BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat

[Litebulbs]

Im sure the figures of sickness will make the afternoon news broadcasts.

[OscarCOG]

Having followed this thread from the beginning here are a few observations. :hmm:
The often quoted 96% support is actually 96% of BASSA members who voted. :eek:
Those who voted to strike 8300 divided by CC in BA 14500 is a less than impressive 57% :eek:
It seems the majority of CC are striking over a perceived threat rather than the issues in the ballot. :uhoh:
The Union (at the 11th hour) have realised this and are making the AMP policy the MAIN issue. :ugh:
Before the AMP policy CC Average sick days 22 per year
After the AMP policy CC Average sick days 12 per year
UK Average sick days 7 per year.
Before the AMP policy BA Flight Crew Average sick days 8 per year
After the AMP policy BA Flight Crew Average sick days 8 per year
I suppose that is why BASSA started the Sealed Flight Deck with Oxygen Rumour :suspect: Must have taken Flying Lawyers advice to discredit uncomfortable comparisons :)
So.......
Virgin CC sickness 9 days per year
Low cost carriers CC sickness 8 days per year
Middle East 5 Star Airlines < 6 days per year
Outside the Box... Doctors (don't they see sick people all the time) 7 days per year.
Must be something about BA CC. Sensitive souls or complete skivers! (or to throw you a bone ... Poor rostering and management policy on leave)
BASSA has brought you to the edge of a Great Victory! :yuk:
WW can't believe his luck. A divided workforce. Pilots flying freight and some services to maintain an income. As more and more strike breakers drift back to work more and more services will resume. In 12 weeks all the hardcore spongers will be sacked. :*
The current BASSA leadership will be on WW's Christmas Card list for a long long time.:D

[Juud]

Not knowing even one BA flight attendant, and without even beginning to understand the complexities of their working agreements, there are 3 issues on this thread that I want to comment on.

Work ethic & management quality
If BA CC sick days indeed peak during British events such as Ascot and Wimbledon, there is something badly wrong with the mentality of those who fraudulently call in sick. There is also something badly wrong with the management capacities and strategies of those who have allowed such a culture to develop.

Sick days include maternity leave
According to a poster on this thread, BA counts maternity leave for CC as sick days. My own company (8000+ CC) does the same, so I find this claim plausible.
Extensive international research has led to the recommendation that CC stop flying as soon as pregnancy has been confirmed. I don´t know if BA follows this practice (my company does) but let´s conservatively say BA FAs only stop flying from the second pregnancy trimester. That´s 180 sick days until the baby is born. I don´t know how much maternity leave BA FAs get but lets, again conservatively, say they get 8 weeks after giving birth. That´s another 72 days. Totalling roughly 250 days.
250 days which management unfairly and misleadingly puts into its statistic as sick days.

Women of child bearing age form a vastly larger percentage of the FA population then of the pilot population. This means that the practice of including maternity leave into the sick days statistic renders null and void any and all comparisons between the relative amount of sick days for pilots and cabin crew.
A sneaky and unfair management trick ( surprise anyone?) used to divide and conquer on the aeroplane and to make CC look like complete p!ss takers in the eyes of the general public.

On your feet vs on your bum
The following is empirical rather than scientific. My own experience, and that of all the CSD colleagues I have discussed this with over the past year.
For 24 for years I was an FA/Purser on both long and short haul. Always serving a full complement of passengers their food and drinks and extensively and intensively interacting with ´my´ passengers. On my feet in other words.
Last year I became a LH CSD. Still mainly on my feet, sitting down only to do the necessary admin. But no more serving of food and drinks, and no more continuous interacting with 50 pax, trying to balance the immediate needs of each individual passenger with quickly and efficiently getting food and drinks to all my pax.
The substantial difference in bone-weary tiredness has been an enormous surprise to me. Yes the jetlag still hits, as does working at altitude and for longer stretches than is normal in a ground based job. But my tiredness now is NOTHING compared to the crushing, soul-destroying skull-numbing physical & mental exhaustion of being an FA.

This difference was not something I had ever thought about, nor had I expected it. It came as a total and complete (but wonderful ;) ) surprise to me.

So what is the point I am illustrating?
Unless you have worked full-time as an FA for at least 5 years, you have no idea what you are talking about when regarding the (cummulative) effect the job has on your mind and body.

So for the pilots on this thread who in good faith believe that it is logical to compare CC sickness rates to pilot sickness rates because we all work on the same aeroplane; you are comparing 2 things that are entirely different in nature.
The comparison is as seductive as it is null and void.


Best wishes to all BA employees and their passengers for a fair, speedy and non-disruptive solution of this looming conflict.

[CamelhAir]

Juud

That's a fair and balanced post. The point about maternity leave is very interesting and puts a wholly different spin on the sick day numbers if a similar system prevails in BA.

My point to detractors of the BA T&C's from other cc and pilots is this: Stop the bleating that they have it so lucky. Aim high. As a ryanair pilot I wholeheartedly reject the notion that everyone should "enjoy" loco t&c's. Such attitudes are ruining the industry both sides of cockpit door. Aim to improve, not drag the rest down with you. I seek to improve my lot and I hope that others retain a better lot, otherwise what am I, and the rest of the fr crew, supposed to aspire to? Do you all think that knocking the company that sets the t&c standards is going to improve you lot??
The race to the bottom is, to a great extent, self-perpetuating. Shame on those who seek help this hateful system and play into the hands of psychopaths such as WW and mol.
Good luck to the BA cc. Looks like you'll need and I hope you'll get it. Without a strong union, we, all of us air crew, are dead in the water in terms of making a meaningful career in aviation. I hope this works out for you.

[6chimes]

Well said JUUD and CamelhAir. I have been saying the same thing here many times over. The typical image of the role of cabin crew is not helping us, it is in fact hindering our careers. It is time that the reality of our role was taken into the public arena.

6

[GLS 62]

I wonder at the wisdom of CC posting on a public forum. It seems to attract comments from people who have no personal knowledge of CC working life. Possibly a private forum for BA CC is the answer.
It's been some years since I retired from TT. I worked mainly in small station operations: taking WX obs, working up weight and balance. Basically anything that did not involve handling aircraft controls or turning a wrench. I worked closely with aircraft crew and as a young man dated more than a few FA.
I don't remember anyone taking unnecessary sick leave. ALL crew and station people were union. A bid committee put together bid lines to cover all flights that management scheduled. These were bid monthly. A simular system was used in stations. Seniority RULED. If you were scheduled on a day you needed off , you found someone to trade with or worked YOUR schedule. We were such a fine small company to work for. Untill Lorenzo took over. Most of the people I worked with either went to form Southwest, left because of Lorenzo or retired from Contental .
Good luck to BA CC.
I don't claim to understand UK labor law and have no connection to BA. However sounds like bid lines would give you more control over your life.

[nurjio]

OscarCOG - I love it. Trust me, the majority of BA CC believe that - 'Dulce bellum inexpertis'. :}

[nurjio]

Hey 6chimes, er, what, exactly, is the typical image of the role of cabin crew then? eh?
Ahem.... and while your at it, what is, exactly, the reality of 'our' role you wish to take into the public arena?
Are you a cult member or summat?

[Lucifer]

Juud,

All very well and balanced, but it does not explain why the Virgin CC and lo-co CC rates are lower than BA's by quite a lot.

[Litebulbs]

Lucifer

It doen't does it. So, maybe look for a solution for the cause of the problem, rather than patching the result!

[Deltahero]

Oh, give us a break!!!
I know there are brilliant, caring and intelligent Crew - at least I've been told there are, but some of them are so naive. They believe they're invisible at Ascot ( and Windsor evening racing ), when Ground staff who see them regularly attend after or before (!!) their antisocial shifts. WE KNOW the truth of the stereotype Crew member - cos we marry them, go out with them or are family members. Don't try to fool us; we know the full SP!!
Move on now, accept that most of the time, the job's a dream and your conditions are peachy. At least they have been up to now. If you don't turn up next week you can just say goodbye to all that. It really will be the end of the good times, for you and for everyone else.
Thanks a lot!!

[OscarCOG]

nurjio
"Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori"
or should you replace Country with Union (BASSA)!!! :rolleyes:
Oscar

[Litebulbs]

Deltahero

So 10000+ crew are like that, are they?

[Litebulbs]

Oh, and don't start talking about death, that will really sent deltahero over the edge!

[Deltahero]

No litebulbs. My other half isn't, my brother isn't; my friends aren't but all of them agree they're working daily with colleagues that embarrass them. They take liberties and are sloppy, and what really winds my partner up is they feel oh so superior to Ground staff who take the pain and filter the baddies before they get on board. What's really got her goat, is the cavalier way in which BASSA can con her Crew colleagues that the strike(a) is right and just, and (b) will be successful. Doh!!!
My bro sees the job he joined 10 years ago and loves about to change drastically with the ableassistance of WW and BASSA working in concert.

[Litebulbs]

What, all crew are like that? Its a bit of a libelous statement, isn't it?

[Deltahero]

Knew you'd eventually get personal Lightbulbs, once you'd run out of anything else to say. We are all going to regret this, sadly I believe you will have to admit that one day. Let's stop the madness now for both our sakes, and the other 40+ thousand BA staff, not just 10K crew.

[OscarCOG]

Litebulbs
No. Not all CC are like that but even if a small percentage are like that then that is why the sickness average is so high!
Ohhh! and while we are on the subject didn't BASSA sign up to the AMP one year after the rest of the company after they were offered a "bribe" of a couple of grand for every CC member? :O
Not all CC are like that but the Facts remain:
Fact: 700 CC go sick every day. :eek:
Fact:BA employ 1000 extra CC to cover this. :eek:
Fact: Even after AMP.....CC sickness dropped from 22 to 12 (60% higher than other airlines):=
Don't worry it's not the fall that kills you.....only the ground at the end! :(

[Litebulbs]

I'm not getting personal, but it seems that if you are not related in someway to your family, you are sloppy etc. That is a very harsh statement.

[Deltahero]

Forgive me Litebulbs; I'd hate you to feel I've been harsh. It's just my future and the future of people I love. I can't imagine why I feel so passionate about this.
Now dig deep and admit you've come up against Crew that, er shall we say disappointed you, some time in the distant past. I admit ( easy to do actually ) that I've been served adequately by many Crew.
I truly believe that from now on you, Litebulbs and I are going to see more and more unhappy faces on board. Now how am I going to handle that??? I'm already iffy about the on board service; it can only get worse once WW has his pound of flesh after winning ( sadly it's got to the stage of winners and losers ) hands down the fight HE HAS to win.

[Litebulbs]

Look deltahero

Their is not point having a go at each other, because we are at the bottom of the food chain.

BA CC terms and conditions were there before Mr Walsh turned up. BA is making shed loads of cash. BA has a 10% operating margin. I would imagine that WW has no brand loyalty, but I bet you and your family have.

I must state again, I no longer work for BA, but will still hopefully be a BA pensioner. I was in the unique position of being one of the few jobs at BA who get paid less than the market rate, so I left.

[atyourcervix73]

No litebulbs. My other half isn't, my brother isn't; my friends aren't but all of them agree they're working daily with colleagues that embarrass them. They take liberties and are sloppy, and what really winds my partner up

A perfect example of some of the rubbish CC managers about. If they were competent, had an ounce of ability, or at the very least, had some people management skills...a large proportion of these problems wouldn't exist:=

[Gonzo]

One point about the possible motivation of calling in 'sick' being to take 'some control over days off'.... I assume then that at induction/training, BA CC are told that they do have control over which days off they'll get, thus them all being surprised when they start working on the line and seeing the reality, and thus motivating them to call in sick.

If however, the way the roster works is explained to them, what's the problem?

From those CC whom I know that do take the pi$$ regarding calling in sick, this 'taking control of days off' is a load of tosh....they just don't want to go to work and would rather spend the day at home/out shopping/generic sporting event.

[Deltahero]

[quote=Litebulbs;3089955]Look deltahero

Their is not point having a go at each other, because we are at the bottom of the food chain.

Quite right Litebulbs, and I'm genuinely concerned about my situation already. I'm sorry you left as you're obviously still passionate, but this is my bread and butter. It doesn't kill me that some people have been having the jam - that's life, but I want them to appreciate it.
AYC seems to think that this is management speak, well my old manager would be laughing in his grave if he heard that. As a convenor I was a pain in his butt.
Nice talking with you Litebulbs. I'm up at 3am for my early and hope to talk again - maybe we'll acheive something out of this hopeless situation.

[Deltahero]

Sorry AYC. Re read you and think I got it right this time. You were knocking Crew managers, not me.
Very tired- hate these earlies. Glad I'm not crew - GAWD! Did I say that?
Ninight.

[visibility3miles]

Cabin crew are in close quarters with passengers so probably are more likely to get sick from whatever new bug the pax are carrying. It might be more useful to compare their rates of sick leave to the ticket counter agents or security screeners than comparing it it to pilots who these days have much less contact with the general public, or to baggage handlers, who may have less contact.

The pax will often fly when sick to avoid missing a vacation or business meeting, so the CC will encounter sick people, often ones in their most contagious stages of infection.

Obviously, calling in sick as a form of protest is separate from the above, but lets not compare apples and oranges.

An early post on this thread said they debated whether to count cervical cancer towards sick days, if I recall correctly, which strikes me as insane or incredibly cynical. (Cynical in that cervical cancer is often deadly and quick.)

Still, the news here says they may cancel 1300 flights, which has to hurt.

[900]

All very interesting but I have been watching BASSA / T&G and this is basically an attempted mugging that they now realise has gone t**ts up and are desparate to find a way out of. They were asking for guarantees on discounted incidences of sickness - i.e. irrespective of an individual's sickness record. Presumably a negotiating line but one they must have been confident would end up working in the favour opf the most frequent who are taking liberties. Despite WW accepting their most recent wording they have backtracked since Dromey was made to sound stupid on BBC R4 "Today" Programme. It is not a question of disputing whether or not someone is fit to fly (or do any other work for that matter) if they say they are not. What is more to the point is challenging why some people have greater incidences of illnesses (especially discountable ones) than colleagues or similar folk in similar jobs in the industry. What is it about their lifestyle or physiology that makes this happen - can that be changed / improved or (in the final analysis) is this the sort of work they should be doing?

Coupled with this is an interest as always with BASSA of feathering nests - not usually those most in need but more often their own cronies. Why are they after a pay settlement when they know that BA had to sort pensions first. What about A Scales, engineers, pilots, managers, anyone? Why should BASSA simply make unsupported demands and expect BA to cough up? Who is doing the bullying here?

BASSA cancelled 1 x day of action as they knew the stakes were ratcheting up when the flight cancellations were due. BASSA are split but it seems the radicals are in the ascendency - do they want this settled or are they looking for some real action. What is the true agenda? BASSA have never looked out for the weakest in their ranks only the noisiest. I have heard that the costs of IA in real terms are going down every day as the costs are already incurred by lost bookings, refunds etc. In excess of £30m already. The Co. has taken this and is still not blinking!

It seems that the way they expect to run industrial relations is "we give nothing, demand more and you roll over -if you are lucky we won't do it too often" And not to forget we will personalise publically, send poisen pen letters and intimidate. "If a captain downroute should attempt to criticise our actions, record his name and report him to BASSA" What pray will BASSA then do with this information? Watch what you eat guys and hide your cars!

Its up to the CC when all is said and done. Follow them if you like but you will regret it as they don't know what they really want and don't know what success might look like. A deal on EG300 + pensions could have extricated them from embarrassment but like a child in a tantrum they continue to wail.

An amusing rumour that BASSA have advised the Met that they will picket from 08.00 to 16.00 on the strike days - that's dedication for you!

Oh and are the key BASSA players rostered on duty on Tuesday next?

