Type Rating - which type, where, why pay etc?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm sorry Luke, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Sally it is possible to do a complete ATPL course for £35,000 if you are very lucky. If you have a suitable school close to home, if you pass everything first time, if you go distance learning and modular, if you can go stateside initially and if you live like a monk during the process. I know as I have seen people do it - just.

For the younger Wannabe I suggest getting in the ATC and doing well - it got me my first couple of hundred hours gratis, but even a lot less if free flying = money.

At one time (when I couldn't afford it) I disliked the CTC scheme as it then worked. Now with a little more insight I can see the merit of the scheme. There is a gulf between your Senecca IRT and base training in your 737. The CTC is seems to me provides a bridge for this gulf which is compelling to the jet airlines and yet which is not outlandishly expensive for the Wanabee. We all hate training providers because they are so expensive, we are all so insignificant to them and their results can be hugely variable. Yet I see little reason to deplore what the likes of CTC are trying to achieve.

Even though it does cost yet more money :(

It does well to bear in mind that a CAP509 course in 1996 cost £56,000. Compare to most Integrated courses nowadays and factor in inflation and average earnings - you end up finding that such full courses are now cheaper than they were.

Personally I think type ratings are too big a gamble unless you have an 'In' to a particular operator. A lessor gamble is something akin to the CTC option. Or using the type rating money to fund you into being cabin crew with a particular airline, suffer a minimum wage job in an Ops dept somewhere, or indeed pay for a flying instructor rating next Spring.

One has to of course remember that the old IR renewal is coming and simply funding that might have a higher claim on ones final reserve of cash.

Whatever, its a rock and a hard place. Good luck,

WWW

[Splat]

Grivation

Whereas I agree with the more, lets say clasic way of rising up the ladder, the problem that I see is that the number of such TP jobs have diminished. At the same time, faster jet positions have increased.

I'd very much like to cut my teeth on a TP, but there are less and less options available. Look at AIR UK - KLM UK - no jobs here any more, and there are other examples as I'm sure you are aware.

S

[fibod]

Grivation, for the majority you are right, although I would question modern turbo-props or the often quoted air taxi as being easier than a FO position on a B737/A320, and hence more suitable for someone who has just graduated from a flight school.

You are very wrong, though to say CTC is a wannabee funded recruitment agency. It is a TRTO, whose primary customer is the airlines, but offers a small number of flight school graduates the opportunity to fast-track to a jet or airline turbo-prop FO position through a sponsored type-rating.

A very few potential pilots are suited to fast tracking to a jet airline. These are the few who are sponsored from the start, or after getting their licences, by the airlines directly or through the CTC ATP scheme or Astreus’. A very few more get first jet jobs directly themselves, usually during the occasional hiring booms.

Why should the likes of BA and bmi bother with this? A number of reasons, including:

- those who represent ‘the cream’ before training generally remain ‘the cream’ through training and beyond. Would you like to employ the best or second best?
- by the time you have worked for a couple of airlines, you have picked up lots of habits – not necessarily bad, but different habits. These are difficult to train out. Airlines prefer a clean sheet of paper rather than an employee coming with a load of baggage.
- if someone had offered to pay all your training costs, just how loyal would you be to them?
- ‘junior’ employees cost less than ‘senior’ employees. Those savings are offset if the airline has to pay for some or all of their training.

That said, I don’t think there is any airline who would like all their new employees to come from one age group, with one experience level or background. That’s why there will always be a ‘self-improver route’ for those who have not been successful in applying for sponsorship at the ab-initio or type rating level, e.g. the CTC ATP scheme.

I’m not connected directly, but a number of my ex-students have got onto the CTC scheme and are now working for jet airlines. It’s a great opportunity for those who can crack it. I’ve never heard anyone slag it that has succeeded in passing the selection. Most of the many who fail to get on it recognise its merits and only wish they had made it, but there are always those with chips on both shoulders.

[tailscrape]

fibod,

Spot on.


As for jmc approaching GECAT to run a similar course, who knows? One thing that is certain is that jmc have said publicly that they have a demographic problem in the airline. There are lots of pilots waiting for Command, and 50 too many Captains in the airline already.

Bear in mind, that the MOST JUNIOR co-pilot in jmc has 2 years service nearly and over 1000 hours on type...... and you start to get a picture. That means the most senior co-pilots have 6 or 7 years in the company and 4 or 5000 hours on type.

So, it would be attractive for jmc to recruit low hours people to be co-pilots for 10 years or more.

However, jmc first have to offer a dozen or so blokes their jobs back before they recruit again. People who took career breaks etc.....so, I would not get too excited about the prospects there for recruitment next year. After that though, I reckon wannabes may be in luck with them. As long as you can afford to work summer only contract work.

As for eJ, who knows again? Why would they take the training risk upon themselves? CTC does a good job for them. I doubt they will change that.

[Grivation]

fibod / tailscrape - you can't seriously be telling me that airlines use the CTC scheme because they want a premium product. They use CTC because 1. IT IS CHEAP and 2. It produces an acceptable product.

CTC is nothing more than an unsolicited self-sponsored type rating with a little screening thrown in. The screening is nothing different to what gets done during the normal airline recruitment process - it's just that CTC wannabes are now paying for their own interviews, testing, MCC, AQP and eventually (although not directly) a type rating. Another backward step for our profession!

fibod - as for your reasons why companies should be using the CTC scheme - that would have to be one of the largest loads of rubbish that I have ever read on this site.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

1. It is cheap. Well in the big scheme of airline recruiting the real issue is not cost - its getting the right candidate. Training failures cost a fortune in both cash and more importantly line trainers and sim trainers precious time. If the CTC can prove a competence in selecting people then thats hugely attractive to an airline. Who - after all - only otherwise have a handful of HR people and couple of frontline staff to use as a selection tool. Staff you have little training for this specialised and for them periphery task. If CTC can convince airline CP's that what they are really really good at is FO selection then that is the overiding selling point. Not saving a few quid.

2. See above. The CTC organisation I am sure can provide some pretty concrete figures showing the success rates of their graduates over a number of years.

A wider point is that airlines are becoming much leaner. In the past your BA's and Britannias and BM's had long established HR departments. They had lots of Admin support. The industry was also a smaller place. Perhaps a few hundred people chasing a job - not a few thousand as now.

Airlines could afford the time and personnel to run their own extensive and thorough selection. That is simply perhaps no longer the case. New airlines - and some older ones - are now much leaner than they were. Costs have been reduced. Which means large airlines might only have three or four HR people. Indeed everyone from the Chief Pilot down now has to be more productive. There is possibly less scope to divert off for a week or two in order to agonise and supervise an indepth selection amongst literally thousands of applicants.

What they might have time for is to set up a trusted third party to provide them with a shortlist. ala CTC. Nothing too new here as Parc and Storm aviation amongst many others have been doing this for a good few years.

If that trusted third party finds the best way to make their selection is the way CTC does it then who is to argue?

If there ever is a shortage of pilots in this country then - sure - the airlines would be placing full page ads in every newspaper. But as we know all to well, that just ain't the case.

Your point about this being an erosion of terms for the aspiring pilot is noted. As a counterbalance I would argue that 20 years ago unless your Dad was in BA you had little or no chance of getting into the RHS of a B757 with 210hrs.

Cheers

WWW

[Ray Ban]

WWW,

Have it on fairly good authority that some CTC cadets that have started base/line training with some of the low cost boys and IT airlines have needed extra training on top of what was scheduled and in some unfortuntate cases have been binned altogether! :eek:

[tailscrape]

Grivation,

You sound miffed. Something upsetting you?

RayBan,

There have been failures in the past in the sim and I believe beyond. However these are minimal and goes to prove the point why airlines use CTC.

It stops them having to fail people.

[Splat]

And to add,

I have it on good authority that one carrier is less than pleased and will not be using them again in the future.

S

[Grivation]

Don't get me wrong guys I have no problem with the quality of product that gets delivered by CTC. I haven't personally sat next to any of them but I'm sure they are all good operators. I also have no problem with companies using third party contractors to screen applicants.

What I do feel quite strongly about is the trend for us (as a pilot group) to pay for what should rightly be an employers expense!

[prob30]

Grivation,

When challenged you claim not to have a problem with current trends and young low houred guys trying to compete in a competitive market. Yet, when you make a post yourself you seem to have a bee in your flat cap which smacks of 'it wornt like that in my day, 27 hours a day down pit.....CTC?.. pah...noothin' better than daylight robbery woodnt catch a son of mine.....'

So taking your advice, fine we will go and instruct on £12K a year with a £6K investment or, considering the £60K+ debt we have knowingly got ourselves into, look for a better paid job. So we look for regional turbo props who need less pilots than jet operatora at the moment, and we stand to be paid less....however...we could INVEST £6K with CTC (subject to passing the grade etc) and off we go onto a course that fill the void left by a duff CAA ATPL sylabus and means an airline can lose a little less sleep at the thought of dishing out £20K on a type rating to a person who has had 20 hours on a twin.

In search of the highest paid job we can find to pay back the large loan, We could INVEST in a type rating (those evil words) but I would sugest only if you have a very good chance of employment at the end of it, a la Ryanair £18K gig when it was on offer, or Easy...or Astraeus or hopefully JMC.

I am sorry Grivation if it wasnt like this in the old days, but I will do what is
financailly best for my business plan (get out of debt quickest). I was self employed for 10 years and I know all about investing large sums of money to get ahead and I will not sit around and turn down oppertunities. My bank manager would be livid in any case, and it is downright stupidity.

And I will tell you something else, if the airline industry collapsed in another big way, I would argue that it will be the LCC's out there who keep going purely by keeping expenditure low...by us paying for type ratings is an insurance that goes some way to keeping a job should it all go pear shaped further...a sound business investment i would say.

And finally, the type rating is owned by YOU. You are not shelling out cash for no return. £18K is better spent on a type rating than charging about in a light single or a twin, as yer man from Emirates said along with others at the BALPA conference.

The airline industry may not be behaving the way it should be, but terrorists shouldnt be flying airliners in to buildings should they.

[Grivation]

Prob30 - What I said was that I have no problem with the QUALITY of product being produced ie. a competent driver.

I do have serious concerns, however, about what the recruitment road will look like in years to come and how schemes run by companies like CTC will affect us all.

You can wave the "it's an employer's market - I'm just making myself more employable - I'm trying to show how keen I am" flag as much as you want but you have to accept the fact that all you are doing is uping the ante in the airline's favour and making it more difficult for the people who come behind you. As someone recently said - there's a big difference between leaning forward and bending all the way over and there is certainly no excuse for providing the lubrication!

Conversation between Mr CTC and Mr BA about the possibility of BA entering into the CTC scheme for it's pilot recruitment -

Mr BA "So tell me about this CTC scheme"
Mr CTC "Well, we will select all of your new pilots for you. You'll pay for their type raings and then they will work for you for a year for next to nothing"
Mr BA "OK, I'm interested. What's in it for me?"
Mr CTC "We will do your recruiting for you. You have to pay for a type rating for them but you will easily recoup that money by not having to pay them for a year"
Mr BA "So I can get rid of my recruiting department?"
Mr CTC "Exactly"
Mr BA "How much will I have to pay?"
Mr CTC "Nothing"
Mr BA "Nothing!"
Mr CTC "That's right - the applicants will pay us to apply"
Mr BA "So what's in it for you?"
Mr CTC "Well, we will become your sole provider of pilots. People will be queing up to pay for over-priced training and selection with us."
Mr BA "So we will effectively pass all of the recruitment, training costs and training risks onto prospective pilots!"
Mr CTC "Exactly"
Mr BA "Exactly!"

[redsnail]

From what friends have told me CTC isn't an option if you are over 34.

[Grivation]

Thanks folks a good debate. Hopefully we've unearthed both sides of the argument.

For those that are still interested in the original topic - this is an abridged version of what was emailed to me recently. If you can't work out who the operator is yourself, email me and I will give you the details. No I don't work with/for and have never met them.

Quote :

A new breed of aircraft – single engine turbines – will shortly be permitted to undertake Public Transport flights in IMC, at night, and over water. In particular, the Cessna Caravan will become a very popular alternative to aircraft like the Cessna 406, Trislander, Bandeirante and Shorts 330. There will probably be about 20 – 30 Caravans on the UK fleet within 2 years.

At first, the PT operations will probably be limited to cargo work, and the CAA may be insisting on a multi crew operation. JAR 5.2.1 defines the crew experience requirements, and although the minimum hours for SE IFR is not stated (because it is not currently allowed) it appears likely that it will be 500 hours. There is no minimum experience requirement for co-pilots.

We will have a requirement of 3 pilots per aircraft, or 6 pilots per aircraft if the CAA insist on 2 crew operation. We anticipate that there will be UK employment opportunities for between 50 and 100 pilots of Caravans in the next 2 years, and there are virtually no rated pilots available at the moment.

The going rate for a class rating course on the Caravan including ground instruction, instructor fees and examiners fees is around £5,250 plus VAT. For a short time we are offering three day courses on our Caravan to suitable candidates for £3,900 plus VAT. There is a maximum of 4 students for each course.

For this you get:
Ground instruction - classroom and on the aircraft (mostly self study with assistance)
At least 4 hours of left hand seat flying under instruction.
Jump seat observation of other students as available.
One hour of flight test and a written examination.
Refreshments and lunchtime sandwiches.
All landing and navigational fees.
All instructors fees.
All examiners fees.
CAA licence fee (£100)
Copy of Cessna’s aircraft manual.

: End Quote

[Crosswind Limits]

Grivation,

Upon enquiry with said operator some time back the same email was sent to me.

[worzel]

As someone who gets more desperate for a job everyday I’m considering forking out some more of my hard earned cash on a type rating.

Now over the years a lot of people have paid different amounts of money for ratings, on various aircraft. The arguments for and against self sponsored type ratings have been around for ages and everybody has an opinion. So without going down the pros and cons avenue, for those of you who have paid for ratings, I’m curious, what did you do, who was it with, was it expensive, how long before you got the job…or are you still waiting and was it worth it?

Any info would be appreciated.

Cheers
worzel

[scroggs]

I won't go down the long road of pro or anti type-ratings arguments, but I will make a couple of observations that you can take for what they're worth.

I think you need to decide what it is you want from a type rating. If you just want, say, a 737 rating to proudly show off on your licence (unlikely, I know), then go for the cheapest option. There are plenty of FTOs that will give you a sim course and a tech exam and spit you out after a couple of weeks with a rating. However, when you turn up at Ryan, EZ, bmi or whoever and are asked to show your paces at a sim assessment, you're unlikely to be able to impress them with your effortless skill and easy familiarity with Boeing's finest! And you're even less likely to impress in the air....

Your best option (but inevitably most expensive) is to get a rating course that includes an element of base and line training, and that can only really come from an airline. I'm not aware of many offering anything like this, but I've discovered that Astraeus are about to offer something of this nature. Perhaps most significantly, they will interview potential students beforehand using a full airline selection procedure to ensure that you won't be wasting their time and your money. The training will include line training on their revenue flights. What I heard was very interesting and well worth following up - and will have serious credibility with other airlines in your subsequent job search. I'd give them a call.

[P.Pilcher]

I am quite sure that if you do a search on this subject on the board and read what many, many contributors have had to say about it you will be in a better position to make a decision. Like Scroggs, I'll say no more now, I think most of it has already been said.

Best of luck.

[The Potter]

Worzel, I know that it's difficult to find that first arline job but if I were you I wouldn't pay for any type rating. Let me give you a few examples of why not.

A colleague of mine paid out about £7,000 for a rating on an F27 in the spring of 2001; he had gone through the selection process of this particular airline. After successfully completeing the course he flew the aircraft, with the airline that carried out his training, for 18 months. This same airline has recently made ALL of it's pilot's redundant as it is changing over to the Fokker50, and guess what. The pilots can have their jobs back if they fork out once again for the F50 rating! Now he can't find another First Officer's job because he is not rated on the required aircraft. He is virtually back to square one but £7,000 worse off.

I myself work for a relatively small turbo prop operator. You would be amazed at the amount of cvs that we receive from people with various jet ratings, that they have paid for, yet searching for that first position on a turbo prop.

Scroggs talks about the Astraeus set up. Perhaps he wouldn't be so keen if there hadn't been a tie up for the initial setting up of training new F/Os with Pprune & in particular JM. Why on earth should anyone have to pay an employer to work for them? In any other industry/profession this would be a totally illegal practice. Without any airline employee the airline ceases to exist so please remember that it should be a mutual thing: they can't fly without the pilots!

