Mega Merged: Qantas Long Haul Cabin Crew Eba8 Negotiations

[Guardian1]

THE FOLLOWING NEWSLETTER WAS ISSUED BY THE FAAA. CLEARLY WE ARE IN FOR A DIFFICULT TIME. WHAT DO PEOPLE IN THIS FORUM THINK ABOUT THE UPCOMING EBA NEGOTIATIONS - WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE FEDERAL VOTING INTENTION OF CREW AND OTHERS IN THE COMMUNITY MORE GENERALLY- WHAT SHOULD THE STANCE OF THE FAAA BE IN THE UPCOMING EBA NEGOTIATIONS?
In a newsletter to you dated 18 August 2006, about the introduction of AWA’s (individual contracts) in Jetstar International, I wrote “the defeat of the Howard Government is essential in order to stop a complete onslaught on our conditions after the Qantas Long Haul EBA expires in December 2007”.
I knew that some members thought that I was exaggerating the risk posed to our conditions, by a determined employer armed to the teeth, by the unfair and extreme WorkChoices legislation. The feedback that the FAAA is receiving more recently indicates that crew now realise that my comments last year were not hyperbole or overstatement.
It is my strong belief that a Howard Government win in this year’s Federal Election will lead to an unprecedented onslaught on Long Haul conditions. An accurate indicator of what will happen to our conditions in the advent of a re-elected Howard Government is the Jetstar International AWA for its international Cabin Crew.
COMPARISON OF LONG HAUL AND JETSTAR CONDITIONS
MAX SALARY $51390 (QF) $33475 (JQ) - 35%
HOURS WORKED FOR SALARY 182.3 (QF) 240 (JQ) -32%
MAX HOURS 199 (QF) 306 (JQ) +54%
ANNUAL LEAVE 42 DAYS (QF) 30 DAYS (JQ) - 29%
SICK LEAVE 15 DAYS (QF) 10 DAYS (JQ) -33%
BID SYSTEM YES (QF) NO (JQ)
REDUNDANDCY CURRENT (QF) 16 WEEKS MAX (JQ)
OVERTIME AFTER 12 HRS (QF) ONLY AFTER 306 HRS/ROSTER (JQ)
ACCOMMODATION FIRST CLASS (QF) AS DETERMINED BY JQ
ALLOWANCES AGREED WITH FAAA AS DETERMINED BY JQ
The above summary is not exhaustive of the woeful conditions inflicted on cabin crew in Jetstar International, who had to accept individual contracts (AWA) if they wanted employment.
It is instructive to remind members that a Jetstar spokesman referred to the salary as “phenomenal” and “we believe the overall package is comparable to other industries with similar skill sets such as cafes and restaurants”.
It is no wonder that when the FAAA approached Jetstar International to forge a professional working relationship, we were told by Jetstar, “we do not recognise your request to meet with you either now or in the future. We consider that we have satisfactory and appropriate arrangements and relationships with our International Flight Attendants and as such we see no need to meet with your organisation on these matters”.
The statements above display the sheer arrogance, hostility and contempt by an employer within the Qantas Group, emboldened by the unfair and extreme power given to it by Mr Howard’s WorkChoices law.
It is also instructive to note the waste of shareholders funds that some major employer groups are currently involved in, to promote Mr Howard’s WorkChoices laws. If the laws are so wonderful and employee friendly, a slightly cynical person might ask, why the need to spend millions defending them? Remember, all the glittery packaging and wrapping in the world cannot alter the fact that you can’t sell smelly fish.
In summary, a Howard Government win later this year, will mean a ferocious industrial onslaught to equalise Long Haul conditions to Jetstar International levels, backed up by all the powers given to employers under Mr Howard’s legislation.
Our members have been warned several times of the repercussions of a re-elected Howard Government. Please heed our warnings and if you value your current conditions of employment, use the next several weeks before the election is called to engage friends in discussion about the unfair and extreme federal industrial laws.
I will shortly issue a reminder of upcoming FAAA members’ meetings. We are about to enter the most difficult and complex EBA negotiations in our history. It is essential that all members attend.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov –Secretary International Division
20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192

[prunezeuss]

If you are a Jet* crewmember forget about buying a car or a house.
The banks would laugh at you on those wages..
By reducing an individuals income you reduce their demand.
Less cars,less whitegoods,less clothing,furniture and so it goes.
Inventories build,production slows and workers are laid off.
The downward spiral.
All this is basic Keynesian economics.
WorkChoices legislation targets those on lower and middle incomes working for middlesized companies.
It seems that it is a blatant attempt at widening the gap between the haves and have nots.
It will in effect create a working poor or underclass.
Who the hell benefits from this ?
Even the tax base shrinks.As wages shrink so does the tax payable.
Can someone explain to me the advantage of falling wages over time?

[The Professor]

And yet the fastest growing economies are those employing cheap labor while the western world slowly moves everything offshore.

prunezeuss, perhaps you should do a little more research.

[RedTBar]

Professor,
If the western worlds company's and boards did not source products and services off shore what would happen?

Let's look at an example of a department store that sold a mans shirt for $39.95 and made a profit with a retail mark up of at least 100%.They decide to have the shirt made in some third world country and close the plant down in their own country.The workers are now unemployed not to mention the impact on the local area where the shirts were made.

The shirt is now made for $5.00 instead of say$15.00 and the department store still sells that shirt for the same price of $39.95 is running out of people to sell them to because they are all out of work.

Who's fault is that?

The workers or the board/owner of the department store?.

prunezeuss is right and the problem with awa's and lower pay on contracts is that the banks will be more reluctant to lend money and this flows on to purchases the worker would/could have made.

Who benefits from this in the short term....The boss/board/CEO etc..with their bonus's for cutting costs.

The question is at what cost?

[prunezeuss]

Western economies are at full capacity constrained by available resources.
The economies you allude to have a generally poor standard of living and an abundance of cheap labour.
Theirr growth is also from a very very lowbase.
A large portion of these economies are still at subsistence levels.
The Indian economy has a population of over 1 billion.As has the Chinese economy.
The American economy is in decline.10 % of the population(26m) live on or below the poverty line.The health system is a farce.
It doesnt seem to bother individuals like you that the Australian economy under Howard is heading the same way.
Where will we be in 20 years.
More importantly where will you be...probably living in China.
The Professor:I'm alright Jack bugger you.
Retired Airline Manager...says it all really

[roamingwolf]

hey proff how about the millions of toys that are being called back because they were not made the right way or have the wrong paint?
can you do the same with your aircraft that are getting a grease and an oil change in thirdworld countries and you find out they screwed up?
i hear the manager in the factory has done himself in.so mate how good is this third world country gig you reckon is the bees knees?

[The Professor]

"Who's fault is that?" has absolutely no relevance in the debate at all. The global market will influence capital, labor and production as it sees fit. To assign blame when the benefits don't come your way shows how simplistic your understanding of the subject is.

The analogy used by redtbar is rather basic but lets play along. How many department stores in western countries sell items manufactured domestically. What percentage of the items sold are manufactured in countries with cheap labor?

Prunezeuss, are you aware that some theories posed by JMK have been discredited including, in part, his thoughts on this very subject. In addition, the global economy has changed significantly since JMK was theorizing economics. The liberalization of global capital has totally altered the importance of aggregate demand.

"More importantly where will you be...probably living in China." If thats where the employment opportunities are, then yes, of course.

The argument put forth by you is fascinatingly simple yet totally selfless "I want to get paid more in order to better contribute to the economy".

Fantastic.

[prunezeuss]

Globalization is manipulated by government intervention.
Particularly in America.thru' government subsidies
I dont want to earn more...I just dont want to earn less.
Prof..you live in California...been to Compton lately?
You are a retired Airline Manager so you probably contributed to the mess that masquerades as an Airline system in the US.
The American attitude to Globalization is ambivalent....
......it is embraced so long as it is not to the detriment of America
Perhaps the economics spouted by JK Galbraith is more to your taste.
You are no longer part of the workforce...so to a large extent you are insulated from what is happening.
An armchair champion who is only too happy to make commentary on the game because there are no consequences for you whatever the outcome.
There are 6 billion people on this planet.
Globalization(sic)benefits around 10%
According to you....too bad about the other 90%

[speedbirdhouse]

Perhaps john howard aka the professor can explain who will provide for the needs of an underclass of working poor once they reach retirement?

The ones that will be well and truly created once "work no choices" REALLY bites during the next down turn in the global economy.

Ross Gittens has argued that the conservative government [sic] has over the last 11 years shifted the risks involved in running business to the employees.

They will bare the brunt of the hard times with company profits and executive bonus's :yuk: insulated through business's new found ability to slash and burn great swathes of their workforces.

Howard and his thugs have even legislated a name for it. It'll be done in the name of,"OPERATIONAL REASONS".

I for one am sick to f#cking death of living in an "economy".

It's about time the Australian people woke up to the fact that we live in a society.

We live in Australia for f@cks sake.

What utility is gained by creating an underclass of working poor?

[RedTBar]

The Professor posts "How many department stores in western countries sell items manufactured domestically. What percentage of the items sold are manufactured in countries with cheap labor"

Brilliant and exactly my point and why is that?

Did the Department stores lower the price of the shirt when they moved manufacturing offshore? No of course not because they want bigger profits but at what cost and no it is not irrelevant if it's your job that was lost.

Of course the professor has the answer.

We all move to China and will the last person out the door please turn the lights off.

[Fliegenmong]

The thought of the country that we were, where we could have been heading and the direction that Kim Il John Mugabe Howard is taking us is very very sad.:{:=

But I suppose someone like aircraft could justify it all in their own peculiar perverted way :rolleyes:

Speedbird house
"I'm sick to death of livingh in an economy and want to live in a society" Very well said indeed!:D

[lowerlobe]

Tbar..I like the bit about the professor moving to China.Has he seen the pollution levels lately?

Beijing makes LA look crystal clear.The athletes will have to compete wearing a PBE mask.;)

If half these clowns who talk about market forces and globalisation being a good thing ever worked in the real world they might have a different view.

[Transition Layer]

Mods,

Perhaps the title of this thread can be changed to reflect the fact it represents Cabin Crew EBA 8 negotiations. Qantas Longhaul pilots are also in EBA8 negotiations. I just wasted a minute of my time reading the usual dribble from the usual suspects.

TL

[roamingwolf]

TL,it took you a minute to work out this is a cc thread?.
mate stick to checklists then.

[speedbirdhouse]

Slooooooow on the uptake?

[Transition Layer]

Hey guys, why don't you go play in the Cabin Crew forum? Oh that's right, you got kicked out of there for carrying on like pork chops.

Now I can see why they didn't want you there...grow up!

[speedbirdhouse]

........AND precious.:D

[roamingwolf]

hey TL have you read some of your threads against J*
what was that you said about pork chops gunga din and you made a post on a cabin crew thread.
do you listen to your own advice mate

[The Professor]

Prunezeuss asks “Prof..you live in California...been to Compton lately?”.

No, Compton is not a suburb I would frequent. Are you suggesting that I am unaware of the crime and poverty that exists in this part of LA? Do you think market capitalism benefits everybody?

You have missed the mark somewhat, I live in the US but I am not American and I have never worked in the airline system here.

Speedbird house asks “Perhaps john howard aka the professor can explain who will provide for the needs of an underclass of working poor once they reach retirement?”

Why would the market place provide for a group of people that are no longer components of the market place? This is the reality of capitalism that is well advanced in Britain and the US and is slowly becoming apparent in Australia.

RedTbar asks “Did the Department stores lower the price of the shirt when they moved manufacturing offshore? No of course not because they want bigger profits but at what cost and no it is not irrelevant if it's your job that was lost.”

I don’t think you fully understand the comment I made with regard to manufacturing moving offshore. Of course the department stores want bigger profits, that’s what market capitalism is all about, maximizing profit. If moving the production facility to a country with significantly lower labor costs provides a greater return on investment then such a move will be considered. This is not an opinion; it’s not something open for debate. The fact is that every high labor cost economy has seen a decline in traditional manufacturing conducted onshore. Textiles in China, India and Vietnam are manufactured by employees who earn as little as $1000 USD per annum. Can an Australian employee compete with that? Should they even try? Many economists would argue that western countries will eventually abandon any attempt to compete in the manufacturing sector as a result. Western countries have traditionally relied on trade restrictions and agreements, trade barriers and tariffs etc to enable them to compete in the global manufacturing market. Unfortunately, such protectionism leads to significant institutionalized inefficiencies that inflict more harm than good in the long term. This is evident in the airline industry. Take a look at where the aircraft orders are coming from.

[lowerlobe]

I find it interesting that people like TP finds it inevitable and almost mandatory that offshore sourcing will and should happen.

this is not an opinion; it’s not something open for debate.