[OscarCOG]

Juud. In reply to your post Pg 39 Post 763
Work ethic & management quality
BA CC sick days do indeed peak during British events such as Ascot and Wimbledon, (there is nothing wrong with the mentality of those who fraudulently call in sick apart from the fact they know the system will let them get away with it)! Or used to anyway. :} There is also something badly wrong with the management capacities and strategies of those who have allowed such a culture to develop. The management is trying to change this…. Hence the strike.:hmm:
Sick days include maternity leave
Maternity leave is included but has a negligible effect on the figures as the lucky Mums are placed into ground jobs until a few weeks before the joyful day. :rolleyes:
On your feet vs on your bum
SH do work harder than LH. Shouldn’t they be paid more? :confused: A few ex SH feel extremely bored when they come to LH until they realise they can sleep for a few hours every trip!
FA/Purser to the heady heights of CSD. :) Congratulations, but if you are finding it such a difference look in the mirror.:E Have you turned into one of those Video Watching/Paper reading Managers that CC and FC despise equally.:ok:
So what is the point I am illustrating?
The job does have a cumulative effect on you which is why you are paid accordingly! But for BA CC still 60% above the industry average.:ugh:
Comparing 2 things that are entirely different in nature. Correct! Chalk & Cheese……You have no idea of the pressure of flying a 200 tonne ac into one of the busiest airports in the world in ****ty conditions with the lives of 300+ passengers in your hands. (although I do still get the “We fly the same aeroplane we should get the same perks ********”):rolleyes: OOOOKKKKKKKKKKKK:mad: Your training time 4 weeks.... My training time 3 Years! :D
But I do agree with your last comment! (Apart from replacing looming with imminent and destructive) :( :{ :(
Best wishes to all BA employees and their passengers for a fair, speedy and non-disruptive solution of this looming conflict.

[Midland63]

Will you allow a quick interjection from an SLF not employed by BA (or any other airline)?

To Britain's general public, CC have a "dream job" so striking about pay and conditions is NOT going to get any sympathy from Joe Public. All the papers etc. will report is "My holiday chaos hell" type stories with all sympathy to the traveller and none to the strikers.

I know NOTHING about whether BA CC have a legitimate grievance or not but I DO know you have to be able to sell your case to the public and get the media on your side. Call it "spin" if you will but BA CC haven't done this - you don't have the right "spin doctors" on your side.

Meantime, I would not book a flight with BA through LHR in the long term paying full fare (as opposed to bagging a "cheapie" off the website to fly tomorrow). BA/LHR have had too many "banana skins" recently and this strike will just be the latest in a long line. KLM/AF and Lufthansa (etc.) offer just the same via AMS/CDG/FRA (etc.) and, all other things being equal, that's what I would do rather than risk my plans being upset by another of BA/LHR's periodic "disruptions".

Just the view of an average SLF on the street.

M63

[TopBunk]

Would someone care to speculate why BASSA refuse the seemingly sensible suggestion of involving ACAS? They talk about always being ready to talk, why not involve an arbitration service?

[Rainboe]

Because this is the old time Socialists of the TGWU who are fighting a far larger battle than people realise. It is for control of who really runs BA in the run-up to moving to Terminal 5. Quite simply they do not want 'a settlement'. Like Napoleon leading his army against the Brits at Waterloo, the TGWU is sending in early a regiment (BASSA) to try and blunt a front of Wellington's army (BA) in to soften it up before the real cavalry charge comes. That will be when the spiteful groundstaff battle commences, and really shuts down the airline later this, or next, year. The TGWU has no interest in settling this- it's really just part of a wider strategy of, and make no mistake on this, who controls BA. It's been the ground unions up to now. Meanwhile, shame about the troops in the first wave of the attack, they're going to get hammered, but that's the price you pay for war. There is still a lot of fighting to come by the heavies. BA will win this one, but the next ones won't be so easy.

[Flying Lawyer]

Entirely speculation but, since you ask -

It's possible that Bassa fears the consequences of having its demands, and arguments in support of those demands, exposed to close examination by an independent and experienced body such as ACAS.

The leaders may feel they'll achieve more by force (striking or threatening to strike) because that doesn't require having to justify demands as reasonable.

It may or may not be significant but, despite numerous requests in the course of almost 800 posts, even the most active and enthusiastic posters on the Bassa side have steadfastly declined to be drawn into a discussion of the specifics.

Rhetoric is all very well in this sort of debate and, of course, can be an extremely effective device to whip up large crowds, but arbitrators aren't influenced by rhetoric: They consider facts and reasoned arguments.

[SNasty]

[snip]Meanwhile, shame about the troops in the first wave of the attack, they're going to get hammered, but that's the price you pay for war. There is still a lot of fighting to come by the heavies. BA will win this one, but the next ones won't be so easy.

They used to refer to the first wave as the Forlorne Hope.... Apt eh...

[Andy_S]

It's interesting that there's been no word yet on last nights talks. One would have thought that if they'd broken up without any progress being made that the finger pointing and mutual recrimination would have started pretty quickly.

If Tony Woodley feels obliged to consult with the BASSA reps before saying anything publicly, maybe he feels there's a face saving deal on offer?

[Ancient Observer]

What is the current betting within BA about
1/ The future of lhr and lgw based S/H routes after a strike?
Basically, BA do not want many of them. When BMed fails, Bishop will have both BMed and BA S/H slots.

2/ The salary of the top BASSA official, which is rumoured to be the highest in the T&G?
The T & G want to "merge" BASSA in to the T&G

3/ The 2007 BA CC sickness rate coming down to the UK norm of 4 days? (The norm is 7 days only if you include all blue-collar jobs such as cleaners. For white collar jobs it is 4 days.)

Has anyone noticed the cash that BA is currently carrying in its balance sheet? Quite enough to take this series of strikes, and the planned series of strikes by ground staff in the fit for 5 campaign.

thanks
a (currently ex-) customer, or, nowadays, SLF.

[lord mash]

Well i am glad the BA CC are making a stand whether or not you think the issues they are striking over are minor your entitled to your opinions.

What i really want to see raised by the media is the even worse terms and conditions cabin crew from other airlines work under.
BA is considered to be among the very best T&C, the rest of us are under even more pressure.eg bullying over sick days, pressure to work even more sectors when tired out, lack of meals, nowhere to sit on a 12 hour shift and doing another 12 hour shift the following day for up to 6/7 days on etc etc and not talkng about long haul here either, cant afford to pay anything into a pension scheme. - Trouble is its all being presented in the media as another problem for BA please somebody reading this in the press take a look at how we have to do our jobs and the terms and conditions we do it under and please no smart replies about if you dont like it get out. We love working but why should we have to accept the worst T&C in order to do that? Tthis is 2007 i dont think we have progressed so much from the the 19 century sometimes. Wake up everyone in order to pay £50 to fly somewhere on holiday the cabin crew will be working for about £1.70ph in some cases for 6/7 days on and minimum rest and no control over their working week whatsoever. Forget the trolly dolly programmes on TV and Airline even animals get better treatment then some cabin crews. If BA crews get a result it should have a knock on effect down the industry line so dont giveup guys please!

[bosshogg]

lord mash.

How do you conclude that quote - You have to accept the worst T&C's.

Do you not accept that many people across the UK have to work under worse T&C's than your goodself?

Do you not accept that many people across the UK manage to carry out their employment without the need for such ridiculous sick leave levels?

I note a previous comment that tried to justify these sick leave figures by pointing out the number of people (Possibly sick) that CC come into contact with... come on please.. what would teachers, nurses, shop assistants, in fact anyone in a service/retail industry have to say about that?

I have no affiliation to BA whatsoever but I agree there are for more sinister undertones to this proposed strike and BA CC are not likely to get much sympathy from the paying public.

[CEJM]

@Lord Mash,


Wake up everyone in order to pay £50 to fly somewhere on holiday the cabin crew will be working for about £1.70ph in some cases for 6/7 days on and minimum rest and no control over their working week whatsoever. !
the minimum wage in the UK is £5.35ph so you can't excactly say that the crew are working for £1.70ph. If that would be the case you have a very strong case against your company when demanding a pay rise.

You don't want any smart comments. the following is not a smart comment but the thruth.

When you signed your eployment contract you knew what your payslip would look like. There is no point in complaining about it after you signed your contract. There is a way in solving this issue and that is that nobody accepts such a working practise. If the company's at the lower end can't get any staff because they don't pay enough they have to increase the pay. Because without staff no airline. But if you increase it to much and the airline is not competitive anymore than they won't need any staff because they have no passengers.

You say you love your job. Why don't you apply to BA? Work for a 'better' :hmm: company and receive more pay.

[oojamaflip]

I have to say that I think BASSA is letting down it's membership by allowing itself to be taken apart by BA in the PR battle.

Figures like 22 sick days per year have become public (despite the fact that the figure is 12 days) and have not been robustly challenged. One point that has been raised is that maternity leave is included in the figures. Despite what was mentioned in an earlier post, not all pregnant cabin crew work in ground duties. Once crew know they are pregnant, they can no longer fly and if they live a certain distance away from LHR (think it's 50 miles - not sure), they are not liable for ground duties. A rough calculation of 180 days from announcing pregnancy to birth and knocking off the 6 days a lady may have been sick in that period, one person can add 174 days to the annual stats before a baby is even born. If BA at 12 days p.a. is 4 days over the industry average, one pregnancy can explain that discrepancy for over 40 people. BASSA should have figures like that at it's fingertips to counter what BA is putting out.

Considering how long this strike has been building, I can't believe they are so poorly prepared - BASSA look like rank amateurs, out of their depth and now just looking for a way to save face.

[Artificial Horizon]

what a complete load of absolute tosh!!!! Working for £1.70 per hour, ha ha ha ha. I suspect the £1.70 per hour being refered to is the duty pay, so they get a basic pay + duty pay + allowances + CAT payments (if any). That would be like me ignoring my good basic pay and say that I fly airliners for £2.10 per hour which is my duty pay, oh poor me, never knew I had it so bad!!!:{ :{

BA cabin crew are masters of signing contracts and then complaining about them later on. 1997 payscale were agreed to, cc signed up to this and now that they are at the top of the payscale it is all of a sudden not good enough. Sickness policy was agreed by the union and each crew member was paid a good amount of money for agreeing to it and now that it is stopping crew taking the p*ss it is not good enough. The new pension deal was agreed with the company with the TGWU present at the meeting and now all of a sudden it is not good enough!!!:ugh: :ugh: :} :{

[PaulW]

No one has agreed to accept the pension deal. BA reported that four of the unions left the meeting recommending their member to accept the deal, which is entirely different.
At work the flight crew have gone very quiet and look very sheepish when you mention pensions, because they have got a great deal, which is different to the blanket deal to everyone else. Pilots put 15% percent of the total contributions into NAPS and remove 33%. It is typical that as soon as they are happy they start criticizing other departments who also wish to defend eroding terms and conditions. Good luck to the cabin crew, as with everything out their there is media battle going on, and there are a lot of misinformed people out there. Whats wrong with having the best terms and conditions in the industry? why are they the best? because they have defended them, whilst others havent whether they wanted to or not. I bet you wouldnt mind the same conditions too in your company if you could have them. Just imagine what the flight crew community in BAs terms and conditions would be if they weren't represented by BALPA....a lot worse.
What ever their dispute witht the company and whether you agree with it or not, they have the right to stand up for their position. If you work for BA in any department you will be aware of the BULLY BOY tactics from the managers who enforce poilicies without consultation of the workforce whether they work or not, and do not accept any feedback given.

[411A]

...whether the big airways CC walk, or not?
Flights are cancelled, sensible folks have long since booked with another carrier, and the CC have decided to walk in the least busy season, which I expect they perhaps thought would be more painful, but clearly it will not.
BA management will, one way or the other, find a way to get what they want, and the CC will be on the short end, eventually.
BA reputation, as a reliable carrier and a market brand in general, will suffer, and this leaves the cometitors licking their chops at the prospect of slicing another layer off of BA's already tarnished hide.

Sir Freddie Laker would be laughing from his grave, and certainly Sir Richard B. will be laughing at this whole sorry circus from his club.
And, so he should.
BA have once again shot themselves in the foot.

It really is quite amusing, when you think about it.:D :D

[52049er]

PaulW - can I just ask where your figures of 15% in, 33% out come from?

The only reason I ask is because they are wrong. No group takes out more than it (+ the company's contributions) pays in. IIRC, flight crew pay in 28% and take out 27.6%.

Your figures are probably ignoring the company contribution, in which case using the same maths, engineers (which you are 1 I see) would also tske out twice what they put in.

Please dont just listen to your union. I've spent the last 3 trips explaining to CC where our £9m 'bribe' came from. To a man/woman they have all looked appalled at the lies their union has told them.

(For those that dont know, we added the money to the pot by passing up the offer of phasing in our 10 year increase to our retirement age. So the company saved £9m from FC, and £6m from CC and added it to the pot. Not quite what you have been told I expect.)

[Dave Gittins]

Am in general agreement, that this does nothing for BAs brand which has already been pretty diminished by a reputation for worse service than most, the last series of strikes, check in staff, ground staff, Gate Gourmet etc and by the lost luggage debacle and a few other things.

If I was in competition I would indeed be splitting my sides.

My only problem is that flying to Denver next month, (to see a new granddaughter) BA are the only people that do it direct from LHR without me having to languish for hours in NY, Chicago, Orlando or somewhere I don't want to be.

If my trip does get mucked up though ... it's something I shall be prepared to put up with next time !!!!

DGG :ugh:

[M.Mouse]

No one has agreed to accept the pension deal. BA reported that four of the unions left the meeting recommending their member to accept the deal, which is entirely different.

BASSA deliberately avoided attending the 4th January final pension negotiation meeting despite being given notice of it on 22nd December. Nothing to do with the fact that they wanted to claim to have been excluded and that a pension solution was being imposed to bolster the chances of a resounding 'Yes' vote a few days before the end of their polling?

At work the flight crew have gone very quiet and look very sheepish when you mention pensions, because they have got a great deal, which is different to the blanket deal to everyone else. Pilots put 15% percent of the total contributions into NAPS and remove 33%. It is typical that as soon as they are happy they start criticizing other departments who also wish to defend eroding terms and conditions.

Amazed that a pilot would not put you straight when you mention pensions. The overwhelming majority of pilots took great care to understand and analyse the pensions issues and could therefore dispel your mischievous and incorrect claim that we 'put 15% percent [sic] of the total contributions into NAPS and remove 30%'. I would love to see your calculations for that piece of misinformation.

BASSA are not defending eroding Ts & Cs they are trying to gain improvements which would cost BA around £37m p.a. on the back of an ill - conceived and poorly timed ballot for strike action which was orchestrated by propogating blatant half-truths and, at times outright lies.

If anybody in BASSA truly believes that their leaders are diligently looking after crew's interests ask them how they plan to use the £6m lump sum allocated to CC after the 5 year transition period has elapsed.

[jumbojet]

"Whats wrong with having the best terms & conditions in the industry?"

NOTHING!

But understand this, the industry (& the world) has changed.

The low cost crocadile is smiling in the corner, while he negotiates Atlantic long haul.

As an ex BA employee, I warn you to grow up & face reality, before you face the music!

[Digitalis]

I am very much afraid that this dispute is ill-founded and has little hope of a successful conclusion for BASSA. The causes of the dispute and the aims of the resulting industrial action are ill-defined by BASSA and appear to be poorly understood by BASSA's membership. As a result, BASA has done an extremely poor job of preparing the public for this confrontation, and has made some grave PR and negotiation errors in its handling of the dispute.

The result is that public opinion - even inside the industry - is moving from unsympathetic to positively hostile towards BASSA. Unfortunately, the general public will not differentiate between BASSA and BA Cabin Crew in general, and the fallout is likely to last for some time. There are plenty of people out there who remember the 1997 action and still regard BA CC poorly from that occasion.

If BASSA is to salvage anything from this, it needs to redefine its points of dispute and its aims, and should agree to ACAS being brought in. It also needs to do a bloody sight better job than it has of explaining to the public the causes of the obvious bad feeling within the BA CC community, and it will need to explain why it feels that its confrontational approach to resolving these issues needs to be so different from the less combative approach of the other unions involved. However, I feel it may already be too late.

As others have suggested, I get the feeling that the defeat BASSA will suffer at the hands of Willie Walsh will be devastating for BASSA's standing with their CC, and that far from improving things for BA CC, the result will be an imposition of non-negotiable and less-favourable Ts&Cs - and a mass defection to CC89.

[overstress]

The low cost crocadile (sic) is smiling in the corner, while he negotiates Atlantic long haul.

Well let the crocodile try and make money at it - it won't work without premium traffic, IMHO

[Choxolate]

Well let the crocodile try and make money at it - it won't work without premium traffic, IMHOI seem to remember the same argument was used for short haul some years ago. Ignore the lo-cost boys at your peril.

[jethrobee]

This years strike is for me the straw that breaks the camels back, I always use BA much to the dislike of my companies accountant!!! My gold card will expire this year because I cant risk not getting to Kuwait during the strike. It annoyed me when they raised the points, but I have comfortably made it for the last 5 years. This year I am literally this one trip away, so im going to post it back to WW.
Ironically, I have had to write an legal letter to book with another airline since my contract states BA flights. Oh well, lets hope Kuwait Airways offers a nice Business Class Service.
I would just like to thank the BA CC who have looked after me in the past, I hope the issue gets resolved without bankrupting the airline.

