Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?

[Localiser Green]

It depends:-

What aircraft type are you doing it on?
Do you have any line training as part of the rating?
How much is it costing?
Has anyone said they will give you a job when you're done?

Are you seriously wasting your time and money? If you're "going to be doing" it anyway, then let's hope not!

Good luck.

[A320rider]

good luck,
what do you do after,
pay a company to work?

[scroggs]

And here we go again...

It's a great shame that 'search' isn't working right now.

Scroggs

[wbryce]

good luck,
what do you do after,
pay a company to work?


shhhhh, dont be giving them ideas!! :E

[markflyer6580]

Don't do it!Get a turboprop job instead for 2-3 years, go to a jet operator who does not require gullible pilots,et voila-on jets without £25000 dent in wallet:ok:

A320 Rider Didn't you do a type rating post oxford and not get anywhere from it?:p

[hazehoe]

I would hope that anybody posting on this subject doesn't preach one thing and do another !!!

Enough has been said on this subject in the last few weeks alone, maybe best to ignore these posts, i opt not to repeat my feelings on this subject because i know somebody who spends a lot of time with good looking girls in red uniforms is watching;)

[AIRWAY]

Originally Posted by A320rider,
pay a company to work?

Funny, i had a friend coming over yesterday who stated he would work for free during his initial stages of his career, i was like :eek: :mad: :* needless not say i gave him an ear bashing :hmm:

[Mr Wonka]

No No No No No

[Jannik23]

OK

Im considering it too and got this offer

737 CL + NG 22.000 Euros including basecheck and 100 hrs linetraining with a well know airline in Europe all JAA of course.

What do you think ??


Jannik

[lgt]

Is it with FSB you Tye Rating?

[Jannik23]

Is is indeed :ok:

[P.Pilcher]

If you want to drive one of Mr Branson's swanky new Pendolino trains, he will shell out the entire training cost for you and will also pay you a considerable sum of money to drive it. Why therefore should you pay yourself to learn to fly the aeronautical equivalent, having already expensively obtained the basic qualification, in the hope that somebody will then invite you (and hopefully pay you) to fly it for them.

Occasionally, you read about pilots in your position who gambled £25000 away and won - i.e. they were offered a job on the basis of their new type rating. They were very lucky. What you never hear about is the many people who have gambled similarly and lost. They are so much in debt that they can't even afford a computer to post on the internet!

Because people will do this, employers will take advantage of it - their job is to make as much money for themselves and their shareholders after all. Take the advice offered - get a gas turbine job where training will be offered, hopefully with fair bonding conditions (I don't think Mr Branson will bond you for training to drive his Pendolinos) and then move on at the appropriate time when your experience will make you attractive to a jet operator even without the rating.

P.P.

[Özcan]

if you got a jobguarantee then yes, if not no

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

Strange how so many people responded to this post, similar posts have not been entertained recently, perhaps it had something to do with the name of the person posting it ;).

Agree with Scroggs, don't be lazy, use the search function.

[apruneuk]

How's this for irony. I knew a flying instructor who had about 1500 hours and had paid for a 737 type rating. He had returned to work as a flying instructor as he wasn't having much joy with his job-hunting. After about a year he finally got offered a job flying a bizjet and guess what? He had to pay for his type rating! Sods Law I suppose.

[sam34]

noooo!!!

the companies, like that pilots pay for a type rating! they are happy!
But we pay for ATPL, CPL, IR and MCC...is it not enought ??

pay for TR = :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[B200Drvr]

Markflyer has the right answer, do a turboprop, get some experience and let the airline pay for your rating. As has been said many times on here before, a type rating does not a vacancy make. It will however put you in some nice debt. NO DONT DOIT:{

[scroggs]

Agree with Scroggs, don't be lazy, use the search function.

My point was that the search function is not currently active (the database, I believe, is not yet adapted to interface with the new site software), and thus, for now, we have to suffer the repeat of a debate which was so vehemently engaged in only a week or two ago.

One of the problems with this subject is that it generates little advice and a great deal of polemics. The same people reiterate their entrenched political positions with out any significant exchange of viewpoints. It always reminds me of the Monty Python argument sketch:
"M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

(short pause)

A: No it isn't

etc

It's fun, but ultimately a waste of time.

Scroggs

for those who are too young to remember Python, or who'd like a reminder of the full sketch, see here. (http://www.mindspring.com/~mfpatton/sketch.htm)

[reality check]

OK Boys & Girls,

I don't normally get involved in this hot air and Scroggs is correct in all he has said, however, I shall state my informed opinion which does result in getting a good jet job.

Nobody goes into this game to fly a turbo prop or other such junk! and those jobs aint easy to come by anyway. As for being an instructor, forget it unless you want to live in a bed sit eating beaked beans on toast for the next 3 years.

My advice is to by-pass the whole lot, including all the airline HR dept selection `lottery` crap. Budget about 40,000 pounds. It might not cost you that much but be ready to pay for type rating, base check, and line training. 100hrs is the minimum, but 300 plus is better. Within 6-8 months you will be established in the job you set out for, have a decent pay packet and able to sleep at night.

I can assure you that you will not be looked down upon within the industry for doing this, and even if you were, who cares?

You must do whatever is required to get unfrozen with jet hrs. Any other route is a waste of time, effort and earning potential.

[cavokkid]

Well said Reality Check

Buying type ratings is not new in our industry, and will continue to increasingly be the norm. People who preach otherwise are just too proud to admit they've run out of loot, or they would be doing it themselves.

This is a unique industry, and one that cannot be possibly be compared to any other - so if you think you are better off driving a train because your training is paid for, go ahead, and stop squawking.

And to those who say 'don't do it unless you are guaranteed a job' are clearly not all the ticket. Who can guarantee anything? Or even believe them even if they did?

The truth is SexyChic that if you've got the money - you are doing the right thing. You know they say 'the harder you practise, the luckier you'll get'. In aviation i'm afraid it is 'the more you spend, the luckier you'll get'.

Good luck next week scroggs.

[stir crazy]

Agreed

By-pass the now obsurd selection process for `no jet time wanabees` divised by non flying `power-less` HR office workers and deal directly with the real decision makers - the airline accountants.

I did 15 months ago and now am 1100 hours ahead of my mate who is went the instructor route who is now totally broke, demoralised and curently looking out of the aero club window waiting for the wind to drop!

[scroggs]

Why do I get the impression that there are a lot of under-employed - and possibly related - pilots out there today with nothing better to do than perpetuate a wind-up?

Waiting for the bites...

Scroggs

[cavokkid]

Do you include yourself in that list my friend?

[stir crazy]

I am just speechless my modest posting has remained on this `quite excellent` and informative web site for more than 10 minuites.

I am however serious in what i am saying. 2 years of applications got me nowhere, - rightly or wrongly -, but as soon as i got my wallet out (or more accuratly my brothers wallet) my feet did not touch the ground. Now I paid for my qualification i cant get out of flying this jet. My airline wont even give me time off for a holiday!!

Crazy business.

Thanks for your wisdom and look forward to meting you soon Mr. Scroggs.

[reality check]

Scroggs, no wind-up, I mean it.

I've written books on this industry.........cheque books!

Another 40 grand? the cost of a nice car! so what?

If you got it then spend it and get on!

[A320rider]

so what???

...type rating and 30'000 euro to fly 200 hours jet.
another 60'000 euro after your CPL to find yourself unemployed, duh?

type rating is a minimum, consider 2-3 type rating and at least 500h jet to apply.

0 hour, no license, this is what you really need to go to BA.

[ATP_Al]

Nobody goes into this game to fly a turbo prop or other such junk!

You sure about that? Not everyone gets into this business to fly jets. And not everyone who does is so pathetically desparate to do it that they'd fork out another £40k with no guarantees and forego the satisfaction of actually earning their dream job.

Some people eh? :mad:

[dboy]

It is not about "should i pay or not". I'm prepared to pay 30.000eur if the company can give me a contract. But paying before you have a job offer sounds very risky to me.

best regards

[The Yank]

EVERYBODY that pays for a TR is reducing the T&C's of the aviation Industry, including future earning potential. Instructing might be a road to the poor house (I should know) but you are hurting yourself (and me) in the long run…

Don’t get me wrong I have many friends that have paid for there type, and I do not look down on anyone who does. I know how demoralizing it is to be rejected year after year but at the end of the day you are playing right into the bean counters hands.

Just my 2 cents

[B200Drvr]

RealityCheck,
Your comment regarding "Turbo props and other such junk" is what makes some of you guys such a joke!! Do you really think every pilot in the world wants to be an airline pilot. Get over your airline ego!!!

[markflyer6580]

I'll second that B200DRVR I would love to fly turboprops first, prerf till I get a command!

[jondc9]

to type rate or not to type rate, that is the question...whether it is nobler in the pocket book to suffer the slings and arrows (aero's :-) ) of one's fellows...

I was poor and I went the instructor route...eventually made it to 737 captain for a major airline. Am now grounded due to injury getting about half pay.

IF I WAS rich and were to do things from the start all over again:

I would 1.

buy and read: stick and rudder
fly the wing
handling the big jets

get all my pilot certificates in smaller cheaper planes, saving that money for the big stuff. I would get my ATP in a Citation. You get the type too.

Then you can get on one of those fractional ownership net jet things and build some time up. I flew the 737 and didn't think it was that great a plane.

Why not go on and get a type in something that is flown by the airline YOU want to work for.

rich buy type rating(s) realistic...do it the hard way like me. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? I think turboprops stink! (having flown: handley page MK1 Jetstream, MU2, Metroliner )


jon

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

reality check,

If you are serious what a load of rubbish! I cannot believe how narrow minded you are, how the hell to you know what people want to achieve with their flying careers? I know plenty of people of have taken the traditional route, and obtained jobs within the airline industry and have not spent a penny on a type rating. Grow up.

Sorry Scroggs, was aware the search function was not working.

[High Wing Drifter]

It is difficult to disagree with the notion that if you have the money that you should use it to your advantage. How you use it is another matter. On the face of it buying a type rating should give you a leg up. Isn't a speculative (as that is what it amounts to) type rating without multi-crew hours a potential waste of time and money?

If you do a type rating isn't there a risk that you are more unemployable, wouldn't an airline prefer you to do a type rating at their preferred establishment(s)? As a parcially zero houred bod, wouldn't you still remain an totally unknown qualtity?

As a practically zero houred fATPL, what if you do a type rating and it then takes six-nine months to find a job, pass the interview, pass the sim check and get out of the hold pool? Your type rating requires a renewal before 3 months is up. LASORS is a little ambiguous on the situation if you don't do 10 route sectors or 1 route sector with an examiner and the proficiency check within the first 3 months. Do the type rating courses provide a 1 route sector and proficiency check service if you don't yet have an employer to other take care of these matters?

I suppose you have shown you can pass, but it doesn't seem like rocket science so that aspect is potentially nugetory.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Reality check - perhaps tis your attitude that precludes you from getting a position without buying your way into it. On a level playing field I'd venture to suggest you'd be well down the bottom of the pile with an attitude like the one you're displaying here! There's nought wrong with turboprops or their operators. Some of the best pairs of hands around are trolling around in the crappy weather.

Scroggs - I see where you're coming from....... all seem to have a very few number of postings eh? Hehe!

[scroggs]

I assume that the vast majority of wannabes wish to fly in order to earn a living. It seems perverse to me to spend so much on your training that the repayments on the inevitable loans eat up most of what you will eventually earn. Add to that the fact that the further up the ladder you pay to fly, the further down the line it will be before you receive a salary - and, because your 'employer' sees people willing to pay to fly, he will feel that he can pay fewer people less money, so your earning capacity is reduced in the long term. Surely this is self-defeating?

I do not have a problem with the training industry offering type-ratings. There are many reasons why people and organisations wish to contract others to provide that kind of training. Obtaining qualifications speculatively is not immoral - if it were, what future would there be for Adult Education Colleges, or The Open University? What I do have a problem with is the creeping increase in the number of hours that people are prepared to pay for. Where does it end? The logical conclusion is that BA 747 pilots will be people who earn their living elsewhere and pay BA for the privilege of flying. Ridiculous? Maybe - but the idea that FOs on some lo-cost airlines would be effectively unpaid for the first 18 months of their career would have been laughable only a few years ago. And this is at a time when jobs are there a-plenty!

While I have little truck with those who spend their time ranting incoherently about 'scabs' and using other emotive or profane terms for those who purchase type ratings with line training, I am distinctly uncomfortable about the way this is going. I suspect that current employment legislation is inadequate to protect us from the ramifications of this trend, and that it will take strong representation to Government by pilots' unions to prevent it spreading further.

However, in the meantime I am aware that buying SSTRs plus line training is legal and, for some, may be worthwhile. If you can afford to go this route, be careful you go with reputable organisations. That's about the limit of the advice I will offer; after all, you can obviously afford to do the research yourself - or pay someone to do it for you!

Scroggs

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Indeed - and Its a safe bet that these will be amongst the primary whingers come 5 years time when their own terms and conditions are being erroded! It's already happening in FR..... :rolleyes:

[markflyer6580]

I assume that the vast majority of wannabes wish to fly in order to earn a living.