So what happens Professor when the cost of living in these third world countries goes up to the point where their labor is no longer cheaper?

All the skills that WERE in your country have long gone.

A smart business and a smarter government would realise that you can't just give away your manufacturing base.Sooner or later this great paper theory of yours will turn around and bite you.

[Bazzamundi]

Lets see TL, there is a site generated by pilots for pilots like PPrune, and there are sites made for cabin crew by cabin crew (ie. http://www.cabincrew.com/ccnetwork/default.asp). This one even has a special section for Australian and New Zealand Cabin Crew.

Given the logic of the posters here, perhaps it would make more sense for pilots to take their discussion over to the Cabin Crew Website. Or is it just a handful who have been banned from everywhere else who choose to post here?

[watch your6]

The Mod in the CC forum did not appear to understand the muscularity of the Australian debating style.
As was/is her right we were cast into the exterior darkness.
We have been here for awhile.
So why now do you take exception to our presence?
There appears to be room enough to accommodate everyone.
We tried to establish a QF LHCC forum but that was denied us.
We appear to be accepted by the Mod here so why not try to be alittle neighbourly instead of giving us the "Skygod" attitude?

[Eden99]

23 August 2007

Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants

FAAA WEBSITE POLL

The FAAA is happy to advise members that we have enhanced our website to allow polling of members. This new facility will allow the FAAA to rapidly check the “pulse” of our members on a range of important issues and thus get a valuable, accurate and speedy indicator of where members stand on important issues.

The new facility will be an invaluable tool in the lead up to EBA8 negotiations.
To vote and to see the updated voting result, a member will have to log on to the FAAA website. The system will only allow (1) vote from a member for each poll question.

Our first poll of Qantas Long Haul crew asks the question:

“DO YOU SUPPORT THE CURRENT BID SYSTEM”

Please vote and urge other crew to vote and we can all be in a better position to understand what Long Haul crew , as a group, think about topical issues.


Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov –Secretary International Division

20 Ewan Street Mascot NSW 2020 Tel 61 2 8337 1111 Fax 61 2 8337 1122 Emergency Contact 0414 894 192

[mrpaxing]

interesting polling. why doesn't the faaa extend the polling to a whole range of issues.
proper wage increase
more benefits
more flexiblitiy in rostering
live open time trip swaps
one reserve line for all bases
SUPER ANNUATION PAID TO THE ACTUAL HOURS WORKED ( we still get short changed by about 25% in super payments)
profit sharing like the domestic pilots EBA
sign on bonus like the domestic pilots EBA
divisor can be increased (seasonal or for for individuals) but MPT cannot be infringed
100 % 75% 50 % roster (adjusted on an anual bases)
performance based bonuses for all crew on sector targets (duty free and customer satisfaction)
return of more regional flying
A380 /787 flying
Cap on overseas bases (difficult due to legislation but should be in the mix)
fatigue management program for ultra long range and multi sector flying

Lets have it:uhoh::oh:

[cartexchange]

I have always liked the idea of "live open time bidding"
The sick leave would be reduced by an incredible amount.

[radiation junkie]

All your points are very valid and I agree whole heartedly ! BUT, in many ways the bid system is at the heart of the next EBA. If I loose ALL my bidding seniority status, then it's "Goodnight Sweetheart" as far as I am concerned and I feel the same goes for many LH CC . Qantas knows this and is playing this card to divide CC and hold back on any VR till next EBA is ratified. The effects will be negative right down to the junior crew, but many are blinded by the company roadshow spin . The most essential thing is to vote. Whether the results will have any relevance, depends on who and how many do vote. I am happy to be flexible with seniority, bidding and trip allocation, but depends how far Qantas wants to go. The other big issue as mrpaxing has covered, is fexibility with roster hours. I am sure many crew want more hours and others less. Interesting times ahead....

[twiggs]

why doesn't the faaa extend the polling to a whole range of issues
I'm sure there will be many polls in the next few months, this is just the first to get the ball rolling.

The most essential thing is to vote.
Exactly radiation junkie.
One of the most incomprehensible occurrences during EBA voting is the amount of crew that DON'T vote.

[lowerlobe]

I'm sure there will be many polls in the next few months, this is just the first to get the ball rolling.


Ok Twiggs let's get the ball rolling.

Do you support the 'current' bid system?

Since this is an anonymous forum it is a simple question..yes or no

[twiggs]

Yes I do lowerlobe, sorry just yes is too short for a post.

[lowerlobe]

OK fair enough how about some others?

[capt.cynical]

Oh my Gord!!!!
Lobey and twiggs agreeing :)

Might be the start of a romance or maybe just a 2 person RL scrum :D;)

[twiggs]

No chance, I'm not gay.

[surfside6]

...but you are confused.
Self pollenating perhaps ?

[mrpaxing]

what if any limitations would any of you agree on the current bid system?:hmm:
Let me think out loud. if you limit trips (eg. 3 Lax per roster , which would give senior people options to bid for 3 nrt or similar), would that flow down to the junior ranks?
would live open time trading be more beneficial to junior f/a's? i would suggest a live open time trading platform where 15% of all trips (short,medium,long trips) get fed into over the roster period. this surely would stimulate trip swaps and may get a reasonable balance?
incoming:zzz::hmm:

[DEFCON4]

The Company wont implement or change anything unless there is a significant cost benefit to them.
What you propoe has merit.
It may reduce the number of lowlines generated but that may not be enough.

[lowerlobe]

DEFCON 4's right and the company will definitely want a trade off.They are not interested in whether or not crew are happy and get the trips they want.

The interesting part is that if the crew as a group are happy with their rosters then the level of sick leave will drop as a result.

The managers you negotiate with believe in a win/win scenario.That is a win for them and a win for the company.

[mrpaxing]

the company already spend the money on the system. it just wants to "dictate"what goes into the system. if you have a flexible divisor ( as long as minimum rules aren't infringed), wouldn't that be a win / win for qf and crew? surely that would minmize sick leave. then again its all about power, isn't. :yuk:

[DEFCON4]

The Bid System is but one part of a much larger equation......
1.New Aircraft Types
2.Ultra Long Rang Flying
3.Maintenance of Ts and Cs
4.Crew levels on New Aircraft.
5.The Regional Flying agreement
6.Overtime and its maintenance
7.Home Transport
8.The slipping formula.
9.Fatigue
10.The offshore bases.
This EBA is a watershed...everything is up for grabs.
Everyone,regardless of seniority needs to think seriously about all of the above.
LG's stated intention...Our wages with the AKL Base conditions.
Which Means....WE RETAIN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
Again I say..where will you be in 5 or 10 years time.
More importantly ....where do you want to be?
Do you want to be in some bar in one of the three destinations left to LH agonizing over lost opportunities?
This is going to be the toughest negotiation we have ever had.
Who is going to blink first?
Seniority and the Bid System,while important, are a diversion.
Whether you are junior or senior will make no difference if you get a 30% reduction in your wages.
Dont lose sight of the wood for the trees

[mrpaxing]

defcon i do agree with you. everthing is on the table. even if you look at the aussie hotels. s/h have agreed to the ibis in bne and are moving in mel to some lower class hotel. just been through mel i understand lh is moving out of the hilton as well. as living expenses have gone throught the roof i certainly wont agree to any wage reduction. with GD pointing out he expects an 30% increase in profits this financial year, more then a few crumbs need to filter through!!!!!!!
the upcoming EBA is without doubt the biggest challenge MM, SR face, but lets not forget they have our full support:ok:

[packrat]

There has been no Bid System training for 10 years.
The last time a user manual was printed was in 1988.
A large number of crew still dont know how to bid.
No wonder people are disappointed with their rosters.
Two former work systems advisers offered to train crew for nothing.
The Company said no.
The Company doesnt want crew to know how to bid.
The individuals who were responsible for its introduction were gone within a year.
While they gained productivity by reducing standown time by 25%,the wages bill ballooned.

[twiggs]

Totally agree packrat.
It makes you wonder what things would be like if everybody knew how to make the most of the current system.
I think one of the problems though is that is is beyond the capability of many crew to understand it, let alone utilise it to its maximum benefit.

I mean even now, a lot of crew think we already have a new bid system called CARMEN!
Now CARMEN is actually JEPPESEN in a different incarnation, but only the name of the company that makes the software.
For those that do not know, the CARMEN software that is in use, just makes the patterns, it is nothing to do with how trips are allocated.

Maybe that's why they didn't bother?
A new system will be far more user friendly but whether we get better rosters will depend on EBA negotiations.

[RedTBar]

A new system will be far more user friendly

That is information that is interesting.Twiggs how and where did you get that information from?

Carmen is an airline crew work system that Jeppesen has made.Twiggs has said that "Now CARMEN is actually JEPPESEN in a different incarnation".This is not strictly true.Jeppesen has made the program called carmen but there are many different parts to the program.

A simple analogy is that of a car.Jeppesen makes that car and you can buy the base model or you can buy the car fitted out with all the extras.

Our company has bought the base model at the moment which as Twiggs has said builds patterns.However,the company can buy extra modules to what ever they want.The cost though increases for each new module or program just as it does when you option up your new car.If you want leather seats in your new car it will cost you more and so do any extras the company may want if they want to have more control over the bidding.

What Carmen is capable of depends on how much the company wants to spend.If they spend big and buy the whole box and dice then they will almost certainly want trade offs to get their money back.They will not be spending money just so that we can have better rosters.

Remember the difference between what the company said about this bid system when it was announced and what we found out the hard way.

For Twiggs to say that the new roster system will be "more user friendly" is very interesting because only those in the company looking at this would know that.

Certainly the company would like us to think this way.

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"Certainly the company would like us to think this way."

Yes Twiggs, wouldn't they........?

[twiggs]

I have no idea what the company wants, I'm only a full time flyer.

[labia vortex]

So if you dont know Twiggs then you are just assuming.
Please..... just the facts,not assumptions.
Its hard to keep up with whats what without trying to sort what is assumption as well.

[twiggs]

So if you dont know Twiggs then you are just assuming.

What exactly am I assuming?

If it's that a new bidding software would be easier to bid with than a 20 year old system, then I'm guilty.

(and unrepentant)

[lowerlobe]

Twiggsy girl ,here you are and here is that hole again and it is only you doing the digging.

[twiggs]

Lobe, go forth and multiply.

[RedTBar]

Twiggs,
I think that last post of yours is totally uncalled for and deserves to be retracted/deleted.If you can't debate and explain yourself then don't bother posting.
Small wonder that most here believe that you are here to get the thread banned.

[gigs]

you guys may do well to read MAM and 747s tread on page 2 of cabin crew section on prune........."ITS JUMBO TIME" maybe there is something that can be done like, s/haul be able to sign up 2 l/haul faaa.........hello! cheers gigs

[speedbirdhouse]

Yes gigs the slide in conditions for ALL QF flight attendants could surely be halted if we we all represented by one STRONG union.

How that might be achieved however is beyond me.

[gigs]

jp helped set up mam, given what has been said on prune re. s/haul faaa and jp, how the hell the s/haul faaa is still here is beyond me! cheers gigs ps a little more than one union is what is required its the relationship between faaa and mam that is the problem!........at what stage shall it become your problem again!!!!!!!!????????:ugh:

[lowerlobe]

For any new attitude or amalgamation of unions to occur there would have to be a large amount of dissent amongst S/H crew.

For those S/H crew here what is the general feeling amongst your crew reagrding the S/H union and it's relationship with MAM?

If S/H are happy with their direction then there will be no amalgamation.

However, the idea of one union representing Australian based crew would have to be a win.

As Speedbirdhouse said how that will be achieved is anyone's guess.

FOT

[indamiddle]

s/h fly longhaul
l/h fly shorthaul
may as well have one union
re bidding systems
i don't have any confidence that a new bid system will work any better
than a 20 year old system and even less confidence that management
would know the difference...except where it concerns them.
FOG

[priapism]

Is there any way that parallel bidding runs be done using both systems over a few months so an accurate comparison can be done.? It would give the F.A's a fair comparison and give them a chance to get a grip on any different nuances with putting in a bid.

As an ex ansett blocking rep , when we switched over from a non Y2K compliant program to a Y2K compliant one we ran parallel runs , both to compare and test the new system.

[lowerlobe]

priapism...Your suggestion of running both systems together might work but only if the company could be trusted to fully exploit the new system and show you what they intend to do with it.

With any new software program the people running it do not have to use it to it's full capability and thats the problem.

With the CARMEN system it's capable of doing a lot more than the current system.

