally posted by nite walker....What i hate about this industry is one minute we bag people like MM, SR. and other officials and next they are lauded such as now because of a good EBA. Wait till MM gets a promotion its only cos he was on the union people will say he got it. Ive flown with MM and he was a good CSS........

Now who would post a comment like that........Mmmmmmmm.

As I remember this CSM was just another example of the cronyism that typified a certain managers style.To be honest I don't think much has changed or ever will as far as the office is concerned.

With that in mind and an EBA up for a vote it might be a good idea to include a new CSM selection process in the document.

Otherwise the same thing will happen time and again and the best candidates for the job will miss out.

[nite walker]

No Im not the CSM in question. Im a syd based FBA.
With comments which followed my post it is clear why we got kicked off this site.
Now peoples views on here are suggesting MM was not a good CSS. Obviously someone who hadnt flown wih him. Was he the best ever? I never said that. I said hewas good as was the other CSM.
You have your opinions I have mine. Lets stop the personal attacks. If you guys are FAAA members Im glad im not a FAAA rep.
When will people in here grow up :ugh:.
By the way your right the selection process does have flaws, show me a perfect system, dont think it exists.

[cartexchange]

left 4 primary, A lot of people know who you are talking about and its not fair that you post his name his skills are subjective I thinks its best you delete the reference to his nickname.
After all he is a colleague and like him or not he doesn't deserve what you have written.

[And5678]

I hate it when I don't get who we're alluding to in a thread! It takes all the fun out of it....

:ugh:

[Pegasus747]

for those that are tempted to victimise indivuduals in here by using their initials/nick names/ or any other things that clearly identify them i think is being most uncharitable.

I personally think its quite cowardly and detracts from the credibility of those that post comments of that nature. Some of the posters here make very sensible comments or pose sensible questions only to destroy crediibility by making unfair and anonymous comments about fellow crew members.

To be quite frank its "un" australian and i hope that it stops.

[lowerlobe]

nite walker..

No names have been mentioned only opinions.....and since this is a rumour network I don't think any harm has been done.

You might feel as though someone is competent as a CSM while others do not.That's not a reason to close a thread down....or want it to....

As far as the CSM process is concerned let's hear some idea's for a better way...

Unless of course you all want the more of the same .....

As I said why can't it be part of the new EBA?

The company I think has had some big wins with this EBA and if they want the best people for the job why should they say no....

[Pegasus747]

I will leave you with this thought before cooking dinner and opening a fine red.

The only selection process that would be completely impartial would be one that Qantas management have no part in :)

If you could get them to pay 000's to have a firm of professional headhunters select CSM's you would be headed in the right direction.

Having said that, if that criteria applied to the selection of management like CCM's and CCTM's we would not have half the problems we have today

the problem starts at the top

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus...

So that means you are happy with what is in place and will not try and do anything about it?

I don't think it is possible to be impartial but something would have to be better than what is in place.

What do you think about TBars comment about base transfers compounding the problem as well as the other idea of candidates being required to spend a period of time as a CSS?

When was the last time a BFA spent any real time in Y/C let alone fixing problems...and I don't mean technical ones.

Winnie has gone and her appointees are part of history but at the very least you can try and improve the system.

[surfside6]

Sorry Peg 747...my posts were off the mark and have now been deleted

[Pass-A-Frozo]

AWA's are history as Rudd went into the election with a platform to remove AWA's.
Not quite mate. Cabin Crew are still entitled to ask management for an AWA.
I good way to discuss you worth to the company above other's and ask for a flexible employment contract. You have nothing to lose in asking, only something to gain if you are well qualified.

[lowerlobe]

PAF...

It's true that at the moment AWA's are still in place but as The PM elect has said that won't be for long...

AWA's like Howard are soon to be a part of history.....

Why did the news just before the election that around 50% of AWA's failed the fair go test that Howard put in place to try and quell the resentment against Work Choices?

[nite walker]

Lower lobe,
I dont want the thread closed down nor did I suggest it. The behaviour highlighted by myself and Peg is what gets us closed down. Very nasty personal attacks.Cowardly as Peg put it.
Very impressed sufside, commonsense and credibilty prevails, we all have our opinions on different characters in this job. The characters often make it entertaining.
Lowerlobe in this instance the character referred to has a reasonably high profile and is well known. Which makes the post very unfair as Peg said. He is well liked by many and not by some, arent we all in that boat? Enough said, lets hope:8
Peg a question. why are F/As able to go straight to CSM if successful yet some of these candidates are not good enough to be a FBA? Maybe this double standard and ridiculous situation could somehow be addressed in the EBA. Long overdue :ugh:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Some constructive accounting there:

Number of workplace agreements actioned 181,915
Failed – agreement ceases to operate 1,826

That's 1% that failed the fairness test. It's rather disingenuous to include things like "requests for further information" as failures - like the union did, wouldn't you agree?

Unfortunately you like others fell for the ACTU advertising.

CC have nothing to fear asking for an AWA. Asking does not relate to being "forced" (which is unlawful) to sign. What provisions are in the EBA that you would never use? Those conditions cost you money as the company is forced to cost them across the entire workforce.

[lowerlobe]

PAF...

It is pointless continuing this topic as it seems that you are in denial that Howard lost and that AWA's are going to be destined for history lessons in some economics class you will probably teach....

This thread is about the CC EBA.....which has been negotiated by a union....

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I'm very aware Howard has lost. I believe most people will be aware of that in the next 3 years.

However in the interests of free information people still don't have to pay union fees and have their wages fixed with what the company applies across the board.
Does the new EBA include maternity leave?

[lowerlobe]

PAF...

I think you should check the other thread on the removal of AWA's by the new government.

I have re printed an article which shows your 1% quote is a load of rubbish.

Now back to the QF L/H EBA.....

[Pass-A-Frozo]

tut tut.. listening to ACTU again...
Here are the figures:
Workplace Authority (http://www.oea.gov.au/graphics.asp?showdoc=/news/researchStatistics.asp)
Number of workplace agreements lodged 183,203
Failed – agreement ceases to operate 1,826
asking for information is not a failure - as much is you wish it to be.
You've fallen for propoganda yet again..
CC have nothing to fear asking about what's available under an AWA. What they should fear is being locked in to conditions that have been based by the company on some of the worst employees averaged out with some of the best. What end of the scale are you?

[lowerlobe]

listening to ACTU again...

...Err No ,it was in the Australian and reported widely in other media sources....

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Yes well go to the http://www.oea.gov.au/graphics.asp?showdoc=/news/researchStatistics.asp and find the truth. Perhaps you'll find how the main stream media have been less than honest in order to grab headlines. It obviously worked in your case.

The fact remains. CC can approach management, ask and negotiate an AWA - if they don't like it - they don't have to sign.

[Flugbegleiter]

PAF, as has already been stated, this is a thread about QF LH CC EBA8, not WorkChoices. I don't think you'll find too many friends here if you keep going down the path you are going. You are the one who is being ignorant and idealistic about WorkChoices. The sooner they are gone, the better for the majority of workers in this country.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

You mean it will be better for those that don't lose their job under a fixed wage regime. ;) The fact remains CC can ask for an AWA tomorrow.

[simsalabim]

What CC PAF ? certainly not L/H Australian based . QF management aren't the slightest bit interested .I have personally discussed this (AWA) issue with the 2IC and she told me categorically they have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with F/A's on an individual basis , so if a misguided f/a wanted to go down this road then they could ask all they liked but they would not be getting :bored: Anyway as has been pointed out already they are dead in the water ,goooooooooorn , kapuuut so get over it and move on.

[cartexchange]

peg 747 are you serious about an external firm doing CSM intake you have to be joking!
I will remind you of something!

Coopers & Lybrand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do I have to say anymore! I'd rather have Winnie and her weird selection process!

faaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pegasus747]

i think the point i was trying to make was that management prerogative always prevails in terms of promotions in most companies that i know of.


I cannot think of a selection process that any organisation would agree to that would essentially allow crew to select those suitable for promotion. It seems to me that most crew have their own views as to what makes a good csm.

As for some of the more recent appointees who have anecdotally had some serious issues... i feel sorry for the crew that have to fly with them.

But as a mate of mine who is a CSM says...ITS BLISS... the more incompetent the better..:they make me look like a star!

A funny line for sure but tragically for the company and the crew they have to "manage" - a disaster.

YOu reap what you sow...

[cartexchange]

you're quite right Pegasus some of the latest recruits have been a real worry!

still the process they use now is better than the tamil tiger used!

[lowerlobe]

Originally posted by Pegasus747....
I cannot think of a selection process that any organisation would agree to that would essentially allow crew to select those suitable for promotion.

Pegasus...I don't remember anyone suggesting that they want crew to pick new CSM's.

Only that they want the process to be more transparent so that the company will find it more difficult to 'appoint' their chosen ones.

That is exactly what they are trying to do by allowing BFA crew to move directly into the CSM role.

It has been suggested by myself and others that candidates for the position should have spent some period of time as a CSS in Y/C.

It was also mentioned that another problem is that a lot of positions in Sydney are taken by crew on the transfer list.

This means that if you want the job you are basically forced to move to Melbourne.

Does the union feel that something can and should be done to improve the selection process?

[hawke eye]

Well, well, well, its nice to be back :).
i just heard through the grapevine we could get some extra information about the eba on here. I thought it had closed down. Glad it hasnt.

Good to see some of the old familiar faces, Peg, Llobe, cart exch, guardian, surfside etc.

Seems midnight is still at it, a new one mr frozo doesnt know the diff between talking about AWAs and EBAs...errr its about a week;).

L4Primary is accused of being a coward(rightly so) and has disappeared. Good riddance and all is right in the qf forum world.
Yes i have missed the cut and thrust of the debates in here.

Enough nostalgia just thought Id say hello to my debating colleagues and congratulate Guadian on a good EBA.
I will enjoy question time at the meetings.
In as much as we can grasp without the detail it seems ok.
I guess short haul must be wondering where does it leave them.
That too will be revealed all in Darths good timeI guess.

That is not a poke at SHaul. Reading on here it appears we have not penalised them should they wish to transfer to Long Haul nor should they be. We need to be better than that, again I applaud MM and SR.
But I still wonder what are the ramifications of our eba upon them. Does anyone know when the shaul eba is? and anyone from s haul what is your viewpoint and what is the discussion about our eba which is happenning over in your domain. Has your officials said anything,ie, good , bad ugly, would be interesed to hear. Please lets not turn this question of interest into a slanging match us against them.
glad to be back:ok: i hope:uhoh:

[hawke eye]

Pegasus,
I agee with L Lobe, the CSM selection process needs to be transparent. The FAAA needs to put pressure on the Company by highlighting past unusual selection criteria. such as being on the BOS desk.

Its one thing to cop when there are 20 or so positions its another when there are 80 and F/As are eligible. If the FAAA is agreeing to the change of process so F/As and B first can apply, the ( FAAA). should be able to have a say in the process.In past years there was an appeal process. Now there is nothing.Its not management who have to work with some of them day in day out. They only have the occassional meeting over the occassional issue or once a year KPIs.

This situation cannot continue. as stated in someones earlier post how is it a F/A isnt good enough for B First yet may well be selected for CSM. Guardian - What is the FAAA doing about this absurd situation???.



God help us all if you dont:eek:

[left 4 primary]

To everyone,
I would like to offer a sincere apology for the cowardly unprovoked attack on a colleague, It's not an excuse, but I was pretty drunk at the time when I wrote it.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone and I've ammended the previous post. No names, no pack drill.

I had drinks with him when he first got the coat, and I got a different version of events from him about what actually happened, but several years have passed and my memory is obviously not as reliable as it use to be.

In future ,I'll keep my mouth shut unless I can add something constructive to this forum.

Once again....Sorry

[nite walker]

I have to laugh L4 Primary,
at first i thought you were doing the right thing like surfside 6, then you couldnt help yourself.you had to have a dig. I do know the person and i have heard him defend himself several times at drinks in LAX and never did his story sound like yours.