If that is the case they should try something else where you can earn a lot more and work better hours:*
In this profession,it should be for the love of flying,the earnings are of no concern to me,as long as I can pay my bills,say £12-15k a year should suffice,all I want to do is go flying every day and not pay for it or have to work a part time job at the same time.
As Scroggs has said paying off the debt is the problem hence the requirement for higher pay,unfortunately f/o pay will not be enough to pay most peoples debts let alone an extra £25k from a type rating.
Only those with more money than sense can afford to do the rating and work for free,I reckon that will be approx 1-5% of all wannabes.
I think we all know that everyone would do it if they where in that position,but most of us are skint!:E
If you are just in it for the money,bugger off and leave the flying for the people who want to fly:mad:

[scroggs]

Oh, FFS, this is a profession not a vocation! If you wish to work for a pittance, go and join a charity. If you wish to fly for love, stay with your flying club. One of the reasons I left the RAF was to join an organisation that would recognise my professional abilities and pay me a salary that reflected that recognition. I do not do it for love. I do enjoy flying, but it is the way I pay for my house, car, food, entertainment, children etc. I, and the vast majority of my colleagues, believe we are worth at least what we are currently paid, and we can justify considerably more.

Remember, you fly because your employer needs you to generate his profit. The less he pays you, the more profit he makes on your back. He does not employ you because you love flying.

Scroggs

[Wing Commander Fowler]

was looking for a posting placed by FFS then - how slow am I??? :}

[dlav]

WCF - Me too!

I think this thread has been a troll from start to finish. SexyChic is nowhere to be seen

[scroggs]

Oh dear. Must we go down this route? I hate deleting stuff, but I'm quite happy to....

This thread may have started as a wind-up (or as the preparation for a wind-up later in the thread), but hopefully the debate is useful. If we get more of this crap, I'll just lock it.

Scroggs

[reality check]

It seems a few people don't like getting a reality check.

Fly whatever you want to, but you know full well you will always be looking at the bigger boys planes.

I have no idea what the 'traditianal route' is meant to be. I think it is an excuse for not getting the job you really wanted. I just do not believe that anyone who goes to a decent school focused on airline jet transport would then want to take several steps backwards to fly anything other than a jet. But if that is really your desire then good luck to you, I just hope you do it early enough in life to get it out of your system.

There is nothing wrong with my view point, it has served me and others well. I currently work with two guys who are 21yrs old, self funded the whole lot (prob with some help I grant you) but the point is they have gone straight in at airline entry on brand new NGs, stress free. They will get command by the age of 25 and be made for life, QED.

I'm sorry to those who don't agree with my stance, but unlike some others it comes from within the industry most of you want to get in.

[Number Cruncher]

Reality Check? That's just what a lot of people who come on these forums need.

I happen to agree with what he says. OK not everybody has this route open to them, but if you can afford it, do it. Are you lot really saying that you would pass up the offer of joining somebody like Ryanair? Well, i hear you're in the minority as apparently they have 1000's on the waiting list. Don't know whether that is true or not mind you. OK you might have to wait months for line training. Big deal. Find another job in the mean time.

[markflyer6580]

Scroggs
You have me mixed up! I will happily spend a 6 figure Virgin atlantic salary when I get there since my other passion is motorsport-possibly the only hobby to be more expensive than flying.
My point was that unless you are minted the starting salaries are not going to pay for your type rating,however trying to go straight to jets for the money seems daft,when you could be building time and experience for less money when you start out elsewhere (the time at which you should still enjoy your job).
You are right that after say 10 years a long haul jet captain should be paid a lot but as you know it doesn't come overnight does it?

However I couldn't agree more with your statement about forces pay for pilots,a friend of mine flys fast jets and earnt less last year than I did fitting kitchens!!!:ok:

[Mr Blue Eyes]

The interesting thing here is that there is no traditional/standard route to getting that first job anymore. Unlike many other countries our recruitment process is a shambles. So because we have many routes, there are going to be many differences of opinion. I think that if we all had the money we would all pay our way through TR & line training if it meant getting a job (remember the bed sit alternative) But most of us cannot afford to get an Instructors Rating let alone a Type Rating or hours. What ever route gets you the job is the best route.

From my reseach of airlines, every Chief pilot looks for different things and finding that out is like getting blood out of a stone. So a TR may suit ABC air but not someone else etc etc.

What the industry needs is a structured approach to recruitment similar to others. Therefore there is one view and we all sing from the same hymn sheet. (but yes I know this is Britain and we cannot organise a **** up in a brewery!). We used to be Great Britain!

[High Wing Drifter]

I disagree. Long may the many options continue.

[Craggenmore]

All this thread has highlighted is just how money orientated people are, seemingly with the sole desire for celebrity style 'kiss and tell', quick-fix financial reward. What happened to personal job satisfaction?

Whoopee, I rushed and paid for my TR and now I'm stuck in an airline where I don't want to be with £25,000 more of debt. So, well done You! You must be very proud. :ok: You aint got anywhere else to go now. Tough......:rolleyes:

stir crazy wrote, "I paid for my TR and am now 1100 hours ahead of my mate who went down the instructional route".

My question is, "ahead of what exactly"......the race to fill up your log book with a further £25,000 of debt hanging over you? Again, Well done! :ok: I'd rather have no mortgauge thanks.

stir crazy also wrote, "looking out of the aero club window waiting for the wind to drop".....Well pal, you're looking out the window while another daily £15 of accrued interest from your TR loan eats into your flight pay.

How awful to know that you could only get in by paying because you could'nt do it any other way :{

As Wing Commander Fowler says Indeed - and Its a safe bet that these will be amongst the primary whingers come 5 years time when their own terms and conditions are being erroded!

[Olof]

Quite interesting debate after all... I'm stunned though how narrow minded some people's posts are... Black and white thinking is just a pity... There are so many different factors to take into consideration. How could I ever take an advice from anybody? Should I trust the bitter guy who's got a type but no job? Should I trust the money spender who says that a fat wallet is the solution to everything? should I trust the guy in the left seat who actually appears to be slightly underpaid (!) ...? Point being, we're not in the same boat here. We all come from different backgrounds with different goals and ambitions.

Being fresh out of the box with fATPL and ~250h TT I find my self confused and somewhat worried with what the future holds for me. Whats the next step? I will still put my trust in my motiviation and my passion for flying. Being well aware of that this is not a vocation I won't let money blind me when progressing with my career. I'd love to do a couple years as an instructor. I'd also like to fly some turbo prop. So what is my goal? Happiness! Ofcourse that doesn't come from flying solely but a job that I'm satisfied with is a very good start and it is certainly more important than the paycheck... If that job is in the left seat of a wide body or somewhere else is yet to be seen.... After all, how would I know?

[tanjo505]

HAS ANYONE ATTENDED pan am in mineapolis for the a320 type rating ?? i'd appreciate any good or bad comments..

[Clandestino]

I assume that the vast majority of wannabes wish to fly in order to earn a living
Nonononononoooooooooo!!!! I always wanted to fly so I could impress the chicks with "I'm a pilot, ya know" speak. Now that's something worth investing a couple-of-ten-thousands-quids. Becoming a jet captain by the age of 25 is nice but it's your ability to squander away a healthy sum of money is what makes you more attractive to opposite (you can make that same or both, depending on your preference) sex.
Of course, I've never self-sponsored and now I'm flying for living, but it's just a case of bad luck.
Olof, seven years after geting fATPL, I still haven't found better way to find out what would suit me than old fashioned trial and error. That might just be me, but it seems that wandering around and asking questions only brings in more confusion. On the matter of paying for rating, methinks that the most sensible suggestion is don't pay if you don't have your job guaranteed, but then most companies that would give you job guarantee are the ones who prefer bonding so not much help from me here either. Whatever you do, there's no reason not to enjoy it while you're doing it. Heck, while I still have the dream about becoming B777 capt, flying as tprop F/O is loads of fun and if I could make a decent living out of it, I'd do it till retirement.
Many happy ldgs in your career!

[A320rider]

here the deal:

you give me your money...
with your money, I pay myself a type rating , and if I am hired, I will do all I can to get you a step in my company.

I need you bank ref number for the transfer.or you can send me a cheque.
please PM me.

your agent.

(I am joking!!!!in case you didn't see it ;))

[sexychic]

Hi, just wondered if I'll be the only female on the course in Exeter in January? If I am, I might see if I can get on the next one cos my pal's on that one.
Cheers
sc (im also new to this pprune thing!!)
:confused:

[redsnail]

I don't know which company you're about to do a course with. However, things can change very quickly in aviation, I would stay on the course you're booked on. Next month may be too late.

[sjm]

If you want my advise stay booked on the course, a month is a long time in the aviation world, may sound harsh but being on a cousre with your mate is no reason to delay.
If its the 737 course its hard work no time for friends or family come to that i spent nearly two months in total including sim gschool and base training away from partner and daughter

Good luck on the course:O

[thereceiver2004]

sexychic.. 737 or ATR.. ?

[Team Player]

Was just reading something similar, but with a new twist, on another website.

Some people are too easily exploited :ugh:

Edited to remove link to a competitor forum.

Scroggs

[sexychic]

ATR... supposedly. I can't get the money together for this time around - so I'll be on the next course anyway!

sc :ugh:

[james707]

Go to Bond Aviation and do it for alot less money and you will be in sunny Florida instead of freezing your butt off www.bondaviationservices.com

[spanner the cat]

It would be all well and good paying for a type rating on a jet (which I haven't). The reality is that some pilots are having to pay for their type ratings to get Saab 340 jobs! Where does it all stop? If you wish (or are forced) to move types in a company, or get a command, should you have to pay for the new training as well? If you've paid for the original rating it wouldn't take too much of a bean-counting effort to try it on.

Whilst I sympathise with anyone trying to break into this industry I don't have much truck with the buying of type-ratings. It took sometime to get my first job and I've thoroughly enjoyed my previous instructing and turbo-prop flying. I think those buying their way straight onto the big shiny jet are missing some good experience.

Anyway I'm off now t't paper bag in't middle of road. Oh it were 'ard in them days! :rolleyes:

[Tubbs]

What if you want to fly for the love of it and you're interested in a living wage and job satisfaction? There doesn't seem to be as much of this prospective type rating nonsense in the turboprop world. My mate has got himself a jet type to try and get himself a job and six months later still has jack **** from it. Why does spunking 40 grand 'by-pass the whole lot'? How can you bypass the HR department? This has been well and truly flogged to death, but I did feel compelled to respond to the drivel posted above. Was it a wind-up??

Edit: I happily paid for my Saab 340 type rating as the company is paying me the cash back over and above my salary (plus interest). Also, it wasn't prospective - it was part of a firm job offer.

[scroggs]

As the questioner is in the Philippines, and has a FAA CPL, he's unlikely to be needing a JAA TR!

Scroggs

[hughesyd]

if you actually bothered to look at the site, Pan Am training acadamy in Minneapolis are JAA approved for type ratings anyway!, as are RANDHEM Aviation in the states, for loads of different type ratings.

[BillieBob]

I realise that this is somewhat off-topic since the original question had nothing whatever to do with JAA training but, since hughesyd has posted clearly incorrect information it is probably worth clarifying the situation for those who are interested in JAA training.

Had hughesyd bothered to read the PanAm website before firing off his sarcastic response, he would have discovered that PAIFA are not approved to provide JAA initial type rating training. Some PAIFA simulators (e.g. CRJ & J41 at Dulles, RJ and J41 at Minneapolis, B757 at Miami but not the A320) are qualified under JAR-STD1A and some JAA companies (e.g. Maersk, ATD and BA) have user approvals for them. However, PAIFA cannot offer initial type ratings on any of their simulators.

Randhem hold a JAA TRTO approval issued by the Swedish Authority and dry-lease simulators from PAIFA. The two companies have a similar arrangement to AFT and DCA, and look what happened there!

So, the answer to the original question is 'No, nobody who has so far posted has attended PanAm in minneapolis for the A320 type rating'. Indeed, it is unlikely (although not impossible) that you will find anybody on this predominantly JAA-orientated website who has.

[ant1]

Hi BillieBob

So what's the conclusion ?

Can Randhem in the end provide initial TR on A320 and B737 or not?

Thanks

[tanjo505]

i appreciated all your comments guys...thanks..:ok:

[dboy]

Forget paying for your type and do as i do. Writing, writing and writing but no more investing in flying cause nobody will hire you because if have some extra 25 hours on 1 year.

grtz

[dboy]

correction:....because you did last year extra 15-25 hours.

grtz

[nick p]

I'm sure this has been asked before but i'll ask just in case it hasn't, after a year of PFO letters i'm now considering doing a type rating to perhaps stand out a bit more, would it be a wise idea to persue this and if so, is it better to do a type rating on a TP or shiney jet?. I was going to ring the CAA to get a rivised list of TRTO's as i think their website is a little old.

[Mr Wonka]

For what it is worth I think you should hang on in there. I am now,in 2006 just getting my first chance of a tp job, paid for by the company and bonding me for 2 years.