[old,not bold]

I strayed into this thread and wish I hadn't.

Not a lot has changed, it seems, from the day I was recruited and medicalled at the BA offices at Hatton Cross, or thereabouts, in 1968. Now, a whole airline career later, not much of it with BOAC/BA, I do a lot of travel for my present aviation-related work, and pay for a lot of other peoples' travel.

BA staff still to appear to believe that the world owes them a living, and BA management still couldn't lead a boy scout troop. Both sides think that BA simply cannot collapse, no matter what they do. And BA staff still think they can win by taking out their grievances on their customers, apparently forgetting that they can and will walk.

In the short term we have cancelled all reservations we had with BA, including 7 round trips in the next 3 weeks, and rebooked on other carriers. We are not likely to return, ever. The risk of disruption is just too high. BA's problem is that hundreds of thousands of businesses, as well as leisure passengers, are doing the same. It's a risk we don't have to take, and so we don't.

It's sad and depressing. The final straw that tells me there's no hope at all was the sight of the CC cheering and waving for the cameras when the vote was announced, as they celebrated their 96% vote to kill off the airline and their own jobs as though it was some kind of triumph.

Believe me, BA can collapse with dramatic speed, as other large airlines have. The process of collapse feeds on itself and acclerates. Revenue is cut to nothing by a strike, and everyone knows it. Rumours of financial difficulties develop (competitors?). Airports, caterers, handlers, fuel companies and spares suppliers withdraw credit without notice, and aircraft are held all over the world. Pay cheques don't arrive. It can take less than 7 days to get from having a full operation to ceasing all flying and dismissing all staff, and BA is not immune to this process because "we're British Airways, don't you know".

Stll cheering and waving, are we?

[jumbojet]

I seem to remember the same argument was used for short haul some years ago. Ignore the lo-cost boys at your peril.

Choxolate, happy you agree, you beat to my reply. Its true, "lowcost wont cause a problem" was the much sung chorus 5yrs ago. Low cost long haul will work, thats why Oasis & Air Asia are trying. But anyway, if it didnt work, dont think the premium pax will fly with BA. Why should they, after all, BA is always on strike isnt it?

[egbt]

This years strike is for me the straw that breaks the camels back, I always use BA much to the dislike of my companies accountant!!! My gold card will expire this year because I cant risk not getting to Kuwait during the strike. It annoyed me when they raised the points, but I have comfortably made it for the last 5 years. This year I am literally this one trip away,[..].

Me to, held a gold card for 9 or 10 of the last 12 years (also previously), would have made it this year but for changing carrier over the last 6 weeks of my year and having already defected to Cathay /Quantas for HKG / SYD (and all the European trips in cattle class help the budget rather than the points).

[cirrus01]

Low cost long haul is already here........(http://www.maxjet.com/ ) amonst others.......... coupled with the fact that they avoid the third world conditions at LHR. A lot of people seem to use BA because of the loyality card, however it looks like many are defecting due to new "earning " points .:ooh:

[OpenCirrus619]

Am I missing something here (ready to be chastised from both sides):

I agree that you can't expect CC to fly when they have various illnesses (blocked ears / colds / injuries) that would not prevent them doing an office job. What I don't understand is why, when they have these maladies, they are not expected / prepared to come in and do an office job / check-in?

The benefits of this approach, from both sides, are:

The argument about the list of illnesses not to be counted as sick is irrelevant - since the staff are not off work, just grounded.
The number of sick days comes down.
It's not so easy for some to "swing the lead" and make the rest look bad.
Staff won't feel they are being forced to fly while unfit.


Body armour on, ready for incoming...

OC619

[jordan]

No wonder BA is having problems with BASSA!!
Bassa, a Kru language spoken mainly in Liberia by about 300,000 people.

Source: www.omniglot.com

[GANNET FAN]

If you know your Billy Connelly, its also an expression a very drunk Glaswegian uses. Bassa = bastard

[Fly380]

old,not bold - you have it in a nutshell. I was FD with Lloyd International, Donaldson International, Tempair etc. When rumours start, credit stops. Unfortunately I am a Naps pensioner. The dinosaurs of the TGWU are still there *ucking everyone up. Perhaps it is too late for common sense to prevail!:ugh: :ugh:

[DaveO'Leary]

Be aware, I fear there are Trojan horses afoot on this page posting physiclogical anti interpretations of your points of view. Big companies are very skilled at this, they pay phsycologists £££ for subliminal 'coaching' of staff.

Be aware of post from....SNasty, joined 2007 4 posts.
Bosshogg joined 2007 2 posts

I fear they might be WW boys.

Dave

[Flying Lawyer]

Good for you Dave. :ok:

It's good to lighten a serious discussion with some humour from time to time. :ok:

[Rimmer]

52049ER

Couple of points for you.

Firstly if as you say BA pay in more to your pension for each £ you pay thats called now whats the term - AN UNFAIR AND BIASED PENSION SCHEME.

Secondly If as you say you and BA pay in more for your pensions then i think its obvious you should therefore accept a greater percentage of the deficit as yours per head - surely thats obvious.

Thirdly you are the only group in the company that has 24 incruments, even the trustees know that over a pilots career the % you pay in for your total pot is considerably less ( £ For £ ) than other groups.

[Rainboe]

Well I'm no Trojan Horse, but I will say the BA CC, having been whipped up into Industrial Strife fervour, are being led by the nose into a battle they cannot win for some rather nasty political and union purposes. I ws questioned once by a rather smooth (and wealthy!) longhaul Purser why I supported BALPA when they were just a little union 'out for their own ends' I told him I was happy with their representation of me. Now everyone is saying to the CC 'why are you supporting this daft action over such unimportant demands', and all that can be said is that they have been whipped up to do it, and now they are going to be sacrificial lambs to an industrial slaughter, the main motivation being powerplay between BA and TGWU and Amicus! What a union!

Rimmer, you're talking nonsense! The company pays into the Fund according to your relative earnings. One assumes it is proportional to your pay.

[keel beam]

The cabin crew have stated (and possibly the union) that they want to give BA a bloody nose. This is what they are achieving at the moment. The union are on a dodgy wicket, perhaps that is why the General Secretary is now involved. How can the union save face? We will have to wait and see. I suspect the strike will be called off at the last minute, but too late to stop the majority of cancellations – BA’s nose well bloodied and CC don’t lose wages to boot!

There is something fundamentally wrong with BA, I cannot put my finger on exactly what that is, but at a guess, incessant cost cutting without appreciating the affects of the cuts would be one of them.

So how do BA recover? Will they recover?

[DaveO'Leary]

Rainboe; I note from your Add Info your not cc. Sir!! Neither am I but I'll back any worker to fight for a fair working agreement, while you f/d earn ££££ one day my son the tables will turn on you, then lets see will the cc back you guys/gals.

You posted... "'why are you supporting this daft action over such unimportant demands', and all that can be said is that they have been whipped up to do it, and now they are going to be sacrificial lambs"

The cc boys and girls, yes! They strike for their working rights next week, but not only that Sir, these workers are striking for the future working rights of the BA cc of the years to come.

With respect Rainboe, just go and fill in your Times crossword on your next long sector and forget about the people who do the real work. I rest my case.

Dave O

[The Controlller]

After many years in the company along with many others we are being taken to the wall by the cabin crew unions. There will be many sad days ahead for very little return from the heartless cabin crew who have been bleeding BA dry for years. Think about the staff that have to mopp up after the mess left behind. I am sure that the union reps will bank roll cabin crew ? after hearing just how much they earn (sorry take in ?)

[Airbus Unplugged]

Dear Mr regularpassenger, I presume you're the same customer who goes into ASDA and complains about the quality of their clothes.

I'm sorry. If you want Harrods, you can't pay Walmart prices.

We have the best people. They don't work for chicken feed.

[stormin norman]

WW should start sacking a few of these militant cabin crew starting 6am tuesday morning.If they can get a better job elsewhere,great, but would they go quickly and leave those who want to see the airline succeed to get on with their jobs.

The industry certainly isn't crying out for Pursers ? and CSD's? or are they ?

Offering................ pay rates of £30-50K+ PA,option to part time workone month on one month off,final salary pension,900 hrs year working(ground staff do 1,900 hrs),12-22 days sick leave on top of 5 weeks leave,destination payments if you go to somewhere BASSA dosn't like,one sector followed by a night stop,and long range payments with bunks if you get a little tired after your commute from europe using the cheap tickets you paid for with the tax you don't pay in the uk.

Oh and thanks for ruining my holiday, but don't let it worry you

Something else i've missed ?

[Final 3 Greens]

Airbus Unplugged

Your arrogance is pretty amazing.

I flew 108 sectors last year, mostly in C/J/F, on a variety of airlines. I have been flying on business since 1978 and in the last four years have flown about 350 pax sectors, so I know what I am looking at when I travel.

Let me give you some feedback about British Airways, from my position of being able to compare several different airlines

1 - BA is not Harrod's, although the attitude of some CC would suggest they are suppliers to royalty

2 - You do not generally have the best people, although some of your CC are very good. Many are average in attitude and customer handling skills and some are below

3 - ASDA staff do not stitch their customers up

4 - On long haul, I find Emirates and Lufthansa beat your levels of service in J and F, can't say about Y as I don't travel in that cabin. Having NCW flat beds is not enough alone to make your company my first choice

5 - On short haul, Finnair, Swiss and Lufthansa offer a more consistent experience, even tiny Air Malta could teach you a few things about how to handle customers

6 - The only three airlines I tend to avoid are (a) Alitalia, who are awful in my experience, (b) Ryanair, because I can afford better and (c) BA, because I simply don't need the aggro

My short haul airline of choice in the UK is now easyJet, as their service is consistently better tha BAs and they have a gold plated weather disruption
policy fitting of a high quality airline.

Add this to the extra "security" aggro when connecting through the UK and BA is one of my last options when considering who to travel with.

Some on this forum say that BA may go under if the strike goes ahead.

I don't know if this is true and frankly I really don't care, since IMHO BA's days of being worth a premium are gone.

[atyourcervix73]

My short haul airline of choice in the UK is now easyJet, as their service is consistently better tha BAs and they have a gold plated weather disruption
policy fitting of a high quality airline.
Finals, if you go through the posts on here, I've been fairly vocal in my defense of BA CC because in my opinion they (as a professional group) they do a pretty damn good job, in less than optimal circumstances.

I am surprised you feel EZY provide a better service than BA, considering you are required to purchase anything and everything on board and I say this as in my old job I used to position around the UK with EZY...a lot. I simply didn't see a standard that even approached BA's level.

Your other comment intrigues me also, what exactly is EZY's "gold plated" weather disruption policy?

[Carnage Matey!]

52049ER
Couple of points for you.
Firstly if as you say BA pay in more to your pension for each £ you pay thats called now whats the term - AN UNFAIR AND BIASED PENSION SCHEME.

Nothing unfair or biased about it. We don't live in a communist society and we don't all get paid the same, despite what the GMB would like. If BA want to pay a higher multiple for our pensions then they are welcome to do it, just like they pay us higher salaries. Perhaps you think the thats unfair too? Maybe you also think it's unfair that if I put more money into a savings account than you do I get more interest out of it?

Secondly If as you say you and BA pay in more for your pensions then i think its obvious you should therefore accept a greater percentage of the deficit as yours per head - surely thats obvious.

I don't think anyone in the pilot community would argue that if we own X % of the deficit then we pay for X% of the deficit. Thats fair by me. I don't see any justification for accepting more than X% of the deficit.

even the trustees know that over a pilots career the % you pay in for your total pot is considerably less ( £ For £ ) than other groups.

I've already told you thats not true and the trustees have said so. Don't think you can give it a few days, repeat the lie and I won't be here to challenge it. As long as you are posting BS I will keep reminding the other contributors that its BS.

[egbt]

Dear Mr regularpassenger, I presume you're the same customer who goes into ASDA and complains about the quality of their clothes.
I'm sorry. If you want Harrods, you can't pay Walmart prices.
We have the best people. They don't work for chicken feed.
AU, There are many good people working at BA but they not (always) the best. Have you checked the prices of BA long haul flights in club class? Last time I did LHR - HKG, fully flexible on BA was £800 more than CX who have better food, better wine, better lounges and better service. I bet you have never checked out the competition - I have and you loose on that route and to SYD. From my limited experience with them I would also say Virgin and Qantas are at least as good as BA. (I concede BA are constantly better than US and AA).
BA is generally the most expensive on route and you are not delivering, so your comment
I'm sorry. If you want Harrods, you can't pay Walmart prices
is complete :mad:
You should remember that the most important people in your professional life are your customers because without them you have no job.

[Carnage Matey!]

You should bear in mind that the people who bring in 80% of our profits (the corporte account holders) don't pay anything like the price the man in the street will be quoted.

[Metal_Mirage]

Airbus Unplugged
You are living in the Seventies. And arrogant to boot.

BA can hardly be called the "Harrods of the air", when they consistently don't deliver the level of service commensurate with the prices they charge.

WW is now trying to drag the company into the 21st century - I hope he succeeds.

[Marty-Party]

52049ER
Thirdly you are the only group in the company that has 24 incruments, even the trustees know that over a pilots career the % you pay in for your total pot is considerably less ( £ For £ ) than other groups.
Rimmer,
Perhaps we need to go through some maths. If I earn 40k per year with an annual increase of 1k and work for 5 years. I elect to contribute 10% into a pension fund.....
40 41 42 43 44
4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4
So at the end of 5 years I have earnt 210k and have 21k in the pension pot i.e 10%. As this is a final salary scheme I am entitled to a pension of 1/60 or £350.
Lets say you earn half the salary, at the end of 5 years you will have earnt 105k and stored away 10.5k = strangely enough that's also 10% and you will get a pension based on the same increment = £175.
In other words I paid in twice as much so I get twice as much out. How can pilots get more out of the system than other work groups?
Sorry if this seems patronising but I am fed up with reading unsubstantiated facts about the difference between fc and cc. I recently flew with an ex-cc f/o who was mortgaged to death (c 100k), spent 3 years with no income, joined a turbo-prop carrier on 17k per year ( made nearly 20k with allowances) and after 8 years has finally re-joined BA and gets a reasonable wageas an F/O.
If you are jealous of the fc package then start studying!!!!!

[egbt]

You should bear in mind that the people who bring in 80% of our profits (the corporte account holders) don't pay anything like the price the man in the street will be quoted.
If that was aimed at me I know exactly how much my company (and previous ones) pay for flights as I am told when booking and it goes to my budget. As do all flights for my staff and even at the salaries of a BA CSD quoted earlier I fund more than one of them though my company - as well as some lo-co pilots!

[Joetom]

CM and MP,
.
Post as much as you like, but anyone who takes 10mins with a pen and paper can see that pilots get a better pension deal than other staff inside BA, that's what other unions are telling their members.
.
Press last week was saying unions had accepted the pension changes, however now appears that BAPLA is happy to accept but the other unions are much less than happy, watch this space.
.
I think other staff would have more respect for the pilots if they were just honest enough to admit their deal is better than others.
.
......96.1% says it all !!!:ugh: :ugh:

[M.Mouse]

Airbus Unplugged has, in just a few sentences, summed up perfectly the deep rooted problem within BA CC.

There are many employees in BA who grieve at the damage that the appalling arrogance demonstrated by AU and this imminent strike has done and is doing the BA.

I hope I speak for the majority of decent hard working employees when I say that we sincerely hope we can win back the reputation, and passengers, we once had.

[900]

It's interesting that there's been no word yet on last nights talks. One would have thought that if they'd broken up without any progress being made that the finger pointing and mutual recrimination would have started pretty quickly.

If Tony Woodley feels obliged to consult with the BASSA reps before saying anything publicly, maybe he feels there's a face saving deal on offer?

One rep only. Sent just one rep to police angry moment (for fear of settlement?)

[M.Mouse]

BA and T&G talks on Saturday

Talks between British Airways and the T&G union will resume tomorrow (Saturday, January 27).

The move was agreed by British Airways’ chief executive Willie Walsh and Tony Woodley, general secretary of the T&G, following their meeting on Thursday (January 25) and subsequent conversations during Friday (January 26).

[Gonzo]

AYC73,

I am surprised you feel EZY provide a better service than BA, considering you are required to purchase anything and everything on board

I think some people are confusing the product (i.e. what is included in the ticket price, how much legroom there is etc etc) with the service a passenger receives.

You can have a high level (minus the legroom!:}) product, with poor service - as I've experienced on my last few trips with BA - and you can have a lower level of product but with exceptional service - as I experienced on my last flight with FlyBe.

Service is how the airline interacts with me, and how enjoyable and easy they make the journey for me. The majority of that is down to the cabin crew on the day.

[900]

PaulW - can I just ask where your figures of 15% in, 33% out come from?

The only reason I ask is because they are wrong. No group takes out more than it (+ the company's contributions) pays in. IIRC, flight crew pay in 28% and take out 27.6%.

Your figures are probably ignoring the company contribution, in which case using the same maths, engineers (which you are 1 I see) would also tske out twice what they put in.

Please dont just listen to your union. I've spent the last 3 trips explaining to CC where our £9m 'bribe' came from. To a man/woman they have all looked appalled at the lies their union has told them.

(For those that dont know, we added the money to the pot by passing up the offer of phasing in our 10 year increase to our retirement age. So the company saved £9m from FC, and £6m from CC and added it to the pot. Not quite what you have been told I expect.)

5209er - you neglect to mention that the £9m counts year on year - lucky counts!

[Finals19]

My short haul airline of choice in the UK is now easyJet, as their service is consistently better tha BAs and they have a gold plated weather disruption


Final 3 green (not to be confused with me AYC!!:= :) ) What exactly is a gold plated weather disruption (policy) ? Last time I checked, EZY were subject to the same holding and sequencing restrictions as any other airline arriving into the LTMA when the wx is down?

Which aspects of their service are better than BA? The quieter (relatively) terminals, the pay-for-your-food-and-drink service? Of course Luton is not Heathrow, but perhaps thats a small techical detail?

[Carnage Matey!]

5209er - you neglect to mention that the £9m counts year on year - lucky counts!
So does the 10 year increase in my NRA. Would you accept equivalent cash for the requirement to work a further 10 years for BA? Fair swap?

[900]

Eh? .. Yes
Do you expect us to believe that BALPA would unanimously recommend unless it was either:
a) a better deal than already existed - well no, not true, or
b) better than the rest - amost certainly, or
c) Let's be reasonable and demoratic and take a fair burden - well, this is the pilots group! Go think!

BASSA are mad, and stupid. BALPA are simply an educated BASSA

[900]

So does the 10 year increase in my NRA. Would you accept equivalent cash for the requirement to work a further 10 years for BA? Fair swap?
. Oh and while I'm at it, is the extra 10 (or less if you choose) years' flying with or without pay? We work out that b4 GB that's @£1m extra wages for the senior pilots? Turning that down are we?

[Thumperdown]

Gonzo
Out of interest, which routes did you fly with BA? Were they BA routes or BA Connect routes? Have you flown with both? Any differences (excluding the buy on board)?

[Final 3 Greens]

Gonzo

Your point about the difference between product and service is spot on.
atyourcervix

Last July I suffered an canx easy flight in the evening, due to bad wx; No quibble, straight onto a coach to a nice hotel, back again in the morning, with breakfast paid for and an additional refreshment voucher. And an 0800 departure on a new flight.

When I thanked their rep for this excellent service, she smiled and said "it's normal, look at our carriers regs." And I did and she was right. If you look, you will find it written in plain English, no weasel words.

What does BA say? "We will give you additional assistance, such as compensation, refreshments and other care and reimbursement, if required to do so by any law which may apply. We will have no further liability to you. "
What does that mean? - You know what, I don't care to find out.

Finals 19

Which aspects of their service are better than BA? The quieter (relatively) terminals, the pay-for-your-food-and-drink service? Of course Luton is not Heathrow, but perhaps thats a small techical detail?

As Gonzo has pointed out, you don't seem to understand the difference between a product and a service.

Luton is not Heathrow. It lacks many things that Heathrow has, such as 20 minute holding, 4 terminals to connect between, long security queues, extortionately priced car parking, striking BA cabin crew - need I go on?
This Heathrow centric view of the world is barmy. BTW, easyJet also fly from Stansted and Gatwick too (as well as several regional airports), or did that one pass you by?

And the other thing is that ezy CC are typically friendly & helpful. Some BA CC are, some sadly not.

Let me give you an extract from Quality 101.

Grade = richness of functionality or features

Fitness for use = appropriateness to needs includes consistently delivered service)

On a short haul flight, low grade, fit for use is okay - that's why BA has to price discounted Euro Traveller tickets at the heaily discounted prices - time to wake up and smell the coffee, the market has changed considerably since I started travelling in 1978, when an economy ticket to Italy cost £300 and Lufthansa 73s had a first class cabin.

[Marvo]

Who says the BA product is high quality. Flying short haul this week on BA, I got given a pack of birdseed and a coffee. At least on Easy you have the chance to buy something vaguely resembling food.

[Jet II]

Rimmer,
Perhaps we need to go through some maths. If I earn 40k per year with an annual increase of 1k and work for 5 years. I elect to contribute 10% into a pension fund.....
40 41 42 43 44
4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3 4.4
So at the end of 5 years I have earnt 210k and have 21k in the pension pot i.e 10%. As this is a final salary scheme I am entitled to a pension of 1/60 or £350.
Lets say you earn half the salary, at the end of 5 years you will have earnt 105k and stored away 10.5k = strangely enough that's also 10% and you will get a pension based on the same increment = £175.
In other words I paid in twice as much so I get twice as much out. How can pilots get more out of the system than other work groups?

Sorry marty, but I dont know if you were deliberately missing the point or your maths is just bad - but Rimmer was talking about increments to basic pay.

So going back to your example after 5 years with an increment each year yes you do pay in £21k - but for the other staff who do not have those automatic increments then instead of them putting in £10.5k they would have only put in £10k - resulting pension then is not 50% of the FC pension.

[jaybob777]

Indeed. An interseting list of names steering SilverJet and look who started EOS. Service excellence at affordable prices. Industry restructuring - yes.

[stormin norman]

In this dispute has anyone heard from the British Airways chairman ?
Now theres a man who's keeping his head down.

[keel beam]

In this dispute has anyone heard from the British Airways chairman ?
Now theres a man who's keeping his head down.

He is probably out with his CBI mates. Anyway the CEO takes the heat.

... and with all the fuss about EG300, things could be worse. Reuters report that “Malaysia has come up with new ways to crack down on work-shy government officials – publishing the names of those who fail to show up for work and checking on the homes of those who call in sick.” Though in BA's case checking Wimbledon etc :eek:
Mind you, as reported on Pprune, IFS are creating 32 new managers ….

[Gonzo]

Thumperdown,

All BA mainline routes, all ex-LHR.
-Vancouver return, twice.
-Outbound to Seattle, then inbound from San Francisco.
-JFK return, twice.
-Edinburgh and Glasgow shuttles a few times each.


I've only travelled BACON once, late last year, so I'm not too familiar with that product. However, the service on the aircraft was pretty good, the cabin crew (I think it was singular! - ERJ145) was cheerful and spent the whole flight wandering up and down chatting to passengers, and actually seemed to know some regular travellers' names. I actually wrote to BACON to commend her.

[TopBunk]

Posted also on the Cabin Crew forum:


I agree that it is improper to raise the subject on duty. If, however, it is raised by CC then that is different, athough it is better to defer discussions until off-duty downroute. Indeed, it would be almost unbelievable not to discuss the biggest single issue that the company faces.

At the same time, I would not expect my colleagues or them to expect me to issue platitudes but to voice opinions that are held. They may well be diametrically opposed to those held by my CC colleagues, and vice versa. So long as the debate is conducted in the right manner (ie not a screaming lecture, or refusing to listen to counter views), everyone has to accept that and deal with it in any free society.

My personal opinion is that there are personailty issues and the overall relationship between BA and BASSA will need honest arbitration after this is over to get away from the parent-child relationship that has existed for too long. BA undoubtedly are the deaf parent and BASSA the petulant child in their pram with lots of toys. What needs to be recognised is that both sides can gain more by working together than by continual bickering.

Also to be recognised is that the company have chosen the timing of this dispute (BASSA may like to think they have by holding a ballot, but ask yourself about the behavioural patterns beforehand that have forced the BASSA hand). The timings are all in BA's favour; low time of year, just after Xmas and no pay since before Xmas, cabin crew with big Xmas credit card bills to pay - Feb pay could be much reduced if strike happens.

No, as I see it, BA are running rings around BASSA on the publicity front and the CC have no public support at all. However, the T&G and BA have both to find a way out, and both sides have to come out able to proclaim some sort of victory. Who gains what we will have to wait and see.

As I said before, after this is over, a 3rd party will have to get BA and BASSA around the table after analysing the relationship and formulate a plan to move forward. For sure the relationship cannot remain as it is. After the 1996 near-strike by the pilots, People-in-Business, iirc, were brought in to do the same job for BALPA/BA. I know that there are still many issues between BALPA and BA, but I believe in the immediate aftermath of 1996 it served a useful purpose.

The difference is, of course, that BALPA have always proved to be open to reasoned debate and had a management who accepted that they were needed.

BASSA/T&G have not proved, imho, open to reasoned debate and as a result the BA management won't play ball. The big question therefore is, can they both accept the challenge of the 21st Century and cabn BASSA regenerate themselves from a 1970's style TU?

[Flying Lawyer]

In this dispute has anyone heard from the British Airways chairman ?
Now theres a man who's keeping his head down.

No views either way about the current Chairman, but I wouldn't expect him to make any comments at this stage.
A chairman's role has changed significantly in the (large size) corporate world generally, with a clear separation of roles between an independent chairman (long term corporate strategy etc) and a CEO actually running the business operationally.

Very different from Lord King's day. That was partly because there was no such clear demarcation of roles in those days, and partly because of Lord King's personality! He was very much the executive boss, with a managing director below him. Much the same applied, some say to a lesser extent, when Lord Marshall became Chairman.

Wille Walsh has been given a job to do and will be allowed to get on with it.

If he fails, they'll get rid of him. Although, if the 'golden goodbye' Ayling received following his incompetence is any indication, that's more a blow to pride than pocket.

[Human Factor]

In this dispute has anyone heard from the British Airways chairman?

MB will have given his instructions to WW and the board and will be letting them get on with it.

[biddedout]

I too had to chuckle at the reports in the times and WW's assertion that servces out of Regional Airports operated by BA Connect would be operating normally. He conveniently forgot to mention that he was selling this ("Basket Case Operation with no strategic importance to BA") by the end of the week. - (Correction, - giving it away!).

I don't know how WW and the BA board defines strategic importance, but I would guess that carying more BA customers than the rest of BA next week means that it might be worthy of an upgrade from "basket Case". It wasn't until BA and DE screwed it up.

PS, I have to admit to breaking SOP's and reading the Times article on the flight deck. I comitted this "crime" on the basis that WW only seems to communicate with his workforce through the press. I treat the business section of the times as an internal company memo. Without it, we would be completely in the dark.:ugh: But then maybe that's what he wants.:*

[M.Mouse]

It is striking that on this thread there have been several reasoned and factual posts from individuals with, presumably, no axe to grind, who travel regularly in premium cabins. Some of those posters have never felt moved to post before which speaks louder than their words.

The question is is anybody (BA employees and managers alike) listening or are we still in a state of self - denial?

[Sigmond]

Does anybody have any updates from the discussions that have taken place over the last 24 hours?

[Rimmer]

Marty
Here we go then and the maths are easy.
Inflations 5% and 10 years
Loader = 2 Incruments of 5%
Pilot = 10 Incruments of 5%
10 Year period > Watch
Loader +
1 = £10000PA = £500 Pension Pay In
2 = £10500PA = £550 Pension Pay In
3 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
4 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
5 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
6 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
7 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
8 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
9 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
10 = £11000PA = £600 Pension Pay In
Now i have kept the years simple and not included inflation for the same reason ( likewise i havent done the extra to retire earlier either ), lets say after 10 years you get 1/4 of your FSS pension
The Loader will have Paid in £5850 over 10 years to get £2500 PA ( 42% )
Same for Pilot
1 = £40000PA = £2000 Pension Pay In
2 = £42000PA = £2100 Pension Pay In
3 = £44100PA = £2205 Pension Pay In
4 = £46305PA = £2315.25 Pension Pay In
5 = £48620.25 = £2431 Pension Pay In
6 = £51051 = £2552.25 Pension Pay In
7 = £53603 = £2680 Pension Pay In
8 = £56283 = £2814 Pension Pay In
9 = £59097 = £2955 Pension Pay In
10 = £62051 = £3102 Pension Pay In

The Pilot will have paid in £25154.5 over 10 years to get £ 15512 ( 62% )
The figures Bias significantly when you go further towards 24 Incruments - which seems fairer to you?

[M.Mouse]

Can those of you with green eyed convictions and suspect mathematical skills please start a thread elsewhere to avoid sidetracking this one.

Thank you.

[The Blu Riband]

Rimmer
for the nth time............
how about the compound interest?

your maths are ok but you are no actuary!

now please leave this thread alone

[Artificial Horizon]

Here's a thought, if us pilots have it so great with pensions and pay scales then go and become one!!!

[52049er]

And for 900 and his green eyed, I-cant-hear-what-I-dont-want-to-hear comrades -

We have been advised to accept the new pension because we have been told by external experts (whom we spent our subs on employing at no small expense) that this is the most the company can afford. It really is as simple as that.

I will still lose 15%-20%ish of my NAPS pension if I want to leave at my original contracted date, and work for an extra 5 years if not.

Its not perfect. We haven't been bribed. Is it a better deal than for someone else in the company? Possibly but then I'm lucky enough to earn more than most people in the company. We have simply done what professionals do - listen to the best evidence and make a decision based on it.

One day, an honest TU rep may tell you how much the other unions owe BALPA for saving their ars%s on this one. Maybe one day someone will say thanks. But I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps for now you should just be asking your reps why the smallest Union in the company made ALL the running on the pension debate. Maybe you'll get an apology. Maybe they'll just tell you more lies about BALPA/FC - and you should ask yourself why they do it......

[Jet II]

Here's a thought, if us pilots have it so great with pensions and pay scales then go and become one!!!

Dont be silly - many people do not want to be pilots they just want a fair distribution of the monies in the pension fund that they have all paid into.

[Carnage Matey!]

CM and MP,
.
Post as much as you like, but anyone who takes 10mins with a pen and paper can see that pilots get a better pension deal than other staff inside BA,
Makes you wonder why BA and the trustees spend all that money on actuaries when anyone who takes 10 mins with a pen and paper can work out the funding of the scheme. They should ask for their money back.:ugh:

Rimmer - with maths like yours I am surprised you can call yourself an engineer. Apart from the completely arbitrary nature you seem to have conveniently (perhaps deliberately) overlooked the effects of BAs contributions. BA have historically paid approximately 2.5 times the contributions of ground based workers and 3.8 times the contributions of pilots. Whether or not you like that is as irrelevant to the thread as whether or not you like pilots getting higher pay than other people. Its part of the remuneration package. So lets see what those numbers do to your simple figures:

The loader contributes £5850
BA contributes for him 2.5*£5850 = £14625
His total pension pot is £20475
His final pension in your example is £2500
That means he is receiving a pension equivalent to 12.2% of his total pot.

The pilot contributes £25154
BA contributes for him 3.8*£25154 = £95585
His total pension pot is £120739
His final pension in your example is £15512
That means he is receiving a pension equivalent to 12.8% of his total pot.

Given the totally arbitrary nature of your numbers and the inherent scope for error they introduce I would say that the loader and the pilot are on essentially the same deal.

You see this is why the pension trustees employ experts to advise them rather than just doing the sums themselves on the back of a fag packet.

[tristar500]

Rumours surfacing yet again as to the 'future' of BA... With all the chaos currently engulfing the company this may not be too far from the truth...
Share-price going down steadily pre strike - quicker than the Titanic post strike, making ideal conditions for a take-over. Story has it that EK looked into buying a major stake in BA last year, but didnt want the 'Regional/Domestic' part of the business. Well well well... Now that the regional side of things has been decided (even if flybe pull out of the deal, BA will chop Connect), LGW flights to NCL suspended from summer schedule, LGW to EDI-GLA-MAN being looked at with a microscope, Cabin crew almost out on strike etc etc it makes interesting reading in that anyone with a bit of spare cash (Sheiks, Princes, Kings and Rulers) could easily pick up BA for a song, and inherit a lot of problems, BUT inherit the entire route network, aircraft and crews, infrastructure and slots at LHR and also the knowledge that things could only get better (with investment) - provided they kicked WWs ass from Bovingdon to high-heaven!
With BMED and GB also going through some turbulence, who knows. Stranger things have happened and with the little green man from over the water (so he is) at the controls, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!

[ETOPS]

I think I've spotted a flaw with your theory.

The share price is actually going up - closed at 527p yesterday .

[tristar500]

I think I've spotted a flaw with your theory.
The share price is actually going up - closed at 527p yesterday .
Point taken... Yesterday though and it has been up in the 30s (539...)

Wait until Monday... Bookings down considerably on this time last year - more so since the threat of strike action.
WW will have to pull something out of his big top hat to salvage not only BA but his career. These are ideal conditions for shareholders to sell-up while they still can. Iam not saying it will happen, but its a possability.
PS - If BA were a football team they would be facing relegation - and would have had a new manager / management team in place by now :D
Struggling isnt the word. Whats more is that who is backing WW? Its certainly not the staff, and Ive heard the 'City' are very nervous about the way things are going. He seems to be on a mission to destroy the company. Now that GMB ground staff have been balloted on strike action whos next? The GMB ground staff vote closes on Tuesday 31JAN07 - 7 days later, an official strike 'could' take place - legally :ugh:

[MNT]

Point taken... Yesterday though.
Wait until Monday... Bookings down considerably on this time last year - more so since the threat of strike action.
WW will have to pull something out of his big top hat to salvage not only BA but his career. These are ideal conditions for shareholders to sell-up while they still can. Iam not saying it will happen, but its a possability.
PS - If BA were a football team they would be facing relegation - and would have had a new manager / management team in place by now :D
Or transferred out some of the overpaid under performing palyers!

[tristar500]

Or transferred out some of the overpaid under performing palyers!


Well said :ok:

[biddedout]

Could be a lot in what you say, but what do you make of son of Bacon - City Flyer re-emerging supposedly based in Edinburgh. Where does that fit in to the picture? Only a few RJs at the moment, but watch this space.

Can anything be read into the fact that it is run from the same not so mini Waterside in Manchester formerly inhabited by Connect (with 20,000 square feet per Manager now), or can that just be put down to the usual extravagance of the super reconstituted self proclaimed Leadership Team and it's continued BA bad spending habit. The very same team which bu**ered up Bacon and with the same MD who walked away from the wreckage of Bacon into his new play station with a huge pile of share options.

Meanwhile, despite the huge amount of managers in Waterworld, for the last few months up north of the M4, it has been impossible to get something as simple as a couple of hundred kg of ballast. Flights are delayed up to 30 mins due to the search for non existent sand bags.

How many late sippers from head office would it take to put together a project to fill and provide 50 sand bags fro the regions? lets start with the focus goup..... the risk assesment team,.. the meeting schedule planners.... should be in place by July, long after its all closed down:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:.

[Ghostflyer]

Rimmer and Carnage,

Who cares? This isn't CC vs FD, this is CC vs BA. Rimmer, you are wasting time bickering with the wrong people. If you want to win your strike, get public sympathy and then get BASSA to win their arguments. At the moment neither is happening and cliffs and lemmings spring to mind!

Ghost

[tristar500]

Biddedout - You are quite right...
Its just a 'quick-fix' with a lot of simmilarities and likenesses to Connect... to try and establish yet another 'LONDON' operation except everything is based up North to stop BA paying London wages...
BA have seen how profitable the EDI-LCY operation is - even with the RBS input and demands... However it is a good earner.
BUT - as we at EDI were told by a BA Manager 'We (BA) cant run our operation on the bank of promises...' which leads me to wonder how long this 'new' operation will last - the length of the RBS contract? Or longer, with the expansion of routes out of LCY to Europe for 'Big Brother'.
There was NO real investment in the new company being set up was there, despite all the hype in November. The name, AOC, aircraft, staff etc are already there. Just a paperwork excersise really... Transfer everything from Connect to the 'mothballed' name of Cityflier. Wonder if they got a bonus for comming up with that one - who ever they were!
10 Avro aircraft to be based in EDI - will there be enough slots into LCY - NO.
8 x RJ100 and 2 x RJ85. Rumour has it that the Avro fleet may well take over LGW / LHR flights during the quiet spells of the day.
Ballast - ah we have plenty in EDI... Pitty its scattered all over the vehicle parking areas (and loose). We cant even get a GPU or an airstart to work in EDI these days. Its pathetic and getting worse by the day. Fed up appoligising to crews and passengers about the delays caused by lack of equipement and staff on the ground. Again, maybe when the groundhandling tender is announced it will all become clear! Aviance have just taken delivery of 4 brand new tugs, 4 brand new GPUs and 2 airstart units, as well as 2 brand new Hi-Lo container lifters - at EDI... They are hard to hide from the BA staff and get the mind working overtime!!!
Still, not as bad as the bmi rumour that they will operate most EDI-LHR with EMB145s during the summer!!!

[TopBunk]

I'm sure that I either read (here or papers) or heard (radio) that WW still has loads of dirt on the T&G after the Gate Gourmet fiasco of 2005. Lots of info was apparently gleaned from the confidential hotline that BA set up at the time on which employees could let the company know who the 'trouble makers' were. We all know that 2 or 3 were discplined /sacked as a result, but as I understand it, the company had much residual dirt on the T&G over its role in the organising of the affair. I just wonder whether or not WW is playing these cards in the discussions with Tony Woodley this weekend?

[Carnage Matey!]

The Independent reported they were!

[Human Factor]

....with a bit of spare cash (Sheiks, Princes, Kings and Rulers) could easily pick up BA for a song....

Unfortunately if they do, they will get exactly what they pay for as BA will only be worth a song. If new owners aren't UK based, BA lose their profitable Atlantic traffic rights and hence any possible incentive for anyone to actually buy them in the first place.

[OscarCOG]

The 2 that were sacked were employed by T&G and given a 6 figure payout. :yuk: £600, 000 to be exact (http://travel.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1874849,00.html) :yuk:
Things must have been entirely above board then. :mad:

[Carnage Matey!]

Tony Woodley issued a statement yesterday that the cabin crew were not industrial militants. That would explain why the talks have been going so slowly - he spent yesterday at the wrong meeting! Best get back to dealing with the BA crew Tony and not whoever it was you were talking about yesterday.:E

[stormin norman]

Maybe not all the cabin crew are militant but a delve into Mr Woodley and Mr Dromeys past would confirm they are anything but militant-has any of them ever had a real job ?

[Joetom]

BA paid cash to some people involved in those wildcat strikes, it's obvious BA will now try and get back those payments back with hugh interest from this point on.
.
If BA get the dirty washing out on how they deal with the unions over wildcats, they will open a dirty dustbin and come second in the PR war.
.
Rimmer, keep up your good posts, if pensions for all staff at BA was fair the fish would stop biting, fair play to one section that want to seal their pension deal with the company, BA may have been thinking that if BALPA was happy others would be the same, but now appears the other unions are playing their cards and the deal that BA has offered BALPA is a problem for BA, withdraw the deal and BALPA will be on strike, fail to offer it to all the other sections and they will all be going on strikes.
.
Always problems, problems, problems of late, how about a bit of direction, is Colin M available to steer the company back on course?:)

[Flying Lawyer]

Joetom

Any idea why theTGWU is proposing to pay the two shop stewards who organised the wildcat strike by baggage-handlers which brought BA to a standstill more than £500,000?

Any idea why a condition of the payment is that the men agree not to reveal anything about the union role in the strike without the TGWU’s written approval in advance of what they intend to say?

In my experience, confidentiality clauses are only put in to legally binding agreements when people are very anxious to stop certain information becoming more widely known. I wonder what it is the TGWU is so concerned to keep secret.

BA sacked them both and subsequently offered one £90,000 in compensation and the other a penny. The £90K has been added to the TGWU’s £half million and divided between them. (I don’t know who gets the penny. :) )

[Wingswinger]

I am speechless. Precipitate a wildcat stike which costs a company £42m and get compensation of lottery proportions for subsequent justified dismissal!

What does this say about the value to companies, legislators and ministers and to our common humanity about honest, dedicated and hard-working folk.

This country is not going down the pan; it went some time ago.

[GS-Alpha]

withdraw the deal and BALPA will be on strike, fail to offer it to all the other sections and they will all be going on strikes.
Or perhaps BA will decide that this time it is better to stop the false rumours and publish exactly what the deal is for all employees. Then everyone will realise that they have an excellent deal.

As for offering it to all other sections; if you want to have your NRA increased by 10 years, be my guest! There are plenty of pilots who want the percentage loss to one's pension to be consistent across the entire airline, so be careful what you wish for. I guarantee you would lose more money if it were so.

[stormin norman]

Quote
Any idea why theTGWU is proposing to pay the two shop stewards who organised the wildcat strike by baggage-handlers which brought BA to a standstill more than £500,000?

And who's probally authorized paying them-yes its Tony Woodly and Jack dromey,and out of who's pocket-the members of BASSA of course.
Come on Tony and Co tell us otherwise ?

[Flying Lawyer]

Come on Tony and Co tell us otherwise ?

You'll be lucky to get much out of them -

The shop stewards were allegedly following TGWU orders.
BA could have sued the TGWU for the cost of the illegal strike if it could prove involvement by union officials in urging the baggage handlers to strike.
The men apparently received legal advice that they could sue the TGWU for negligence for allegedly ordering them to take the illegal action which resulted in their losing their jobs at BA.
The settlement deal guarantees them a total payout worth £600,000. (One of them gets a job in the TGWU, allegedly @ £50,000 p.a.)
Under the agreement, if they wish to say anything about what happened, they have to obtain the written consent of the general secretary, in advance, personally approving what they propose to say
The confidentiality clause allegedly even extends to their wives.


The strict secrecy seems very odd, if everything TGWU officials did was legal and above board.
And, if it was, £600K seems a rather generous 'goodwill' gesture.

[openfly]

I would like to congratulate this person for the most sensible post on this subject.

[egbt]

My own travel plans for next week have been wrecked. I am one of those who has been onto BA today - The call centre staff are amazing. They even maintained a professional stance regarding their colleagues who have forced them into this position.

I quite agree, fortunately they were able to move my flight forward so I have an extra 3 days vacation (at, of course, a cost and with one shortish hop in tourist rather than 1st)

[stormin norman]

The strict secrecy seems very odd, if everything TGWU officials did was legal and above board.
And, if it was, £600K seems a rather generous 'goodwill' gesture.

True, but the world is full of goodwill gestures using other peoples money !

[Rainboe]

I find it incredible people are trying to use this squalid dispute as a means to attack the pilots who have reluctantly accepted a not very welcome increase in retirement age of 10 years. I would encourage them to insist that all the ground unions accept the same deal of an increase in retirement age of 10 years for 'fairness'! Rimmer and Joetom seem to want the same deal for an increase of 5 years!
The scandalous behaviour of the TGWU in the last dispute they 'mentored' should have resulted in a criminal or Parliamentary enquiry, but it seems to suit all parties to 'keep quiet' about it. I believe the Police should have been involved as criminal activity took place, but we all have to pretend it didn't happen!
I'm still amused by Tristar 500s post on page 44:
Wait until Monday... Bookings down considerably on this time last year - more so since the threat of strike action.
WW will have to pull something out of his big top hat to salvage not only BA but his career. These are ideal conditions for shareholders to sell-up while they still can. Iam not saying it will happen, but its a possability.
PS - If BA were a football team they would be facing relegation - and would have had a new manager / management team in place by now
Struggling isnt the word. Whats more is that who is backing WW? Its certainly not the staff, and Ive heard the 'City' are very nervous about the way things are going. He seems to be on a mission to destroy the company. Now that GMB ground staff have been balloted on strike action whos next? The GMB ground staff vote closes on Tuesday 31JAN07 - 7 days later, an official strike 'could' take place - legally

So...yes!... Result! Bookings down! Let's really bugger our jobs! And let's try and shake the share price by trying to remove confidence in WW and get shareholder to sell! Where did you 'hear' the 'City' are nervous? I think everyone, City included, want the BA staff to work properly and efficiently, something some groups are most certainly not doing, led by CC at the moment. I think the problem is being 'sorted'! He needs to do what he's doing so BA doesn't go the way of Pan Am, TWA and many others!

[Jet II]

I'm still amused by Tristar 500s post on page 44:
So...yes!... Result! Bookings down! Let's really bugger our jobs! And let's try and shake the share price by trying to remove confidence in WW and get shareholder to sell! Where did you 'hear' the 'City' are nervous? I think everyone, City included, want the BA staff to work properly and efficiently, something some groups are most certainly not doing, led by CC at the moment. I think the problem is being 'sorted'! He needs to do what he's doing so BA doesn't go the way of Pan Am, TWA and many others!

Considering that we have had a thread on this forum for the past year with flight crew threatening to go on strike its a bit rich to start worrying about shareholders and the City now.

[Rainboe]

The point is the pilots negotiated from the basis of trying to reach a settlement, had a thorough benchmarking process carried out to compare the efficiency of BA pilots in relation to other UK carriers, and have always been willing to compromise and change their ways to become more efficient. Contrast that with CC who have been paid individually to accept the Sickness process and now want it torn up, and have changed none of their ways or become more efficient. So why is this discussion turning all the time to attack the pilots on industrial issues and Pensions for goodness sake. I know the best form of defence is attack, but it's a bit appalling all you can all find to attack is the pilots! Really!

[Preppy]

Rainboe,

I presume that the following comments are tongue in cheek ..pilots.....change their ways to become more efficient
I think you will find that there are many restrictive ("spanish") practices buried within the BA bid line rules. e.g. Do you still remember the "heavy" captain on long range routes? :oh:

Cast your mind back a few years to '97 and you will recall that BA's Cabin Crew employed since then are on substantially reduced salaries. The recent agreement at LGW betwen BA & the Cabin Crew TUs has ensured that the LGW crew have "market rates". Actually many are leaving within a short period of time because they can't make ends meet.

May I refer you to the BA accounts for the last year:
Wages went up from £1.518bn to £1.558bn (2.6% up)
Directors emoluments went up from £2.433m to £4.900m (101% up)

Says it all really.;)

[Carnage Matey!]

Do you still remember the "heavy" captain on long range routes?

Yep. The heavy Captain was looked at in the last pay reform, and the associated expense of the heavy was costed into the solution. We could have got rid of the heavy and redistributed the budgetary savings into our individual paypackets but we decided it was better to keep the command positions. Of course the cabin crew could keep the fourth pursers if they were willing to pay for it during a pay restructure, but they want to keep the purser for nothing.

Cast your mind back a few years to '97 and you will recall that BA's Cabin Crew employed since then are on substantially reduced salaries.

Quite, but prior to 97 they were on salaries that were grossly above market rate. Since 97 they are only significantly above market rate. Remember its not just about pay, it's about how many hours flying you contribute and on Eurofleet that is not very much at all.

The recent agreement at LGW betwen BA & the Cabin Crew TUs has ensured that the LGW crew have "market rates". Actually many are leaving within a short period of time because they can't make ends meet.

And long may those market rates continue. Perhaps many are leaving because they can't make ends meet, or perhaps it's because many see the job the way BA want it to be seen - a short term job and not a career. Many more are staying at LGW and they can't all be living with their parents. I suspect the problem with most of the people who can't make ends meet is not the low pay but their inability to budget/live within their means. There is an interesting thread here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259105) on the CC forum. Perhaps they should read the postings of GalleyChick who seems to survive in London on £1100-£1200 per month plus some allowances. Well within the take home of pay of any BA cabin crew member.

May I refer you to the BA accounts for the last year:
Wages went up from £1.518bn to £1.558bn (2.6% up)
Directors emoluments went up from £2.433m to £4.900m (101% up)

Says it all really.;)

I agree entirely. Snouts in the trough.

[pips]

You think ba lgw pay market rates ,I picked up 950.21pds this mth with allowance . easy jet ,virgin crew payed more ,lhr crew payed more 10,500.
lgw 9,9042pa. something very wrong with this company it stinks

[Carnage Matey!]

What only £200 of allowances all month? What was your roster?

[Da Dog]

Before or after crewcard deductions?? If you think it is that bad go and work for Virgin:sad:

[pips]

What only £200 of allowances all month? What was your roster?

since i started in june ive only once taken home 1,100pds. my allowances, have never passed the 350 mark .i would gladly show my pay slips for all to see ,they lied at the inteveiw 500pds + per mth next time you fly out of lgw,
ask the new crew how they are finding lgw and you will get the same reply,
also ask what they where told at interveiw,the managment know all about this little problem

[sayen02]

Since "sick days" are so prominent in this it seems to me that not much has changed since the '97 dispute. As I recall, about 300 people actually struck for a couple of days or so, but the airline effectively ground to a halt for the best part of 2 weeks because of the number who called in "sick". That gave an opportunity to get actual "normal" sickness numbers, and compare rates for pilots and cabin crew. At that time, I had a very low level semi-management position in BA and wrote to Sandra Mooney who was head of BAMS (med services), along the following lines.
Time off "sick" can be caused by 3 basic things.

1) - general health problems - ordinary stuff including illnesses and accidents - ALL crew (cabin and pilots) should be same as general population or better as general health is something of a selection requirement, and age profile is somewhat better than general population.

2) "Job induced" sickness - includes food poisoning / stomach upsets down route, effects of altitude, circadian rhythm (timechange and shifts) etc, humidity, physical accidents e.g due turbulence etc.. These are real and outside general population numbers. Also some general health issues e.g colds etc are more significant for crew due to the altitude/humidity factors, hence generfal advice not to fly with these conditions. Some of these are likely to be the same for pilots as for CC. others more severe for CC as their job is definitely more physical

3) "Social" sickness taking unscheduled time off and using health as as an excuse. In my experience this was virtually unknown in the pilot group but widely accepted as necessary among cabin crew.

My suggestion to Dr Mooney was that BA Med Svcs ought to get a grip on the whole issue of "crew sickness", and if they did this analysis objectively they could help the airline enormously, because in my opinion the key to it was putting some numbers to what I guessed would be a vastly different "social sickeness" rate between pilots and CC. You'd then have to ask why does this difference exist, and a bit of research would show that pilots actually HAD had a higher social sickness rate many years earlier, so why had it gone down?

That would lead to the root of BA's problem, which can be summarised as "who controls your life?". As a result of negotiations in the 70s BA's pilots have a great deal more say in their own lives both career wise and day to day than CC do.

BA's attitude to its cabin crew was "the contract means that WE own your entire life, we will give you bits of it back when and as we see fit". The inevitable result is that individuals take back what control they really do need on an ad-hoc basis, i.e. by going "sick", and by definition this is always at very short notice. This makes it impossible to plan crewing levels effectively as although you know you will have on average say 7% call in sick, you never know what specific flight and position will be affected. So you use your "ownership iof their lives" to have lots of standbys mixed in with "planned" work, although only a few will be used on any given day. But because you think you "own" all the individuals, you are at liberty to disrupt any personal plans they have by changing their subsequent work pattern at will when you DO use them. Never mind, you have lots of standbys to call on to cover that.... making the problem worse. Neither side respects the other's position, both sides know there are plenty of standbys and no-one believes flight schedules and individual lives can be compatible with one another so why try?

Unfortunately; the impression I had then was that CC management would NEVER accept any restriction on their right to micro-manage all CC time at whim, while the CC reps would NEVER admit that in fact, the social sickness DID occur on a massive scale, or that they could actually trust their own members to act responsibly.

Med services clearly thought it was way too hot a topic and wouldn't go near it. So here we are 10 years later, and still no-one seemes to want to face up to what's really going on. They've cut the sickness down from 22 to 12 days by draconian methods which ostensibly assume that all sickness is related to health issues, when much of it isn't about health at all, though neither side can actually admit it because of the impact it would have on their proclaimed "policy"!

Reps can't admit that their members DO fake it, management can't admit that it's their scheduling systems that causes it. End result - poor bloody passengers get screwed around and the airline goes down the tubes.

Has anything much changed? I'm out of the loop but it doesn't look like it from here. Sadly, I'll be on EZ instead of BA tomorrow.
End of rant.

[Glamgirl]

Seems to me a lot of new crew don't want to listen to us "old and wise" crew. I use the old and wise in the loosest form of course ;)

Fair enough, if whoever called you and offered you the job at LGW said you would get 500 pounds allowance every month. What you and everyone else I've told have to keep in mind, is that we're a little bit over crewed at the moment, and because we have so many new crew, rostas are not of the norm at the moment. We are working mainly 3 crew at the moment on the 73, which doesn't help either. As soon as the last 3 routes are with us, you should start seeing an improvement. If it's any consolation, pursers are working their behind off at the moment, and for all the money in the world, I'd rather have some rest. The thing is, you can't please everyone all of the time. What I'd recommend you do, especially if you have lots of standbys, is to phone scheduling after 6pm the day before your home standby. That's when next day's gaps get allocated. Ask them if there are any gaps and tell them you're willing to do anything. Some crew already do this, but say no to doubles and other flights they don't like. There's a limit on how many doubles you can do anyway (read your MOA), so say yes to anything.

Also, learn all you can about the bidding system. Ask if you like, most people are happy to help. Actually, if you need some help with bidding, pm me and I'll do my best to explain it.

If you want to leave, fine. But if you want to work with fun crew who look after each other, stay with us for a while and see if things get better for you. Yes, it's unfair we don't get paid the same as Lhr, but we'll just have to deal with it. I can recommend some saving money tips as well if you like.

[Dash-7 lover]

BA CREW - want the most amount of money for the least amount of work
VS CREW - get the least amount of money for a huge amount of work

Just have to look at the happy smiling faces on a BA flight that can't be arsed to lift a finger to help and all they seemed to be interested in is how much money they can screw out of the company - just have to look at some of the stupid union agreements that contributed to BA Connects eventual downfall!

[brighton_rocks]

My other half used to work for BA but now works for BMI, but you can bet your bottom dollar that they would always used to get called out on standby for all the crap routes like Entebbe (sorry if spelt wrong) because the operating crew always had "mystery illnesses". My view is BA management should monitor sickness and if over so many days sickness a year, get doctors notes, on the side of starting pay, keep it as is, but introduce a profit share based on sickness levels and company profit levels - ie multiple sickness - lose your profit share and for colleagues that bail you out take the larger slice of the pie, thats fair!
We have even known former colleagues take long term sickness to spend 6 months in Australia to be with their boyfriend!!! :\

[biddedout]

If you knew this was happening, why didn't you do something about it and report them?

[Rainboe]

Indeed there are problems with crew at LHR that need dealing with!

[Blueprint]

Recently I note Rainboe had some pithy views on the reasons and future outcome of the dispute.
With the breakdown of talks and 1 day left before the strike starts, I fear BA is about to go over the abyss.
Once people are sacked for breach of contract then reinstatement is added to the list of grievances. With an Official dispute, under current UK Trade Union law, 90 days have to elapse before BA can recruit a new workforce and ignore those who have been on strike.
As they are likely to lose approx £25M pd, then we are talking of £2B of debt to be added to the £2B of pension debt. The company will not survive this burden.
It is odd that the share price went up last week, (I assumed inside knowledge of a successful outcome). Now I feel it must be a hidden bidder.

[openfly]

The BA share price has gone up for two reasons.
1. The city, and large investors, are in agreement with the situation that Willie Walsh has arrived at. This a chance to bring the cabin-crew to heal, at last, after many years.
2. A hostile bid is about to be made for BA. When that happens new contracts of employment will be offered. The optimum share price for BA is £8 per share. So at £5.35 the shares are extremely cheap. The cabin crew strike will only help keep the price depressed and a buy-out more likely.
IMHO ... hang on to your shares!

[Human Factor]

With an Official dispute, under current UK Trade Union law, 90 days have to elapse before BA can recruit a new workforce and ignore those who have been on strike.
A loophole in the law allows them to recruit long before this limit if the job description is changed. This does not mean that the job itself is changing. It is also not unknown for strikers to be told that their job is ending and unless they accept a new job (read new job description and Terms and Conditions), they will have to leave. In law, that is deemed to be a resignation, ergo no compensation. Don't put it past them....

[Jet II]

Also remember that it didnt take 90 days for Gate Gourmet to replace their workers when they went out on strike.

[SNasty]

A loophole in the law allows them to recruit long before this limit if the job description is changed. This does not mean that the job itself is changing. It is also not unknown for strikers to be told that their job is ending and unless they accept a new job (read new job description), they will have to leave. In law, that is deemed to be a resignation, ergo no compensation. Don't put it past them....

But, if you read the BASSA web site it states "You can not be sacked for striking" and they state this in large red letters, which we all knows makes something law...!!!!

God knows I'm getting it quoted at me by CC all the time. I'm very surprised that a union would make a statement like that to be honest. No doubt that page will vanish if BA do start taking action.

[Human Factor]

Not trying to pick a fight at all. I'm surprised BASSA hasn't furnished people with the information as striking involves taking a few risks. I remember a lot of us badgered BALPA when a pilot's strike looked likely and they provided us with all the information we needed. We were never told that you couldn't be sacked for striking because it's incorrect.

Granted, it's not necessarily either a good or easy decision for a company to sack strikers as compensation has to be paid if the strike is legal, as this one appears to be. However, the compensation is limited to a maximum of £58000 (under some circumstances, it may even be a cheaper option to pay that than retain staff) and there is no requirement to reinstate.

I posted a reference a few posts back to the DTI website which has a lot of this information.

[SNasty]

I posted a reference a few posts back to the DTI website which has a lot of this information.

...and you have my thanks for doing so, when I went through your post and the DTI web site with my CC PSR partner it was the final straw that made her change unions... She accepts that BA may have told her some porkies connected with this dispute but she knows her union has, how can she trust them in any capacity from now on.

"You can NOT be sacked" is a very clear and incorrect statement from people that know better, we normally call such things lies. When a union lies to its members it's all over in my book, you have all lost.

[Human Factor]

Click here for another UK government link with some interesting information. Perhaps someone wants to copy this to the BASSA site. (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TradeUnions/DG_10031235)

Hope it helps make things clearer. I'm staying neutral in the debate as to whether or not BASSA should strike. I just want those who decide that it's what they want to do to be in full possession of the facts. I have CC friends who are intent on striking and they are now well aware of the implications.

[M.Mouse]

.........90 days have to elapse before BA can recruit a new workforce and ignore those who have been on strike.
As they are likely to lose approx £25M pd, then we are talking of £2B of debt to be added to the £2B of pension debt. The company will not survive this burden.

You are making the assumption that all CC will strike and forgetting that the only ones seen to be striking will be those rostered to report on each day of the strike. Therefore, it would be quite possible to see a few dozen sacked on the first day. Watch the rest come scurrying back then, should that happen. The rest of your post is far fetched and less than useful.

A hostile bid is about to be made for BA. When that happens new contracts of employment will be offered. The optimum share price for BA is £8 per share. So at £5.35 the shares are extremely cheap. The cabin crew strike will only help keep the price depressed and a buy-out more likely.
IMHO ... hang on to your shares!

Care to elaborate on your rather fanciful comments above?

[Flying Lawyer]

Much has been made by the pro-strike lobby, here and elsewhere, of the 96.1% vote in favour of a strike.

That's 96.1% of Bassa members who voted; 20% didn't vote.
Also, not all BA CC belong to Bassa.

Does anyone know what percentage of BA CC have actually voted to strike?

My very rough calculation makes it less than 60%.

[old,not bold]

It makes little difference now whether a CC strike takes place or not; any passenger who lives on this planet has rebooked by now. Operating empty aircraft, other than to position them, would simply add operating costs without earning more than a tiny amount of revenue.

A White Knight is unlikely to come charging in to buy BA as a going concern and keep everyone's jobs open.

For an investor, BA is a financial basket case. Its cabin staff are triumphantly killing its profitability, and its balance sheet has a big black hole called pensions.

There would be plenty of people wanting to buy the assets, including slots, and lose the obligations, and they are probably forming an orderly queue. But they will be less interested in the obligations. Any purchase that imposes TUPE obligations on a buyer is unlikely.

It's probably too late, but I think what we wrinklies were hoping for was a reality check by CC, ignoring their 1970's-style union. But it's a vain hope.

[Litebulbs]

M Mouse

I am sure their will be more than a few dozen crew on strike each day. I hope ths is a nice enough respnonse so as not to be deleted?!

[CaptJ]

M. Mouse, I'll elaborate for Openfly.
Just such a scenario has been discussed several times in the financial sections recently. Most recently in the FT last week I recall. BA is deemed to be vulnerable to a takeover bid and reasonable value at £8 IF labour issues are resolved. That is the price that an offer would have to be pitched at.
The City is betting on this being the case and shares have been rising steadily for some months now.

BTW lets not have the ill informed rant from anyone about BA being protected from takeover by route agreements. It only makes the construction of a bid more complicated. Bi-lateral agreements do not protect BA to the extent that some might wish. A bit too much wishful thinking around from some supporters of this strike methinks.

[Carnage Matey!]

The labour issues are far from resolved in BA. It's all well and good to say that someone would like to buy the assets but not the obligations, but if it was that easy then BA's management, who already have the assets, would have already gotten rid of the obligations.

[Joetom]

If the company should make the headlines about sacking Cabin Crew in the next few days/weeks, please try and guess what the service levels would be like for the passengers for a long long long time, think they call it "shooting yourself in the foot".
.
The company has a history of poor PR even with little issues, with the present feelings inside the company and a 96.1% of votes on show looks like this one has all the makings of another fine mess that will take years if ever to fix.
.

[Megaton]

So company sack cc, cc take it out on fare-paying passengers who ultimately pay our wages? Professional, responsible? Wouldn't just be WW who'd be shooting themselves in the foot!

[Carnage Matey!]

96%? 8130 yes votes from 14500 crew tells a different story, and a good proportion of those 8130 don't actually know why they are going on strike. Now the big day looms closer they are starting to realise that they really are going to have to do this and they are not happy about it. Apparently the BASSA website is red hot with demands for news, allegations of capitulation, reports of whole crews refusing to strike, threats towards strikebreakers and more than a few people asking what they are striking about. That doesn't sound like the makings of a cohesive and resolute union to me.

[Not my job mate]

It seems that BASSA has put the very real problem of POVERTY !! pay levels for new starters on the back burners. I think as 100% of BA staff realize that none of the CC are on poverty pay scales , it does not take too great a leap to assume that the public would not believe this rubbish.

We live in a wonderful free society (sort of) that means you are free to escape these poverty levels at anytime and get a job that pays the wage you feel you deserve.

Cheerio

[Megaton]

Did anyone hear chap from Standard Life this morning on Radio 4? Standard Life are a major shareholder (apparently) and his view was that WW maintains the confidence of the City and that there might be short term pain for the company but his stance will pay dividends (literally!) in the longer term.

[Joetom]

Had BALPA needed and got a vote of 96.1% for IA, it would be a different story, like, what a great job they doing, BASSA is doing its level best to look after its members and that is what people need to remember.
.
Some posts on here seem to think Cabin Crew are on holiday when at work, this is not the case, they are as a general rule hard working staff that keep the customers happy over long periods of time, time to take stock and look after staff like these, they like the rest of the staff have bills to pay.:ok:

[Satan]

Joe, I think you are missing one very major point.

Had BALPA got a 96% vote for the strike action planned as a nuclear option over pensions, then that would have been an accurate reflection of what the membership would ACTUALLY do. Hence why we were negotiating from a position of strength; BALPA had told it's member long ago to start preparing as the pensions debate MAY go right to the wire, had pemployed an outside agency to independently poll its member on what they would ACTUALLY do, whether they would strike for x and y, but not z etc, and always made sure that we were aware of exactly what the employment law covering legal industrial action is.

BASSA have done none of the above. They have not accurately informed their members of employment law, not advised them in sufficient time to prepare (and don't tell me they didn't see this coming, I don't believe that for one moment.) In my view, they are grossly negligient in the manner with which they have communicated with their membership.
I'm also neutral in this; I don't personally believe they are on strong enough ground to push the big red button, but they have. I feel more for the staff affected and our life-blood, the passengers who are being grossly inconvenienced.

Sun Tzu said in the Art of War (and I paraphrase as my memory is crap) "Wise Generals win the war, then go to battle."

Satan

[Flying Lawyer]

Joetom

96.1% of Bassa members who voted were in favour of strike action. What percentage of all BA CC have voted in favour of a strike?
Bassa has refused BA's repeated offer to refer the dispute to ACAS for conciliation and independent arbitration. Do you agree with Bassa's refusal? If 'Yes', why?

[Litebulbs]

Satan

So what you are saying is, that if things had not gone to plan via negotiation, the pilots would have gone on strike? Was that the outcome of BALPA's consultative ballot? You are right, you do have a position of power, a single union with a high percentage of membership. But surely, a pilots strikeover pensions would not be in the interests of the customer?

[SNasty]

They have not accurately informed their members of employment law

You are being kind with your choice of wording, but a little diplomacy is what's lacking from many angles in this issue so I'll forgive you...

:)

[7Heroes]

I dont think WW will go down the route of sackings as how will he distinguish between them on the day.Surely the risk is that he will announce that due to financil losses etc and the downturn in passengers numbers he will simply ground one of the fleets (767 most likely) and announce compulsory redundencies.It doesnt target the strikers but with another 2 strikes planned the most junior 1000 or so CC might start to have second thoughts.

[Jumpjim]

Satan
So what you are saying is, that if things had not gone to plan via negotiation, the pilots would have gone on strike? Was that the outcome of BALPA's consultative ballot? You are right, you do have a position of power, a single union with a high percentage of membership. But surely, a pilots strikeover pensions would not be in the interests of the customer?
What precisely does the interests of the customer have to do with us striking over our pensions?
At the end of the day we are all professionals who do our damnedest year in and year out to get our customers from A to B safely.
But at the end of the day our pension is part of our remuneration for doing the job. If BA want to reduce my pension by 56% (that was the figure I got from BA direct) then I am going to be SERIOUSLY unhappy with it.
If, as a result, the customers suffer then we can but apologise. But luckily we have an excellent BALPA team who seem to have sorted it all out to everybodys satisfaction. But, yes, I would have gone on strike, and I emailed Willie Walsh, and Lloyd CG to tell them both personally.

[Litebulbs]

Well, it has to to with the right to strike really. You have that right, and cleary, you would have taken it. I imagine the majority of your FD colleagues would have joined you. BALPA at BA enjoy almost 100% membership and hense a very strong negotiating point. Qutie a high percentage of posts on this thread have been from flightdeck, taking the moral high ground about strikes affecting customers, when it is not them that are taking action.

[ETOPS]

But surely, a pilots strike over pensions would not be in the interests of the customer?

Of course not - but very much in my interests.

BA only responds to credible threats and the BALPA pension campaign delivered exactly that - a guarantee that if WW and team wanted to push us to the limit then we would have "withdrawn our labour".

The phrase I used at the time was "no pilots = no 'planes, no passengers, no profits"

It worked............

[Final 3 Greens]

BBC Radio just announced (14h00 GMT) that this week's strike is called off.

[Speedpig]

BBC Radio just announced (14h00 GMT) that this week's strike is called off.

TV news the same... not official yet???

[kiwi1]

Apparently the strike has been called off, as per a text I have just seen, from w/in BA.
Excellent news, (if it is correct ...) and now everyone can hopefully get on with sorting thru the finer points (like EG300/attendance policy)
A very pleased (and relieved) Kiwi1 (I like my job :-)) ) !!
:E :ok: :E

[mary_hinge]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6309471.stm

Union calls off BA strike action

A planned two-day strike by thousands of British Airways cabin crew has been called off, the airline has said.
Talks between BA and the Transport and General Workers Union had been going on to try and avert the stoppages on Tuesday and Wednesday.

BA executives and union leaders said an agreement had been reached on the key issue of pay and the management of sickness absence.

BA will now attempt to reinstate as many flights as pos

[old,not bold]

J I feel more for the staff affected and our life-blood, the passengers who are being grossly inconvenienced.Satan

Dear BASSA Members (Satan, I know you're not necessarily one),

Please don't feel sorry for us, we've already gone elsewhere. It's been a bit inconvenient to rebook, but that's a one-off, we've saved a bit of money, and confirmed what we already knew, that other airlines, including LCCs, are actually as good as or better than BA, operate the same routes and many more, and are pleased to see us.

Signed: The SLF.

PS For the same reason, please don't concern yourselves about "taking it out on the passengers". Broadly speaking, we're not stupid enough to stick around while you do that. So you go right ahead, and take it out on rows of empty seats to your heart's content, unless you're pulling a sickie. The Job Centre will be quite full, though, so enjoy all that empty space while
you can.

PPS Just read the news the strike is off. Obviously that's for the ggod. But only "this week"? Too late for most, though; we'll not be changing our bookings back again, and nor will others, I suspect.

[manintheback]

South Africa here I come - might be a bit lonely on board?

[keel beam]

The cabin crew have stated (and possibly the union) that they want to give BA a bloody nose. This is what they are achieving at the moment. The union are on a dodgy wicket, perhaps that is why the General Secretary is now involved. How can the union save face? We will have to wait and see. I suspect the strike will be called off at the last minute, but too late to stop the majority of cancellations – BA’s nose well bloodied and CC don’t lose wages to boot!

No suprise then :D

[egbt]

South Africa here I come - might be a bit lonely on board?
Well I going there later in the week (and the weather looks nice, in the 90's recently but more moderate now) all 1st class taken (I am BA Mile of course) I assume by those, like me, moved from a strike day.

From BA web site:

British Airways today welcomed the decision by the cabin crew branch of the Transport and General Workers’ Union to call off the strikes scheduled for tomorrow and Wednesday and for two 72-hour periods next month.

[Da Dog]

I understand 2 very senior BASSA reps have just resigned:oh:

[Speedpig]

I understand 2 very senior BASSA reps have just resigned:oh:
As reps, or from the airline?

[Yak97]

So is this (to my simple mind) a double whammy for BA in that, having lost lots of money from passengers who have transferred to alternative carriers (and probably won't want to risk changing back), BA now will attempt to run the original schedules, which might not have any passengers on, thus spending more money on DOC's etc that they would not have spent if there had been the strike?????

[Speedpig]

BA shares have gone up 12p since the announcement!
Who's buying?

[747-436]

Good news for everyone involved, although how much damage the dispute, getting this far, has done to BA's reputation, won't be seen for a while.

Hope the deal has been done so that the same issues don;t crop up and bring similar problems in years to come.

[MaxRange120]

Full details just reported on bbc news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6309471.stm

[Dogs_ears_up]

I'm confused - the BBC report on the link above quotes WW as saying We have always said that our cabin crew do an excellent job and we believe this agreement lays a firm foundation to enable us to provide even higher standards of onboard service for customers in the future.
As non-BA Cabin Crew, we've never had the opportunity to threaten strike action, cause chaos for thousands and cost our employer millions in lost revenue: Instead, we've had to concentrate on making money for the company and pleasing our customers in the hope that they will return. In our quest for higher standards of onboard service we had never considered the threat of strike action as a path to excellence - Have we made a mistake?

[Rainboe]

It will be interesting to see the details! I wonder if they will be able to sort out the problem of CC working 1-2-1 when the pilots work 3-4-4-3! Or the CC always calling a halt to duty hours when the pilots can work another hour! Or the problem of CSDs earning over 2000 pounds additional payments (and the rest of the crew a bit less) for a week doing a longhaul back-to-back one crew down (out of 14), and taking Wimbledon off, and whether BA can continue paying CC more than pilots in low cost carriers! I await with fascination. So Dogs ears, there's a BA world, and a non-BA world. The standards of behaviour (and service) are totally different- I don't think it negates the non-BA way, only one of them is in the real world! I feel nothing has been solved.

[7Heroes]

One down - now just the GMB and the baggage handlers , they will probably time that for june/july and the usual chaos during the summer holidays will be resumed .

[Bar Plus]

not all are as you state, you know rainboe.
In my flying career I have never gone sick for wimbledon and in the one time in my 3 yr flying career that i have worked 1 crew member down not one of us recieved any where near the amount you quote. Please do not tar us all the same brush. suggest doing research into correct facts.

[olliew]

Where ever the blame lies and whoever is at fault I won't be risking my money with BA until the dust has well and truly settled.

[jethrobee]

I am pleased that the strike has been averted, however, as I said in my post the other day, I am not coming back. Been messed around one too many times.

[Oldjet Jockey]

And I as another SLF have flown with BA for the last time. My last flight to and from LGW was late, uncomfortable and very poor service, even before the current dispute. You only get loyal customers if you treat them well!!!

OJJ

[Final 3 Greens]

I agree with the pax in the posts before and won't be coming back either, unless there is no reasonable alternative on a route, too many disputes recently and too much disruption.

[boogie-nicey]

In fact, you only get loyal customers .... once!

But BA 'culture' just doesn't see that, I guess they never will. Too busy doing everyone a big favour by merely existing.
:ooh:

[Da Dog]

My info speedpig is that the reps have resigned their position within BASSA. Some people not happy with the deal apparently.

Many mutterings of Tony's comment, about this being the best deal available, and it not being improved by strike action, the icing on the cake is when he said the deal had been agreed. Lots of angry people within BASSA.

[Harry Wragg]

For all those who no longer wish to fly BA, then please go away. I'm sure all the other airlines are just fabulous. Who knows the empty seats may bring our brilliant management to its senses.

I have yet to see what a CC dispute with the company has to do with SLF or Pilots. Do please shut up.

Everyone has the right to withdraw their labour. Please also note that the current government was elected on a lower turnout that the BASSA vote. Do you think the people who voted for the government understood all the issues?

It is called "democracy", not perfect, but the best of a bad lot.

Harry

[Rainboe]

Harry, there isn't much use coming to a pilots forum and telling people to shut up! This lot can't be quiet about anything!
I have seen the deal. Minor pay rise, 4 increments for new entrants, and minor changes in Sickness Policy, and wishy washy intentions 'to be best friends in future'. The incredible damage to get an agreement like this is unbelievable. It's not the strike that inflicted the damage, it's the threat and preparation for it- the strike damage is already there, the payback should have followed. I think Willy should have taken it to the wire, and gone nuclear, and BASSA would be decimated, the old contracts terminated. There are still other departments that desperately need sorting out, and no example has been set. Don't look on this as a victory, not much has been achieved. But the damage to the company has been intense- it seems criminal.
*and Purser issue lost. Does any aeroplane really need 1 CSD and 3 Pursers? Willy wouldn't wash it either!

[M.Mouse]

Harry

Just because you are angry about the mess you and your ilk have created please refrain from telling once loyal customers to go away.

I would like them to return, I would like them to find the experience of flying BA excellent everytime and I would l;ike the company to remain in profitable business.

By comments such as yours you are displaying the very attitude which so many, inside and outside of the company, complain of.

[jethrobee]

For all those who no longer wish to fly BA, then please go away. I'm sure all the other airlines are just fabulous. Who knows the empty seats may bring our brilliant management to its senses.
I have yet to see what a CC dispute with the company has to do with SLF or Pilots. Do please shut up.
Everyone has the right to withdraw their labour. Please also note that the current government was elected on a lower turnout that the BASSA vote. Do you think the people who voted for the government understood all the issues?
It is called "democracy", not perfect, but the best of a bad lot.
Harry

You're right Harry, nothing to do with us whatsoever, we only pay the wages, suffer the disruption and come back for more!!

Enjoy your right to withdraw your labour, and I will enjoy my right to withdraw my patronage.

[Da Dog]

More info :

Upper deck purser going cash savings to be spent on 4 more pay scales for the post 97 people. (note no transition to pre 97 scales)

Pensionable pay to be increased with the £6 million gleaned from the proposed transition period.

A reasonable pay rise this year of 4.6% to be counter balanced by inflation next year.

Nothing on :

down route report times

250 CSD positions short haul

Breakfast at LGW

All in all without the real flesh it looks very cost neutral to me, I bet the company can't wait to get rid of some longer serving pursers

[Stuntman Steve]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear!

So what was all that nonsense about a 96% vote, how a strong united BASSA would prevail, how Willy was quaking in his boots? What have they achieved?

A pensionable pay rise exactly the same as the pilots got without having to ballot (and negotiated by the pilots, not BASSA).

Some increments to new contract pay, but NOT the merging of the payscales BASSA demanded.

A few 'zero cost' changes to EG300.

In return for those they have :

Lost the fourth purser on the 747.
Failed to guarantee 250 CSD positions on short haul
Failed to get their breakfast allowance for LGW (surprise surprise)
Failed to sort downroute report times.
Failed to achieve any other of those points.

I bet Willy is laughing all the way to the bank, and that joker Conroy will find it hard sitting down for a while with that broom rammed so far up him! You have to wonder if all thouse people BASSA claimed were switching to them from CC89 have wasted their money.

[Final 3 Greens]

M.Mouse

I am sure that you are a total professional and that my life is safe in your hands.

Its a shame that some of your colleagues are such a shower and undo your good work.

[Rainboe]

I lost count! How many Pursers on a 747? Not 4? Is there anyone left to do the work?

[Re-Heat]

For all those who no longer wish to fly BA, then please go away. I'm sure all the other airlines are just fabulous.
What a foolish comment.

[Dave Gittins]

Oh dear ... Oh dear .. Harry Wragg, just like previous poster Trolleylad teling us pax that the airline doesn't need us - unless we Kow Tow to his opinions and accept whatever dreadful service the CC deign to offer at their own convenience .... and that somehow BA will continue to operate without our custom. You really must tell Willy .. he'll be delighted to know he can get guaranteed load factors without all the expensive adverts.

Such bravado .. within hours of being saved from a world without work.

Well I am still booked to go to Denver in Feb but be damned certain that when I go again in July I shall move everything I possibly can to locfate an alternative to BA ... after all ...... isn't July the month for the ground staff to come out ????

:D or is it :ugh: ?????

[anotherthing]

Harry,


you are Sir, a c:mad: ck of the highest order. There are few if any in this thread who question the innate right of the worker to start industrial action to secure a fair and proper pay and Ts and Cs structure.

There are a lot within this thread who are questioning the appropriateness of industrial action for the issues that were outlined by BASSA. A lot of it was ignorance (in the true sense of the word). I for one was ignorant of the issues, this forum is a means to understanding these issues better.

it has become increasingly apparent that this action was BASSA trying to strongarm BA for its own nefarious purposes - and to do this they, BASSA, hoodwinked their membership into voting for what would have been a disastrous strike.

There has been a lot of damage done to BA over the past year, this has just added to it. Customers are looking elsewhere and a lot of them are finding that the grass is in fact greener in pastures new. BA will now have to up the ante in it's customer service provision in all departments to convince a lot of customers to come back.

The threat of strike action has turned passengers away.... passengers who would otherwise have continued to accept a no better than average service because of the name BA - it actually does still count for a lot.

So the next time you come out with statements like your one above, rememebr that you are not as big as the name BA. Your customers are king - you are a service provider. Your customers - the SLF - are entitled to ask what is going on - they expect a good service from BA and frankly, are increasingly not getting it. Attitudes like yours are what will bring BA to it's knees because although in name it is still a premium company, in reality it is looking very ropey in its current guise.


So Harry, if you wish to vent anger at someone, try BASSA. Even if they had a genuine grievance, the way they have conducted this affair, and the lack of information coming from them to refute management statements, is what has made the general public - the people who keep CC etc in a job - very unhappy with BA as a whole.

The attitude that you have displayed in your post is a prime example of the 'up their own arse' behaviour that has been mentioned by a lot of posters here regarding the few crap, aloof CC who are going to spoil it for their hard working colleagues and everyone else.

[Right Way Up]

Harry,
I have to echo previous posters. I work for one of BAs competitors, and welcome any customers we may gain from this dispute. Your comments at best are naive and at worst well.......... Your customers deserve more respect than that.

[Rananim]

I have yet to see what a CC dispute with the company has to do with SLF or Pilots.

Actually it has quite a bit to do with pilots.We have seen similar problems stateside and the balance needs to be redressed.FA unions with disproportionate power can grind an airline into gridlock.Whilst a good lead FA is an invaluable team-member on a major and remuneration and conditions should reflect this,the pilots have watched meekly from the side lines for too long.You have the leverage;all you have to do is use it.
Pseudo CRM and social decay has emasculated pilots for too long now and its about time they had the balls to take back their aircraft.

[Wolverhampton]

Harry
"I have yet to see what a CC dispute with the company has to do with SLF or Pilots"
:ugh:
SLF are present on this forum and are also the ones who fund BA, and isn't this after all a Pilots forum? Your post is an absolute waste of time.

[AndyPandy]

And here is what has been agreed:

FROM: Simon Talling-Smith, Head of Inflight Service

TO: All Cabin Crew

CC: Downroute Cabin Crew

T&G SETTLEMENT - KEY POINTS

Following the good news that the planned cabin crew strikes have been called off, I would like to share with you the key points of the settlement we have negotiated with the T&G.

As you will be aware, the key points relate to pay, absence, the number of pursers on Boeing 747-400 aircraft and strengthening of the airline's relationship with the T&G's cabin crew branch, BASSA.

The detail of the settlement in relation to these points is as follows:

Pay:

There will be a two-year pay deal for all cabin crew. This is worth inflation (4.4 per cent) plus 0.2 per cent in year one (from February 1, 2007) and inflation in year two (from February 1, 200.

In addition, four new non-pensionable increments will be added at the top of scale for new entrant cabin crew. The increments will lift basic non-pensionable salary (excluding allowances) at top-of-scale for cabin crew who joined the airline after 1997 to £18,600.

Absence:

There will be changes to the application of the absence management policy to recognise the genuine concerns of cabin crew. The company and the unions will work jointly to support the agreement on attendance management.

It will be normal practice for the following conditions to be discounted: colds and flu resulting in blocked ears, diarrhoea & vomiting, one-off life events (for example, surgery or broken limb) and down-route sickness. Good attendance will be taken into account and it will be normal practice to discount the first period of sickness in a 21-month period.

However, the line crew manager will endeavour to look at all the circumstances when making these decisions.

747 Pursers:

It was agreed to remove one purser onboard Boeing 747-400s and replace with a main cabin crew member from September 2007.

Relationship:

As I mentioned earlier, both parties recognise that a fresh start is needed to the relationship and work will begin on developing a constructive and professional relationship.

This work will be revised on a regular basis by chief executive Willie Walsh and Tony Woodley, the general secretary of the T&G.

While these are the key points of the negotiated settlement, you will be aware that there were a number of other issues raised by the T&G. I will provide more details on these in due course.

Simon Talling-Smith,
Head of Inflight Service

[k3lvc]

As a frequent, mainly Euro but some long-haul, SLF I have often fought tooth and nail to retain my right to choose BA when my company (one of the largest multinationals that dwarfs BA) has suggested/insisted that the loco or other full-service is preferable.

I've now wasted 20% of my annual travel budget and have a disciplinary hanging over me for wasting this money. All this because of the egos of your wonderful union who, lets be honest, never really stood a chance against WW. With this in mind I too am withdrawing my patronage - the BA Silver card will gather dust and if I ever have to travel with you again I'll eye you suspiciously trying to work out whether you were one of the lemmings/ill-informed that caused the demise of the once great British Airways.

A sad lesson in how to recognise when you're well off and should just accept what you've got.

[Sabre-Rattler]

They haven't even got their RPI+0.2% pay rise back dated to the due date of October 1st 2006. It is only back to Feb 1st 2007, so they have self funded the pay points, taking it away from the lowest paid workers who have lost 5 months of pay rise.

This is a defeat of the highest order. A complete capitulation. BASSA are finished

[SNasty]

For all those who no longer wish to fly BA, then please go away.Harry


Remarkable...!!!

[Rainboe]

It's important to remember that this was Napoleon (the unions) sending the first regiment in to battle (to get decimated by Wellington's army) as a way of feeling out the enemy and making a position. The real battle will still come- getting all those ground unions in shape for Terminal 5. The TGWU must have known it was not going to get anywhere, but cynically whipped up the crew into this nonsense so they were willing to throw themselves against the enemy. This is not the end of it (but it is for BASSA).

[M.Mouse]

It's important to remember that this was Napoleon (the unions) sending the first regiment in to battle (to get decimated by Wellington's army) as a way of feeling out the enemy and making a position.

Are you not confusing the TGWU/BASSA leadership with people of intelligence?

[rubberjungle]

That pay deal is terrible, BA have always back dated them to the October due date, not back dating it results in a deal of approx RPI - 1% or so, they just negotiated themselves a real terms pay CUT. BASSA are finished.

[lexxity]

I have stayed out of commenting on this thread so far, but felt I had to comment on Harry Wragg.

That attitude is why so many would dearly love to see BA brought to it's knees. Your attitude is all too prevelant in BA and it does not endere you to any of your fellow airline collegues around the network. BA were once the flag carrier and a symbol to be proud of, now they are an utter shambles who p' off pax and staff alike. On behalf of my airline we would like to thank you for all the pax who will have rerouted to us and will continue to do so.

It is time you entered the real world and realised that your world revolves around your pax. I totally respect the right to withdraw labour, but to say that pax have nothing to do with your decisions is totally wrong, you withdraw labour and you risk alienating your pax base. This is what this latest strike threat has done, and will continue to do so when the next round of strike talk starts. You should be fighting to get your pax back not telling them to go away.

[bermudatriangle]

Delighted to hear that the potentially disastrous BA cabin crew strike has been called off.To allow it to come this far is a damning reflection on the leadership of Willie Walsh.The loss of revenue with passengers changing to other airlines and the obvious reduction in advance bookings must have cost BA millions once again,all apparently to bolster the ego of this CEO.For a man who doesn't do deals,to at the 11th hour cave in to the unions demands,has destroyed his tough guy image.When will the board realise the huge mistake they made in putting this man in charge.The airline is deserving of so much better.

[nurjio]

you bin flying through that triangle again, haven't you mate?....

....not now pal, or ever.:}

nurj

[Stuntman Steve]

Man what planet are you on?

[Sporran]

Initial figures look as if the deal was 'cost neutral'! :D

With a bunch of the more vociferous BASSA reps resigning - looks like:
WW 1 BASSA 0:ooh:

[Wyler]

Chump.

Are you calling in sick tomorrow?

[TopBunk]

message from the Branch Secretary

Please read this very carefully and trust what I say.

Today the 9 people Branch Committee had to take a very tough decision. BA
had tabled their final offer and asked that the strike be called off. This
offer, they said, would be withdrawn forever if the committee turned it
down. 9 people then had to decide if this was a bluff. It was not an easy
call to say the least. A majority decided to accept the offer. Democracy
therefore decided that the strike would be called off. The majority that
decided to accept the vote did it with integrity. They did it because they
genuinely believed it was in the best interests of you the membership. Their
decision should be respected without reproach. They have fought hard for you
and have achieved what they think is the very best. I cannot now accept or
tolerate the abuse that is being handed out towards them on the forum, and
in particular Mike Conroy, the Chairman. I have worked with Mike for 10
years now and he has fought with all his might to protect you the
membership. His position has put him in the forefront and he is now being
villified publicly for having the courage of his convictions. You might not
agree but you simply must not abuse him or his family. Mike is a very decent
honest man who simply is doing what he thinks is right. How do you think his
wife and daughters are feeling reading such abuse? Please now is the time
for calm. Everyone take a deep breath.
Whatever you think of what has been accepted let me tell you that BA have
learned a lesson and I do not say that in a gloating manner. I truly believe
Willie Walsh now realises that he presides over a massive industrial
relations problem and I also believe he will address that situation. You
have spoken and they have listened. A deal was done. Some think the deal is
acceptable, others thought it could be bettered but that is now history. The
cold facts say however that BA were dragged to the negotiation table and
important concessions were given.

It is more important than ever that we unite behind what has happened and
congratulate ourselves on achieving the most marvellous ballot result in
history. Have no doubt BA will have taken heed, they are not that stupid,
they know things will have to change if they are ever to again win the
respect of their cabin crew. Whichever way you look at the "deal" that has
emerged you really should all be very proud. Let's all now pull together in
one direction, tomorrow is another day and BASSA needs you the membership to
be behind it and not fragmenting amongst a torrent of personal abuse. We
have enough enemies out there without fighting each other.

A sincere and heartfelt thank you to you all.

Regards
Duncan Holley

WW backs down ..... methinks not.

[Stuntman Steve]

While everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about Harrys comments I'd invite you all to look at some of his past posts. He is a wind-up merchant/ troll extraordinaire. 99% of his posts are sticking in the boot in to BA, he's merely doing the same now with his elaborate double bluff. Don't feed the troll and don't entertain his rants.

[bermudatriangle]

Duncan Holleys statement that BA were "dragged" to the negotiating table says it all.Despite all the bullying tacticts,sense eventually prevailed and a deal was agreed.Hence the conclusion that Willie Walsh backed down.

[Stuntman Steve]

Yeah, I'll trust a team that repeatedly lied to their members, not only about the consequences of strike action but also about the reasons the strike was necessary ("stitched up by the pilots again", "hourly pay on its way"). Now they ask for respect and to not be criticised for their actions. And just to be on the safe side they've shut down their crew forum so that they cannot be criticised. Any one here the sounds of the BASSA leadership desperately trying to save their own skins?

[dontdoit]

BASSA - Official laughing stock of London Heathrow Airport. I make the score more like: BA 12, BASSA NIL. Stand by for imminent implosion of the "union" who are big on talk, small on action.

[nurjio]

....now, that's desperation at it's finest. :}

nurj

[Stuntman Steve]

Duncan Holleys statement that BA were "dragged" to the negotiating table says it all.Despite all the bullying tacticts,sense eventually prevailed and a deal was agreed.Hence the conclusion that Willie Walsh backed down.

Dream on man! It was BASSA who were dragged to the negotiating table. They thought they could level their demands and they would simply be met. I have no love for WW but he read them their runes and they were not good. A final offer, no more negotiation. The pension deal they already had. The EG300 review they already had. A pay rise out of money they already had.

Accept it for what it is. An unmitigated disaster for BASSA.

[bermudatriangle]

Seems to me like a bunch of smug pilots dismayed that their hard working colleagues down the back haven't been shafted to finance their own generous pay/pension deal.The sooner you all realise that this business is a team effort,the better.Believe me,if the company could screw you they would,or maybe,one day will !!

[Stuntman Steve]

Seems to me like a bunch of smug pilots dismayed that their hard working colleagues down the back haven't been shafted to finance their own generous pay/pension deal.

I think you will find that it was the BA pilots negotiating team who not only identified £6M of funds but forced BA to hand them over to finance the pension deal the cabin crew have got. How about some thanks for those smug pilots who have got the cabin crew a deal their union couldn't, especially as a certain Mr Conroy publically derided one of the men who had done most to help the cabin crews cause? Its about time the cabin crew realised that BA is a team effort instead of having hissy fits and reporting anyone who disagrees with them to BASSA for bullying.

Then again, judging by the usual BASSA logic no doubt they'll shift the blame. They are already accusing the 1000 who went sick of undermining their stance. What about the other 7132 who voted yes Mikey?

[old,not bold]

For all those who no longer wish to fly BA, then please go away. I'm sure all the other airlines are just fabulous. Who knows the empty seats may bring our brilliant management to its senses. Harry

Avoiding the temptation to use a very rude word, Harry, empty seats mean financial collapse and no jobs for you and thousands of others, NOT "bringing the management to its senses". What vintage 1970's union notions you do have.

BA strikes are no longer underwritten by the taxpayers, in case you hadn't noticed.

I would agree, though, that a deeper problem than mindless cabin and ground staff, and the dinosaur unions pulling their strings, is the dreadful BA senior and middle back-office management who allowed things to get like this. Most (90%?) of the time-serving incompetents could be fired tomorrow with no perceptible loss in terms of BA's service standards, safety or productivity, and with a huge gain in profitability. Start at the very, very top, WW, and work down.

BA's Directors and Managers should be frog-marched round the White House at Dublin Airport, from which a better - profitable - airline is better run, to get some ideas about which of them should go. They might do this instead of the next bonding and blue sky thinking country house weekend.

The White House trip could be quite scary for the likes of the Deputy Group Manager, Cabin Floor Cleaning Services Personnel Allocation Team (Scottish Region), to see that a relatively tiny number of people can run a large airline efficiently.

I apologise to the holder if there is such a job title; I made it up, but you never know. If there is, please substitute Director, Engineering Information External Intelligence Office, or Policy Review Advice Team Manager.

I can invent non-jobs all day, because I once learned this skill as an air transport consultant.

[Viewfrom5Bells]

Expect another 0.5% on mortgage rates. If the BofE were undecided about what the next interest rate will be this pay deal will help them make their minds up :eek: . Money in one end and out the other

[Sabre-Rattler]

Some reps have resigned. They have closed their forum for "maintenance".

Oh dear oh dear.

Thanks BASSA, your ill timed and stupid ballot has gained nothing and now, no doubt, made WW think he is invincible

[rubberjungle]

The rise is not inflation busting, it is RPI + 0.2% paid 3 months late and not back dated, it equates to a less than RPI rise over the first 12 months then RPI for the next 12.I don't think BASSA have got any new monies out of BA despite the huge ballot in favour of IA, they have lost the 4th purser the 18.5% increase in pensioable pay mirrors what the flight deck got without resorting to IA, they have lost BIG time.

[nurjio]

bermudatriangle - that's a Barry manilow number, isn't it? - might i suggest you self-moderate until you get a grip on reality? that way you will avoid the derisory comments you so richly deserve at the mo. :}

nurj

[Stuntman Steve]

I know BASSA News reads like a tabloid, but I am reminded of the Guardians headline the day Jonathan Aitkin was convicted of perjury. Perhaps in the final assessment of their reps the headline will read "They lied and lied and lied"?

[Da Dog]

Not sure what planet Bermuda triangle is on????

I wonder if he grasps the minute of what has happened today!

The real BASSA hardcore realise they have been done over like a kipper full stop!!

WW and the BA management team all laughing all the way to the bank.

In true form for BASSA they have closed down their very own website because of the revolt going on, censorship at the very highest level!

Face facts the Cabin crew have been manipulated and lied to throughout this farce, the only losers today are BASSA members, everyone knows that.

[Da Dog]

PS ignore Harry Wragg he brings nothing to the debate which is after all BA Cabin Crew going on strike and showing WW who really runs BA.......................... yeah right:ugh: :ugh:

[Da Dog]

Sent to me from the Trotskyits, I particularly like the bit about the wife and kids, absolutely priceless........ and true to BASSA's soviet style propaganda.


A message from the Branch Secretary
Please read this very carefully and trust what I say.
Today the 9 people Branch Committee had to take a very tough decision. BA had tabled their final offer and asked that the strike be called off. This offer, they said, would be withdrawn forever if the committee turned it down. 9 people then had to decide if this was a bluff. It was not an easy call to say the least. A majority decided to accept the offer. Democracy therefore decided that the strike would be called off. The majority that decided to accept the vote did it with integrity. They did it because they genuinely believed it was in the best interests of you the membership. Their decision should be respected without reproach. They have fought hard for you and have achieved what they think is the very best. I cannot now accept or tolerate the abuse that is being handed out towards them on the forum, and in particular **********y, the Chairman. I have worked with **** for 10 years now and he has fought with all his might to protect you the membership.


His position has put him in the forefront and he is now being villified publicly for having the courage of his convictions. You might not agree but you simply must not abuse him or his family. **** is a very decent honest man who simply is doing what he thinks is right. How do you think his wife and daughters are feeling reading such abuse? Please now is the time for calm. Everyone take a deep breath. Whatever you think of what has been accepted let me tell you that BA have learned a lesson and I do not say that in a gloating manner. I truly believe Willie Walsh now realises that he presides over a massive industrial relations problem and I also believe he will address that situation. You have spoken and they have listened. A deal was done. Some think the deal is acceptable, others thought it could be bettered but that is now history. The cold facts say however that BA were dragged to the negotiation table and important concessions were given.
It is more important than ever that we unite behind what has happened and congratulate ourselves on achieving the most marvellous ballot result in history. Have no doubt BA will have taken heed, they are not that stupid, they know things will have to change if they are ever to again win the respect of their cabin crew. Whichever way you look at the "deal" that has emerged you really should all be very proud. Let's all now pull together in one direction, tomorrow is another day and BASSA needs you the membership to be behind it and not fragmenting amongst a torrent of personal abuse. We
have enough enemies out there without fighting each other.
A sincere and heartfelt thank you to you all.
Regards
******** *****

[bababa]

everyone remember PPRUNE stands for prof pilots rumour network.
nothing has been confirmed by bassa yet.
as this is a roumour network then believe what u will!!!!!!

[Litebulbs]

The pay rise is 0.9% above that of the October figure. This is definately the better way round!

[Rainboe]

But according to reports 4 months delayed..............

[Litebulbs]

Back pay is back pay, 0.9% better on earnings is for life.

[Sabre-Rattler]

bababa

Its not rumours, offiial announcements have been made,. BASSA haven't yet because even they will be having trouble in spinning a victory. They will, but it will take time.

[Stuntman Steve]

Perhaps it's time for **** *****y to spend more time with his family.

[yachtno1]

I just wonder if the 4.6% is pensionable ? ;)

[Stuntman Steve]

No it is not.

[Litebulbs]

Where does it say that it is not? The new increments are not, but it does not say that with regard to the basic pay rise.