I guess i defend the bloke cos I have flown with him and he is good to the crew.He lets you get on with the job and comes down the back to give a hand which too few do these days.I also have heard the story told several time - the same story. I know its more fun to believe a rumour.
Its obvious you dont like him for whatever reason, but if you are apologising you dont try to substantiate that somehow you were in fact speaking the truth. I suggest you have a chat to him face to face to get the story clear from him so you dont slander him on here, maybe you could tell him you mighthave got it wrong on here.im sure hell be amused.

Fact, the guy didnt date the Tamil, nor did he invite her to footy games,
Surfside thanks for showing L4Primary what a retraction is.

Now pheeeeew back to the EBA

[left 4 primary]

I swear on a stack of bibles what I said is the truth. I had a few coldies with him around 2001, after all the controversy had had blown over,you remember his controversial article in the Ex-Syd magazine and the firey e-mail he posted out against the luddites. I openly asked him what was going on.

Why can't you accept what I've said? as the truth.

[lowerlobe]

Wow...We are really getting into some heavy navel gazing here.....

As was posted earlier....who ever Winnie selected for the job is part of history and can't be turned back whether you like them or not.

Anyway,as long as everybody is happy and no one has any hurt feelings let's get back to the EBA....

Pegasus,Guardian,Eden or anyone with an alpha numeric id.

What do you think the union can do to improve the selection process for CSM and CSS?

[sydney s/h]

Why all the bagging of people who work on the BOS desk?

In SH you have to already be a CSM to work there so there is no "promotion" as such.

And i'm not sure what the LH BOS people do but in SH they are a great team of guys and girls who do nothing but help the crew - infact they do far more than the CCTM/CCM's!!

I know i have called them on occasion and they are great!

[lowerlobe]

sydney s/h...

In Sydney L/H the BOS desk is either a step ladder for your aspirations or one of the location's for the fear of flying club....

IN S/H what is the selection process for CSM?

[hawke eye]

Hi Syd S Haul, I wasnt bagging anyone who does the BOS desk, dont get me wrong as you said a lot of them do a great job.
The last CSM promotion , it was noticed five of the
(CSS) who were successful had regularly worked on the BOS desk.
Im sure it does give the BOS person an advantage but what about those that didnt know it was an advantage to work on it, do you have to be good behind a desk and handling office politics to be good / capable in the air?
Some might commute or have responsibilities caring for loved ones( elderly/ children) and cant commit to the BOS desk. Not knocking the BOS or the desk but surely a better - level/ transparent system could be devised. With 80 required for the CSM position obviously it will require other avenues of interview processes to be explored as im sure they havent had 80 different (CSS) on the BOS desk since the last upgrade.

L4Primary and nite walker, I can solve the issue for you.:) Im going to one of the upcoming FAAA EBA meetings, I know (mud)he is a union supporter, if hes not at the meeting I go to then when i next bump into him Ill ask him if he ever said to anyone that he dated tamil or socialised regularly with her.
I know him reasonably well (hence my earlier comments) and i feel comfortable enough to ask him so we can see what is the truth as you put it L4 Primary.
Oh one thing i know about the guy is he isnt a liar, ive yet to find out that he has ever been anything but honest with this sort of stuff. Ask the union officials, he supported MM and SR over whether he thought the last EBA had some issues. He put his principles before friendship loyalties, i had a few discussions / beers over why he did it. I was impressed and felt sorry for him his principles cost him some friendships. Some of the former officials didnt forgive him. He said an EBA and friendships should be seperate, some i guess didnt see it that way. I like him and i dont like seeing him cop any more, hes copped enough he didnt deserve.
I remember the luddite stuff.The luddite wrote in the FAAA publication. Yes he did criticise the Luddite, someone who was a folk hero to many and a good laugh. It turns out the folk hero took the london basing and the CSM job. I also remember the FAAA cautioning any of us in Long Haul from taking the basing.Ill let you be the judge of that one.:}
yes i know moving on..... back to the EBA:D

[Pegasus747]

Juat a couple of points...the Selection criteria cannot sit an an EBA as it is prohibited content by law.

Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal. Therefore no enforceable arrangements for selection can sit in an EBA under the current laws....SOrry to dissappoint everyone but thats just anotherr howard legacy.

It might interest crew to note that there have been 37 CSS that have worked on the BOS desk and in the last round, my information is that only 5 of the successful CSM applicants were from that group.

Furthermore, and dont shoot me for this please ...Short haul promote from Flight Attendant directly to CSM as they have no CSS position. And i certainly believe that a long Haul A/C or BFA is infinitely more experienced in a range of skillls than most short haul crew given the lengths of flights and scenarios we have to deal with.

Personally i would love to be in a position to ensure an open transparent process for all promotions but it doesnt exist anywhere that i know of

[Pegasus747]

oh and in relation to the CSM that was mates with The tamil tiger i can tell you from personal knowledge that when her marraige broke up she was a mess and the guy in question along with a number of of other caring crew took pity on her and made an effort to ensure she got included in a few outings with crew.

Can i say from a purely personal perspective it was a very decent thing to do

[hawke eye]

Peg
i stand corrected. thought it was the majority of CSMs who were successful had worked BOS, appreciate the correction and facts and apologise for my ignorance.:ok:
so now what is it we need to know or do to become a CSM???:ugh:
needless to say I have corrected my post

[Pegasus747]

Can i suggest that the reason union reps, and ppl that have worked on the ground in BOS or EP instructors or service policy have generally done well is because their exposure to the "business" (and i hate the term) is greater than those that have flying experience alone.

At the interview stage they are often able to construct responses to scenarios with a different perspective.

Also given that we are largely a remote workforce, those that select crew for promotion have had more time to spend with these individuals and have developed a "relationship" with them beyond that which other competitors for promotion have had.

Clearly from the stats that i have posted above though, it is not the only thing that counts as clearly on 5 of the last group had worked on BOS from my knowledge.

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus...Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal.

I did not know that was even suggested....

What is your position on the transfer list affecting CSM positions for those living and based in Sydney?

[left 4 primary]

Hawke eye,

They seem to favour the use of Hogan psychological profiling, so get to know it.

Scenarios, scenarios and more scenarios. As peg said the one of the advantages of working on the ground is that you get an insight on how events and incidents reflect and impact on the business.

The selection process definitely needs to be more transparent. Is there any truth to the rumour that the CTTM's weren't too happy with the quality of recent CSS applications and were ringing people up at home, suggesting that they should apply?

If that is the case, they already know who they want for the job.

[left 4 primary]

I'm under the impression that EBA8 allows the provision of dedicated A380 crew and from what I gather, crew will have a 2 year window to decide which fleet they would like to be permanently on, 747 or A380.

My question is ,does anyone know how many A380's will we be operating in the next 2 years? What are number of crew that they are looking for?

Can you still nominate to operate on the A380, if for instance you are based in BNE, and there are limited or possibly no A380 flying from that base? Does it mean transferring to Sydney if you want to fly on the A380?

Do you think that there will be any chance of base transfers being actioned in the near future?

[Pegasus747]

it would appear that A380 will only be based in Sydney and London at this stage...with the possibility of melbourne depending on schedule.. at this stage i dont think that have much of an idea where it will fly in all certainty and marketing has not confirmed anything.

i think its unlikely that it will fly out of brisbane but no one in CC management have a clue....

I wouldnt be applying for A380 on the basis of where they think it will fly .. remember any patterns that they release will have as much validity as the original melbourne base patterns...

The work rules for A380 mirror the london base just remember thats the world on that fleet and it is positioned to go head to head with SQ and EI

[DEFCON4]

Management has said from the outset that LHCC were too expensive to fly the A380.
EBA8 allows LHCC access to the A380 but on fairly unpalatable terms.You must accept that you will fly only the 380 and consequently its destinations.Initially these destinations will be LAX JNB LHR and possibly FRA.You can be rostered up to 240hrs.The right to vote for continuing after 17hrs in a delay situation is gone.
If you elect not to fly the blimp you will be restricted to regional flying.Here the slip formula will change...no 46 hr slip in the first three.This will apply to regional flying where the trips are less than 6 days in duration and the east west time change is less than three hours.Regional flying will cover HKG SIN MNL PEK BKK NRT Shanghai and Seoul.
You get to keep your wages but your Tand Cs have changed.You still have access to LHR but only on the A380.So you have choices but each has a sting in the tail.With regional flying you may lose slip time but will get to spend more time at home.Unless there is whole lot of paxing slip time will still be determined by flight frequency.
The real big losers here are the domestics.They pretty much go back to flying within Australia.
While the offshore bases will be 25% of the Australian Crew population they will not grow to 50%..which was likely before this EBA.
There will be more employment of Australians but on a "B"Scale.
There will be a whole lot of promotion within current ranks rather than offshore.
Increased mat leave and unlimited partime for all categories.
Management really wants this to get up...hence the sign on bonus.
Not many LHCC will want to fly the A380 under these conditions...restriction of destinations,extended tours of duty and more time away from home with 240 hour rosters.So it will be much cheaper to operate with "B" scale new hires
Other destinations which will retain the slip formula are HNL BOM and SFO.But these are end of line ports so it will have nil impact.
The alternative to this EBA is fairly bleak.Loss of more flying to the domestics,no access to new wide bodied technology(A380 787 etc.)a marked increase in the size of the offshore bases.In short LHCC would be starved of flying...more VRs offered to people who would have little choice but to accept.
So there are choices with this EBA where there would otherwise be none.
The biggest losers here are the domestics...they have been effectively dealt out of the game..Kharma some would say.
VRs will be offered on a regular basis over the life of this EBA.If you are close to or over 55 and have more than 20 years seniority it will more than likely be a no brainer to leave.
It allows many to leave at a time of their own choosing while still earning current and slightly increasing(3%)remuneration.
Death with dignity if you like.
So LHCC are stuck between a rock and a hard place.Either vote up the EBA with all its "catches" or disappear into oblivion.......quickly

[nite walker]

Can anyone explain how the new regional slipping formula will work in simple terms.
Does this mean we could go to Beijing have 24 hrs, then operate to melbourne have 12 hours and operate to sin and have 14hrs then back to syd via mel or bne probably. i did the sums on paper and it seems it could be done. it equals 50 hours which is the new formula.

I looked up the min rests on night and day regional trips in the pattern book. They were either 20 hrs or 12 hrs.

It might look ok in isolation but when you have just had an africa and are still jet lagged or the hotel room you are given was sub standard (does that happen):uhoh: i think it is a different matter.
My understanding is short haul couldnt cope with those sort of short/min slips. How will we when we throw some of our long range trips onto the roster. we will know all about jet lag then.

i think this regional flying slip formula may be just possible if we were only flying regional but that wont be the case.

Your thoughts please Pegasus and anyone else who has a handle on this thing.

Me thinks the eba 8 regional flying formula could be the issue which causes everyone to take pause. S Haul feel free to comment on this issue your experience and feedback is important.

[packrat]

All in all not a bad partime job.
You just have to decide whether you want to fly longhaul on the big mama or fly regional and spend a lot more time at home.
What about long range and transport on this big sucker...will they remain?

[whatever6719]

Defcon
You probably are sincere in your post about "domestics being the losers" and not just trying to wind us up. I dont know how you think we "lose" by soley flying within Australia. Thats the thing I find a little hard to stomach sometimes when you lh crew assume anything less than 14 plus hours on the one flight is somehow not worthy and beneath you. Even Peg747 sprouted something before about lh cc being "infinitely more experienced in a range of skills than most short haul crew given the length of flights and scenarios blah blah blah" Honestly, at that point, i thought id heard it all. Not to take anything away from lh at all but im sure even you have to appreciate the different range of scenarios we at short haul come across when we do 4 leg days (which include 4 boardings/demos/services/the various checks and procedures we have to follow, etc etc). If that doesnt expose a flight attendant to a huge array of scenarios and test their skills then nothing would. And this can be repeated a numer of times a week if that flight attendant chooses to bid for them.
I really do not want to turn this into a boring slanging match between sh and lh because its been done to death. Im only just trying to bring just a little bit of balance cause i think its needed here. Ive said it before in earlier posts that im glad lh are getting back something that has been theirs in the past. It is just and right. But can we just show a little respect
to each other cause we all know how quickly things can change in this company.
Anyway, rant over, happy flying to all!