After 6 yes 6 years or koncking on doors and trying everything i could to stay current and chase the jobs here i am at last. So after 1 year and now thinking of just paying out more money, to speed things up, I think it is a little foolish. just keep going and trying, best of luck though it is tough, but who said it was ever easy?

For example see this thread and perhaps it might help


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207188

Mr Wonka

[dboy]

Hey,

I agree with mr wonka. Just save your money!!! There is a chance you even don't find anything with your rating. But you have to keep in mind after 1 year you have to renew this rating. I guess this costs also a lot. I'm also applying for about 11 months without 1 interview. Ok i don't like it, and as a result of that i decided to spend no more money into flying but i keep writing. So hang on and good luck.

dboy

[Charlie Zulu]

I have just found out (in the past couple of hours) that someone who is currently flying an ATR42 and paid for his B737 TR last year (without any line hours) has just been turned down by BMI Baby as he has a type rating with no hours.

They are currently taking people without a type rating though... (I'm a little bit late in qualifying again!).

[sjm]

Strange! i have 2500 hrs sep/light twin and a 737 rating no hours and they took me!

[nick p]

Thanks for all the replys and advice,if i do proceed down that avenue,it probably won't be for a while anyway.

[the lord]

Dear friends!

I´ll like to ask you where I can find companies or schools, where I can make a type rating of B737 or A320.

A part of take a type rating I will like to make hours. Because it is too difficult to work with out hours.So if I have to pay it,I will pay.

An example of the school or compañy, it is like Ryanair. You pay your HT and they offer work to make hours. Something like this I look it.
If it is only a place where they only offer the HT+Hours it is not a problem.

Thank you very much :ok:

[banana head]

PARC aviation in Dublin have banner adverts here on PPRuNe regularly.
For details, try looking on their website,here (http://www.parcaviation.aero/aviation/cs_aviation_training.htm)

:)

Bond Aviation / Astraeus also offer B737 programs with hours I believe,
Have a look Here (http://www.bondaviationsolutions.com/)

And a quick google search came up with this crowd in BRU:
Hubair? (http://www.hubair.net/)

[Busbar]

Try GECAT at London Gatwick. The link is www.gecat.com They offer self sponsored type rating courses and some of the airlines do pick up guys after they finish. Two friends of mine got jobs with First Choice on the A320 after doing the GECAT course.

Hope this helps! :ok:

[Allioth]

Hi guys,

I've just decided to go through the training in Stapleford and then do the Astraeus TR with a 100h. line training...

Now I'm thinking: is it enough to have just 100h. and apply for a job? I'm not talking about Ryanair, since I know all the story about jobs there... I'm talking about ANY other airline here in Europe... I saw a lot of application forms in internet and everybody is asking AT LEAST 500h on type... Do you think it's enough to go there and say:
"Hello, I have 300h total time, and just 100h on B737 type. Can you hire me?"

I'm a bit worried... Do you think there are chances to get hired with such a low amount of hours?

Thanks

[windshear-a-head]

To be honest i think it depends on what the airline your applying for is looking for, if everyone applying for the job has low hours and no experience and you have 100 hours you may be slightly ahead in the queue, however in terms of experience more often than not an airline determines experience as a minimum of 500 hours on type. Its usually insurance reasons and also risk at type rating/line training.

Just beware of putting all your eggs in one basket with regards to the 737.

Good Luck

[Dude~]

I saw a lot of application forms in internet and everybody is asking AT LEAST 500h on type

Don't mean to point out the obvious but if people are asking for 500 hrs on type, then 100 is probably not enough, unless you can make sure beforehand that they might make an exception for you, or you have excellent contacts.

Just think carefully about it.

[hixton]

And when you say you havee 100 hours on type it is going to be plain obvious to the chief pilot that you have bought the hours.

[littco]

Allioth,

On a side note, I'm currently at Stapleford and as yet not met anyone who has done or is going to do the Astraeus 737+line training, the ones that have all passed their IR recently have seemed to do to Parc MCC and then onto Ryan, with I believe good sucess, don't quote me on that but just what I've heard. However, I do believe a couple of guys did the Astraeus course and got taken on by Astraeus afterwards, so goes to show it can work.

Guess it's all horses for courses! Taking of which "beef or chicken" is a good bet in the gold cup today which is quite apt I think!

Enjoy Stapleford, good choice.. Really enjoying it there..

[scroggs]

This (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214136&highlight=Stapleford) thread might give you some info on Stapleford/Astraeus. It might be worth asking on it if anyone has actually done the course, and whether any of them are now employed.

Scroggs

[rotatrim]

£32,000, or so I heard....................eye-watering!

[TenAndie]

I would say your going to be in a much better position than someone that has been to Oxford and got 100 hrs instructing on a C152.

If i had to start and pay for my training again i would without doubt go to Stapleford and get the 100hrs on a 737. There are so many low houred guys out there that you need any advantage you can get !!

[Grampianhills]

To be frankly honest if Stapleford's relationship with Ryanair is that good - go with ryanair, a job is a job and after 2 years you will have close to 2000 hours or more 737.

Let's also remember that you are buying all your flight training and type rating for the same price as what you would at Oxford or Cabair for just an fATPL, far more experienced! I just can't see how you are possibly loosing out with over 100 hours type compared to some 200 hour abnitio.

Don't worry, sit back, because it's patently the best of all possible training choices right now.

Good luck mate!

[Craggenmore]

By buying a jet rating you are stating your preference loud and clear as to what you want to fly. What happens if you can't get a job flying jets at the end? I doubt that you would get a sniff from any turbo-prop operators due to this jet rating.

Who knows what recruitment will be like in 15 months form now. Perhaps airlines won't freely be taking SSTR's like they are now. Perhaps going forward more and more airlines will appoint specefic training organisations (think BMI/MyTravel/First Choice and GEcat) and if you dont come from them, then forget it (easyJet/CTC anyone?)

You never know.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I don't think there are any 737 rated pilots out there struggling to find work.

Your hundred hours doesn't mean much in terms of ability but it does mean that you can be taken on tomorrow, put through a week in the sim and a week of line training flights and be fully operational within a fortnight. Rather than the 2 months it takes to do the whole rating, sims and line training hours.

So what you need is to find 737 operators needing pilots in a hurry.

Several low cost operators of that type seem to be in urgent need of new pilots so as long as you are not some kind of muppet at interview you should be able to sleep easy when writing the cheques this year.

Just cross your fingers that something doesn't go bang with the industry in the meantime.

Good luck,

WWW

[Troy McClure]

Don't be put off too much by the adverts asking for 500 hours minimum. When did you last see an ad in flight from a TP or jet operator asking for people with 1000 hours single-engine piston? Yet they're still getting jobs.

The fact is, if companies are prepared to take a chance on low hours or ex-instructor types, or indeed people with SSTRs, they don't need to spend money on ads; they're getting 100 CVs a day as it is.

[An2]

WWW,

With all due respect for your knowledge of the aviation business, but this is one point where you're wrong.

I finished up my TR on the 737 one year ago, and as soon as I was done, I started contacting various agencies in search of a job.
They all had me know that unless I'm line-trained and pretty much "ready to go" (as you yourself stated; within a fortnight), there's was just about no bl**dy chance. One lady at a specific agency told me she had app's from a little more than one-hundred "type-rated, but no time on type"-guys/girls!!

Now, that was one year ago!
Meanwhile the likes of Bond/Astraeus, Aviatraining, FSB, Sterling, SASFA, Randheim, etc....., have been grinding out new students with fresh TR's.

The only ones I know, that have gotten a job straight after a typerating, are those that had substantial TT, and even some of them ran into problems.
Ooohh, and of course, those that bit the bullit and opted for the "pay-for-training" through Eaglejet or Astraeus.

[A320rider]

all these training sound like scam to me.
all they want is your money, the all make you believe if you have 100-200 or 500 hours, you have a job.and based on what?
many airlines can not hire pilots, simply because they do not have openings.
Nothing to do with your hours.
you have the same chance to get a job with 200h than with 2000 hour on jet.

do not be fooled by these dreamer makers who profit of the situation to fill their pockets with your $!

I knew a captain who was selling this kind of training(pay to work). He said after building 500h on jet, you will get a job.I asked him why he did nt have a job as pilot, ...no answer!!!!

[Grampianhills]

If you studied you stats from flight schools you will see that very few fail to get a job who graduate oxford or cabair (I don't generally big them up). Secondly, if you study your stats with the type rating courses you will conclude that this is with out doutb the best way in for those who haven't gone to oxford or cabair.

Astraeus have a very good reputation for their training and at present are on a boom with graduate employment.

I continuously do not understand why people keep knocking type ratings. I went to the pilot training exhibition conference at Heathrow in November and they had the likes of BA, Atlantic Airlines (Flight Training) saying 'oh don't go modular or do a type rating'. In my opinion, they all have there reasons. 1 A relationship with Oxford Aviation Training that even after a thousand showers their noses would still be terd brown (BA) + ab initios courses and secondly they have there own jobs they can offer student s at the end (AFT). It doesn't help naive prospectors one bit!

sorry if some don't like my opinion.

[scroggs]

What 'stats'? Over what period? Verified by whom?

Scroggs

[Re-Heat]

I continuously do not understand why people keep knocking type ratings. I went to the pilot training exhibition conference at Heathrow in November and they had the likes of BA, Atlantic Airlines (Flight Training) saying 'oh don't go modular or do a type rating'. In my opinion, they all have there reasons. 1 A relationship with Oxford Aviation Training that even after a thousand showers their noses would still be terd brown (BA) + ab initios courses and secondly they have there own jobs they can offer student s at the end (AFT). It doesn't help naive prospectors one bit!

What on earth are you talking about. A - BA don't care where you train as long as you are highly-trained through (ideally) an integrated course, B - BA don't care about ab-initios with type ratings, as you have to do their training regardless once you join, C - BA have taken people from Jerez, CTC, KLM flight training and Cabair as well, and D - BA prefer people not coming from unstructured modular courses as they are proven within BA to be a high training risk, which has nothing to do with OAT whatsoever. Their relationship with Jerez is in fact far stonger as the BAe training school was set up solely to cater for and meet BA's specific requirements.

Don't speak from preconceptions - speak from the basis of FACTS. You don't help naive prospectors one bit.

The reason a type rating is pointless without a job is not that one should denegrate people attempting to make themselves more marketable, but that in large numbers of cases it is unmarketable without far more hours on type of actual experience operating the aircraft.

[Grampianhills]

Fortunately, I do have alot more information than most as I have quite a few connections on the inside of the flight training system. But, I'm sure if you asked nicely you would be able to get a stack of information if you just went to the flight schools and asked.

There is no conspiracy or secret THERE ARE PLENTY OF JOBS IN FLUITION FOR VERY GOOD PILOTS WHO PASS THROUGH THE TOP SCHOOLS at this point in time!

Why does this site try to perpetuate there is a problem which is wrong? The facts are if you go to the wrong school you'll have difficulties, but if you go to the Top ones you are pretty much in AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

[scroggs]

What on earth does 'in fluition' mean? I can't find it in any dictionary, and online research gives only an internet marketing tool. Perhaps you are a salesman for one or more of the schools??!

This site does not 'perpetuate that there is a problem which is wrong'. It can only reflect the experiences of those currently in training and trying to find a job. It may well be that the majority of OAT and FTE graduates find employment quite quickly - in fact, you would expect that to be the case - but there is a problem for the rest in this perception that a type rating (and another £20,000 investment) is now required. Then we get into the 'paying to work' argument, which is only one step further down the line...

Looking through your posts, it would appear that you think the business of borrowing up to £100,000 is not a problem, and that a type rating is a necessary part of the wannabe's programme, and you claim contacts on the inside of the industry - do you wonder that I think you may be on the sales side? When was the last time you borrowed that kind of money unsecured? It's only not a problem if you're the one being given that money with no risk!

Scroggs

[zooloflyer]

There is no conspiracy or secret THERE ARE PLENTY OF JOBS IN FLUITION FOR VERY GOOD PILOTS WHO PASS THROUGH THE TOP SCHOOLS at this point in time!


Dear Mr Grampianhills,

Great for those guys! What is your advice if you come from this pre topschool era?

[Mister Geezer]

I would say your going to be in a much better position than someone that has been to Oxford and got 100 hrs instructing on a C152.

Really????
:confused:

[Machine Man]

Re-Heat: I see your point about BA not liking modular trained pilots as much as integrated trained pilots, but I know of three who recently got jobs with BA. All passed the BA training and are now on line........so it does happen. :)

[jamess115]

Hi
Anybody know if obtaining a type rating for a Medium/Heavy Jet transport category aircraft in the U.S say a Boeing/Airbus Type Rating is any use for flying as a career for a European Airline?
Why i ask this question is that it seems a heck of a lot cheaper to get typed here as opposed to the UK. What's the catch?:confused:

[dxbpilot]

There are alot of people who have put up the cash for a type rating already and are seeking jobs in europe. I guess time on type is very valuable. If you obtain any type rating in the US make sure you have the JAR certification if you want to use it in Europe.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Or do 500 hours over in the US and get your JAA for free. (Just LPC required)

[Re-Heat]

I didn't say it does not happen - doing CTC or plunging through a reputable school in minimum time is far removed from modular at a more gentlemanly pace on a part-time basis. The lack of pressure on a DIY timescale is what they attempt to avoid from candidates.