Since sharks such as CTC, Ryanair and the above mentioned -We've Got Scots On Board, Scramble The RAF!! - have gone down the route of self funded F/O jobs, more and more airlines have started to do the same thing: even Aer Aran Express is now looking for 20,000 euros for an ATR rating. Do you want to contribute to this ethos? Because if people continue to pay for ratings then the already over crowded pond of "free" first jobs will get smaller and smaller, whilst even those with the cash will begin to find that they can't buy that first job anymore as competition has increased there also.

[scroggs]

I should mention - in view of The Potter's outburst - that I have nothing professionally whatsoever to do with CTC, EZ or Astraeus, all of which I've mentioned recently. Nor had I anything to do with the Pprune/Astraeus cadetship scheme. I do, however, have friends in these and other organisations, and I pass on the information purely to help you in your search for your first job. It's no skin off my nose whatever course you finally take!

Incidentally, the Astraeus scheme is being launched because there is a large commercial demand for type ratings, both from individuals and other operators. They have decided that they will not just take the money but, to protect their reputation, they will go through the procedure I outlined above. They are aware that line training may be seen as 'paying to fly', and will explain in detail where the balance lies in the costs incurred and the benefits achieved by both the airline and the individual. There is no suggestion of paying for jobs; this is purely a type rating and training package.

Anyway, at the end of the day you have to deal with the world as it is rather than how you would like it to be. When you're running one of these companies, then you can decide how you operate your recruiting.

Lastly, Potter, if you have a comment to make about Astraeus' handling of the unpleasant incident on their aircraft the other night, make it openly and in the correct forum.

[BANGHER]

Worzel,

If you can afford a type rating, as Scroggs suggests, one that includes an element of line training is best, and apart from the Astraeus route, there isn't much option.
These American jobs are all a load of bull and not a simple as they make out, with FAA issues.

Edited to remove unnecessarily insulting language about another Ppruner

Scroggs

[worzel]

Thanks to those who have given positive responses and scroggs for the info on Astraeus.

I did do a search before I made this posting. The wannabes forum appears to be one of the busiest on pprune, and I’ve noticed that the same subjects do come up time and again. My search came back with approx 500 results. Having started reading through these (not all of them I confess), I came across a lot of posts arguing over the pros and cons of self sponsored ratings and the odd rant about how they are bad for the industry, but none specifically on the area I’m interested in. I agree with many of the points bought up on previous discussions, which is why I said in my original post ‘without going down the pros and cons avenue’.

I’m specifically looking for information from people who have paid for ratings themselves. I would like to know how their careers were affected following these ratings, did they get jobs, or are they still looking, would THEY recommend doing a rating and if so, on what. Perhaps I’m in the wrong place, as those who have gained a position are probably not scanning through the wannabes forum anymore, but it seems as good a place as any to start.

The same subjects do come up time and again on this forum and I apologise if any of this has come up before, but if your willing to offer any constructive advice, I and many other desperate wannabes are listening.

worzel

[foghorn]

Well put worzel. I'm in a very similar position to yourself.

As was put very succinctly by Hamrah at the wannabes seminar on Friday, in the current economic environment, no airline wants to type-rate a new hire if it can get away with it. It is simply too risky for them to splash out £20,000+ on someone who may struggle or even fail. That is why the likes of Ryanair and Easyjet are hoovering up the supply of already-rated pilots, whereas the bottom-feeding TP companies are insisting that you buy a Shed/F27 rating before you get a look in. This will change over time with market forces as the outlook improves, however currently it is the case.

So what do you do? Sit waiting watching your skills go off the boil, pursue the instructing route to hours to find that there are few vacancies in that area anyway and the hours gained don't necessarily improve your chances with an airline, or buy a type rating which might turn out to be an almighty gamble, or might just get your foot in the door of an airline.

It's a very tough call to make. However you seem, as I am trying to do, to be considering all eventualities, so more power to you, mate.

[Dennisb]

In Spain AeroMadrid has installed a FFS Level D of Airbus 320 and they are going to offer Type Rating including Base Training for over 21.000 Euros (to be confirmed)

As far as I know - I am thinking to do this - there is a queue list of people waiting for the final approval as TRTO (begining of 2003).

I have not found other option for Type Rating.

Dennisb

[Crosswind Limits]

In principle I am against self-sponsored type ratings. Having said that I fully understand the situation for desperate wannabes. I have been searching for that first job since September and whilst I am not totally desperate yet, that day may one day come.

I am about to embark on the flight instructor route, in the hope that this will be a step in the right direction. This is more expense but I see no real alternative. If I had the hours I would probably apply for the EasyJet scheme but with factoring I am well short. Catch 22 really, I have to speculate to accumulate!

[HARRY GREYHOUND]

Worzel , sent you a private message hope it helps

[scroggs]

Worzel

A point I should have made earlier - most of those Ppruners who've obtained a job shift their focus from Wannabes to other forums. You might like to post this question in Terms and Endearments or Questions to get the feedback from those who've succeeded.

Obviously, those who haven't (yet) will still be here!

[worzel]

HARRY

Thanks for the message, I've sent you a reply.

Thanks scroggs. This question is now also in Terms and Endearment.

worzel

[cleared24right]

Paying for a type ratng is sheer madness, is if we haven't forked out enough already! As soon as airlines pick up on others doing this then everyone will be paying for there own. Its the people who decide to do this that push the others down and make it harder than it all ready is.

As for airlines making you pay to get experience, thats just a big p*** take if you ask me, it needs putting an end to fast before it gets out of hand. If no-one paid for thier rating without a job guarantee the airlines woul be up s*** creek!

I'm sure they'll be laughing at YOU all the way to the bank!!!!!!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[prob30]

no - actually we are laughing at you... You tell me how we make the world it should be and lets do it.. untill then you have to take what is on offer

[Kefuddle_UK]

Worzel,

There was an interesting post from somebody who had 1500 hour turboprob time and who lost out to his 200hr girlfriend who offered to pay for her own B737 TR. My interpretation was there is definately a market for very Junior F/Os who are willing to save the employer a considerable sum in gaining their employment. Maybe worth searching that one out again.


***************



Well put Prob30.

There is a very elegant and natural load-balancing process in action right now. Whilst the market is reeling from the recent depression, the low income from fares has pushed the cost to those whose services are least in demand and who would benefit most, namely the wannabes. When, the proverbial big heavy compressor fan starts to spool up, then the costs will be swung back to those who benefit the most from standing the training costs, namely the employers.

There is no point moaning about how much profit x, y and z have made recently. Anything tied to econmonics posses a huge amount of latent inertia. Yes the profits are comming back in, currently taking up the slack in the market. When that reserve is used then see just how the employers attitudes change. Could take a while though.

[foghorn]

As a comparison to the Astraeus assessment - type rating - line experience course, JAC are offering something similar.

The key thing here (in theory) being that they will give you an honest assessment of your ability before you embark on the type rating so that you are not wasting your money.

[worzel]

Foggy

Do you know anything about JAC. Having only just heard of them I've had a look at their website, theres not really a lot of info on there and no all important prices. I did a quick search and interestingly on another post Hamrah saidWe at Astraeus have been approached by the JAC academy to provide their 737 courses and line training. To me that would suggest paying extra cash to a third party, to provide you with the Astraeus product, perhaps with some extra tinsel.

worzel

[foghorn]

I wasn't aware of that I'd just seen JAC's web site like you - might as well go via Astraeus rather than through a middle man then.

[worzel]

Foghorn

I just tried to send you a message but couldn't as your mailbox is full.

worzel

[foghorn]

sorted now,

foggy.

[aardvark keeper]

I went the FI route 3 1/2 years ago & now have an ATPL 2150 hrs tt with just 35 twin, with 16 months of applying and not a snifter. I'm pretty desperate now and dont agree with buying a type rating. I cant afford one any way, or CTC etc.

I do feel that there are far too many 'pull up the ladder-ers', just like FI's who shafted us years ago and worked for nowt!

Sadly they seem to be fast tracking which will only encourage this lunacy.

[Go-Around]

Is there an official union view on this?
Has BALPA/IALPA etc offered any guidance or reccomendations on self sponsored type ratings?
Personally I think that type ratings are a justifiable training cost that the airlines should absorb, not the pilots.
If we all got our act together and refused to pay then the airlines wouldn't have a choice. This of course will never happen, there will always be someone desperate enough to work for free/pay for a type rating etc.
Is there any real solution?

[aardvark keeper]

Apparently the airlines used to pay for IR's, until one bright spark changed that.

The desperation to get one up on the guy sat next to you will always be the case, but this type rating issue is only contributing to future events down the line.

Sounds mad but we could end up paying for our own over night room rate & taxis!

[RVR800]

Buzz, the Stansted-based low-cost airline, is to cut 12 routes, reduce its fleet and make up to 400 workers redundant, its new owner has said.
Ryanair, which in January agreed to buy Buzz from Dutch carrier KLM, also confirmed that all Buzz flights would be grounded "for the month of April 2003, at least".

It said the restructuring plans would be presented to staff and creditors over the next few days after which a final decision would be taken on whether to restart some flights on 1 May.

Ryanair said Buzz's financial position was "extremely precarious", and that the airline was losing more than 1m euros (£683,000) a week.

Workforce slashed

Ryanair announced the cuts as part of what it called a "major restructuring" of the loss-making airline.

BUZZ ROUTES CANCELLED
Charles de Gaulle
Dijon
Amsterdam
Marseille
Toulon
Tours
Bergerac
Caen
Geneva
Chambery
Brest
Almeira

It said it would reduce the number of aircraft from 12 to eight and aim to halve the price of current Buzz flights.

The 400 job cuts also proposed represent two-thirds of Buzz's current workforce.

Ryanair said move would mean redundancy for 20% of pilots, 80% of Buzz's current cabin crew and all its cargo and group sales staff.

The 200 remaining staff would be offered increased pay and productivity allowances, said Buzz's new owner.

Re-booking

It added that passengers booked on Buzz flights during April would be offered a full refund and then able to book new flights from 12 March.

The Buzz routes to be terminated include Paris Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam and Almeira.

[kabz]

Wow, look at all those routes ... Maybe this is the time to lease a few 1900s and start an airline ;-)

[Meeb]

No thanks kabz, we need UK registered airlines offering UK residents jobs, not wet lease foreign nonsense...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Indeed an important development. I was suprised nobody picked up on this before.

I know that easyJet recruiting staff were in Stansted on the day of this announcement looking to hire crew.

This development potentially puts hundreds of pilots into the queue containing Joe Wannabe. They join at the head and not the back of the queue...

Just pray a major airline doesn't go to the wall over the coming months. Gulf War 1 took Air Europe and Dan Air over the edge during a period of recession. As I hear it holiday bookings are 14% down on last year, Germany and Japan are dragging us all into a proper recession and Brent Crude whistled past $35 a barrel. House prices are on the slide, they have to have tanks at Heathrow and the Chancellor is slapping extra tax on tickets.

The wheels could come off all this very easily. :(

WWW

[Tosh McCaber]

Why would FOL purchase an airline which is "losing more than 1 million Euros/ week"???

[Cricketer]

Will Scabair not just force the crews made redundant onto the ryanair books as they are still looking for crews? I suppose they will have to endure a massive pay cut and loss of all seniority and rights.

[Happy Landings]

As a Wannabe starting out you are looking at the most cost effective way of becoming a pilot.

Obviously, sponsorship is the first port of call.

Brittania - £15k + PPL prefered = £20k approx (6 - 10 places)
Easy Jet / JMC - £60k begining to end (more place's about 40 ish?)

OK so maybe 80 people will get sponsorship per year, but what if you're self sponsored. Say for example you manage to get hold of £50k and get your ATPL and do some instructor work and even manage to get your 1000 hours - what next??

To get onto a jet you need a Type Rating - now Easyjet offer sponsorship for that with a £23k bond. So now your an airline pilot, it's cost nearly £75k plus living expenses, food, medical, re-tests etc etc. Just to finish off lets add interest onto your bond at least another £15k.

Its now cost £90k to become a pilot (please take this as a very rough calculation), my question is how much is the true cost of becoming a pilot in 2003? All the flight schools tell you about getting your (f)ATPL but what next and at what cost! Is there any other proffession where you have to pay so much to just get started out!

Would be interested in anyones comments, especially if you've already got to about 1000 hours!

Scroggs do you have any words of wisdom on the next stage after (f)ATPL?

HL
:confused:

[abracadabra]

1. Get your fATPL
2. Get a job, earn some money
3. Meanwhile, keep flying
4. Pray the world becomes a more stable place in the next few months so that more people start spending money, boosting the economy, and pray that these people start doing a lot more flying.
5. The airlines will run out of type-rated pilots to hire.
6. Their requirements will be slashed.
7. You might get an interview IF you've kept current and in-touch with everything.

Sounds easy right? Well that's all it takes. £45k or thereabouts to fund your training in the UK. When you're done, be sensible, live cheaply, fly cheaply. It will take a while for numbers 4-7 to happen, but they will.

Yes, it probably does cost 90k to become an airline pilot, but most of that should be forked out by the airline. This subject has been done to death, but do not pay for a type rating unless you have a job set in stone at the end of it.

If you want you can go for the FI rating, but too many people have gone down that road recently to give you a good shot at employment. Once things really start to pick up, and if you don't get that interview, the FI-thing will still be an option.

All newly-qualified pilots are completely dependent on one thing: Airline passengers. Once they start buying tickets in numbers, jobs start to spring up right the way through the industry.

Let's hope it happens sooner rather than later..

abracadabra

[extrakt]

Just take it easy, work for your depts and keep on flying.
FI is a smart thing to do, it´s fun and you become a better pilot doing it while you wait for a job.

[witchdoctor]

HL

Don't forget to factor in loss of earnings, say for 2 years.

[Hans-Uhlrich]

wITCHDOCTOR

Exactly right, add on loss of earnings and the true cost soars.
I feel sorry for a lot of the young lads sucked into perhaps what they see as the romance and idealism of a life in aviation, after catching the flying bug.

Unfortunately many severely miscalculate the true cost not just in financial terms in some cases.

[Happy Landings]

In response to my own question - I see Cathy Pacific are looking for direct entry second officers with 1000 hours and ATPL, see the back of Flight International this week and good luck to you if thats you!

HL

[number]

Hi!

I would strongly recommend you not to get involved with Eagle jet.
Once there will be a problem with your airline/carrier you fly for, they will not back you up in any way!!They just want your money and thats it,thats why I had to take legal action for my own because Eagle did not want to help me!so I would try another company for F/O programs if I was you

Good luck!

Stefan

To: [email protected]
Subject: eagle jet
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 23:56:25 +0000

Hi Stefan,

I don't know if I got the right person. However, did you start a civil action against Eagle Jet international?
I'm asking you because I'm a commercial pilot who wanted to start a training with them, but then I got some news through a market information company telling me that Eagle Jet has been sued several times.
May I ask you which kind of problems did you have with Ealge Jet?
Thank you,
Ron

[FatFlyer]

I have no personal experience of Eaglejet, so perhaps I should not comment but it might be worth searching through previous posts about them before giving them a lot of money.
Some people seem unhappy with the deal they recieve from them.

[PetPilot]

Ello Peeps

Was looking about going out to the USA to do a 737 or a Turbo Prop Type Rating at Pan AM.

Was told however, that it is NOT JAR approved, only FAA. The prices are great compared to the UK

Has any body got any info about converting it to a JAA Type Rating on my return to the UK?

PP

[BillieBob]

To get a JAA type rating in North America, you must complete an approved course at an approved TRTO. The TRTOs approved by the UK CAA ar listed on their website along with the types that they offer. Interestingly, Active Aerospace is not listed so I would be very careful about accepting Panama Jack's advice. You cannot simply do a FAA (or TC) course and get a JAA checkride at the end unless it is approved by a JAA country

If you get a FAA (or TC) type rating, you will need to build 500 hours flight experience on the type before it can be transferred to a JAA licence. You must then pass a Proficiency Check on the type with a JAA authorised TRE.

If you have some operating experience on the type, but less than 500 hours, you will have to complete a course of training at an approved TRTO (but the CAA may allow a reduction from the full course to take account of your experience) and pass the written exam and Skill Test.

It's all in LASORS Section F9

[captain_crochet]

Hi everyone,

I am done with CPL / IR / MCC and 300 flight hours. Now the next step is the Type Rating.

What is the best Type Rating to get ?
What are the best schools to get it ?
What are the best prices ?

Are there some schools having links with companies so that it is possible to be presented to them easily ?

I hope I'll get lots of answers as it will probably help many of us.

