Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?

[Raw Data]

This is from a reply I posted in R&N, but it is more relevant here. Hope it helps.

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For anyone who is interested, in my time as a trainer, I have found the following to be generally true.

Some people will fail the sim check. This is usually down to lack of currency in general flying practice, or lack of I/F proficiency. It can usually be remedied by spending some time in a jet-type sim doing some hard IFR. If you are going for a turboprop sim check, the jet sim is a good idea because most sim checks seem to be done on jet sims. BTW, you CANNOT overprepare for a sim check when it comes to knowing ATC procedure, Rules of the Air, etc. Simple little things like the appropriate cruising level for a particular altitude mess a lot of folk up.

Some fail the ARB. This is nearly unheard of, especially if CBT is being used. Still, if you know you are prone to exam problems, try and get the books early and in particular learn ALL the limitations off by heart, ESPECIALLY engine limitations.

Some fail the type training in the sim. This is usually a judgement call on the part of the training dept. Anyone can be taught to do anything, given enough time and money. However, training departments have very finite training budgets, so if they think you will not meet the required standard in the allowable time frame, you will probably be chopped. Occasionally people will be allowed a few extra hours in the sim if it is thought that they are "nearly there". This of course depends on sim bookings, and may not be possible on a heavily-used sim. Some training depts may allow you to continue if you pay for the additional training, but it's rare. The only course of action available to you is to stay focused and calm. Try not to let the pressures of the situation get to you... I realise that is nearly impossible to do, but try anyway. I have seen several colleagues fail sim courses over the years, usually because once they realised that things were not going well, they let the pressures of worrying about their continued career and employment get to them, and their performance deteriorated as a result. In a sense, the failed themselves. I say that with no pride at all, it is a horrible thing to experience, or to watch from the other seat. To reiterate... try and stay focused and calm, keep studying, practice IF on your computer or whatever, don't spend time in the bar. It's only for a few days!

Once you are into line training, the worst is most definitely behind you. As I mentioned earlier, what we look for in line training is your ability to fly safely and accurately in a normal IFR environment. You will normally have an autopilot to help you and no deliberate failures. The abilities you need are good situational awareness, good CRM, and good decision-making. As line training is revenue flying, it is the phase of training where the most time can be allowed to reach the required standard. People who get chopped here are normally either up against a hostile trainer (not that common these days), or are having major problems with the areas mentioned above. Typical symptoms include inability to plan descents properly, poor execution of SIDs or STARs, poor fuel planning, consistently bad landings, poor situational awareness, poor procedural knowledge, poor aircraft knowledge. In any event, this is the phase where the most leeway is usually allowed... I only ever failed people who were a very, very long way from reaching the standard, and who were showing no signs of improvement. The remedy is to keep studying, run the flights through in your mind and identify all the areas causing you trouble, and tell your trainer exactly what you are having trouble with. Concentrate on getting those bits right. Make it abundantly clear that you are working hard and are going for it.

If you are having trouble, TELL YOUR TRAINER. Help them to help you.

Maxfli is absolutely right... a failure is a reflection on the training dept as well as the candidate. It is also a failure on the part of the selection board. Some training depts are enlightened and see it that way, some don't. And finally, it is very, very expensive for a company to fail someone in line training.

I hope that helps some of you who are soon to start courses.

[Grandad Flyer]

Another tip is to clear your life for the entire period of your sim training and groundschool. If you allow yourself to get bogged down in domestic stuff or distracted with things that aren't THAT important, you will not do so well in the sim.
If you think it would be better for you to be away from home for the duration, in a hotel or B+B, then book it.
You may think it is not a problem, you won't let it become a distraction, but people do and then their performance is not so good.
You really need to commit yourself 110%.

[Uplinker]

Thanks Raw Data,

All insights like yours, and www's essay on psychometric testing, are very useful, as they give us a picture of 'where the questioner/interviewer/training Captain, is coming from.
i.e; Do they expect us to be accurate to one decimal place; Do they want us to remember all the checklists perfectly from day one; or Do they want to know if we can tell good jokes, and have a firm handshake ?.

I sweated blood on my IR because towards the end of the test, the entire episode of leaving my previous job, starting a business, saving up the money for the CAP 509, convincing my wife, paying the mortgage etc, etc built up in my mind. I started worrying about all this, and what I would do if I failed the IR, and managed to b*gger up the NDB Hold.

Nailed it on the re-take thank goodness !

Thanks again for the info.

[This message has been edited by Uplinker (edited 02 December 1999).]

[jofly]

Raw Data
What are your chance to find an another job
when you have been chopped in your line training.

[Raw Data]

Jofly, see what has been said in the thread "Life after the Chop" over on Rumours and News. It can be done, but it is difficult. Perseverance is the key!

[Jimmy Mack]

Hi all,

I know there has been a lot of threads about the value of type ratings...should you do one or not, what employers expect etc.

I had heard that a number of places that used to offer them have stopped - and only those employed by an airline would have access to do one.

How true is this?
Anyone know of a provider that still offers a type rating to Joe Public?

All replies gratefully received...even the sarky ones!

:)

[RichT]

There is a list of all companies that offer
type ratings at the bottom of:
http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_approvedftos.pdf

Whether they offer them to Joe Public or not I don't know but I suspect that money talks.

I have been told that an average cost of a Turbo prop type rating is ~£10k. This would appear to be a lot for what probably amounts to a few hours in a sim. I would be interested if anyone knows different.

[Winkiepinkie]

Ok, my fellow Ppruners, I know the basics, but I'd like a bit more info namely on:

- Bit more detail on what the actually are
- Whats involved
- How much does it cost
- How long does it take, and
- Where you go about doing them.

Thanks you crazy bunch.

[JJflyer]

Hello Winkie...

In a nutshell

1. 2-4 weeks of training including classroom and sim.
2. 20-40 hours of simulator training.
3.Between 5000 USD to 50000 USD depending on the type and place where you do the training.
USA seems to be by far the most affordable.
4. Flightsafety, Aeroservice, PanAm, STI,HPA to name a few schools in US are in business.
Also quite a few operators will offer their aircraft, such as Citation, Short or Lears for training where the typerating is obtained in the airplane and not in Simulator.

A type course could be as follows:

Days 1-9 Classroom training
Days 9-13 Simulator training
Day 13 Oral Examination
Day 14 Simulator check
And if required Day 15 aircraft check... Three bounces.

JJ

[bottle2throttle]

I'm worried. I'm going to fly for a living and of that there is no doubt. But there seems to be a lot of negativaty as far as jobs are concernced. I'm sure a lot of Wannabes share the same thoughts.

So..I'm thinking of getting a type rating after I graduate from OATS. I know this means I'm going to have part with a **** load of cash, but if it boosts my chances of getting a job massivly, then why not? I can't imagine doing any other Job in the world, I'm too familiar of reading how desparate some Wannabes become it's quite worrying.

How much is a type rating for a 737?
Where can I do such a course?
Do people think I'm stupid for even contemplating this? (rhetorical question).

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Jesus, this bogy's all over me...........

[This message has been edited by bottle2throttle (edited 03 April 2001).]

[GJB]

type rating £ for a 737 I have no idea....but do you really want to do that? It still wont gaurantee you a job.

Why not add an FI rating?

[seadog]

My advise -others may disagree - is forget the typr rating and spend money building more hours, preferably multi time (in the States where it's cheap!). An employer will think much better of you with more than the minimum hours and valuable multi-time, as any decent employer will put you through a typr-rating program themselves so that thay can also tach you the company SOP's at the same time. Don't dispair from other Wannabes - the job is out there if you want it enough!

[Going Around & Around]

There are jobs around, you just cannot afford to be choosy and when you do get that first interview, make sure you nail it!

Everyone I asked about type ratings said that it is worth little or nothing without any time on type! I agree with seadog, get more hours before a type rating. I have a mate who got nowhere post ab-initio, got 50 more hours wrote back and was offered an interview. A very small difference in the grand scheme of things.

Good luck!

[virgin]

Does anyone know how much a Gulfstream III type rating would cost?
And, where you can do it?

This would be a first jet rating for a new CPL with no previous jet time.

[Willy Nilly]

Call Flight Safety or Gulfstream. Previous experience is not essential.

[Iz]

You can also try SimuFlite, they're the leading biz jet training org.
www.simuflite.com (http://www.simuflite.com)

[Turbsy]

Hi all,

Would really appreciate it if someone can let me know, where in Europe, Ireland or the UK if possible, you can do a B737 (-200 or -800) and Airbus (A320)type rating?

Obviously would only consider doing one of them in a good few years when I hope to have all the necessary hrs,liscenses, etc.

How much would each cost, £20000+ ? What are the requirements to such ratings, etc? How long is each course?

Iam just trying to get an overall picture of how much money is going to be needed to do all flight training, as well as a possible type rating, if I am not succesful with any sponsorship.

Any info about them would be really appreciated. BTW I have looked at older posts about it, and just hoping for any up to date info now.

Thanks,
All the best,

Turbsy
Ireland

[This message has been edited by Turbsy (edited 16 June 2001).]

[Autofly]

Turbsy,

Don't do it ...... ask Hamrah & WWW about it. At the seminars the last week it was pointed out that these ratings will not give you an advantage when applying. No matter whether or not you've got the rating the airline will still have to put you through their own training. Another thing is that shoudl you put yourself through the ATPL training the likelyhood of you flying the aircraft your rated on in your first job is ...... well not good, particulary if its a jet. Don't set your sights on a jet job as your first job. I'm not saying that you'll never get a jet job as your first job but .....

If you do a type rating it could work out for you but it is a huge gamble to take. The other question is after you've forked out xxxxxx k for your frozen ATPL will you want to shell out another 20k on a type rating.

I don't want to put a downer on it but suggest you look into it in more detail and have a chat with one of the mods.

Good luck

Autofly

[Turbsy]

Thanks for that autofly,

Iam asking about that because all I see advertised is ATPL, 500hrs+, Type rated on this and that, etc, etc.

I really would like to get a job as a pilot in Ryanair, and was kinding of thinkin well if I am type rated in a B737 that could be a huge advantage. The cost is without doubt very large, but your right, even then I stil mightn't get into the airline.

Does anyone know what the trend seems to be with most pilots now in Ryanair, e.g did most of them become flying instructors first to build up the hrs and then they applied to the company?

Cheers,

Turbsy

[A7E Driver]

GECAT offers type ratings for 737 and A320s for self-sponsored pilots at their Gatwick training centre. Cost is GBP 13,000 + you have to spend another 1500-3000 for the base training --- which for pilots with less than 1500 hours is 6 T&Gs (I think).

[Jetheat]

Today is the day, after 4 long years, where I have earned a Type Rating. Took a long time to get here.
The Type Rating involved 2 weeks Ground School (CBT), 2 weeks Simulator and 2 days circuit training. Now I have a Type Rating on a Fokker 50.

It's such a great feeling that I feel the need to shout it out to everyone. Sorry!

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
Pat yourself on the back and then,maybe you could telling the unknowing exactly what is involved in a Type Rating.
regards
TDD

[go]

well done ,,I was quite happy about a type rating on a be76...have you got yr rating through klm or did you pay for it yourself..?

[CRJ200]

Turbsy: Listen to Autofly's good advice. Don't waste your money. Most airlines will look at a self bought type rating unfavorably especially if you don't have stick time in the aircraft after the rating.

With the very minimum requirements I wouldn't bet the farm on getting hired with 500 hours and a 737 type with no time behind the wheel. There's just too much competition around. Unless you happen to be the boss's son or something.

Chip away at it one step at a time. Good Luck.

[scroggs]

I agree. Be very wary about paying for a jet type rating; when Ryanair ask for type-rated pilots, they're after people who've done useful work on an aircraft type after an airline's comprehensive line training. For instance, Ryanair are very happy to take Easyjet/BA/bmi/Virgin Express pilots with only a few hours (relatively) because they have that training and have had another airline's training system take the risk of failure - something which Ryanair doesn't want to do. A paid-for type rating will give you the ground school, ARB exam, and simulator time, and a base training trip, all for an exorbitant amount of money, yet the airlines you approach with this piece of paper will laugh in your face. Harsh, but true. Sorry.

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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[A7E Driver]

I think Scroggs' view is a little over the top. A type rating does indicate to the airline that you at least have the intellect/capability to get through a course that they are going to have to bet £30K that you can do. I think the more important consideration is Autofly's point that as soon as you get your 737 rating, you will get picked up by someone flying 320s or Emb 145s. Is it wasted money? Its your call.

[Turbsy]

Thanks to all of you for your opinions and advice, very helpful indeed.

I think the best thing to do is to probably forget about a particular kind of rating (at least for the moment anyway) and focus more so on building those hrs up and seeking some sort of employment in the industry. Hopefully then the right job will come along at some stage.

Thanks to all of you again for your replys,
All the best,

Turbsy

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Don`t do it mate,Say for instance you did a type rating on a 737 for instance.First you will still have no useful experience on type.Then you start sending out CV`s.What if your prospective employer operates Turbo Props?What is that telling them.If you end up with any money left at the end of your training,use it to keep current or buy some twin time.

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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!

[Crosswind Limits]

Great news Jetheat! Do let us know what it's like on the line!

[scroggs]

A7E makes a valid point, but I stand by what I say, even if it come over a little over-dramatically. Airlines like to minimise their training risks, and someone who has experience of a particular type with another line presents the lowest risk. If you do one of these type rating courses you've not established sufficient credibility to be regarded as a low risk, but you have spent a lot of money! And, as others have said, your first job may be on something else entirely! I'd avoid them for now. Later in your career, when you have a couple thousand hours on the line, a paid-for type rating may well increase your employability, but I'd suggest not before your first job.

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Scroggs
Wannabes Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[A7E Driver]

No argument from me on that sage advice Scroggs.

[DanAirline]

Thats great news Jetheat, Congratulations!

Is this with KLM Cityhopper? They fly their Fokker 50's over to here, so i might see you some day :)

Unfortunetely they are replaced next year with Fokker 70's http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Regards, Dan

[STALL_TURN]

Turbsy, most of the airlines arent interested in 250 hr cpl's yet, instead of spending £13,000 on a type rating spend £5000 on an instructors rating and spend a year building experience (and getting the sh?t scared out of you by students trying to pull the mixture to ICO instead of carb heat cold on short finals)once you've got 800 -1000 hrs then start sending your cv's to airlines, the chances are that you'll get a job soon after.

[Stealth]

Most of you guys are correct. A low timer with a type rating and no hours in the air stands no chance in getting a credible jet job. However, there are places (Yugoslavia, Czech Republic etc) where you can do a type rating for a reasonable amount of money and walk away with a considerable portion of hours on type.
I am going to do my 737-300 type rating with Yugoslav Airlines for about USD16,000. The training would include 190 hours of ground school, 18 hours in a FBS, 18 hours in a FFS, 2 hours of base training and 50 hours of line training as a first officer on their RPT routes. More hours of line training can be purchased at USD45 per hour.
Therefore if you are prepared to spend USD20,500 you can end up with an internationaly accepted type rating and 100+ hours on RPT as a first officer.

[Sagey]

Apart from agreeing with everything Autofly and Scroggs says, another worrying aspect about individuals paying for type rating is the potential trend in the industry that it could lead to. An ATPL is very expensive, just imagine if all airlines required ATPL plus self funded type rating!!!! It is already potentially financially crippling.

Also re Yuglosav Airlines, this might be me getting it totally wrong, but paying to work for an airline seems like one massive con. Ok u might get a type rating relatively cheaply and with hours on type, but why should ATPL qualified pilots pay to work??? And at the end of the day after paying to work for such airlines it doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a wage paying job afterwards.

Sagey

[This message has been edited by Sagey (edited 17 June 2001).]

[Stealth]

Sagey,
I may have to clarify the facts from my previous post. The Yugoslav Air law stipulates that in order to get a valid type rating a candidate must complete at least 50 hours of line training on RPT routes in the aircraft for which the rating is sought. For example they do not accept an American type rating with zero time on it.
Furthermore, another rule says that if you are not a company employee and the line training is conducted the company must make sure that their F/O is present on board ie. in the jump seat.
So the USD45 you pay only serves to cover the cost of the company's F/O, who is on duty even though not logging any hours. I think that this is a very cheap option of time building. Put it this way, people do the same in the USA when hiring a twin in order to gain the hours.

[Techman]

Didnt think that it would be allowed under JAR-OPS anymore.

Anyway it doesnt really say anything about your abilities, as the institution that you have paid, most likely would let you pass.

[Jetheat]

I did the Type Rating with KLM uk and so I will be based in Leeds. Moving there soon. Just awaiting my first Line Training flight - may take a couple of weeks.

I think the Type rating is not hard, its just a lot of info to take in within 4 weeks. It's a steep learning curve. From knowing nothing to knowing all the systems and all the SOPs within a month seems daunting but is manageable.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward to flying the Line!

[Turbsy]

Thanks to all of you again for your advice.
I see now it really is best to build the hrs up first before even considering it.

I hope to get a job in Ireland as a Flight Instructor and wouldn't mind taking another part-time job as well to be able to make a living.

I keep on hearing about getting a job as flying with a small air taxi service, etc, but where are such jobs advertised?

I've never seen anything like that published in the newspapers here in Ireland. Would it be down to who you know and the talk from within your local flying club as to when such jobs are available.

My biggest concern is without doubt how to build the hrs up once I finally get my ATPL and IR.

Cheers,
Turbsy

[JJflyer]

Stealth.

Email me at [email protected]

JJ

[man-flex45]

Stealth,
Could you give me all the information you have about the 737 type with Yugoslav.
And a contact number if you have it.
Thanks in advance.
MF45

[email protected]

[HighandTight]

Stealth, looks like you've started a trend here.

Could you do the same for me and let me know about the course you are doing...
email me - [email protected]

As for the question the original poster asked - perhaps if paying for a type rating manages to get you a job it's a better risk than two years of trying to hourbuild as an instructor in the UK weather. Given the last 18 months I'm amazed I can still pay the mortagage..
Loss of income from a wellpaid job must be factored in as a cost too. If paying for a type rating can help you get a job without 1-2 years instructing then perhaps the risk is worth it.

[Turbsy]

Just had a look at a 1997 copy of a flying mag and at the back theres is a mention of THE ATP ACADEMY, B737 / 757 A320/A321 type ratings. Anyone know if they're still operating?

Cheers,
Turbsy

[A7E Driver]

Non-Jar airline training presents a problem unless the training Captain holds a JAR licence. I'm not an expert in this, but I recommend you look into it closely before committing. Regards

[Turbsy]

Thanks for the advice mate, at the moment I'm only looking into it.

All the best,
Turbsy

[Speedbird744]

Over the next 4 years, is the Airbus 319/320 the only shorthaul fleet a cadet can choose to start on, or are there still courses on the 757?

[Speedbird 2946]

The 757 fleet is reducing in size, thus plans are for 737 and Airbus courses only, though even 737 is being slowly faded out. You never know though..

How come?

[Lucifer]

No plans as yet to replace Gatwick 737s.

[Pandora]

You never can tell with BA. When I joined the airline I was asked which fleet I would prefer. The 757 was one of the fleets offered, so it was one of my first choices. At this point the 737 at LHR wasn't even a twinkle in Bob's eye. A while later the letter arrived saying congratulations you'll be going to LHR ... on the 737.Everyone I spoke to said I was going mad (been happening for a while now) and that there was no 73 fleet at LHR.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, it seems they had announced the reduction of the 757 fleet and advised pilots to bid for a fleet move unless they didn't mind being frozen on the fleet till it was closed. Weeks later, after the more senior flight crew jumped to other fleets, they announced they would be keeping the 757s for a bit longer after all. Most of the next 50 CEPs to join BA went to the 757. I bump into them from time to time at the Compass centre and they say 'Hi where are you going?' I say 'Aberdeen ... again' and they say 'Aw never mind. I'm off to Nassau.'

At the moment you can expect A319/320 (LHR and BHX), or B737 (LHR, LGW and possibly MAN). Just remember the plan may be different tommorrow.

[Flyingspaniard]

I have recently recieved a phonecall from a TRTO offering their course on the S360. I finished my ATPL course about 2 months ago now and have been thinking about it for a while although I suspect that it sounds to good to be true. They say that they only recruit from the pool of pilots that they train. According to them, of the 35 people they trained last year something like 32 later got jobs either with them or with other airlines that use the a/c. My question is do you think it is worth the gamble to get that first job or do you think I should spend my money on an Instructors course as previously planned. I have been sending CVs, making phonecalls etc but so far have got nowhere other than the usual "dear john" letters. I have to admit its pretty tempting. Has anybody else funded their own type rating? Am I mad for even considering it?

[Blackshirt]

Everything I've ever read or anyone I've ever listened to says "...DON'T EVEN GO THERE!!!"

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Be very careful.Are they offering a job if you do their Type Rating?The advice from the last wannabe`s seminar was that a type rating was only any good with some time on type.Just a type rating on it`s own wasn`t worth much.
Ask this training organisation if it is willing to supply contact details for past students.You may be able to find out if they really did help them get a job.IMHO I would do the Instructor rating and build from there,unless they are saying "Here is a guarenteed job,but you pay towards the type rating."Not ideal I know but a foot in the door.
Good Luck which ever you decide.

[Flyingspaniard]

They told me that there is no guarantee of a job, but they have fixed me up with a jump seat ride with one of the first officers that came out of the course six months ago. They tell me that there will be positions for first officers in the coming months as they have got a new contract next year and are getting a new aircraft for it. I agree with the ususal argument that it isn't worth getting say a 737 type rating as no airline in their right mind is gonna take you on with say one hour on type. This one seems a little different though cos as well as being a TRTO they are also a well established cargo operator.
I guess I'll have to wait and see what they tell me after the jump seat ride.

[Manflex55]

Hmmmm... a self-sponsored TR on the SD360.... smells like BAC Express, my friends. They "offer" ( :D) this course for £10,500 + VAT. & if U have even more money to throw away, U can also pay for the F27 course @ £13,000 + VAT ( :D :D ). A BIG JOKE, that's what it is. Another way to steal money from students' pockets... or @ least from those who still have some !

As it's been said many many many many times on this forum, DON'T pay for a TR unless U have a bunch of hours (say 500 or more) in the relevant a/c. It won't help U get a job, it will just enable the TRTO people to increase their income.

MF

[Obi Wan Kirk]

Don't ever pay for a type rating. I did a few years ago and was promised a job that at the end of the rating (it took 11 months!)didn't happen. Reason being the company had changed their plans. I then took on a job with another carrier on a different type (rating paid by company) and after 6 months with them was called by the first airline but they offered me peanuts.
To this day I have my self-sponsored rating but have never really used it and therefore threw money down the drain.
I know it's tempting when you get promised a job on an A320 subject to having the rating but be patient and persevere because there is someone out there ready to pay for your type rating and give you a job.
The only form of self-sponsorship I feel I can reccommend is that offered by the ATP Academy in Southamton-UK. Once you've got a rating with them you will almost certainly get you a job.

[HomerSimpson]

Is the company in question based in the South of England offering course on the Shorts360, without a job. However, they keep on bombarding your with phone calls and letters about their training courses?

If so, I got the same treatment. Im not interested in self sponsoring for a type rating especially if there is no job at the end of it, even if the company is rather STREAMLINED.

[D-IFF_ident]

Can anyone tell me which companies offer sponsorship for type ratings? And how do they get their money back? Also, if you are lucky enough to be sponsored through a type rating with a view to employment after it, do you get paid during yourtraining? Thanx

[RV6]

Diff Ident

Mostly companies will pay for your type rating and pay you while you train if they are taking you on as an employee, contract or otherwise. They get their money back by bonding you - varies between 3 and 5 years to my knowledge. They make you repay a percentage of a nominal training cost if you leave within the specified time.

It can be a reasonable way of getting a type rating - but be aware that the cost can be very high if you leave with a large percentage of bond owing.

[willbav8r]

Obi Wan Kirk,

off topic I know, but I notice you reside in Bergamo. I spent the most wonderful week in Bergamo about 5 years ago. Dinner in the square and walking around the old town was quite majestic.

Does that mean you fly from the Milan airports?

Sorry to ramble on, but no E-Mail address available. Guess I was reminiscing....

[Flyingspaniard]

You got it HS! Wow I fall for these things everytime. I reckon if I hadn't got some opinions first I probably would have gone for it! As a matter of fact I'm now thinking of getting a citation type rating in Finland!(joke)

Cheers Folks your views are much appreciated.

[skymarshal 1]

I also have had offers from streamline re s360 type rating for around £6000 but with no guaranntee of a job.

A lot of money for a type rating on an aging aircraft which is disapearing from uk fleets, it could be an expensive mistake.

[MaxAOB]

DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING WHATEVER THE TEMPTING SALESMAN MAY SAY. PAY FOR AN INSTRUCTORS COURSE INSTEAD. DO NOT PAY FOR A TYPE RATING!!!!!! :eek: :mad: :eek:

[JJflyer]

For me paying for a type worked out perfectly. It was paid off after the first 2 weeks flying. This was a B727 training obtained in US and getting the training was precondition for being hired.

Anyways. Financially I cannot see why anyone in their right mind would put 13000 sterling into a type only to make 400 a month. Takes a while to pay that off.
As long as there are jobs around where you are given the traning try to go for something like that.

Time in type requirments are not always required, that is if you have sort of hours that would otherwise make you suitable. Say 1000 hours in a B727 and you get a B737 type. Well some would say that you are quite qualified to be hired even without time in type.

[Stratocaster]

A type rating is useless (and risky business) if you don't have experience on type.

OK, I agree with that... But then how do you log time on type BEFORE the type rating ?
:D :D :D

[JJflyer]

With FAA only P1 qualified has a type rating on licence instead you complete a SIC program and get your training records and all that pretty paperwork to show compliance. But will not have a type on your licence unless you have completed a PIC proficiency check and approved training program.
That is how I got time in type before I had the type on my ATP licence.

FAA is in many aspects than one very easy licence to keep current amongs others and all the types will be on your piece of paper, regardless if you are current on it or not.

[smellster]

FYI

There seems to be a bit of bad rep' about the sd360/330 type ratings from what is obviously Streamline, as they are the only guys doing this type rating in the UK.

I work for the company, yes they charge 7 grand, but that is due to the lovely CAA, it used to be 4 grand a couple of years ago. 3 hours flying to aound 7-8 hours nowadays. That explains the cost.

Of course you're not guaranteed a job, THANK GOD, that would mean every muppet who came along with the money would have a job. It is done on performance on the initial base check and your experience, but we have taken on people with 200 hours. And if you don't get in with us, you are highly likely to get in with some one else who flies sheds eg: BAC and LoganAir. Didn't Emerald advertise for Shed pilots in Flight International recently?

Sounds like I'm trying to sell the course, but no, you need to decide whether you are going to fork out for a more expensive rating eg 737 etc, go instructing, or hang around hoping for the successful interview.

I've certainly enjoyed the past couple of years flying the shed doing 700 hours/year. Coming up to command soon.

Anyone out there done the shed rating in the past 4 months still without a job??

later

smellster

[magenta]

...got the blue book, might win the lottery on saturday, and then.....type rating on a 737, thank you very much. What are the experts going to say...? :confused:

[magenta]

...smellster, what's the difference between a 330 and a 360 rating. Can I ask you, why you think BAC is about 3 grand dearer?

...is there anybody else who has done a 330/360 rating? :)

[Say again s l o w l y]

A good mate of mine did his rating with streamline about 2-3 months ago, yesterday he got a job with them. Personally I'm about to go and do the course, after having instucted for the past 9 months I'm fed up waiting for something to happen. So at least this is a step in the right direction even if it is an expensive one.

[smellster]

Magenta,

There is absolutely no difference between a 330 and 360 rating, they are one and the same. Even if you do all your type rating on the sd-330, you will have sd-330/sd-360 stamped in your licence.

I have no idea why BAC are 3 grand more expensive, I didn't even know they were a TRTO for the shed. Perhaps they want to make a bit of money out of you wannabees?

By the way in my previous posting no offence was intended to Muppet who posted before me!!

Homer Simpson:
'Is the company in question based in the South of England offering course on the Shorts360, without a job. However, they keep on bombarding your with phone calls and letters about their training courses?
If so, I got the same treatment. Im not interested in self sponsoring for a type rating especially if there is no job at the end of it, even if the company is rather STREAMLINED'

What a load of rubbish, there is no-one in Streamline who would 'bombard' you with letters and phone calls to do their training course, quite simply because there is no-one with enough time on their hands.

smellster

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: smellster ]

[HomerSimpson]

So 2 phone calls and 6 letters from the same company doesn't constitute someone wanting me to do the course. Hmmmmmm, let me think about this!

[Loony_Pilot]

Hi,

Can someone email me the web address or phone number of streamline?

LoonyP

[magnum]

I am type rated on the 777 on my european licence. I was wondering what was required to get the type rating endorsed in my FAA ATP. Any suggestions?

[pinguino]

Hi,
being at the end of my cpl/ir course I'm wondering what to do to try to (get a job or) at least keep current during this hard times. Here in italy with approx 3000£ I can choose between a vfr fi rating and then do few vfr fi hrs per month and if lucky some ifr safety pilot hrs just to keep current, or a c500 type rating and then try to beg a coupple of hours per month in some air taxi operations both with peanuts pay or without at all. A type rating would also be usefull because almost all airlines here require you to have at least one type rating (whatever the a/c) to hire you.
any advice?
thanx

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: pinguino ]

[v1rotate]

Hmmm, tough one but I would go for the type rating, if, as you said, the airlines and operators want at least one type rating.

Buon Fortuna mio amico :)

[crackerjack]

A tough decision indeed. Don't know the score in Italy but for what it's worth.....

If you think long term, an FI rating will accomplish at least two things - It'll teach you how to fly and it'll stop you being scared and making an unecessary fuss when flying bigger & better(?) things.

I know what I'd do, a type rating without line training or experience ain't worth jack.

Best of luck!!

[mutt]

Are you sure that you can do a JAA C500 type rating course for UK3000 ?? If so, where?

Thanks.

Mutt.

[fudpucker]

I also know nothing of the situation in Italy, but a few hours on a small bizjet is not going to impress anybody anywhere else. If you've just qualified, you need hours.

[Obi Wan Kirk]

Dear Pinguino,

I'd be very careful about going for a C500 Type rating in Italy. The Air Taxi operators that "sell" this deal are only after your money, you won't learn anything.

I saw an ad in Flight about A320 ratings with a school in Paris, after the sim you go off to Germany for base and line training. Once you've done the rating you could probably get a job with Volare and you won't be bonded by them. Next step would be clock up to 1500 hrs, get your ATPL and then head off to a carrier that pays better as £1.8m lira per month is a poor salary for an FO on a A320.

If you don't have the kind of money for the A320 how about doing some sim time at Oxford Air Training School. That would be good value for money, then hope someone like Alpi Eagles or Neus come along and pay for your Type rating.

Good Luck!

[pinguino]

thank you every one for the usefull answers!
mutt
yes here you can do an italianc500 t/r for about 15million lira and it usually consists in some ground school and 3 hours of traffic pattern so...
Obi Wan Kirk
...are you sure volare is willing to take me with approx 300hrsTT only because I'm t/r?
if not what to do next? with 70m I can live for a year without job if I use that for t/r and then get no job what?

[wanajob]

I would be very interested to hear from anyone that has paid for their own entry level rating. Such as SD360 or Bandit. Have you done the rating and are still waiting for a job or have you been successful? :eek:

[13579]

A well established air feight company has offered me the chance to undergo a type rating course, obviously at a not inconsequential price, with regards possible evaluation for recruitment. Is this a god idea, can I afford it, and what are the chances of them offering me a job. I've always done well, first time passes in everything, 1000hrs+, and if there is a job I can afford it, if you know what I mean. Any relevant advice appreciated

[Flysundone]

Kougar,

Just received the same letter for a SD-360 course starting in February 2002.

If it is the same company, I had a jump seat ride with them in December 2000. Flew with a training captain who took my CV and recommended me to the chief pilot. So far, it hasn't got me anywhere.
I've got similar experience, 1000+ hours, current IR, etc. and I live within 45 minutes of one of the company's bases.

I don't think I will be taking them up on their generous offer. Although I have indicated that I would be prepared to contribute to my type rating if they took me on. The type rating is not worth much if you do not get a job with them as the limited hours gained on the aircraft and the training may not be attractive to another operator.

Among their requirements for acceptance on the course is a CRM certificate. I thought MCC covered that requirement. Perhaps someone could clarify the situation.

I would be interested to hear from any other potential candidates. No doubt there will be some with ten grand + VAT burning a hole in their pocket prepared to take a chance.

[Pilot Pete]

In the current climate, with your kind of hours I think you would be mad to shell out on a type rating course with only the 'possibility' of an interview at the end of it. There are hundreds of experienced pilots on the market at present and this company (if it's the one I think it is) have been offering this for a number of years with very few people actually securing employment with them.

Search for previous threads on the same subject and also consider applying to the ATP Academy.

Good Luck

PP

[driver1]

please guys be very very careful accepting this offer, there are not many shed operators left in the UK and if you do not get the job at the end of the training this could be more money down the drain. In the last recession friends of mine did a similar thing with British Midland, very few got jobs but most got very big debts!

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: driver1 ]</p>

[MorningGlory]

I really boils my blood to think that I could not be in a more shark infested Industry!

[B2N2]

Smells a little fishy to me...
Don't know what they charged,but you might be better off spending it on some more quality-time,
50-100hrs turbine somewhere..(USA?)

[tailscrape]

Don't do it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Pilot Pete on this one. Keep your money in the Bank.

p.s. Pete, did my first ever go around for real in the airplane on Christmas day........entertaining. Handled beautifully by yours truly of course......ha ha.

[WalkingChequebook]

Things are definitely not going according to plan for me, due to recent events!

Aged 35 with a frozen ATPL, Perf A, MCC and 400 hours (120 of them multi piston) - there are no job offers.

In the current environment, what would the more experienced ppruners do with £20,000, if they aspired to flying a glass cockpit jet transport (anywhere in the world)? :-

1. Go on holiday until things improve!!?. .2. Get a jet type rating from GECAT (or similar organisation)?. .3. Do one of those "First Officer hour building programs" in the USA?. .4. Buy a share in a light (IFR) aircraft and fly a few hundred hours?. .5. Get an Instructor rating and any of the above!?

Would just like to move forward a bit! Your comments and advice are really appreciated.

Thanks and cheers,. .WCB

[+TS]

Get yourself a job as an instructor / taxi -flight / areal fotography / etc... Get as much good experience as you can and be keen.

Use a part of your 20K on stamps and phone-bills to get this "dream" job.

With the right attitude you'll get there. Plus a lot of companies and interviewers like it much better this way.

Good luck !

[aztruck]

As above but keep the ifr bit active, whether its Elite and all the PC bells and whistles or blocks of cheap frasca twin sim time, whatever it takes.. .If you get a sniff of a job there will be a sim check. Its all down to your scan. It gets rusty alarmingly quickly where jets are concerned.. .Maybe do a trip out to the US and do a Cpl IR out there. Cheap prices and a different slant on your UK experiences. No eurocontrol or landing fees!!. .Combine it with the holiday you were going to take.. .UK instructor rating is about 5 grand for a single engine basic without the multi add on/Ifr/whatever else.. .For 10 grand you could go right now to the us and get a CPL/multi/IR with Flight instructor and Multi engine plus instructor.. .At a guess it would take you around 2/3 months or maybe less. If you get the right school they will take you on and you will fly far more hours than you ever would in the UK.. .You will rack up 60 to 80 hours just doing all the instruction for the ratings.. .Let alone what you get to fly afterwards.. .BTW, a type rating might be OK on a 737, but your prospective employer might still want you to do it all again anyway!!

[devic]

Hello,. .. .I'd like to take my 737 type rating at CSA, does anyone know how's the pilot job situation in Czech Republic?

[AYR521]

What type of licence have you got?

[Doggs]

Do you speak fluently czech ? It is required by CSA to speak the language.

[devic]

Acutally I don't speak Czech, in the CSA website I didn't read anything about being able to speak Czech.

[Charlitos]

Hello everybody,. .I would like to receive your advices about this question I´m going to do:. .I actually have 550 TT and I am planning to pay for a B737-800 Jaa type rating + 250-400 fligh hours.Would you do that or would you use the amount of money that the type rating cost(aprox.45000 USD)to build more flight time in USA?I have been told that a B737-800 type rating + 250-400 hours open you a lot of doors.Is it true?. .Tnank you very much

[Stealth]

Eagle Jet offers good deals. Go for it.

[LAVDUMP]

Charlitos,. .. .Your plan sounds good. Which program in Europe provides a type rating on the 737-800 AND 200-400 hours of flight time in the aircraft? Is there such a program - flying for which airline?. .. .Another question - why does your post on the General Questions Forum state that you have 350 hours total vs. the 550 hours you mention on this forum?. .. .Good luck either way!

[AYR521]

Eagle Jet offers a JAA program on the 737-800 with 250 hours on type for 45000 USD.. .Who can afford to pay for such a program?

[Charlitos]

I made a mistake.Actually I have 350 TT.So you think that it is better to do the type rating instead of building about 1000-1500 TT in piston planes.Don´t you?I´m thinking in doing the Type Rating because it would probably help me more to get an airline job.

[A320]

Hi Charlitos,. .I think that if you can expend this amount of money in that, do it.But wouldn´t it be better to do the course that ASG-Jet offer?Does anybody know anything aboyt it?I have heard that they are not bad.

[LAVDUMP]

Let's say that you pass the Ryanair interview and go for the training. What is the likelihood that you will actually get hired on to Ryanair on the 737-800? In other words, if you pass the interview and the 737-800 training, will you get an automatic position with Ryanair? . .. .If so, take it and run! Ryanair may eventually become the largest and most financially profitable airline in Europe in the future... Heck, the opportunity to fly a brand new aircraft all around Europe for a growing airline wouldn't be too bad - even if they do work you like DOGS!!!!!. .. .Has anyone out there done this - had this type of success with Ryanair? Do you like flying the 737-800 on the line?. .. .Cheers

[Fly_146]

Sounds good value.. .. .Have you really got $45000 dollars just to burn?!

[NO AUTOLAND]

I also have that amount of money to burn, well let's say to spend, but the chance of getting hired on the -800 after getting the type rating and the 250 hours is not sure. I could also go to the casino and bet a similar sum of money on red or black!

[Aeronavigant]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me that the 737-800 NG program with Eagle jet send paying pilots to fly for Ryannair.. .But then again, once you finish your 250 hours will they hire you !!!?

[A320]

In my opinion a pilot that has about 600 TT including 400 hours on a B737-800 and a type rating on it plus a university degree(I know that Charlitos has a uni degree) is the type of pilot that the airlines are looking for.. .If he finally does the type rating + line experience he will has two very good points:. . - A B737-800 type rating + 400 hours on type. . - A University degree.

[easondown]

A320,. .. .I fly the A320 for one of the larger carriers in the UK and know lots of unemployed jet (737/319/320) type rated pilots who have several thousand hours on type, who can't get a job washing an aircraft never mind flying one. To advise a low time pilot to spend 45,000 usd on a type rating and a couple of hundred hours flying is just stupid in this current climate. He should, for instance, buy some cheap multi time in the states and build some hours and experience - or do an instructor rating. There is no quick fix or easy way to get a job at the moment.. .. .A320 how do you know what the airlines are looking for ?

[NO AUTOLAND]

onemorehold. .Charlitos. .. .your advice to Charlitos is very good. I hope he is sensible and will wait until he is absolutely 100% certain that an investment in a type rating and hours will pay off. Never mind all the disputes about PFT. The market is improving for us, but it will still take a while. I have thousands of hours, a JAA ATPL, flying an EFIS aircraft on a permanent contract, but I also do not fly the aircraft I would really like to. I have the money to buy any type rating I want, and hours on top of it, but unless it will guarantee me a job on that particular aircraft, I think it's an extremely risky investment.. .. .Good luck Charlitos!

[LAVDUMP]

No Autoland,. .. .At least you are still flying - that is a positive! Now that you have hooked us in, what type do you fly now and what type would you RATHER be flying? . .. .Best of luck

[zukur]

Beware Charlitos!. .. .A 45000 USD for showing up to work for few hours doesn´t sound sensible to me. But anyway, typerating without line training and few hundred hours on the aircraft is useless. Build up multitime and get your MCC for less money. Wasting 45000 USD in the current climate is crazy, unless you have plenty of $$$.

[stator vane]

wow, 45,000 to burn into aviation. must be a nice situation.. .. .can't say that i would put it into aviation based upon what i have seen in the last 10 years of the industry.. .. .especially on a type rating. quite a gamble, not to mention your medical possibilities.. .. .with that kind of money, you should ask a financial advisor who is not addicted to airplanes for a second opinion.

[smartcol]

Just wondering if anyone had any advice or ideas to give over the worth of a type rating.

How much do they cost ?

Where is the best place to do them ?

Which aircraft would be best to get rated on ?

Will this really help me in getting a job ?

Thanks,

[Airbus A320]

GECAT at Gatwick are probably the best place to go for a type rating if you are self-sponsoring it. I believe a B737 or A320 type rating comes in at around £14000 plus about an extra £3000 for base training with an actual airline (no job at the end of said base training, mind).

However, there is not much point in spending thousands and thousands of pounds on a type rating at the moment (as I'm sure you will already know) as the industry is flooded with the reminants of Sabena, Swissair, etc.

The best thing to do with regards to type rating would be to apply for the ATP acadamy (there are numerous threads about this place in these pages) as you only have to cough up £6000 while some airline pays the rest and you are guaranteed a trial period with them at the end of it. I know that easyJet and JMC took on many people from here, but as above, places are scarce due to the masses of type rated people already on the market.

[smartcol]

Thanks for the advice, I will consider my options.
What about a rating on a King Air or a Lear Jet, would that be a good idea ???

[Go-Around]

Not unless you've passed all your exams first mate!

[MJR]

I discussed doing a type rating with a rep. from Balpa a while ago. He suggested that the idea of doing a self funded type rating came out in a previous aviation recession, and provided an opportunity for redundant pilots to get a rating on an aircraft which had better employment prospects.

In my own un-qualified opinion getting a type rating without having any previous heavy aircraft experience is a waste of money unless you have an agreement with a potential employer before hand.

Perhaps someone can prove me wrong?

TTFN

[The Potter]

A type rating, with just the obligatory one hour on type, really is not worth the money that you will have to part with. I agree with the other posts on this thread: there are far to many type rated, and the important bit - commercially experienced - guys out there.

I know that it's frustrating & you just want to do anything to get that job, but it would be a damn sight more frustrating if you were still in the same situation but minus £12 - £15k.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

I appreciate that a MEP rating relates to piston aircraft, however since there is no jet equivelant, does the MEP rating need to be valid before undertaking a type conversion? I'm guessing that a specific type rating on say a 737/A320 includes the ME part anyway.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks

Ivan

[ElNino]

According to the IAA (which is now JAA compliant and thus presumably quoting the JAR), a valid MEIR is a requirement for undertaking a type-rating in a ME aircraft.

I take your question to referring to a ME class-rating. Not so sure about the specific requirement to have this, but pocession of an MEIR would mean a valid MEP class rating too? Could be wrong about the last part and would also like to know the definitive answer.

[pilotman]

Hi, I have another question. In Type Rating schools,some of them have computer based ground school, some have traditional ground school.Which one is good?In training, would this make any difference?
Thank You for your answer............

[A and C]

I have done the Boeing 737NG type rating with the computor and it was OK but only because it was backed up by an instructor who knew the aircraft very well.

It is the second type rating I have done on the computor (the other was the A320 airframe/engine maintenance) and both of these courses would have been useless without the help of an instructor however I still favor the old style "chalk and talk" type instruction.

[haselled]

Just a quick question.....does anyone know whether the cost of a 737 type rating with Go or easyjet is paid for fully by the airline, or deducted monthly over a three year period from the employees salary?

[Rednex]

Has anybody paid for a type rating with results (not the ryanair way) Heard a rumor that there are very few unemployed 737 and A320 type rated pilots out there. If this is true seems like a good way of getting your lucky break into the market. Anybody had any luck??

[Gassbag]

seems like some airlines want us to pay for type ratings. would be an advantge, in employers eyes, to have one but it's more expense. Will those that stump up and pay to do it set the prescedent for all of us. Guess money makes the world go round though!!!;)

[Broken Wings]

Rednex

If our illustrious Moderators read this and reply I think they'll probably advise not. My two penny worth is:
1. I understand most companies want a type rating plus 3-500 hours on type.
2. Not doing the type rating with a specific comapny means you won't have learned their Standard Operating Procedures, which may be a draw back. ie they'll put you through a conversion anyway.

It's a difficult one but I think you may be better off keeping the CPL/IR current on a MEP and keeping/obtaining other work to live off until the break comes.

If it's any consolation I have nearly 5000 hours (2300 Mulit Jet) and I'm unemployed too. I will keep the IR current and not risk a 737 TR.

Best of luck and network as best you can.

[fcom]

I was in a similar position like you guys are now.I finished my training at the age of 33 and couldn't even get an interview with only 300 hrs and a surplus of pilots on the market with thousands of hrs experience.I was 3 yrs down the line and 45K poorer and so about 9 yrs ago I decided to mortgage the house and get a 320 rating.I was told that with my experience I would find it extremely difficult to get hired and that I was wasting my money.I figured that if I was to have any chance at all of any kind of flying job I had to give it a shot no matter how small the odds.Sure enough I didn't get a look in for a further 2 yrs but out of the blue came my lucky break where an operator based at LHR needed a type rated pilot to start within 2 days. I was ready even though my IR wasnt current and had only flown a handful of hrs on light A/c during that time. In my experience you need to make your own luck and make yourself as employable as possible to try and get to the front of the queue.I was nearly 38 when I got my first flying job and straight onto jets. I followed my gut feeling, if I hadn't I may have been left on the kerb.Once you get 500 hrs commercial experience behind you then you are in the system and will seldom look back. My advice is if you can afford to take the chance do it because it may just give you the edge.

[robione]

It would be nice to see some more opinions on this matter, im seriously considering it myself, particularly in the light of what the IPA state, that they dont advise self-sponsered type ratings unless your a late starter. I consider myself in this category holding a frozen ATPL 520hrs and just turned 44.Will be an interesting thread this one.

[buttline]

Should be an interesting thread for sure! From what I've seen, many disapprove of this on the basis of people "buying their way in".

For those who disapprove, please bear in mind that those of us older fellows have worked hard for many years in nightmare jobs to build up the money to sponsor our selves through - we're probably already somewhat disadvantaged by age - if paying for a type rating offsets the grey hair somewhat, you can hardly begrudge us that...

However, I must say that rather than just do a type rating, I would try to get onto the CTC ATP scheme (if 34 or less). Seems a better route through to me and well respected. If over 34, perhaps talk to them for advice?

I do share concerns about it raising the bar for everyone but I think it's unlikely that the majority will go for it - it's just because of the market situation right now and I imagine it will go away again when hiring improves.

[Saint00]

There will always be people willing to pay.
There will always be people willing to work for free.
The wannabes of today are working really hard to destroy the market for themselfs. In some countries even the goverment take an aktive part ie goverment finaced high school programs.

[Splat]

My tuppence worth is that I know of several people who bought their type ratings and where subsequently offered a job afterwards.

They all did their homework before hand, but none the less if's a seriously risky strategy.

Six years ago, base training on BM 737's was running at £43 a minute. Makes the IR rates seem cheap, but just imagine what sort of costs you could rack up if you needed a bit of extra time.

S

[BronzeAge]

"There will always be people willing to work for free.
The wannabes of today are working really hard to destroy the market for themselves"


Totally agree. :rolleyes:

[foghorn]

As has been said, it is a very high risk strategy, however the rewards are high.

If you can afford to lose the money, do it.

If you can't, do your homework and think it through properly before doing it. You are likely to be throwing that money away if your plans come to nought. Would the £15 or so grand be better spent on an instructors rating, leaving some cash over to help live on an instructor's salary?

As has been said, the CTC scheme is a better bet for those 34 or younger.

A well-worn route is buying a type rating on an older turboprop (Shed, F27) - the likes of BAC and Streamline get many of their pilots this way, so you stand a good chance of being employed and will get plenty of multi-turbine hours in return, however it's a lot of money to pay for a type rating on an obsolescent aircraft flown by few operators.

The other option is a B737 or A320 type rating. Personally, if I had the cash to throw away I'd be tempted to go for a 737NG rating due to the large number of potential airlines in the UK(whilst keeping an eye on Easy/Go's fleet expansion plans because they might go A320).

cheers!
foggy.

[Chill]

Saint00

Could you save the melodramatic opinions for the tabloids and try backing up what you surmise. (And that's "themselves", "Government", "active" and "financed".)

I'm no economist, but the aviation industry cycles through "booms" and "busts" like any other industry trailing the national economy. Pre-requisite experience vs training on-the-job has historically been a part of the labour market in not just the aviation industry for the better part of the last 3-4 decades. Whether prospective employees pay/don't pay, demand a wage/work for less is inextricably linked to the health of the industry and the economy. An open mind and calculated flexibility will get you further than clinging on to yesteryears ideals in todays market. Success favours the resourceful not the stoic - I've watched it happen around me at multiple levels in several industries. Besides those that you would accuse of killing the industry, be they employees or employers, would be by far the minority IMHO. Wake up and smell the daisies - times are changing.

foggy

Thank you - my point exactly.

[Saint00]

I agree Chill.

It is how you act in the low times that will determine how the high times will be. A goverment can take an active part by having goverment sponsored traning when there is no need for it.
It is good old supply and demand. The times will change but the standards set today will remain.

[Gassbag]

Excuse my ignorance, Im seeing CTC mentioned all over different threads who are they, what do they do, and whats their web address?
cheers

Agree with what you're all saying on this matter. I guess we've just got to try our hardest to achieve our aims, but there will always be options to jump the queue!!;)

[buttline]

Jump the queue!? I was under the impression the seniority system started once you began employment, not training. :)

[eagerbeaver]

A type rating is a good idea, i am trying to orgaise one at the moment on the B737 but cannot get an aircraft plus they try an pair people up. If anyone is seriously interested email me.

Ta

the luckiest person i ever met was also the hardest working

[sally at pprune]

Gassbag (http://www.ctcaviation.com)

[Cross Check]

You've Got Mail!

[ElNino]

Is it necessary to have a current MEP class rating as well as a current Multi IR to undertake a type rating course in a multi engine aircraft?

[IRRenewal]

JAR-FCL 1.250 - Type Rating, Multi Pilot - Conditions

(a) Pre-requisite for training: An applicant for the first type rating for a multi-pilot aeroplane type shall:

(1) have at least 100 hours as PIC of aeroplanes;
(2) have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A).

(b) Training for additional multi-pilot type ratings require a valid multi-engine instrument rating.


From this it would appear you need the IR, but not the MEP Class rating.

Regards

[orninn]

You can't be holding a multi-engine instrument rating (A).
unless you have the ME class rating.

[IRRenewal]

Not correct: under JAR they are separate things. It just means you cannot exercise the IR privileges in a twin, but if your SEP class rating is valid then you can exercise IR privileges on the single.

Cheers

[FormationFlyer]

Um hang on a mo....they may well be separate things...and always have been.

However, you cannot be pilot in command of a type that you do not have a class/type rating for...therefore unless you qualify for the MEP class rating you will be unable to take the flight test or renew the instrument rating. Even if the MEP isnt issued you must still have passed a skills test...

At least AFAIK this is the case...hence all OATS students etc will have valid MEP class ratings (deemed by having passed a ME skills test) *before* their IRT.

FF

[ElNino]

Thanks for these replies. I think a few points are raised. While clearly to take an initial IR one needs the MEP class rating. However, if a renewal were done in a simulator, would the class rating still be needed as the "flight" is not actually done in an aircraft?
While this would obviously mean that the full privileges of the licence (i.e. to fly an MEP in IFR) could not be exercised, it would appear that the requirement to hold a Multi-IR in order to undertake a type -rating would be fulfilled.
Whilst having the MEP rating would be preferable, the chances of getting a Seneca type job with my low hours is non-existant, so I would like to be able to renew the IR using the cheap simulator option whilst retaining all the qualifications necessary to start a type-rating course if any jobs do appear.

[flyingdog]

I have a friend who just got hired, his MEP and multi IR were expired, it had to go in a sim and revalidate the multi IR ... the MEP was not required ... good luck ;)

[Speedbird744]

Is there a huge risk if a pilot goes out after training and buys a 757 type rating and fails to find a job in a 757?
Do many people do them themselves and get jobs after a while?

[Gin Slinger]

Think most people who self-sponsored type ratings tend to so for turboprops rather than 757's et al.

Having said that, there's nothing stopping you going out and getting a B747 type rating on your PPL, not that it would be any use at all.

[mattpilot]

i guess many people (those who have lots of cash) go out and get type ratings just to show a potential employer that they are capable of obtaining ratings. Because a employer would hate nothing more than a new hired guy who can't pass the type rating check ride.

just my opinion though

[Vsf]

Buying a type rating is generally a bad idea. In some cases, such as Southwest airlines, they required a 737 type rating (that may have changed), but that was for seasoned, qualified pilots to begin with.

In the U.S., at least, having a type in an airliner does not relieve your employer of the onus of sending you to school anyway. The pilot has to complete an approved training course. This can get complicated, but at the root of it, a mere type rating gets you...nowhere, at least from what I know.

I've seen plenty of guys get types, mostly in 737's, to try to "demonstrate" to employers that they "can fly the aircraft." For whatever reason, the employers don't seem to care.

The conventional wisdom is that a type without experience in that type is essentially worthless. As cynical as it is, I have to agree with it. If you're going to claw your way up in aviation, better to keep your cash safely in hand, 'cuz you'll need it for food!

[foghorn]

Because they can?

I don't mean to be facetious, it's one of those things that IMHO you should do only if spending that much money on something that might turn out worthless does not bother you. It's a very high risk strategy (but it has worked for a few).

[gorky]

some employers trie to make you "buy" your own type rating.
if they dont find anybody with a type rating, tjey will pay you it.
when an airline run a B737, believe me, they can offer you the type rating.
So, STOP to pay for your type rating and it shows you have money and you can work for free too!

bye the way, I offer 500h on B767 for 50'000$.Must have JAA or FAA ATPL frozen and type rating!

:D

[Professor Fog]

Gorky - I have 300 hrs and have just recently got a 767 rating and I am interested in buying 500 hrs on type. Is this offer only available in the US ?? If so can you set up the visas etc ??

[gorky]

sorry professor,
you must have atp with 6000h on the b767.
only pilot with space shuttle experience will be considered to fly from Gatwick.
:D

[mattpilot]

yo gorky .. if ya give me a 50/50 cut then i wont report you to authorities :D :D

[Pitts S2B]

Southwest no longer require a Type rating at interview, If they like you they will give you a conditional job offer, the condition being that you get a type rating before you start.

[gorky]

mattpilot,
I work for ryanair,authority do what I say...:D

[MorningGlory]

Professor Fog,

You obviously have a lot more money than sense!

Its bad enough paying in some cases up to £60K for a fATPL, in order to get a job.

This way of training and with no structured route into a definite job on graduation is ludicrous, and anyone from any other business looking at us would think we are all mad.

Well maybe we are, but paying for a type rating too, is just taking it too far! At that stage and probably before, this industry has made a complete fool of you and and us all!

[Flying Farmer]

Morning all

A question to any recruiting personell or anyone who has gone down this route.
Have at the moment a fATPL with an FI(R) just added and have bieng offered some part time instructing, but this will not pay the bills.
Late Sept early Oct it looks likley that I will be made redundant from my non flying job so will have a small payoff plus golden handshake if lucky.
Question is, do I get myself a shed type rating or similar or get myself down to Dibden and do the Airline Qualification Course in the hope of making myself employable, only 300 hrs TT at present.

Regards

Flying F

[foghorn]

FF

I'm thinking along the same lines myself, especially considering that the Shed rating can be done at Southend so I have no accommodation costs.

Both are a gamble really, although you can go through the first two stages of the CTC selection if you're under 34 (or whatever the limit is) without paying a penny - the AQC forms the third stage of selection.

At the moment I'm leanign toward the shed rating, but I change my mind often (plus its two grand more expensive)

cheers!
foggy.

[Flying Farmer]

40 at the moment so will have to pay my way at CTC

Difficult one this

Flying F

[worzel]

I considered a Shed type rating about 18 months ago just after I got my licence. The company I looked at offer the rating and the possibility of a job at the end of it. Before you go ahead with it, It may be worth asking the training provider how many people have done the course and how many positions have been filled recently. When I looked into it, the number of people gaining the rating far outwieghed those who were offered positions. Bearing in mind that there are not that many Shed operators these days, I decided that the chances of getting a position were fairly small.

worzel

[tailscrape]

FF,

I am ex CTC.

I have to say that I think the AQC would be the best option, however as you are over 34 I don't think they will help you. You certainly will not get a jet job thru CTC at your age.....sorry, but I think that is a fact.

A "SHED" rating? Don't know the value of one to be honest. As someone said, there ain't many "SHED" operators about. If I were you, I would concentrate on getting another non flying job. Keep instructing and keep your cash in the bank until things pick up.... and I reckon there will be recruitment in small numbers later this year.

Join BALPA as an associate member and pay £30 to go to the EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES CONFERENCE in London in October. See what employers say there. Even ask them directly as to what may be best.........it is a bunfight, but you WILL get up to date information.

You can then use your cash to pay for whatever may help you best then......

Remember a co pilot on a "SHED" will earn about £19k tops I reckon.......is it worth the risk?

[schuler_tuned]

I'm also pondering this myself. At age 35, I don't know if CTC can help or not, guess I'll have to ask them how strict the 34 age limit is?
I've been reliably informed that there are aprox' 30 Shed's on the U.K. reg, operators include Emerald and Chan-Ex', both of which operate out/into Cov, which is my base and where Streamline do the type rating. By the way Chan-Ex have been interviewing recently for the Cov rostering.
The plus points of CTC are, even if you're too old for the ATP scheme, and you reach the required grade that would have allowed you entry you have an MCC that is a recognisable standard for the likes of Ezy/Monarch/Brits/Maersk. Not a bad thing for the old CV, and a definate plus for any sim' check, as the third week envolves jet handling on a similar type - the pondering continues!

[AMEX]

The plus points of CTC are, even if you're too old for the ATP scheme, and you reach the required grade that would have allowed you entry you have an MCC that is a recognisable standard for the likes of Ezy/Monarch/Brits/Maersk. Not a bad thing for the old CV, and a definate plus for any sim' check, as the third week envolves jet handling on a similar type - the pondering continues!

An MCC is nothing more than an MCC. CTC is good for the low time who will get on board the scheme and later on land a jet job but whether you have done an MCC with The Academy, Multiflight or the Wright's Brothers, this has hardly any relevance in the selection process.

Like the man Tailscrape has said, for the over 34, get a cheap MCC, save the £,err... I mean your pounds and keep current, fly instrument, get an instructor rating, do anything to keep the old log book ticking.

As for getting a Shed rating, well, apart from the principle that I don't necessarily support, most importantly are the rather limited prospect.

[tailscrape]

Guys,

AMEX is spot on.

As for the over 34 rule, it used to be VERY STRICTLY enforced. i.e. NO-ONE over 34 gets on the ATP scheme.

I am sure this chap won't mind me saying, but here goes:

I did my ATP Academy sim with perhaps the most capable pilot I have ever met. He was just 35 then. He aced the sim and then got told he was too old for the jet course. He now flies a Turbo for a UK regional.

He is quite frankly one of the best hand fliers I have seen and a bloody nice guy.

Don't get your hopes up about rule bending at CTC. They just don't need to do it.

[easondown]

Just out of interest - how much do they charge for a shed rating ?

[foghorn]

Streamline do one for about £8,000. I think BAC do one for about £10,500.

I'm not sure why there's a price difference - maybe aircraft rental rates - Streamline have a Shorts 330 available whereas maybe BAC have an all SD360 fleet (therefore higher a/c rental)?

It's a common type rating for the 330 and 360.

cheers!
foggy.

[easondown]

Foghorn,

you can do a B737-300 type rating for less than 15,000 pounds at gatwick - wouldn't that be more useful ?

[tailscrape]

easondown,

Like anything in life, of course a 737 rating sounds better than a SD360 rating.

However, realistically how many 737 operators will give you a job with no experience on type except half a dozen circuits? Not many I think. Perhaps Ryanair will give you a pittance for coming qualified? I don't know.

easyJet have stated 500 hours on type is their minimum now, and I doubt that you get that included in a type rating. Unless you are really hopeless. In which case it will cost more than 15 grand won't it?

I still say "keep your money in the bank" until a clearer employment picture develops.

[scroggs]

I've received the following information about Streamline's Shed rating setup which you might find of interest:

1. Ground school is done at Southend. Flying training can be either Southend or Coventry. It depends on where the 330 is.
2. Not every one will get a job after doing the course. Just as not every one will get a job after doing the CPL. Many people stuff their chances by abusing the office staff. Very bad move.
3. TRTO is a lower priority to the scheduled work and ad hoc charters.
4. Now taking on FO's from the courses ran latter half of last year.

In general, I'd advise that type ratings are not very useful if you don't have experience behind you. A shiny 737 rating with no line hours is a total waste of time and money. A Shed rating with reasonable air time might be worth a go if you fancy that kind of flying, but there are very few Shed operators these days!

[AMEX]

easondown
Although I had a disagreement with Tailscrape on a few occasions, I must say the man might not be telling what you would like to hear but he has a fair point.
Do what what you like, he only speaks from experience.......

As far as from having a hobby/life, no problem for him, he has/will get more/plenty of time for that.

See you on the Golf course ;)

[easondown]

Amex,

I am also speaking from experience. A good friend of mine has recently completed B737 rating and got a job straight after it. Its not something I'll be doing as I'm quite happy flying the A320 at the moment.

[AMEX]

:D I love posting at 3 am after returning from the Pub.
Makes great reading the next day ;)

[Flying Farmer]

Thanks for all the replys, still undecided which way to go.

One more question to those in the know.
Is it possible for the over 34's to pay there own way and complete the AQC course, if so does it get you any higher up the CV pile and more employable.

Thanks again

Flying F

[Fly_146]

Unless the intention is to go through the mill of the ATP scheme (which you can't due age) then is it really worth the £6.5K for ten or so hours in a generic 737 sim?

No doubt the experience of an AQC will be of extremely high quality tuition which will help in any forthcoming airline sim assessments, but will any chief pilots know what an AQC is when they read your cv?

Surely you would want to keep as much money in the bank if you are about to lose your regular income?

As for the shed rating, I know two people that did it and both eventually got jobs, but that was a couple of years ago.

[Trainee pilot]

I am seriously considering doing the Shed rating even if this would mean being placed into a holding pool. One thing though, would it be better to lay out an extra 3-4 grand and perhaps go for an F27 or ATR rating as there are more operators about? Anyway, if anyone is thinking about doing the Streamline course please E-Mail me for a chat!

[foghorn]

easondown,

The problem with the 737 rating is that £16,500 (GECAT quoted figures) only buys you the groundschool and sim parts of the rating - the base training is around another £4,000.

You can get an SD330/360 rating for £8,000 and that includes 7 hours in the aircraft.

I could stretch to £8,000 if it increased my chances of being employed. At the moment £20,500 I could not stretch to without robbing a bank or discovering a rich uncle I didn't know about. It's proving hard enough working out where the money to renew my IR is coming from (thank you Mr Visa)...

Of course, as has been highlighted, the Shed operators that offer type ratings fit the training in around their usual flying program so you could be left waiting a long time to complete the course - as the old saying goes 'time to spare, go by air' I suppose.

Thanks for the inside track on the shed rating, Scroggs.

cheers!
foggy.

[easondown]

Foghorn,

You are right about the Gecat figures at Gatwick, but there is another company at Gatwick which will do the B737 type rating for approx 15000 pounds inc base training and vat.
Hope this inf is helpful.

[Meeb]

Yes but that 'other' company at gatwick do not even have the decency to answer e-mails or telephone enquiries... :mad:

[foghorn]

Who is it, btw?

cheers!
foggy.

[easondown]

Foghorn,

The companys' name is Astraeus.

[foghorn]

Ah. I was not aware of that fact.

[MorningGlory]

You know it really worries me after reading these posts that so many of you are considering paying up to 18k for your own type ratings!

For what? Sure the experience will be worth while but wake up please!! 18K????

No airline is interested in somebody who has a type rating and no experience on type! This is merely putting cash in the pockets of the businesses that operate these courses, it really is not benefitting you enough for the amount of money it costs!

You'd be far better off investing in a decent MCC course and or an instructors rating to build more hours and gain experience that way.

IMHO, and that is all it is, I believe that you guys are shooting not only yourselves in the feet but also the other poor studes out there also looking for a job at the end of already shifting £50k on a course!

Please dont let the airlines EXPECT us to pay for our own type ratings in future, by building those foundations now, for your own sakes.

I personnally will be investing in the AQC, after IR, and am very much looking forward to it, but I would not even consider paying so much money for a type rating when the airlines would want to retrain you anyway in accordance with their own operating proceedures.

[foghorn]

Mate,

Get your IR.
Get an MCC.
Get an instructors rating and join the queue looking for instructing jobs.
Apply for airline jobs for years and get nothing but Dear John letters.

You might then look at things differently.

I do not wish to reignite the old debate re self-sponsored type ratings. There are pros and cons of every approach to getting a job.

At the end of the day it's all to do with market forces. If there are enough people out there with the money or access to credit to pay for a type rating, people will self sponsor and airlines will hire them. There is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that a significant number of people have been hired with self-sponsored type ratings in the past - often by the airline with whom they are doing their base training.

To apply your argument ad absurdum none of us should be paying for our CPL/IRs - the airlines should stump up through sponsorship. But then how many of us self-sponsored (foggy's hand goes up)?

Also notice that quite a few of the people considering the type rating route are (cough) more mature and have families and other commitments. Several years of instructing on the breadline may not be a viable option for them (hell, I'm only 29 and I don't fancy that sort of money again - I struggled to live on similar money last time at the start of my 'old' career).

Sure, it's one hell of a big gamble for the less than rich. But then, isn't life a series of calculated gambles? Wasn't doing the CPL/IR in the first place? You pays your money and takes your choice.


cheers!
foggy

[Flypuppy]

I dont see how a self funded Type Rating is a good idea. It plays into the hands of the likes of Ryanair, while they make a fortune out of their core business of flying people around, they charge desperate wannabe's for a type rating. WHY??

There is no justification for this other than the fact that employers seem to have figured out that pilots in general are fairly dis-united group of employees and wannabes in particular are completely unrepresented. Neither BALPA nor the IPA represent the views of wannabes. Is not bad enough to be bonded?

Paying for your own type rating is only going to screw it up for others that follow later. I certainly cannot justify to myself (and certainly not to the wife) spending an extra 18k on a type rating. If enough people do this how long will it be before it is another "requirement". We have been hoodwinked into paying for MCC courses ourselves. I keep wondering whats next?

[MorningGlory]

1st point: Foggy, I am not your mate.

2nd point: Even though I would side on not having to pay for your type rating, just so that it doesn't ever become another standard requirement by the airlines, I can however see the point of view of those more financially fortunate with nothing better to do than waste their money!

[foghorn]

1st point: Foggy, I am not your mate.

Well, that's me told then :rolleyes:

[easondown]

Morning Glory,

I do understand what you are saying, and luckily enough I've never had to pay for a type rating, but an interesting fact is that, EJ, Ryanair etc are all loosley based around the Southwest model in the USA and they only hired pilots who payed for their own type ratings. Perhaps this is the way the UK/European market is heading in the next few years - food for thought !!!

[foghorn]

I don't have too many problems with paying for type ratings after a firm job offer has been made as long as the pilot is then not bonded for conversion/airline specific training.

To bond already-rated people is IMHO wrong.

[fibod]

Not just wrong foggy, it will not stick in court, so I am toild by a reliable souce. Bonds work only because of a loss incurred by the employer. No loss, no case.

[Flying Farmer]

Thanks all for the input,

I must say that I am against the idea of paying for my own type rating.
The problem is I want to fly. At the age of 39 decided on a career change, got my self retrained, did well passed every thing, exams and flight tests, except IR, first time. Thought this might, just might get me a sniff at a job. Sadly I was very much mistaken.
With the remaining money from my redundancy all I would like is to is make my self more employable.
Have taken all advice onboard, think I'll just go into round 3 of CV deployment and save cash.

Safe flying to you all

Flying F

[Grivation]

People who know me know that I am dead against the 'paying for a type rating' argument. However, there seems to be quite a few wannabes who are prepared to go down this path.

So - with the introduction of the new single-engine turbine IFR legislation on the horizon I am suggesting to wannabes that if you are interested in paying for a type rating you should be looking seriously at the C208 or PC12. Sure, single-engine time in the logbook but they have more modern systems than you will find in any F27, it's a turbine engine and they are operated in copious numbers around the world.

Forget about paying for F27, SH360 and 737 type ratings (leave that for the employers!). If you must - go and get yourself an SET rating that will be of some use in the future.

[Speevy]

Wow I have to say I agree with what you say (Even though I know the Cesna Caravan and about its complexity I wouldn't compare it to a F27). I just would like to know where I could get some more info about price and requirement for this Type rating. :confused:

[Crosswind Limits]

The main question is whether such turbine aircraft will be certified single or multi crew! Single crew = likely 700 hrs min requirement.

[Splat]

Trust a lawyer to come out with a line like that......;)

[Crosswind Limits]

Greetings Splat! :) How's things for you? I'm currently at home weighing up options and turning my hand to some DIY and home improvements. :eek:

[Grivation]

As far as I am aware the first C208 which rolled off the line in 1985 was certified single-pilot and nothng has since changed.

In line with the other countries operating SET's on IFR operations (Canada, Australia, S. Africa, etc) I would imagine that the CAA will require two bods on pax operations and single-pilot for cargo. However, there is nothing to stop you pulling the A/P C/B and logging P2 time on a cargo operation ;)

[tailscrape]

Grivation,

DHL are going to use the Caravan when it becomes available in the UK?

Ditch aging twin engined aircraft......what on earth are you saying?

DHL fly the 757 in the UK! Slightly larger than a Caravan..... old yes, but in the same league? NO!

Unless you have some definite info on job opportunities with a type rating, I imagine your info may be a little bit misguided.

You could have wannabees paying for Caravan ratings, then ringing up DHL to be told ...... "Sorry, unless you have at least 1500 hours, with a minimum of 1000 hours on the 757 type, you will not be of any use to DHL", oh dear.

I see what you are saying is trying to be helpful, but I wonder if it may not be a little misleading? After all, DHL don't even fly turboprops! Not in UK anyway.... and I believe EAT have ordered 757's too..... in fact I think the only DHL affiliate airlines in the network are Swiftair with Convairs.... or the others may be contractors.

I still would not advise anyone to pay for type ratings without a guaranteed job offer in writing...

[faacfi]

I have flown the 208, nice plane but cost 1.5 million $.Insurance will ask for at least 1500h for the Pilot in command and 500h for the second in command if company want 2 pilots.Depend of the number of pilot available on the market.(that is my opinion)
My question is: do you know when single turbine will be authorized in europe in commercial op.?with pax or no pax?
this law will be very good for us (low time pilots) and for the industry.:)

[Grivation]

Oh for God sake tailscrape - you know as well as I do that DHL aren't going to replace a fleet of 757's with 375 x C208's!

What I'm saying is that if people are going to pay for type ratings they should be looking at modern aircraft like the PC12 and 208 which will more than likely start to substantially increase their presence in UK airspace from mid next year.

I will however suggest that some of the F27/SH360/HS748/Electra etc class operators might suffer some loss of market share - perhaps to a more frequent, smaller capacity Caravan fleet.

I'd hate to see young folks paying large sums of money to operators like Streamline and BAC Express for type ratings which might be in less demand in 12 months time. In fact I hate to see wannabes paying for them at all :mad:

[tailscrape]

Grivation,

Yes, well you see your advice has people jumping up and down because they imagine that what you say may well happen.

Look at the post immediately after your first one.

Some chap was bursting at the thought of doing such a type rating, not because he wants to fly the airplane perhaps but more likely because you mention DHL and FEDEX......

Things are slowly improving, and people paying for ratings only slows the market all the more. Your sentiment about paying for ratings is spot on, but there are people on this forum in particular who are desperate for a job.

I would hate them to be misguided.:rolleyes:

[Grivation]

Point taken and noted - DHL & Fedex references removed to avoid misleading idiots!;)

For a low houred wannabe heading off to Africa/Asia looking for work I could think of a lot worse things in a logbook than a C208 rating! Think outside the UK - there's a great big world out there.

[Grivation]

So I finally get a chance to sit down and read this week's Flight Int and what greets me on the first page (I always read from back to front!) -

"Newly qualified pilot looking for initial interview for right hand seat. 300 hours, 62 multi (god forbid!). WILLING TO PAY FOR OWN TYPE RATING." :(

We really must stop this kids!

[JJflyer]

A useful type rating is one that gets you the job. If you are guaranteed a position upon completing a type course and the promised job will cover for the investment, then I say , go for it.

Statistically a B737 type would be the best type to get as there are quite a bunch of B737´s flying around the world. But this depends what you want to do and where you are aiming at. If you want to fly a Caravan a B727 type will do you no good.

I would be very careful of investing a lot of money intio a rating that you might not able to use. This is especially true with lowtime pilots (Under 1000 hours). A 300 hour pilot with a B737 or B747 type with no experience in the aircraft , well,you only demonstrate that you can pass a training course and a checkride and will be in the bottom of the line when pilots are being selected with virtually everyone with time in type in front of you. Airlines still will train you to their standards and procedures regardless if you have a type or not.

Cheers

[Speevy]

SIZE=1]Hey what the f**k is going in here?

Hey Grivation first of all I don't understand why you mislead only idiots (probably like me) when you talk bout Fedex and etc.

I agree about getting a usefull type rating (and that's why I asked more info about the C208) but Tailscrape was right about explaining the situation in Europe (there are "idiots" that don't know the situation as well as you do) and I gotta say you are right when you say that the world is big and that a type rating in such airplanes could help to get a job somewhere else than Europe (but they usually ask also for experience on type which is even harder to get).

Tailscrape what's the problem?
There are a lot of unployed pilots out there that will probably pay for a type rating but I don't think you should stop them (if you wanna get hired you should be among the bests and this means you should have something more than everybody else, like a Type rating)

If I can I will try to get something without paying for anything but hey everybody needs to work don't we????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[/SIZE]

[v1rotate]

Grivation,

Saw your comments regarding BAC and felt I had to comment/inform. BAC don't just take anyone who is willing to pay for the rating. There was an interview followed by a sim check (out of 6, only 2 got selected). In my case, the job was offered before I paid for the rating. Of course I would rather not have paid for the rating but at my age (early 30's), and desperate to get a flying job, do you think I should have waited for some company to say:

"Hey, here's this kid who has NO experience, NO type rating, NO time on any type, NO commercial experience; why don't we just spend a whole heap of cash on him and see what happens"

Given the amount of newly qualified wannabes out there, it's a very difficult task trying to compete with the next bloke who has the same hours (<500 total time). A type rating in this case could/would help.

I would not however pay for a type rating before being offered the job. I say, get the job then pay if you have to. Nothing worse than completing the rating and the company to say, "Sorry, looks like we are all crewed up, call us again in 6 months"

[Splat]

Well, v1, I got a letter from BAC in reply to my CV saying something along the lines of thank you, but we have no vacancies at present, but would be happy to sell you a TR. It was also made clear that they would only employ those with TR's. Read into that what yo like, but I'm not rushing into it.

S

[number]

Hello,

I was recently told that doing an MCC together with a type rating is much better than an MCC by itself: someone told me that an MCC by itself it's useless and I can save money by doing it together with a TR. Does it make any sense?
Another question: better a B737 type rating and 0 flight time or a B737 first officer program with plenty of flight time but also extremely expensive?
The point is that a job is not guaranteed both with the TR or TR+few hundred hours, and the second option is 3 times more expensive...
opinions are very welcome! my email: [email protected]

[Splat]

Oh dear.

I hope you've got your bullet proof vest on. This place does not advocate doing type ratings.

When I did the MCC, I was told something completely different, and it was suggested that if you run into trouble with the TR, they would use the MCC as a means of catching up, ie less of the genuine MCC stuff. I'd also watch out for companies selling TR's.

S

[AK747]

Never done a Poll so here we go….

In the past weeks I have been reading posts on Pprune on the topic of “buying” your own type rating. When you talk to some smaller airlines in Europe they all have the regular hoops they want you to jump. And it seems that a Type Rating is the last. I have been in touch with a small airline and they said that they would write a “letter of conditional employment” if I indeed got the type. So the big question is.

Just out of interest how many people bought there type rating to get a job…
and how many did buy the type only to be told “sorry you need time on type”

Before you jump all over me and tell me about that we pilots must stick together and all that.
I do agree… but there are always daddy’s boys out there and they are doing it!
So why not Me?. A poor man looking to asked the bank manager… “Can I have some more please”?
I know the market is bad right now and that things will get better ….. but that does not help when you have goals and dreams.

All advice and remarks are highly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
AK

[number]

Thanks for answering Splat. I'm not willing to spend plenty of money for a TR either. The point is, what else can I do? I've been catching up the rumors around, however nobody proposed anything really interesting and feasible.
A Quick entry to a big airline through an 8 months training was interesting for example, however, at least in my country, these trainings are being suspended.

[AMEX]

A Quick entry to a big airline through

Perhaps there is NO quick way in..... A lot of people should realise that me think.

[AMEX]

I have heard the talks about the Caravan getting appoved by the CAA for public Transport when I fist got involved with it, in 1997 (5 years ago).
Yes things will change but no one really knows when for sure. Wait until it happens.
Also, I have worked for a European operator operating the type and I can tell you one thing. No other type rating than one acquired through Flight Safety was accepted by the insurance people.
Bear that in mind if you think the Cargo airlines are about to get some.
How many guys have I seen turning up with the 208 endorsment thinking it would give them an edge ?
Well as much as they were all nice and friendly there was no other way but to bond them again after that had already spent a few grands in a course.

Before you all rush and do the cheapest Class rating you can find just because you think it will give you an edge. Wait to see what will really happen.
Also the UK isn't the States, there won't be 100s of Caravan wearing the Fedex's colors. A few but not hundreds so if you all rush and do it all you end up achieving is spending more money and once again, face the same old competition.

If I were you, I would work on my IR currency, regular flying, networking rather than rushing into something with limited prospects (none at the moment).

[Grivation]

How about an option that says -

'Would never consider paying for a type rating because it erodes industry terms and conditions and is a legitimate business expense that operators should be paying for!!!!!!'

[Grivation]

Number if you're intent on spending money why don't you go and build some piston multi time somewhere (US, Canada, Australia). Or why not do some add-on ratings - floats, tailwheel, aeros etc. Anything that shows you've got well rounded experience will make your cv stand out.

And thank God you're not willing to spend money on a type rating - hopefully the message is getting through!

[Grivation]

V1rotate - I don't have a problem with people paying for a type rating or negotiating a bonding period in lieu if they have been offered a job. If that was the case with you then well done!

What I don't like is people paying for type ratings without a job offer or companies like BAC Express and Streamline who are obviously using desperate wannabes to improve their bottom line.

I think people pay for type ratings in the hope that it will rocket them onto the 'bottom rung of the ladder'. However, what they don't realise is that they are effectively 'removing' that bottom rung for people coming behind them. What's next? Pay for a type rating then work for a year for free? There goes the second rung of the ladder!

[martinbakerfanclub]

As usual from AMEX, sound advice that's to the point; and as it's from a man who can actually claim involvement in this particular loop ( and not just a speculator or spectator) , it's to be hoped some of the wanabee's will listen to it.

I know how desperate some are out their for that first job, i know its soul destroying looking at the loan statements and thinking " what the hell have i done?", but if you still have access to funds, please, do as the man says, spend them on currency.

Anyone else out their remember the late 80's when things were almost as bad as they are at the moment ?...remember the hot conversation topic around the bar's we flyer's and wannabee's frequented....??

You guessed it....type ratings, and their mythical ability to open doors.

Didn't work then for anyone i heard of......doubt it'll work now.

Unless, of course, you really are champing at the bit to go work in sunny africa, and knowing that continent "just maybe"....although i'm sure thats not quite what any of you envisioned when you started that ab-initio course all that time ago. I'm bloody sure it's definately NOT what you promised your significant other.

Spend your money wisely guys, please; or alternatively, why not just say you'll work for free, or at least a handfull of rice at the end of the month.....and yes, that was sarcasm.

[Crosswind Limits]

AMEX speaks the truth and obviously from a position of considerable experience in general aviation. I had seriously considered doing the rating myself but decided against it exactly for the reasons stated by AMEX.

Finally picked up my weekly copy of Flight International today (yes late I know) and noticed at the back was an advert placed by an obviously desperate low hour pilot, openly offering to pay for a type rating in exchange for a job. Whilst I have the utmost sympathy for this individual, being in similar position myself, I can't help but feel what kind of impression he must be giving to everyone seeing his ad, including airline recruitment staff.

I'll be shortly returning to my old profession of soliciting :eek: and saving up for an FIC in due course. Still plan to retire at 60 or thereabouts and go live in sunnier climes! Gotto have something to aim for in life!

Chin up everyone!:cool:

[Kefuddle_UK]

How does buying your own type rating erode your subsequent terms and conditions? I would have thought if they paid for it then, contractually, they prolly got you by the short and curlies.

[Crosswind Limits]

Kefuddle_UK,

I think you have completely mis-read Grivation's post. He is referring to industry wide terms and conditions which would be eroded if significant numbers of junior pilots offered to pay for their type ratings in exchange for flying employment. A type rating should be funded by the employer airline and is thus a legitimate business expense for them.

[AMEX]

AMEX speaks the truth and obviously from a position of considerable experience in general aviation.

Well not that considerable i can assure you. Makes me sound older than I am and with a lot more experience than I have.

Just my thoughts that's all.


Mind you Martin and Xwind, I was thinking of raisng a bit of money for the "Endangered Amex species", since you sound quite enthusiastic, feel free to send me your cheques.
The money will go towards the following projects:

-Planning to build a shelter (6 beds house in Surrey)
-Find a location following the Amex's loss of winter habitat (Found a plot in the Caribbean)
-Three Vehicle Red (TVR for short;))

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Just to add my bit to the paying for a type rating course for what it's worth.
My girlfriend finished a full time course in July with 200 hrs and is starting a self funded 737-300 rating in two weeks. We both wrote to a 737-300 operator after an advert in FI for type rated pilots with 500 hours commercial experience of EFIS.
The handbrake outlined her plans to them, and i detailed my experience. So theres me with 3000 hours, 1500+ on an EFIS multi crew turbine aircraft (not 737 rated), and her with 200 hours and starting a type rating. Now who got the positive reply? Answers on a postcard please.

[Kefuddle_UK]

Not that I am an argumentative sod but...

Terms and conditions are those things that you agree to when taking on a job. I understand that you are trying to generalise the issue but recruitment policies will vary between organisations. I say that employers should have a choice:

a) Fully or part fund the type rating and the employee is bonded for a minimum period but can buy him/her self out (short, curlies and grasped spring to mind)

b) Let the employee pay for it and the employee is free to fly the coup whenever a better offer comes along.

Methinks it is utterly unreasonable to expect employers to pay for type ratings without a some guarentee of a minimum term of service. But then the situation is horses for courses. Small fragile regional operators will depending on self financing. Large highly profitable airlines will seek to attract the best and be willing to pay for it. In a buyers market they have first shout unfortunatelty.

Anyway, the money has to come from somewhere. Either each pays for their own or all salries in an organisation are affected by the increasing costs.

Just a point of view.

[martinbakerfanclub]

Amex old son, i can definately recommend the Tuscan ;)

Faster down the runway than some jet hardware i can think of, and even the other half loves the sound of the beast!

[AMEX]

Always thought the Cerbera was the Ultimate looking,sounding machine but martinbakerfanclub, I guess I could easily be convinced otherwise;) A weekend borrowing a "Mate's" Tuscan would probably help, isn't it right Martinbfc ?!? :D :D :D

[Kefuddle_UK]

Impressive_Wingspan,

It does seem strange. I guess they feel that 200 hrs is enough for the type of F/O position they have vacant with the added savings of a junior F/O salary and £25k on a TR.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Spend the money on the CTC scheme would be my advice.

WWW

[tailscrape]

WWW,

Spot on advice.

If the rumours are true, a large UK charter airline that has GREEN TAILS, but will be going blue soon will only seek low hours guys for the foreseeable future.

And it is my bet that they will use CTC for those guys.

Only a rumour, but one that does have a history.

[prob30]

I am totally with you on this one buddy. I brought this up a week or so ago and got called all sorts from someone who just didnt understand to a prostitute...well ho hum...we live in a competitive world and the longer people have the heads up aft the better, cos it makes it easier for folks like me and you...you are enitrely correct about bonding...

YOU pay for the type rating via bonding in any case, so why not pay for it yourself and get out when you want???

See you in hell!

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Kefuddle_UK

That was my first thought also, and with this topic being hot in our house at the moment I have been researching this for some months. Out of interest I asked my girly to call the operator to try and find out if there was any order in which they consider applicants, the response being

1) High hour 737-300 rated.
2) Any person with Jet time.
3) Any 737 rated regardless of experience.

The response is not isolated to one operator either, this very morning she has had another letter drop through the letterbox from a 737 operator saying she is under consideration.

Now my employer paid for my type rating and that put me on the bottom rung of the ladder. I am ready to take a step up and I find that I can be leap frogged by a candidate with 200 hours and a 733 rating. I’m not resentful of this whatsoever, I think it shows a considerable amount of commitment to take a rating like this on, which can only be looked upon as favourable by an employer.
Surely the logical thinkers who recruit us will think if a person has spent £14 K and eight weeks hard work on a 737-300 type rating, with no guarantees whatsoever shows the same dedication on joining their company, will they be a training risk?

Please do not confuse me with someone who is trying to persuade all low houred pilots to start going out buying 737 ratings because I am not, nothing could be further from the truth. Nor am I trying to justify the expenditure my girlfriend is about to undertake because she has wealthy parents who couldn’t care less. Just going back to the first thread though, a PC12 or C208 type rating is going to cost you 8K ish. If you take into account the cost of the rating and then two years flying that type to get the monies spent back, putting yourself out of the running for potentially a higher paid job, are you actually going to gain? Then once you have the hours you will be overlooked by someone who has low hours but a relevant rating.

Just on a final note please do NOT reply asking how she is doing a 737-300 type rating course for £14K (well it’s actually £14,200), but it CAN be done for this, it just takes a little bit of initiative, is not complicated NOR illegal.

[AK747]

Prob30
That’s exactly my point.
The chief pilot I spoke to said: Listen we are a small airline trying to keep costs down and if you think you could get the type… we probably could write something up for you to take to the bank manager… they don’t want to risk committing to a whole training course with all the money that’s involved if that means that they have to cut costs some how else where. Secondly they know that if I find something bigger and shinier, I’m gone so they maybe don’t want to get involved with the whole bond situation. My 2 cents.

Obviously I would never go out there and let’s say buy a 737 type and hope that when I apply to the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet that I will get a job. If they promised a job and I had it on paper than yes. Like you say Prob30 you’re bonded anyway.
If I was really rich maybe… just as a shot in the dark. I know I’m going to get hung for this line….

Thanks for the replies…. Lets please have open discussion on this matter, Coz a lot of wannabes are getting desperate and about to get them self’s into a lot of debt :eek: Incl Myself :(

More replies Needed.
Thanks again.
AK

[tonyblair]

If it is right and proper for an employer to sponsor your type rating, why does it stop there? Why is it acceptable for an employer to expect you to fund your own MCC? Or licence training? Surely, following the logic of the original argument, any employer which does not offer 100% sponsorship is out of order, and any pilot who accepts employment after self-funding their own training is eroding the terms and conditions of everyone else? :rolleyes:

[tonyblair]

Other than Ryanair, I don't know any 737 operators who don't use the CTC ATP scheme; some even state a policy of not taking low hours candidates who do not come via CTC. So having got this brand new self-financed type rating and no hours on type, just who is going to give you a job?

Surely WWW is right; £6K on the CTC scheme (I think you get £2K back if you are successful), a sponsored type rating, 6 months line experience and a job at the end of it.

Unless, of course, you have failed the CTC selection. If that is the case, I'd have thought it would make even less sense speculating the cost of the type rating.

[tailscrape]

I think that TonyBlair is right here,

If you have not passed the CTC scheme selection, it is possibly a big risk paying for a type rating.

At the end of the day, it is down to any individual concerned, however most airlines want a reasonable amount of experience on type.

What is a reasonable amount? Possibly about 400 or 500 hours I would guess..

Still, it is a cut throat game and if an individual thinks a type rating will be an advantage in the job hunt, then that is up to them to decide.

If you have never applied to CTC, it will probably be worth a shot though, there is nothing to fear by applying.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Buying type ratings is such a game for *Jim Carey voice* "LOOO - HOOO-OOOSSERSS!!* :rolleyes:

Why, you ask? Lets look at the two scenarios that your average type rating buyer is considering.

Option 1) is to go and buy a half decent type rating, 737 seems to be the most popular at the moment. Et voila, you have now just guaranteed that no turboprop operator will touch your CV with a 40 foot pole, because they know you'll be off like a rat up a drainpipe as soon as something better comes around. So, in other words, your entire set of otions now consists of sending CVs to Ryanair. Yes I know, no doubt you'll be sending CVs to Easy and Astraeus and all the other 737 operators in the country as well, but since they pay for their pilots ratings anyway it seems to kind of defeat the purpose of the exercise. As Hamrah and god knows how many other ops managers and chief pilots point out endlessly, a jet type rating without experience is about as useless as a condom machine in the vatican.


Option 2, is to go buy a type rating on some obsolete battered old turboprop for one of the freight crowds (we all know who they are), and then stand in line. Well can I just enquire, what on earth makes you think there are going to be any vacancies in the freight company in question once you've got the rating? There sure aren't any jobs elsewhere in the industry, so why would there be some at a couple of sh!tty night freight companies? Think about it logically, sod all of their pilots can have moved on since 9/11 because there's no jet jobs to be had. They're not expanding, so where is this miraculous F/O job going to appear from? Hmmm. Could it be by any chance at the expense of some bloke who bought his rating 6 months ago who is about to be thrown out on his ear, to make way for the next wave of type-rating-buyers? Guess what guys, those people make just about as much money from selling type ratings to wannabes as they do from flying freight ;) What is the going rate now, 8 or 9 thousand quid for a S330 rating??!! :eek: :eek: Easy money for someone!

Seriously, if you have that kind of money to throw about to try and get ahead in the job stakes, then do yourself a favour, go to Florida or SA or somewhere, and buy yourself 100 hours in a light twin, maybe a Navajo rating as well, and then get back to the UK and target the piston twin operators. There's a damn sight more of them for a start, you're more likely to get a secure job at the end of it with no surprises, and a year or so of hard core single-pilot multi IFR will not only look good in the logbook but it will give you a lot better chance when you have to hand fly that big nasty sim check with that airline.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have reason to believe the CTC scheme is going to become more popular in the future.

Its a bit frightening, ATPL + MCC + Type Rating/CTC and suddenly you are talking real money!

WWW

[Kefuddle_UK]

Buying type ratings is such a game for *Jim Carey voice* "LOOO - HOOO-OOOSSERSS!!*

*Forrest Gump voice* "Why tharts thar nicest thang that enybody ayver sayed to may"

They're not expanding, so where is this miraculous F/O job going to appear from? Hmmm. Could it be by any chance at the expense of some bloke who bought his rating 6 months ago who is about to be thrown out on his ear, to make way for the next wave of type-rating-buyers? Guess what guys, those people make just about as much money from selling type ratings to wannabes as they do from flying freight
There is a word for a similar kind of sharp practice in the IT industry. It is called "stiffing". I'm not altogether sure if you were joking about that are trying to relay some kind of suspected practice. If operators are treating employment 'prospects' like that then one of the unions/DTi should be informed - I would have thought.

Regarding the twin advice. Yes I have been told that too. But if you look at the other TR related post. One guy with thousands of hours on Turbo Props was turned down in favour of someone with 200hrs and a 737 type rating.

Obvisouly you don't get through the fATPL process by being stupid so all of us should have there wherewithal to minimise risk and maximise potential at every opportunity.

As for me being an oldie wannabe I will be looking at the regionals. No fancy Jet job ideas here...yet. So I will almost certainly have to cough up for a TR. Not that I want to but I really cannot expect anything else, I also would like to be in a negotiating position when I have enough hours to warrant a reasonable level of experience.

Thanks for your frank views,
Kef.

[tonyblair]

WWW I'm a bit confused by your second sentance. I thought the idea of the CTC scheme was that you pay for the AQC which includes MCC, then your type rating is sponsored by the airline.

If you have reason to beleive that the CTC scheme will become more popular (I guess you beleive more airlines will use it?), why would that increase the money we have to fork out? I'd have thought it would get rid of the self-funded type rating business.

Now all I have to do is find someone to sponsor my licence training......

[prob30]

I think Kef said something about a conditional letter of employment...I would chance it myself....

[Grivation]

Well said Luke.

It continues to amaze me! - the number of selfish, short-sighted individuals willing to give away conditions that YOU did not earn. For many years the people who came before you in this industry worked bloody hard to ensure a decent pay-packet and standard of living was had by airline pilots. Why do you think this job is so enviable after all?

In the last few years the number of wannabes 'desperate for a job' and willing to forego these conditions increases at an alarming rate. Buying unsolicited type ratings is just one example - but it is the one that stands out in my mind!!

[JJflyer]

Got a type and was told that I need time in type. Found an job without time in type. Got another job with 1000 hours of jet and was offered a job without the type.

So this seems to work both ways. I still have a type on my licence that I have not been able to use, hopefully one day.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

I agree that the CTC scheme is probably going to become more popular and is an excellent scheme, but don't you end up in a holding pool on completion?
Just to put a figure on what WWW said above, approved course ATPL + 737-300 type rating = 75K! That is a scary amount of beer tokens

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well yes, I meant either paying your own type rating or going the CTC route is a whole lot more money than the theoretical £35,000 ATPL modular course.

How the flip you go about paying off £75,000 of debt and at the same time buy your first property all on circa £30,000 I just do not know. I don't think you CAN in the South East.

Certainly takes the shine off the early years of your career I am sure - which is a real shame.

WWW

[sally at pprune]

£35K is certainly theoretical. By the time I'd budgeted for accommodation, living expenses, travel, travel insurance, life and health insurance to cover the loans, exam fees, flight test fees, landing fees, a little contingency pot to cover the extras if I don't sail through everything first time (not that I'll need that of course) and a few quid for a bottle of bubbly when I get to the other end, I estimate I'll need quite a lot more than £35K.

Many of the people I've spoken to have spent between £55 and £60K when they account for everything. When they start talking about loss of earnings on top it’s a whole lot more than that. People who have gone integrated have spent a bit more. If it's BAe, not a heap more (the 3 I know well recon on £65,000 to £70,000), if it is WMU or Oxford, quite a lot more (another £5K at least).

Although it seems a long way off at the moment, I have to say that the CTC scheme at £6,000 with a £2,000 refund if you pass sounds like a bargain. If it includes MCC, presumably you don't need to do that first?


If the alternative is paying over £20K for your own type rating I don't see how the two can be compared.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Weasley, is that a veiled reference to something that EZY are about to spring on us? i.e. plans are afoot to take a bunch more CTC cadets and a bunch less high hour direct entry FO's by any chance?

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Sally at PPrune
A boeing 737-300 type rating can be done for £14,200. Like i said earlier not illegal and training you get no different.

[Flypuppy]

A reputable source tells me that JMC and EasyJet have approached GECAT with setting up a similar scheme to that of Ryanair.

Welcome to the world of paying out 80k for a job that pays 30k.

Sally at PPRuNe's figures are about right, certainly it is in the region of what I have paid so far (and plan to spend on an IR & MCC).

Just how stupid are we? :rolleyes:

[Grivation]

What is CTC after all? Nothing more than a wannabe funded recruitment agency. Sure you get a type rating paid for by the company (if you get through) but then very little in wages for the first year and you have to pay CTC for an over priced MCC in the meantime. Bollocks to CTC!

I think the only people who consider CTC are those who are afraid to compete with the rest on the open hiring market.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Grivation
I don't think that people who either attend CTC or pay for their own type rating are necessarily afraid to compete on the open hiring market. What they are doing is being pro active, showing dedication and making themselves more marketable whilst retaining a certain amount of flying currency.

If you are against CTC, and paying for your own type rating, are you suggesting that all wannabes let their IR's lapse and not do any flying until they get a job?
A young chappie i was talking to a couple of weeks ago had done some single engine flying, a few hours on a seneca then test and run up nearly a £2K bill. I know 6K is alot of cash for CTC but it puts you in the running for a good right hand seat job which sounds good to me.