[jamess115]

Thankyou Gentlemen.

[no sponsor]

That's right Re-Heat. I did my ATPLs part-time, and frequently sipped G&Ts throughout the evening, watched T.V. at weekends while browsing through my study notes. Come to think of it, I even took a flask of coffee and some cheese and biscuits on most of my IR sorties, and especially my IRT.

What a load of rubbish.

[Re-Heat]

No sponsor

To make myself clear, as you appear not to understand "a gentlemanly pace"; if you are to work part/full time and learn to fly part-time, you do not and cannot accumulate sufficient flying knowledge in sufficiently short a time to be able to cope with the rigours of line training - that was BA's experience, be it right or wrong, and that is why they prefer people whom have not taken their time to train up.

Why don't you go out and speak with BA line trainers who have trained such people in the past - they had immense trouble coping with the syllabus, which is why BA does not look at people who have built up hours to achieve fATPL at a gentlemanly pace, and ony those who have done it in a short space of time from established schools, be they integrated, structured modular, or doing it fulltime yourself at somewhere such as Bristol.

Yes, you point below plays a part a well, but BA has experimented in times of lack of suitable trainees in the mid-90s.

[no sponsor]

Resorting to personal abuse does not help your argument.

BA select from integrated full-time schools because they have a ready access to training records for the life of the student. The reasons you state are simply not correct.

[Boingy]

But surely you still get the end result - not everyone is in a position to throw £60K + at a full time course for two years even if they wanted to.

The quality of training is arguable it really depends on your instructor and YOUR APTITUDE. YOUR APTITUDE is what really counts. If you have ****e all aptitude you can still get lucky and land a job going through the intergrated or modular.

Aptitude and your networking skills are surely what will get you a job or not get you a job. How you got your ticket (unless it's a cornflakes jobby) doesn't matter one iota.

[no sponsor]

Agreed.

Throughout my training there were three groups of people:

- those who had to work hard to learn and fly, particuarly in the more advanced stages of flying but they got it in the end
- those who seemed to sail through all their training, with no remedial work required.
- the two left feet brigade, who had real difficulty and did not seem to have any natural ability.

One chap I knew on my course had already completed an IR course and failed. He spent another 25hrs post failure (at another school) and still wasn't anywhere near passing his IRT. I think it was down to his ability and the instructor, but he seemed to have absolutely no spatial awareness. I was quite impressed with his determination though - he just would not give up.

[Ricardo82]

Hey,

looking into doing the A320 TR. Any info on which Training Organisation offers the best course with line training? Storm with Wizz @ £28000, Sigma with MyTravel @ £44000...big cost difference!

If anyone has allready done the training could you shed some light on the rating and the line training itself.

Thanks.

[GusHoneybun]

why don't you go for MyTravel as it is painfully obvious that you have more money than sense.

[MrMutra]

Well said GusHoneybun

Many a true word said in jest :D


MrM

[zooloflyer]

Hey Ricardo, I found the one for you! Jetlink; only 66.000€ with 8 months of flying for free somewhere included; I guess it was line training at Air Balkan...at least the hotels that you have to pay there are not TOOOO expensive.

Go for it man!:ok:

Don't forget; first you'll have to pass the interview...that will be a tough one!

[dofly]

Ricardo,

I dont know if it is legal in this forum to post an address of a flight school (as I am new to this forum) but comfly in Berlin, Germany, does a good job on the TR training for the airbus.
The complete cost is about 21.000 € (approx. 15.000 GBP), plus 6.270 € (4.400 GBP) (current price) for the required 6 Traffic Pattern.

check it out: www.comfly.de

Happy Landings
GC

[d2k73]

only 66.000€ with 8 months of flying for free somewhere included

Anyone else see the humour in that?:rolleyes:

[Send Clowns]

Why don't you ask for a recommendation from the company you're going to work for?

[Ricardo82]

Thanks for the info, appreciate it. Any help is good help even if it is useless.

It would be nice to think the majority of people in aviation were fairly decent but thats just wishful thinking by the looks of it. PPRUNE so no surprises really!

I expected there to be some sarcastic unhelpfull reply to my post and i wasn't wrong. Thanks for proving me right.

If anyone has got something constructive to say i'd appreciate it.

[MAGVAR]

Ricardo82 is spot on:ok: if people want to enquire about SSTR just bloody let them...and to those who keep on with the famous Type Rating discussion... just save yourself the time to reply if it is not going to benefit someone.:E

[zooloflyer]

Dear Mr MAGVAR,

Having myself informed recently at some of the places offering SSTR I think my advice might be helpfull. What's your advise or experience? Are you maybe a SSTR salesman...:yuk:

As I stated before my major concern is all the waiting...waiting list for the TR, waiting list for the line training and what about quality. I hear Astraeus is more than OK but what with the daily changing job market situation??

I think most of the guys going for the SSTR now are the ones that have been looking for a job in the last 2 years but there simply were (almost) no jobs. I think it might be usefull to consider end 2005, beginning 2006 as the comeback for optimism.

Should you go for it, why not consider a prop TR, 30 to 40% cheaper and you will not have to pay for line training or at least try to make a deal with an airline before you start the adventure.

Recently 1 out of 10 guys :eek: with a TR was selected on an evaluation at TNT Airways before they started the ab-initio recruitment !! ha ha - take into account that the required standards are on another level once you claim to be the TR pilot!

[MAGVAR]

Dear Mr zooloflyer,

Some fair points made by you.... despite the stupid comment at the start!!:hmm: . It was not that hard was it?........ to give constructive information?:eek:

[zooloflyer]

I guess there's just no use in promoting the SSTR's - nobody gets better out of it - except the money makers.

It's definitely true that for some of us it might be the last chance to get the first right hand seat job but lets just try to keep it that way. Let's avoid the exeption making the rule ;)

[scameron77]

I can get an A320 TR in the US for around $11,500 (quite considerably cheaper than a JAA one) 500 hours without a work permit in this climate isn't going to happen unless I buy time and then its not guaranteed FAA.

Does anyone know what I can do to bridge my FAA TR to a JAA one? i.e. 3 day course at XYZ school and it costs 3 grand

[ramon76]

where in the US is that cheap? Please let me know. I imagine we could find out how to convert the TR to JAA, and save lots of $$$.
thanks.

[flash8]

You cannot "convert" a raw FAA TR with no experience. As has been said 500hrs on type would be the minimum.

I have heard though that a Canadian TR (thru Walts - ActiveAerospace? outfit in BC) could be valid with the JAA authorities in some countries (Belgium is one?) *without* conversion.

Sorry don't know anymore.

$11500 for an A320 TR seems awfully cheap though, and there can't be many US providers.

[scameron77]

Bond Aviation based in Atlanta. I looked at two, the 737NG course is based at Delta Airlines Contract Services. The course qualifies not only on the NG (600/600/800/BBJ) but also the EFIS models (300/400/500) so all in all its a pretty good deal at a cost of $9,500! FAA remember fellow wannabees.

Another PPRuNer, Tropaco put me onto them both. I hope he has found something since he first PM'd me

There are a number of good deals about but Bond seemed to be the best around (pricewise) and in terms of approach.

US Air offer a deal on the A320 for approx. $11,500

This is an article I found useful:

http://www.avweb.com/news/avtraining/182365-1.html

[james707]

A320 and B737 training link www.bondaviationservices.com or 1.407.888.2932 ask for Robyn

[scameron77]

Just thinking of basic maths, emotion aside. Also some issues I'll bring up in this post are maybe suited to other 'well worn' threads, lets keep this on TR issues.

He is my reasoning, get an FAA TR for average $10,500 and go to a middleman, buy 500 RHS hours for $20,000. (suited primarilly to FAA qualified European pilots but JAA qualified fATPL pilots can convert for around $4k)

Total cost = approx same as a TR without hours in a JAA state

Benefits
Type Rated in a heavy jet in both FAA/JAA
500 hours under you belt
Can command a better starting salary
Not bonded to anyone/dodgy contracts
Seen a bit of the world
Opens up a whole host of opportunities in many countries
Not getting butt-:mad: by O'Leary

Disadvantages
Paid out approx GBP 20k for something that after forking out 30k+ already is hard to swallow
Paying a ****e/weasel in an office somewhere to allow you to fly for a commerical operation
Starting flying in Europe 9ish months later than you would have if you got a JAA TR and got an all elusive first job with it.

[ramon76]

hi scameron,
It is hard to decide, when it is impossible to be sure if it will work out as we might think optimistically.

10k $ for a TR? and base training (T/O and Landings)?
where are you asured 500 hours in a jet for 20k?
VISA permits to live in the USA?
is it guaranteed? NO.

Do you know more places, emails etc? please I will appreciate any help. If some one is doing this adventure, advise me, perhaps I would do it too.
thanks!

[scameron77]

Most Europeans applyin for RHS jobs via the middlemen are sent off to Asia so I understand as its hard for the companies in the US to justify to the Immigration service why they are using non-Americans.

There are a number of providers such as Eagle Jet, a search on here under 'scum' will bring up the rest :E

2nd - I'm not sure if the requirements out here for the TR are the same as in Europe, maybe someone can enlighten us. But the article I posted seemed to allude that there was a flight portion. Maybe the JAA cost covers everything and the US is itemised.

Mate, I'm still 4 months away from doing the TR, all I can advise is do your homework, research on here extensively, take everything with a pinch of salt and go with what your brain tells you, avoid emotion.

[Coq Sportif]

Okay here's the rub.
Have ATPL(frozen) with MCC and no job and have been job hunting for a while. At the moment I am seriously considering getting a type rating from a training school/ academy in order to get a job, as I can't see another way.

What TR provider gives you the best chance of a job at the end?I know CTC ATP are probably the best but unfortunatly I didn't get past stage 3- so no go there, but after them who is the best? Any help much appreciated.
Thanks,

CS.

[heebeegb]

Save your money.

[INSIDEVIEW]

yeah ..right ..save it ...hang in there PAL ...there will be openings sooooonnn!!
i can feel it .....

[newbie008]

sorry to change the subject, but where did u do ur training? How did you afford to do it, as i see your only 21? cheers

[LEVC]

Which one: None, unless you have a job offer lined up

Why: Because there are better and more productive ways to spend the money than flushing them down the toilet

I know how it feels as most of the ppruners do also, but going this way wont get you anywhere.

Perhaps FI rating, or some travelling around where there are more jobs available, i am sure there are other possibilities, just pointing out the more obvious from my point of view.

Getting a job in a small/medium size company in OPS, i know many cases of people getting in to the RHS of their dreams this way, some get even economic help from the company to complete their flight training and TR.

A TR with no experience is useless, it would be different if you had 1000's hours on jets, but with no experience, it wont get you anywhere near the RHS you are looking for, instead it will get you very near bankrupcy unless you/your family are rich.

Try to get any flying job, keep flying , build a network of contacts within the industry, ETC......, that is much cheaper and much more productive.

Try to stay away from TR+Hours scheemes, the rate of succes of getting a job afterwards is pretty low, that is if you manage to do the flying they promise at all (make a search on Eaglejet and similar outfits and judge by yourself)

Good luck and be patient,don't let anything discourage you, you'll get there:ok:

[INSIDEVIEW]

Absolutely right ....
Myself ..i was a CFI (CFII MEI GROUND ) FAA now im at the final portion then i will be JAA rated also ...
im not sitting here ..paying to get a job interview ..i rather go back to flight instruction flying freaking Diamonds then sitting here and be a slave of the comapnies (by the way also my bank thinks that way ,so theres no way to get further money !)
Here in Germany ,it slowly picks up ,but i guess it takes another year till the market is booming ...depends what is happening in IRAN ...if that becomes another Oilcrises..well guys be prepared for some trouble in our Business ...
Im still quite optimistic ..and i rather fly a C172 over Stuttgart for money then sitting on the ground waitng for the BIG BOOM >>>>
Only my opinion ....
Cheers

[Mr Wonka]

Coq Sportif,

I understand your frustration at having to wait for you first job. So many on here are in the same position as you after waiting years, but seriously think, before spending your money. Imagine waiting for that first job with even more debt, and then facing the prospect of recurrent training. A type rating is only good if you have a job to go to.

As others have said, maybe wait, the market is moving and better now. Look at the benifit of FI rating, but if you are wanting to type rate suggest you look in the back of flight International or perhaps do a search on here.

Either way best of luck

:)

Mr W

[-8AS]

Paying for a type-rating with no job guarantee at the end is pure madness! Paying for a type-rating with a job guarantee requires a lot of thought. Do a flight instructors rating instead. About a 5th of the cost, will teach you a lot about aviaition, will build your hours, will turn you into a professional pilot not an on the outside 'civilian' with a licence and most importantly you will start to meet people within the industry!

Good luck!