THANKS :ok:

[Flypuppy]

A little bit of searching will find your answer.

Don't pay for a type rating (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96870)
Don't pay for a type rating (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95329)
Don't pay for a type rating (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92887&highlight=buy+a+type+rating)

Did I mention you shouldn't buy a type rating? You may find it not much help unless you have some line flying to add to the "bare bones" rating.

Why do people now seem to think the next step is the Type Rating

Why is no-one trying to look after our interests? Why am I wasting my breath? :confused: :{

[number]

eagle jet doesn't want to give any contact of pilots who did the FO program with them, they don't even give you the name of the airline companies in which you are supposed to do the line training... they want your 50000$ without giving any references.
Something stinks here...

[A320]

Hello everyone,

How many possibilities would a pilot have with 1000 hrs including 300 turboprop to be hire by an airline that operates with ATR72 if he gets an ATR42/72 type rating including base check?

Many thanks

[chapmdav]

Hi,

Does anyone know what the deal is with picking up a US type rating? Can it be put on a JAA licence and if so how is it done?

Also word to the wise on the friendly people at the only bank who'll lend cash to trainee pilots - they're not as good as you'd like to believe. Unfortunately due to the lack of competition they enjoy customer service is not always top of their list of priorities. I'm incredibly grateful to them for providing the funds but it hasn't been the straight forward process we all hope it may be. Their list of stunts included:

1. Assuring me I could have my loan before telling me three weeks before course start date (by which point I'd paid a deposit and quit work) that they had changed their mind.

2. Screwing up the critical illness and death cover for the loan resulting in me being uncovered for two months - not so much a problem for me but family left behind wouldn't have seen the funny side of owing £20000.

3. Failing to make the payments to my FTO as and when they were requested to do so - resulting in Admin ladies dragging me into offices for explanations etc. Constantly calling the UK does make doing the ground school a bit more tricky.

To their credit though they are offering unsecured loans of £65000 or there abouts to those students deciding to do an intergrated course at what was formally BAE Systems available from the Chiswick branch for those interested.

Any gen on the type rting would be appreciated - can't find it in LASORS.

Cheers

[redsnail]

For the rating to be put on your JAA licence you'll need to have been checked by someone with JAR approval. If you haven't had that, you'll need a minimum of 500 hours on type for the (eg) CAA to recognise it.
(Gleaned from personal experience)

[rmmonteiro]

hi all mates, been thinking of geting a A320 type rating but the money is short, so could anyone of you guive me some informations ( maby some of you did the TR) about where can i go to do it, the costs involved , the time it will take, and any other infos you think are helpfull. just for me to see if i can continue dreaming or i should guive up the type rating idea.

thanks all

cheers

RMM

[AlphaGolfLima]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=82255&highlight=typerating+and+a320
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=89137&highlight=typerating+and+a320
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=109426&highlight=typerating+and+a320
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=72538&highlight=typerating+and+a320
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=97861&highlight=A320+AND+typerating

good luck

regs

AGL

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

If the money is short, why not try ( to bluild your hours and experience ) something else instead of jumping straight away onto a Type Rating? Which wont give you a job anyway and dont forget you have to keep the A320 rating current.

Flight Instruction would be a good investment.

[rmmonteiro]

been doing a research on the web , and found jetwayaero, does anyone know enything about them, are they good, the price of the A320 type rate, it would be helpfull. sended them an Email but got no answer.

cheers

RMM

[peb]

For A320 the place that I know is Aeromadrid (Spain). They do the base training with LTE and Iberworld. I think that is around 31.000 Euros.

[M.85]

mmontero,
I believe a certain Mr DAVID KACI is in with jetwayaero.Hes a big scam and I sued his ass off during 4 years.He lost a bunch of feathers but apparently went on with jetway.
just check if hes in there and if yes DONT go there.
Good luck

M.85

[Cptjimbo]

I'm 42 and a concidering doing a type rating. What should I go for? B737 A300 Learjet Citation? Can anyone advice what to do to move things on. At my age this may be my only chance to get a job before i'm too old..

[bluesafrica]

For sure it must be B737NG!
Blues

[Cptjimbo]

Why? and do you have a suggestionm where to do it?

[AIRWAY]

I dont see many 737NG in "Europe"( Maybe im getting blind ). But i do see heaps of Airbuses.


B737 A300 Learjet Citation?

If what you mentioned above is your only options, then the B737 would be the better choice.

[trainer too 2]

Reading your list of Type ratings it looks like you are going to Falcon in the states. Is that a correct assumption?

[Cptjimbo]

I am not limited to these types but a friend of mine has just completed an A300 rating hoping to find work and I'm wondering if this is a good move or to fly another type if it gives a better chance to get a post. I am keeping an eye on his progress. I would concider corporate jets, regional jets anything, but I need to get good advice on where to train and reasoned advice on why one type is better than another.

Nobody has been kind enough yet to say I'm not old at 42. Great!

[AIRWAY]

A300

Is there many A300 job opportunities around? In my general opinion i dont thing so, but i might be wrong :rolleyes:

If you are willing to go the route of a type rsting then you must choose one according to your objective, if you are going corporate there is no need for an Airbus or Boeing type rating, if you want to go the the airlines then either an Airbus or Boeing TR would be suitable.

[tom24]

The sensible money has got to be on 73NG/319/320. What with EZY and Ryanair purchasing heaps of them and those are the sort of companies you may well expect to land your first job.

You're not old, but age is not on your side either (is it for anybody over 21?!). You may be better placed going for a turbo rating from which your realistic chances of gaining employment compared to a jet job will probably be greater. From there you can build your hours to a few thousand and then be well placed for jet employment by the time you're 45!

[Sally Cinnamon]

Why not complete all four ratings ?

It would probably be a better idea to complete all four ratings to increase your options rather than just limiting yourself to a 737 for example. You made need to check with the CAA though, I think there may be a limit to the amount of multi crew types you can have on your licence at any one time.

[Cptjimbo]

I think 737 or A319, A320 is probably right but where to go for the best value? Has anyone done one recently at their own expense who can give some good advice?:ok:

[kebab kid]

i like Sally Cinnamons idea - genius!
why not do a type rating for every aeroplane and keep your options open? or maybe you could buy your own airline??
Sally, i had a look at your profile sweetheart.....you'd have to do a lot of lap-dancing to pay for 4 type ratings!!

A320 is fairly prolific, perhaps you could get some stats on how many of each type are around to help you make the right decision - CAA? EASA? BALPA? (but apply some judgment also). good luck whatever you do mate!

cheers kk

[Cptjimbo]

Good Idea KK,
I will get started on the stats and look at Airline fleet requirements for the foreseeable future.
Mind you who can tell the future (9/11-SARS-terrorism etc etc)

Thanks Mate.
Jimbo

[Splat]

Cptjimbo,

Sent you a PM.

Splat

[FiremanSam]

This subject has been covered before, and before anyway says ¡§do a search¡¨ ¡V I have!

I¡¦m only looking for actual facts (or directions to were I can obtain ACTUAL FACTS) - not all the negatives/positives or abuse/bitching that these posts tend to generate.

Ok now that¡¦s out of the way I hope this will be a useful post for me as well as all the other people asking the same question.

Type Ratings (Again)¡K.

I¡¦m very seriously considering getting a rating in a 737 (if my bank manager is having a good day that is).

Just for info:
I¡¦ve applied to places such as Ryanair (through their schools) but no response as of yet. If you didn¡¦t already know the Application form for CAE/GECAT is very very basic with no real useful info for the school to see if you¡¦re a good pilot or a bad pilot or what. I know that one guy I trained with has a selection day with GECAT, but he struggled with the course and needed extra time and had to redo the ME test IR. I (and many others) had no problems what-so-ever and haven¡¦t been given the chance with Ryanair ¡V So it seems it¡¦s just luck whether or not you get an invite for selection. Correct me if I¡¦m wrong.

Right now for the Questions ¡V and hopefully some answers (or constructive advice).

CAE, Global Aviation Solutions, Astraeus (without selection through GAS). These are 3 I¡¦m thinking about. But that¡¦s only because I can¡¦t find any others. GECAT don¡¦t want my money ¡V busy with the airlines I think, and the rest are in the USA.

Anyone been through these TRTOs? Any job offer¡¦s after you have the words ¡§737 Type Rated¡¨ on your CV?

What pre-study is required or of help (i.e. any good books or websites etc)? I spoke to CAE and they said it¡¦s not needed. But it¡¦s a lot of money and I want to make sure that I do everything to get the most out of it. Don¡¦t want it to be too much of a ¡§crash course¡¨. (Sorry about that)

Would Ryanair have preference for CAE Type Rated pilots rather than Astraeus (with 100hrs on type) ¡V I know that they will obviously take on the selected guys first (when it comes to just the basic rating at CAE or Astraeus ) but if I did fork out yet more cash for 100hrs (or even 2,3,4 or 500 hrs) would that better the chances?

GAS ¡V the assessment, what is involved? Sim check, psychometric, verbal, maths, sewing what..?? Also CAE and Astraeus ¡V what¡¦s there assessment tests like?
Any ideas for preparation? Anyone know any places for cheap time in FNPT2s? (I¡¦m in Reading, near London).

Do you need to have a BASE CHECK before the have an actual rating? What companies do this? For example, could I go to BA and ask if I could borrow a 737 for an hour? (Maybe 2 hours, for a bit of fun ļ )

Anyone reading this already have a Type Rating but with no job? How many hours do you have? Where/when did you get the rating? Etc

Thanks for any help.

Sam

[Zair]

G'day,

Just wondering if someone can tell me a bit more about getting a JAA typerating such as the 767? I currently hold a UK JAA SEP IR and would like to know if it is necessary to have a JAA multi rating? Is it possible to get away with just holding an ICAO multirating? How hard is it to organise to do the multirating at the same time as doing lets say a 767 rating?

Look forward to reading your replies.

Cheers.

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Zair

I know that if you want to do a type rating on a multi crew aircraft such as the 767 you will require an MCC certificate.
Now to do the MCC course on a multi engine/ multi crew aircraft the training provider will require you to have a current multi/ir on your licence.
Not sure if this has all changed but this was my experience.

Regards

[BillieBob]

Pre-requisite conditions for training for a multi-pilot type rating are given at JAR-FCL 1.250. Paragraph (a)(2) states "have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A)". JAR-FCL 1.005(a)(2) states "Whenever licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates are mentioned in JAR–FCL, these are meant to be licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates issued in accordance with JAR–FCL."

Therefore, you must hold a multi-engine IR(A) issued in accordance with JAR-FCL before commencing training for a multi-pilot type rating. An ICAO IR will not do and you cannot do the JAA IR at the same time as the MPA type rating.

[Global Pilot]

Billiebob is correct in stating that a current MIR is q requirement to commence a type rating for a multi crew a/c. Interestingly it doesn't have to be current till the end of the typr course in that it can expire after the commencement of the course.

Fuelxfeed, not sure if MCC is required to commence type course as many TRTOs offer MCC included with type??

rgds,

GP.

[traffic jam]

I am trying to find out where I can do an embraer 135/145 type rating course but it is proving difficult. Can anyone help?

[pstevens1]

Well, a quick online search turned up SimCenter in FL, not sure if you want an FAA type. Even if you do, if you look at the price (nearly TWENTY thousand dollars) you'll probably decide against it. A different website in the same search said that they were one of only two schools offering the EMB 145 ratings. Hope you have better luck in Europe.

[Cirius]

FlightSafety do the 135/145 Type rating - you can do it at LeBourget in Paris if you do not wish to travel to the USA.

[Voeni]

Swiss Aviation Training offers type-rating courses on the E145, starts twice a year. Check out their website.

BTW They also offer E170 TR "on request"... guess, they don't need the sim for themselves for a while...

[BillieBob]

TJ - Assuming from your location that you want a JAA type rating then your options (according to the latest information on the JAA website) are:

Luxair
Swiss International
BA City Express
BMI Regional

These are the only organisations to hold JAA approval for the 145, Flight Safety can only train for FAA type ratings at present.

[huittan]

Greetings folk!

Wondering if anyone has any ideas on the most cost-effective (read CHEAPEST :O !) JAA MPA type rating available. I am needing my unfreeze my UK ATPL; I have >1500hrs TT, with >1000hrs multicrew ops on SPA, so am exempt MCC but still need the bleedin' MPA rating to get the JAA ATPL issued!

And of course, can't be PIC on commercial multicrew JAR OPS even on SPA without ATPL, so it's catch-22!

Anyway, looking to do the cheapest MPA rating available. Any ideas much appreciated!

Thanks and regards,

HT

[Jetgate]

Vaguely remember hearing a couple of years ago that a reasonably priced one to do would be on a Shorts Skyvan....???? Don't know where or with whom but perhaps you could check with registered UK operators of the type.....

[c152pilot]

Hi,

With a frozen ATPL, what can i expect to get paid with an airline like Easyjet or Ryanair, and if i had some real luck, what could i expect BA to pay

Thanks

C152pilot (well, at the moment)

[scroggs]

This question should be in Terms and Endearments. You will not be employed by BA until you are experienced (c2500 hours on commercial jets) as things stand right now. Ryan and Easy's starting pay for qualified first officers is approximately 45k pa. First officers who are in their early years of employment and paying off bonds/training will be on somewhat less. All this information can be found on www.ppjn.com

[c152pilot]

Thanks, but do you think a type rating would be a good idea or should i get an IF rating and build up my hours??

thanks

c152pilot

[IRISHPILOT]

Hi Huittan,

look into going abroad. - Check out countries like Czech or I think Slovenia is a full JAR member country. Did my first MPA in Czech, IAA had no problem with it. I cannot help you finding the real cheap ones, but I do know there is a L410 TRTO. Also, why not go up for 10 hours in the AN2, should be best craic ever! It is a few kilos over 5700, and even though ist's SEP, it's a MPA!

If you find out more about the Antonov, let me know and I might join you!

IP

[IRRenewal]

Huittan,

Just had a look in LASORS, section G, and as fas as I can tell you should be able to apply for your ATPL now. No MPA type rating required.

Basically, you need:
1500 hours (which you have)

500 hours multi pilot operations in either JAR/FAR-25, JAR/FAR-23, OR 'single pilot aeroplanes operated by 2 pilots according to operational requirements'.

Various P.1, X-Country and Night requirements


LASORS can be downloaded from the CAA website, or order a copy (it is only £10 and a very convenient reference manual to have).

Regards

Gerard

[Lasiorhinus]

Umm... you fly a C152 now, and want a type rating for a 737??

[Jetdriver]

Your initial question made this a terms and endearment topic, but it seems it is really a wannabee issue. I am moving it to that forum for you.

[IRISHWINGS]

Irishpilot when are you going to stop spending money!!! All is good on the rock , talk to you soon.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi C152pilot,

You require a PPL (which I assume you do) and build up your hours to 150 hours total time (100 P1). During this time study for and pass the 14 ATPL Written Examinations.

After they are complete you can undergo the JAA CPL Flight Training course and Skills Test. Once you have your JAA CPL go and do your JAA IR course.

This will give you a JAA CPL/IR with ATPL Subjects Passed which some (if not most) people call a frozen ATPL which doesn't really exist.

You will probably require a MCC course certificate as well before an airline will employ you.

So once you have that lot you can apply to the airlines for your first position.

If you don't get any success you may decide to go and pay for your own Type Rating training. Again I don't like the term "buy a type rating" as you're not buying but paying your way through the training - you could still fail the training (either the ground exams or skills tests)!!!

So the answer to your question, "should i get an IF rating and build up my hours" is yes you have to go and obtain an Instrument Rating (not IMC) and a Commercial Pilots Licence before an airline will even look at you.

All the best.

Charlie Zulu

PS: Apologies if I have come across a little sharp, I'm very tired after a 12 hour working night, off to sleep in half an hour, wow!

[Great Circle]

Hello all,

I am interested to know which route it the most cost effective. TRTO's usuially have better prices in the US but what is involved in converting an FAA Rating to JAA? Is it another checkride with an inspector in the sim or ?????

Much appreciate the advice.

GC

[BillieBob]

JAR-FCL 1.240(a)(6) -

A valid type rating contained in a licence issued by a non-JAA State may be transferred to a JAR-FCL licence, subject to the appropriate proficiency check, provided the applicant is in current flying practice and has not less than 500 hours flying experience as a pilot on that type, provided JAR-FCL 1.250, [1.251,] 1.255 or 1.260 as applicable, are met.