[samford]

Night Walker - I have to agree with you. The regional patterns we have had over the time in sh have been a little hard to stomach at times. I must admit lately they don't seem so bad, and I think alot has to do with some of the flying already returning to long haul.

Heres an example of a trip I released from my line:

SYD/ADL/SIN - 14 hrs rest,
SIN/PER/SIN 13 hrs rest,
SIN/PER, 15hrs rest,
PER/DRW, 11hrs rest,
DRW/SYD (BOC).

I'm fortunate enough to not have to to regional flying, why would I for 4.98/hr? So, I support that flying going back to where it should have been all this time. I do feel for the casuals, they are not all bad you guys and I hope some of them get a chance in this new set up, should it be voted up.

[lowerlobe]

Pegasus…

Why do you keep dodging my questions and then when you do,you answer it like a politician and talk about something else.

The CSM and CSS selection process is one that affects every crew member wanting to
better themselves and is something that should be closely looked at by the FAAA.

It has been said here that one of the problems is that candidates for CSM do not necessarily have to have spent time in Y/C as a CSS.In fact the company wants them to be able to sourced from BFA crew.

It has also been noted that the base transfer list effectively discriminates against those crew who cannot for a variety of reasons move to another Capital city.

This is a reality because the high number of CSM’s on the transfer list from Melbourne and Brisbane.

Here are some of your quotes… “The only selection process that would be completely impartial would be one that Qantas management have no part in”

….Not so.

Why couldn’t the company include managers from other sections of the company such as Freight,Engineering,Technical Crew in the interview process …in fact from anywhere within the company so that Cabin Crew management cannot EASILY exercise their well known cronyistic methods?????

Pegasus also aid…. “I cannot think of a selection process that any organisation would agree to that would essentially allow crew to select those suitable for promotion”

….It was never suggested that fellow crew pick the new CSM’s.Only that a new candidate would be required to work as a CSS in Y/C for a period say of at leats 6 months.If the company values their current on board managers then they should be able to rely on their managers assessments and take them into account when evaluating candidates.

This also has the benefit of testing the sincerity of crew wanting the job.IF they really want the job then they should have no problem working as a CSS in Y/C for a set time.

Pegasus said… “Anything that stops the company from directly appointing an outside contractor or labour hire person to a position is illegal”


…Pegasus, Can you show me where this was ever suggested? Or is this another attempt to divert attention away from the questions?

Finally Pegasus said… “the Selection criteria cannot sit an an EBA as it is prohibited content by law”

If anything to do with the CSM selection process is illegal under the EBA negotiations why then is this included in the EBA…

“Flight Attendants / BFA with four years service will be able to apply for CSM positions”

Apparently the company does not use the same rule book that you are using Pegasus….or you are using the wrong one yourself…

IF the company can include that in the EBA then what is stopping the FAAA from including some other criteria in the CSM selection process…..

The transfer list for CSM’s wanting to come back is one that the previous union included and therefore can also be removed or amended by this union.

This will help those in Sydney who want to apply for the position of CSM but cannot move to Melbourne,Brisbane or Wagga Wagga.

[surfside6]

1.Lobey you are becoming more irrelevant by the day
2.Nite Walker...the scenario you suggest will never exist.There will be no mix and match with flying...you will either be on the A380 or you will be regional...not both

[lowerlobe]

Lobey you are becoming more irrelevant by the day

surfside6..........There is nothing irrelevant about these questions to someone who wants to be a CSM and doesn't want to take ST to a Footy match....

Surfside ..tell me what is irrelevant about my questions?

To put it simply why not have someone like Pegasus answer the questions....

Simple really and not irrelevant at all .......unless they don't want to answer the questions....

[surfside6]

Why in particular do you want Peg747 to answer your non question?You are starting to sound like a bunny boiler.
Some years ago QF obtained the services of Keane and Associates to oversee the CSM selection process...the results were outstanding.QF mangement had no input whatsoever.Totally transparent. Unforunately it was expensive so it came to an end.

[Flugbegleiter]

The real big losers here are the domestics.They pretty much go back to flying within Australia.

But that's what domestic crew were always supposed to do. Sure, some like doing some international flying, but the majority of short haul crew I know went to shorthaul or work in shorthaul because they don't want to do longer international flying. My understanding is that shorthaul crew can still transfer to longhaul if they want to do the international stuff, so they are not really losing out at all. And if shorthaul is downsized, then I'm sure that is what will happen with a lot of crew. I don't imagine that our EBA excludes them from our current pay and conditions, unlike their EBA which did in fact exclude us from their band payments...

[lowerlobe]

Originally posted by Surfside...

Why in particular do you want Peg747 to answer your non question?You are starting to sound like a bunny boiler.

Some years ago QF obtained the services of Keane and Associates to oversee the CSM selection process...the results were outstanding.QF mangement had no input whatsoever.Totally transparent. Unforunately it was expensive so it came to an end.

Firstly,it's not a non question surfside as it is very relevant to anyone who wants to be a CSM.

It's fairly obvious who Pegasus represents and therefore why my question is directed to him....

Secondly,I have never suggested an external firm for the selection process.Only you and Pegasus seem to be coming up with that and as we all know how tight the company is is totally irrelevant.

Pegasus was online a while ago and again has ignored the questions.

IF someone does not choose to answer a question it is usually because they either do not know the answer or do not care to give the answer....you can draw your own conclusions...

[surfside6]

Peg Probably doesnt answer your questions because you are vexatious.
You ask a question but are never satisfied with the answer.Much like a small child who asks "why" ad nauseum.
Your arguments are neither cogent or deductive.You derive most of your information from the tabloids.You love playing the devils advocate for its own sake.In general you contribute very little.You have never provided a definitive solution for any thing...and when someone does provide a solution you are critical of it
Let me ask you a question...Is the EBA a good deal?...if not ...why not?

[Big Barrels]

The company has been happily telling people that the 380 will do LA to start with, then eventually LHR. FRA and JNB are still a long way off. It was actually stated by somebody who would know recently that up to 50% of the LA flying will be done by the 380 within 3 years.

If the remaining LA flying goes to the AKL base, then I guess the Long Range flying will be almost unheard of for the majority of crew.

As for accepting a 'B' scale, is that an admission the current crew are overpaid?

[DEFCON4]

No..it is not an admission that LHCC are overpaid.It is a pragmatic and necessary negotiating device that allows the continuance of the LongHaul division and a reduction in costs for Qantas.
A number of Airlines have "B"scales for their pilots and CC.It is an effective tool for overcoming what may otherwis be an impasse to resolution.
LongRange applies to SFO..I dont envisage traffic growth sufficient to warrant the deployment of an A380 to this destination.
The generation of Ultra Long Range is not that far away....LongRange would also apply to these aircraft

[Big Barrels]

So assuming a large proportion of LA flying goes to AKL and 380 crew, we should celebrate that San Fran is still available?

How hard will it be to get to SFO if this eventuates? I imagine you would have to be in the top 5% to get there. Hardly positive information for the majority of crew.

Then again, with the newer generation of ultra long range aircraft, what is the guarantee that LHCC will fly them? The same guarantee that also applies to the 380? What will stop QF from using the same tactic with the 787 as with the 380 in terms of using the separate crewing company?

The long range pay is pretty much dead and buried for most I suspect with this agreement. So in truth an effective pay cut that starts to get worse the longer it goes after 2 years down the track.

[cartexchange]

this is not looking good!
go to the 380 ( not good)
stay in mainfleet ( just as bad)

any comments from someone with an alpha numeric name!

[left 4 primary]

I was looking forward to operating on the A380, but now I'm not too sure.

Why can't we do what we do now and continue to cross-crew? I know that we will have an A scale, and others on a B scale on the same plane, but don't we effectively do that now with the current O/S bases anyhow?

I've never considered that EBA8 could result in a pay cut, the 3% increase would not offset the loss of the long-range allowance.

Five years is really such a short time when you fly. Have you considered EBA9?

The possible introduction of a "C" scale rate of pay.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Mam's are already at that stage.

Peg,Guardian , do we have to accept EBA8 as a whole? if we don't ratify the agreement is there still an opportunity to go back to the table and renegotiate, or is it a take it or leave it approach?

If we decide not to go with it, does EBA7 continue on until there is a new proposal placed on the table?

Where do we stand?

[lowerlobe]

Surfside…..

It’s good to see that you have purchased a thesaurus.I would suggest however that you look up the word ‘Tautology’ and then look at your posts.

I honestly cannot see why anything I have said could cause you to claim I am vexatious.If you don't receive an answer from someone do you just walk away?

I assume the union represents those who want to apply for CSM and CSS?

Instead of any answer’s though you instead ask a question…….I’m not interested in your replies as I would like one of the reps here for an answer and surfside next time try not to lower yourself to name calling again as it is becoming repetitive and tiresome.

I have asked a few questions which neither Pegasus,Guardian or Eden have answered.

Can you show where any of you have answered either of the following questions…

1:What do you think about a requirement for potential CSM applicants to have worked for a mandatory period as a CSS in Y/C?

2:What do you think about the discriminatory effect of the transfer list on those in Sydney who cannot for a variety of reasons move to Melbourne or any other base in Australia for that fact.

3:Pegasus said that it was illegal for any promotion or selection criteria to be included in the EBA document.

Why then did the company include the clause that BFA crew could apply for CSM in this latest EBA?

Pegasus and Co. are doing their best to ignore these questions and I can only assume it is because they don’t have any answer’s.

[Pegasus747]

all answers are being given to FAAA members at the meetings and in email responses.

I dont believe the FAAA has any obligation to provide information to non members or interested observers, or certainly to anonymous forums.

Any MEMBER that contacts the FAAA gets a response.

Thats the case.... as for CSM selection my personal view is that i liked it when it was done by outside consultants. However we are not the public service and there are no appeal mechanisms.

Anyone that works in other than the Cabin crew shetered workshop would know that the world has chanaged and the boss gived the jobs to the people they like and think are competent. And the other workers whinge about the new bosses and how incompetent they are and how "they" or others could do a better job.

THE FAAA and flight attendants dont have control of promotions and never will even if we wanted to ..so lets move on

[Pegasus747]

As for EBA its a package...there are bits that the company needs/wants ..those are generally the things we dont like

Then there are the bits that we want and the company doesnt like but agrees to as part of the overall package.

Once an in principle agreement is reached then you vote YES or NO.

Bear in mind that this is in my view a comprehensive agreement and provides considerably more job protection than we have now.

If the EBA is voted down, then in January the SHort Haul Union will start its negotiations with Qantas. If there is anything left after that then i am sure we will talk to Qantas again and try and get something.

However it will not look like what this inprinciple agreement looks like. Nor will it have any of its protections and growth principles nor access to new aircraft.

I would suggest that at best you could hope for a transfer to Short Haul or ask Maurice Alexander for a job

[left 4 primary]

Thanks Peg,

I'll make sure that I get to one of the FAAA meetings.

[lowerlobe]

I posted this....
:Pegasus said that it was illegal for any promotion or selection criteria to be included in the EBA document.

Why then did the company include the clause that BFA crew could apply for CSM in this latest EBA?[QUOTE]

Then Pegasus posted this....

[QUOTE]THE FAAA and flight attendants dont have control of promotions and never will even if we wanted to ..so lets move on

My answer to that is.......I thought so....

Pegasus and Co. are doing their best to ignore these questions and I can only assume it is because they don’t have any answer’s.

[surfside6]

There you go Lobey you have your answers..happy now?
Me suggesting you are vexatious(onlooker) is not name calling...but both an informed opinion and a statement of fact.
You are now outside the barbed wire fence and as such your questions are irrelevant to your circumstance ...enjoy your retirement....I know we will.
As both Pegasus and Defcon 4 have said....vote up the EBA or face oblivion.
Not that hard to make a choice really.There are parts of the EBA I am not happy with...but...there are other parts I am happy about.Negotiating is all about compromise.....the consensus so far amongst colleagues is that they are prepared to compromise and survive.Most LHCC dont want to fly that French monstrousity.There are a large number of 744s that still have plenty of cycles left in them....they have to go somewhere.Il Duce has stated that mainline will have a new destination every year for the next ten years.
There is growth to accommodate any loss of other destinations...South America for example will be a destination sometime next year

[lowerlobe]

Surfside....I think you need to see an optometrist..There must be one in Mascot ....