[Superpilot]

Teaching is not something everyone can do. FI ratings are only for you if you feel you can teach. If you can't teach properly and force an FI rating upon yourself you will not be very good at your job. Without disrespecting anyone here, I bet quite a few did their FI ratings in blind faith. I know I couldn't do it*

* it = Getting into and out of a disgusting age old spam can 4-5 times a day, refuelling the thing twice a day and talking all day long!

Just my two cents, the other side of the coin and all that.

[Phileas Fogg]

One sees the anti, can't afford to pay for, SSTR mob out disuading others from, in their opinion, jumping the queue.

A SSTR can only serve to enhance one's chances of an airline job, a definite approach and step in the right direction but unless their is an offer of employment at the end of it then you will be jumping one queue, those against and/or can't afford, to join another queue of those that have already done it and are knocking on the airline doors for a job having not secured a job before or as part of the SSTR.

[low n' slow]

I fully agree with not to do a type unless you have job lined up afterwards.
You're still pretty young in the buisness. How long have you waited?

Take the time you have now to gain that extra experience that makes you sharper in the end. If you know you are a good teacher and you're good at explaining stuff over and over and over and over agian, perhaps try an FI rating. Or try to get an Ops/dispatch job somewhere. This is good stuff when you end up in the front office.

Or if you can, move around and try to find spot that has a local club that does glider towing or parashute dropping. This will build your confidence level in the cockpit and also lets you get some perspective after you''ve completed your training (I sort of take for granted that you dont have heaps of hours). I had the feeling of being invincible after completed training and after some towing I started to get a slightly more realistic and humble attitude towards flying.

I'm not saying this is what you need and I'm not insinuating anything here, but I know a couple of mates who have gone the same way as me and we all agree on that we needed it.

So basically: Take your time, If you start looking for big jets now, what are you going to do later on? This is the part where things get interesting so make the most of getting all that extra experience that you could miss out on by going directly to the big jets. And if you really want to get a TR, my suggestion is for you to look at the smaller regional types out there. Many of the bigger companies are starting to hire more experienced guys and girls and this leaves vacancies in the smaller operations. Some hot types right now are the Saab 340, F50, ATR, Dash 8 etc but make shure you can at least get a 300 hr line training afterwards, otherwise the type is useless.

Regards and good luck/ LnS

[BIGBAD]

Don't spend your money on a type rating if you don't have the promise of a job afterwards.

Most companies will only take 200/300 hr guys with a type rating if they are really short - this is very rare.

Recruitment across all airlines this coming summer will be good - with a lot of movement and expansion - there will be opportunities for inexperienced guys, but you just have to sit tight and keep plugging away for jobs.

Dont do a speculative type rating - its a very very big gamble :eek:

[Phileas Fogg]

But anybody that hasn't already got a type rating it hardly likely to get a job for the summer season, in many EU countries the summer starts at Easter, now, and if one went for a TR next week they would not have finished it until around July, then would come the airline SOP's & line training etc. thus a current non type rated pilot would be ready just in time for the end of the summer when very many experienced pilots will become available.

[low n' slow]

But anybody that hasn't already got a type rating it hardly likely to get a job for the summer season, in many EU countries the summer starts at Easter, now, and if one went for a TR next week they would not have finished it until around July, then would come the airline SOP's & line training etc. thus a current non type rated pilot would be ready just in time for the end of the summer when very many experienced pilots will become available.

Quite true, I'm lagging behind. But things will be much the same next year I reccon. Don't take a type of this kind now to be sure to be in time though for next year. Wait and see what happens while you keep your eyes peeled for something else and be on the ball early next season.

/LnS

[european champion]

All the guys who give advice not to pay for type rating should think first that staying with no job costs more.
Now with a type rating there is still no guarantee of a job,but its your money,its your decision to make whether to take a risk or not,it depends if you can afford it.
I am also thinking of doing a rating but only if i have a job guarantee,i dont think i would go for a jet since its too expensive and also too many people have it,i am looking into getting a rating for a medium size turbo prop,i dont know which one yet.

[LEVC]

One sees the anti, can't afford to pay for, SSTR mob out disuading others from, in their opinion, jumping the queue.
A SSTR can only serve to enhance one's chances of an airline job, a definite approach and step in the right direction but unless their is an offer of employment at the end of it then you will be jumping one queue, those against and/or can't afford, to join another queue of those that have already done it and are knocking on the airline doors for a job having not secured a job before or as part of the SSTR.

One can also see the "buy yourself a job" mob, making rich some son of a %%%%% on your way to your dreamed RHS, that is, if you get there at all after you fork the money out.
:8

[badgerpuppy]

if the likes of ryanair, who have been taking low hours guys for years, have resorted to having to advertise on this site that they are the high salaries airline with a great roster etc. things are on the move. Your time will come. Until then find something constructive to do or you will look the same as all the others who get a licence and achieve nothing but an IR renewal every year until someone gives them a job.

ta ta.

[Phileas Fogg]

One can also see the "buy yourself a job" mob, making rich some son of a %%%%% on your way to your dreamed RHS, that is, if you get there at all after you fork the money out.
:8

One sees that I ain't even a pilot and have never wanted to be but I talk to wannabees all the time, I LISTEN to their points of view and I voice them here.

Not satisfied then go discuss it in the dole queue, in my aviation career of some 27 years I've done what is necessary, others might consider trying the same and stop complaining at the doorstep, this industry owes you nothing, you have to find your own way in!

[Craggenmore]

I am also thinking of doing a rating but only if i have a job guaranteeThere was a very long standing and famous quote on a 'sticky' thread on this forum for years.

THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT

You will have to risk paying for a TR. No airline will sign a contract FIRST, giving you a job if you pay for a TR.

They might take you on afterwards ONLY if they are short of candidates with ZERO experience.

[Olof]

Many good posts here! I think it is very important not to rush into anything when being relatively young having a fATPL. Now, I have myself been in the very that akward and frustrating position not too long ago, facing nothing but dead time (or sending loads of CVs and filling out online applications) but as has been said so many times; buying a TR is a risky business. So if you are hungry and eager for a position with a major airline I see two options:

1. Ryaniar (if you're successful you might even get the bonded option). Yes, consider all the information before signing up with them. And yes, it requires luck and timing to be offered a screening at EMA.

2. CTC ATP scheme. Perhaps the best option. Not heard that much negative about them and it's relatively easy to get invited for stage 2 (was invited myself. All that was required was filling out the appliction and calling them once and violá!).

Buying a 737 classic or an A320 rating is just too risky. There are not that many job opportunities without hours on the type. So if you decide to go for a rating I completely agree with LnS. Go for the smaller ones: S340, the dash, ATR etc. It is UNREALISTIC to expect that you will get a RHS in a jet as your first job. If you do it's about luck, timing and contacts (and you will require that for any aviation job just perhaps not the same amount). Good luck!

[Phileas Fogg]

There was a very long standing and famous quote on a 'sticky' thread on this forum for years.
THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT
You will have to risk paying for a TR. No airline will sign a contract FIRST, giving you a job if you pay for a TR.
They might take you on afterwards ONLY if they are short of candidates with ZERO experience.

Bullsh1t,
One is, one presumes, referring to all the type rating vendors and not the actual employers and the two ain't necessarily the same.

Best to stay away from the fast food type rating vendors and find oneself an in-house type rating with a job thereafter.

Of course there will be clauses in the contract that to secure the job one needs to successfully complete the training and maintain a standard of proficiency but one can't expect to secure the job 100% until one is suitably qualified.

But, nothing in aviation is guaranteed, aviation is the most volatile of industries and subject to serious and instantaneous downturns in business in the event(s) of global conflicts and terrorism just as two examples.

[european champion]

Cragenmore i dont agree with you that there is no guarantees before doing a type rating.Personally i know people who have signed an agreement with an airline that after they do their own rating they will have a guaranteed job.I know its not very common but it can happen.
Ofcourse the other way is as you said to go do a rating without guarantee of a job.If u were doing this which rating would u choose to do?

[LEVC]

One sees that I ain't even a pilot and have never wanted to be but I talk to wannabees all the time, I LISTEN to their points of view and I voice them here.
Not satisfied then go discuss it in the dole queue, in my aviation career of some 27 years I've done what is necessary, others might consider trying the same and stop complaining at the doorstep, this industry owes you nothing, you have to find your own way in!

So you are their speecher.

LISTENING to what you have to say it seems all wannabees are willing to buy their way in, so you and your likes can make some money.

Cut the bull****, there are ways to have a break in the industry, there always have ben, and there will allways be, it may be long and require some effort.

And by the way, i have never been on the dole queue you seem to know so well, i had to work in jobs not related to aviation, but it wasn't the end of the world, and luckyly enough i am flying on the RHS, and still haven't paid for any job.

You are right , this industry owes me nothing, something i have always been aware of, but you seem to think that pilots wanting to have a break in have to buy a job from you and your likes (quoting your description, can i define it as Mob?).

[Phileas Fogg]

LEVC,
I don't vend type ratings so I don't make money and just what are 'your likes', my likes, you don't even know me?

I have never said that all wannabees want to buy their way in however I would estimate that between 75% and 90% of those that I speak with are prepared to self sponsor a type rating.

And once again, I don't vend type ratings and any opinion I have voiced is advice, non profit making advice!

[zooloflyer]

JUST STOP PAYING FOR TR's AND THE WHOLE SYSTEM WILL FINALLY CHANGE.

[Olof]

But seriously, do you think that ever will happen? Fresh fATPL pilots follow the stream. If buying a TR ends up in a position I'll go for that. IF there was a way to unite all unemployed pilots in some kind of noble strike against buying a TR that would ofcourse be the most beneficial solution. Supply and demand. That's what controls the market. Flight schools are popping up all over the globe supplying new pilots every week. Being a pilot is no longer the glorious proffesion it used to be. The fact that there is more supply than demand combined with the large training cost a TR course brings, it is not odd that you have to pay for the TR. But ofcourse you have to be wary. I would never do a TR solo without a company having expressed their interest in me....

[low n' slow]

I have to agree with Olof on this one.
Zooloflyer, do you really believe that I should have turned down my job offer because it involved a SSTR? If I had, you would most likely have taken it instead. This is the balance that maintains this trend. Effectively, you want all unemployed pilots to go on strike?! That doesn't just sound rediculous :hmm:

/LnS

[scameron77]

There are a group of people who could do something. I forward a motion that BALPA + the other JAA state unions could unite and advise the industry that no more self funded type rated pilots would be tolerated by its members. Is that going to happen? No bloody chance. So whats the alternative?

I agree with Olof completely. We hoard of unemployed can't rebel, we have no organisation, no unity. All we can rely on is honour among thieves, would everyone sign up? Does every fATPL holder even use PPRuNe? However I do see merit in Zoolo's sentiment, its just its feasibility and the logistics involved that makes it unworkable.

Where does it stop however? If we're going on strike with respect to TR's why not extend it to cover everything past our PPL's? It would've saved me the best part of 20k, it would have been nice if I got an airline to pay for that.

Now onto my second point, slight tangent but I hope it may bring the thread back on topic and steer it away from the acrimony.

In the wake of everything that's happened in aviation in the past 5 years, its safe to say any newly qualified pilot thinking without emotion has considered if the benefits of a self funded TR outweigh the cons. Some decide quickly (for financial or moral reasons seem to be theme), some mull over it for a while (thinking objectively but with an element of risk and further financial burden attached too) and some take the leap of faith for some it pays off, for the rest it doesn't.

We can't tell on here how successful it is, a number of pilots when they get that first job leave the wannabes forum long in the distance, like their comfort blankets or bicycle stabilisers. Plus there is no indication of how a TR rated pilot performed at his/her interview. The may have had a shocker, that isn't factored into the argument on here but pride and ego sometimes cloud objectivity.

What is safe to say is that we are all relatively well educated, most people would have stayed on for the maximum high school education, a high proportion of that would have went on to University too. I would suggest that we have the ability to give a subject ample consideration and merit before we form our opinions. Sometimes emotions take over on here possibly due to the anonymity the internet allows, the inability to convey facial expression, inflection, tone or delivery to a statement which can be done face to face or even over the phone to a degree, would not cause offence like it is perceived on here all to frequently (I'll hold my hands up and say I've been guilty of this for a number of months after joining).

I'm neither pro or anti getting your own TR, I am however pro-choice and won't castigate someone for suggesting it as a valid alternative or on the other hand I won't condone calling people who undertake it as prostitutes.

When reading someones posts, it may be worthwhile looking at their profile to see where they are coming from. I personally have a hard time finding much wrong with Scroggs' views (except for the A320rider thread) because I respect his experience and the fact I reckon he views no less than 80% of what is posted in the wannabes forums. I also think based on what he's written so far in this and other threads, that more people should take some notice of what Phileas is saying too.

Essentially what I'm now getting at is its all about 'Social Proof', it can't be demonstrated on here unless you investigate and research someones posts and background (granted they can be fictitious but I hope to come to rounded conclusions based on evidence supplied to me). Its easy in day to day life, you can gauge demeanour, bearing, wisdom through age, how erudite they are, etc. but alas, it needs some work by members on here.