This is interpreted by the UK (LASORS Sect F9.1) as -

A type/class rating contained in a licence issued by a non-JAA State may be transferred to a UK issued pilot’s licence, subject to:-
i) 500 hours flying experience as pilot on type, operating as P1 or P2 appropriate to the rating required (PUT time may not be counted).
ii) Operational experience as pilot on type within the preceding 5 years.
iii) Pass a Proficiency Check on type.
iv) Have met the requirements of JAR-FCL 1.250/2.250 as applicable, including knowledge of aeroplane performance appropriate to that type (please refer to Section F4 - Knowledge of Aeroplane Performance).
Note: No take-offs and landings required in aircraft as already type rated.
Applicants who hold a valid type rating but do not meet the experience requirements above will be required to complete a course of training at an approved TRTO. The CAA may consider a reduction in the amount of training required to take account of
previous experience on type, subject to a recommendation in writing by the Head of Training. Applicants will be required to pass the written theoretical knowledge examination and a Skill Test.

My guess would be that, unless you meet the 500 hours on type requirement, it will end up more expensive to take the US route as you will have to complete some/most of the type-rating course again at a JAA-approved TRTO

[Great Circle]

BillieBob,

Thanks so much for the direction and insight you provided!! I will not bark up this tree any longer!! I will be looking into JAA-approved TRTO's now. I heard that SAS Flight Academy is good but expensive, any others come to mind for the A320??

Cheers,

GC

[MystiCKal]

I know that many of today's job vacancies, if not all, are searching for people who have certain type ratings. Is it a neccessity for a type rating or is it possible to find a job without one for a person who has an ATPL with 1000+ TT hours? How about in 2-5 years? Will airlines be looking for ab-initio pilots?

[Gillespie]

I'm not sure what other peoples views are on this, but I would definately advise against paying for you own TR. The reasons why I think this are two fold;

Frstly, from what I've picked up, employers don't look favourably on potiential first-officers that have payed for their own TR and don't posses any line experience.

Secondly, TR's are massively expensive and say you complete a TR on a 737 (seems to be the most popular at the mo) then you've totally norrowed your target market. Who knows where the industry might be in 5 years time?? will the low cost airline industry continue to expand at such a rate? or begin to die out as scheduled operators compete for passengers.

[208inICE]

all the jobs i find on the net require a type rating (e.g. 320/737) and 500 hrs on type.

How can someone get the 500 on type? It's easy buying a type rating, but how about the time?

[KADS]

Find a real airline, who value you (us) as professionals and don't require YOU to pay for the training THEY should supply.

Think about this: Should no one pay ratings themselves, then the airlines would have no choice.

eg. How many medical doctors do you know of who pay for training on the latest medical hi tech equipment? NONE!

It is WRONG to pay for your own ratings!!!

(I know it is an utopia, but it just angers me that airlines (some) are such Pirahnas)

Your question is valid though, and I have no good answer.

Pray for better times and a lack of trained professionals...

Good luck! :ok:

[Easy Glider]

At last !!!! Someone else on this forum who understands how damaging it is for the whole industry and everyone in it when people prostitute themselvs by paying for type ratings and work for nothing.

[Dani]

Just to answer your question: There are also airlines who allow you to pay for your 500 hrs. By asking for a bond, giving you nearly no pay, or simply by letting you pay per sector (Germania did that on 737).
But this doesn't change the fact that you are abused by the employer.

[Rollerboy]

KADS and E G you are both spot on I agree with everything you have to say. As far as I am concerned paying for your own type rating with no hope of a job DEVALUES pilots in the eyes of the 'bean counters', they see another way to CUT COSTS.

Then to go on to work for free or even PAY THEM is disgraceful. If one airline is getting away with this practice eventually others will follow. The upshot of this is wages in all airlines will fall in an attempt to further cut costs.

Wake up bean counters getting rid of all the ground based middlemanagers and youselves will save a fortune! Money better spent on ratings.

Anyone for bean counter hunting?:ok:

[flaps to 60]

208

Try one of eagle jets programmes in Miami

They have rating from a Beech 99 up to B737/757,A320/300 It can be quite costly up to $55,000 but for that you get up to 500hrs on type.

As for prostituting yourself as others may suggest i say go for it as if your desperate to fly and there is no other way then what choice do you have.

In the ideal utopia an airline would pay for all your training costs like mine did. But get real and be aware that in this market it just aint gonna happen that easily and anyone who criticises you for it ask them if they were in you position would they hang around waiting for that job that may never happen because the market is saturated with experienced people.

It's easy to pontificate from 33,000ft about those who are only trying to get to the same spot to enjoy what we experience every day.

Look after number one because no else is going to but i also look forward to the day when airlines are taking anyone with a licence.

Good luck

[FlyingForFun]

208inICE,

Sorry I don't have an answer to your question beyond what others have already said. Hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread a little, though?

A question for those who describe paying for a type rating as "prostituting themselves". What is the difference between paying for your type rating, and paying for your CPL/IR? Kads - you are quite right, doctors don't pay to be trained on the latest equipment. But they also don't pay for their initial training. So why should we pay for our initial training? And once we have paid for our initial training, can we blame anyone for wondering what else we will pay for???

No answers here.... and I certainly don't expect to find an airline that's willing to pay for my IR! I'm just curious about how other pilots view the world we live in.......

FFF
-------------

[Martin1234]

Why should an operator pay for a type-rating without bond if they don't have to?

As a passanger I appreciate that airline companies try to reduce cost. If I want to help others and can offord it I give money to a type-rating scholarship fund, the red-cross or something. If I want to fly, I choose Ryanair and not Samaritian Airlines. After all, if you have an increase in fares fewer pilots are to be employed.

I know that this industry is not at its peak but I just don't understand why anyone is blaming the operators and/or the pilots. If you spent £30.000 why wouldn't you pay for a type-rating? That might be the only way to actually get something out of the money you already spent. The pilot, the operator or the passengers don't mind. Fellow unemployed pilots? Well, we do have market economy after all.

[KADS]

Martin1234-

It is not logical (nor fair) to pay eg $25.000 for a type rating yourself.
Say, after one year you are made redundant, then you have to pay another $25.000 for a new rating, should you not be able to find a job on your first. Maybe 2-3 years down the line, you are made redundant again and the story (and waste of money) repeats itself. I know this is not a common scenario, but it is still not an unlikely one in these times of new start-ups popping up left and right. ( Personally I've been made redundant 4 times in the last 4 years from 3 different fairly major airlines )

As a passenger I would want to see the most qualified pilots get the job and not the ones willing to pay!!!
(No, I'm not implying that all "I-paid-for-my-rating-myself pilots" are unqualified, most probably are higly qualified, but if just one such selection is made, that is bad enough!!!)

FlyingForFun-

Are doctors not paying for their initial traing???
How many universities do you know of that hand out free Medical degrees, and also pay for the studies that are mandatory to reach a point where you get qualified for such a degree!?!?

Get real! There is a big diffrence in paying for your own studies up to a point where you are qualified for a job and a situation where you have to PAY large sums of money to get that job! And especially as long as there is saftey involved, there should NEVER be such a question!

If all the unions worldwide (IFALPA) stuck together on this point, there would be no such problem. My suggestion is to talk to your local union rep and ask him to bring it up on his next local union meeting!

We have all paid alot of money to get to where we are today, and we are all professionals. We should be treated in such a way, and should not allow us to be abused by petty management!

... just my 5 cents... :D

Rgds

KADS

[208inICE]

Gentlemen,

I appreciate everyone's honest replies. I am flying in Canada where pilots are not so fortunate where the standard operation flies jets. We start from the very bottom as loaders and groomers even after we got our license. After that it's a huge deal when you get to fly a Navajo (do you even know what that is). After seven years in the industry I am a Captain on a King Air, and the way the industry looks I will be here for way too long.

No disrespect to many of you guys, but I have more Command time than most F/O's flying A320 or 737. My experience includes 4000 hrs, 3000 of which are command time. Also, we are flying in the most difficult areas and absolute minimal and often subpar equipment. Not something someone with an FMS, flying above weather can say.

I agree with everyone that paying for a type rating and buying time is not the answer as it encourages operators to squeeze more and more out of us a pilots. HOWEVER: maybe it's the ticket to a high paying job in the middle east or asia, where i'll be sitting at FL350 making US$80000 tax free??? instead of making Can$ 40000 before tax, living in a ****-hole up north where it got to be -55 celsius in windchill last winter and we still had to go fly!!! So you can imagine our situation in Canada....

I do carry a european passport and wonder if it might be better to get my JAA license instead??? or spend the money on type rating??? I would appreciate your opinions...

Thank you

[Maximum]

208inICE, while understanding what you are saying, it still maybe a case of the grass always being greener..........

loads of pilots in the UK and Europe would love to fly in the wilderness - but there just isn't the demand or the environment - certainly in the UK. Highlands and Islands is the nearest we get to it.

so it just depends what way you look at it...........

[High Wing Drifter]

Talking of type ratings; does anyone remeber the recent excitement about Caravan type ratings because of the never ending about to be relaxation on single pilot IFR that the Swiss are trying to push through.

Having done the Air Law exam (results pending I hasten to say), it just occured to me that the Caravan wouldn't need a type rating, just a conversion!! Was somebody having a larf or have I failed Air Law?

[Flypuppy]

FFF,

It was not so terribly long ago that many airlines would pay for an instrument rating.

You just need to look at the nomenclature:

Commercial Pilots Licence
Instrument Rating

Since there is no chance of getting a job without the IR it makes me wonder why there isnt simply a combined Commercial Instrument Pilots Licence - but I guess that might be too obvious.

I have written alot on this forum about the rights and wrongs (mainly about the wrongs ;) )of paying for a type rating, even the MCC was supposed to be paid for by airlines as part of an introduction to the company, use of their SOPs and primer to transport operations, but another business managed to cynically turn that into a money spinner and it has now become a de facto requirement before you can even apply for jobs.

As for prostituting yourself as others may suggest i say go for it as if your desperate to fly and there is no other way then what choice do you have.

There is another option, it is called patience. We are not talking about going up to the local flying club and paying to go for a jolly in the latest whizz bang supper dooper PA28 Tubo Rectractible Wobbly prop supership. We are talking about businesses that are taking money from people who wish to be transported by aeroplane from Point A to Point B safely and comfortably.

Those passengers should be able to expect the highest levels of professionalism and safety from the crew of that aeroplane, if one (or both) of the flight deck crew are paying to work is that professional or safe? What are the legal implications of someone who is paying to fly the aircraft - are they then an employee or not? How does the hull insurance company view this - is the insurance still valid if non-employees are flying? Who is responsible if the paying member of flight crew breaks the aeroplane?

Maybe I am just getting old and cynical.

[flaps to 60]

Flypuppy

How many years have you waited for a job.?

If like me over 5 years and possibly the same for the thread originator then how much patience should one keep heaping on every year as one gets older and see the openings get less and less interest rates rising or the property market passing you by etc etc.

If i had had the money a few years ago i would have not hesitated going for one of them and watched the self righteous hang on for the free job. Dont get me wrong i would have hated having to pay up even more money but my desire to fly would have easily seen to that.

I got lucky by networking and never stepping on anyones toes and it worked for me. My airline paid for everything and im grateful for that. But how long must someone wait to get there taking the pious route.

One thing for sure is that the UK national with their 1000 hours instructing is not going to get taken on easily when there are hundreds of non UK nationals flooding the country with guess what... a Type Rating and lots of hours to boot.


208

Look at www.eaglejet.net

You metioned about working in the middle or far east. Their 737 and 320 progarmmes i think operate in that region and/or eastern europe.

As with everything on this website there are 3 sides to every coin and everyone has an opinion. Sort the wheat from the chaff and go with what you think is.

Good luck and sometimes i wish i was doing you flying until i get to play with FMS that is.

[Flypuppy]

Flaps to 60,

I have yet to get an IR, so I am not in a position to apply for any job, and to be honest the whole idea of having to pay yet more and more money to get a job is making me seriously question continuing. I am willing and have planned for a likely pay cut to take a job as a pilot - but having to pay for the priveledge is maybe just a step too far that my wife would not be willing to take. Why should pilots have to subsidise a commercial organisation's training budget?

Consider the questions I ask about responsibility for insurance while paying to work. I have yet to hear any answers to them, from anyone.

At the PPRuNe seminars a few years ago, all the people who were at the front of the room made it clear that buying a type rating was a bad idea - why should I discount their advice now?

I also find it interesting that many of the people who advocate paying for type ratings never paid for them themselves.

If you are now a first officer, and your company told you that you were no longer required, but replaced you with a paying first officer would your enthusiasm for paid type ratings and line time still be as strong? The desire and enthusiasm for flying I have is still a powerful driving force, but there is also a financial reality that has to be considered as well.

Just in case you think I am being too pious, the sickness is spreading beyond first job pay for your own type ratings:

Position:
B747 Type Rating / First Officer Programme

Experience/ Skills:
1500 Hours jet experience

Details:
P*** Aviation, in association with a leading international airline, are pleased to offer First Officers the opportunity to gain a type rating, and fly the B747-400.

In this unique programme, P***offer you the chance to self-sponsor a type rating for the Boeing 747-400 aircraft. Upon successfully gaining this type rating, we will then offer a one year contract as First Officer, flying intercontinental routes. Upon completion of this year, P*** Aviation will, using our position as the biggest flight crew leasing company in the world, endeavour to find further assignments for you.

Interested applicants should have the following minimum requirements:

- JAR Licence
- Class 1 JAR Medical
- EU Passport
- Minimum 2500 hours total time including 1500 hours on jet aircraft.
- Candidates with minimum 3000 hours TurboProp 'Glass Cockpit' experience may also be considered.


This scheme means you have to provide a bank guarantee of €32,000 (so if you dont make the grade you have no job and a whopping big loan to service) plus if you do make the grade the agency will deduct €2667 per month from your salary for a year, you have to organise your own transport to a hotel down route (which you have to organise and pay for yourself) plus it is up to the paying flightcrew to look after tax and social security payments.

[helldog]

Paying for the type rating is bull, if you do you bring the whole industry down.

Ok bonding is fine, that I can live with. Or even if you pay for it when you are asured of a job.....fine, AS LONG as your money is refunded in full in six months. There are companies that do that. This bloody topic makes me so mad I find it hard to make sense. Ahhhhhhhhh:yuk:

Why do we have to pay? Because these doctors and accountants etc that get free training and end up earning a sh!tload more than us. Well these people still want to fly from London to Rome for 20 quid......who pays? The poor sod that wants to make a living flyin these people.

I say put ticket prices up...you cant pay...too bad take a bus:mad:

Thats my bit

[Boomerang]

Just wondering if anyone has converted their ICAO to JAT ATPL with a Type Rating test (and theory exams of course)

I am looking for a TR test on a Dash 8. At this stage I've only found (insert reputable company name) who have offered me a basic endorsement for 22,000 Euros, plus base training for an additional 10,000. If I already have 500 on type, I guess you can see why I'd be nuts to do it all again, when I could probably buy a Jet TR for that price.

So any advice, experiences?

[redsnail]

Yep, I did mine on the Shorts 330. My fiance did his on the 737-300. I did mine in the aircraft, he did his in the sim.
I had to do all sorts of extra stuff such as limited panel, stalls, steep turns etc whereas he didn't.
The guts of it is, take off, do a SID, track on an airway using either an RMI or VOR. Upper air work (if they are so inclined), back to the hold. (Note, they love their holding patterns here. Must nominate and stick to a speed etc), NDB approach with a circling approach (note, not the same way as it's done in Oz). Land. Take off again, lose an engine, back into the hold (or vectored for the ILS). Do the ILS single engine and either land or go round. (I've forgotten). I think you go-round, get the engine back and a normal ILS to land.

Holding patterns are the go, speed nomination and adherence to as well, you can nominate another speed, need to be +-5 knots. Other tolerances the same in Oz.

[Dondon]

I'm thinking of starting EFT APP course next summer. There is however a lot that I'm already thinking about! :confused:

The course costs around $55 000 and if you add up the extras that you need, it comes up to about $ 70 000. (Correct me if I'm wrong) It will take about a year to complete the course and a year to work as an intern instructor.

So my question here is, does this course (or similar courses) really lead you to an airline job directly after you finish your time as an intern instructor? Can you get a job without any specific type rating?

If it is needed, could someone tell me about their experience of how they ended up with an airline job after an integrated course like the EFT APP course?

Thank you :p

[Gillespie]

I bloody hope so!

I just hope that loads of wannabees have read the recent post http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142778 as this outines the massive detrimental effect that self sponsoring a type rating leads to.