Originally posted by Surfside...."There you go Lobey you have your answers..happy now?"

Surfside.....WHAT ANSWERS??????

Here is Pegasus' post..
all answers are being given to FAAA members at the meetings and in email responses.

I dont believe the FAAA has any obligation to provide information to non members or interested observers, or certainly to anonymous forums.

Surfside....If you put down the thesaurus for a minute and read my post there were 3 questions.....and not one of them was answered....and to be honest I didn't expect them to be because you really don't want anyone to know the answer's.

So my response was....I thought so...

[prunezeuss]

You are personna non grata Lobey.
Deal with it.
No one answers your questions because you and your questions are no longer relevant

[surfside6]

Post 640 .....second line.
You are not an FAAA member but rather an observer and are therefore not entitled to answers.If you would like to volunteer to work in the FAAA office,I am sure with your expertise and enquiring mind they find something for you to do.Then you could have ALL your questions answered every day.

[RedTBar]

well I'm crew and I want some answers.Lobey raises some good questions and one of them is something I want an answer to.
What about the transfer list boys?
What have you got to scared of by answering ?
With the blimp it looks like thee company got what it wanted because there won't be many l/h crew applying for that with the conditions and that they have to stay there for 2 years.Why can't we have cross crewing?No wonder Dixon was so happy about this deal with the union.

This eba does devalue our jobs and if anyone say's it doesn't their kidding themselves.This gives us all a used by date of about 5 years unless time at home and money is not a problem.But after what s/h did to us is there anything else we could do?
This eba is like a iceberg,you can see a bit of it but there is a lot more under the surface.

[Pegasus747]

Red T bar,

If you are an FAAA member ring the office thats what you pay your fees for??? if you are waiting for an FAAA official to post in an anonymous forum something that a member is entitled to know then the member can contact the FAAA

fond regards ( if of course you are an FAAA member)

It might interest people to know that most of the former senior FAAA team resigned as FAAA members after losing election last time. Such was their philosophical attachment to crew and the union movement.

hyprocracy i say

[RedTBar]

Peg,my question has not got a thing to do with the eba and is not a thing of national security.I don't think the world will stop if you tell us what you think.
I have talked to a union person about this and got the impression that he couldn't care less.His answer was sort of live with it.
Do you think the system of transfers is fair.Yes or NO?
If you think it should be changed then we can talk about it at the meetings but I have the feeling that the meetings will be taken up with the eba.

[packrat]

If you want an answer to your Question make a phone call or send an email.(to the FAAA)Thats what I do and I usually get an answer in a day or two.You could be anybody..in particular a non union crewmember looking fo a freebie.

[RedTBar]

Like I said packrat I did ask someone from the union before sign on and all I got was "well thats the way it is and it wouldn't be fair to those in the bases who want to transfer to sydney"
What are you going on about with a freebie?what the hell is a freebie?I wanted a yes or no answer.
I could ring like you said but I don't have all day to wait for someone to ring me back.You might no mind waiting a day or 2 but I have better things to do.
If you don't want to talk on pprune what is the point of having this thread.
Can someone start a thread about the weather:yuk:
Lobey is right the usuals don't want anything asked because they don't want the truth out.
I was not going to tell this but after our great union reps cannot even an answer a yes or no question but a mate of mine that took the last package told me something which just about sums these guys up.After he took the package he had a reason to call the union and was told that he should ring the company and ask them as he was no longer a union member.
That was after 25 years of loyal and financial membership.

[left 4 primary]

Peg, when I asked what would happen if the EBA was rejected you replied,

If the EBA is voted down, then in January the SHort Haul Union will start its negotiations with Qantas. If there is anything left after that then i am sure we will talk to Qantas again and try and get something.


Surely this is a golden opportunity for both unions to join forces . If we can do this we all stand a greater chance of getting a better deal for all of us.

The company have been playing both sides against each other, to them it's like watching 2 dogs fighting over a bone, Divide and conquer. They must be laughing at us .

If we can stand united, we could all be winners.

[nite walker]

It does take a few days to digest alot of the info.

The big question is how much of the flying will the 20 A380s take ?
at least 10 will most likely do the states as the company has been talking about increasing capacity to strengthen our market share. If we have 10 A380s going to the states it means we wont be on them, not if its on equivalent of the london base condittions.

Yes we have appeared to have capured the flying on he 787 -regional. I can imagine what some of the pattens might look like.

So in the end we have to decide is only 20% of us on the A380 and plenty of 787 on arduous regional patterns a good deal?

Still thinking hard about it.
I was informed about a site which has alternative views and food for thought. add ******** then dot com after the following.

TUF07.

Id be interested to hear your thoughts.
I think Pegasus is right. whoever he/she is, its not for a rep to try and sell an eba on here its really better for us to discuss it and make others aware of any potential pitfalls and discuss the good, the bad and the ugly.:confused:

[whatever6719]

Here Here L4P!!
Could you imagine how different it would be if we were to join forces and set aside some of the past differences, grievances, etc.
Of course the company will try God knows what to try and circumvent the impact of a united workforce, but at least we would be a ****load stronger.
But as usual, its probably in the too hard basket and the company will get what it wants at all of our expense.

[DEFCON4]

The EBA in principle has been negotiated by experts and been hammered out out over months of hard work research and careful thought.
Do you honestly think that the people responsible for this outcome would provide you with the second best option.?
If this gets voted down do you honestly think QF management will say "Oh gosh the crew arent happy, maybe we should have a rethink chaps."?
You naive amateurs...go to the meetings and get some information and then make an informed decision.I doubt anyone in the forum(apart from Guardian,Eden and Peg747)have even seen the bloody document.
Or as one twit said you havent "got time to wait around all day for an answer"
This is your job and your flying future...give it some serious informed thought for more than a nano second.
Forget about trying to forge some sort of allegiance with the Domestics...they are yesterdays toast.
Trying to amalgamate with them has been tried and failed...miserably.
Their last EBA illustrates perfectly how inept they are at negotiating and how indifferent they are to our welfare.
Wake up you Totos...this is not Kansas

[Guardian1]

I could not have summed it up better defcon:-)

People like you give me hope and restore my faith in humanity.

The level of naivety is extraordinary...... and if you label it for what it is, one is labelled arrogant.

[Eden99]

I agree guys, you gotta shake your head in disbelief at some of the stuff that is posted here.

Mijatov, Reed etc have been officials for years...... they know their stuff inside out...they are supported by Industrial Officers and specialist lawyers and they are being second-guessed and criticised by some in here who don't have a clue.

It must be galling and disheartening to work your guts out as they have , to achieve a great outcome and then have amateurs speaking with "such authority" on matters about which they are way out of their depth.

I break out in laughter when people "demand" answers on here from posters who they assume are FAAA officials....... as DEFCON said, you would think they would ring the FAAA Office or attend a bloody meeting!!! LOL

And to our mate RedT bar, it doesn't take 1 or 2 days to get an answer from the FAAA....... most calls are taken immediately and all calls are returned on the day...if Will Ash the FAAA staff member who takes queries happens to be busy.

But alas, fiction posted on here is more believable by some, than fact.

To MM, SR etc...i would not do their job in a million years, dealing with dummies would drive me insane.:)

[hawke eye]

Thats right we havent seen the document, All we have had is our FAAA officials tell us how good it is.

No offence but we have had previous officials tell us the same thing.

It was the current officials who so roundly criticised former officials for exactly the same thing and now they wonder why we are skeptical when we havent seen the document.
The former officials did release their document before the last eba. I think MM had something to do with that.
We need the document not just a biased viewpoint. As they say the devil is in the detail. When do we see the document?

By the way its these sort of discussions on here which is what eba discussion is all about. Guardian with due respect i dont think any on here pretend to be an expert. While that is said defcon i wouldnt call our flight attendant union officials expert either. Like us they are professional flight attendants having a go doing their best, they ae NOT experts and we have found out in the past that the Company is. Remember hindsight wont help us if we havent covered all the loop holes.

There is no such hing as a stupid question. There is such a thing as arrogance for those who cant look at alternatives or admit they may have made a slight error and consider the possibilty because of their own ego.

Imagine how many different historical battles might have had different outcomes because a leader realised an error of judgement in the middle of a battle and corrected it.
Im not saying one has been made here but i would feel comfortable if we had that sort of open minded.flexibility and intellect in our FAAA leadership. lets hope we have.
With continued references to former officials it appears his migh be more about ego rather than substance.

[Eden99]

Generally hawkeye, i don't disagree about much of what you have just said.

I attended todays FAAA meeting...... MM and SR are cabin crew.... but they are also very experienced in terms of industrial issues.

MM has done 7 EBA's and SR 2. I know the current FAAA officials fairly well, MM has had more EBA experience than many Industrial Officers in most unions.

Reed and Mijatov have clearly vast and detailed industrial knowledge, way above a professional flight attendant who just flies. Perhaps i know much more about them than you...... i also know that QF regards them as very competent.

What is also a matter of fact that the FAAA under MM has delivered two of our best EBA's ( 7 and now 8).

At todays meeting it was clearly stated that the EBA document will be available shortly. The FAAA wants to brief people in detail , rather than waiting before the actual document is completed by the FAAA and QF.

Im certain that giving a document that is more than 100 pages , before actually explaining the changes isn't going to be beneficial to the vast majority of crew, who often don't even read a single page newsletter.

[Big Barrels]

Lowerlobe, if you are not part of the company, not a financial member of the union, what gives you the right to waste the time of the union officials we all contribute to in order to ask your never ending questions? Your posts over the years have always been so critical of everything the union does.

They have a few more serious issues to address rather than those of some former disgruntled flight attendent who is not part of the company any more.

There are some bigger issues here well above who and how people get promoted to CSM. Most out on the line do not have such a major issue with it at the moment compared to lots of other things we have to deal with (ie. EBA's, our futures).

[skychild]

Apparently what is happening is the new company that Qantas have developed (Qantas Cabin Crew Australia) will be recruiting for the A380 and all employed will be A380 crew ONLY working on common law contracts. Salries and conditions well below what longhaul crew are on now.

[Going Boeing]

The Tech crew for the first four aircraft have their slots and will start training early 08 - pay and conditions are yet to be agreed. LH Tech crew Certified Agreement provides for the aircraft being flown for up to 3 months before any action can be taken to force an agreement. I believe that the successful conclusion of the LH Cabin Crew EBA means that they will be crewing the Dugong. As the first four aircraft will do nothing but LAX trips, all I can say is - BORING.

[DEFCON4]

Current LHCC will have access to the A380 on their current renumeration.They will have two years to make up their minds about staying on it permanently.Anyone after that who applies to work on ot will not have that choice.You will have a mix of new hires and current crew each on different payscales.ie "A"Scale current crew."B"Scale new hires.Rosters can be built up to 240 hrs and the right to vote on duties over 17hrs in unplanned circumstances will not apply.QF is to treat this "division"separately for rostering purposes.
International flying will be divided between the elite fleet(A380) and regional flying which will be anything within a 3 hour time change east or west of Sydney.Destinations like HNL and BOM will make up a much smaller third division.
The new hires on the "B"scale will fly exclusively on the A380.Promotion for new hires to the Onboard Manager position will see them receive remuneration similar to their "A"scale counterparts.
Crew complements has not yet been finalized but it seems likely to be either 23/24 including 1CSM and 2 CSS.
It will have 4 classes..P/C J/C Premium Y/C and Y/C and carry around 550 pax.
If the EBA is not voted up most of the above will be void.

[lowerlobe]

skychild ...

Your not far off the mark as there won't be many current L/H crew who will want to fly the 380.

There are always some who want to be the first to have the lastest car and in this case fly the latest aircraft BUT.......

Although their pay will be protected the hours and whatever else is in the contract will be the same as the 'B' scale crew.Most will find it very unappealing.