If we are going to organise a strike, can I suggest if we do a sit-in, we pick a Brazil vs. Sweden ladies beach volleyball tournament? :E

[Olof]

Since I'm from Sweden and have a cousin coaching a volleyball team (ladies ofcourse) I will glady hand-pick the Swedish team for you :}

[scroggs]

This is always an emotional topic, and much frustration and anger always gets vented whenever it comes up. Frankly, the vast majority of that emotional energy is misdirected and thus wasted.

Self-sponsored type rating courses have existed ever since there was a commercial aviation industry, and they will not go away. Nor should they; they are a legitimate and perfectly moral way of achieving a speculative qualification. They, and their providers, are no different to the Open University, for instance, who exist to allow mature and otherwise unqualified people achieve a qualification which might improve their employability. They exist because there is a demand (and not just from low-houred wannabes), and the free market will always satisfy a commercial demand.

In fact, what is the difference between a SSTR provider and a CPL school? Both provide the training to achieve an aviation qualification which is intended to make the student employable within the industry, at a cost which provides a living for the training provider and which the buyer is prepared to pay. Even those SSTRs that provide an element of line training are no different. The only variable is the perception of how necessary such training is to obtain that job, and who should provide and pay for it.

A great many aviation wannabes have no experience of professional fields outside of flying, and assume that this is the only industry where an ever-greater proportion of training costs have been passed to the individual. Well, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Almost all professions require a large financial investment from their novitiates, and aviation is no exception - and arguably not the most expensive, either. Nor is aviation unique in its rejection of many of those who've paid for that training, though the rate of rejection may be higher in aviation than other fields.

The only area where the moral argument becomes a real issue is those few (largely US) 'co-pilot' programmes that expect you to pay to fly well beyond the normal type- and line-training period. These programmes are using fully-qualified pilots to operate their commercial schedules with no element of training and expecting them to pay for the privilege purely because they gain hours, and this is right out of order, and effectively puts people out of work (the people who should be being paid for that work). Any of you who sign up to one of these schemes should understand that you are paying to work, and doing it at the expense of people's jobs. That, at least in Europe, is on the borderline of legality and is certainly immoral - on the part of both the provider and the consumer. Line-training schemes, on the other hand, are not. They may be of limited use in the job-hunting process, or at least not as useful as their providers would like you to believe, but they are in no way immoral or unjustifiable.

Before any of you make any move to spend money on an SSTR/LT scheme, look very carefully at the market and the scheme on offer. Despite what has been said by at least one contributor here, there are never any guarantees of employment before the training is completed. There are very often no suggestions of employment at all; what you are paying for is a period of training, not an introduction to an employer. Are you better off having done an SSTR/LT package? Well, certainly not financially, and probably not in the job market, but it's your money (or at least I hope it is) - you spend it how you like.

Scroggs

[boxjockey99]

Wannabes and newpilots,
Thought these links might be of use to those wondering what is in store for you when you finally get your first type rating course date.
Hope they are of use
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/feature/75train1.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/feature/75train2.htm
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/feature/75train3.htm
Boxjockey99:cool:

[conor_mc]

Haven't had a chance to read through this in its entirety, only been reading snippets, but thanks very much for the effort. Gives a useful picture of what to expect on a TR.

Oh, and Congratulations too!

[ultimatepro63]

Very intresting !

[On speed on profile]

Scroggs,

Would you please elaborate on what you see as the difference between...

(largely US) 'co-pilot' programmes that expect you to pay to fly well beyond the normal type- and line-training period. and.....
Line-training schemes, on the other hand, are not.....they are in no way immoral or unjustifiable.


When some european schemes are offering 300 hours line training (advertised recently with no job offer) and some others, from what other SSTR buyers on this website have said, even more, what is the difference that you talk about and how are they not immoral? You are still taking someone who should be paid, out of a job because that line training is being conducted in a passenger or cargo carrying operation. Its not a bunch of people who buy a TR and then do some cost sharing to build their hours!!!!

OSOP

[scroggs]

Yes, of course, I'll be happy to explain the difference.

If you wish to undergo a course of training that gives you a useable qualification, you are entitled to take your trade to whoever offers such training. In the airline world, a type rating on its own is only half a qualification. If you want to offer yourself as qualified on an airliner type, you need the line training that effectively ratifies the type rating. In most shorthaul airlines, line training is around 40-50 sectors, or roughly 100 hours. At the end of that time you are awarded an 'area and airfield' ratification, which allows you to operate to anywhere in that airline's network. At that point, you should be considered to be a competent, though probationary, operator of that type. That is the limit of training in or for an airline, and should be the limit of training offered or contracted for commercially. This line training is always conducted on revenue sectors; the costs otherwise would be prohibitive for airline and trainee. Whether such a course is a worthwhile investment is for you to judge, but the existence of such courses is more or less justifiable - though a sad comment on the way things have changed over the last 30 years.

Any 'line training' or 'co-pilot' schemes that offer more than this 100-hour period are effectively using students to subsidise their costs, as there is no official line training course that requires any more than the hours I've mentioned. 300 or 500 hour 'courses' are simply exploiting your insecurities to get a free (or, rather, paying) first officer. That is immoral, and should be prohibited.

Please do not get the idea that I am defending the system that makes self-funded type and line training tempting for ab-initio pilots; I would far rather airlines paid these costs. However, I entirely understand the financial pressures that have brought this about. Also, for the experienced pilot (such as myself), type and line training deals can be a very cost-effective way of getting a job we are not currently qualified for. That is the nature of speculative training - you do it to make yourself more employable. It would be no different if I decided that I now wished to be a teacher or a lawyer; I would have to pay the entire training costs myself - but I would not be expected to pay to practise either once fully qualified!

Scroggs

[winch launch]

I thought most airlines with ATRs ask for hours on type. Which one don' t?

Thanks

Winch

[On speed on profile]

Scroggs,
but the existence of such courses is more or less justifiable - though a sad comment on the way things have changed over the last 30 years.


I still find the first part of this sentence a little hard to swallow but totally agree with the second part. While I accept what people say about speculative training (in any industry), I still think having to outlay in the region of £80k- £100K for training for any job is rediculous but I have said that all before!

Thanks for clarifying your previous post.

OSOP.

[planeshipcar]

With the new Multi Crew Licence approaching it seems as though sponsorships will slowly return. This is the only way that we will se a diminish in SSTRs. Lets prey it offers help to future pilots

Its not as easy a 'stop paying and the system will change' because there are many rich rich pilots out there who have Mum's and Dads who can afford type ratings no problem - just a year in a public school. Its your idea of what expensive and what's not. The supply will always be there! Sorry Zooflyer but I like your enthusiasm!

I myself am having problems funding, but I have slowly found the money for each module. I am interested in researching all avenues and keep checking every day, preying for the day I seeing the word sponsorship in bold and hopfully BA before. My first brochure about flight training that I saw was the BA spnorship scheme and I was gutted when this closed!

I prey in the case of flight training 'we get what we pay for'!

good luck.

[scroggs]

There is no chance that Zooloflyer or anyone else will persuade sufficient numbers of wannabes not to pay for SSTRs to make a significant difference to the market. It just flies in the face of human nature! Wherever you leave an opportunity, someone will take it - you are in competition for these jobs, and wherever an advantage is to be gained someone will exploit that opportunity. The demand for SSTRs is very large, that's why there are so many operators offering courses. This is not going to go away! The only thing that will change it is a shortage of inexperienced pilots, and that's not going to happen either.

The MCL does not presage a return to sponsorships. It may be more expensive than the current system (which it will run alongside), but that cost will be passed on to the candidate in some form. It is likely that more schemes will copy the CTC model to achieve this.

Scroggs

[3REDS]

After flight training 6YRS ago I decided to go down the instructor route which I really enjoyed even though at times I didn't earn enough money to live. We all got jobs on turbo props within a year. And the market was not as good as it is at the moment.

The FACT!!! is that myself and ALL my fellow instructors are now flying jets for various airlines. I know a couple of guys who paid for type ratings to try and jump the que and are still looking after many years, I think in some cases the rating has expired (5Yrs).

I suggest that you do an instructor course learn the basics,enjoy your flying and it WILL work out for you. I get really piXXed off with guys who come out of training and all they want to do is fly jets, aviation has more to offer than a big shinny jet, the sad thing is you will only realise it when you fly one.


Good Luck!

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

3Reds,

Firstly, you are the first 101 year old airline pilot that I have come across that holds a class 1 medical.

Interesting post, and I must admit I couldnt not agree with you more on certain aspects of your post. I currently instruct, and have been quite suprised on the amount of airline pilots that have approached me, while I have been working, to find out how they can get back into GA, and what they have to do to teach on light aircraft. The general trend appears to be, they want to get a bit more 'hands on flying', and give something back to the training industry.

With regard to people not wanting get invloved with other aspects of aviation and only wanting to fly jets (after their CPL/IR), well I guess it depends on their motivation. Through my time instructing, which is now approaching a year, I have met all different types of people, and I find it quite interesting listening to people talk about what they want to achieve. I must admit I used to find it quite irritating, when people used to dismiss flying light aircraft, and who really, seemed to have no interest in aviation generally. However, I guess that is life :).

After reading the majority of these posts, and many others, when this subject gets brought up, I would be interested to know what the general statistics are in people being employed after their TR. Like others here, I made a decision to instruct after finishing my training, however, a number of guys I know when down the TR road, to which all now are employed by various airlines.

Anyway I will continue to enjoy my spam can SupaPilot, beats sitting at a desk, even though I am constantly skint ;).

All the best.

[3REDS]

I actually think that the authorities should make it mandatory for new pilots to:

Firstly:
Instruct (lets say 500hrs)

Secondly:
Fly a Turbo Prop (lets say 1000hrs)

And only when ALL steps above have been completed are you than able to apply/complete a jet rating!

I think a system such as this would benefit both pilots and airlines.

It would make a better pilot.:)
It would make the conversion to jet easier.:)
It would reduce airline training costs.:)
It would rid this mine field of what should I do next.:)
Plus many more!

And above all it would create a level playing field unlike the situation at the moment when all that matters is who has the richest daddy!:yuk:

Good Luck to ALL.:ok:

[zooloflyer]

Here's something for the rich kiddies - dutch bus jet company asking only 40.000€ for a Citation rating - is this ex tax??

:eek:

and next they wonder why they are so short of pilots...:hmm:

[A320rider]

have you noticed? t/r are more and nore expensive.

it means less students paying=more companies paying(bonding or job promess...)

do not pay without a job guaranty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


trto sell now guns and bullets for your suicide...:}

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

A320, hope your CV doesn't have all those typo's and spelling mistakes on them? Perhaps that is why you haven't had any luck yet?

Just a suggestion ;).

[BitMoreRightRudder]

3REDS

I agree with some of your post. A period of mandatory light a/c instruction and a period on turbo-props as you did may well present a better prepared pilot to their first jet, certainly in terms of airmanship. Having gone onto a jet with few hours and no prior experience of public transport ops I very quickly became aware of the weaknesses of a low houred pilot in that role. You cannot substitute hours and experience no matter how much your training cost or how you went about funding it.

However, as I went onto a jet with 200 and something hours, using the rest of your logic I must have rich parents.Fact is I paid for all my training via a loan and am paying it all back without parental support. I don't have a dad, and believe me my mother is not rich. I understand your frustration that there are indeed some fortunate people out there who can afford to throw endless thousands away on thier training and not have to worry about the consequenses of failure. It isn't fair on the guys who risk everything to get that elusive first job. But there are those of us who take on a large loan and are lucky but not necessarily rich! We seem to get caught up into the generalisation that low houred people flying jets are rich kids.

This debate will never end, it is just another form of the hamster wheel on jet blast. If you want to pay for a TR off your own back without an airline expressing any interest then I think you are mad, but who am I to judge others - as was said before it's your money, or at least it will be yours to pay back.:oh:

Good luck to those in the hunt,especially you A320;)

[jonnyhock]

Hello,

ive read through various threads on this subject but as you are no doubt aware the opinions vary wildly!

I have pretty much chosen a school and made the financial arrangments to do the JAA frozen ATPL, however i am concerned about my employability when i have completed this course, at this point i anticipate that i will have around 250 hours. Not a great amount admittedly!

Would it be worth my while to pay out extra to get type rated? and if so, on which aircraft? Please note that i am by no means made of money, so such a venture would have to be worth it.

Any comments are greatly recieved.

thanks

[Lucifer]

Not without a job, no.

With no line experience it will be worthless; with a little line experience, many will have to retrain you to their SOPs anyway.

[George_08]

Hey!

Well, the question is rather obvious I guess - How can I get type rated?

I have spoken to numerous pilots about this, and I still don't quite understand the concept. I mean, if I was trained in a twin engined light aircraft to get my CPL, then when I get enough hours I want to make the transition to an airliner - How do I do this independantly? I know how it can be done if you are on a sponsorship scheme with an airline.

Also, if I was type rated to fly a Boeing 737 with Easyjet, and I was offered a contract with say, Iberia to fly MD80s - How would I get the type rating??

Hope I've made myself clear enough :)

[abracadabra]

Why would you want to do a type rating independently???