The more people that pay for their job, the worse the salaries/benefits/perks get. Buy gaining a flight instructors license seems the most honourable way to the right hand seat of an airliner and it will cost you far less. Not to mention that flight instructing seems to be very rewarding and enjoyable.

Don't count your chickens as it may take you longer than you think to get that lucky break. I good friend of mine got his licence 2 years ago and hasn't had a sniff.

perseverance seems to be the key.

Good luck.

[scroggs]

Actually, to be accurate, the thread you refer to does not suggest that paying for a type rating has 'a massive detrimental effect'! The ramifications for pay and conditions comes from those fools who work for free in the hope that gaining hours will help them. What they don't see is that when you work for free you are saying that your work has no value, therefore why should anyone ever pay you?

SSTRs are a legitimate method of potentially improving your employability. Whether they work or not depends on who you talk to. This is quite a separate issue from companies forcing you to pay for type ratings which is, IMHO, wrong - although it has effectively been done for years. Even the BA Cadetship made you pay for it with a reduced salary.

Scroggs

[Megaton]

An ex-EFT instructor (without type-rating) is now working for Eastern Airways on the Jetstream.

[Dondon]

"Ham Phisted" check your PM please.

So does any one honestly think with reference to what scroggs was talking about, that one can get a decent airline job without having to beg for it?

[FlyingForFun]

There is no guarantee of a job in this industry, either with or without a type rating. We are in, or trying to get into, an industry where the supply of pilots is far greater than the demand - and we can not expect a job to be handed to us on a plate just because we've completed the required training.

A type rating may or may not enhance your chances of a job. There are plenty of people out there who have got jobs without type ratings, and plenty of others who do have type ratings but still can't get a job.

FFF
-------------

[Speevy]

I did something similar a long time ago, I instructed for 2 years and gained about 1100 hours, then I decided it was time to move on, so I quit my job and I started begging any Airline I could.
Guess what! I couldn't find anything for more than one year and still up to date nobody called me for an interview!

Then I decided to go and look for something smaller and I ended up paying for a type rating and then eventually getting a job!
If you get a jet type rating without anything ready afterward, what is the difference!

Everybody knows that having a type rating with no real experience doesn't really count!

If you really want to get an airline job, the quickest way are Ryainair and Easyjet, yeas you will have to pay for a type rating but afterward you will get a job!
Or you can wait untill things will get better.....

Me I am stuck in Africa flying a turboprop and I know that the chances of getting a job in a major are quite low, but at least I am having a good time.....

Good luck and Good flying
Speevy

[MAX]

Got my first jet job after Sept 11 WITHOUT a type rating. Then moved onto a large airline WITHOUT a type rating.

It can be done but you need to network and work for it. Not just a case of sending off cv's.

Good Luck.

MAX:cool:

[Dondon]

What I think that most newbies do is that they aim too high without even having started their real training on the road to become a pilot! Sure, the aviation industry isn't very attractive but seriously... Would you rather have an office job and forget the dream you had since you were a kid?

Aim high, but not too high. According to what I know, it's extremely difficult to get into a major airline once you graduate from an ab-inito program such as the APP in EFT.

What about working as an instructor for a while and be patient for a while. Maybe one could get into a regional airline and work there for a few years until the big job comes up! To pay for ratings and applications to be read is absolutely ridiculous!

What do you think about those future plans?

[What to do?]

Ahoy

PPL 75 hrs etc . . . Managed to pay off the baby licence whilst working. Which is nice.

If, say, I decide to go and get the frozen, what's the likelihood of then having to pay for a type rating? 50 thousand ponies, bars, sheets or whatever HSBC loan service decides to call them; then 20 more for the type rating? How common is this lunacy? My friend’s just got a contract with flybe, and they’re making him pay for it, who else? I’d rather be b*ggered by a Walrus than take a 65K+ loan out for it all.

Anyone who replies with “Your hearts not in it” will be found and introduced to the aforementioned creature. 65K+ is no giggling matter.

Given this, would it be better to go to a cheaper school, and pay for a type, or to go to somewhere like Ox without?

Cheers for your time

[Bealzebub]

Monkey ? Ponies ? Walrus ? Ox ?

Have you thought instead about becoming a vet ?

If you decide to go and get a "frozen", (would that be an ATPL ?) Whats the likelihood of having to pay for a type rating ? Who can say. You have to pass the various obstacles in obtaining a licence first and the Class 1 medical requirements. I suspect your figure of "65K" is fairly arbitary since the costs for any individual vary with their own ability and experience and of course luck ! In truth a few hundred hours and a bought type rating isn't going to excite anybody other than companies who might be looking for low houred pilots on low salaries who will also assume the financial risk for their own training costs. Certainly there are a few around today, but who can predict what will happen next month or next year. I suspect it wouldn't take much more than 1 or 2 high profile incidents for Airline Insurance companies to put a fiscal stop to this practice and specify minimum levels of experience. Of course that is only my opinion and you pay your money and take your chances.

As others will tell you there are no guarantees in this business, but there is a need to consistently and adequately prove yourself. The best advice you can be given is to research the many threads here and speak to others who have embarked on this path and then decide if it is really a risk you want to take, and then how best you can plan a strategy to give you the optimum chance of achieving that goal. For most people money is a serious obstacle and clearly the cost of training may prove to be a compromise between the best you can perceive and the best you can afford. There is often truth in the saying that you get what you pay for, and cheaper schools may prove to be a false economy if it requires resits or takes longer to achieve the requisite standards. Type ratings ( as they apply to large aircraft types) are very much at the end of a professional licence course and I am not at all sure I would even worry about such things until the licence itself was obtained. Then and only then might it be a consideration to move onto the employment stage.

[D-Wolf]

Hi.

First of all, i would like to say that: Yes, i know there is a search function, and know how to use it.

BUT.
when searching for information regarding TR's you will get sooo many threads about information on different places, and different people.
What i would like to achieve with this thread is an overview of known TR places. To compare prices, and perhaps peoples Pro's and Con's of each.

So to make it short.
Where do people go for the Cheapest TR for jets ?
Where do you get most hours for the money ?
Which places would you suggest that people stay away from ?

Hope for alot of feedback, so we can compare prices. So far i have Eaglejet as prefered, but recently people have told me, that there are alot cheaper options. Howeverr i have still to find a good price.

D.W.

[tomplankplane]

2 questions regarding my situation really. Don't know if anyone can help as after numerous searches on the Prof Studies Loan that HSBC offer, its clear that a CPL is an accepted program of study but what about a type rating?
With a good/high chance of employment with an airline I've been in contact with, I'm trying to approach HSBC for an unsecured 20K loan.


1. Now would a type rating come under a "Professional Studies Loan" or would I be looking at just a normal loan?

2. If I mention I got through my modular frozen ATPL without any loans/bank assistance, what would you say my chances for 20K unsecured and to a 19 year old without a degree?


Would appreciate anyones thoughts, doesn't have to be much!

tom

[GMIMA]

dont do it!

If you hang on in there for a yr or two, u will get there and u will not have to pay for a loan for a type rating.

I was in the same boat as you a few months ago, all i can say is im glad i didnt gamble - i have now got a job with a good airline

[tomplankplane]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for self funding type ratings.

I am however curious as to whether HSBC consider it as Professional Studies Loan or not.

[Feneris]

I was approved (but didn't use) one for ATPL, the bank manager said that these loans are considered on an individual basis, i.e. a computer doesn't make a blind decision. You'd need to prove your financial history, a viable future and basically convince the bank they'll get their money back.

I've also heard comment on pprune that because it's decided on an indivdual basis, some bank branches seem to say yes more readily?! Search previous threads for HSBC, loads should come up.

F

[TSR22]

Hi Everybody!

I just started to upgrade from Sailplanes to the Frozen ATPL. I am at a fairly early stage (Doing the JAR PPL).
The big question, though, is: Do I pay for a type rating or not?
What are the chances of getting a frozen ATPL in the minimum time and then getting a type rating paid for?
Furthermore, I read an article in "today's pilot" (by no less than the founder of PPRUNE) that suggests a type rating on a turboprop type may be more appropriate and cheaper. How much cheaper?

I dont want to sound as if I am being tight (although I dont have much money :{ ) - I am quite prepared to go the extra couple of miles if that is what it takes. But I just want to know - how neccessary is it??

Any advice appreciated!

Cheers guys!

[BigGrecian]

Suggest you do a search there are lots of threads on this. General perception is that it just erodes T&Cs etc but make your own decision.
This thread is the biggest :
I will not pay for a Type Rating (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142778)

[TSR22]

Thanks for that - been looking at the loan stuff too - think I'll take a bit longer and reduce the risk!

[Teroc]

Hi all,
Apologies if this has been asked before but has anyone ever suceeded in getting a tax concession on their training?

Im thinking specifically of the current model in the market today where a newly qualified pilot more or less has to pay for a type rating to get that first job.

Could She/He claim tax back on this and has anyone done it successfully before?

T.

[SpaceBadger]

I don't know about type ratings but I asked customs and excise about reclaiming VAT on my CPL/IR to no avail.

I think it's a bloody disgrace that we have to pay tax on training for professional qualifications. Is it just us or does anyone know of any other professions where this happens?

[Phileas Fogg]

The tax (VAT/TVA etc.) rule applies to the company providing a service and not the individual paying for training.
The service provider is bound by law, if applicable in that country, to charge VAT/TVA etc. in the country that the service is provided and only if the payer of the service is a VAT/TVA etc. registered company may that VAT/TVA etc. be reclaimed.

[Teroc]

Bugger :{

Maybe when things get bad regarding this much hyped pilot shortage in the future (yeah right !!) the government might review it to encourage more applicants.

Ok thats a bit of an Xmas wish I know.... :ouch:

[helicopter-redeye]

There is something in the latest VAT circular about the VAT treatment of Distance Learning Courses (although reading it again, having fished it out of the bin, I can't see anything that is 'informative' within it). All their publications are on www.hmce.gov.uk

You can reclaim membership fees againt your tax code, but these will be low compared to the cost of the training (and may not be approved anyway).

I guess Mr B is assuming everybody is getting career development loans and paying with this, so paying tax once only as VAT ???

:{

[Julian]

Yep, I am the same. Unfortunately I am in one of those professions where I have to put myself on courses all the time to keep up with current requirements and legislation.

Unless you have worked as an employee for a company who have put you through the courses already then you are stuck with paying for them yourself as no new employer will take you on if you dont possess the qualifications they require.

The qualifications are also specific to the industry and so the trainers milk it for all they can - I spent £2500 to sit in a classroom for a week to listen to a guy warble on. Not bad for him when you consider there were about 15 of us!!!

I am set up now as a Ltd company (very Limited as only me :D) so I am able to claim back the VAT. Unfortunately tried the same thing with the flying training but as my company does not supply any services to do with flying and shows no income from from it the account said no go! Oh well you have to try dont you :}

Julian.

[Dan Winterland]

In the UK, if you pay an airline for your own training you will find that the company will have claimed the tax back at the full corporate tax rate - even though the cash comes from you! So when these companys make you cough up the full cost of the type rating, they are actually making money from you.

Roll on the day when these scams are finished for good, AND DON'T PAY FOR YOUR OWN RATING.

[south coast]

Hi there...

Could any of you offer any advice as to which would be the best choice on the above two mentioned ratings at the moment.

Also, if you know where and with who such a rating could be done, aswell as the aprox price I would be very grateful.

Thanks.

[Bundyguzzler]

definately Airbus, aircraft for the future, prices similar I believe,25000.30000
Cheers good luck

[error_401]

If considering a self sponsored type-rating

I'd vote against doing it at all.

Jobs are still only a few and you may get the wrong one.

With major airlines - they usually do not really like self sponsored type ratings.
With others - it may be fine the make you pay for it anyway.

As stated before Airbus could be the choice of the future - but then wait some more time and get paid for applying...

I'm looking forward to a boosting economy with a huge demand in aviation which put's us pilots back on the controls... :}

[abracadabra]

Perhaps someone else can point out the nitty gritty details on this but it is my understanding that An A320 type rating will allow you to fly the A318/9/21 and A330 with only a bit of differences training.

The 737 rating will allow you any NG 737, (again with differences training as appropriate for the 600-700-800-900), but only for the 737. In other words, your rating will be useless for operators with the 757, 767, and, dare I say it, 777.

To summarize, a twin airbus rating will pop up up on more company radars than just a 737 rating. Or so I believe.

[License to Fly]

If you are going to Self Sponsor your Type (which I would not recommend on an Airbus/737 unless you have lots of cash - and then it has to be on an Airbus), why not go for an aircraft thats a little less competitive in the number of people looking for jobs (eg the ATR )?

just a thought ...

LTF

[tayyareci]

I used to fly Boeing before, now I am almost finished my A320 type rating. If you have decided to get a type rating I suggest you go for A320. It's the future and very nice airplane to fly indeed.

and the biggest bonus is you don't have to eat your food on your lap, there's a nice table in front of you to have your dinner properly!!!:D :D :D

A320:ok:

[ultimatepro63]

where do you get a type rating fo example 747-400 or the a340
or the 777 in europe nothing in the states

excuse my dumbness for not knowing ^^^^:(

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

GECAT do them, check it out.

www.gecat.com

[gonnabe]

Hi
I'm new here at this forum but I've read through most of the posts about sponsoring yourself with a type rating and I think there is a need for summing it up.
If everyboddy who has bought a type rating with or without line traning could just write a few lines saying wether you were able to secure a job or not and what your previous experience was.

I'm sure it would help those of us that are thinking of getting a type rating.
And please don't get in to the discussion about wheter it's right or wrong to sponsor yourself!

Cheers

[aiellosky]

I am checking this forum for a few months now and as a wannabe i have a question.
If you dont buy a type rating or if u dont get a sponsor(i am too old for that) ....how can I get a type rating to be eligible to apply for an airline job as a FO???
Regards
Luis

[Simon_Sez]

Luis,

Buying a type-rating these days is one of the only ways for low houred pilots to give themselves a competitive edge. You'll always have the argument crop up - "Don't pay for a type-rating because you'll be whoring yourself out to the airlines balh blah blah". The truth of the matter is that to join a lot of airlines, YOU MUST be willing to pay for a type rating.
However, in saying that, the market is changing for the better and the whole paying for a type rating idea will fade out quite rapidly (but not disappear) due to simple economics i.e. supply and demand.

Wherever the industry is at, the only safe way to play it is to have a contract saying that "On successful completion of the type rating course you will be offered a contract of employment with us." I seriously don't understand people who buy type ratings just for the sake it, it makes no commercial sense. But that's me.

Hope this helps,

Simon.

[aiellosky]

THanks for the info.
Since i am just in the beggining of the long path....i will wait and see what happens when i get ready to apply.
I wont be able to buy a rating cause all my money will go to get the frozen atpl ratings....anyway...who knows right?
Regards
Luis

[Labiture]

Hi,

I'm looking for some information on ATR 42 type rating: in your opinion, what would be the best TRTO for this kind of type rating regarding the quality and price of the course.
Tks for your help.

Ben

[Björn]

Ben,

Try any of the following training providers:

ATR Training Centre: www.atraircraft.com/training.htm

Skyblue Aviation: www.skyblueaviation.com

DAT Flight Academy: www.datflightacademy.com

Good Luck!

[IRISHPILOT]

try also the French place in Bangkok:

asianatr (http://www.asianatr.com/)

I did mine with CSA, who prepared me very well for flying the aircraft after:

OK (http://www.ok-plus.com/en/posadky/pos_pilot.htm)

they should be about EUR20000, VAT is 5% (cheaper from autumn, as they get their own fixed base sim)

cheers, IP

[Labiture]

Thank you very much for your help.
If you have any other useful info, i'm still interested.
Good flight.

Ben

[rons22]

Thank you for reading this.
Could someone let me know which type rating would give the best oppotunity for employment?

I guess, airlines mainly use A319s/320s or am I wrong here?
Also, being low hours pilot is it better to go for smaller aircrafts first and get some experience (i.e. turbo-prop intercity types) or aim for big right at the start?

Many thanks!
Ron :cool:

[number]

...something is actually moving?

I haven't attended the forum for a while also because at the time I have given up with my pilot career.
Lately I've heard from friends who are looking forward to get a 737 TR because according to their rumors, there are not many 737 TR pilots around and most of them are getting hired.

I believe it's impossible to check this information, and personally I think that the situation it hasn't changed from 2 years ago, but I just wanted to make sure about it.
Is Ryanair hiring easily lately?
How good are the chances to get an interivew (not even a job) in % once you have a 737 TR?

Thank you

[Dutchie]

TR is only of interest if you have quality flying hours attached as well...