[lowerlobe]

u5mj...

Apparently the new recruits will receive allowances as current L/h crew do.For the rest of the deal you will have to ring the FAAA or the company when they advertise.

I take it you are S/H and if so what is the reaction amongst S/H crew to the L/H EBA?

[S/H 737]

Could not agree more, Short Haul Union can be at times inempt impotent and without much spine, forget about them joining long haul look what they did to long haul in last eba's. I would be interested to hear from the short haul union on this post in reply to Long Hauls EBA

[S/H 737]

I'm not even a member of the long haul union and i get replys on the same day from your union ,try getting that response from the short haul union, You long haulers dont know how lucky you are having Mitchatov,Reed ,Lam on your side, try borrowing Short Haul union officials to do your negotiating then you will really have something to complain about !!!

[regionalguy]

I'm a member of the short haul division not for short haul but a member nonetheless and they have looked after me every time I've contacted them. I know of quite a few crew (not just my airline) who have needed representation and got it to complete satisfaction.

I've read just like everyone else, the LH v SH arguments on here and everyone has a different opinion. Personally, I think SH have done a great job looking after SH and all of us in the past and I'm sure they'll keep on doing that. I have faith in my union representatives and I'm not embarrased, just like most on here, to say so.

I dont understand any argument that says two unions are better than one. One union will always be stronger.

Cheers, just my thoughts.

PS: S/H 737 you should probably change your log in before posting to agree with yourself ! :ok:

[lowerlobe]

You long haulers dont know how lucky you are having Mitchatov,Reed ,Lam on your side

It's always good to see something that makes you laugh.....

Are you guy's in the bunker having a slow day....:E

Next time when you are after another supporter pick a name without a number after it and as regional guy said sign out and use another name before you sign in again....especially if you are going to agree with yourself....what a crack up...

Pegasus ...is that you...if it is then it's the second time you have been caught out...:)

[lowerlobe]

It looks like the damage control official in the bunker has deleted the incriminating post ......:8

lowerlobe 707......787

[Flugbegleiter]

Sorry Defcon, I am not trying to pick on you but there are a few points in your previous post which were not quite correct:

Current LHCC will have access to the A380 on their current renumeration.

Well, that's not entirely true. If current L/H crew choose to work on the A380, they will be working under the pay and conditions offered to the new starters. On top of this, they will be payed a "top-up" amount each pay, to try to keep their pay in line with their current pay. Note that working on the A380 would mean you do not have access to the bid system and you *may* be required to work up to 240 hours (though that is unlikely during the start-up phase). This may be an appealing option to some, and not so appealing to others, but at least you have a choice.

International flying will be divided between the elite fleet(A380) and regional flying which will be anything within a 3 hour time change east or west of Sydney.Destinations like HNL and BOM will make up a much smaller third division.

That's not quite correct. There will really be two major divisions as far as flying goes:

1. A380 crew
2. All other international flying

The A380 crew will ONLY fly on the A380. The other group will fly on all other international aircraft, whether it's the 747, A330, 787 or any other new wide-bodied aircraft flown on international routes. That's where I would personally prefer to stay. 747s will still be flying long-range sectors for many years yet, probably with some new and interesting destinations, too! There is no group which does ONLY regional flying. Either you fly on A380s or you fly on the rest of the fleet.

The new hires on the "B"scale will fly exclusively on the A380.

Also not correct. Some of the new starters on the B scale will fly on the A380 and others will fly on the rest of the fleet along side us, the current crew.

re: A380. It will have 4 classes..P/C J/C Premium Y/C and Y/C and carry around 550 pax.

Qantas has announced the A380 will carry 450 pax (surprising, huh?)

If the EBA is not voted up most of the above will be void.

Yeah, that would be very dangerous... Now that I have a lot more facts, I know what I will be voting.

[Flugbegleiter]

Do you well informed people know if the 'B' scale will recieve allowances whilst in slip ports? That would be a great bennefit and an ability to bump up the base wage....!

Yep, all Oz-based L/H crew will get the same allowances :-) On top of that, you will get overtime on sectors over 12 hours, which is another way to prop-up your pay. There is also another allowance you will get, based on the number of hours of the trip.

[DEFCON4]

Where did you derive your information?
QF will not have 4 classes and 450 pax...thats an absolute waste of a resource.
Borghetti, at a stategy,indicated 550 as have numerous media sources
The A380 will have A and B scale crew...Current and new hires.Current crew have been essentially red circled as far remuneration is concerned.
"Access to the A380 with salary protection for current crew"....quote from the FAAA website
No one has mentioned that the A380 crew will have allocated rosters.ie no bid system.
The A380 will have its own slipping formula,regional(trips6 days or less) will have its own slipping formula,and the remaining destiantions will have another slipping formula.Three divisions based on slipping formula
What is the definitive source of your information?
Can you quote directly from the EBA document?
I have no problem with being corrected as long as the information comes from a reliable source.

[prunezeuss]

If you take out all the Destinations the A380 will service what do you have left? (currently)North/South flying(regional)..which the domestics have been doing.Then there are 3 other destiantions HNL SFO and BOM.
If you factor in the Offshore bases (LHR,AKL,BKK)which will comprise 25% of the total Australian and therefore will grow...Where will the new hires go?Apart from the A380 all the other flying is covered.So its a safe bet that they will fly the A380(almost)exclusively.
The new guys may not have a bid system on the A380 but current crew will.
Fluglegbiter...a lot of your assertions are only suppositions and semantic nitpicking.
Show me the source of the information you are sprouting as gospel.
Where Can I access it?

[surfside6]

The A380 has been made deliberately unattractive to current LHCC.
Yet the Chief Pilot has stated that he requires dedicated/experienced CSMs to crew the blimp for at least a year.
I have not heard that current crew wishing to work on the thing will not have a bid system ...someones telling porkies.

[Pegasus747]

A380 will have a fair share roster system.

The New crew that fly in the non A380 world ie all other flying will also not have a bid system.

other than A380 flying which is a separate group completely, when current crew and new starts fly together, the exiting crew will bid for work on the current rules, the flying that is left over will then be fair shared with new crew.

No flights, slots or any other permutation will remove flying for new starters before current crew have bid for it based on seniority.

[GalleyHag]

DEFCON4

This is part of the A380 Press release issued on 24 July. You can view the entire release on the qantas website.

Introducing The Qantas A380 Latest News

Sydney, 24 July 2007

Qantas today unveiled the state-of-the-art interior and seating to be installed onboard its fleet of 20 Airbus A380 aircraft, which are scheduled for delivery from August 2008.

Qantas Executive General Manager John Borghetti said the airline's fleet would be configured with 450 seats - 14 in First, 72 in Business, 32 in its new Premium Economy cabin and 332 in Economy.

[roamingwolf]

pegasus
mate are you saying that if we apply for the a380 we will not have our roster system.
or is it only the new crew that dont.

[alpine57]

there is no bid system in the A380 group...but no one has to go over to that group if they dont wish.

i don't understand why people keep asking these questions on here and risk receiving wrong information.

Do as i did today, and go to an FAAA meeting.

[Flugbegleiter]

Where did you derive your information?
QF will not have 4 classes and 450 pax...thats an absolute waste of a resource.
Yes, I was really surprised to read that, too. But as mentioned in the above post, the QF A380 will be configured "with 450 seats - 14 in First, 72 in Business, 32 in its new Premium Economy cabin and 332 in Economy."
(Source: Qantas Press Release, Sydney, 24 July 2007 (http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2007/jul07/3618))
That said, if you look at the Qantas A380 info page on their website, they say they will have 501 seats - that appears to be old information, though.
As to the question of where I got the rest of my information, a lot of it came directly from the union meeting I attended today. I'd recommend every flight attendant go to one.
"Access to the A380 with salary protection for current crew"....quote from the FAAA website
No one has mentioned that the A380 crew will have allocated rosters.ie no bid system.
The salary protection is in the form of a generous top-up payment, but apart from that, if you choose to fly on the A380, it will be under the conditions that the new starters will be flying.
What is the definitive source of your information?
Can you quote directly from the EBA document?
No, because it has not been completely finalised yet, but I'd imagine we will all have copies within the next few weeks... at the latest. My source is all the information which has so far been released by the FAAA and the company, as well as the union meeting today. I am not making any assumptions or putting my own spin on it, just trying to clarify some points that I think a few crew may be confused about, or about which assumptions have been made.
I think this EBA is an excellent outcome for the position we currently find ourselves in. It's a shame that we have to go down this path, but there are not any viable alternatives. A few weeks ago, we were all expecting to be asked to work higher hours, etc. With this EBA, we keep almost all of our conditions, with just a few minor inconveniences (regional slipping formula, no voting for extension of multi-sector duty, etc). These really are pretty minor in the broad scheme. Imagine how great it will be to finally have some fresh faces among us and probably some new destinations. And for junior crew it will be great to finally get a little more choice for bidding.
I'm a Y/C flight attendant. I've been flying for 10 years. For the last few years I have been losing hope of having any kind of future in this job, but this EBA has finally made me feel like there is some hope for us - that WE won't have to go backwards. We are lucky we started when we did, so will get to benefit from our original conditions. Unfortunately, that's not the way things are any more for other airline crew (see Jetstar, Virgin, Tiger, etc). It sux, but it's the way it is.

[DEFCON4]

1.450 seats is not much more than we have now....unbelievable
2.A "Fair Share Roster System"for ALL new starts not just the A380
3.No Bid System for Anyone(?)on the A380
4.Generous top ups for existing crew?
Who in their right mind and is currently a full time LHCC member would want to work on the A380?.A brand new product and no one with experience to work on it...those poor passengers.
My apologies folks I was under the impression my information was 100%correct.
It was not my intention to mislead anyone.

[Pegasus747]

A380

From what i Understand the A380 will be very limited flying and destinations. Best "guess" until the actual routing is as published by Qantas marketing is some london via Singapore and LA flying.

Moving forward probably Hong Kong and some MOre LA..Sydney crew unlikely to go throught to LHR on A380 as from asia to London will likely be flown by London base as current.

No Seniority Bidding in A380 however crew will be able to have ability to express preferences via a fair share system. Maybe buddy bidding and type of trip. Qantas will not agree to senirority in A380..

Its brave new world.. My prediction is that within a couple of years over there even new crew will be asking for a seniority bid system lol

The company doesnt understand how important it is to crew, personally with three destinations it doesnt make a crap of difference to most crew but that will change over time i predict

[Flugbegleiter]

No worries, DEFCON4 :-) That's why I posted - I wasn't trying to be a turd ;-) The 747-300's already carry 450 pax (52J 398Y). But I guess that premium economy must take up more space.
I think there are people out there who will want to fly on the A380 just for a change and because it is new, etc. With the salary top-up, it makes it much more attractive, but that's only if you don't mind having a much higher divisor. With only 4 aircraft flying initially, though, I doubt anyone will be doing anything close to 240 hours.
As far as the union is concerned, the 787-900 will be our major vehicle for growth. QF has a stack of these on order and will use them to replace the 767 and A330 aircraft on international routes.
I'm a little disappointed that the A380 will not just be another aircraft we can fly on like 747s, a330, etc. I had been looking forward to it. But I am more happy that I finally feel like we will have some job security and growth in Aussie longhaul.

[Pegasus747]

the trouble with the A380 is that Qantas has so many options open to it on crewing.

It could give it to us as an additional aircraft but will not do so on 182.3 hours a roster nor on our current conditions.

It could just set up a new company to fly it, give it to short haul who do 280 a roster for 25% less money than us or even wet lease with Jetstar Intl crew in our uniforms at 304 hours a roster.

Unfortunaetly the FAAA was hamstrung by its own members who said "no more hours" and no substantial changes.

With those restrictions in mind this is a remarkable EBA outcome that still gives us jobs going forward and maintenance of key conditions.

[Big Barrels]

If you work more hours on the 380, are you working effectively for less pay per hour assuming they give you the same money you are on now? My company informant is adamant LA will be the first destination taking the majority of 380 flying followed by a single flight a day to LHR when the aircraft numbers increase.

How will the 787 be crewed? Again my company source has said it is their intention to go down the same path as that which the 380 going now (crewed by the new crewing company). In several years when these aircraft all arrive, where will that leave us.

:ugh:

[Pegasus747]

who is your company source???
You dont have to identify yourself but please identify the source. The Company at a level of management way above Cabin Crew Management have commiited that the 787 and all new wide bodied aircraft flown internatonally by qantas will be flown by the "mohicans"

Ths committment is in writing and all crew will have copies of the committments given in writing and signed by Lesley Grant on behalf of Qantas.

Of course i can understand that you might want to protect the source, but if you have any doubts at all about what i am saying call Lesley Grant yourself, or call Alison Webster or anyone on the FAAA negotiating Team.

Other than that you are spreading unveryfied Rumour.

I understand crew are paranoid generally about job security and the intention of Qantas Long Term, But i genuienely believe that the FAAA and the two top barristers they are using have got a very tight deal here

Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????

[Shlonghaul]

The Company at a level of management way above Cabin Crew Management have commiited that the 787 and all new wide bodied aircraft flown internatonally by qantas will be flown by the "mohicans"


Great!!......now I can write my first book and title it Last Of The Mohicans......ohhh damn someone beat me to it.... :E

[surfside6]

WE fly new bodied aircraft or we have access to them?
We have access to the A380,but look at the conditions.
Are/Will the conditions for the 787 the same as the A380?
How old is the oldest 744...OJA?
All these changes will be phased in with new A380.
What is the time frame for the delivery of all A380s?
When do the 787s start arriving?
Arent the first 15 787s earmarked for Jet*
The A380 is like a small pimple on my bum...I cant see it but I know its there because it is mildly irritating.

[Bad Hat Harry]

Initially I thought that this was a good deal given the cicumstances.
Now Im not so sure.
Bidding and seniority removed from the A380
The slip formula removed from regional flying
240 hour rosters
Extended tours of duty without the right to vote.
With Carmen regional flying could become a nightmare
Six day patterns with no slip formula...you would not have a day without being in uniform.
Sick leave will explode.
Without the safeguards we have in place now this is going to be a hard sell.
Now I understand the 3K sweetener.

[RedTBar]

I knew this was too good to be true and I should have seen the light when Dixon said this was a great document.
originally posted by pegasus:Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
pegasus this isn't a fairy tale pal this is life and Dixon has no intention of a happy ending for us.
how much else have you given away?we should have known the $3000 was a give away.
With 2 groups of cabin crew and one more expensive than the other how long will it be before the next vr package
I don't know about the last of the mohicans because this looks more like Custers last stand.

[Pegasus747]

Clearly none of you guys have been to any of the FAAA meetings. Once you have done that or at least had a conversation with the negotiating team you will be significantly better informed.

The EBA is a proposed document that you will get to vote on. If it is rejected thats democracy.

We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.

Under this EBA all new aircraft that come to long haul except for A380 will be flown under our conditions and on our salarys and on our bidding system. This EBA is complicated because it is so comprehensive.

The only way you will understand it is by attending FAAA meetings or talking to a members of the FAAA negotiating team until such time as you get the document and the attached letters from Qantas,(which will be well before you have to vote on the document)

Quite frankly if crew vote this EBA down then the long Haul Division will only have 747 aircraft, no regional flying at all, no accesss to A380, no bidding system at all (even in 747 land) as the juniors will not have any new recuits underneath them and will then pressure the Company to get rid of it.

Further more, Qantas has set up a new Company QCCA to employ new staff. At the moment that subsidiary company will be a party to our New EBA and new crew will be employed in our eba and be junior to us and be part of our eba on some revised conditions (still excellent and better than Jet Star intl).

That new company could then employ new staff and be given whatever flying qantas wants to give them and if we were lucky we might get whats left.

there would be redundancies and new starters would probably get all the LA flying on the 747 for the foreseeable future and anything else that Qantas wants to give them.

This EBA puts that scenario to bed for at least 5 years and in all probability permanently.

Go to the FAAA meetings and stop talking to ppl who havent been because they are talking total garbage. If the EBA goes down it would be a total disaster for Long Haul Crew.

The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.

Remember ...if this deal goes down then short haul start negotiating with Qantas as soon as our EBA is done and dusted. If ours is dead then Short Haul can have whatever they can negotiate because all of our gains in terms of new aircraft and flying in this EBA will be lost

I implore you to attend FAAA or even Company meetings...if you dont and dont get the right info the Long Haul Division with be finished

[RedTBar]

Who was it that said at a meeting once.
If I have not scared you I have not done my job.
pegasus,you have to change your script.
The EBA is a proposed document that you will get to vote on. If it is rejected thats democracy.
We will then be back where we started... No Access at all to the A380.

Who would want to fly the a380 with these conditions?
No wonder you don't want any more info on pprune

[Flugbegleiter]

Who would want to fly the a380 with these conditions?
No wonder you don't want any more info on pprune
No, information is good, but only if it is ACCURATE, well-informed and taken in context. You and some others here are making assumptions based on nothing. If someone here was unhappy with the proposed EBA after going to the meetings, that would be a different story. At least then it would be possible to have a reasonable discussion.

I don't think you understand how serious our situation is. It would be possible for QF to start recruiting new cabin crew on any conditions they want under the banner of QCCA and then have them working against us.

This EBA brings us all together which can only make us stronger.
You're one of the ones who does not want to fly the A380 under these conditions, obviously. Good for you. Just like you would not have wanted to go to the London base. But there are others who will at least appreciate the opportunity to work on the A380 if they want to.

RedTBar, can I suggest you call the union and have a chat with them personally to gain a better understanding.

Once again, I'd like to thank the negotiating team for what I believe is an excellent result, given our current circumstances.

[flugbegleiter68]

This is a LH EBA discussion, I was surprised to see SH was even mentioned to have a 'drive to NO vote' in LH EBA. There are lots of your LH colleagues transferred to SH simply because they've had enough of LH flying, just remember that, not everyone wants a piece of your cake. Full stop.

[samford]

Pegasus wrote:

The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.

Crap, the vote on regional flying was borderline as it was. I don't want it and I don't do it and I'm sick of being accused of stealing long haul flying. I, and many others hold the FAAA Domestic responsible for alot and we have made it clear to them we are more than unimpressed.

[RedTBar]

Flugbegleiter and Pegasus747,don't get me wrong because I think we have no choice but to vote yes.I just think we have been painted into a corner by a number of people.
I will be going to a meeting but you have to be serious and say that there will be bugger all existing crew apply for the a380.The only ones that will go for it will be the ones like the slurpers who will do anything the company tells them.
pegasus in his first posts told us that we would have acess to the a380 on our pay.
But who will want to work on it with
No roster
No vote at 17 hours
Increased hours up to 240 and don't tell us that bs about that won't happen until they get enough aircraft.It will happen and thats all you have to know.
and what ever else we have not been told yet about the conditions?

The company has saved a fortune with the b scale and not only does the company want more but the union wants to give it to them.
You're one of the ones who does not want to fly the A380 under these conditions, obviously. Good for you. Just like you would not have wanted to go to the London base.
Flugbegleiter,if you thought the lhr base was a good deal then I guess you don't mind these b scale conditions.So working on the a380 makes sense to you but for the rest of us that think the conditions on the lhr base stink it sure as heck does not.
This EBA brings us all together which can only make us stronger.How do you work that out?
The boat is sinking but it will take 5 years to go under.
Thats nearly as good as pegs line.
Isnt it about time something actually worked out well for us?????
as I said this is not a fairy tale with a guaranteed happy ending.
Especially not with Dixon reading the story

[Flugbegleiter]

Flugbegleiter,if you thought the lhr base was a good deal then I guess you don't mind these b scale conditions.

I never said that. I, like all other Aussie crew, absolutely hated the idea of a London base. I was prepared to strike to prevent it happening, if we could. But it's there now, just like the AKL base and the BKK base. On top of that, there's shorthaul doing a LOT of our flying.

Of course I don't like the idea of a b-scale pay. But it is the only option we have had for years now. And the b-scale group had to be MUCH cheaper than us. Look at Australian Airlines. They were cheaper than us, but still not cheap enough. They were flying OUR aeroplanes on OUR routes in OUR uniforms, but on their pay and conditions and they were STILL too expensive.

They way I see it, we have 2 choices. We can either agree to this EBA, keep or pay and conditions and finally see some growth in Aussie longhaul, including new destinations. OR, we can vote no and watch ourselves disappear. There will be NO future for us if we go that way.

[RedTBar]

What on earth is going on here,first we have the faaa supporters club with numbers on their name and now we have Flugbegleiter and his s/h alter ego Flugbegleiter68.
Did you guys meet on the lhr base?Only joking Flugbegleiter.
Then we have someone who forgets to sign out and agrees with himself in praising the union.
pegasus,The ONLY crew that are driving a no vote are the un informed and short haul crew.

NO pegasus,there are crew that are not happy with how much you have given away but will probably have to vote yes because you have left us with no choice.

[Flugbegleiter]

Yeah, who is flugbegleiter68??

Ich bin der Einzige!! :}

[lowerlobe]

Es ist nicht ich :hmm:

.......Möglicherweise ist es Darth?:E

[Machiatovelli]

Well here I am weighing in to the controversy that seems to be surrounding EBA 8 with my first ever post on pprune. Everyone seems so noice! Thats whats special cabin crew.....we're so nice. For the record, I like this agreement. It delivered more in the way of positives than I was expecting and is very short on negatives. As someone put it, if we'd had to strike to achieve this would've been considered a great victory. What a relief it didn't come to that.

[radiation junkie]

We have not been "painted into a corner". The FAAA has handed us a life line that gives us a few more years before the hordes of cheap "B" scale crew overrun the fort and scalp us all ! Regardless of outcome, this will happen, "they will take no prisoners" !

Regarding "It's all about me", in 18 months, I'll be 55 with 30 years flying. EBA8 gives me a modicum of dignity for my last couple of years. I am sure there are many crew in a similar situation or getting close to it. Plus, with Part Time for all categories, it will make life more flexible.

For the junior crew with 8 to 10 years in LH, at least they are guaranteed a minimum 5 or even more years with current conditions and an improvement in their trips and rosters.

Regardless of the $3000 bribe, this is a positive outcome for all crew and a gentle introduction to the "brave new world" that GD and Qantas has planned for future generations of Cabin Crew.

[flugbegleiter68]

Bin nicht Darth, bin einfach QF SH Flugbegleiter wer spricht auch Deutsch.

[Big Barrels]

Wasn't the election supposed to be our great saviour? So now its done we have signed our own death certificates with a date in 5 years time.

[Machiatovelli]

I have been flying for almost 15yrs and every EBA in that time was going to be the death of us........ here we have a document which gives more certainty than we've ever had in this process before and some just re-jig the mantra. Instead of our death being 2yrs from the signing it'll be 5yrs.....even thats an improvement! As for the Labor Gov being somehow a factor in this, well thats so naive its not worth a comment. Can you quote me one word from this Gov that would make this outcome any different or suggest we go back to the table?

[packrat]

Most of us expected Crap...far worse than what we got.
No one wanted to fly on the A380...no one will.
We got our regional flying back...at a price.
SIN,HKG and BKK all fly onto somewhere else and the changed slip formula may affect slips here.There are 13 hour slips in HKG already.
Our wages are untouched.
It will take several years before all the A380s arrive and begin to have an impact on our flying...particularly the states.
New destinations like South America couldnt justify the use of the big suckers.744s still have a lot of cycles left before they are put out to pasture.
We get to fly the 787s on our terms,conditions and remuneration.
The 743s will retire..good riddance.
On balance ist better than most of us expected.
The alternative is bleak.
Partime for eveyone in every category..increased mat leave.
Nothing lasts forever ...we've had a great run...and there is still awhile to run yet.
Oh, and my bet....VRs twice a year for the next 5 years.

[cartexchange]

argue and discuss all you want the fact is the EBA will be voted up!
It has flaws but it guarantees our future for at least 5 years.
At the membership meetings the FAAA officials asked us about a B scale for new crew and it was overwhelmingly voted up!
The FAAA then proceeded to get us the best they could, they have delivered.
Although I'm suspicious of QF and that management I have no choice like everyone else but to vote on this.
Anyway the "new" ones can fight their own battles..... believe me generation "y" can certainly handle themselves!
Management have no idea how tough its going to be to discipline that lot! their conditions will improve, the bidding system will be introduced for them, it will take time but it will happen.

[twiggs]

Nice to hear some sensible comments from cartexchange. (maybe because he made it out of the brasco into crewrest! :ok:

SIN,HKG and BKK all fly onto somewhere else and the changed slip formula may affect slips here

The changed slip formula will not affect slips where you go onto somewhere else (if you are referring to LHR or FRA or LAX)
If a regional pattern includes a port outside the 3 hour time zone limit, the formula reverts to our original 1 slip in first 3 to be at least 46.

Source: the mouth of Michael Mijatov

P.S I don't want to hear it Lobe, this is all I see of your posts : This message is hidden because lowerlobe is on your ignore list.

[RedTBar]

Originally posted by twiggs The changed slip formula will not affect slips where you go onto somewhere else
I have been waiting for another twiggs classic and she has delivered.:ok:

P.S I don't want to hear it Lobe, this is all I see of your posts : This message is hidden because lowerlobe is on your ignore list.
P.S twiggs,I'm sure Lobey is heartbroken but I'm glad your not on my ignore list because your posts are classics.

[RedTBar]

Back to the eba and I can't see what we can do.The boys have stitched this up and like it or lump it I can't see how we cold change it.
It annoys me that we have agreed to devalue our jobs and before I get the usual reply it is the truth.
The company told us we are too expensive and the union said the same thing and then said OK if you don't touch us you can hire all new crew at discount rates.
Thats what I meant by us being painted into a corner.I don't really like the idea of a b scale but s/h started this mess and now our union is going along with the show.
The problem is that all the senior crew will go for it because it gives them 5 years to finish up and the juniors will think it's great to see movement.
VR packages will be the order of the day as the company wants to get rid of the 'expensive crew'
The other thing that annoys me is that Dixon and friends are getting away with it once again.

[mrpaxing]

course some issues which need a bit of tiding up.
regional flying needs an fatigue based approach otherwise its open to abuse. we all know who wont hesitate to use all means available (the excuse is going to be carmen produces these patterns) ,if they get the go-ahead. the limit of slips less then lets say 18 hours MUST be a maximum of 2. this would stop stupid patterns (6 day)domestic casuals do to get entrenched. this can easily being build into the jeppesen rostering system.
guaranteed access of 20% on the A380 and other new wide bodied aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft. and so on
please feel free if i have anything wrong on this. i have not been to the meeting yet but this is my current understanding of the deal.
i understand the A380 deal involves a set rate for overtime after 12 hours.
were are you going to get your hours from with 4 aircraft in the first year if you sign up to this exclusive deal?:*:hmm::rolleyes:

[RedTBar]

Some good idea's there mrpaxing and I'm sure that others will come up with some too.
The question is will the union boys be prepared to listen and go to the company with some changes or will they say take it or leave it.

[left 4 primary]

Deal or No Deal?

There are interesting points of view about EBA8 on the following website

http://tuf07 (followed by ******** dot com)

please take the time to check it out.

[Machiatovelli]

I that a for or against post?

[cartexchange]

twiggs you really like to casue trouble!

left4 prim your link isnt working

[roamingwolf]

This agreement has allowed QF to legally transfer a minimum of 69% of international flying on the A330 to the short haul division. At the present time the long haul division is only achieving approxiamately 15% of the A330 international flying. This agreement was signed by Michael Mijatov.

eden,guardian or pegasus: Is this true?

[Flugbegleiter]

I thought I had cleared up some of these misunderstandings already. Ok, here we go again...

the limit of slips less then lets say 18 hours MUST be a maximum of 2. this would stop stupid patterns (6 day)domestic casuals do to get entrenched.

Look, there might be a few crappy trips out there, but the regional slipping formula at least states that there must be at least 50 hours worth of slips in the first 3 slips. So it is not possible to slip us for three consecutive 12 hour slips, nor even 3 consecutive 15 hour slips. Shorthaul are actually doing crappy stuff like that now. They have no slipping formula at all.

guaranteed access of 20% on the A380 and other new wide bodied aircraft.
lets assume till the end of 2010 there are 8 A380. on 18 crew thats 4 guaranteed LH slots x 10 = 40 slots. not much really.
Boeing 787-900 does not arrive until late2010/2011. once again for a 250 seat aircraft with 8 crew thats 2 crew per aircraft.

No, you have misunderstood this. You are correct about 20/80 on the Airbus A380. But ALL OTHER NEW WIDE-BODIED INTERNATIONAL aircraft will be flown by us - that's ALL of us - current crew and new starters. For all aircraft except for the A380, we will be one pool of crew.

Also, your calculations on working out how many crew will be needed on the Airbus A380 are totally incorrect. To keep one 747 flying there needs to be something like 100-150 crew. For the Airbus, it will be even more. I don't know the exact numbers because I am not an expert, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you need at least 3 to 4 times the crew complement to keep the aircraft going.

[Pegasus747]

Just in relation to the current Divisional flying split with Short haul.


The old guard of the FAAA that did EBA 6 failed to get any access at all to the a330 in their last EBA of 2003. Having said that, Mijatov and Smedley campaigned heavily against the EBA for that reason and a number of others. Notwithstanding their opposition using their own funds and their "names" rather than anonymously, the EBA was voted up by crew by about 53%.

After that Mijatov Smedley and Reed negotiated 30% of regional flying for long haul crew 25% for short haul crew and 45% that the company could flex. A significant imprivement on 0% from EBA 6.

Since then the 45% that the company could lflex has gone to short haul simply because of 140 hours per month, 25% less pay and no slipping formula.

In this EBA we get the 45% plus our 30% guaranteed for long Haul crew which represents a return of our traditional flying.

In order to secure that significant growth for our division the new entry conditions and flexibility in a new Regional Slipping formula has delivered it back to long Haul.

Even so short haul would still be more productive from some perspective but the overall gain for Qantas and Long Haul crew is a good one

I hope that answers the question on regional Flying.

Btw the 787-900 will be the aircraft that replaces the A330 on the regional flying and it is 100% ours as a result of this EBA8.... If we were doing the regional flying when it arrived we wouldnt have got it

[Pegasus747]

last sentence of my previous post should read..if we were not doing the Regional flying when the 787 arrives then we wouldnt have got it.
Geting the regional flying back was essential in getting the 787 as well as the new destinations it will fly to

[crewbunkbonker]

Very weird that QF is bribing us with a 3 grand bonus to get this through... think about it folks, Dixson :E wants to hire b scale to out number us for EBA9 which will send us down the river and at the same time suit the b-scalers, ie (lower the hours down from 230 to 210 which will increase our hours) that is one of several examples. Voting yes will leave us very vulnerable in five years time. As it has been said in other blogs this EBA8 will suit the seniors that plan to leave in the next five years, leaving us out numbered with b scalers. GET IT? So don't be stupid, VOTE NO, also very strange how defensive Mitchatov:suspect: was in regards to the reference that he is accepting a kick-back from Qantas in his overstated message. (If it was me and it wasn't true, I would have just left it) Mitchatov :E:suspect: really is pushing this EBA8 that seems like he didn't really negotiate too much on, as he was speaking another language before the election. It looks too transparent. Remember the LAX dispensation, he pushed us to say yes and see what happened.

[OCCR]

crew bonker
well what is your bright idea then?
what do you want us to do?
vote us out of a job?
its that simple, accept this EBA or get out!
MM and SR have delivered a good eba!
go to the union meetings and listen.

[Flugbegleiter]

That's right. Vote no to this and it's probably over very soon. Vote yes, and we at least have 5 good years and I'm pretty sure a lot more after that, too.

If you don't trust the current FAAA negotiating team and you vote No, why would you trust them to try and get a "better" deal? Really think this through.

People like you could jeopardise all of our jobs. Don't post crap unless you really know all the facts.

Go to a meeting. Get the facts. Then come back and play.

[crewbunkbonker]

explain to me why the 3k bribe? think from the mind of greed... he(GD:E) wants us out numbered for votes on eba9..we vote no and we get MM and sons to go back to the table.its not a lib governnment any longer. i say call the bluff. i also dont trust MM:suspect: any longer..he rolls too easily. regarding the union meetings? i've been and MM contradicts himself..:bored: plus gets defiant when asked the wrong question:suspect:..cant wait to vote him out:ok:

[Big Barrels]

Why is it that its all over if we vote it down?

[cartexchange]

I think its time you get a reality check!

[samford]

I spoke to the Domestic FAAA yesterday, and negotiations for the SH EBA is due to commence in Jan. I was told "we will take all the flying we can get", its that attitude which should give some warning to you all.

[Pegasus747]

I can assure you all that if this eba is defeated then there will certainly be no going back to the table for MM SR or any of the current FAAA officials. As was stated at the meeting the other day if you defeat the EBA which is the culmination of 2 years solid work and planning.

there is no $3000 bribe. It was part of the FAAA Claim as to break the 3% barrier for pay rises has been impossible for any union since 1996 including the most powerful union (AIPA) Pilots.

The pilots have been out of EBA for nearly 12 months and are 2 meal allowance reviews behind cabin crew and we have no qualifications that compare with pilots.

This EBA protects the current crew and creates good full time jobs in Australia for young people.

Leanne Dalton is circulating an email to crew urging them to vote it down because its a 'dire EBA'

Leanne was not at any of the FAAA meetings in the last 3 years as she was not an FAAA member and probably is still not. Such is her committment to the Union and flight attendants.

When it comes to credibility i wouldnt trust someone who professes to care about crew and not even be a union member haviing once held high office

[call button]

The 'new hire' Qantas Flight Attendants will not get to vote in EBA 9. They will be hired by a separate company and as such will have their own EBA. They can negotiate whatever they like with the company, and you will have no control whatsoever.

MAM F/A's do not vote in the short haul EBA. They have their own separate EBA.

With regard to the 787. I think that crew should consider the fact that 787's may never become part of the Qantas fleet. If they do, it will most likely be outside the span (5 years) of EBA 8. The first 787's are for Jetstar, and the A330's currently at Jetstar will be transferred back to Qantas. There is no benefit in securing a promise that Longhaul will crew all the 787's in this EBA, if the 787's don't become part of the Qantas fleet until after the EBA has expired.

[twiggs]

The EBA would get up without the $3K, just as easily.

One question I have asked myself is why would Qantas care about what happens after 5 years when every other decision they make is based on what happens in the next 5 minutes?;)

With this EBA we live to fight another day with a different management (and live well).

[cartexchange]

OMG I don't believe it! i actually agree 100% of what twiggs has posted......hmmmm something wrong here!
Twiggs so you have been following Dr's orders and have finally started taking those pills.

The EBA will be voted up! call button you statements are so incorrect, attend and EBA meeting and you will get your answers.

[DEFCON4]

In 1988 when the Bid System was being introduced the same nonsense that went on then is going on now.
Crew memebers cars were damaged in the carpark,crew were being rung at home and threatened.One poor devil even had his dog poisoned.
We now are so enamoured of our Bid System Crew would scream blue murder if it was taken away.
The same type of moronic behaviour is apparent now.
When the dusts settles you will see that these fools are wrong..just like they were in 1988
There are those that are so dysfunctional that they cannot and will not see the benefits of change in anything.
This is a good deal...its not perfect ...nothing in life is.
Some of the posters on here have suspect credentials ..these issues often excite the lunatic fringe.
You want the truth?.....go to a meeting...get a copy of the EBA and make up your own "adult"mind".
Those that are critical suggest going back to re negotiate..ARE YoU INSANE?
This is the best deal you are going to get.
Those that want to undermine this EBA want to undermne your future.
Those people will not put their names to anything so that they can be questioned.
They are cowards who hide behind anonymity.
The FAAA is open ,upfront and conducting meetings...the critics arent.
Ask yourself ..Where are they? ..Who are these faceless people and why are they doing this?
There are those in this industry who will benefit from this EBA not getting up.
Think about it....

[lovelondon]

Call Button , I suggest you attend one of the FAAA meetings so you can get the facts .

Yes Mam casuals have their own EBA but if you attend one of the meetings you will know that the newly recruited FA's employed by QCCA will be covered by the very same LH EBA 8 that is proposed for us.

At the meeting you will be given a hand out which very clearly states on the first page that the proposed EBA 8 is divided into 3 parts. Part A applies to all LH crew, current and new entrants then Chapter 1 applies to only current LH crew and Chapter 2 applies to all new entrants.

If the EBA 8 is voted yes then all the QCCA employees will be able to vote on EBA 9.

Galley gossip and crew bus b******t doesnt cut it anymore.

[mrpaxing]

Flugbegleiter and others for given a more detailed account. more info is required and i am sure will come forward. i also will attend a meeting when i get a chance.
defcon4 the original bidding system was good but as you know 34 or so amendments dont help.
we shall continue to keep with questions, the more we know the more we can dispute "galley rumors".:ok:

[hawke eye]

Whether you like Mijatov, Smedley or Reed, or not, Pegasus is correct.

For those of you who are the authors on TUF why dont you act what you preach. You suggest dont trust whats in this EBA.
Who are you, what are YOUR names, what is your industrial experience, what is your union experience if any, what is your flying experience if any, are you Long or Short Haul?

If what you are saying has any shred of truth to it , it will go largely ignored unless you put your reputations out there with your EBA predictions and viewpoints.

Until you do that i would suggest you change the name of your site from Tuf to scared. Or Tuf to offer an alternative but not my name or expeience.

There are former officials who have insisted in the past that a dob without a name is not to be taken seriously or used against a F/A. Surely the same principle applies here.

Last EBA i was sick of seeing Reeds and Mijatovs name, however, i did read their stuff because they signed it.
One more thing. I guess it will eventually drift out who is behind Tuf. I suggest they make themselves known rather than they become known for being to scared (of what i dont know) to make themselves known.

My advice is read it when its signed then you know whos written it otherwise it could be written by anyone, even non flyers, anybody.
If it aint signed ignore it!:ok:

No im not mijatovs stooge , im not anyones stooge, particularly anonymous advice givers.

[Big Barrels]

Why are QF so keen to lock us into an EBA so quickly? All other unions have problems getting their EBA's negotiated years after they expire.

What is the significance of the impending announcement regarding the segmentation of the QF business?

What will happen when future aircraft deliveries are not owned by Qantas Airways Limited anymore? In future they will be owned by another company in turn owned by QF.

Me thinks there is a lot more to unfold from this than people think.

Be careful.

[call button]

Can someone please explain what TUF is?

[twiggs]

The fact is this EBA delivers what most of us have been scared of losing for the last 3 years, and giving us back some of what we lost prior to that.

We got what we asked for and still some people are sceptical.
Most of us are confident that Michael and Steve have got all the hidden agenda covered but you can only do so much.

Yes, Qantas will probably have some nasty surprises ahead, but at least we will go into the next 5 years knowing we got a damn good deal and if we are lucky, we will have Reed and Mijatov negotiating again for us at the end of 2012.

[cartexchange]

for those of you that dont have access to the Crew website!
here is the latest from QF managerment

LONG HAUL CABIN CREW EBA 8 - FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
1. When do all these initiatives begin?
◣ The new EBA will only come into effect if it is endorsed by a majority of long haul crew
voting in a secret ballot. If endorsed by a majority of crew the Agreement can be lodged
with the Workplace Authority and will come into effect as soon as it is lodged.
2. How do I apply for part time?
◣ We’ll be releasing Expression of Interest forms as soon as the new Agreement comes
into effect. We will also use the existing waitlists.
3. When will part-time start?
◣ As soon as the expressions of interest can be processed, positions will be phased in for
operational reasons. We expect part time positions to start rolling out from BP257. Our
aim is to meet the demand for part time opportunities as quickly as possible.
4. What is happening to A380 flying - it hasn't been clearly communicated?
◣ The A380 will have dedicated Cabin Crew. This will be a combination of Qantas Airlines
crew who apply to operate the A380 and crew employed by QF Cabin Crew Australia.
Cabin Crew for QF CCUK will also operate on UK to Asia A380 routes.
5. If I'm interested in part-time but I'm not ready for that change yet, will I still have
the option of part-time later, for example, in a year's time?
◣ Yes, you will be eligible to put in an Expression of Interest form at any time and your parttime
will be approved as we have the available resources to accommodate your request.
6. If a crew member is currently on maternity leave, can they automatically extend to
two years?
◣ Yes, if EBA 8 is voted up.
7. What will be the work allocation system for crew working for QCCA on the B747,
A330 and B767?
◣ Crew who are employed by QCCA will be allocated after crew employed by Qantas
Airlines. This means that all existing crew will have their roster built using seniority. The
flying that has not been covered by existing crew is then allocated on a fair shared basis
to QCCA crew.
8. Qantas may decide to take all long range flying from existing crew and award this
flying to crew employed by QCCA?
◣ If EBA 8 is voted up, all B747, A330 and B767 flying will be allocated to Qantas Airlines
crew first, using the seniority bidding system. The remaining flying is then allocated to
QCCA crew using fair-share principles. EBA 8 will not allow Qantas to remove all long
range flying from Qantas Airlines crew and allocate this to QCCA crew - this would be a
breach of the new EBA.
9. Even if QCCA only do the unallocated flying, Customer Service Managers and
Customer Service Supervisors will still need to fly with them?
◣ That’s correct and it is no different to our onboard management team currently flying with
crew employed by Adecco, Jetconnect or MAM.
10. Why will there be Customer Service Manager promotions from all ranks?
◣ With the considerable growth predicted in the Long Haul division, there are going to be
significant new promotional opportunities for both Customer Service Supervisors and
Flight Attendants to move into Customer Service Manager positions.

[surfside6]

Turds
Under
Fire

[hawke eye]

Not what Call button but WHO??????

As stated earlier it is just a tad imporant to know who.

Would you ever take advice in life from someone you dont know??????
or someone you do?

Until they reveal themselves they are someone we dont know.
This is an EBA for goodness sake. if they are dealing with the truth then what do they have to hide.
MM and SR certainly didnt remain anonymous when they had objections.

[curious24]

It's pathetic to discredit Leanne because she does not belong to the Union. The law does not require us to belong to the Union and I believe that people who feel that the Union is not always acting in our interest have a right to be heard. We've heard where the FAAA stands. I'm interested to hear where people like Leanne stand on this EBA and their reasons why.

[Pegasus747]

The point that i made was not that Leanne is somehow doing something wrong by not being a member of the Union. What i find outreageous is that she was an FAAA official and resigned when she was not re-elected. Some of us see that as like the boy that takes his bat and ball and goes home when they get bowled out.

NO philosphical Union Committment obviously. Happy to take the pay increases but not contribute like the rest of us. And then criticise the organisation that is doing its best for crew.

sorry its sickening

[DEFCON4]

Lets hear from every one of the other 3000 LHCC members...they have a right too.Particularly since they are financial members of the FAAA.
Anyone who is not happy withe EBA has the right to approach the company and negotiate their own terms and conditions.There are way too many people who coat tail the hard work of the FAA and its negotiating team
If you are not happy go and see Dixon and strike a deal for yourself.
Give LD a call and perhaps you can join her....Good Luck...You'll need it.
Criticize sure...but for Gods Sake come up with some well reasoned intelligent viable alternatives..C'mon folks show us the alternatives...they'd better be bloody good.
Put Up or Shutup.

[surfside6]

There is another CC EBA due to be renegotiated soon.These people have already shown their colours.They would sell their own mothers to gain the upper hand.The last EBA they signed off on was a total act of bastardry.Even most of their own members weren't happy with it.
Lets not give them a chance to do it again .

[left 4 primary]

I know that this a Rumour Network, but there appears to be a group of people running a bit of a scare campaign, as indicated by the type and number of e-mails I'm getting,there are quite a few concerned individuals out there.

All I can say is Attend the FAAA meetings, get the facts.

Also, QF management are holding a special Crew Voice for EBA8 on Tuesday 11 Dec between 15.30 and 16.30 hrs it might be worthwhile to hear what they have to say.

The contact details are on CIS.

As far as I'm concerned it looks like that's about as good as it's going to get. I was worried that they were going to hand us AWA's with a pay cut and more hours. So really MM and SR have done pretty good.

I was looking forward to getting my hands on the new toy the A380 but under those conditions ,I don't think so.

I only hope that MM,SR and their team will hang around to help with EBA9.

[mrpaxing]

say if you are not sure ring the union, go to the meetings,etc. as for leanne, i do agree with Peg47, its a bit rich for a former official to critisize as a non-member, therefor her voice is irrelevant. let her negotiate her own contract.:ugh:

[call button]

Surfside...

It is true that shorthaul agreed to do regional flying for less money, and inferior conditions to longhaul FA's. But, the conditions and pay that the 'new hire' longhaul FA's will work under (should the EBA be voted up) are substantially lower than shorthaul.

Do you really think these crew members will be happy to work alongside you, when you work less hours per roster, and get paid a sh*tload more? Maybe they will be happy enough for the first few months, but when the novelty wears off, and they are exhausted and broke, what will happen then.

What kind of a workplace environment will it be in 5 or 10 years? Will you still be around then?

[hawke eye]

Unbelievable! a former official "of high office" is no longer a member. How many others are there that on being voted out of office are non- members.

Our union is NOT a political party! it is an organised(often disorganised I admit) group designed to maintain our working conditions and employment.

To be voted out of office and then resign because you dont like the officials who have replaced you is a disgrace and despicable.

These officials were voted in by the majority. This is a democracy. S
Let me get this right its ok for people to elect you but if they vote you out thats not OK?

What sort of representative does that make you.

It makes you as bad as those you criticise when they act as strikebreakers.

There should be a rule that if an elected official remains in the job and resigns from the union they can NEVER put themselves up for elected office.

Talk about picking up and taking the ball and going home when the game doesnt go your way.

I hope those individuals put themselves up for the next FAAA election so they can be outed if they have been non- members.

Of course they dont see it that way. Of course they believe they were the best Officials we ever had, they were good but by not being members they have now grouped themselves in with the worst. as said earlier its sickening!

[surfside6]

The situation you describe already exists...The AKL and BKK base already work under Ts and Cs way inferior to ours.....they dont like it(we dont like it) but they live with it.....so will the new guys.
Gen Y are well able to fight their own battles....they are not really suitable for customer service roles though....some airlines are already finding this out....much to their chagrin

[mrpaxing]

they shot themselves in the foot. they never can stand for any official position again. other contenders running for office would have a field day "dragging this issue" on and on.:ooh:

[hawke eye]

Call button if the novelty wears off for the "B scalers" and they aren't too happy with their conditions it might be worth explaining to them they wouldnt be having this discussion if we did not agree to a "b scale" which gave them full time employment with Qantas.
You might explain the facts.If they wanted to be a QF flight attendant
they would be working in NZ on less money, and NO conditions. In fact they might even bump into a few of those very same crew who manage to apply to the B Scale and have full time employment with Charlie Q.

Once they get the job they might join the FAAA and start working towards improving their conditions like we had to, except they will have our support.

Alternatively we can all vote NO and we wont have a problem with a B scale.

We wont get sacked, or put on contracts or forcibly made redundant due to Mr RudD.

Of course we wont get the A380, we wont get the 787, why would we when regional will continue to go to the domestics who have a better regional formula than us and CCA will be open for application to operate the 787 and A380 on Jstar wages.
its about time some of us got real and woke up.
You asked for seniority . You got it! We asked for no extra hours we got it!. is it a good deal, Not really. is it the best under the circumstances with the SHaul FAAA awaiting an opportunity to secure extra flying, yes.

It is a shame both divisions of the FAAA are not united and ultimately this is what has now caused the slippery slope to the bottom. Lets hope this EBA secures our future once and for all!