The majority of airlines still (thankfully) train their pilots on their specific types to their specific requirements and SOP's. Some airlines, like easyjet and Ryanair, make you fund most or all of the cost yourself, but you are still getting the type rating under their umbrella, and assuming you pass the course you get employed with them.

Some people do go and get their own type ratings independently, but this is a dangerous road to go down and frought with difficulties. Just do a search and see how many people on this site have paid for a type rating and are now having to look around for line training opportunities because no-one will employ them.

First you get your 'frozen' ATPL, then you get a job, then your company sorts out your type rating. Or at least that's the way it should be! (Of course if you're a sponsored cadet you get the job before getting your frozen ATPL).

If you are 737-rated with easyjet and want to move to Iberia, which is the difficult part in itself, you will absolutely not have to first get your own type rating on an MD-80!!!

Unless there have been some radical changes which I am not aware of, Iberia will sort it out for you!

[dartagnan]

this is correct, the best way to be type rated, is to go trough a TRTO having contact with airlines.

after being selected, they will train you at the airline standards(airports, routes, SID&STAR), and you will start flying right after your simulator.

Do not "sponsore" yourself if no job guaranty.

[boogie-nicey]

Now I am a great fan of the Search function but cannot seem to establish any relevant results that relate to typical prices for Type Ratings. I know I've come across this in the past without much interest but now that I would like to get access to those threads I can't seem to find 'em.

Any clever people who might know a thing or two about type rating costs I would REALLY appreciate it.

Anyway hope all else is fine and my fellow ppruners are still smiling :ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

It varies between types....what aircraft are you thinking of?

[boogie-nicey]

Well I was think along the lines of Boeing 737 Classic/NG, 757/767, How does that compare with a rating on say a turboprop or regional jet.

I am sure I came across a long list of general prices for numerous aircraft in the past and at the time didn't think too much of it .... until now :)

I have checked out a few such as the 737 CL at Lufthansa Flight training at 16,450 Euros per person but I guess I'd need to factor in Base Training too.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Boeing 737 rating's are about £16,000 - £19,000 or £20,000 to £22,000 in the UK. NG upgrades cost approx. £2500. The last 757/767 rating i saw was about £25000.

As for turboprops...ATR 42/72 cost around 17k in the UK and about 12k abroad. Kingair ratings are about 12k UK but can be done for as little as £5000 in some countries.

All the prices I've mentioned included the base checks. To be honest, with the market the way it is I dont think a type rating is that great an idea anymore unless its done through an airline/training company. i.e. Ryanair/Easyjet/Monarch/Thomas cook because none of the mentioned airlines are currently recruiting no hour type rating pilots unless it was done through them or CTC:ok: .

[Norrington]

I have been searching the net, and I must say this huge difference in price between different type rating providers surprised me.

For a B737 classic rating, Price ranges from over 20000 to 14400 Euros.


When you buy a business class ticket you get extra leg space and free nuts, but what do you get extra when you buy a expensive “business” class type rating compare to a low cost rating, both take you to the same place, right?

[Sandshrew]

I did my rating on the B737 and paid aprox. 20 000 Euro, plus base check 5 000.
Well it was ok. But I honestly don’t know why they charge over 5 000 Euros extra for nothing. (No accommodation, that at least another 1 000 Euros) Well they claim they have good connections with airlines, and many of their students find job. It might be true, but I had to find it by myself. If you are a type rating provider you most certainly have connections with airlines so it doesn’t make any of them special.

If I would have know I could save over 6 000 euros.. guess the answer.:rolleyes:

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

yeah Norrington but the touch and goes are pretty expesive at reinheim.

I think it was something like 6000-7000eu

[Norrington]

Jimmy,
"reinheim" Are we talking about the same company? www.randhem.com (http://www.randhem.com)
Randhem charge you 5000 euro (fixed price) for the B737 base check.
6 touch and go with Sterling Airways.

[Dmax]

But, Randhem has no job or contact with airlines to help you. The 737 Classic rating is in the USA so you have to spend about 1000 € to go there. The Hotel is included in the price (14400€) I know.

5000 the Base check. So It will be about 20500 € to complete. Plus some cost for european movement to go to the touch and go place and hotel. Let's make 21000-21500 €.

Intercockpit 737 Classic only is about 16450 € + about 6000 € for base check. You save 15 days hotel cause the CBT is performed at your home (they send laptop with that). You train with Lufthansa standard in a single place (same place for Sim and base check, in Berlin) and after you have at least the Job Engine to be helped to find a job. (I don't know if it is good or not).

Sabena, until 15 September, offer the 737 Classic at 23000 € all included and SN Bruxelles flight tickets discount to get to them. High standard and, they say that, about 60 airlines in connection to help you find a job.

Between them there is not a large difference in prices, but you have to evaluate the job hunting after the TR, and last but not least, the quality of training.

Davide

[Norrington]

Davide, Why do you say ”only”
Intercockpit: 16450€+6000€ = 22450€ +hotel (50*30 days) 1500€?, and travel 100€?. Total: 24 050€
Randhem: 14400€+5000€= 19400€ +tickets to the states 600€, tickets to base check 100€ (Hotel included at base check). Total: 20 100€
You pay them 3000€ extra. I really do hope they will give you a job.
To quote BAP "most of the time they are just telling you stories in order to make sure that you enrol on there course... "


All of them uses CBT.

The quality of training and the amount of simulator hours are very important:
Intercockpit, 52 hours,
Sabena, 47 hours.
Randhem, 55 hours.

Are you sure you can mange without those extra hours?
What do Interkockpit and Sabena charge you per extra session? 1500€?

[Chinchilla.612]

You pay them 3000€ extra. I really do hope they will give you a job.
But do you honestly think you can buy a job?

Sorry if I'm missing the point here..........but aren't you both trying to buy a job?!?

[Norrington]

Well, yes. Pay for training, just like buy your CPL training in order to get a job.

[Chinchilla.612]

The CPL is obviously generic though and allows you to work in any area of the industry.
With the TR you are planning to do, there is a more limited market.
Do you know which training provider the company(ies) you hope to work for use, as does it not help to attend the same course with sop's biased towards the company of choice?Unless you are planning to pay for your line training as well??

[Chinchilla.612]

Yes I agree that a CPL course limits you to aviation, but not so limited as a specific aircraft type.

Are they the only one of the companies discussed who are flexible enough to cater for airline specific sop's? And are they used by your target airline?

[Norrington]

To be honest I don't know, I haven’t asked them.

The topic of this debate was what you get extra when you buy a more expensive B737 type rating.
Do you really get a job more easily?

[AlexL]

Is it possible that we could keep peoples personal opinions as to the wisdom or otherwise of Buying a TR and create a useful constructive thread about TR providers.
We have had a good thread about MCC courses with a nice summary at the top, so perhaps this could evolve into one about Type Ratings.
There are enough other threads about bitching about the whole SSTR thing, perhaps just this one could contain some useful information?

[Sandshrew]

Alex L,

We can start by making a list of all the type rating providers.
And then compare them

Avia training www.aviatraining.no
Bond Aviation www.bondaviationsolutions.com
CEA www.cae.com/aviationtraining
Dan Fly Aviation www.danfly-aviation.com
GECAT www.gecat.com
Intercockpit www.intercockpit.de
Randhem Aviation www.randhem.com
Sabena www.sfa.be

Put in those I have missed.

[Modal]

Parc Aviation - http://www.parcaviation.aero/

[Jannik23]

HAs anyone done a TR wit FSB as they only offer 32 hrs of simtime on their 737 course ??
thinking of doing it with them - but am afraid that 32 hrs sim is not enough - extra hrs are £400 pr hr



Jannik

[Dmax]

Also Intercockpit do only 32 hrs on Full Flight Simulator. 16 hours has been performed on FTD.

I think that FSB is the same, 32 hours on FFS and the other on the FTD.

Davide

[Jannik23]

Hi again Dmax

Whats FTD ?? and are 32 hrs enough or do people usually need extra hrs ? Alot of other TRTOs offer 40-50 hrs in the sim - thats why the 32 hrs worry me -

I thinking of starting i Oct or so so if anyone has the CBT for sale Im interested so I can start to pratice it now

Jannik

[Dmax]

FTD is the Flight Training Device I think.....it should be the fixed simulator for FMS and to learn the procedures guide.

I think that TRTO are all almost similar....

Sabena makes 36 hours on FFS and 15 on FTD
Intercockpit 32 hr FFS and 16 FTD

I don't know FSB how may hours on FTD is.

Davide

[K. Soze]

http://www.flugschule-berlin.de/
http://www.cockpit4u.com/
http://www.flypgs.com/eng/pilot.egitim.asp
http://www.stormaviation.com/
http://www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/
http://www.twinair.ch/
http://www.datflightacademy.com/

[Sandshrew]

Add all extra included in price, hotel, travel, if the the fixed base training is done in real simulator and so on.

Avia training www.aviatraining.no
50 hours, 19900 EURO, real sim.

Bond Aviation www.bondaviationsolutions.com
52 hours, Price?

CEA www.cae.com/aviationtraining
Hours, price?

Dan Fly Aviation www.danfly-aviation.com
42 ½ hours, 17950 EURO

GECAT www.gecat.com
Hours, price?

Intercockpit www.intercockpit.de
52 hours, 16450 euro

Randhem Aviation www.randhem.com
55 hours, 14400 Euro, Hotel included. real sim.

Sabena www.sfa.be
47 hours, 23000 Euro, Hotel, and base check included?

Parc Aviation - http://www.parcaviation.aero
Hours, price?

www.flugschule-berlin.de/
Hours, price?

www.cockpit4u.com/
Hours, price?

www.flypgs.com/eng/pilot.egitim.asp
Hours, price?

www.stormaviation.com/
Hours, price?

www.bettsrecruitmentltd.co.uk/
Hours, price?

www.twinair.ch/
Hours, price?

www.datflightacademy.com/
Hours, price?



Base check can be done at Sterling airways for a fixed price of 5000 euro.


"Whats FTD ?? and are 32 hrs enough or do people usually need extra hrs ? Alot of other TRTOs offer 40-50 hrs in the sim - thats why the 32 hrs worry me -
I thinking of starting i Oct or so so if anyone has the CBT for sale Im interested so I can start to pratice it now
Jannik"

Jannik,
32 hours full flight are usually standard,
but the Fixed Base Simulator hours may differ, some companies use mock-up or similar= not good.
I have done the rating my self and I think it's important that you do these hours in a real simulator. Otherwise it’s a big chance you have to spend extra money on hours.
If you enrol to a course well in advance you will get the CBT anyway long before course start.

Over 50 (total) simulator hours is good.
(If you have previous jet experience you can do a shorter course)

[Eggwhite]

I have a bridge for you to buy... I send you a picture after the payment :}

[Olof]

If your gonna buy a rating, go for the smaller TP ones like Saab 340. Getting yourself a brand and shiny 738 rating with a small amount of hours could turn out to be very dangerous. The only time I'd pay for a jet TR is if I have a company backing me up (i.e Ryanair or similar...)

[Capt. Crocodile]

I too was going to do an A320 endorsement + buy F/O time but I only have 350 TT. I checked recruiters web sites where pilots post their details for employers and have come across thousands of pilots with A320 and B737 TR and other heavy jets TR with thousands of hours on type who can't find jobs. Search recruiters web sites before you spend the money to get an idea of who you're competing with- unless ofcourse you have $ to spend. Good Luck!

[nuclear weapon]

I was wondering if any of you guys currently flying jets found the type rating easier than the ir. I am asking becauce I am currently 15hrs in to my ir and the learning curve seems pretty steep.I am just begining to grasp it. Since I started training a couple of years ago I've only known of one person who failed the type rating or was kicked off so to speak.
Having said that half of the people I know that are currently flying jets partialed thier ir one even passed his ir on the third attempt and got through the ctc atp scheme. Is the type rating generally easier compared to the instrument rating.
Your feedback will be highly appreciated.
*Its worth noting that those ir partials were mostly for small but serious enough mistakes due to the mental workload of the ir flight test based on the feedback I've got from friends that have done it.

[mad_jock]

I have heard of a few that have failed.

It's just different. I don't know about jet types but TP's its proberly about the same intial learning curve than the IR its just that your use to that stress level now so it doesn't seem to bad. Its a different enviroment to learn in. The simulator is intially a scary bit of kit which after 2 hours can and will make you feel sick if you don't shut your eyes as soon as, if not before the TRI starts slewing it.

The real main differences is the multi crew change and learning to operate the machine instead of flying the machine. Intially you will try and take on to much of the work load after a while you learn you have but to ask and you shall get unless you have an old school captain who will have selective hearing until they would do what you want (99.9% of the time they are doing you a favour by missing hearing you)

The LST is nothing like the IR test in a MEP. And if your lucky enough to have a sim partner who is a proper captain instead of another low hour FO trainee. The whole thing is a breeze in comparision.

But its all subjective It could be its 10 times harder than the IR training its just that your personal limits have changed and even with the increased work load you are operating at 90% of your limit instead of the 120% you were doing while doing the IR course. And the second type is brillant fun. All the stuff you were maxed out on before is renforced and properly understood. All the profiles are virtually the same apart from new speeds. You know what the other person is doing. And you are so far ahead of the game you just have to figure out what sodding button to press to get what you want. And the adjustment of your scan takes a while to bed in.

[Dmax]

Some Details on prices:

Sabena: till 15 Sept. 23000 € all included, plus discounted SN Bruxelles's flight tickets to get to them. Fixed base simulator is not a mock-up but a semi-real simulator (see the website) JOB HELP AFTER (about 60 airlines in contact)

Intercockpit: 16450 € only the course, you have to add the base check that they said me is about 6000/8000 € (a little bit expencive eh?) so total in the worst case of 8000€ B.check= 24450€ (But you save Hotels for CBT that you do at your home not in Germany). JOB HELP AFTER

Cockpit4U: 17300€ only course + 6270 € base check= 23570€ NO JOB HELP AFTER

Randhem= 14400 € course + 5000 € base check= 19500 € (note, in the USA, so add from 600 to 1000 € to get there, so about total of 20500) NO JOB HELP AFTER

Astraeus (Bond aviation solutions): about 24000 € included base check MAYBE JOB HELP AFTER

Aviatraining: 19900 € course 50 hours + 5150 € base check = 25050 € total
16875 € course 36 hours + 5150 € base check = 22025 € total
16500 € course 34 hours + 5150 € base check = 21650 € total
NO JOB HELP AFTER

Parc aviation: Assessments 800€ (not refundable if not admitted to the course), IF PASSED ASSESSMENTS (not so easy), 27500 € all included.
Theoretical course in Dublin, Simulator in London, Base check in Sweden (maybe with FlyMe) I think other 1000 € spent traveling and in hotels. JOB HELP AFTER, MAYBE 100% CANDIDATES HAS BEEN PLACED IN AN AIRLINE (any further information about that?)

Hope this help you (and me :) )

Cheers
Davide

[Dmax]

.........And some details on Simulator hours:
NOTE: share the FFS hours (full flight sim) from the FTD or CPT (fixed simulator / cockpit procedure training).


Sabena Flight Academy: 67 Total hours (52 FFS + 15 CPT) The CPT is a nice fixed simulator with switches and lights, see here http://http://www.sfa.be/training-facilities/self-sponsored/brussels/CPT-B737-300.htm

Randhem: 55 Total hours (35 FFS + 20 fixed based)

Intercockpit: 52 Total hours (36 FFS + 16 Fixed based)

Aviatraining: 50 Total hours (don't know the FFS/FTD/CPT parts) or (cheaper course) 34 Total hours or 36 Total hours courses

Astraeus (bond aviation solutions): 52 total hours (16 Fixed base sim. + 36 FFS)

Parc Aviation: don't know

Cockpit4U: don't know

Cheers
Davide

[Mercenary Pilot]

Randhem: 55 Total hours (35 FFS + 20 fixed based)

The fixed base stuff is all done in the Level D simulator but with the motion switched off.

[K. Soze]

I heard that Cockpit4u has contacts with WizzAir and maybe AirBerlin.

[herta]

Hallo !

I did my 737 TR at the FSB. Really happy about it. 32 hours FFS 737-700, 2 hours 737-300 and 4 hours of test.
In addition, they offer a paid line training (as F/O) of 100 hours with Germania (HLX.com). In addition they really have good connnections with the market and can sometimes (worked in my case) recommand and place their students (particularly if you speak german).
As a matter of fact, the school is onwed by an Air Berlin senior Capt as well as a Germania Cpt. As a matter of fact, a lot of people have be placed to Air Berlin in particular.


Accomodations and life in Berlin is really cheap and interessing !

[Dmax]

Did you hear some type rated in FSB non-german speaking that fund a job?

I was interested in FSB but I've heared that few pilots, always german speaking, fund a job thank to FSB.

The line training in Germania have a loooooong waiting list (1 year); how long did you wait? Paid line training what do you mean? You have paid that or included in the 22000 €?

I've read here on pprune guys that after the 100 hours for Germania are still unemployed.

Davide

[Dmax]

Ok but we would like to know if these are isolated cases to people speaking german. Obviously, if I was a Chief pilot of an italian airline and a TRI of an Italian TRTO show me 2 type rated pilots, 1 german and 1 italian, given the same skills, I'd take the italian.

So, I think that this is the same thing there; aboveall if the TRTO has only german airlines contacts. It would be different if the TRTO had contacts with various international airlines.

Davide

[Dmax]

Any news or details of pilots employed after Sabena Flight Academy?

[herta]

Dmax : The line training, you don t pay for it, but it is you that is paid. You get money FROM the airline.
Of course there are people with 100 hours on type without a job. As well as other with 300 ! It also depends upon the person. There are people you don t want employ even with 500 hours on the type ( I met one ex FSB graduate... I understood why nobody wanted him !).

The FSB has also "placed" some Dannish guys within AirBaltic, but that s all I know...
It is true that the waiting list is long, but 100 hours on type is a something fantastic to get a job. Moreover, they place as many people as possible in order to shorten the list. I refused my line training with the FSB because they found me a job.

[Dmax]

How many hours had you when get a job?

I heared that Sabena Flight Academy help to give you a job and the quality of training is optimum.

Has somebody information about that? I'm going to choose one between FSB and Sabena.

Davide

[herta]

I had the lowest possible : 1 hour on type (base check) and 240 hours total time

[straightnotlevel]

anybody researched the best avenue for buying a jet rating?? jaa approved etc, im too lazy to look.thanks.

[Megaton]

If you're too lazy to look I think you'll find most people are too lazy to help!

[boogie-nicey]

Type Rating is only half of the argument and you need to consider where and how you wish to gain the line experience. It will indeed put you ahead of the 'game' but the effort and resource required will not be proportional to the gain.

Why not keep the money aside and indicate on applications that you are prepared to self fund type rating. If you still wish to go for the SSTR then you need to look into the line training too.

[Kazakhstan]

I am looking into a type rating with PARC. I trained with them for the MCC and heard similar to what is posted and I have heard from others who have gone through PARC that they now have jobs.

Airlines and organisations are unable to train pilots quick enough, it seems.

From what I have learnt self funding is the way to get ahead, otherwise it could be a 6 month wait to get on a type rating course.

Will post when I have more information.

Is there anyone who is considering PARC as, from what I understand, they take groups of 4 for the T/R training.

Has anyone looked at www.eaglejet.net , They seem to be based in the USA and offer 300 and 500 hours line experience on a number of aircraft from Corporate Jets to Heavy Commercial Airliners and at various prices. They were advertising in Flgiht International.

Does anyone know about this company?

[New FO]

GECAT

16995 A320 TR

4500 Base Training

These prices are including VAT. Thats what stung me, I was a bit stupid, forgetting VAT and allowed 20 grand, this left me 1500 to find short notice.

Cant think for the life of me how many hors this course is. Either 36 or 40 in the FFS (Full flight sim). Should probably know that as I just completed it!

I was on an airline secific course, however, I get the idea their 'non destination' courses are still useful for gaining employment.

Training is nothing short of excellent. This really is a top quality TRTO all be it their prices arent cheap. On completion they arwe compassionate to the money you have spent and help massively with placing you, even though this is not a promise.

A lot of what I have said has been passed from the organisation or third parties in it. As I said, my SSTR was airline specific but it seems theyre not bad for other Type Ratings.

DONT PAY TO DO LINE TRAINING! Sorry, I'm sure it may be neccessary sometimes but I hate the fact that pilots can be expected to pay for the right to supply a commercial service.

I hope I have supplied some usefull info re gecat. GOOD LUCK!

[MrMutra]

My own opinion is to not pay for the type rating in the first place.

However, i am aware that so many pilots are now paying without thinking, it seems to becoming the norm. So perhaps I will have to start thinking about changing my mind.:confused:

Its easy to comment on " do not pay for line training etc." but as I see it, those making that kind of huge financial commitment are those with full time jobs and a fist full of hours on type.

Those with a new type and no hours are stuck, type rating running out of date slowly and renewal looming, will naturally look towards the next phase, those offering line training. More money to find, but a fool and his/ her money !! :ugh:

For anyone paying for a type good luck, and best wishes. :)

Mr M

[boogie-nicey]

I was wondering what the differences are between the JAA and FAA type rating training syllabuses and approach to teaching?

This is something I have heard little about, other than the quantiful views and opinions expressed on the generic JAA vs FAA CPL/IR debate. In JAA land low hour graduates go onto there TR and it appears that the system is indeed accomodating to that approach. However in the US pilots poast 1000-1500hr mark go onto a TR, this is further reflected in the entry requirements of numerous US TRTOs that state you must have xxxx hrs flight experience before applying for a course.

What's the difference here, is one foxused on systems, whereas the other concentrates on airmanship and CRM perhaps?

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

For many US airlines, type ratings are only undertaken as part of a command course. If you fly as a passenger on a regional jet for example, the FO most likely will not be type rated. Only when he's up to command time (3000 ish) hours will they get the TR. Over here, you can guarantee that the FO has the TR, no matter what experience level.

The only solid difference between the two is that the FAA will grant you a TR without having to set fly the actual aircraft. Over here you need to be base checked.

[XL319]

Where can you get this done? Do airlines do this when you get a job offer? Any advice?

[JIC]

Hello XL319.

I don´t know what your experience is, but as the times are today a very few airlines pay for your type rating. You have to buy it yourself. Maybe if you are experienced some will pay?

If you don`t know where to find the schools which offers type rating just take a look around on this site. There are also alot of commercials for type ratings on this site. So look around.

On this site there is alot discussions whether one should pay or not for your own rating. Listen to what every one have to say and take what you think is right. I personally think that whether we like it or not, we have to accept the reality.

Hope you can use my avice.

Jic

[XL319]

Thanks for your advice. So really we are looking at another £12k on top of your fATPL?

[captwannabe]

More like £20k. Not including food and accomodation while you're training.

[potkettleblack]

Do a few searches on the following and all will be revealed:-

- gecat, bond, astreus, skyblue, type rating

[BlueRobin]

There is a list of UK type rating training organisations (TRTOs) on the CAA website. Try looking under Safety then Flight Crew Licencing

[wingnut-will]

I know of one Airline that will pay for your TR, in return for a bonded contract. Theres no such thing as a freebie unfortunatly!:}

[captwannabe]

There are plenty of airlines that will pay for your TR, but surely you don't expect them to pay for it and then let you walk off without bonding you to the company?

[jamess115]

Hi
I have just graduated with an FAA converted to JAA Multi CPL/IR but with few hours.
This may seem like a very obvious question but could someone please tell me what are the general requirements to obtain a first officer position with a regional airline in the UK? Obviously this heavily depends on the Operator but it appears that a lot of airlines seek type ratings as a minimum requirement - in which case what does this mean; A type rating course and a certificate or actual hrs (ie.100) on a sim/aircraft such as Learjet/B737?
If there is an alternative option to this such as simply building hours up on SE/ME aircraft as a flying instructor then it is preferable if feasible? Is this what the majority of people do?

If anyone knows of a website where it specifically states the hours requirement for UK Airlines it would be very helpful as it gives one a goal of something to work towards.

Thanks

[kuwait340]

hi ....

i was reading on CAA SRG website regarding flight crew licence ....and i noticed 2 things ( type rating / class rating ) ..what is the difference between them ?

appreciated..

[Deano777]

Isn't the class rating like Single Engine or Multi engine piston? generally for when you have not got a type rating, whereas the type rating speaks for itself, you obtain a type rating for any turbo prop or jet engined aircraft

[NavPilot]

Isn't the class rating like Single Engine or Multi engine piston?
Class would imply Single/Multi engine Land/sea and the likes.
The rating would be descriptive of the type itself.

NP

[dartagnan]

jaa license, t/r and 300-500h on the aircraft.
experience general 1000-5000h tt with jet experience.

some have been hired with less, but they come from very expensive schools (Integrated training?)and if not hired, they are stuck with 200h ours and empty pocket.

[captainloulou]

I have exactly the same question than you. As far as I know this is better to have a type rating, I would say that with it you are almost sure to get a job or you have certainely more chances but it does not mean that without it you cannot get a job.

[kuwait340]

appreciated...

thanks

[LFS]

Type Rating is for one specific 'type' only e.g. 737
Class Rating allows you to fly any aircraft in that Class e.g. SEP Land/Sea MEP Land/Sea

[difman]

Hi to you all,
I´d like some help! As the title says, I´m looking for TRTO:s that offer type ratings (JAA) on the CRJ200/700/900. Also, any tips and comments from someone who´s done the course would be highly appreciated.
Thanx in advance!

[tdk90]

Anyone??

Looking for the same thing, converting an FAA ATP diffman?

[ICING AOA]

www.icare.fr (http://www.icare.fr)

[number]

hi all,

What is a good average price for a 737 TR in Europe? Sabena just quoted me 23.000€ VAT included, which seems quite expensive to me..
what do you guys think?

[bear11]

You could try Atlas Jet in Turkey - I am told they should have a TRTO for their own CRJs up and running now for their own pilots.

[TolTol]

Does that include base check? Seems like a good price to me if it does.