[number]

I agree Dutchie, but I know that a certain number of pilots lately with just a few hundred hours on prop, CPL, ATPL, got hired after their 737 TR.
I am just trying to understand the balance between the actual risks and the possibilities to get hired and if something is moving lately or it's just a wrong impression.
I know it's almost impossible to be objective.

[FLYbyWIT]

Astraeus / FSB / Danfly / Skyblue / Parc / CAE / Gecat / RWL a few of the many just of the top of my head with some producing more cadets then others every single month. However last I heard Ryanair wont take you unless you got significant time on type, the likes of Jet2 or Globespan have preferred routes of taking guys on for example Jet2 just took CTC and OATs APP guys as have Britannia despite the fact they probably have dozens of type rated applicants from various others TRTO's, globespan may prefer to take you from skyblue, Astraeus from Storm and even then they certainly dont need as many as do actually subscribe to the course with them each month and a few of those guys have money to burn on buying block hours. BMI Baby took a few non rated low hours a while ago but obviously preferred to rate them themselves, However in saying all that there is always the odd job/time/place that the rating will pay off but your in the minority, chances increase if you can buy hours but when do you stop spending money- it is an endless pit, but if it lands you that job you will look back and probably care not a jot. As for the 737 guys drying up on the market, I think you can add that along side the myth of a Pilot Shortage just around the corner. A few Years ago it was a HUGE NO NO to do a type rating and now it has become a norm and more and more agencies are springing up with TRTO's to milk us poor bastards for everything and now when talking to people about type ratings because of the amount of people out there with them to distinguish yourself you need experience i.e buy hours.Self Sponsored Type ratings have been around for decades and it carried more weight me thinks ten years ago, five years ago it would distinguish from the crowd and now you need one to nearly join the crowd- a few hundred hours will now get you ahead of the crowd and if your not careful condemed to non aviation related work for the rest of your days paying off bills.
One guy in my local club got a loan for intergrated course and then on top of that another one to pay for a 737 type and at this stage its over 100000euro of a loan with MASSIVE repayments and shortly after Sucessfully landed himself a Jet Job but due to requirement to pay for their Type He "GUESS WHAT" had to turn it down as it was just the breaking point financially for him- What A Pisser. GO for it anyways and have a Plan B to bide your time, Your rating is now on your license but may not be required for years so be patient. I knew another guy who waited nearly 3yrs for a job after his type but when he got it, it was a BBJ.

[Piltdown Man]

Neither, I'd suggest a job flying anything (preferably a turbo-prop). An Airbus rating is 1) expensive, 2) complicated and 3) unable to guarantee a job unless "reasonable" experience on type, say one year. Save your cash so you can live until you get a job.

[Phileas Fogg]

FbT,
You're somewhat behind the times. It is common knowledge, now, that their is no tie-up between Astraeus and Storm.
I understand that Storm changed management/ownership towards the back end of last year and at that time the tie-up with Astraeus was severed.

[Send Clowns]

FbW

Wrong in other areas as well. For example I know people get into Jet2 unrated from other routes, albeit with instructional hours. Ryanair will take you at low hours (I know 3 there now) but only if you pass interview and check flight before the type rating. BMI Baby the same. Can see why - the rumour is that Astraeus started doing the same after getting some really crap pilots who had paid for type ratings.

I think you are posting some rumours and some of the companies' official policies, with possibly some out-of-date information. Very few companies seem actually to stick rigidly (or even at all) to their own policy - even BA don't really care if you have integrated training, or even know the difference as far as I can see.

P.S. Ever heard of paragraphs? Awfully tiring to read a stream of text! :ugh:

[moggiee]

I think you are posting some rumours

on the Professional Pilot's RUMOUR NEtwork that just won't do!

[FlyingForFun]

Number,

Forgive me for not directly answering your question. Also forgive me if I've misunderstood your post. But if I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that because (you believe) there are fewer B737-rated pilots than there used to be, you should now get a B737 rating?

Surely you are looking at this the wrong way around? The way I look at it, if there are fewer B737-rated pilots then that is a good reason not to pay for the type-rating myself. With fewer rated pilots around (if that really is the case), the chances are now better than ever that airlines will hire you without the rating and pay for your rating.

FFF
--------------

[Turkish777]

Good call 'Flying for fun' I think its criminal that some of these airlines expect us to pay for our own type ratings, if we all stick to our guns they will all be in the same position BA are in at the moment and they will have to employ little unexperienced guys like me with just minimal hours :p

[flystudent]

If you do a type rating course and finish with the final skills test in the sim all done and dusted, are you then able to be signed off as having done the Type rating on said aircraft or do you have to have done the circuits etc etc in the real plane ? (the Base check ?)

Thanks In Advance

FS:ok:

[trainer too 2]

No base check is no TR. Unless you are very experienced and the sim and the TRTO is allowed to do zero flight time training.

[BillieBob]

A base check is not required.

The 4 or 6 landings is only an experience requirement for the issue of the type rating. It must be flown with a TRI but not, necessarily, a TRE. Also worth bearing in mind that you have a limit of 6 months between passing the LST and applying for the rating.

[trainer too 2]

To clarify: no base check: you will receive a piece of paper of the TRTO to say you did it. With basecheck: the JAA allows you to put it on your licence.:8

[willby]

Hi BillieBob
To quote from Lasors:
b) Pass a Licensing Skills test (LST) conducted by an authorised JAR Type Rating Examiner (TRE).
Regards
Willby

[BillieBob]

willby - and this is relevant because.....

Nobody said the LST did not have to be done by a TRE - we're talking about the requirement for (4 or 6) landings to be completed on the aeroplane after the LST.

[willby]

Hi,
JAR FCL 1.250 states that a valid MEIR is required as a pre-requisite prior to commencing an initial MP Type Rating course. However, Lasors 2005 states that a valid MEIR within the last five years is all that is required and from recent posts I believe this is the current requirement of the CAA.
Does any Irish licence holder know the position adopted by the IAA in this regard?
Regards
Willby

[IRISHPILOT]

IAA was happy with a current multi IR, no need for a current ME rating. - this was 2 years ago however, but under JAR.
This means you can renew in a sim, so it was one day in Stapleford for me.

cheers, IP

[willby]

Thanks IP.... could you please check your pm's.
Willby

[jamielatham]

Hi all;

now this at the moment seems in the distant future, but neatherless here goes...

I am going to naples in the very near future, i am doing the JAA & FAA career pilot course, i will leave holding a JAA FROZEN ATPL, what would be the best deal, apply for a job as that, or use my own money to get like a A320 type rating?

i guess the type rating depends what airline i want to apply for

Any comments will be appreciated!

Thanks


Jay

[Sheep Guts]

Hi Jamie,
A type rating is not really a prerequesit for finishing your qualifications and never will be. More than likely after completing your training and get some experience, this should be eoungh to elevate you in the indiviual airline recruiters or human rescources eyes.

I didnt see this and though with qualifications I may be able to pick up a job and infact I was 9/10ths of the way there but missed out. Since then I have struggled to get any interviews and most of replies run along the lines of " sorry Sir, but our minimum requirements are 500hours on type" and this fact is all they are interested in. Not the fact that I have 5500tt plus 3000Hours Multi Turbo Prop Command, 4 ATPLS and a multitude of international experience.

So in short I dont recommend it. But its a personal decision. I know of many sucess stories , but there are just as many if not more unsuceesfull.

I dont fully belive Im unsucessfull and will continue to apply for positions for that one off chance I get an interview and maybe a start. The first 500hours is the toughest.

If you do consider doing it ensure you have a job to go to and have it in writing. I was 37 and had nothing to lose at the time.

Sheep

Im still 37

:ok: :)

[AIRWAY]

Some will argue that a TR will give you better chance than someone without one, others will tell you the opposite.

Some airliners prefer type rated pilots others don't.

It all varies accordingly so the choice is yours :ok:

[jamielatham]

Thanks for the Replys, i will seriously sit down the think about it!

Thanks


Jay

[VITODRAGO]

Be aware that some type rating courses being sold on the market at present time do not include in the contract the actual take offs and landings on the real aircraft, these courses do not grant that you will actually do those required circuits and the seller always says that it will be very easy to find an operator who will give you an aircraft for that 1 hour of real flying in the circuit. Believe me : no operator will do this, unless you are already hired.

AFTER 6 MONTHES YOUR SIMULATOR TRAINING WILL EXPIRE AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE THE TYPE RATING.

WHEN YOU BUY A TYPE RATING COURSE YOU WANT TO HAVE IN WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT THAT YOU WILL DO THAT REAL FLIGHT, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHICH OPERATOR WILL BE AND WHEN.

Some friends of mine bought type rating courses which did not have in the contract the real flight and now they are desperate trying to find where to do the real flight, few months from now they will have wasted big monies if they do not succed in buying and performing this real flight.

I have been looking around to shop TR and in many contracts there is no mention about the real flight, in very few there is, but not all of them say WHO and WHEN.

[needajob01]

one of my friend is asking me what is the best for someone who want pay his own type rating?.
the B737 or the A320. He is European.

In Asia, more and more companies are buying the A320, but it seems to me that the immigration is asking for 500h on type to give the authorisation to fly for a foreign pilot.
The B737 is used worldwide, but how many 737 pilots are waiting for a job?

China, will not have enough pilots in the futur. but when?
I have heared there is a waiting list of 6 months for students waiting to make their line training, I am simply scandalized.
then in 6 months, there will be a waiting list of 3 years for pilots waiting to work for 10 euro per hour.

there is already a waiting list of pilots paying to work!!!(eaglejet???)

Back to my question: A320 or B737???


I really need a job (http://www.geocities.com/ineedajob01)

[VITODRAGO]

Be aware that some type rating courses being sold on the market at present time do not include in the contract the actual take offs and landings on the real aircraft, these courses do not grant that you will actually do those required circuits and the seller always says that it will be very easy to find an operator who will give you an aircraft for that 1 hour of real flying in the circuit. Believe me : no operator will do this, unless you are already hired.

AFTER 6 MONTHES YOUR SIMULATOR TRAINING WILL EXPIRE AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE THE TYPE RATING.

WHEN YOU BUY A TYPE RATING COURSE YOU WANT TO HAVE IN WRITTEN IN THE CONTRACT THAT YOU WILL DO THAT REAL FLIGHT, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHICH OPERATOR WILL BE AND WHEN.

Some friends of mine bought type rating courses which did not have in the contract the real flight and now they are desperate trying to find where to do the real flight, few months from now they will have wasted big monies if they do not succed in buying and performing this real flight.

I have been looking around to shop TR and in many contracts there is no mention about the real flight, in very few there is, but not all of them say WHO and WHEN.

[james707]

Any one looking to do FAA Type Ratings or recurrent in the B737NG or A320 check out www.bondaviationservices.com prices are competitive

[BALEWA]

www.jetcrew.com


;) The best, yes:ok:

[broottmeenoo]

Did you say "one of my friend..." ?

[scameron77]

Firstly, I can hear the hornets next this thread will stir up buzzing away already, I don't apologise for it and I also would appreciate it if all the axe grinders out there refrain from posting derogatory comments unless they add to the discussion.

I am Scottish, therefore to fulfill national stereotypes in the UK I am consequently tight. That's why the concept of paying £20k ish to make me more employable kinda stinks, however I think we can all agree that after a bunch of 'flip-flops' decide to fly into perfectly working skyscrapers then the aviation world has changed for ever, a definite negative for us newbies.

Yes, in an ideal world, we'd get sponsorship from the airlines, join them as cadets, work our way up through them gaining experience and mastering our piloting skill, God forbid even get paid for flying (I know it seems a bit 'out there' but apparently it used to happen), a regular Xanadu. However like the fabled city it can only be considered fiction in the current climate.

I have weighed up the situation and if required I could potentially pay out the wonga to get my own type rating based on the following:

I'm not bonded to any airline for a set amount of years

I can get to exactly where I want to be quicker rather than building up over time on smaller aircraft i.e. King Air -> BAe 146, etc. (Before I get abuse - I'm not denigrating this method, its just I want to get onto the big boys as soon as possible)

I could put myself above a lot of my contemporaries for the same experience and hours.

I am that little more attractive to an employer as I already have a type rating.

QUESTION IS:

If I am to go for a TR based on me having 300 hours, a FAA and JAA CPL/ME/IR and ATPL(f) which manufacturer should I go for and which model? I've had an extensive look through PPJN.COM to see whats on order, who's hiring, etc. I just want to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak if my ambitions are feasible. I would look to finish the TR by around May next year.

So options are as I see them Boeing 737(a 767-200 opens up Air Scotland based in Glasgow) or Airbus A319/320 because of Easyjet's mass order plus Airbus ratings cover almost the whole 320 family, I must admit I'm leaning towards this.

I mean if I was to go out and get an A330/340 rating would this be folly as generally this is what most pilots work up to? As a result I have a potentially useless TR in my pocket because nobody will hire me with my total hours to fly an A340 despite having the TR?

Stephen

[Piltdown Man]

No, resist at all costs. If nobody pays, nobody will pay! Airlines need pilots, they should pay! OK, so they bond you for that, but there is no such thing as free lunch. Yes, I know I have a job but I don't want munchkins throwing rocks in my pond. The thin end of the wedge is paying for your rating. The thick end is when you are the customer, paying to sit in the front bit with the windows and knobs and buttons etc.

[niknak]

If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay for your own type rating, it put's you at a huge advantage when applying for jobs.
The company doesn't have to worry about losing money if they put you through the rating and you don't make it, either initially or at a later date.
You don't have to worry about being bonded for years, and/or having to wait for promotion when rated pilots join as direct entry employees ahead of you.

In any sector of this industry, it puts you streets ahead if you demonstrate that you have put in the effort and taken the risk.
It's a big outlay, a big risk and a huge personal effort, but a far quicker way to greater riches than Mr Piltdown and his clan will ever experience.

[scameron77]

The only other option I see open to me at this stage in my career is to pay for turbine time with a company such as Ameriflight or Eagle Jet or one of their contemporaries.

I have looked into a scheme where I pay $44,000 to get FAA Part 135 training then a type rating on either a Lear or a Citation and then fly until I get a job elsewhere. Multi Engine, Jet time = Good on CV, $44k for the priviledge, both citation and lear less than what majors consider 'relevant hours' = Not so good.

Believe me I would prefer not to be in the position of forking out more dinaro but its the nature of the beast. Air Operators now know they never have to set up their own schemes again in the time since 9/11 if they don't want to. There is an eager and willing pool of us willing to fork out the hard cash and get ourselves the licences and TR's. Why should they bother with the extra admin, cost and hassle.

Question is . . . Airbus or Boeing? Then its A320 family, A330 or alternatively 737 or 767?

That's what I need to know from you lot at this stage.

[Skunkworks]

it put's you at a huge advantage when applying for jobs.

...and your "fellow" applicants at a huge DISadvantage!


Ok, so I am a member of the "Clan" (if that is those of us who never paid for a job) so perhaps I have a different perspective on things. But, this whole idea of trying to "get ahead" of everyone else by selling yourself cheaper is just not a good idea - not for you, us "clanmembers" or any other pilot!

Where does it end?

You buy the rating. Next guy buy rating+Line Training - now all of a sudden you are not "ahead" anymore. The next one then TR-LT and works the first year for free...etc. etc.


Just don't do it. Don't!

[NoseGear]

scameron, stop blaming 9/11 for this farcical situation, it is being created soley by people like you, buying a type rating. Be a man and own up to it, it is your ilk ruining this industry. As has been said, if you don't do it, the airlines will have to pay for your training, and pay you. "Xanadu" has been fecked over by all you wannabes with stars in your eyes about flying jets. :rolleyes:

You don't want to "build up time" on a 146 or a Kingair? Why, is it beneath you? Don't underestimate the difficulty of doing a type rating on a jet with your hours. If you and niknak think this is the way to fame, fortune and personal glory, you are very sadly mistaken. Where do you actually think this will lead?

Don't pay for it, and don't make the mistake of thinking the career path to the jets is no fun, its the most fun flying you will do, and you will meet and make great freinds along the way. Thats the way it worked for me, and I have no regrets.

Nosey

[scameron77]

Hi Folks,

I also wrote something about 'hornets nests' and 'axe grinding' and of course, my personal favourite 'refrain from posting derogatory comments unless they add to the discussion'.

This is meant to be an informed debate.

I am going ahead with paying for my own type rating, whither some of you other there like it or not, on 250 hours with a measly FAA CPL/ME/IR doesn't really cut much mustard out there, some of you may have forgotten that.