It's a bit like driving a new Ferrari and your old commodore ,sure you can drive them both at 60 km/h to prove they're as safe as each other but the Ferrari can also be driven at 250km/h when no one's looking

FOT

[mrpaxing]

what you put in the system (or take out). Red Tbar explained it in detail.
Management also wants to know the outcome of the eba before the can add limitation to the system.:ugh:

[Mr Seatback 2]

In case anyone feels bothered...take a look at the Tiger Airways Melbourne thread in the Cabin Crew forums, for an idea of what kind of selfishness we're all up against in the race to the bottom...

breathtaking...for all the wrong reasons...

[stubby jumbo]

Strewth Seatback...............you're not wrong.

Reminds me of watching an episode of Romper Room.

These people are "dreami'n" if they think that Tiger ( aka Temasek /aka SQ aka Singtel/Optus) are not going to drive them ( Tiger staff) to the brink.

The only ones who are going to come out ahead from the Tiger is the "equine flu-free" Punter.:uhoh:

[lowerlobe]

The part I don't understand is that so many people are willing to accept pathetic conditions for what?

Can someone tell me the attraction of working for a LCC for peanuts?

When I started flying it was a way of life and the beauty was that we were paid for it.

These days I can understand that people are caught with a mortgage,family etc... and cannot leave.Why though are people falling over themselves to join when they know what the pay and conditions are going to be like.

I also read the Tiger thread and romper room is an apt description.The talk there about pay better than J* and then argueing about it.

How will Tiger get market share and win against VB and J* and have lower fares if they pay more than VB and J*...To those thinking of working for them think about it.

I know of one person that joined J* and is having a hell of a time making ends meet.Yet they never seem to have problems getting people to join.

BTW..

FOT

[NSEU]

“we believe the overall package is comparable to other industries with similar skill sets such as cafes and restaurants”.

...and pilots have similar skill sets to bus drivers? :ugh:

[surfside6]

All this nonsense is just mindless posturing on the part of management.
Dixon for example has the skill set of someone sharpening pencils for the NRMA.
Joyce is a poster boy for those who failed the entrance exam for the boy scouts.
Anger management classes are recommended for both.
Makes you wonder what sort of childhood these two had.

[ScottyDoo]

take a look at the Tiger Airways Melbourne thread in the Cabin Crew forums

Reminds me of watching an episode of Romper Room

I also read the Tiger thread and romper room is an apt description

So there's a dedicated Cabin Crew forum??? Then why are you here!!????

Please put us out of our misery; listening to all this is a form of cruel and unusual punishment even Gitmo wouldn't be allowed to use, just for the sake of three or four individuals...

What did you do to get yourselves kicked out of there??? Just say you're sorry and you'll play nice.

[speedbirdhouse]

I've had a look at your previous posts scotty doo doo and seems you have some sort of obsession with FA's

How on earth would you occupy your miserable little life if we weren't here?

You'd have nothing to bleat about.

Speaking of "lives"

Ever thought of getting one?????

[ScottyDoo]

That's not very nice.

How on earth would you occupy your miserable little life if we weren't here?

We'll all know where to find you... :ok:

[Transition Layer]

ScottyDoo

What did you do to get yourselves kicked out of there???

For an idea of what might have got them kicked out, have a look at the nonsense going on in this thread on page 19 (yes 19 pages of the rubbish)!!!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275158&page=19

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

TL

[ScottyDoo]

Yes, I see. But why do we have to suffer it now????

[DEFCON4]

......if you dont like it dont read it....Doggy Doo Doo

[mrpaxing]

been very quite on EBA front. any news from the meetings?:hmm:

[DEFCON4]

The Company wants to play hard ball.....or at least give that impression.
Who will fly the A380?
Will there be a "B" Pay Scale?
Will the bid system be tampered with?
Fatigue legislation will play a big part in the determination of patterns and the maintenance of the slip formula.
OH ans S might actually grow some teeth.
Somewhere in the foreseesable future there wont be divisions....just one big happy family.
A good outcome for everyone with access to both short and long trips for all crew.
It would also get rid of /minimize low lines.
But most of all it would get rid of the destructive bitching.
Essentially every thing is still up for grabs...it depends upon the skill and determination of our negotiators.
I have faith in MM and SR.
They wont get done over like their predecessors.."The Three Blind Mice"

[packrat]

Seems no one in Long Haul wants it and Shorthaul are worried they might end up with it.
4 classes and 22 crew...no thanks Lesley
500 Pax...not Cabin Crew but Crowd Control

[speedbirdhouse]

I don't know anyone who will be putting up their hand to be part of the "elite fleet".:rolleyes:

Leave it to the "ideologically sound" [but operationally crippled] "yes" boys and girls I say.

For the first five years they'll be going only to LAX and LHR.

Seems like a much better idea to me to get a look at Dubai and Santiago towards the end of next year on the 744.:ok:

[twiggs]

If it ends up being dedicated crew for the A380, the decision whether to apply for it for me will be where it goes.
Speedbird is right to say it's destinations will be limited, especially at the beginning.
People who prefer LAX trips may have no choice but to apply for the A380, if that aircraft ends up being the dominant one on that route.
I think most crew don't care what equipment they are on (providing there is horoizontal crew rest), as long as they go where they want to, and all the teething problems should be sorted by the time we have a few A380's in the fleet.
Let the first round of keen applicants sort out the problems and then when the fleet expands, it will just be another aircraft.

[mrpaxing]

with most of the comments here. its going to be interesting what they will do with the A380. i cant see any reason to work for any less on it. i actually want to see a major increase in wages operating this aircraft (evantually).i believe LG just joined the million $ annual pay club. :yuk:and here they want us to cut back:}

[RedTBar]

There are always some people who want to have the first model of a new car ,i-pod or new mobile phone.In the same way there will be crew who will want to work on the new aircraft.There are crew who love to be seen in the office hanging around or should I say sniffing around hoping that they will get the nod if there is a dedicated crew for the 380.
Some might say that it's the destinations that are important and not the money.I think most crew don't care what equipment they are on (providing there is horoizontal crew rest), as long as they go where they want to, and all the teething problems should be sorted by the time we have a few A380's in the fleet.
This is missing the point especially with the new EBA.There are 2 points that need to be looked at.These are how many crew the company will want to operate the 380 with and how much our pay is.The new EBA is crucial especially if they want us to work more hours for less pay.
It doesn't matter if you are flying to London,Los Angeles or Launceston.You have to have enough money to live on.I know crew with J* and they almost have to have a second job or a well paying partner.Then there is the crew complement and if there are not enough crew to do the job then crew will give the 380 a big miss.
Destinations are OK while you are in a slip port but the reality is that you still have to pay a mortgage and other bills.The company as usual will be putting more spin on this than politicians during the Federal election.Real crew need more than a slip port.

[prunezeuss]

Its about terms and conditions not bloody destinations or Aircraft.
The A380 goes to Lax.
Big deal.Fly to SFO.
The 400s still have a lot of cycles left.I will stick with them.
I dont care who flies the A380 as long as it is not down to secondment.

[gigs]

ill say it again boys n girls mam casuals will work standby for nics ie.... in certain situations fixed lock in standby for free for 30% less on average of the start wage for s/haul f/as full time year one!(operating) no sick leave no holiday pay as wel and a lot of these kids by sense of comparison to their last job think its a great deal! think about your eba stuff think about who qantas will use? whos union is on whos side? newish kids experienced some what in flying presentable, young, and as aforementioned very very willing......add in a few of the office type badge excel super folk and you have a very very cheap crew.......ONE UNION IS THE ANSWER MM and SR. the long haul faaa good luck guys dickow grins very sly n cute as he will present these new stars with the big flag ship of the fleet!! dont be like scott on the funny movie (yah just dont git it do yah scott!) pls try to git it and help each division of qantas for all f/as cheers gigs

[twiggs]

Well the people who are used to living on 90K will have to find out how the ones on 60K get by.

[RedTBar]

It's the destinations that are important and it aint the money[/
QUOTE]

That is unless of course you are in management and in that case a pay cut is out of the question but Twiggsy is here to see if we will swallow that line.

Well thanks to the company rep here is what she actually said.
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by twiggs
I think everyone has lost sight of what this job is about, and it aint money.
It's about the destinations.

let's look at what she said
So she say's that we've lost sight of what the job is about and that the money is not what this job is about.

Then she say's this job is about the destinations

Twiggs is that what you said or NOT.
Maybe English is not your first or native language or as DEFCON said you are just a fool but to everyone else here you do not make any sense at all.

[twiggs]

Tbar if you are going to quote someone, don't make something up and put it in quotes.

[RedTBar]

Twiggsy,did you say that it was the 'destinations that was important and not the money' or was it someone else with the name Twiggs?

[twiggs]

No mate, that's not what I said.
You have gotta stop believing what lowerlobe writes.

Heres the actual post.
I think everyone has lost sight of what this job is about, and it aint money.
It's about the destinations.

I made no mention about what is more important, I was trying to highlight what brought us all to flying in the first place.

[gigs]

what part of twigssys comments are wrong.......again the figures 3400 odd f/as times 30000 cost savings is ??????? factor in 20% productivity factor in 20 to 30% expansion and you have ABOUT 1 BILLION DOLLARS MIN.on a 5 year plan minimum not even no sick leave etc......factored in and i am on your side again ONE UNION/ MAM are your friends or you make them your down fall cheers gigs

[DEFCON4]

Gigs there has been a lot of rubbish posted in these forums over the years.
Your last post has taken first prize as the greatest load of dross ever entered in these hallowed cyber halls.
Where do you conjure those figures up from?
The number of LH CC is now less than 3000.
The average LH CC base wage is less than 50k pa
Productivity increases where from and who from?
Expansion of that magnitude will be Group wide not from mainline.
Do some research before you put up such tripe for public consumption
For God Sake do something about your sentence construction

[DEFCON4]

You are,if nothing else entertaining.
You dont even understand the intent of your own posts.
Deductive reasoning suggests that if the job aint about money its about destinations then destinations are therefore more important than money.
If that is not what you meant,then review your thought process before your fingers touch the keyboard.
You are coming across as a complete fool.

[gigs]

utter bs what rock have you been under.......why do you think casual employees are here????? good luck dream boy for you and your familly. keep posting bs and i guess it will at least make some feal great for the short term! happy flying for now ps same crap we hear from you last time about cap on os bases..... my tip stick to tea n coffee n if mam scab on you dont complain you had your info number 2.

[DEFCON4]

Facts ,we need facts.
Not empty rhetoric and supposition.
Casuals are here for two reasons...
1.To cover the peaks and troughs of the dynamic industry we are in.
2.QF management are not clever enough to grow revenue.They therefore choose to cut costs to increase profit.
Read the current payscales offered by the company before you start being critical.
Lets see you quote them from a reliable source.
Not from thin air where you seem to derive most of your (dis)information.
Do you really work in this industry?

[gigs]

if the average l/haul fa has a base below 50k then if you want to talk smoke n mirrors we can go there all day coffee guy.......the figures twiggs says love her or hate her are for what an employer has to pay out are for the purpose of debate at minimum correct. fact...sorry.....what your wants are compared to mine seem to be at a loss to me given the fact that i desire fair play and equal rights for all in the industry i work in.......what your needs are compared to mine are of course a good income.....my debate if you care to read it shows the lower end of the scale starts at zero compared to big money and to that end its obvious that to help the bottom shall help any fall you may experience, agro and incorrect negative info as in the faaa tread contributed by you helps nobody but your ego mr work friend....my figures you should know are in the range of projected figures... please now go on and type what ever nonsense you may ive said what i wanted to say to continue in this debate with you would be as infantile as my typing style smarty panties! cheers gigs

[RedTBar]

It's no wonder that the company get's away with everything they do.We have a post from someone who continually tries to distance herself from her own posts by
Refuting her own posts.
Telling us she was being sarcastic.
Telling us that she is being taken out of context.
She had her fingers crossed behind her back so whatever she said is not binding.

Now she's telling us she never said that the money is not as important as destinations and is stupid enough to even re-post her original comments.

Her latest whopper in a long line of whoppers is that we will/should have to take a 30% pay cut.

As DEFCON4 said she is entertaining but after this statementWell the people who are used to living on 90K will have to find out how the ones on 60K get by.I understand why Lowerobe thinks she is in the office.We are coming up to our latest EBA negotiations and we have a supposed crew member telling us to take a 30% pay cut.

Does anyone know someone in their line of work that suggests that they should take a 30% pay cut.

Our job is more than just slipping in some port it is about being able to pay our bills and put food on the table.I notice that Twiggs/the company like nothing more than to tell people in a public forum that we earn huge amounts of money.To anyone reading this that is not crew this is a load of manure.If crew could bring home 90K no one would ever leave.

The company as usual still tries to put out this absolute rubbish in order to reduce our pay and conditions.

[twiggs]

I have not said we should take a 30% pay cut.
60k-90k is the approximate range of what long haul crew earn now- the lower end being the juniors who can't get the money trips.
This is a problem for us because there are people doing the same hours earning 60k as others earning 90K.

T-Bar get original mate, re-hashing lowerlobes comments shows how pathetic you really are.

Defcon, deductive reasoning? You are a bigger fool than anyone here.

[RedTBar]

Let's just ignore the company's pathetic attempts to put their spin on our pay and conditions with these absurd claims.I am fairly senior and if I could make 90K a year I would be rapt and so would my family.What planet are you from Twigs,is there nothing you people in the office will not lie about.

If you read into this insane womans latest post you can see what the company is trying to do.This time it is the rostering and seniority system.

It never ceases to amaze me what absolute rubbish the company will come up with.
First it is the destinations that are more important than money.Tell that to my family that they have to eat sausages and mince because I am able to fly to LAX.As I said she was stupid enough to even reprint her own original post.
They are also telling us that the new rostering system will be more user friendly than the current one.Yep,I'm going to believe that after working for them for this long.
They told us and the Industrial commission the current system was the best in the world and thats why they wanted and needed it.Now they are telling us it is basically flawed and doesn't work and needs to be replaced.
You cannot trust or believe anything these clowns tell us.The industrial commission must groan with pain everytime they hear that the next case involves our company

Our job is more than flying to and from a slip port it's about living and being able to do the things that normal people do.That means having SOME money in the bank and enjoying life with your family and friends not living in an aluminium or carbon fibre tube and walking around somewhere because the company thinks that shopping in LA or London is the most important thing in life.

Twigs you are not my mate and never will be and calling someone mate does not make you sound like a guy.it's nearly 8.30 am and I'm sure you have a meeting with LG or some clause 11's to give out.

[RedTBar]

Interesting reading from the QFUK thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3589117#post3589117

Read the post about the interview process in LHR.

[surfside6]

Could you two provide evidence to back up your assertions?
You both seem to make up disinformation as you go along.
Go along to an FAAA meeting and get the real truth.
Then you can come back here and join the debate with some relevant facts.
Gigs,sorry but you appear to be barely literate.
Do you work in the aviation industry?
You havent answered that question yet.
If you do...what do you do?

[gigs]

no sir we are not related......try reading my "illiterate" posts, i work in planes as you do big fella for,a lot less bucks! thats why if you take n read what i write n look at v big picture you may get my message i am your friend not enemy.....pls spare me crap on v engrish lessons or any call button or capt cynical bs as posted on heated posts here before......end of transmission.

[surfside6]

You work in planes?
So you could be an engineer,aircraft caterer,aircraft cleaner or ground staff.
You work for a lot less bucks...a lot less than who?
Give us clear precise facts or change your name to the "riddler"

[packrat]

My wife is part time B First and she does not earn any more than 30k pa.
I am full time and I earn a lot less 60k .
You are talking through your sphincter as usual.
You talk about same hours but less pay.
That means an individual has chosen to do shorter higher hour trips in order to spend more time at home with their family.
Allowances are not part of your wage(as you say ad nauseam)so dont calculate them as part of FA remuneration for the purposes of debate.

[gigs]

pay means to me what an employer pays ie. base plus plus plus do you really want me to tell the public the full facts? get a grip!.......im trying to tell you guys the way qf mgr think and what they will do.........what i want you guys to do is lobby for s/haul to go to l/haul one union....dig! me on your side of the sand box......end of trying to debate with people who only earn 30k a year and fly with who? tigar j/star mam bnk base?

[twiggs]

The 90K figure is from the mouth of a current union rep.
It's the top of the scale, yes includes allowances, but that's how it was said to me.
So your 60K becomes 75K+ with allowances so you are in the middle.
I don't like including allowances in wage calculation but this is how it is done these days.

[surfside6]

Depending on how you feel and the point you want to make allowances are either included or not.
Superannuable wage for a bluecoat is around 45K,for a CSS its 51k and for a CSM its around 60k.
The most a bluecoat can earn doing 6 direct LAX per BP is 93k.
Others can earn more by doing extra work and falling prey to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
So which is it Twiggs?
Make up your mind and stick with those figures
PM me the reps name and the context of the conversation please

[packrat]

My less than 60k per pa is WITH allowances...lots of PER day trips and overnights

[DEFCON4]

With wages you have choices...no time at home lots of bucks and higher tax.
Less bucks higher hours more time at home or something in the middle.
All this about the average being 90k is tosh.
No one wants a pay cut.
These negotiations are all about maintaining our current Tand Cs for the next 5 years.
Those that are proud of doing more for less are in need of help.
No sane person negotiates down.
The A380
The bid system
The slip formula
Wages
Ultra long range flying and the associated conditions
These are the core issues.
All this tooing and froing is just white noise.
Focus on what is urgent and then focus on what is important later.
I am sure there are those that will not understand the distinction

[twiggs]

OK so that confirms it, surfside says 93K is the top end and packrat is just under 60K.

Defcon, 90K is top end NOT AVERAGE, concentrate will ya.

[RedTBar]

DEFCON4 your right there are core issue which we have to keep focused on.There are people who will try and sidetrack us or attract the public's attention to some massive figures we are supposed to make.Does anyone know of crew that would want to publish such ridiculous figures?Only the company would want to print pay packets with OT and allowances built in.

The bottom line is that our pay should not be looked at with OT and allowances.It does not matter if we do one LAX or 20 ,our basic pay is what we should focus on.What happens if we are sick or stuck on StandBy's?90K my backside,what a load of rubbish.

After a bit of research I found this.The correct term is REMUNERATION and I don't consider meal allowances as such.
Those that do are part of the problem.

I won't bother telling you who made that post but when it suits her she posts these ridiculous amounts with everything added in and with an inflated imaginary amount to boot.Now why would a real crew member want to do something like that in a public forum.

[surfside6]

Get with the programme numbnuts.
93k is what is POSSIBLE not probable.
The average is achieved by multiplying the total wages bill for one calender year and dividing by the total number of crew employed and working in the same calender year.
The average you petulant pratt would be somewhere sround 65K
If you know what a bell curve is you will understand that there will be those that earn less and those that earn more.These numbers diminish on either side as you move away from the average.
To further explain there may be 100 CC who earn 30k or there may be 100 who earn above 90k.
The other 2800 earn something in between with most earning 65k including allowances and around 15% less without allowances.
This only confirms that you have no understanding of what is important but rather labour over petty nonsense

[twiggs]

Once again surfside, I DID NOT SAY 90K WAS AVERAGE, I said it was top end, ie what some people earn doing certain trips.

Thanks for quoting me correctly this time T BAR, like I said, I don't like it, but that's the way everone talks, so if you can't beat em...

[RedTBar]

Give it a rest girl you can only changes horses mid stream so many times.You have shown your true colours and they are not the same as ours.

The only aim here is to broadcast these inflated figures for the general public to see and it is not a coincidence that our EBA is currently being negotiated.

What did someone say about the similarity of someone's credibility to that of a rugby league scrum!

[mrpaxing]

children as your behaviour belongs in the kindergarden. we all know there are various pays out there, depending on your flying (senority & choice). thats it.
get on with it

[prunezeuss]

The "Twiggs Bird" is an endangered species that flies in circles of ever decreasing radius until it eventually disappears into its own rectum in a cloud of purple smoke.
How many more revolutions has this one got to go?
The "Gigs Bird" is also known as the Winky Wanky Bird.
It has a thin membrane of skin that runs from its left eyelid to its foreskin.
So that every time it winks it wanks and evertime it wanks its winks.
Probably explains the poor sentence construction and the nonsense it spews forth.

[gigs]

kids still dont get it do yah! good luck with your eba if mam crews your flights dont try to say i did not warn you all.....including miss shawanka's last post......you all have been told a basic indication of projected cost savings of having cheaper crews crew traditioal l/h flying including foremost the 380.......you have been prewarned re scabs....all this is only to ask that to assist this not happening is to lobby that s/h can join l/haul inion to help us help you......fxxxxxk you guys dont need geoff to fxxxk you over your all doing a great job on your own...... if a f/a earns 50k a year pls slip money the slip money is tax free,id have to earn the equal of 75k to make up my s/h pay in the real world and im paid less than you for more productivity.....no i voted no to reginal....again good luck.....why you guys attack is beyond me maybe strike breakers is all fun n games for you all????????????? gigs an faaa member s/haul f/a who does attend meetings and hates typing , spell check n idiots.

[Zeus Ex Machina]

You add nothing to this thread.
No facts.You state the obvious.You are confused.
This is a L Haul Negotiation.
You are Shorthaul
You have already been done over
No wonder!
A goose on the loose.
Take your own advice

[gigs]

squawk squawk squawk ill leave you all to romper room

[lowerlobe]

Has anyone heard of the FAAA survey results?

[DEFCON4]

676 Crew have voted
Results so far....82% would like to keep the bid System

[seatedandsecured]

gigs i am embarrassed that a shorthaul fa responds in this forum the way you have. As a s/h fa i give respect to my l/h work mates and let them work out their own EBA.Where do you get off telling them what to do? And at a guess i would say you are not senior and have no background to support many of your posts that i have read on here.No matter whether you are l/h ,s/h ,mam ,which base everyone has their own agenda and you need to respect that.................then you can expect respect back in return

[stubby jumbo]

82% want to keep the bid system.:\

This is just what the Tarantula wants to hear.

Because it fits in with their Management philosophy :

GIVE THEM THE EXACT OPPOSITE TO WHAT THEY WANT!!!!.

Roll on the ALLOCATED BID SYSTEM aka the UK base system ( and what we had prior to '88)

Doh !:uhoh:

[lowerlobe]

and what we had prior to '88

Except for the 75% standown rounded up of course.....

Is it true that the crew on the LHR base have to be contactable 24 hours a day on days off ?

I don't mean that they have to work but that the company has to be able to communicate 24/7 with crew on days off.

[stubby jumbo]

Yes 'Lobe ............ how could I forget !!!

11 day LHR trip = 8-9 days off aahhhhhhhhhhhhh.

The G-O-D's

Don't get me started;)

[lowerlobe]

Stubby...Not only the 75% stand down but the slip both ways in Bahrain and the 'OLD' slip in LHR with 3 days and 2 nights and then finally 2 days in Sin.

BBQ's on Sentosa Island and an exchange rate of between 2.5 and 3 to 1 in Sing

Remember change alley?

I had almost forget the porter at the Ramada in Bahrain...'Bandit' and the sunshine breakfast 24 hours a day at the Gulf.

As you said the GOD's...

[captainrats]

I have lived under a misconception for years...I thought he was Thai and his name was "Pandit".
Just goes to show you are never too old to learn.
Good Luck with the EBA boys and girls.....I think you are going to need it.

[lowerlobe]

captainrats....

I knew he wasn't a local and maybe his name was Pandit but I called him Bandit ( I thought it was a nick name for some nefarious reason) but you've got me thinking now..Anyone else know his name?

[stubby jumbo]

Speaking of that LHR trip go mr thinking of the other "gem" of a trip.

The 16 day STATES trip.


SYD-NAN. ( Plantation Is for 2 days )
NAN-HNL ( Ilikai -love it -top of the "I" on Sunday 'arvo's-a few hundred Buds- "fall in love"-watch the sun rise )
HNL-LAX. 2 nights-Redondo
LAX-PPT 2 nights-Beach Cricket with Air N Z crews till....'late.!
PPT-LAX.3 nights-feel like a trip to Mexico
LAX-HNL. 2 nights-Hamburger Marys
HNL-SYD. Hi Darling I'm home ...........Gee it was a tough trip !!!:oh:

[radiation junkie]

Yes, they were good fun, but as many of us, I was young and single, every trip was a party! We all enjoyed 2 x 5 day slips in Athens and fun on the greek islands... Now, after 28 years and 51 years young, with wife and high school/Uni age kids etc.... I really do not want to be away for 16 days or 21 days. My priority is to be home weekends etc and enjoy time with my family. Am I being selfish..... or after 28 years of loyal service to Q, do I deserve to retain a little dignity and a modicum of choice in my last few years at Qantas ? I hope so....

[qfcabin]

Bandit was the name

[lowerlobe]

Stubby..Yeah,they were great trips.Hamburger mary's..mmmmmmm

Radiation Junkie...Don't let the company know that or they will increase the length of the trips.

qfcabin..Thanks for that....I was worried that my memory was slipping.

[surfside6]

As much as it is an anathema it would appear that a "B" payscale is on the agenda.
Current Employees maintain their salary while future employees are offered T and Cs similar to Jetstar.
Probably not reasonable but under the circumstances practical.

[twiggs]

It does seem to be the only way we will get new full time Australian based employees.
It would certainly be light at the end of the tunnel for the juniors who have had no progression, providing a form of seniority bidding is sustainable.

[gigs]

re post 114 from missey seated etc.... i have told nothing but requsted assistance from l/haul to arrest possible stop to any stop work meeting etc from qf management. as has happened before...in their interests first!.... in wht agenda do you refer to is uncertain to me, i assume you could be a union rep from s/haul??????? as to negativity re my posts i question as to who is or has been a f/A eg. lowerlobe seems yes daar!!many seem ??? and as to twiggs she or he has something to contribure to this forum which i for one enjoy reading i dont think she or he is a seat polisher from qcc many of whom i am told read this forum including the aviation and general press....... happy landings LAST post from me on this thread cheers gigs.

[lowerlobe]

gigs...I for one agree with you that it would be far more preferable to have one union representing cabin crew.

It is also fairly obvious that one of the unions by it's own admission has a cosy relationship that some of us find interesting to say the least.

However,if you made your posts a little more easy to read you would be able to make your point.One possible reason may be is that you are prolific with SMS texting and you use that same technique here.

[mrpaxing]

it appears that by early next year the geniuses in qf cabin management will have akl based csm's css's. should make interesting cross crewing:rolleyes:

[RedTBar]

What we need is an office informant,someone who has their ears picking up everything which is said in the office.Someone who knows 'things'
Someone who's name starts with 'T' :E

[mrpaxing]

to see some humor back here.:ok:

[radiation junkie]

Yep, the EBA8 negotiations will certainly be full of humor, a real "Stand-Up" show.
Let's hope we are all still laughing when it's done !

[indamiddle]

a certain f/a stabbed in the back of the neck with a wooden stake by pax into tassie has pulled the pin in mel l/h base. with loss of seniority due crew ex lhr base coming to mel his last roster was 11 mel-per-mel returns.
has gone to virgin!

not the only junior to have resigned recently in mel. f/a i spoke to said more to come, mel junior crew very depressed, sick leave up, now using syd crew again to cover sick leave. who would transfer to mel when even the lax are operated by akl crew

[RedTBar]

The problem here is that we work for a company that does not believe that it's staff need to be happy.

Do you think they care about anyone in the Mel base or any base for that.GD's idea of light at the end of the tunnel is that we will have to pay for our jobs and not only that we are cost neutral but a source of income.

[stubby jumbo]

You can bet your balls that Qf mangement would be spewing :yuk: about the rise of sick leave in the MEL base.

Haven't they got Lurch in their ranks now ???

The Visitor KPI's are all based on a number .....that number is the avg number of sick leave days to be taken per person per year. If they don't reach their target.....no bonus:D

As the unemployment numbers go down and down............this will put even more pressure on the 'negotiators" to come up with the goods. Now that Tiger, Virgin, Virgin-Int, JQ and the new EK base in SYD ( in 2008) are all in growth -mode..........where does this leave QF and the A-380. If those goons think they will be paying these crew peanuts for the "priviledge" to work on the "flying RSL club"......forget it !!!

As each day passes -Dixon will come to realise that the Human Resources required to work on his dream fleet of 787's and A-380's are going to need lots of Techies and lots of CC. They will go elsewhere if the T & C are crap-stuff the icon bit. Its survival of the fittest.

The day of reckoning is coming for Dixon. But hey-why should he worry?. He'll be back at Wagga pulling beers and having a punt on the dish lickers sooner than we think-Amen to that:D

[mrpaxing]

not only is the mel crew being sh**ted but according to my sources there will be several training classes in akl in the new year. the word is around 300 new f/a's. doesn't take much to figure out where they going to fly to/from.
GD doen't really give a toss about the delays of the 787. if anything he can fly the older aircrafts longer therefore maximising profits. he is in caretaker mode for his last 18 month-speak dont upset my legacy:ugh:
the f/a (who incidently was the only one who got the only chairmans award in qf) did go to virgin. reason being the flying out of melbourne and more MONEY in virgin. go figure working for a low cost carrier making more money working less then for the so called premium carrier. :ugh:

[indamiddle]

rumour says a bit of a cockup with 747-300 at avalon
has stuffed up the blue painted one and it may not be
coming back online. possibly some relief for mel l/h crew
from mel-per-mel patterns. how many classics are still
flying, excluding ones being cannibalised?

[mrpaxing]

:ugh:the blue one in avalon has been stripped of spares to the bare minimum. its never going to fly again. old news. as for the rest of the 743, they are going to continue on the domestioc runs as the 787's are delayed.:ugh:

[speedbirdhouse]

I note with interest that QF have cancelled and rescheduled EP training for Longhaul cabin crew during the month of December.

A situation that will ensure that NO Longhaul crew would be in a position to see who is being trained in the EP department for a full month.

Maybe QF wish to avoid paying penalty rates for having to train during the midnight hours?:rolleyes:

This highly unusual event is reminiscent of actions that were taken by QF during the lead up to our last EBA and involved buses with blacked out windows, secret passwords, bald faced lies and King Gee uniforms for strike breaking crew.

Shades of 3 years ago perhaps???????????

------------

Further info that has come to hand suggests that not all EP training courses have been cancelled however there will only be a dozen or so for the month.

Anyone know why??

[surfside6]

A chronic shortage of LH CC.
No one on temporary partime was awarded a partime roster for 254 and no one wil receive a partime roster for 255.
All training and/or leave that is deemed unecessary has been cancelled for both BPs.
No LSL wi be awarded for either BP

[H_Girl]

Are you saying that some EP's have been cancelled for December? Is this just for Sydney base or is it Melbourne as well?

[cartexchange]

yep something going on as two crew members on my last flight though it strange that their EP's that are due to expire on the 31.12.07 now have an expiry date of 31.01.08.

[ScottyDoo]

their EP's that are due to expire on the 31.12.07 now have an expiry date of 31.01.08.

My apologies. I meant to say I don't think that is correct. :)


(Edited by Tail Wheel as Scotty is on a few days leave! :} )

[mach2male]

If your recency has expired...you dont go to work.
The guys you talk about may have annual leave for the entire month of January 08

[cartexchange]

great words of wisdom from scotty p() ()

[stubby jumbo]

..................'any truth to the rumour that the FAAA Industrial Officers are now called the new VISITORS.

Word is that there is just a bit of tension going down at the bunker between MM and the latest recruit ( Boy Wonder). In fact he has been overheard-referring to MM and Guardian as "very unpleasant -type":mad: people. Already Tarantula reckons this will turn out to be an Ace card for QF !!!

The latest piece of correspondence from MM just had just a faint wiff of paranoia.:ouch:

Don't be distracted boyz..........the main game is about to begin.


Also,have a gander at this item from Bloomberg:

"Japan Airlines announced plans (12-Oct-07) to implement a voluntary early retirement programme for flight attendants, ground managers and generalmanagers who have completed at least 15 years service, as part of its restructuring programme. The carrier plans to reduce personnel costs by USD425 million p/a compared to FY2006 through a combination of a 10% productivity increase, suspending new hiring and not replacing retiring staff, in addition to the implementation of special early retirement
programmes."

If the Rat brought in this..................half the operational staff would be out tha door

[kavakid]

Can we get this FA fourm moved to maybe a FA bulletin board I think most pilot's have had enough of these over paid under worked biscuit chuckers

[back2front]

kavakid - and we have had enough of overpaid, underworked, demanding, bus drivers

[DEFCON4]

MM + Difficult = passion
MM+ Paranoia= caution
I am confident my/our future is in good hands

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"I am confident my/our future is in good hands"

----------

As am I.

[mrpaxing]

your points in self promotion lets get back to the maingame. any news on the mile long comapnies wishlist for the EBA??
whats the story behind the latest email from MM? sound slike he is a bit paranoid about some guys trying ( i think it is in regard to a fatigue survey??????), to get some support. must admit the current guys haven't done much about **** patterns. i recently flew with some not so senior CSM's and they are contemplating handing in the coat as they are fed up getting s**t flying and no prospect of moving up in the chain:ugh:

[surfside6]

Please provide us with your solutions to all the perceived ills regarding QF LH CC.
Now is not the time to introduce red herrings into the equation
Introduce fatigue into the arena and you will provide an opportunity for airlines to implement compulsory retirement at 10 years.
The authors of the email would scream the loudest!
Careful what you wish for kiddiesl

[mrpaxing]

having a look at the email. can anyone pm me:hmm:

[Brisvegasboy]

Anyone heard anything regarding the above??

Apparently the union is currently in negotiations.....

[mrpaxing]

brisvegas has too many, melbourne not enough, syd is about right. unless there is a major expansion (what aircrafts????). lets not forget there are 300 plus kiwis start training in the new year.:confused:

[indamiddle]

if 300 kiwis start training at the start of the year qf will have to
train another 300 at the end of the year as replacements. the
attrition rate at the akl base is awesome.
only way to get mel numbers up is direct employment into the base.
who would transfer there? 3 day hkg, 3 day sin, per returns. most of
the lax trip crew slots taken by other bases including kiwis. crew better
off short haul but cannot transfer out of longhaul, e.g. GK, resigned

[mrpaxing]

indamiddle, but as you know the powers in syd don't give a toss about turnover. if anything it makes it look good on paper, if you use the 30% kiwi revolving door,30% Lhr revolving door, gives the overall impression over all bases there is movement.:ugh:

[twiggs]

It's all about the B pay scale for new employees.
If we can get that in our new EBA then we will get new f/t Aus based crew. (but on a lower rate than us)
Solves the seniority problem and hopefully removes the need for AKL, BKK and LHR bases, and maybe even get some of our regional flying back from S/H.
That is what the union are trying to negotiate.

[mrpaxing]

akl/lhr going any time soon:ok:

[blueloo]

Have you guys incorporated a pay rise for the new DOB in a tech crew when the leave the A/C?

The more you DOB the higher the bonus?


:ugh:

[RedTBar]

blueloo,

Dob in a tech crew ?
They have always got off as soon as the parking brake is on and the company has never done anything about it.Or is there something new that has happened?
The company does like dobbers so tell us.

Mrpaxing,Your right about the bases.The company is like some addict and will not give up their habit easily and they will not want to admit any false cost saving or hidden cost because of the high crew turn over.

[indamiddle]

tech crew are expected to remain on board for the same reason crew are.
i.e. an emergency evac during disembarkation such as the qf 6 at SIT.
in practice they don't, try standing @l2/r2, except where they have same
transport to same hotel in slip ports

[Bazzamundi]

Perhaps we should 'dob' on them when they start boarding before we get there?

Or perhaps we could 'dob' on them for a lot of things. Like only being able to get a drink at up to 4 hours interval accross the Pacific.

Personally however, they can 'dob' all they like and I for one will never bother lowering myself to that level of petty behaviour.

[kkmm]

afew pages back you were discussing salary. Is that for australian based crew only? How much would auckland based long haul crewn earn on average.

Thanks

[RedTBar]

Bazzamundi,
I agree with you totally.I thought this was a joke at first .The company has got this fetish for dobbing and I don't know what on earth they think it achieves.I get along with most of the drivers and the current ones are a lot better than the last of the ex ww2 ones when I started.

It is un Australian and if you have a problem with someone then sort it out between the 2 of you.What happens up the track stay's there and the company does not need to know.

[Bazzamundi]

Thankyou for restoring my faith Red T. This whole scenario has me thinking of retirement.

It is true that many tech crew have been reported already for leaving when one or two wheelchair passengers are on board. From a practical perspective, when arriving in LA recently, the ground handlers turned up with 2 less wheelchairs than required. 3 pax were still on board for what would be about another 5 or so minutes. It was good to see common sense apply and at least half the crew go down and begin the customs process. Had we all waited till the very end, we would have all arrived at the immigration counter at the same time, and would have been about 5 or 10 minutes later getting to the hotel and off to sleep. All this after a 17.5 hour duty due to delays out of Syd.

Even with some of the wankers in both ranks we have had in the past, it has always been a general consensus that crew do what is best for each other without compromising passenger comfort and safety. Does this dobbing process really achieve anything other than angst among crew?

No I have never barged out in front of the pax as I don't personally believe it sets a good impression, but when people are straggling, there are only one or two left onboard wasting time, then sometimes I do go.

As for dobbing, well it is sad days indeed. And even sadder crew who participate.

[blueloo]

Personally I think its disgraceful (unless there is a real safety issue is at hand).

The people who have generated this culture have done it for a reason.

What they hope to achieve I cannot guess, because it is destroying goodwill and harmony amongst crew.

What usually or will end up happening is a pissing match between two groups who are meant to work as a team.

[speedbirdhouse]

It will be a sad day indeed when operational staff turn on each other in Qantas.

WE are Qantas, both a family and community of like minded professionals.

Yes, QF management are doing ALL in their power to foster and encourage this poisonous culture.

At all costs resist it.

And remember who the real enemy is..............:ugh:

[radiation junkie]

Yes as CC I have also "left the building" before all the stragglers shuffle off, with a CSM OK.

Agree with all your comments, but

.....Like only being able to get a drink at up to 4 hours interval accross the Pacific.....

I hope that was a joke Bazzamundi , you know that is untrue.

Unless you do a lot of AKL - LAX sectors, where I cannot vouch for the "jitcunnict" cabin crew !

[Bazzamundi]

It has happened, it was a Sydney LH crew, and I dealt with it by making my feelings known to them, as opposed to going back to management and telling tales.

It is a much simpler way of doing things.

[travel thickness]

Why do we always have to go down this path.?
Have a couple of mates who are QF Pilots..we were having a drink in FRA a few years ago and crossed the path of some CC from another QF crew...what a rude bunch of tossers.We had some words and they departed.
Imagine the looks on their faces when I fronted up for transport the next night.We had a private briefing about their behaviour and an apology was offered in SIN a day later.
There will always be boofheads around irrespective of which uniform they wear
.Fortunately they are a minority.
Lets not give them any more air than they deserve.

[mrpaxing]

moving along...........:rolleyes:

[lowerlobe]

Oh well...This was a good discussion until Scotty Poo with the inevitability of a recurring medical condition like Gout showed up again.

You have to understand that Scotty Poo does not want us here and so tries to incite trouble.So as the previous 2 posts suggest.....ignore the fool

..When was Halloween:}

[lowerlobe]

To get back to the subject I agree with the others about the dobbing culture that the company seemingly encourages.

To dob someone in to the company only increases mistrust between the different sections of the company and helps the company in it's goal of preventing a unified workforce.

The only one to benefit from snitching is the company.

[BongleBear]

hi guys, wondering if anyone can help...

my girlfriend got the job as cabin crew with qantas the other day, passed her medical and is now waiting for a start date. it would be based at heathrow. any ideas when the courses are starting? shes been told its probably jan/feb time. any pm would be much appreciated.

many thanks,
b.bear

[surfside6]

Thread Drift.
Come on folks this is about our EBA which incidentally expires next month.
This negotiation will be a watershed and will have an enormous impact on our job and its its T and Cs.
For many of us it will mean the difference between staying and leaving.
I love what I do but I have a family and our future expenditure and plans are predicated on my current income.Any downward change particularly on income will have a negative impact on my family's lives.
So please can we get back to the EBA discussions?

[speedbirdhouse]

but rather how many hours we will be expected to work to earn it.

Any increase in hours worked will impact on our quality of life and for me this is more important than the dollars.

I respect that others may feel differently but I'm in the job for the long haul.

[Chris21]

Any thoughts on who will fly the A380? was told by an AKL crew member that a seperate labour hire company will be set up shortly to employ crew on AWA to only fly the Airbus initally to LAX .

Surely would cause more division between long haul crew and management but you anyone think this is true..

[stubby jumbo]

BINGO !:D

This rumour has been doing the 'rounds for the last 12 months.

Next ???

[mrpaxing]

it looks like the faaa has all but conceded conditions in the current eba negotiations. reading the article in the fin review yesterday i looks like MM gets a big bonus as well. he basicially agrees with everything qantas wants:ugh::{:rolleyes:

[cartexchange]

that article in the Fin Review left me aghast!
I simply cannot believe that the FAAA has conceded defeat already!
MM hasn't flown for about 8 years now, he has lost all control, totally out of touch. he has to go!

[silvafox]

Are you able to post the article or link to it?

[lowerlobe]

cartexchange.......Do you have any info.

The web site just say's something about a 'B' scale but you need to be a subscriber to get any more info......

What else did MM give away?

[cartexchange]

lower, I didn't read on line, it was in yesterdays Fin review, we read it on board.
it was quite interesting seeing the crew reaction.
the FAAA leadership should muzzle MM, he is fast becoming a megalomaniac, just look at the newsletters he has been publishing!

[cartexchange]

Recently One of the FAAA newsletters was advising crew about unpaid mini bars!
I thought that was the job of the QF visitors, why is the FAAA doing their job.
what a waste of membership funds!
what is going on in that bunker!

[DEFCON4]

You bunch are amazing!
Since when are media reports accurate?
Qantas advertises heavily..... particularly in the print media.
Reports are always going to be biased.
Want the truth?...ring MM and ask him.
This is a difficult negotiation and QF management would like nothing better than to have crew lose confidence in the FAAA.
Be a little more critical of what you read in the media and if you are worried..ring the union for clarification.
Stop being a bunch of Chicken Littles with a "sky is falling mentality"
Familiarize yourselves with the realities of the Aviation industry.
Let MM get on with his job.
Be assured if he capitulates he knows the consequences.
Passionate he is...stupid he ain't!!!!

[lowerlobe]

Was this article in the Fin Review an interview directly with MM or was it information from or through 'sources' ?

I would have thought that MM would have released a newsletter if he had done an interview with the paper and had released information to them or any third party.

[DEFCON4]

Make a bloody phone call!!!

[lowerlobe]

DEFCON4...Truth more often than not is a matter of perspective and what you want to achieve.

if you asked the company they will give you their version of the truth as they see it and the union will do the same and 9 times out of ten they will not be the same.This is because they have different agenda's and want others to see a different perspective.

History is littered with examples of "both sides of the story".So to simply say ring the office will only give you one side of the story.

What I find interesting is that if MM gave some statements to the paper you would think he would have put out a newsletter explaining those quotes or his version if he believes he was taken out of context as the media is prone to doing.

[Eden99]

Defcon4 is right ...MM is not stupid.

The Fin Review arcticle was merely what was stated to the recent FAAA membership meetings. Pity some of you are like backyard gossips who rely and thrive on on hearing second hand gossip and stupid rumours.

It is obvious the likes of cartexchange and midnight63 didn't bother going to any of the 20 FAAA meetings that were held in September, where the FAAA strategy was being discussed in huge and precise detail.

The key message in the Fin Review was this " new starters at the airline will have to accept lower conditions and longer hours than the existing workforce. The battle this time will be making sure current crew do not go backwards while simultaneously ensuring it keeps receiving work from the airline".

Its interesting that MM is being criticised by some in here because he intends to protect all existing crew. Some of you guys are really ridiculous. And i guess some of you really believe in the tooth fairy too, because you assume what a writer says in a newspaper is gospel and accurate.

Before any of you criticise others, you should have actually attended the FAAA meetings so that you could actually understand the Fin Review story.

The quotes attributed to MM were in regard to trying to get new work for Long Haul and getting employment here, whilst protecting terms and conditions for EXISTING crew.

Im glad MM runs the FAAA and not some of the chooks that post in here.

[DEFCON4]

The Stupidity and Ignorance sometimes displayed in this forum have got to be QF Managements greatest allies.
In Australia there is no such thing as a reliable reputable tabloid.
Re Read some of the tripe that the Fin Review printed during the attempted private equity buy out.
The print media in australia is compliant ...period!!!!

[speedbirdhouse]

Cartexchange,

conversations I have had suggest that QF have had enough of settling the accounts of cabin crew who routinely don't pay their hotel bills and are going to start clause 11 proceedings against repeat offenders.

Maybe the FAAA don't want to have to waste valuable resources representing the interests of lowlife who won't put their hands in their pockets????

[cartexchange]

speedbird
yes you are correct.
But those idiots that dont pay their accounts on more than one occasions are on their own, they deserve a clause 11, however its up to QF visitors to chastise those crew.
Another Rumour has just started circulating maybe those in the know can shed some light on this:
Apparently MM has signed off on an "improved" crew rest for the A330 flying between LAX/AKL AND LAX/BNE but NOT horizontal rest as required.
I hope this is not true as nothing and I repeat nothing will upset the crew more than the lack of of horizontal rest on such long flights.
PS I did attend the FAAA meetings!

[mrpaxing]

attend the meetings. MM was very coy about answering a lot of questions. i understand the faaa does't want to give away too much, but i remind the boys in the "bunker" that families out here are doing it tough. and for being critisised about the fin article its a bit like that,decon & eden. last eba negotiations MM critised Gd and co on a number of occassions and made numerous public comments about the performance of qf. this time he agrees with basicially all the companies assesssments. hence, the perception and comments from crews he has his own agenda now. i did see the crews on our flight reading the fin review article and the comments made about the boys weren't too kind.:rolleyes:

[DEFCON4]

Whywould MM have his own agenda?
How would he benefit from that?
Where would you put horizontal crew rest on an A330?
You have Men in the FAAA and "boys"commentating
The "boys"(not men)are not happy.
The boys(not men)have never been kind or happy.
They sit on the sidelines, like armchair champions,telling Mohamed Ali how he should box.

[RedTBar]

Whywould MM have his own agenda?
How would he benefit from that?
Defcon4,
You would have to be naive to either ask your question or believe that it is not possible.You only have to remember Sheer Nylon to understand the concern of crew at a time like this.She certainly had an agenda of her own not to mention the 'cosy relationship another union has with the company and a labour firm'.This is not a time to resort to name calling and petty attempts to ridicule others.
The union should release a newsletter to explain their view of the article in the Financial Review.Communication is the key to preventing rumours and strengthen solidarity at a time when it is needed the most.
I see that with Edens response the faaa early warning radar system is working fine so why not put out a newsletter to quell any concerns that crew might have after reading an article like that.

[DEFCON4]

MM is not and never will be a rat like Sheer Nylon.
If the association put out a news letter every time one of the "boys" became a little nervous our mailboxes would be choked full.
Being naive is not part of my Vocab.I have a lot to lose like everyone else if these negotiations get screwed up.
Show some solidarity in this.MM's job is hard enough as it is.
He is passionate intelligent and qualified
Thats why he is doing the job and the armchair champions snipe from the sidelines.
This is all a bit like an under 7's soccer match on the weekend with beer bellied parents screaming at their kids from the sidelines.
The parents have never played soccer,dont even know the rules but they live their lives vicariously thru their progeny.
MMs job is a thankless one.
Bear that in mind next time you are ready to criticize.
You could of course stand for election to the FAAA.

[RedTBar]

Defcon,
If the association put out a news letter every time one of the "boys" became a little nervous our mailboxes would be choked full.
I was hoping for a reply with more substance.
I would hardly call an article about us in the Australian Financial Review a small matter.It was not in a local community rag or even a company media release but a respected paper.
But if the faaa does not feel the need to communicate with it's members I can see why some believe they are arrogant.Keep up the sarcasm and belittling comments about your members concerns because that is exactly the reason why Howard will lose this election,he is out of touch.

[surfside6]

What do you require?
Personal consultation on every newspaper article printed about our negotiations?
If you are so concerned make a visit to the FAAA office.Its now closer to the base making for better communication and ease of access to members.
Peruse the latest FAAA financial statement.Its the best set of numbers I have seen in nearly 25 years of membership.
Flowers with your personal copy have been arranged thru Interflora and will be delivered to your home within the next 24 hours.
Take A Valium and watch some reruns of Bewitched.

[RedTBar]

Your right Surfside this is just like Bewitched because it is a lot like re runs.
When anyone asks the union can you let us know what that was about all you get in response is sarcasm and arrogance.
"if you don't like it why don't you run at the next elections"etc.

How hard would it be for a newsletter on the faaa website or is MM too busy doing interviews for the media?

[surfside6]

I am not an FAAA official but I do trust them to do their job.
I do not require notification every time one of them farts.
If it necessary for the membership to have input on a decision then by all means put out a news letter.
Until such a circumstance occurs I have plenty of other things that require my immediate attention....my family,the upcoming federal election,interest rate rises,refinancing of loans and the reduction of household debt to name but a few.
Some posters here have way too much time on their hands

[cartexchange]

defcon at least you have clarified that the FAAA has given away any chance of horizontal crew rest on the A330. Totally unacceptable wait till the rest of CC hear about this one!
you asked where they would put it! well we had it on the SP remember, and the tech crew crew have a huge bedroom on the A330, its could easily be placed on the aircraft just like the SP......best you do your homework.

surf side you claim to be interested more in interest rates and household debts, well these things will be insignificant, if MM continues to make the statements that he made in the Financial Review and we lose everything! you wont be able to pay off any of these things, why are to trying to downplay or excuse what was said to the Fin review, this was serious stuff and inexcusable........telling the general public and anyone in QF that we are already prepared to lose pay and conditions! and work longer hours that was in the last paragraph........

[RedTBar]

Surfside,you might call it clarification but I call it communication and it does not take much effort in real terms.

I do not require notification every time one of them farts.

Is that how you describe MM's quotes or interview with the Fin Review?

[surfside6]

How much will horizontal crew rest on the A330 cost?
Get real..the company is not about to allocate seats for crew rest and lose revenue.
Negotiate and prioritize.
I spend a lot of my time on the Airbus and I would rather they fix up the freezing galleys.
This EBA is about survival and growth.Lets retrieve some of our lost flying and particpate in the growth that is rapidly coming to this part of the world.
Horizontal crew rest on an A330 is way down the list of priorities.
Try and see the big picture and dont drown in issues that dont directly contribute to our continuation.
While you are at it dont reinterpret my words.The syntax is mine.The meaning is mine and its clear to all but those who require a remedial reading course

[speedbirdhouse]

My understanding is that the A330 will be operating this sector as a temporary stop gap measure due to capacity constraints.

The decision to allow the sector to be operated without the horizontal crew rest was made because of the alternate workforce have no such provision in their award for it.

Think about it long enough and the penny might just drop.

[RedTBar]

Speedbirdhouse,I can see your point but remember when we gave away a crew member because of a temporary problem.
Did we get that crew member back?
We give away something and we have buckley's chance of getting it back.Unless there is a concrete concession from the company on another matter or agreement that this is only a temporary ruling.To be honest even then I don't trust the company not to exploit this concession.
GD and the company could not lie straight in bed if they wanted to.

SurfsideGet real..the company is not about to allocate seats for crew rest and lose revenue.
Negotiate and prioritize.

Or do you mean concede instead of negotiate?

How many times have we given in to the company with the line from MM "If we don't we lose our jobs"

What have we got in return?
They give our flying to S/H,enlarge the bases in LHR,BKK & AKL with no care of the EBA limit and total impunity.
They tell us we will not fly the A380
They continually try to erode our conditions and Dixon tells the press we are the most militant union in QF.

Let's hope that when we finally get our new EBA we will not have given away everything we have now.

[speedbirdhouse]

Yes, damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I imagine that the dispensation is of a temporary and route specific nature.

Your comments re the nature of QF management and dixon are of course irrefutable.

MM is of course driven by this understanding............

[cartexchange]

i think its about time MM resumes flying.
Its a refresher course he needs, he has obviously forgotten what its like after all its been 8 or so years in that bunker, no jet lag no night sectors no time zones to be crossed no IFE angry irate passengers to deal face to face and then having to go into the office and be presented with a bunch of KPI's

Surf side, are you serious, you would rather a warmer galley than horizontal crew rest!
that comment would go alongside twiggs's famous comment on this forum about "its the destination not the money" comment.
an absolutely absurd and insane comment!

[Guardian1]

It is always amusing to see hysterical and deliberately misleading comments posted in here by the usual suspects(Red T Bar and cartexchange), but it is also sad, because it either indicates a complete awareness of fact and regard for truth or alternatively indicates 2 individuals who deliberately attempt to mislead because they dislike the current competent leadership in the FAAA (namely MM and SR).
cartexchange asserts MM said the following in the Fin Review - "telling the general public and anyone in QF that we are already prepared to lose pay and conditions! and work longer hours that was in the last paragraph........ "
Cartexchange just demonstrates by that comment what a truly ignorant and limited individual he really is. At the FAAA meetings , which involved nearly a 1000 people , it was repeated several times at each of those 20 meetings that lower pay and increased hours were necessary to try and get work for Long Haul so that LH was not closed down. What was also repeated ad nauseum at the FAAA meetings,was that the FAAA would only agree to this for new starters, so that we could ATTEMPT TO get employment in LH, EMPLOYMENT THAT WILL NOT OTHERWISE MATERIALISE.
WHAT WAS ALSO CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY ALL THOSE 1000 PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED THE FAAA MEETINGS WAS THAT PAY, HOURS etc were going to be secured for existing crew, in the face of a probable Qantas onslaught.
It is a shame that only 2 individuals do not understand that concept, namely cartexchange and red t bar.
The reference in the FIN REVIEW is about new starters. Perhaps a remedial course in English and Comprehension would help cartexchange and red t bar to understand the Fin Review article. Alternatively, they might be able to buy a kids copy of the Gumby Bears and look at the pretty pictures, since obviously the Fin Review is way above their respective comprehension abilities.
It's heartening that the likes of SPEEDBIRDHOUSE, SURFSIDE6, EDEN , DEFCON4 etc actually reflect the vast majority of LH crew who actually understand issues.
In relation to the A330 it simply does not have horizontal crew rest and if the advice of cartexchange was followed and we rejected work, which others will gladly do, then the time of closure of LH and compulsory redundancy will be all that much more closer.
I suggest that people do not second guess MM or slur his very good reputation. It is a rare thing to have a person almost single handedly oppose EBA6 as he did in 2003, in order to protect our conditions. It was a shame more people did not heed him in 2003.
Lets wait and see what he delivers out of these negotiations before we slag off at him. The FAAA under him is the most effective, efficient and credible that it has ever been.
He is abley supported by Reed and Lam, both highly capable and competent.
Imagine if we had the likes of Broome, Brem, cartexchange and red t bar conducting these negotiations. What a pathetic joke that would be.

[Guardian1]

My previous post in the first para , read as follows "It is always amusing to see hysterical and deliberately misleading comments posted in here by the usual suspects(Red T Bar and cartexchange), but it is also sad, because it either indicates a complete awareness of fact and regard for truth or alternatively indicates 2 individuals who deliberately attempt to mislead because they dislike the current competent leadership in the FAAA (namely MM and SR)."


"complete awareness" should read complete lack of awareness.

[stubby jumbo]

Thanks Steven( Guardian)..............I realise that the Negotiations are in full swing. In fact Guardian I understand that there was some very substantial progress made-today!:suspect:

Agree , there is lots of emotion around, but hey, last time I checked we live in a democracy. At the end of the day we will all have a chance to vote on the outcome.

[funbags]

I sympathise with LH crew and what they will be up against in their EBA negotiations.

But the attitude - "it's only for the new joiners, it won't affect us, we'll be ok" is disturbing. I know there is already effectively a B,C, and D scale within long haul (with the AKL, LHR and BKK bases), but to hire full time Australian based crew on poorer conditions to protect current employees will only cause further problems down the track.

Good luck with it all! :)

[cartexchange]

eden, guardians and the pack!
well I like a 1000 other people attended the meetings and it was clear what was needed and agreed with the rest of the membership.
The Fin review article in the last few paragraphs did not reflect this view, we understood it to mean that MM had already conceded that existing LH crew would have to accept lower wages and longer hours! without even having started the negotiations!
Now regarding the horizontal crew rest 330, of course we know that it doesn't currently exist, but that is not to say that QF can put one in just like the SP.
I have done the AKL/LAX/AKL on the 747300 without horizontal rest and its horrendous, the fatigue factor is incredible. MM hasnt as he hasnt flown for 8 years!
So when will the FAAA put out a letter to the membership advising them of their decision not have the horizontal crew rest on this a/c!

[lowerlobe]

Funbags.....I understand what your saying but unfortunately for all crew there has been a precedent.

Those applying en masse for Cabin Crew with VB,J* domestic and international,MAM and now Tiger on conditions far below QF LH.

In fact I believe that the tech crew in S/H have had a 'B' pay scale for years for those that transferred from L/H.

You also had tech crew that have signed an agreement if they transfer to J* and those that went to AO also were paid less than they were with mainline.

To deny that is to deny your right to a future.I don't like it one bit as it only helps people like Darth but what can you do if there are crew happy to work under those conditions.Under the IR laws this is not isloated to avaiation jobs either.

As you said L/H already work with crew from various bases on conditions that are less than ideal.So what can the FAAA do about this fact?

In a word ....nothing because the flood gates have opened long ago.To suggest otherwise would be like expecting water to flow uphill.

Eden and Guardian, it's refreshing to see that in a world of constant evolution neither of you have changed.

Bravo, you played the union standover men as portrayed in the Liberal ads perfectly.

You responded as usual with sarcasm,infantile insults and arrogance.

There must have been a large number of crew that did not see the AFR on that day and would have heard rumours as crew normally do.

If you had the time to respond on PPrune then you had time to put out a one paragraph statement on the union website to allay any anxiety and put a stop to the rumour mill.

Nice one.....

[mrpaxing]

tiger is offering considerable more money then VB/J* and is close to QF SH.
they are swamped by applicants from J*/MAM/AKL base and others.
Guardian1 says"In relation to the A330 it simply does not have horizontal crew rest ". this is incorrect, there is a module available which can be permanantly fitted underneath. my concerns to a lesser degree are not for the 10 month or so the A330-200 flies between AKL-LAX but more for permanent long range sectors like SYD-BOM/ MEL-SHA and others to come. as mentioned the PRECEDENT has been set by the domestics but that does not mean we have to get along with it.if MM wants more regional flying back he has to consider these long term implications. ;) when is the next election? faaa that is;)

[twiggs]

So when will the FAAA put out a letter to the membership advising them of their decision not have the horizontal crew rest on this a/c!

Maybe if and when that decision is actually made, rather than speculated about on this forum which probably less than 10% of crew actually read.

[lowerlobe]

Maybe if and when that decision is actually made, rather than speculated about on this forum which probably less than 10% of crew actually read.

.............Uuuhhhhh... Hello.....Twiggs.....Hello.....Twiggs ......Isn't this supposed to be a rumour forum?

Do you know what speculate means?

Just in case I'll help you....

speculate |?speky??l?t| verb [ intrans. ] Form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence

[cartexchange]

twiggs they have made the decision, otherwise Guardian and Eden would be screaming like wild banshees if it wasn't true.
Good one lower, you hit it on the head when you compared the FAAA thugs to the liberal anti union ad, because that is exactly what they are, if you DARE have an idea or opinion that is different to them they will yell you down at union meetings or never return your calls if you call them.
MM must fly! he has forgotten what its like its been 8 long years!!!

[mrpaxing]

wants to come back flying ever again. get real, he is far more into politics and unionism these days(which is not necessarily bad). however, the big picture is still to amalgamate with the domestics to avoid issues like the
A330-200 crew rest issues and others. if you just could set aside egos ......:{

[RedTBar]

Guardian tells us

The reference in the FIN REVIEW is about new starters. Perhaps a remedial course in English and Comprehension would help cartexchange and red t bar to understand the Fin Review article. Alternatively, they might be able to buy a kids copy of the Gumby Bears and look at the pretty pictures, since obviously the Fin Review is way above their respective comprehension abilities.

Your post apart from the attempt at derision would have been relevant IF I had seen the article.My point was that to stop rumours especially at a time when our eba is being negotiated is to communicate with the people you represent.How many crew like me would not have seen the paper and were wondering what was going on.Interviews or articles like that about us and l/h in particular come out about 2 or 3 times a year unless something special like a strike is on the cards.

We are all too painfully aware of how tough these negotiations will be but how about showing some leadership and communicate with us?

[DEFCON4]

Communication is not a one way street.
There are 3000 members .
Communicating with us unless absolutuely necessary is time consuming.
There is only one of you T Bar.
Get off your bum and go and see them.
PM me your phone number and I will pass it on if thats too difficult.
Sounds to me like you are part of the last failed union exec who capitulated in the last EBA.
Thank MM for being an intelligent forward thinking dissenter.
If not for him this job would not now be worth 2 cents.
Did you, TBar, vent your spleen on the 3 blind mice GB JB and TW?
Did you seek them out and give them a piece(can you afford it ?)of your mind?.
You are probably still watiing for them to call you

[twiggs]

twiggs they have made the decision, otherwise Guardian and Eden would be screaming like wild banshees if it wasn't true.

They may have agreed in principle, but until they have worked out the details and signed on it, any announcement about it would be a little premature.

[Eden99]

cartexchange continues to demonstrate his ignorance. It seems he can't actually read English.

I think it was explained to him by several people in here, that there is no plan to cut our wages or increase our hours on behalf of MM or the FAAA.

That is the intent of Qantas.

Poor cartexchange can't understand that what a reporter reports is not subject to MM or the FAAA.

I went to the FAAA meetings and i undrstood completely what MM said ...and i also know it was agreed to by everyone in the meeting i went to. I also read the Fin Article and MM and his quotes had nothing to do with reducing our wages or increasing our hours.

cartexchange as someone else suggested to you earlier, you are not the central point in our universe and i'm sure MM has more important things to do than come on here and jump to your stupid demands.

As was suggested to you earlier by several people...pick up the phone and ring MM....... I HAVE ON SEVERAL OCASSIONS and i know a few friends who have as well. He takes every call that is directed to him.

Furthermore, MM has headed the FAAA since 2003 which means he hasn't flown since 2003...... and of course he doesnt fly because he was elected to run the FAAA and protect 3000 peoples livelihoods and to manage a $3 million FAAA organisation.

But of course cartexchange you are to twisted and shortsighted to understand any facts.


Defcon i think you have hit the nail on the head, cartexchange sounds to me that he is an embittered ex FAAA official, thrown out by the members because of his incompetence.

[alpine57]

I also read the Fin Review article and MM'S comments were about new starters, exactly what was said at the FAAA meeting i went to as well.

I hear Greg Broome and Leanne Dalton and a few other ex FAAA execs are trying to stir up trouble with crew coz they want to run again for FAAA positions. That would be a joke!

By the way Eden, mijatov was elected in 2004 and therefore he hasn,t been flying for the last 3 and a bit years , not the 8 that cartexchange says.

By the way, when i discuss FAAA matters with fellow crew it is clear that Mijatov is held in high regard.

He is forthright, honest and sharp as a tack.

[equity38]

I have great confidence in the guys at the FAAA, particularly MM and SR.

MM has brains and courage and he clearly is a straight shooter .

Im happy to have the current guys negotiate this tough EBA.

Imagine what QF would do to us if the former guys were in . They had their chance and stuffed it badly.

I don't want MM to fly...i want him to concentrate on protecting our conditions.

GO KEV07 AND MM !!! :)

[lowerlobe]

From Twiggs....
any announcement about it would be a little premature.

Twiggsy....This is becoming a little repetitive but I'll remind you again.

This (PPrune) is a rumour network and to most of us that means that people post rumours.

If we waited for the official announcement then it wouldn't be a rumour would it?...Duohhhh

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Getting back to reality,I admit that the last few posts made me laugh......Nice one Eden ....

So now that we have heard from the FAAA perhaps we can move on.

[twiggs]

Haven't you got some gardening or something else to do lowerlobe?

I am referring to a newsletter from the FAAA not a post on PPRUNE.

[lowerlobe]

Twiggsy girl..I suggest you read your own posts again but then again that won't do any good because historically you seem to have a problem acknowledging or even understanding your own posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cartexchange
So when will the FAAA put out a letter to the membership advising them of their decision not have the horizontal crew rest on this a/c!


This quote from cartexchange which I used ....Which I take it to mean is that he believes that the FAAA has made a decision on this matter but has not informed the membership....In other words a rumour

To which Twiggsy replied...

I am referring to a newsletter from the FAAA not a post on PPRUNE.

Twiggsy girl...Since there has been no newsletter from the FAAA regarding this issue you ARE therfore referring to a rumour posted by cartexchange on PPrune.

Even you should remember your own post where you said...rather than speculated about on this forum which probably less than 10% of crew actually read.

Unless you have a doppelgänger who uses your id from time to time you should understand that to speculate and to spread a rumour are basically the same.

Remember it's not the money that's important it's the destinations.

[twiggs]

I don't know why I bother, but...

I was stating that maybe the FAAA does have intentions as the rumour/speculation/PPRUNE banter suggests, BUT since nothing concrete has been set down, it is not appropriate to inform the membership officially via newsletter.

That was my answer to Cartexchange.

Go back to feeding the chooks Lowerlobe, this discussion does not concern you.

[Butterfield8]

It affects the rest of us.
Try putting your one neuron into gear before you use it Twiggsy.

[twiggs]

Yes it does affect the rest of US Butterfield, so retirees that are not contributing to the debate and instead are just trying to start a fight are not helping the situation.

[cartexchange]

well, I haven't been able to get back to you any earlier EDEN GUARDIAN as I have been flying .
Interesting post eden, the usual attacks and abuse, no wonder people don't call the FAAA you would only be ridiculed and treated with sarcasm.

Although the best of intentions may have been meant in the Fin Review Article . , it did not come across that way, and ALL the crew must be as illiterate as I am as they all understood it the way I did.

Anyway lets move on, and one of you get someone in the FAAA to publish an explanation as this is causing problems online as the crew are seeing the union as defeatist, you may not agree that is what is being stated.

now the other issues:
When was the last time MM flew, it was in 1999, he has been involved in the FAAA since then so don't give me all this crap about elected to this and elected that, the guy hasn't flown for years and everyone knows it! At least SR flies and cannot be criticised for not flying, he is more practical and at least knows what being fatigued is all about!\
So Guardian , EDEN et al... please state on here the last and correct date MM flew as a CSS.
now to change the tone,,,,,,,MM has done a good job and he has been very passionate about a many things confronting us, However he seems to have been on the ground for far too long, he has forgotten how arduous some flying can be, otherwise he would do something about horizontal crew rest on the A330.

So what is the FAAA position on the Horizontal crew rest on this A/C, have they agreed with the company?

When will MM do at least 2 trips per roster, a LAX/AKL and a BOM or JNB. his credibility may somewhat be restored?

[Butterfield8]

I have got a pretty good idea who you are Cartexchange.
You are not even a union member.
You have had an axe to grind and crave recognition to satisfy your overblown egocentric self importance.

[cartexchange]

sorry you have that opinion Butterfield however you are totally wrong.

I have simply asked some legitimate questions!

Has the horizontal crew rest for the A330 been approved or rejected and has the FAAA given its approval for whatever decision QF management have made!

When was the last time MM flew?

Why not publish a letter from the FAAA to clarify the Fin Review article?

how is this being anti unionist! they are accountable!

[stubby jumbo]

Who gives a ratz when MM last flew.

I certainly couldn't care less. He is there for one job , and one job only....... to try and spin the QF spin team into an EBA that is not vanilla, but GOLD.

Let me say tough he is up against it. THE BANGER SISTERS ( not a bloke in sight!) are a formidable team=Tarantula, Black Widow, Miss Piggy, Nomes.

Like Rudd, if he doesn't pull it off he will be punted faster than you can say OHCRF. No prizes for guessing who will have the boot on :eek:

[alpine57]

cartexchange doesn't get it at all and butterfield sums it up correctly when he says of cartexchage that he is egocentric etc

cartexchange is also wrong..... i have flown with MM several times the latest time was the end of 2003. He ceased flying when he replaced Johanna Brem in 2004..that is a matter of record.

All heads of the FAAA do not fly while they occupy that position...MM is no fifferent.

It must be a very difficult job negotiating for over 3000 crew, particularly in the current circumstances. Also the FAAA is a multi million dollar concern with staff etc. Your suggestion that MM flies and work mon-fri running the FAAA is absurd.

Perhaps after your flights cartexchange you too should get another full time job and work 7 days as you suggest MM should.

You truly are a narrow minded and spiteful individual cartexchange with an obvious axe to grind.

It is generally agreed with crew that i fly that MM is the best head of the FAAA. i ALSO NOTE AS AN ASIDE, THAT THE FAAA is the best managed in its history as someone pointed out earlier on here...and thats with the least number of crew ever.,

MM must be doing something right, and i have confidence i him and the current senior people in the FAAA.

The other thing you conveniently forget cartexchange that MM leads a team , he does not make unilateral decisions.

[lowerlobe]

Thanks for that Eden99..I mean Alpine57 ....

Does anyone know when the current EBA expires?

Is the company in a hurry to finalise a new agreement before the Federal Election?

Twiggsy girl..I like the bit about 'the' Neuron....:E

Remember it's not the money that's important it's the destinations.

[Guardian1]

17 December 2007

[twiggs]

Once again you misquote me lobe.

FOL

[lowerlobe]

OK Twiggsy Girly....I'll re print your post and we'll see if we can spot the difference!!!

Twiggsy Girly's post...I think everyone has lost sight of what this job is about, and it aint money.
It's about the destinations.

My post....Remember it's not the money that's important it's the destinations.

Now Twiggsy Girl if you can put down the latest issue of 'No Idea' and explain the difference to us?

[twiggs]

I said "I think everyone has lost sight of what THIS job is about"

I wrote that with the view that not many people applied to be cabin crew because they heard the money was double what they could get anywhere else.
Most people came to flying long haul because it gave them an opportunity to see the world.

Now lobe, if you disagree with my statement that's OK, but you have no right to to take your own interpretation of my words and falsely claim that is what I wrote in order to try to discredit me or piss me off.


FOL

[capt.cynical]

Moderators;
Lobey & Twiggs are fighting again,please send them to thier rooms.:rolleyes::ugh:

[RedTBar]

capt.cynical,
It's been a while! But your right it's as fruitless as the previous arguments with the faaa.But if you are in the middle of talks about your eba then you will have heated posts and thats not necessarily a bad thing.

Lobey don't bother with twigs as she's a few bytes short of a download.You do raise an interesting point with the election.Will the company try and get the faaa to agree and sign something before the election because there might be a change of government?

They would have to hurry as it would need to be voted on as well and the election(thankfully) is only a few weeks away!

[call button]

Short haul EBA negotiations are due to commence in early January. EBA 7 expires on 30th June 2008. It will be interesting to see whether the company delays negotiations with the long haul FAAA, so that both negotiations are occurring simultaneously.

[mrpaxing]

with the EBA. if anything it will take a few month to get an agreement. look at the pilots (domestic) LH pilots have had no eba since january, engineers a long time as well. in addition lets not forget the senate does not change until middle of next year. time will tell. at least by may they have to make a decision if they give the A380 to LH or someone else.

[twiggs]

Lobey don't bother with twigs as she's a few bytes short of a download

Yeah and Professor Lobe is a rocket scientist and Dr TBar is a brain surgeon.
:rolleyes:

[RedTBar]

mrpaxing,Are you sure about the Senate not changing until next year?Politics is something that I should spend more time on but it bores me to tears.

Even so if the opposition wins and announces their intentions to change the IR laws it should take some sting out of the company's case I would think.
Then again this is politics and I guess anything could happen.

Has anyone noticed how quite Dixon and mates have been?
I can't wait to the agm and hope that someone or some group puts the pressure on them at the meeting.

[lowerlobe]

Ms Jackson also expressed her concerns at the potential impact of federal Labor's industrial relations policy on Qantas, warning that it could reduce flexibility in the airline's 34,000-strong workforce.

In an interview in her office in Melbourne this week, she said Qantas had made use of the industrial relations changes brought in under the Howard Government.

She warned that rolling these changes back could have an impact on the airline's staffing levels "down the track".


......and this is from the woman who said you have to have mental problems not to sell your shares....

[And5678]

in addition lets not forget the senate does not change until middle of next year

At the risk of this post revealing me for the political tragic that I am, the above information is not entirely correct.

The result of elections for Senate positions in a territory (ie - Northern Territory or ACT) take immediate effect after the election. For the states, as Mr Paxing said, the results take effect from July 1 the following year.

There is a real possibility that Labor will take a Senate position from the Liberal Party in the ACT if polling is to be believed. If this occurs no party will hold a majority in their own right

Bring on November 24!

[Eden99]

13 November 2007
Attention all Qantas Long Haul Flight Attendants
Qantas Agrees To Extra Crew Member!
It is with the greatest pleasure that I can announce that positive progress in EBA negotiations between Qantas and the FAAA has meant that Qantas is able to agree to an extra crew member on B747-400 aircraft configured with the Premium Economy cabin.
In February 2008 you will see the first of the re-configured B747-400 aircraft be rolled out with the new Premium Economy cabin. The re-configuration of the Kangaroo fleet will continue until August 2008, the re-configuration will then commence on the Pacific Fleet.
The first aircraft featuring Premium Economy will fly all services to London via Bangkok. During the first 6 months from launch, services to Hong Kong, San Francisco, Johannesburg and Los Angeles may also feature Premium Economy. All routes to London will have Premium Economy by July.
The Pacific embodiment will be completed by March 2009.
The extra crew member on these services will result in approximately 150 extra full time positions in Long Haul.
Crew have been informed by the FAAA that a prime objective of the current EBA negotiations is job security which can only be achieved by securing extra work and growth in Long Haul. We are pleased to deliver on the first growth instalment in Long Haul for over 5 years! It needs to be stated that work can only be secured from Qantas on the basis of productive change.
The EBA negotiations are continuing on a very intensive and constructive basis. The negotiations are the most complex and complicated in our history, and we will be in a position to publicly discuss matters once these confidential negotiations are concluded.
Finally, as an aside, I ask our members to have faith and confidence in the FAAA and the FAAA negotiating team and not to listen to uninformed gossip or deliberate misinformation by individuals with other agendas. Similarly, any references in the press relating to our negotiations should not be taken as gospel. Just because something is in a press article does not make it accurate or true.
Written and authorised by Michael Mijatov – Secretary International Division