As for 9/11, anyone in this industry who things the events on that day haven't changed aviation for ever have sadly been living in Xanadu for the past 5 years. Why not tell the guys on the BA sponsorship scheme due to start in October 2001 that 9/11 didn't affect them. I had a friend get a phone call on the 12th telling him it was cancelled indefinitely and surprisingly no recommencement since.

To be honest I don't look at working an apprenticeship on smaller aircraft as a bad thing, its just I want to get to a specific place and I want to get there as quickly as possible. I bet there is not one of you out there that took an exit off a choc-a-block motorway to use backstreets to get to your final destination.

Nosegear I trust you read the bit in brackets that I typed after the King Air BAe146 bit? 'Before I get abuse - I'm not denigrating this method'. Possibly not based on your response.

Now as normal on here this has went to base name calling, misinterpretation and tit for tat b/s we are used to. So far nobody has answered any of my questions, which are:

What manufacturer?
What model?
and Where?

All I've got is 'don't do it' and 'sellout' from people who already appear to be in a nice situation.

[tropical wave]

Scameron 777
Nosegear is correct.Later on in your career you will understand why its the airline responsibility to train you.I must say you sound a bit harsh on your last post.....dont take that into the cockpit....please.All i can say is 'dont pay for the type rating'.

[NoseGear]

scameron, you don't want advice, you want endorsement of your actions. You trot out some pretty weak arguments, but it boils down to the fact that your just bloody lazy. So you thought you would jump on here and appeal to the "long in the tooth" ppruners to get approval. Wrong move boy. You and all the pay for a TR children who just want to get there quickly just don't seem to realise the damage you ARE doing to the industry. You talk about Xanadu, well we had it, until you fools decided that paying for your training was the way "to get there quickly". It can't be that hard to understand, surely?:rolleyes:

"I am going ahead with paying for my own type rating, whither some of you other there like it or not, on 250 hours with a measly FAA CPL/ME/IR doesn't really cut much mustard out there, some of you may have forgotten that."

And just where do you think all the rest of us came from? Born with 5000 hours? No, its called hard work and persistance.

"All I've got is 'don't do it' and 'sellout' from people who already appear to be in a nice situation."

How the hell do you think we got to be in a "nice situation"? See above re: hardwork, persistance etc

"This is meant to be an informed debate" No its not, its a plea for sympathy and sanction.

The BA cadets are completely different from you, the airline is paying for their training. Of course 9/11 changed the face of the industry, just not the way your trying to use it as an excuse for your actions.

Nosey

[petesevenseven]

That's a tough one!!!!

Or maybe not......

Speaking from experience not so long ago I only had 273hrs!!!! No one wanted to look at me, I spent many months looking for employment, I spent countless hours over the phone and the internet getting knock backs!!! To be quite honest with you in the beggining It was rather embarrasing calling one of these companys up telling them I had a Grand Total of 273hrs and that I was happy to be of service!!!! Boy by the end of all the Knock backs and the No's and the "Sorry No Vacancies at the moment" or " It's hard to get you a work Permit" etc I was actually getting a kick out of all of it!!! I know it sounds a bit warped but knowing that I was gonna be told " Sorry no positions" (meaning there are no pilot positions going for someone like me with my grand total of 273hrs of mainly piston single flying) was kind of fun because it definately made me feel more relaxed over the phone or in person even cracking a joke with the interviewer to calm the mood!!!!

To cut a long story short ( I hope) after about 8 months of knock backs and feeling very guilty about the large some of money that I had just spent on getting my FAA COM/IR and getting nowhere, can you imagine I was even told I didn't have enough Experience to fly a C206!!!!! I was livid!!!!

I Finally decided that I was going to go and fork out even more money to do my instructor ratings and build time that way.

Then one very Hungover sunday at the pool just by chance I met up with the Chief Pilot of the company I ended up working for, we had a chat he decided that he'd give me a go, as they were desperate for F/O's, now because I was a forigner they had problems with bonding me so they made me pay for my rating but as it happend the Rating happend to be less than what I would pay for my CFI,MEI,CFII, and I was going to get Multi Crew, Multi Turbine you know all the good stuff and I was going to get payed!!!!!!! So thats what I did and 6 months later I was able to pay off my rating, I was off the ground and Life was good!!!

I know It's hard for you, I think all of us have been where you are I believe I was given a pretty good opportunity, and I know that most guy's or girls straight out of school would have done the same.

Now with my 2500 odd hours with all that pretty good stuff behind me. If you were to ask me to pay for a Rating, my answer to you would be Sorry but I don't pay to work, infact I left a company because they wanted me to fork out some unrealistic amount of money to continue to fly for them on their bigger fleet!!!!

My opinion is what you need to do is to get a job that gets you off the ground and up and running so to speak!!!! Now there are definately much cheaper way's of doing this than going of to American Eagle or who ever it might be and just handing them 44,000USD!!!!!

Did you ever consider going to Africa? There is tonnes of work going in Southern Africa, East Africa, you don't get payed much but you get that all important experience and foot in the door!!! And more importantly you will probably end up Saving 44,000 USD and having the adventures of a life time!!!!! I can definately say I did!!!!!!

At the end of the day mate it's up to you. I definately have to agree with the rest of the guys Persistance in the name of the game here!!!! Don't take no for an answer and explore all of your options before going out and handing someone or some organisation some vast some of money!!!!


Happy Landings,


Pete



:D

[scameron77]

First real piece of useful advice I've been given, thanks Pete, just had to wade through the bile.

Lets just clear up a few things:

Would I have preferred to have a future employer take up the strain of my 0-250 training costs? YES

Would I like to get a job that has a type rating attached? YES

I'm NOT advocating paying for a type rating, I'm SUGGESTING that its something that newly qualified pilots should research and give ample thought to.

When I look at everything from a distance and with my 'business' spectacles on I can see SOME sense in maybe shelling out £20k for a A320 family type rating based on a FO job at £18-20k, using Pete's own experience 8 months on the dole equates to around £14k salary for a net loss of £6k but you would expect around 500 hours on type in that time into the log book. I would say in the current climate that MAYBE could be considered break-even. That is if you are able to get that elusive job as soon as.

The above is based on the only model I have open to me so far, some bits may be generous, some conservative and some optimistic, also the market seems to change day by day at the moment.

With respect to me, nothing is definite at the moment, its just with examining the cold hard facts paying for my own type rating does APPEAR to have quite a few positives countered by 20,000 negatives, and don't get me wrong those 20,000 (if I opt for it) will hurt tremendously.

As for persistence and hard work, I've done plenty of spreadsheets and background research to help find a job when I get the final exam out the way.

Tropical Wave - Could you explain what you mean by 'later in your career you'll understand'. Can you please give me the advice so I can make an informed decision now? As for being harsh, you have seen the bashing I've taken?

There does seem to be a definite 'anti-DIY' movement from current line pilots, I just need to understand why this is. Would it be the fear that airlines may demand it in future from all currently employed pilots? Or comparable to a FAA pilot on 3,000 hours sitting 2 exams and getting his JAA ATPL opposed to the 14 toughies that everyone else has had to sit?

For some reason I can't but help remembering when I was in the reserve forces back home, we did some really bone, banal, pointless, in-efficient stuff to pass training courses and sat at night moaning constantly how we would change it. When it came time for the next batch of guys to come through, did we change anything? Did we give them an easier time? Hell no, because we had to do it the hard way.

Nosegear I do want advice, I'm crying out for it, unfortunately only a couple of people have offered it, maybe in between patronising me and the sound of you sharpening those knives drowned out my pitiful cries. I'm not looking for your endorsement, I'll do what I think is right for me based on what I learn.

Whats your beef? Surely by your reasoning if everyone out there paying for their own 0 to CPL training were to stop then the airlines would take up the cost? Or is it OK to pay to get to that stage then get employers to pay for the the additional training. Students of Naples, Rainbow, Riddle, Jerez, Oxford, we're on strike as from tomorrow until the big boys get their act together.

Unfortunately, it seems that so many people out there want to do this job and are prepared to go into serious debt to facilitate it, consequently I'd personally be surprised if anything to what was in place prior to 9-11 is rekindled. From my research before I started it appears that the best anyone starting out can hope for now is something like the Britannia £15,000 part sponsorship scheme with a long bond (remember no guarantees of employment with this). It may be the case that there are better offers out there but I haven't checked the sponsorship forum since I shelled out my cash, for fear of seeing something better or endorsing my decision, both options don't make pretty reading for me.

Training captains who hire CPL/IR's on 250 from Jerez and Oxford watch out, don't walk down dark alleys at night in Hong Kong. :)

[silverknapper]

Go on then, pay for your rating. You clearly want us to say it is a good idea - it's not.
BUT when you have a rating on your Airbus or Boeing who do you think will touch you with 250 hours TT and no experience on line? Nobody. Ezy won't entertain the thought. Guys from CTC are struggling with the transition, and they have come through a training scheme which EZY has audited and approved. And we are assuming you will actually pass the TR. The TR course doesn't teach you to fly so if your handling isn't up to scratch you'll fail. As for 767/A330, my sides are still hurting from reading that one!

[scameron77]

So what I can take from your post is:

a) You think there is no gain in paying for your own TR

b) If line training is offered along with a TR course then that would be most benefitial.

c) TR's centre on flight operations and proceedures in the specific aircraft rather than on teaching flying, it is assumed that you should be able to handle a heavy aircraft with adequate skill without additional instruction.

d) Job prospects aren't too good with minimums even with a valid TR.

e) You think it is folly to consider A330/B767

f) You need to visit the A&E at Bristol Royal Infirmary

As I said before, so often I'll be here for a while copy and pasting examples, I'm not dead set, I am doing research to see if its viable and would aid the career at this point. However I don't feel the hearty distain for suggesting such a path that has been levelled against me is wholly justified.

[Funkie]

Stephen – Hello!

I’m a wee bit confused as to where you are going with the TR thing.

Your last thread was looking for info on converting from FAA to JAR. Have you completely canned that idea?

If you choose to stay in the US I can’t help you and will make no further comment on this aspect of your situation.

However what I will say and it is my own opinion, that you should most definitely not buy a type rating purely on a speculative basis. For a start, I think you would find it nigh on impossible to find a job on a heavy category aircraft such as the A330 or B767 with a experience of less than 1500hrs, if not more. Have a look at the websites of the airlines which operate these types for clarification.

Furthermore, I believe that by buying a type rating, your are showing to your prospective employer that you're prepared to buy almost anything to get a job. Look at Ryanair, hell at one point you even had to pay them to open your CV… Where does it stop - line training, uniforms, sim checks, fleet changes, toilet paper, your P45 when you leave……..?:yuk:

Yes, there is movement in the UK employment market. Reading PPrune and Flight International will confirm this. If people continue to purchase TR’s, they only assist to degrade the T&C’s for everyone else that follows – just don’t do it mate.

Don’t you think your aiming a bit high? So many people aim to be in the RHS of a B737 or A319/320 after graduating, which I think is incredibly naive…. What’s wrong with starting at the bottom, getting the experience on a TP and then making a move!

As with your CPL/IR training, you did what you felt best suited your circumstances. If you feel buying a TR will boost your CV go for it. Personally, I think it would do more harm than good.

Good luck

Funkie

[Preston Watson]

Life is a gamble and taking a type rating is a big gamble without a secure job offer and knowing what type. If you got yourself a 737 rating, then what model who you go for? 737-200 is different from a 6-700NG and an 8-900NG rating (as I believe), so you take a gamble with that as well. If I were to go for a rating I'd think A320/B737 are the best bets and at an outside B757, for Europe.

I agree with the 'clan' that we shouldn't pay for type ratings, I can't even if I wanted to. It is clear to me that it helps the industry jepordise others in doing so. You've made your choice though, and sad to say but in this world people mainly care about themself, so good luck in your gamble.

Buzzzzz.....

[HappyPilot]

If I am to go for a TR based on me having 300 hours, a FAA and JAA CPL/ME/IR and ATPL(f) which manufacturer should I go for and which model? Why cant people just answer the ******* question? Some people on these forums use pprune as a means of letting out stored anger that has been built up over a long time. If anybody can please help answer Stephen's question, I'm sure he'll appreciate it. If your mouth is not part of the solution keep it shut.
HP

[silverknapper]

There was more than one question you jumped up :mad:

[Number Cruncher]

If you can afford it go and get a type rating. If you can go a little further, try and get some hours on type. Its do that or sit around like all the other 250 hour guys waiting for the phone to ring. It probably won’t.

Maybe you could get an instructor’s rating. Good idea but unlikely to make you much more employable than you are now. Go ask my instructor who’s not had a sniff after 4 years and 3,000 hours in a single. Or go ask the other instructor I know who after 2 years buzzing about in a Piper has bought a 737 TR and is now employed by a charter airline on the line.

Ultimately the choice is yours. You make your own luck to a large extent in this life. People will always be quick to slate those who buy ratings. They are usually those who cannot afford them, or those who are already airline pilots complaining of their degrading T&C’s, so either way you can’t win with these people.

Either way, whether you get taken on by an airline and have your typed paid for, they will re-coup their money somehow or other, probably via a reduced salary, so why not just go out there, get a type and earn a normal salary straight of.

As for what type, well, its got to be the 737 or the A320 series.

Good luck with whatever way you go.

[TolTol]

OMG I am so bloody confused as to what all these people that say "DONT BUY A TYPE RATING" are talking about. What other option is there??? Sit on our arse at home and wait for the industry to change?

Please give me a list of airlines that will pay for my type rating. Fancy asking Ryanair to pay for your type rating! Ha. :*

[Skunkworks]

Please give me a list of airlines that will pay for my type rating.

Why don't YOU give me a list of all the small cargo operators, taxi companies, parachuting clubs and Flight schools that you have applied to!?

Oh, THAT many...

[TolTol]

Why don't YOU give me a list of all the small cargo operators, taxi companies, parachuting clubs and Flight schools that you have applied to!?

How? I'm not qualified yet so what are you talking about?! Listen, I'm not geeky enough to get into an argument on a internet forum. But I, like many others want a "career" in a modern airline, that’s why I'm forking out 1000's on training, not to get a job with a parachuting or flight school. I've never even considered "small cargo operators or taxi companies". I just know that every newly qualified pilot that I know are paying for their own type rating, it sucks but that’s the way it is if you want that right-hand seat bad enough.

P.S. I'm not literally looking for a list of airlines that pay for the type rating, I'm just highlighting the fact that you have no other option when everybody else is paying for their type rating.

[Funkie]

TolTol,

I think you have missed the point. – Oh, and I’m not qualified either, but who said that you have to wait until you’ve received the blue book before you can contact airlines?

Nobody, and I mean nobody can go from Zero to Hero…. I think too many “wannabes” forget this.

This is not a slagging match, it is supposed to be an informed discussion about the pros and cons for buying a type rating.

Comments such as “I just know that every newly qualified pilot that I know are paying for their own type rating, it sucks but that’s the way it is if you want that right-hand seat bad enough.” does not help. Why not do a little back ground work of your own. You’re not a lemming are you? So why jump with the rest?

You do have an option. Don’t pay. Find an airline that may well bond you for a length of time, or at least one that gives you some degree of respect.

Rgds.

[TolTol]

Hi Funkie,

This is not a slagging match, it is supposed to be an informed discussion about the pros and cons for buying a type rating

I agree, but I didn't like skunk's attitude.

You’re not a lemming are you? So why jump with the rest?

No mate, are you?:p

Why not do a little back ground work of your own

I have, thats why I decided to get a degree after being adviced by current pilots that was the best thing to do, so I think that counts as doing background work.

You do have an option. Don’t pay. Find an airline that may well bond you for a length of time, or at least one that gives you some degree of respect

Okay I'll do a google on it right now!:p

[sjm]

So does this all apply to the guys that do the ctc scheme?

My understanding is that they all work for nothing for six months before going on to a salary with the sponsor airline, this has been going on for years now.

Lifes not fair:hmm: Its only rich kids who get to pay for type ratings is complete crap!! A few guys I know have saved very hard and all have hours on small turbo props before doing type ratings, have they not done their apprenticeship.

Quote from the biggest dash8-400 operator in the country " we have loads of guys with your exp on file" two weeks later they offer jobs to un-sim checked 250hr guys.

Same with another dash 8 operator, who put 250hrs guys on jets without sim ride over guys already on dash 8 waiting for upgrades to jet.

So the airlines will never play fair, its a business. they will try to claw back as much from a work force as possible one way or the other, be it reduced salaries, heavier rosters, inforced base changes etc..

Bmi baby £3000 up front £300 less a month if untype rated
Bmi Reg £2000 " £200 less " "
Jet2 £20000 " paid back less interest.
Fr £28000 " Peanuts for about nine months

All airlines, you pay if you want to have freedom to work where and for whoever and break a bond(fair in my view).

No matter how you spin it, do/dont pay for a type rating, you pay somewhere.

And a final note, those in a job if you dont like your t and c's then leave or strike over it as a last result, if its that bad, I some how doubt it though.

[Megaton]

No bond of any kind with BA. And a TR without hrs is useless but it does show a prospective employer that you have the ability to pass a TR. Make no mistake, the TR is harder than the IR and you will be expected to complete the rating in the 10 or so sim sessions allocated. So ask yourself how you coped with the IR. Was i difficult for you? If so, you may struggle with the TR.

[scameron77]

What is it says in the TV ad?

"Nothing is certain but death and taxes. Of the two, taxes happen annually" - Joel Fox

I do believe as SJM pointed out, if you don't pay for it here you'll pay for it there.

Being bonded doesn't guarantee you'll serve out your time with that company but if you are released for whatever reason I suspect you aren't held accountable for the pro-rata payment of a TR.

Mr Funk-soul-meister hello, hope you are well? Yes I did start a post on converting to JAA and I started this one on TR's to do my research well in advance of making a decision, just thinking ahead. I'm a good 4 months away from being in a position to make these choices, got some Garmin 1000 time to log first.

Happypilot has hit the nail on the head, so often (and I hold my hands up to doing this myself during the first six months of joining PPRuNe) threads degenerate into petty name calling rather than cold hard facts and tangeable experiences useful to the people lower on the ladder. I have tried to ask pertinent questions in threads that will aid others in future (if they know how to use the search function).

Preston, Number Cruncher, thank you both, for trying to bring the thread back onto information and facts rather than personal attacks directed at me for lets see . . . what have I been called so far . . . 'a sellout', 'lazy', 'bloody lazy', and have 'stars in my eyes'.

All I asked about was the feasibility and prospects for employment, not the ethics, of paying for a TR.

[20driver]

I say play the cards you are dealt - life is not fair and there is no use whinging about it.
If you have the cash or the means - buy the TR. Ignore the rumbling idiots on this site. A great deal of it is shared misery - I suffered through years of mac and cheese instructing etc - so should you. (Bet you have theses guys saying this don't or won’t admit to their getting a big leg up somewhere through luck, or acquaintance.)

If all these guys - who know what is good for you - say you are responsible for eroding T&C's - BOLLOCKS - They have the power to stop it. You go on a no paid TR strike how does that impact the airlines??? They go to their employers and say - start a bonded training scheme or we walk - Come on guys - do it for the good of the industry - you have the power. If your cojones are anywhere as big as your mouths you can do it.

You've got the cash or the means - from the sound of you you've earned it - so spend it how you like. Just remember - no guarantees - roll the dice and don't moan if you are the only type rated shelf stocker at Tesco's.
Remember - many airlines and the military hired zero hours and trained them with excellent results. The idea you need to do a bunch of serf time is just a way to subsidize flight schools etc. Search through these threads and there are many who mentioned getting hired with your time - it's luck, timing and the direction of the industry. (Which is up)

I’d suggest you really work at talking to people in the industry – maybe even get an airport job just to be on the inside of the fence. Your choice is the 737 or the 320 series. So see what company you’d like to work for – talk to people inside and go that way.

It’s all about what you want and you are prepared to do.
As Henry Ford said – “never complain and never explain”

PS - Personally - If I was single the idea if bashing around Africa or something like that would be fun. You never get a chance to do that kind of thing again.

To be a little more constructive

I would find out who you\'d like to work for - really learn everything you can about the company - stock - officers - routes plans - etc It is not that hard to figure out who will need bodies.
There is a lot of info out there about aircraft orders - leases etc

Then contact the CP or some of the training pilots -and ask them what they think of the various TRTO\'s. Work in ground ops - do everything to show you are ready to commit to working hard for them.

The key is to get to talk to people - if you have really done your homework and have a good attitude is shows and doors will open. That lets you turn the attitude of the LHS prima donna\'s posting here in your favor.

[Aletto]

hi all
i've have a jar cpl\ir atpl frozen and i would like to get a type rating on airbus 320 family or b 737. Anyone knows some airline companies in europe where can i do the type rating?

[south coast]

sorry on 2 points:

1, this topic has been covered if once, a million times!

2, start at the bottom and work your way up to a big plane, stop trying to jump the queue by paying for a rating, you are devaluing yourself, as also covered, probably in conjunction with the above mentioned topic you asked about.

why is it that new pilots in the uk all think they should start off on an airbus or boeing?

i have never come across such an ethos in flying before...

[ali1]

Hi there,

I agree, I waited 2.5 years for a job and was tempted at times to pay for a type rating. I got an instructors rating and worked as an instructor for 6 months. I learned a hell of alot and i think it held me in good stead for subsequent interview. I've now just done base check with my airline and I've not had to pay up front for the rating.

Hang in there try not to fork out lots of money and you'll get a job, the industry is on the up!!!

Ali1

P.S A few guys on my course who had paid for a rating had to do the whole thing again!!!

[portsharbourflyer]

ali and south coast, please rememeber that everyones situation is different.

For alot of people the pay cut to full time instructing is more than the price of a type rating with regard to lost earnings in a year. Also I have known alot of instructors who have still ended up paying for a type rating after instructing for several years.

So it really isn't surprising that people view paying for a rating as a way ahead.

Not an ideal situation but that is the way the industry has turned.

[Sean H]

so, the case is if i get a cpl/ir/mcc/meir frozen atpl some torbo prop airlines might hire me or do i need a type rating for small carriers, Example, do you need a type rating to fly a britten norman islander , like bringing tourists to islands or atr 42 or watever?

[portsharbourflyer]

A turbine islander needs a type rating, a piston islander would be covered by a MEP class rating. But as the islander is a single crew aircraft you will need 700 hours total time to operate under as a single pilot ifr on public transport operations.

Air Arran now run a sstr scheme for the ATR, so yes even turbo prop operators are branching into the sstr route.

[PROFE_AVIATOR]

Hi all

Which type rating can give you the opportunity to find a job?
B737 or A320?

[markflyer6580]

Neither unless you have the line hours afterwards,get a job that provides the type rating and save yourself a load of money.:)

[Sean H]

What airline will give you a free type rating?
ryanair?
aer arann?
easy jet?

[atccfi]

You realize you are paying for something a company that employs you should be paying for, right? Maybe you could offer to pay for the fuel while you are in training. Come to think of it, tell them you shouldn't be paid while in training, since you are just training after all. That aught to get you the job. Here's a novel idea.... Do some instruction, fly some cargo, do some air tours, earn your job!!! Don't pay for it!

[dboy]

It is very easy to say: "don't pay because of this or that.....".
Everybody is saying "it is getting better" and so on. So if it is getting better, why am i and my colleagues still on the ground after those few hundred application letters???

So PROFE if you have the money and you lack about ethics, go for it!!!!

good luck

[PROFE_AVIATOR]

I' m thinking about A320, but I' m not so sure, if after it I can find a job with no hours on type!!!(A320):O

[wbryce]

Dont pay for a type rating, put your money to a good cause and pay for my CPL / IR!

Help another pilot out! We all look out for each other......dont we....?, hello...anyone hear me? damn PTT button again...hello? :E

[B200Drvr]

I agree that you should not pay for a rating.
Put that money towards paying for your instructors rating. An employer will see hours as a greater asset than a rating with no hours.
Working off a bond is a better way, that way you get both.
Having a couple of hundred hours is always going to be hard, but there are jobs because there is movement, start at the bottom.
A 300 hr pilot with an A320 rating is worth nothing, a 1000 pilot without a rating is worth more because he knows more.

[First.officer]

quote: "A 300 hr pilot with an A320 rating is worth nothing, a 1000 pilot without a rating is worth more because he knows more."
correction: a friend has just got a job with a well known charter operation and paid for his own type rating (A320 etc.) with roughly the hours (300) as stated above - by my calculations he's now worth approx. 30-50k per annum - guess he turned out to be worth something after all !! :E

[B200Drvr]

Yes, sure and if you believe that then go and do the same thing, and further to that, just please let me know which airline is hiring 300 hr pilots so I know who not to fly with.
In an emergency with an incapacitated captain, at night in thunderstorms and windshear when you low on fuel, who would you rather have sitting up front?
Personnel opinion, I would want the guy who has flown 1000 hrs of contract or charter sitting there.

[Nimbus5]

Dear B200Drv,

I'd rather have the guy with 300 hours up front since you don't seem to have the sense to speak up before your Captain gets low on fuel, gets near a thunderstorm or anywhere near windshear.

[B200Drvr]

Nimbus,
If youre so smart you would have read that the captain is incapacitated.
But then thats why I said I would have the 1000hr pilot, because you dont seem to look at the whole picture.
By the way, just for info sake, you cant always tell windshear and turbulance, but then 1000hr pilots know stuff like that;)
PS, By the way I am a Captain:ok:

[Nimbus5]

I did read the whole thing. Sounds like what you're saying is that after your Captain became incapacitated, you flew the plane into a thunderstorm or windshear. No you don't always know where the windshear is, but there are a few good clues and the 300 hour guy and the 1000 hour guy both know to avoid them. As for low fuel, never should happen in the first place and most likely won't with a good two man crew checking each other and backing up, no matter how many hours they have.

My main point is that if you want to argue the guy with 1000 hours is really better, at least pick a reasonable example. Give me an example where a guy with 300 hours ran low on fuel and show how his lack of experience set him up for it (and explain how the Captain let it happen since presumably he was at full capacity when they topped the tanks up before departure). But when your argument is a red herring, don't get upset when someone calls you account for it.

By the way, I would hope the guy with 1000 hours has zero hours experience extricating an airplane from either windshear or thunderstorms

[First.officer]

You know what B200Drvr, i agree totally that there is absolutely no substitute for experience aka the scenario's you've painted so eloquently in your posts, but we all have to start somewhere - i presume you managed to get your 1000 hrs+ by flying charter, contract or wherever and whatever else as you mention these in your post ? - bully for you, i agree that in these particular situations you may well have that "extra" something over and above the 300 hr. guy but it still remains that this guy has completed a recognised course of training, approved by the relevant authorities i might add, and has then gone on to complete a multitude of company SOP's and emergency procedures in the simulator - and if both the CAA and the company concerned are happy, then i see no reason to doubt the 300 hr. guys ability, given time in the job he/she will soon acrue the all to valuable time that we all need and desire to make us more competent and better pilots and meet standards that people such as yourself would demand in your fellow pilot. Remember, we all start somewhere and he/she is just starting in a different way to you, doesn't make it wrong because it doesn't fit in with the pattern you may have followed in your career path.
As for avoiding this company because they may have employed someone who doesn't match your requirements, hey, that's your perogative, but i happen to know the company has an excellent safety record within the industry and i'm more than willing to mail the name to you should you like to then go and check the figures with the CAA to prove this statement.

[TolTol]

PS, By the way I am a Captain

Would hate to have you as my captain looking down your nose at me with my 300hrs:O

[B200Drvr]

Guys,
You are missing my point entirely.
Toltol, Firstly I dont look down my nose at anybody and as an instructor I realise that everybody has to start somewhere, you just dont start on an A320.(my opinion to which I am entitled)
The scenario I pointed out did not happen to me or anybody I know or have heard of. The point I was trying to make is that at 300 hrs there are very few people in history that have the experience to handle multiple emergencies in a machine as complex as the one you are descibing. If you think a 300 hr pilot has experience then you have alot to learn because pilots with 20 X's the hours are still learning every flight every day.
There is a difference between "better" & "more experienced" I never said a 1000 hr pilot was better, I simply said more experienced.

[englishal]

You realize you are paying for something a company that employs you should be paying for, right? Maybe you could offer to pay for the fuel while you are in training. Come to think of it, tell them you shouldn't be paid while in training, since you are just training after all. That aught to get you the job. Here's a novel idea.... Do some instruction, fly some cargo, do some air tours, earn your job!!! Don't pay for it!
Yea right. So when I go for a job as Director of ICI and they say "you need an MBA" I'll just say "ok then, that's fine, I'm clever enough so you pay for it and give me the job".......;)

Anyway, you do end up paying for the TR whatever you do. Either through lower salary and bonding or somhow else. My mate flies the Airbus, he got his TR paid for but for 6 months he earns £1000 per month, then £31000 until 1000 hours on type then £39,000..........Oh and this was after instructing for several years and the hours thaty go with it.

If I wanted to fly Boeings or Airbuses I'd do it.

[Nimbus5]

B200drvr's original post here recommended to get an instructor rating and build hours rather than buy a type rating. I must state that I do agree one should not buy a speculative type rating, though I do think it's fine to pay for a TR if you have a conditional job offer requiring that. The only exception to that opinion would be getting a speculative TR from GECAT, but their selection criteria is very, very high. If you pass their selection though, you can be about 99% sure of ending up with a job after their TR course.

One thing you should be aware of when building hours as an instrcutor is that many airlines apply a factoring system to instructor hours, wherein you get credit for these hours on a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio. This means to get credit for 1000 hours instructor time, you might have to build 2000 or 3000 hours depending on which airline you apply to. This might seem unfair, but the point is that when you are instructing, you are not normally on the controls the whole time so some airlines prorate your time by factoring.

I don't post this to change the debate to one about the pros and cons of factoring, or the relative value of instructor experience, rather merely to point out that factoring exists as those considering the instructor hour building route need to be aware of this policy.

Finally, the last guy I know who bought a speculative type rating took two years to find his first job in type. If he'd added an instructor rating, he would have at least been getting paid to fly during those two years instead of begging, borrowing and stealing to stay current. (The latter is not far from the truth either as he was logging off the financial books 737 sim time through rather dubious means!)

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I don't think it's a good idea to get to much time doing instruction if you want to make progress towards the airlines. It's good for a while to build hours but it just becomes a rut after a bit. At the end of the day you're not flying the plane! I have given about 500hrs of instruction myself so I do have some idea what I'm talking about.

I do agree with B200 driver that a 1000hr pilot is more qualified to fly an A320/B737 than a 300hr pilot. Varied general aviation experience and some turbo hours would make a very good pilot indeed. Some of the 300hr guys seem to lose sight of the fact that more hours would make them better flyers than just a TR. The problem is that many of the airline recruitment people seem to have lost the plot as well. Given the choice between an experienced none rated flyer and a 300hr guy with a TR many seem to be taking the type rated pilot. If you can afford the TR with some line time to back it up then go for it. I'm very tempted to buy a TR myself even though I know I shouldn't. I'd go for the 737NG; should make you employable for years to come; if you pass with low hours!

[First.officer]

Have to say that your absolutely right fair weather flyer - your comments certainly sound reasonable to me - i equally agree with B200Drvr's comments about a 1000hr+ guy being more suitable for certain situations that may arise over and above the 300hr+ guy's experience. My main gripe was (and still is) the way in which many, many people here on the forum are completely and utterly hell bent on jumping from a great height on anyone who may dare to utter the words "anyone recommend a good TRTO ?" etc., etc. - just seems completely unfair to me ! (and i'm sure that most of the guys asking these types of question are under no illusions and would agree that the more hours and experience you gain, the more proficient a pilot you'll become). I agree that the thinking within the airline world with regard to recruitment these days may have a lot more to do with financial aspects than years previous but markets have changed and they will adapt to maintain a competitive edge in a fierce marketplace, this being one method of cost-cutting at their disposal should a TR'ed candidate make the grade at interview level - not defending the situation, just the way it is at the moment as i see it and we all want the best for ourselves don't we ?.
Have to admit i also wonder about some peoples' point of view with regard to SSTR's when they're admonished about enquiring about SSTR's and informed they're "jumping the queue" (admittedly not on this thread but i've seen it on others) - i wasn't aware of any official queue or right to be employed by an airline given a certain time served in the air, i thought it was a case that like all other jobs, you have to prove yourself as a suitable and worthy candidate for the position - please correct me if i'm wrong on this point and i'll gladly wait my turn in line.
Lastly, apologies if i appear a "grumpy sod" - i'm not, just feel the need to address a situation as i see it at the moment - and i sincerely hope that all of us (high or low hours) eventually gain the position we all work so damned hard for and spend are hard earned money on sooner rather than later.

[sexychic]

I'm going to be doing my type rating in the next month or so and wondered waht all you wannabe pilots think. Am i seriously wasting my time and money on it?:ugh: