BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat

[gone till november]

As reported today on BBC world BA cabin crew have voted in favour of strike in a dispute over pay conditions and of course pensions.
The vote today in a hotel on the outskirts of LHR attended by CC from not just the UK but also form world wide stations was pretty final with a vote of 96% in favour of strike.
Some of the reasons for such a large yes was due to seemingly draconain rules on sickness with the union saying that 10 days off a year can lead to tea and biscuits with a threat of dismissal.
The CC union are also also saying that CC are being asked to work more hours and that many senior positions on board are being reduced.
BA are hoping that further discussions can avoid this strike.

[Count von Altibar]

This could end-up in one hell of a showdown as Willie Walsh can tend to play hardball in these situations. An interesting one to watch!

[Mooney12]

Absolutely....Those who do strike can kiss goodbye to staff travel amongst other things I imagine

[overstress]

Those who do strike can kiss goodbye to staff travel

Mooney - I think that they may have to kiss goodbye to more than that!

I wish the cc luck in their dispute but i don't hold out any hope for their chances :ooh:

[apaddyinuk]

Oh ye of little faith!!!

I think an 80% return of ballot papers with a 96.1% YES vote for strike sends out very VERY strong messages!!!! Only 330 voted no!

I dont doubt that there will be a little give and take (I was with Aer Fungus when Willie was doing the same there so this is round two for me) but dont cast us aside just yet!!!

WILLIE OUT, WILLIE OUT, WILLIE OUT...!

[atyourcervix73]

Its rather hard for an airline to operate without any cabin crew, and don't forget what the last dispute cost BA in 1997:=
Willie may be able to play hardball, he wont however have much of an airline left to play with if 96% of the CC decide to remove their labour for any length of time:ooh:

[Pistonprop]

I'm a fare paying BA passenger and BA cc have my full support. In their quest to cut costs and increase profits, what these modern day moronic CEOs like WW don't grasp anymore is that staff such as cc are the front line. It is they that ultimately contribute to increased and repeat custom. Personally I would regard my cc as my entire PR department and do whatever I could to MOTIVATE them!

[tristar500]

This is just the beginning for Willie

The GMB are about to ballot their ground staff members on industrial action over 'lies' and utter contempt of the leaking to the press that the pension crisis was all but over... No one ever accepted any offer from BA! Mind you the share price climbed on the 'pension breakthrough' news!!! Wonder if someone somewhere made a quick buck or two? This along with the loss of almost 1000 jobs in the regions (yet to be confirmed but fully expected by regional staff) makes interesting times from the 'cheeky chap from the emerald isle'

BA are fast becomming a joke. Not that funny either. Wonder how true the rumour is that McQuarry Bank in Oz is looking at bidding for the company...

Fasten your seat belts - its going to be a rough ride...:ok:

[manintheback]

As a humble pax may I ask what the timeframe is for CC to take action?

[apaddyinuk]

Hi Maninblack.

I was at the meeting today. Basically it all depends on the meeting between management and BASSA tomorrow. If talks fail I think they will announce strike dates then. But basically if talks do fail (and I really hope they dont) it will be a series of 3 day strikes seven days from today for a period of 30 days...as is my understanding!

But all will be clear tomorrow so keep your eye on the news!

[M.Mouse]

BA employ approx. 13,000 CC. Approx. 4,900 either are not in BASSA (Cabin Crew 89) or didn't vote to strike.

The 1997 'strike' was more a sick out because few had the courage of their convictions and wouldn't actually strike when push came to shove.
The new entrant pay scales were introduced during the settlement of that dispute. This is one of the grievances BASSA used in the current ballot........they want the new entrant capped pay scales brought up to the levels of pre-1997 crew.

[Thumperdown]

Its rather hard for an airline to operate without any cabin crew, and don't forget what the last dispute cost BA in 1997:=
Willie may be able to play hardball, he wont however have much of an airline left to play with if 96% of the CC decide to remove their labour for any length of time:ooh:

And you won't have much of a job :D

[Say Mach Number]

In years gone by on taking up employment with an airline(or any organisation for that matter) one could make an assumption that you were regarded as an asset of the company.

However in the world of aviation I have come to the conclusion I am not regarded as an asset but as a COST. And for most airlines these days, and by the look of it BA included, that COST is to be driven down.

And no prizes for guessing for where that approach came from. The company I have loyally worked for for nearly a decade with another paddy at the helm.......

You know who I mean.........

[atyourcervix73]

And you won't have much of a job :D

Perhaps thumper, you've missed a key point here, a VAST swathe of BA CC are prepared to stake their current livelyhoods on improving the current situation. To strike means by definition, you have to be prepared for the worst.
Thanks for pointing out the blindingly obvious thumper, any other gems of insight you wish to offer? :hmm:

[GS-Alpha]

Pistonprop, I am in total agreement with you.

I wish the cabin crew well in their battle. Some of their issues are of genuine concern. BA management know nothing other than cost cutting, risk analysis, and bully tactics. They do not understand the concept of people management. Unfortunately, despite the resounding yes vote, I do not think BA will negotiate sufficiently to mitigate the strikes. They will still think they can bully the crew into returning to work.

Worrying times ahead for all.

[spoilers yellow]

it would seem that the 22nd will be the first day of the proposed strike.
There is a chance that with 4000+ non bassa members/lgw/cc89 crew not to mention an awful lot of SEP trained managers that at least the high yeild services may stay operate.

[Bearcat]

. The company I have loyally worked for for nearly a decade with another paddy at the helm.......
You know who I mean.........

ehh Mach no...what should "paddies" being doing then? shovling sh@te or filling in pot holes. It doesnt matter where willie or even Leo are from....bottom line is will WW close BA like he did with the pilots in Aer Lingus (fungus to you)?....not so sure he'll have the share holders backing on this one.

[zed3]

So.....the 22nd then , phew , I fly DUS-MAN tomorrow and back on 21st but nevertheless my thoughts and sympathies are with you all . We are going through the same stupid "management" thought process in ATC . I have 37 years in the job with 2 years to go and can honestly say today's management is scandalously abominable . Money is all , people and safety are nothing , despite the propaganda pumped out . Example , colleague left on pension this month and was given after 35 years service , a cut glass cigarette box (obviously a - no longer acceptable , left over , PR gift which they had to get rid of)- he doesn't smoke !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Piss artists . Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
But how does one fight back ?

[Magplug]

Pistonprop....
I'm a fare paying BA passenger and BA cc have my full support. In their quest to cut costs and increase profits, what these modern day moronic CEOs like WW don't grasp anymore is that staff such as cc are the front line. It is they that ultimately contribute to increased and repeat custom. Personally I would regard my cc as my entire PR department and do whatever I could to MOTIVATE them!
So do you want low fares that compete with other operators or do you want cabin crew paid at a rate around 1.6x the industry rate.....?
Perhaps we should put it to a consumer vote?
Oh.... and with the current sickness policy in the company I think we can look forward to the instant dismissal of anyone that reports sick on a notified day of industrial action.

[keep em flying]

As a BACON engineer being ditched by WWW (make your own mind up what the 3rd W stands for) i hope that the CC's bring him to his knees, it's long overdue, just wish the engineers had some "town halls" and would do the same. BYE BYE BA!!!

[rhythm method]

zed3, your flight will be unaffected by the CC strike as it is a BAConnect route.

I really hope the Cabin Crew manage to bring the leprechaun to his knees... at least it will be some retribution for the shafting he has given everyone in the regions. I hope he ends up regretting the decision to flog us (sorry.. correction... give us away) to flybe, and lay off all the groundstaff.

Even MOL looks more honourable now! :ooh:

[Rhiannon]

These days Cabin Crew are not just your PR, they are also your first line of defense... and maybe the only line. Flight crew aren't coming out of the FD anymore........ Having to deal one on one with crazy pax isn't a job I'd relish, and a role that gets overlooked too often.

[tristar500]

Keep em flying

Sorry to hear youre out of a job as well...

Iam BA mainline ground staff - regional - and looking at being made redundant soon... I fully stand by the cabin crew brave enough to challenge our 'illustrious leader' and his band of merry men. When we are gone - we are well and truly gone! Nothing left. Its all fine and well cutting costs (Cabin crew terms and conditions etc) but without them, or us there is no BA.

T5 is all we hear about - its all a load of Sh**e :oh: heres a warning: Dont put all your eggs in the one basket my friend!

Each section of the company is being picked off, one by one and stripped to the bone. Leaner, fitter maybe but a shadow of its former glorious self which BA was in the early days. BA had one of the smartest images around exuding class, status and pride.

WWW will need all the lucky charms he can get to get his little green as* out of this mess
:ugh: :D :ok:

[M.Mouse]

Flight crew aren't coming out of the FD anymore........ Having to deal one on one with crazy pax isn't a job I'd relish, and a role that gets overlooked too often

And never did in BA, it was expressly discouraged.

The showdown is coming, antiquated agreements and behaviour or become fit for the changed world.

My money is on WW on this one.

The spectacle of CC shown on the news cheering the results of the ballot give an indication of the mentality.

BA had one of the smartest images around exuding class, status and pride.

And massive losses but let's not let sentimentality and nostalgia get in the way of commercial reality.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I have every sympathy with the CC who want to do and get paid for a quality job. However, the economic direction of the short haul airline business is surely one of driving out cost, even if quality of service suffers as a result. The succes of the LoCos means the more traditional airlines have to move towards that end of the market.

For staff who pride themselves on doing a first rate professional job, it must be demoralising to be pushed downmarket by a management that is being driven by those market trends. But hey, unless businesses and individuals are prepared to pay a hefty margin above LoCo prices for their short haul travel, then such changes are inevitable.

SSD

[rhythm method]

M.Mouse, if it was BALPA recommending strike action over pensions, and the vote was returned with such an overwhelming majority, I'll guarantee the pilots at the announcement would be cheering too.

Let's not forget so quickly the uproar about pilot's pensions, and most were willing to take the company down rather than accept a shafting.

One rule for one set of workers, and another for the pilots? :rolleyes:

[411A]

What a superb opportunity a CC 'strike' would provide to BA.
Sack 'em all on strike (with the proper 'legal' notice, of course:E ) then replance 'em with fresh faces, at a considerable payroll saving...and the cash saved could be added to the pilots pensions to top these up, to keep 'em happy.
Face it folks, these malcontent CC can be replaced with minimal effort. Of course there would be slight disruptions to services, but this time of year, when the peak travel period is passed, would be the perfect time, from the companies perspective.
'Ole Bud Maytag at National did this for so many years I've lost count (with both pilots and especially CC) and they never caught on to what was happening.
A managements dream.:}

[tristar500]

M.Mouse

Do you really think the 'City' and the 'Financial' sector especially in London, are applauding WW and on his side?

With the 'threat' of strike action (not confirmed) looming, bookings are down, the press are having a field-day, and massive staff redundancies just around the corner - its not the greatest start to the year for him is it?

Anyway, hes just carrying out orders from above... A bit like Mr Blair and Mr Bush... :ok:

PS - YES BA did have a smart image. Image says a lot for the travelling public who decide where to put their money! Its up to the management to use the money to make it work - or not :mad:

[Jal]

Good luck to all CC, pilots etc at BA if you do strike, I'm so glad I got out some 3 years ago from BA.

[atyourcervix73]

What a superb opportunity a CC 'strike' would provide to BA.
Sack 'em all on strike (with the proper 'legal' notice, of course ) then replance 'em with fresh faces, at a considerable payroll saving...and the cash saved could be added to the pilots pensions to top these up, to keep 'em happy.

:p Your an old muppet 411A...funny though!

Face it folks, these malcontent CC can be replaced with minimal effort.

Somehow I think BA's training dept would struggle to recruit, train, and bring online 7 or 8 thousand CC with anything like a minimal effort:rolleyes: but hey! on your planet 411A the tristar was top dog:ok:

[M.Mouse]

The pension issue was resolved without even balloting.

Protecting excessive supervisory staff on a jumbo, refusing to come into LHR with a 1:45 break before operating out again, refusing to allow use of Captain's discretion and getting off when industrial limits are reached costing thousands, etc, etc, etc, I would suggest is completely different.

How about the Denver service that was ordered by In Flight Services to divert into DTW after a late LHR departure due 'Cabin Crew' Industrial hours?

The majority of good crew are being led to disaster by people who should know better.

[palmtree]

This is all just so sad...... I am both a Pilot and passenger. I have never flown Virgin I allways fly BA. I love BA as a passenger. I think the managemnt are worthless on the whole. Some good ones but not many that I have met are.

However in passenger mode I say this...to all you cabin crew that want to strike and read this please dont take us as passengers as complete idiots. I fly BA to the US many times a year. BA are the best in any class but I am getting really tired of the same old routine (and I am not alone - we all know whats happening on board) .

Its this: After T/O get the food down the self loading freights throats ASAP.(what a terrible thing to think let alone say about the people who pay your wages - and many of you do think that because I have heard you say it) Start clearing up before in many cases they have finished to keep the pressure on them to finish Clear up.

Mass rush to back of aircraft by most of the cabin crew after meal service to chill out in crew rest area. Halfway through flight the 4 or 5 cabin crew left on duty get replaced by 4 or 5 from the rest area. Mass thanking of those replacing those going to rest area in view and earshot of as many pax as possible so pax understand how tiring and hard the job is and how greatful we should all be to even be in the presence of these gods. Relieved crew rush to back and into rest area taking pillows blankets books and anything else they can carry (as did first lot). Put little things out in galley area for pax who may want some water etc. let the pax self serve. etc etc .

Stuff food and minatures into bags before bar closes for landing to make sure the well earned rest at the destination at least has some pleasure for all the effort put in by the CC on the Long Long Long Long Long flight..

It happens EVERY time.

When I fly on business I am en route to work. The flight IS the cabin crews work. Can I or others like me who also work 9-12 hour days dissapear for a rest for 4-8 hours during my work day when I get to my destination? No way.

This isnt a rant about Cabin Crew. Many of them are really great helpful and kind. I blame the BA management and yes I think that for the newer CC the pay is really bad. But please dont tell us that you are overworked. Underpaid the younger/newer one are maybe but you dont have to do the job.

And what is going to happen? You strike. The company is weakened. It becomes an even more interesting take over target and we all know the UK government will allow anything in our country to be sold (because of course they get billions in tax on the profits the sharegolders make on each sale) - the only thing that will stop them is when there is nothing else left to sell!

New owners come in. get in even lower paid CC from we all know where . Company goes bust. slotes etc sold. all the fat cats make loadsamoney. You lose! OK so the close down comment I made is a bit stuped but why dont you strike over the usless management you have. Tell Willy you will walk out if he dosnt prune them all back and give you 50% of the savings. Now thats something I think Willy would do.

Maybe this post is insane. If I worked for BA as CC I would strike too. But think of the downside. Better to change it from within. You can do that if you do it right. None of you are perfect - nor am I.:ugh:

[keep em flying]

Tristar i'm actually not out of a job, i'm just pushed downwards and sideways to FlyMayBe, the thing is i don't wanna go on c**p T's and C's so i am activley pursueing other avenues!! I hope for the guys that stay at both FlyMayBe and Bye Bye BA that it works out but i doubt it, when i was at BRAL it was a joy to go to work until Big Bad Bro took over!!!

[M.Mouse]

Do you really think the 'City' and the 'Financial' sector especially in London, are applauding WW and on his side?

The short term cost will be paid over many times by the long term gains. So the answer is yes.

The people on the inside know just how ludicrous so much of the way the operation staggers on is due to outmoded agreements and untenable working practises. The writing is on the wall this time.

I know I will not be immune either but I will take some pain if it finally makes the airline as fit and functional as it should be.

I also agree that we have an appalling quality of middle management.

[Helen49]

BA cabin crew have had it pretty good for years and appear to have failed to note that the industry has changed. Like it or not, costs have to be cut to meet the demands of the ever increasing low fare passenger market. Airport staff, travel agents and many charter airline employees have been feeling the chill wind for a number of years........redundancies, reduced T&C, pension cuts, longer hours etc etc. Is there any sound reason why BA should escape the cuts and changes?
Remember the car industry, coal industry, shipbuilding, steel industry etc......they all did a lot of striking! Be very careful!
H49

[3Greens]

What i find interesting is when CC claim that they can't be sacked for 12 weeks for striking. Close but not quite true...you actually only have a case for UNFAIR dismissal which ,if upheld, may or may not reimburse you for past/future losses. Bit of a gamble though!
I reckon WW will take them on if the talks break down tommorow. It'll be interesting to see who blinks first.

[bababa]

ba want to save £42 million from crew wages.
ba want to give senior management £70 million bonus
wonder where the cash is coming from??
its a bit like robin hood in reverse

[atyourcervix73]

The short term cost will be paid over many times by the long term gains. So the answer is yes.

Can't say I agree M Mouse, show me an investment house that invests into an industrially challenged company in the short-term for long-term gain, and I'll show you a hundred who won't:ooh:

My money is on the city not wanting to touch BA with a 10 foot pole until the industrial factor is resolved, or at the very least, reducing their exposure.

Helen49 Ill wind or not, BA made close to a 9% profit last reported quarter, and that was on the back or record fuel prices, the aftermath of the august security scare, and have regained their position as the leading Euro shorthaul carrier in the UK, it seems that in this case BA staff (CC) are well deserving of their employee benefits.

What i find interesting is when CC claim that they can't be sacked for 12 weeks for striking. Close but not quite true...you actually only have a case for UNFAIR dismissal which ,if upheld, may or may not reimburse you for past/future losses. Bit of a gamble though!
I reckon WW will take them on if the talks break down tommorow. It'll be interesting to see who blinks first

Trouble is, multiply that by 8000 or so, and you can clearly see that the company would quickly become overwhelmed in a legal quagmire, put simply BA would lose each and every case on the basis of a strike carried out in a legal fashion. Only an act of parliament would help them.

[tristar500]

Helen49

You are right - generally speaking but;

BA will never - and - can never match the low-cost airlines and the terms and conditions they offer their staff. Its an impossability, although GO did spark a glimmer of hope - however short lived it was. BA can 'restructure' its business model though through changes in attitudes and working practices - FROM THE TOP - DOWN!

Industrial action may not be the best way to get noticed. Nothing else seemed to have worked. There were meeting, forums and numerous talks aimed at getting a solution. None of them worked and why? The attitude of management, especially WW. Management are not having terms and conditions cut. They are merrily 'River Dancing' around Waterside, doing not a lot :zzz: (from my experience of spending numerous occassions there).

Lets cut the cra*, get down to basics here. Too many 'egg-heads' suggesting things that clearly dont make any sense - as is proving now. Make changes where changes are needed. Do it in full consultation with staff, dont 'enforce' heavy handed tactics. Bean counters should get out more, and see the big picture. Take a secondment into the airline-proper and then come back and re-evaluate your schemes... Oh and listen to the staff on the front lines... We are the ones who day in and day out, promote, sell and deliver the BA WAY :D

BA management - please dont claim to be shocked at the result. YOU have brought this on yourself, and fine well you know it. The company is being run-down and soon there will be nothing left. T5 is like the new Pandoras Box. It will open up many more problems than it will resolve :uhoh:

[tristar500]

bababa

I can tell you where a fair amount of the money is comming from...

...By making the 'Regional Mainline BA Staff' redundant.

Getting in handling agents will save money, but the loss of experienced, loyal and enthusiastic staff will haunt WW for a long time to come - to be sure :p

[747-436]

I support the BA Cabin crew with some aspects of their gripe like being screwed over by management but they have to give in on some things like the stupid rules they have like ‘Industrial Hours’!!! They should go to along the lines of CAP371 like everyone else, or the same hours as pilots if they have different, as the Cabin Crew can’t go anywhere without the pilots!!

Cabin crew are the face of BA and have a strong influence on whether a passenger will use BA again so they should be looked after by management, along with all other employees!

I hope for BA’s sake and everyone that works there that this is resolved without resorting to Industrial Action
I think some passengers are probably losing patience at the moment and other airlines such as Virgin and the European major airlines must be looking forward to the BA passengers.
If I was a business passenger I would avoid BA at all costs at the moment, even though I like flying with BA as most of the crews that have looked after me in flight have been fantastic!
There are just too many things that could go wrong, and cabin crew threatening to go on strike is another thing. This may not be felt too much at the time but in 6 months the high rolling passengers that make BA a lot of its money could have gone elsewhere, and that will hurt.

I do hope that something is done about some of the shockingly outdated working practices of some of the ground staff (i.e. Loaders and some other ramp staff) But that is another issue entirely!

[sevenforeseven]

BA is a wonderful airline, lets not get a bunch of overpaid cart pushers get BA down. There are lots of girls who will I am sure do your job with half your pay and conditions. Get into the real world, you have had it too good for too long.
Go on Wilie sort out whats good for the share holders, look after who matters and "take care" of the test.
GO WILLIE GO!!!!!!!:D

[rhythm method]

:rolleyes: ................

[Egg Mayo]

Just to say I think there maybe 'performance issues' within certain groups within BA Cabin Crew. I tend to agree with PalmTree. It seems to be custom and practice that on long haul routes, the food service is dished out asap so that the Cabin Crew can 'party' at the rear. Whether this is a 'response' to poor salaries, I don't know for sure. Certainly in my experience, where an employer pays low wages and expects alot, the employees tend to be less committed.
I'll be interested to see how the strike pans out. The problem is that the flight attendant job, in economic terms, is fairly low skilled. (I know I'm going to get berated for that). However, my perception of life in BA Cabin Crew is this. You work hard in short haul for a few years and eventually get long haul. The pay is relatively low compared to other employment sectors, e.g. a PA in a law firm, (please ignore gender stereotyping momentarily) but you get to see a bit of the world which you wouldn't otherwise see, (i.e. flying a desk at zero feet doing 9-5, putting up with machine coffee, etc), and have a laugh down leg with like minded individuals. In short, a trade off between pay and perks. Come a certain point, it becomes boring and you jack it in or stay to become a CSD.
To use a horrible phrase, the Cabin Crew want best of both worlds, the increased pay as well as the perks. Can't see it happening, there is a quid pro quo in today's commercial world. My perception is that BA offers more opportunity than most, e.g. a good route network for travel concessions etc. At a guess, Willie Walsh will play hard ball, sufficient cover will be arranged for the strike days from non BASSA staff, with doubling up on some routes. The strikers won't get paid for not working and realise it isn't so much fun afterall being a token Luddite and get back to work. :ooh:

[pips]

BA is a wonderful airline, lets not get a bunch of overpaid cart pushers get BA down. There are lots of girls who will I am sure do your job with half your pay and conditions. Get into the real world, you have had it too good for too long.
Go on Wilie sort out whats good for the share holders, look after who matters and "take care" of the test.
GO WILLIE GO!!!!!!!:D


WELL what a load C**P YOU HAVE JUST POSTED YOU NO NOTHING OF OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS .WHO DO YOU THINK MADE BA THIS WONDERFUL AIRLINE, MR WALSH HIMSELF I DONT THINK SO.

[rhythm method]

pips, I wouldn't take the bait. Delete your post and let the plonker be ignored.

[frangatang]

when are the long haul cabin crew going to visit planet earth.the highest paid platelayers on this planet...who shoot off to bed within 2 hrs of being airborne and that includes going to cairo! they are on overtime on 90% of flights as the plane is late.The service is just passable,try club class.the sickness interviews were brought in because cabin crew had the highest sickness rate(spot them at henley/wimbledon/nice weather at weekends in the summer). the upper deck purser on over £50000 are not required with only 18 passengers. and so the list goes on..and the fu222rs will certainly not be getting a rest seat for their hangers on on my flights.Dump the lot and bring on thevirginsrgins .one thing is for sure,if Ba goes tits up,their cabin crew will be unemployable anywhere else,they are too old,too fat and too bloody minded

[keep em flying]

Maybe sevenforeseven sits in his ivory tower at Waterside, he obviously doesn't have a clue what goes on at the sharp end! Cabin crew, Engineers, Pilots and ground handlers have been shafted since the day WWW walked in, i'm leaving one way or another, either to FlyMayBe or to another job of my choice, i for one cannot wait to see BA fold, they deserve it big style, Messers Branson, O'Leary, French and Orange must be rubbing their hand with glee. Bye bye BA, Bye bye WWW!!!!

[El Grifo]

How many of you guys supported the miners :(

[Glamgirl]

I just wish some over paid crew would take a few minutes out to see how good they've got it. Seriously, you have. Most other airlines do not have such a thing as crew rest. I've been on a flight where the crew have walked through the cabin in shirt, tie and pyjama bottoms!!!! How professional! I'm not based at the golden runways, but I'm allegedly working for the same company. At LGW we get told every day by pax how friendly and chatty etc we are. Lots of pax prefer flying from LGW because it's less hassle, fewer delays and we're professional. So, what's my rant about? Well, all the issues bassa has decided to ballot about, we already deal with at LGW. We work 3 crew on the 737. We have one CM and one Purser on the 777 whether it's 3 class or 4 class. We're on hourly pay (and survive!). The difference is that I and a majority of my colleagues at LGW are fed up with being sold down the river by our so-called colleagues at LHR for years but they expect us to stand up for them and strike. It winds me up. I'd be happy to vote for a strike if the issues actually affect me, but they don't (apart from the little breakfast allowance that was added at the end of the form as we were kicking off about it). I don't want to lose my job. I don't want to have to look for another job. I know I'm not the best paid in the company or indeed the world, but I'm a hell of a lot better paid than a lot of other people. I'm not starving to death and I can still afford a glass of wine when I want. It's called living within your means without being greedy. Sorry for the rant, had to get it out of my system...

[Thumperdown]

fangatang
I have to disagree - they are not all too fat! :)

[Carnage Matey!]

Sackings......
Trouble is, multiply that by 8000 or so, and you can clearly see that the company would quickly become overwhelmed in a legal quagmire, put simply BA would lose each and every case on the basis of a strike carried out in a legal fashion. Only an act of parliament would help them.

Can't get sacked for 12 weeks? Thats what BASSA would like you to believe and what their lawyers said at the meeting, but a little bird tells me they forgot to mention the possibility of unlawful dismissal. Now given that the maximum compensation for unlawful dismissal is around £61K, lets call it £50K to make the maths easier and reflect that many crew won't get anywhere near £50K. A strike costs BA around £20,000K every day. So, if on day 1 of the strike BA sacks 400 crew it'll cost them a maximum of £20,000K. If that shortens the strike by a day WWs broken even. If it shortens it by two days he's quids in. 8200ish voted to strike. Probably about 6000 might actually strike. 1 in every 15 strikers fired on day 1. How long do you think support for the strike will last?

[overstress]

CM. You are too generous with your estimates. If BA dismiss strikers illegally (unfair dismissal), and the employee takes them to a tribunal, awards are made in line with redundancy awards on the basis of 1 weeks pay per year of completed service.
The ET may also make an order for re-instatement, which is refused may then trigger a further compensatory award of up to £15K if the employer fails to act upon the order.
Thus, protections for a New Contract CC with 8 years service would be worth approx £2700 if he/she were dismissed. Perhaps £7000 if they subsequently refused to re-employ him/her.
So, BASSA members can look forward to the threat of being sacked (unfair dismissal), refusal to reinstate, and subsequent puny tribunal award.
Furthermore, there are also restrictions under the law that prevent the selective re-employment of dismissed employees preventing only some of those participating from being re-employed. But this does not prevent BA from selectively sacking some strikers, and refusing to reinstate all those sacked, thereby accepting a one-off 'hit' to get rid of them. :sad:

[Litebulbs]

Im sure that being dismissed for being a trade union member or being involved in their activities, would be treated as unfair and also have no upper limit for compensation.

[overstress]

Im sure that being dismissed for being a trade union member or being involved in their activities, would be treated as unfair and also have no upper limit for compensation.
Ignore and see above!
Litebulbs - if you are referring to my posting then you are wrong, I'm just trying to point out the reality of the law. Have a look here (http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file11516.pdf) if you don't believe me. :ooh:
Technically you are correct, but strikers will be sacked for breach of contract, not for being members of a union.

[tescoapp]

Unfortuantly I think quite alot of BA customers have been avoiding for a while now long/medium range bookings.

Personally I always prefer to keep my cash in Britain even if it costs a wee bit more and use a British carrier. But this year while booking some winter sun I had a choice of Emirates or BA. I really didn't want my holiday spoiled so I went Emirates despite it being more expensive. :(

The unfortunate thing is I really can't see BA managment being able to back down. They are in a catch 22, a strike will cost them big time. But not changing things will cost them even more. And once the strikes do start the drop in sales will be such that they will have to see it out to the end.

And I really don't think you will have the support of the British public either.

[Litebulbs]

Isn't that about the legality of calling a ballot and protections given to both employees, trade unions and employers, not about compensation for unfair dismissal?

[Rainboe]

I must admit I had trouble understanding the scenes of unbridled joy at the CC meeting when the cameras picked up the announcement of the pro-strike vote! I would say a very high proportion of them will 'chicken out' when it goes nuclear.

"Certainly in my experience, where an employer pays low wages and expects alot, the employees tend to be less committed." Disagree!
After a career in BA and now an independant, I have to say I am stunned at how hard working and dedicated they are in independantland. I have never seen BA crews work like I have seen amongst independants outside. Dare one say far more commitment too? The astonishing saga of 75 minutes bunk rest on a LHR-CAI followed by a 24 hour slip? How about LTN- Egypt or Israel-back to LTN then taxi to LGW. 3 cabin crew 737, full meal service both ways. I'm afraid the reality of life outside hasn't sunk into BA yet! I hope they see sense, but they will get broken if they go ahead- the costs disparity is ginormous.

[Carnage Matey!]

Isn't that about the legality of calling a ballot and protections given to both employees, trade unions and employers, not about compensation for unfair dismissal?

Possibly the wrong link but I know the one he means. If you don't have a legal industrial action you can be sacked for breach of contract and it's all legit. If you do have a legal action you can still be sacked, but then its unlawful. However BA still don't have to take you back and can just pay compensation. Thats the law I'm afraid, even if BASSA don't want you to hear it.

[Pilot Pete]

From the DTI:

Dismissal during an industrial dispute

It is automatically unfair to dismiss workers for taking legally organised official industrial action lasting twelve weeks or less. It is also unfair to dismiss them where they have taken action for more than twelve weeks if the employer has not first taken such procedural steps as are reasonable to resolve the dispute. It will be for the employment tribunals to determine whether an employer has taken all reasonable steps, and in doing so, they will have regard to the behaviour of both the employer and the union. For further information, see Industrial action and the law: a guide for employees, trade union members and others.

Otherwise, subject to the exceptions listed below, an employment tribunal has no jurisdiction to determine a complaint of unfair dismissal from an employee dismissed while participating in official industrial action provided his or her employer:

has dismissed all who were taking part in the action at the same establishment as the complainant at the date of his or her dismissal; and
has not offered re-engagement to any of them within three months of their date of dismissal without making him or her a similar offer.
Likewise (again, subject to the exceptions listed below), an employment tribunal has no jurisdiction to determine a complaint of unfair dismissal from an employee dismissed while participating in unofficial industrial action.

The exceptions are that an employment tribunal can determine a complaint of unfair dismissal from an employee dismissed while participating in official or unofficial industrial action if the reason or main reason for the dismissal was:

the taking by the employee of certain specified types of action on health and safety grounds (see Dismissal for taking action on health and safety grounds);

on maternity related grounds (see Dismissal on the grounds of pregnancy or maternity);

in respect of the taking by the employee of certain specified types of action as an employee representative or as a candidate to become an employee representative, or of the participation of the employee in the election of such a representative (see Dismissal relating to activities as an employee representative); or

that the employee exercised rights under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (see Dismissal relating to the Working Time Regulations 1998); or

that the employee exercised rights prescribed in the Maternity and Parental Leave etc Regulations 1999 (see Dismissal relating to parental leave, Dismissal relating to time off for dependants, Dismissal on the grounds of pregnancy and maternity); or


for reasons related to paternity or adoption leave (see Dismissal related to paternity leave and Dismissal related to adoption leave; or


that the employee asserted the right to time off for dependants (see Dismissal relating to time off for dependants); or


from 6 April 2005, for reasons related to the right to request flexible working arrangements (see Dismissal relating to the right to request flexible working arrangements); or


from 6 April 2005, that the employee had been summoned for jury service or had been absent from work on jury service (see Dismissal relating to jury service).
An employment tribunal can also determine a complaint of unfair dismissal from an employee dismissed while participating in unofficial industrial action if the reason or main reason for the dismissal was that the employee made a protected disclosure within the meaning of the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 (see Dismissal for making a public interest disclosure).





Award of compensation

Where the tribunal finds that an employee has been unfairly dismissed it will provide the alternative remedy of an award of compensation. Such an award will usually consist of:

a basic award, based on the employee's age, length of service and weekly pay and calculated in a similar way to a redundancy payment;
a compensatory award, which is an amount which the tribunal considers just and equitable for the loss which the employee has suffered because of the dismissal.
Basic award

The basic award is calculated by adding up the following amounts, but only continuous employment within the last 20 years can count:

11/2 weeks' pay for each complete year of employment when an employee was between the ages of 41 and 65 inclusive;
1 week's pay for each complete year of employment when an employee was between the ages of 22 and 40 inclusive;
half a weeks' pay for each complete year of employment when an employee was below the age of 22.
The maximum number of week's' pay that may be awarded is 30. There is also a maximum week's pay that can be used to calculate the award. (The limit on a week's pay may vary from year to year: the current figure is given in Limits on payments and awards). In trade union, health and safety, employee representative, workforce representative and occupational pension scheme trustee cases (see Interim Relief) there is a minimum figure for the basic award. (This minimum may vary from year to year: the current figure is also given in Limits on payments and awards).

The basic award, including the minimum award in trade union, health and safety, employee representative, workforce representative and occupational pension scheme trustee cases, will be reduced if:

the tribunal considers that the employee's conduct before dismissal justifies a reduction;
the employee was within a year of age 65 at the effective date of termination (only until 1 October 2006);the employee has unreasonably refused an offer of reinstatement from the employer, or has unreasonably prevented the employer from complying with an order for reinstatement; or the employee has already been awarded or has received a redundancy payment; or the employee has been awarded any amount in respect of the dismissal under a designated dismissal procedures agreement.
From 1 October 2004, where an employee has been dismissed without statutory dismissal and disciplinary procedures having been followed (if failure to follow them was wholly or mainly the employer's fault) and the amount of the basic award is less than four weeks' pay (before any reduction for the last two reasons above), the tribunal will increase it to four weeks' pay unless it considers that this would result in injustice to the employer. Such an increase will also be made, from 1 October 2006, where it is found that an employee has been unfairly dismissed as a result of the employer having failed to comply with the duty to consider procedure in connection with an employee’s request to continue working beyond retirement.

Compensatory award

This award compensates the employee for the loss suffered as a result of the dismissal insofar as the employer is responsible for this loss. As well as covering the loss of earnings between the dismissal and the hearing and an estimate of future loss, the tribunal will also consider matters such as loss of pension and other rights and any reasonable expenses incurred by the employee as a result of the dismissal.

The compensatory award is an amount the tribunal considers just and equitable in the circumstances, but there is a maximum compensatory award except in cases where the reason for the dismissal is that the employee made a protected disclosure under the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 or took action relating to health and safety. (The maximum compensatory award may vary from year to year: the current figure is given in Limits on payments and awards). In particular, the tribunal will reduce the award if it finds that the employee was partly to blame for the dismissal or because the employee did not mitigate his or her loss - for example, by failing to make reasonable efforts to obtain another job. Certain payments made by the employer to the employee - for example, wages in lieu of notice or an ex gratia payment - will normally be offset against any compensatory award. The compensatory award will also be reduced by the amount of the employee's earnings from any other employment between the dismissal and the tribunal hearing.

Since 1 January 1999, tribunals have had the power to reduce the compensatory award where the employee has not made use of an internal appeals procedure whose existence he or she was informed of at or shortly after the time of dismissal. Similarly, the tribunals have been able to make a supplementary award, subject to a maximum of two weeks' pay, where an employer has not allowed the employee to use an appeal procedure provided by him or her. These provisions will be replaced on 1 October 2004, when statutory dismissal and disciplinary procedures come into force. Under the new provisions, if an employer dismisses an employee without the statutory procedure having been completed and the failure to complete it was wholly or mainly the employer's fault, any compensatory award will be increased by at least 10 per cent and up to 50 per cent. Similarly, if the procedure was not completed and the fault lay wholly or mainly with the employee, any compensatory award will be reduced by 10 to 50 per cent. At what point on the scale between 10 and 50 per cent to make the increase or reduction will be at the tribunal's discretion, and in exceptional cases it will be able to make one or less than 10 per cent or none at all.

Non-compliance with the terms of an order for reinstatement or re-engagement: additional award

If the employer refuses to comply with the terms of an order for reinstatement or re-engagement, then the employee should notify the tribunal so that it can look into the matter. If the employee's complaint is upheld, an award of compensation will be made and if there has been a total failure to comply with the order there will be an additional award of compensation over and above the basic and compensatory awards, unless the employer can satisfy the tribunal that it was not practicable to comply with the order. The additional award will be between 26 and 52 weeks' pay.

There is a maximum week's pay that can be used to calculate the additional award. (The limit on a week's pay may vary from year to year: the current figure is given in Limits on payments and awards).

Note: Employment tribunals may however exceed these limits if the total compensation awarded (apart from the basic award) would otherwise be less than the arrears of pay element of the original award with which the employer failed to comply.




PP

[crewboi83]

This is just my opinion before i get hung by the gallery here!!
But....
I agree with all the opinions about BA crew having it to easy! Come and work at the other airline... or ANY other airline in the UK, we dont all these cushy perks regarding roster disruption etc etc..... many of my good mates work for BA and they have it far to easy..... they get their arses wiped for them every single day!!

You wanna get yourself to one of your sister companies like Connect... see what its like to do a real days work!!

[overstress]

Litebulbs - I've changed the link to the correct one now - it opens a .pdf from the DTI. Makes chilling reading. It's also here (http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file11516.pdf)

[atyourcervix73]

1 in every 15 strikers fired on day 1. How long do you think support for the strike will last?

15 days?

Thanks PP, I was looking for that bit:ok:

[overstress]

PilotPete - you are posting (correct!) cut & paste blurb, I think our hosts would prefer links instead?

[Litebulbs]

What I can find on the DTI site is a MINIMUM of £4000 comp for union activities, with a cap of £58K as compensaton (though im sure I have got info somewhere on no limit, but we will stick to £58K!) and the basic award of £290*years service.

Big sums!

[Joetom]

A great thread so far.
.
I think the CC will enjoy support from the general public and many fellow staff, however it appears from reading this thread many pilots are not happy with the CC vote, appears fair enought to me, lets be fair, fair play etc etc.
.
Why do the pilots appear so happy with their deal???:hmm:

[24 Hour Clock]

BA cc are livin in the past: I admit that in ages gone Aviation was for the rich/wealthy - not anymore. Their prestige jobs are now the norm.

W.W. Has a business to run. And at present the cc wages/ allowances is an obvious one to target to reduce costs. After all he is responsible for running one of the worlds Blue chips companies. The greed of BA cc will be the down fall of "The worlds Favorite Airline" _ If they do not concede to modernization.

In days past BA was the best airline in the world - and a model that all modern airlines have based their product. Not any more - Good luck Mr B, You will never loose your ' Virginity":8

After all if BA cc are that disenchanted they can always apply to VAA - Good luck to all the over 30's ;)

[Doodles]

Have to agree to some extent with "24HR". The product in Club and especially First is well out of date with almost all other top rank long haul carriers and to make it worse, in my experience only roughly 1 in 3 flights I take could I say the BA CC are happy, cheerful and welcoming.

Other carriers have similar CC morale/attitude problems for sure but BA seems far worse than most. Why - the customer is who's important, pays thousands for these premium seats and also has the power on many routes to switch to a happier environment. WW is running a business, not a flying club, although it really is the Exec Club that keeps most business passengers coming back, not the seats, meals, IFE or prices which are all now well out of kilter with the rest of the market.

Come on, make us proud again - adapt or ....

[El Grifo]

In absence of a reply regarding my question referring to the Miners, I am reminded of a little ditty :-

First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

:ok:

[RoyHudd]

For the nature and amount of work performed by BA CC, they should be paid approximately 60% of their current remuneration. With caps on upper limits. And as for the total sickness record of BA CC as a group, it beggars belief. No other UK company would allow them to get away with this.

And as a pilot and passenger, I always hope to avoid positioning with BA, primarily because of the unpleasant attitude of the majority of their CC. (Arrogant, workshy, and carrying a superiority complex)

[acbus1]

BA employees live on another planet.

A few weeks (days!) with any other UK airline would be a massive culture shock.

On the other hand, I suppose a few weeks working for BA instead of any other UK airline might lead to strikes in those other airlines, assuming that the likes of :mad: BALPA didn't wimp out!

Such is life's struggle.

[frequentflyer2]

I agree with the sentiments being expressed here but I do object to the use of the word 'paddy'.
'Irish man' would have been quite sufficient - perhaps 'ruthless Irish man' would be even more appropriate.
However, the term 'paddy' is not acceptable.

[Joetom]

El Grifo, about the miners.
.
The UK has now paid off the 2nd WW debt to the States, but we still paying off the police overtime bill for the way Maggie treated the miners, Maggie not only closed all the pits, she broke many many family units into bitter people.
.
The best result will be if all the unions work together, if they split and do own deals for their members long term results will be very poor indeed for all staff, should remember we are in a service industry and we need all staff onside.
.
Good luck to all the CC, many other sections will follow your lead.
.
Just heard that Dixons have sole out of Video Cams this morning?:ugh:

[crud12001]

As a frequent Biz traveller BA was always (and still mostly is) my prefered airline.

However i have tried SQ recently (i travel to Singapore every month) and find i can get SQ 1st Class at the same price as BA Club,the service is much much better.

Think the comments regarding the CC attitude and them disappearing during the flight are very valid.

On other airlines this just doesnt happen,if your 4 or 5K for a seat you expect the service to be available during the whole journey and not given with an attitude.

Sorry i dont support you,you are going to ruin a really good airline for greed.

The CC will be replaced over time by eastern european staff and others.

[AirLCY]

I'm afraid I also believe the BA CC working practices and conditions to be out dated and need to be brought into the real world. Dont forget that even the Waterside staff members have been hit from the top, 50% of senior managers being made redundant and I'm sure it wont stop there. No other cabin crew in the world have the conditions and money that the BA CC enjoy, time to get real!

[Flying Lawyer]

I think the CC will enjoy support from the general public

I'm not sure they will.

At the moment the press is covering the union's claims, for obvious reasons, but BA aren't going to sit back without letting the other side of the arguments be known.

Some reports say the union criticises the sickness rules as draconian, claiming that 10 days off a year can lead to a threat of dismissal. Many of the 'general public' go through their entire working lives without going sick 10 days a year.
Of course there are circumstances in which those who fly are unable to work while those in other jobs would just press on, but BA will inevitably point to the curious difference in sickness rates between pilots and cabin crew.
The real 'sickness' issue is well-known by people in or connected with the industry, and I can't see WW being slow to let it be known more widely.

Complaints that BA wants to abolish some in-flight supervisory positions are unlikely to generate public outrage when most members of the public believe (rightly or wrongly) that large organisations in the UK have had too many supervisory positions for far too long and are hampered in making changes by unions wishing (understandably) to preserve established working practices.

Some journalist will inevitably compare BA CC earnings with (for example) teachers, or those in other fields who've had to study (unpaid) for three years to obtain their qualifications.
Or with CC earnings at other UK airlines.
Or with the earnings of those who do similar jobs (outside the airlines) serving the public on the ground.

I also wonder if there'll be much sympathy for a threat to further damage a company which, in common with most airlines, is already coping with financial challenges. Most thinking people now know the airline sector works on very low profit margins; some may not know quite how low. This link shows the profit margin of all airlines worldwide, and compares it with just one company in the oil sector : Link (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/airlinesectorprofits.jpg)
(And with BAA's profit margin. ;) )

Public opinion is always very fickle, and even those who may be sympathetic in principle (depending upon the nature of a particular strike) tend to change their minds when they are personally inconvenienced.

BA CC may or may not have a good cause for complaint, but assuming public support would IMHO be a big mistake.


.

[Speedpig]

Good luck to all the CC, many other sections will follow your lead.


I wouldn't bet on that.

I work at the little regional airport that is enduring and conquering SHPIG.
Everything that we have done over the last couple of years to literally save our ar*es at Gatwick will be wiped out in a single day by a cc strike. Thanks:rolleyes:
Glamgirl's post make a great deal of sense, I hope you read it, as do many other posts against the strike. There is not a single post in here that is supposedly in favour of action that doesn't smack of bravado and stupidity. Tell me again .. what are you striking for? Does the majority know? Or is it just because you came in off a trip and your union rep told you to vote for it?
I would like all 8100 of you that voted to tell me you actually knew what you were voting for.
There is a very harsh reality waiting just around the corner for all of us. We are just a cost when you count us as numbers, as an individual, I still get satisfaction out of my job and I will guarantee you that I deal with a lot more disgruntled passengers (customers) daily than you would in your career.
So what your plane's full? It's meant to be! Get on with it. Try a couple of August 10ths, 9/11s or even the December fog and the daily queues out the door for security if you want to know what real disruption is and how satisfied customers are. By the time they get to you, they are happy, the stressful part is over they are on holiday! And if you get a drunk on board? Call the ground staff to deal with it.
I have been physically and verbally (many times) abused in my job and I still love it and am proud to do it. I don't want you lot pi**ing it against the wall over minor, negotiable grievances. Sort it.

[Jonty]

Interesting times ahead for BA then.

Its a real shame its come to this, and I put it down to bad management. The need for BA to compete and modernise has been blindingly obvious to every one for quite some time. The management have taken notice of this and have decided to do something about it. What is unfortunate is how they have gone about it, panicking they have resorted to bullying and dismissals as a way to cut costs. They have totally demoralised the very people they rely on to give good service to the passengers.

One must ask why? and its because they are easy targets. In the airline I work for one of the senior management was heard to say "If they don't like it they can leave, there's plenty more where they came from!" And that is why BA cc feel the only way to make management listen to them and treat them like assets to the business again is to go on strike.

Good management would acknowledge the need to modernise and compete, and would address this by motivating the workforce and making them feel part of the team. And after instilling a sence of camaraderie and "we are all in it together" you can start to make the changes that are so badly needed in BA . By taking the workforce with you the company can survive and make a future for its self. Unfortunately management of this calibre is badly lacking in BA , and the end result is there for all to see.

[bear11]

I channel-hopped onto the Beeb news last night to see crowd scenes of great jubilation, and people on a podium hugging each other. Reacting publicly like you've just won the olympic bid when you've just heard a ballot result for strike action will not endear you to anyone, least of whom punters who will vote with their feet booking flights with anyone other than BA over the next couple of months.

[bermudatriangle]

The strike vote sends a clear message to Willie Walsh that his bullying,blinkered,misguided leadership that he has brought to this once wonderful company has to change.we all know the cabin crew agreements need a rethink,still lots of rediculous payments/days off requirements.but his dictatorial attitude wont resolve any of them......i am sure his days are numbered and he will go the same way as Ayling.....my only concern is what damage will he be allowed to inflict before he slides off to his next lucrative directorship....leaving the rest of us in the sh.t !!! once again its the poor travelling public who's travel plans will be destroyed.this strike doesn't need to take place,just hope the board bring this madman to his senses and bring the dispute to a sucessful outcome.the staff and the passengers deserve certainty.

[Dogs_ears_up]

BA CC may or may not have a good cause for complaint, but assuming public support would IMHO be a big mistake.

Couldn't agree more!!! The public view of Cabin Crew is always mixed - understandably the perception still remains that (to a degree) we are paid to lie around hotel pools. The perception of BA crew by crew of other airlines will not be exactly supportive either - too many are already doing (and have been for some time) the things that BA crew are complaining about

I'm sure it was terribly exciting jumping and screaming around a hotel conferemce room in front of the media, and in these intitial moment, you may feel full of confidence, vim & vinegar. The realities of a strike are rather more mundane and simultaneously vicious.

I'll give even money that Willie will fight, and that the media will crucify BASSA: Shortly, the public will turn against those crews involved - the strike will fail.

If I'm wrong, then I intend to return to this thread and apologise - I don't wish for BA crew to lose, I just think that they will.

[Jonty]

I don't wish for BA crew to lose, I just think that they will.
Unfortunately I think your right.

[Skipness One Echo]

Jolly good, I shall take my business elsewhere. As a punter, I am often amazed at the complete misunderstanding of the free market you guys live under.
I will take my business elsewhere as you've screwed me over with a tantrum once too often. Don't like the job? Get another one you like, there are plenty out there.

[Marvo]

My wife is CC for BA and voted "YES", I drive for a low-co. Her take home pay on LHR Euro fleet is only marginally above that of the cabin crew at my LOW-CO. I believe she works hard for her money and it shouldn't be the issue. I think she is rewarded for her efforts. What I believe to be the companies concern is the local and archaic agreements such as only being able to operate short or domestic sectors after you have flown in from say, Rome. Long haul cabin crew are paid an obscene amount for the service they provide if you take into account expenses, averaging 50K (in my honest opinion). I would be interested to know the difference in pay between Virgin and BA long haul .

Bassa would like staff at LGW to take part. However this union is also the union that refuses to recognise service at the regionals. So if you fly as CC 5 years down at LGW then transfer to LHR you start at the bottom again ! I would tell them to F***ING poke it!..

Tough times ahead in my household, maybe we should switch to tescos value brand now.

[M.Mouse]

jonty

Your post is full of empty clichés and is utter rubbish. Whenever BA tries to introduce change, and by change I mean get rid of some of the archaic working practises which act like an anchor around our necks, everybody jumps up and down and points the finger elsewhere.

Try giving practical examples of how BA management can instigate these changes without dinosaurs like BASSA and the TGWU threatening to drive more passengers away.

bermudatriangle

I may not like WW as an individual but he has my unqualified support if he can make BA fit to exist in the competitive 21st century environment.

BASSA has backed itself into a corner on the strength of a ballot on numerous indefensible issues. They will repent at their leisure.

The jubilation at the result of the ballot has probably successfully alienated 99% of the hard working individuals in the country who live in the real world.

[Beriltheperil]

[quote=apaddyinuk;3069969]
I think an 80% return of ballot papers with a 96.1% YES vote for strike sends out very VERY strong messages!!!! Only 330 voted no!


So 96% voted in favour of strike action of 80%. Most points on this forum relates to the fact that BA CC do have it good. How many of the 96.1% will turn up on the actual days of the strike, how many will develop an illness and stay away? Of the 96.1%, how many actually do want this strike to happen. And to echo what is it over?

Stikes are never the way forward. Don't take this out on us the public. How many holidays booked over Half Term will be disrupted again?

[Rainboe]

Dogs Ears- I think your take on it is spot on. The BA CC have voted to strike on a range of very peculiar issues (Sickness monitoring?). Their triumphant jubilation will change as the strike fails. The very people most adamant to go on strike, the well paid longhaulers, will dread being the ones to be actually dismissed, so will come to work (better one of the low paid CC gets sacked- less to lose). The strike will collapse as the issues are not life or death (supervisory positions on overcrewed flights anyway?). WW will, I reckon, take them head on and break them as the independants are working like that anyway- BA CC costs are way out of line. Instead of keeping quiet and trying to hang onto their exceedingly generous conditions and agreements, they are sowing the seeds of their termination.

[atyourcervix73]

M Mouse,
Pot calling the kettle black me thinks.....your post is also loaded with clichés:=
Whilst your observations have merit, you miss the key issue here, the workforce have spoken in a unified and unprecedented fashion that the current management ineptitude and bullying cannot continue in its present form.

Most BA CC accept that there needs to be a revamp of certain working practices, but its a two way rather than one way process....which seems to be lost or conveniently forgotten by a large section of posters on here.
The strike ballot and its overwhelming support is indicative of the frustration felt by the ordinary CC members who want to be part of the solution, rather than viewed as part of the problem:=

I would agree that BASSA are guilty at times of overstating issues, but on balance BA management could never be called honest brokers, in point of fact, the middle managers appear to be inept, lacking intelligence, and generally unable to manage.
WW has a fight on his hands, he must find some middle ground with BASSA, his neck is on the line here as much as anyone else IMHO

Rainboe, don't equate the lack of will(or collusion) shown by BALPA members within BA as something that current CC members possess:= (just ask the Eurofleet drivers how happy they are with their current deal)
Perhaps you would be happy to be told that because of a perforated eardrum the company would begin formal ((Sickness monitoring?) procedures to discipline you..........as happened two weeks ago to a CC friend of mine.

[Ancient Observer]

Many of the e-mails on here are "inward looking". If BA CC are to succeed with their strikes, they must gain public support. They must look externally to "joe public". I'm not convinced that current "sickness" levels in BA - at more than twice the UK average, and current working time arrangements (working half the time of teachers), will help BA CC gain public support. 40% over-manning and excessive sleeping time on LH won't gain any support. I think that CC need to pick an issue which will be supported by the public. The current tactic of complaining about everything is not a good tactic. As with other customers who have posted here - I have a choice and do not have to fly with BA. I happen to prefer to fly with BA, but I need certainty when I book a flight.

[Rainboe]

A fight has been called on a mixed bag of unmotivating issues. That is why there will be trouble keeping support when the sack is threatened. I know the sickness arrangements are draconian- nobody can deny the CC sickness figures have been just hilarious, with cancelled services for shortages of CC bad at Wimbledon/Henley/Ascot times. This was needing to be addressed, and everybody has copped it as a result. What the CC are complaining about regarding crewing is something outside that has been worked for years. The greater limitations on flight times by CC than even by the pilots is not something people outside will understand and needs to be addressed. I cannot believe the way I have seen CC work outside- the company cannot remain an ivory tower and WW knows that. A comparison of BA Longhaul CC and Virgin crew shows why this strike will fail. Merely instigating the strike means the company has been handed the means to break the union, and after those daft scenes At the BASSA meeting, there will be absolutely no sympathy. Sadly, you are on a loser.

[atyourcervix73]

A comparison of BA Longhaul CC and Virgin crew shows why this strike will fail.

An interesting perspective, although this strike isn't about a comparison between utterly different organisations, furthermore the argument could be put forward that "whats good for the goose" etc....perhaps a comparison of management positions? (I KNOW that would put the cat amongst the pigeons at waterworld)

As far as dismissals are concerned, BA are on a loser....read the previous posts, and have a look at the DTI website, those that are dismissed will make a net gain financially as well as having considerable further legal recourse.

Its all to play for.....interesting times.

[52049er]

The problem is cervix73 that WW will simply add up what he thinks it will cost to sack the first 300 strikers (at c£12000 each thats about £3.5million) against what he will save by ending the strike (£20million a day?) and future savings to the company.

Most crew I talk to know they are on a good deal (much hilarity the other day when discussing working for a Middle Eastern carrier "have you seen their payscales?") and will not risk it for a one off, 1 weeks-salary-per-year's service plus maybe another £10k, compensation package from BA in 18 months time.

I also think our managers are worse than useless, but I fear for your tactics and have enjoyed too many beers with good CC friends to wish you anything but well.

[M.Mouse]

An interesting perspective, although this strike isn't about a comparison between utterly different organisations,

What are you blathering about Virgin is an airline isn't it?

If you have read the DTI site you have certainly not understood it, you can be sacked and your recourse will be relatively paltry compensation you certainly will not be re-employed.

I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a.

[atyourcervix73]

What are you blathering about Virgin is an airline isn't it?

So is EZY and RYR, but are they comparable?:hmm:

If you have read the DTI site you have certainly not understood it, you can be sacked and your recourse will be relatively paltry compensation you certainly will not be re-employed.

Opppps you haven't read the amendments and the caveat's :}

:D :D :D

[Skintman]

Some facts in this debate might help.:bored:

Does anyone know what the sickness levels for BA CC actually are? It has been in the press previously that they are amongst the highest in the UK, significantly higher than other private sector employers (and other airlines)and even higher than the public sector.

If sickness levels are very high, then WW has a duty to discuss it with BA staff. If it is at normal levels, then the CC have a good reason to oppose him.

Anyone got any figures?

Skintman

[Litebulbs]

But how many other jobs do you risk being disiplined for reporting to work when sick? A cold with blocked ears on the ground is a lot different to a cold with blocked ears in the air!

[overstress]

Litebulbs. That argument works well until you compare BA cc sickness levels with that of the pilots.

Because of BA cc management policy it is very difficult for them to get requested days off. Therefore they go sick, hence the high levels referred to and the introduction of the infamous EG300 policy.

[Litebulbs]

The arguement still works. CC are customer facing and come into direct contact with alot more pax that FD do in a working day. The chances of picking up an illness is certainly greater.

[M.Mouse]

atyourcervix73

So you believe that Virgin are not a directly comparable airline?

[Olls]

So do BA have an issue with sickness? It appears that they do (if people are talking in terms of 10 days sick/year) and are therefore dealing with it. As with all these sort of situations if one is honest about sickness there will not be a problem. However BA are still culturally stuck in the old nationalised mold ('change' NOOOO!!!) hence the strikes. A little like the last strike they had in 2005, no-one had any patience with that one either.

If BA go on strike then surely the union have failed in their objective. (oo unless the union objective is to flex their muscles and cause trouble).

[d246]

I, like so many others I know, will only fly BA if nothing else is available. The arrogance of so many of the cabin crew and the third rate 'service' is just not acceptable. Try the far eastern airlines if you want to see how it should be done. This strike will only damage BA's reputation further, who will risk booking with them when you cannot be sure that they will bother?

[atyourcervix73]

So you believe that Virgin are not a directly comparable airline?

Yep :ok: Take a look at it from an operational standpoint, fleet mix, crewing levels, airline alliances, inflight service, short and long haul etc....

Then look at the differences in management structure, its ethos, vision, and history.

About the only thing that V/S have in common with BA is that they are UK based, have strong BALPA membership, and both operate the -400.
Now M Mouse YOU tell me are they comparable?

As with all these sort of situations if one is honest about sickness there will not be a problem.

Alas this is not the case...read a previous post of mine, regarding a perforated eardrum.

[Speedpig]

So do BA have an issue with sickness? It appears that they do (if people are talking in terms of 10 days sick/year) and are therefore dealing with it. As with all these sort of situations if one is honest about sickness there will not be a problem. However BA are still culturally stuck in the old nationalised mold ('change' NOOOO!!!) hence the strikes. A little like the last strike they had in 2005, no-one had any patience with that one either.

If BA go on strike then surely the union have failed in their objective. (oo unless the union objective is to flex their muscles and cause trouble).

EG300 affects every member of BA staff. It is not specifically designed to "discipline" cc. The majority of sickness, historically, has not been genuine.
The only problem, and cc have my sympathy here, is that ground staff can go to work with a sniffle, cabin crew can't. The process is designed to manage sickenss and eradicate skiving. Am I naiive in thinking that loss of earning through lost expenses should have the same effect?
Are cc permitted to do roster swaps with each other as a means of getting more flexible time off?
How many cc have been terminated through EG300?

[Rainboe]

Sorry, but Virgin and BA are privately owned UK airlines competing for the same passengers, using identical aeroplanes on identical routes based out of the same airports to the same destinations. That's not comparable? The really frightening comparison takes place between BA shorthaul/mediumhaul and the rest of the UK independant industry. Some of the industrial agreements make your jaw drop with disbelief. But it's not for us to argue here- it will be fascinating to see how much WW picks up the gauntlet and whether he uses the strike call as a means to break the union.

[2U5A]

As SLF with just about every airline in the world (except Alitalia) I know how much grief there will be for travellers who may have their trips cancelled, postponed or delayed. I can assure all BA CC that any sympathy and support from the public will very quickly evaporate! Also to the "management," again do not forget who really calls the shots, the customers, not the bankers and investors.
This path of brinkmanship is really a no win situation for all involved!
For senior union reps and management who lurk in these pages, think out of the box, be creative, both sides move your current positions. This is a simple plea from a SLF who has seen combative labour issues destroy too many companies just for the bragging rights of who won!!

End of mild rant.

[atyourcervix73]

Rainboe, so are RYR, Easy, MON, TFly, etc etc.......

They are all competing for the same pax, flying from the same airport, to the same or very similar destinations, so why not expand the comparison to all operators? they do after all fly aeroplanes don't they?

There is no direct comparison, simply because each airline is essentially unique, the argument could be made along the lines of similarity, but nothing more.

It is disingenuous to suggest VS and BA bear a direct comparison, I'd be willing to bet that WW and RB would agree with me, as would their respective marketing departments.



Rainboe..it seems we are in agreement at least in part:ok:

[Rimmer]

Can someone help me out here and explain exactly what the BA CC are not happy with, i got the bit about EG300 but thats life and how many BA employees have been sacked since it was introduced - Zero, if your sick dont work simple.
So what are the other issues?

M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."

I think your having a laugh there !

[TopBunk]

Can someone help me out here and explain exactly what the BA CC are not happy with, i got the bit about EG300 but thats life and how many BA employees have been sacked since it was introduced - Zero, if your sick dont work simple.
So what are the other issues?

M Mouse Quote "I am sure CSDs will soon get other jobs paying them similar salaries to their current gross of £40,000 p.a."

I think your having a laugh there !
Of course he is, he forgot to add the £20,000 pa of extras though allowances, box payments, working one down payments etc etc etc.

[apaddyinuk]

Actually RIMMER...5 have been sacked as a result of EG300.
Ba also want to reduce our conditions....they are there for a reason and we deserve the right to fight for them to be maintained.
We are not looking for anything new or any improvements other then the change in EG300 to more reflect the conditions we work in!
And to all of you who are moaning about bitchy crew and poor onboard service, well yes there are the few (and I mean few) who need an attitude readjustment but for the rest of us, we are only working with the tools we are given which these days is less and less. We are now fighting against the management not just for our own benefit but for yours too!

And lets not forget those like myself who are on the New Contract who earn significantly less than those crew you all complain about who are overpaid....they are now the minority, we are the majority and we are barely paid enough to get by!

[TopBunk]

It is disingenuous to suggest VS and BA bear a direct comparison, I'd be willing to bet that WW and RB would agree with me, as would their respective marketing departments.



Just ask your average punter who is not a card holder what they think and how they choose. They choose 95% on price and the rest on schedule. They do not choose on the BA brand over the Virgin brand, and if they did, I suspect the young (and potential industry leaders of the future) would choose the funky Virgin image over the staid BA image.

BA and VS choose their respective marketing targets carefully.

The whole of BA needs to be very aware of where their bread is buttered and be very careful about not upsetting the goose that lays the golden egg. There is no right of passage in the future based on past performance. Over the past few years, several groups in BA (including silo-modelled management) have lost sight of this basic fact - the cabin crew are just the latest group living in cloud-cuckoo land.

If you have any doubt, go seek out an employee from Sabena, the old Swissair, Eastern, Pan Am, etc.

I speak as a BA 747 Captain.

[TopBunk]

And lets not forget those like myself who are on the New Contract who earn significantly less than those crew you all complain about who are overpaid....they are now the minority, we are the majority and we are barely paid enough to get by!


Paddy,

Let's not kid ourselves here, even as new crew on Longhaul with 5 years service and working a 100% contract, your average take home pay is usually between £2200-2800 pcm. That equates to an headline wage before tax equivalent to £35,000 pa in the UK as a junior cabin crew member.

[apaddyinuk]

Sorry topbunk but the pilots are far more in cloud cuckoo land then the cabin crew!!! Just have a look at the great contradiction known as the "ba pilots to strike" thread!

[apaddyinuk]

Paddy,
Let's not kid ourselves here, even as new crew on Longhaul with 5 years service and working a 100% contract, your average take home pay is usually between £2200-2800 pcm. That equates to an headline wage before tax equivalent to £35,000 pa in the UK as a junior cabin crew member.
Again WRONG WRONG WRONG....My average take home pay (and I have been longhaul for over 3 years) is between 1400 and 1700....My housemate is Virgin crew and sometimes gets more than me! Dont be fooled.

[Rimmer]

AP
I think you will find the 5 that have been sacked are for gross miss conduct, we had 2 in Engineering running businesses while sick, i would imagine there are similar examples for Cabin Crew, let me restate my comment then - how many people have been dismissed from BA under EG300 for being sick - Zero.

There must be more to this than EG300? i have been involved with EG300 and while i concur it does need tidying up it also has fixed hard and fast rules for support of employees with physical or mental problems, something that was never defined before its introduction ( left to your line manager ).


I agree with you the new contract rates are rubbish, that isn't part of this dispute though as far as i knew, i would imagine if the big earners are now the minority the way to go is for Bassa to offer BA something in exchange for a review ( longhaul / shorthaul integration maybe )?
Maybe you should ask for expenses to be incorperated?


So what is BA trying to change that you have written down as a union agreement?

[L337]

Sorry topbunk but the pilots are far more in cloud cuckoo land then the cabin crew!!! Just have a look at the great contradiction known as the "ba pilots to strike" thread!

eeer The thread is prepared to strike. Not to strike.

[PaulW]

It disappoints me that for months now my flight crew colleagues have been asking me "so what are you guys doing about the pension, are you going to support us?" As soon as a deal is acceptable to BALPA, the crew start moaning about how could other people be so inconsiderate to threaten strike action and endanger all our jobs. Somewhat hypocritical. BALPA members within BA have very good terms and conditions because the union and its members have been prepared to threaten to defend them, with a strong united union. When another group of staff customer service group on less than 12000 a year or cabin crew have the balls to defend their terms and conditions you criticize them. Fair play to the crew if they pull it off, but I suspect it may backfire on them. The company has grown wise to strike action and the benefits of such action has dwindled. As recent experiences have proved. BA will not be endangered and neither will our jobs. Those that strike will run the risk of just losing out on lost wages for not working and possibly returning on new contracts. But it is a gamble they think is worth taking and I hope it works them. If any of you were in their position you would agree to defend your terms and conditions too.

[Rimmer]

PAULW
Help me out here though, in engineering we are not happy with the pension but thats a seperate issue and who knows we might follow your lead with it, however what Agreements do you have that BA is breeching?
EG300 was signed up for you and us a while back, i am not happy about it but its a done deal, so what else are we talking about?
Sorry but i really dont see it and i would like too.

[beamer]

I do not know what the pay and general conditions for BA cabin crew actually are and Im sure that they have some valid grievances - however, I do know this much having travelled as a passenger with BA on a wide variety of routes and also with low-cost and charter airlines. The hardest working cabin crews I have ever seen are those employed by UK holiday charter airlines - without question. The slackest are those utilised by some, repeat some, low cost carriers. BA seem to fall somewhere in the middle where passenger service varies between the exceptional to the indifferent.

As far as 'sickness' is concerned - all airlines seem to suffer from the same problem. They preach the fact that crews should never operate when unwell but at the same time seem to keep a running score as to those who get more 'colds' than others. It can go to the extreme - I have known crew being summoned into their managers office to explain their abscences when they have had major surgery ! Yes, we all know that some tend to go sick for the weekend - it happens throughout the industry and beyond - this should not condone however the bullying attitude that some cabin crew managers try and take towards their staff.

I would imagine that most non-BA cabin crew in the UK would look at their colleagues in BA with envy - justified, you tell me ?

[Hotel Mode]

There is a slight difference between having to work an extra 10 years for same pension and having to attend a meeting when you are sick. Its about degrees. BA flight crew have modernised virtually all agreements and fly as many or more hours than our competitors, I can think of only 1 or 2agreements that wouldnt stand up to outside experienced scrutiny. The cabin crew have failed to even think about modernising and have been brought to a frenzy for a load of silly little niggles that they can never win on. (Though i understand the BASSA have recruited the Iraqi information minister Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf to claim glorious victory whatever happens)

The tragedy is when these idiots who currently run BA do actually come after something important the crew will have no stomach for further action.

[Xploy Ted]

Well said Paul W. You hit a nail on the head there. I have witnessed CCs try to rally others to a cause to no avail. They may choose to look after number 1 - which with pilots (I am one) is what normally happens - but they weaken all their colleagues in the process & vice versa.

The only winners are the corporate managers who seldom seem to suffer similar T&C problems oddly enough. Do you think their FS pension schemes are under threat for example?

There will always be those who extract the Michael out of any system - sickness for ex - but there are usually reasons. Like fatigue or feeling used.

Those who say things like "You'll lose you Staff Travel" OR "Look out for your jobs" are either management stooges or naive. You choose.

[atyourcervix73]

It disappoints me that for months now my flight crew colleagues have been asking me "so what are you guys doing about the pension, are you going to support us?" As soon as a deal is acceptable to BALPA, the crew start moaning about how could other people be so inconsiderate to threaten strike action and endanger all our jobs. Somewhat hypocritical

Regretably, this is the impression that is given by BALPA, and its BA members "i'm alright jack..now stop messing things up"
but when has it been any different in the last 5 years?

Xploy, you are exactly right my friend:ok:

[PaulW]

My point RIMMER is that never mind the subject whether it pensions or terms and conditions. Flight crew are prepared to threaten strike action to defend their terms and conditions and have to a large extent been successful. Yes flight crew have moved with the times but had they had a weaker union they would be significantly worse off. Yet when another group of staff wish to defend their terms and conditions they are quick to critisize. Yes some of the cabin crew terms and conditions and agreements amaze me. But just because others have worse conditions why shouldnt they defend them. Soon we will reach a point that unless we are all on minimum wage we have no right to moan which is the point of view of the media when such action occurs.
Engineers have a reached a point of such apathy with our union that we will not defend our terms and conditions just moan about them. But that does not stop us from making observations or supporting our colleagues.

[apaddyinuk]

I agree with you the new contract rates are rubbish, that isn't part of this dispute though as far as i knew, i would imagine if the big earners are now the minority the way to go is for Bassa to offer BA something in exchange for a review ( longhaul / shorthaul integration maybe )?
Maybe you should ask for expenses to be incorperated?
So what is BA trying to change that you have written down as a union agreement?
Actually you will find that it is part of the current ballot under "new starter rates"! More specifically I think they are actually after altering the "capping" rates which we have on our salaries after 7 years. Although you are probably right about the eg300 sackings. But again when the company is using it as a threat to dispose of staff its not very nice. I am currently in stage 3 as I have been off sick for a period of time as a result of a broken limb, now I cant perform my duties under FCO's so why should I have to be intimidated in a meeting before returning to work especially when the interviewers have no medical or physio skills?
L337...It doesnt bloody matter what the name of the thread is, my point is that there are some rather bizarre postings in their from BA f/d on cloud cuckoo land! Fortunately I am very pro flight deck (rare in BA i know and perhaps I should not be) but I always defend them....just not a few certain individuals. However I dont think the cabin crew possible going on strike should be a "them and us" topic simply because we do totally different jobs and totally different pay levels, we simply work on the same tubs!!!

Its very sad because I dont think we will ever see in BA the likes of support amongst colleagues as we had in EI when willie was doing his business whereby Cabin Crew went out in support of the flight deck crew! Now that was a strong message of no confidence. I just dont think people have the balls in BA!

[PaulW]

I agree totally with you apaddyinuk. I am pro flight and cabin crew and anyone that is proactive and passionate about their job and wishes to defend their terms and conditions. Divide and conquer works. We all work together yet somehow when it comes to the crunch lots of secret deals are made with flying crew while groundstaff look on in amazement, which isnt right either.
I am not going to go into final salary pensions... for instance a group of staff (the majority) who have 7 increments and often in my department work for 49 years 42 on top increment and then retire versus one department that has 24 increments for an fo and a further 24 for a captain so effectively one could hang on as a career fo for 30 years ending up on pay point 24 fo and then five years before you are due to retire and enter a type freeze. Take a command course and jump to pay point 24 captain- a close to 40000 pound pay rise and profit from that when you retire five years later having only made five years contributions at that top rate.
That is why flight crew stand to lose the most. The final salary pension aps or naps is a fantastic deal for staff who have a pay that more than doubles in the term of their employment. An average salary pension or money purchase pension will never match that deal. In fact as an ex cadet pay will quadruple in the term of employment!

[Tandemrotor]

apaddyinuk

As BA FD, I sympathise with the position of very many BA cabin crew. I genuinely believe we have many of the best (and a few of the worst!) in the business. I am sorry if the impression you, or any other cc, have got is that the pilot community is at best ambivalent, or at worst, hostile to the current action.

I would like to think that the overwhelming majority of us, are indeed sympathetic on an 'individual' basis. I just wish your union was a little 'smarter', that's all.

But then, perhaps mine could be too.

[PAXboy]

A simple pax of 41 years paxing experience speaking.

To the CC. I must say: "Great sympathy with your situation but ... tough, that is life in the UK in the 21st century." I have said the same in the Pilots Strike thread and it seems, to an outsider, that their grievance is greater. They are seeking to make the company pay what they have already earned and you are seeking to make BA continue paying into the future.

Flying Lawyer in post #76 of this thread said it all and I would add, that bad managment is not the preserve of BA. Those companies where a decision to rationalise is started at the top and promulgated downwards with clear explanations, sympathy and alternatives? Nope, I ain't seen many of them either.

bermudatriangleThe strike vote sends a clear message to Willie Walsh that his bullying, blinkered, misguided leadership that he has brought to this once wonderful company has to change.
Eeerrr - No! It tells him that CC have made a crucial error of thinking that it is the 1970s. Strike action will not be seen as valid by the public. The only ones who are likely to get that support are teachers and medical staff.

Why? Because most folks in the UK work steadily and have to meet high payments for housing, due to the tragic way in which the property market has been allowed to let rip by the banks and government. Folks see their conditions of contract eroded all the time - why not yours too?

One of the problems for those that join the airline world is that your whole career tends to be in the airline world (naturally so for flight crew). This means that you only hear about the loss of conditions in other fields at second hand. Yes, of course, your families and spouses may work in loval govt or commerce but you run the risk of only seeing how the airline world was 20 years ago and it has always been different to the rest of us. After all - that is why many of you went into it!

Dogs_ears_upIf I'm wrong, then I intend to return to this thread and apologise - I don't wish for BA crew to lose, I just think that they will.
Yep, that goes for me. I'm sorry but this strike will fail not least as BA would rather the CC strike and damage the company than that the pilots strike. You can replace CC faster and more cheaply then pilots. The qualities and training for CC can be met much more easily. If the CC strike and damage the company, then the FC have an even bigger problem on their hands. If they had co-ordinated and made the two strikes coincide?? Just possibly, they might have moved the mountain but that will not happen and each union is going their own way. Once again, just as BA need.

I am sorry to see other people gaining bad management and then losing their conditions of contract BUT that is the same gain and loss that I have seen and experienced in the past 16 years since the recession of 1990/91 turned the tables. The airline world is far behind others in this process.

You might say that you have negotiated all that you can and had to draw a line somewhere, just remember that the mgmt and board have been preparing for this far longer than you.

Once again, I'm sorry.

[Hotel Mode]

I am not going to go into final salary pensions... for instance a group of staff (the majority) who have 7 increments and often in my department work for 49 years 42 on top increment and then retire versus one department that has 24 increments for an fo and a further 24 for a captain so effectively one could hang on as a career fo for 30 years ending up on pay point 24 fo and then five years before you are due to retire and enter a type freeze. Take a command course and jump to pay point 24 captain- a close to 40000 pound pay rise and profit from that when you retire five years later having only made five years contributions at that top rate.

Firstly FO pay is capped at paypoint 18 so there is no such thing as a pay point 24 FO. Secondly If said FO chooses to take that 25% pay reduction by not becoming a captain a more junior guy will take his command instead so someone will be paying command contibutions longer than they would otherwise so there is no net loss to the fund. Additionally BA would be apying a lower paypoint command salary too so they would gain.

Also there is presumably a chance to be promoted to other grades in your dept (I appreciate there is no guaranteed promotion) but if you did get a promotion say 5 years before retirement would you not expect to gain in retirement from that?

As for secret deals, well all the unions (except those that were too busy) were at the meeting so i dont see what the big secret was.

[Rimmer]

PaulW
I am all for defending Terms and Conditions but i know of no written signed union agreements that BA are trying to change, i am not here for a wind up i want to know what they are trying to change, believe me if you do go out BA has a fantastic PR machine and to have support you will need to be clear on what they are doing, as now i don't see it.
Quote "Engineers have a reached a point of such apathy with our union that we will not defend our terms and conditions just moan about them. But that does not stop us from making observations or supporting our colleagues."
No idea what you are trying to say there mate.
AP
I commiserate with you over the interview i have had one or two, however its the same there for you and I, the time to oppose EG300 has passed and being unhappy is not a good enough reason to strike.
As for your other comments if you have an agreement to certain pay levels and BA are changing them without negotiation you have my and the majority of the engineers support
PaulW
Tell me about it but your guilty of the same as me Envy, we in engineering have 2 increments and that's it, do the pilots do well Payment Vs payout from NAPs over their Careers - blood right they do certainly better than us, I see no reason at all why my Union should recommend acceptance, however going off track, if you said to me BA were enforcing changes to my pension that are not the same as other groups we would know what's happening and you would get 100% support.
Quote "That is why flight crew stand to lose the most. The final salary pension APS or naps is a fantastic deal for staff who have a pay that more than doubles in the term of their employment. An average salary pension or money purchase pension will never match that deal. In fact as an ex cadet pay will quadruple in the term of employment!"
We know that as well, we believe its one of the reasons for the £2.1 Billion deficit but you announced your strike ballot with negotiations continuing, if its the pension we might join you!

Hotel
Quote"As for secret deals, well all the unions (except those that were too busy) were at the meeting so i dont see what the big secret was.

Seems the GMB found it though!

[bushbolox]

they are now the minority, we are the majority and we are barely paid enough to get by!
Paddy
You later state that you ONLY take home 1400-1700 a month .
Many many cabin crew from the independant sector would kill for that and GET BY on less.TRY LIVING WITHIN YOUR MEANS. What ever the skills needed for your job , it is , as stated, unskilled in economic terms. IE not professional level.Your choice to do it. A huge part of the industry earn less for much more work and dont get the staff travel,hotlines, and rosta stability that you do. Oh and I forgot, they also have to have interviews after sick, have to produce DR letters over Xmas or any other embargo period and generally work harder.In other words you new sick policy is a breeze. You have been exposed to it due to abuse. I would bet a months money(about 1400-1700) that its the same abusers now braying loudly for a strike
As for the general public they are just going to think you are taking the p1ss.
I also endorse from personnal experience the MOSTLY surly attitudes from BA crew including the snooty snarls from positioning longhaul crew, in uniform, on the shuttle should you dare to sit next to them.The snarl decreases slightly if they catch a glimpse of an industry ID or paraphinalia. Still its first impresions that count. I also dont want to be treated to a bitchy whiney conservation booming from the galley however the crews in LGW seem generally better, but they are usually new, so lets see. Mybe just tarred with the same brush
Again, GENERALLY, amongst operating longhaul crew the feed em and **** em off philosophy is alive and well from my extensive positioning and personnal travel. I had a friend moan last year they they didnt get a rest on a Cairo, the Dubai crew on one flight must have been hiding with Bin Laden...and so it goes.
You will be broken. Generally, as a workforce, behind the woolly concern you pretend to have for each other, are as a rule selfish, bitchy and dont have the balls for it. Arthurs or Marthas. The bottom line, your package is not that bad, (wages wages calm down dear) and the support thin on the ground for your plight. Certainly amongst your industry peers.
Inshort Paddy
You lot are starting to believe your own Bullsh1t
:ok:
ps please note the generalisations are intentional. This is because generally thats what people notice, not your little language badge.
Ps pm me if you need a job in a week. You seem like a nice bloke and we need a few juniors. Or if you prefer to avoid reality i could post you the obligatory pins to stick in your eyes if you'd rather do that. (ps thats Flight crew type sarcasm, not wooly CC carey sharey crocodile tears):D

[4468]

Hypothetical question:

Three, one day strikes. One in February, one in March, one in April.

Anybody like to hazard a guess how much that might cost BA?

[hetrotrolleydolly]

BA is a wonderful airline, lets not get a bunch of overpaid cart pushers get BA down. There are lots of girls who will I am sure do your job with half your pay and conditions. Get into the real world, you have had it too good for too long.
Go on Wilie sort out whats good for the share holders, look after who matters and "take care" of the test.
GO WILLIE GO!!!!!!!:D
Oh dear did you fail the interview ?The BA bashing which was once the national sport has reared its ugly head yet again .It made a pleasant change to see BA cabin crew determined and strong once again ,more power to them !
It is regrettable that the customers will be inconvenienced however BA (mis)management has messed with cabin crew for long enough ,the idiot Ayling et al! Good luck to you all from a former "cart pusher "colleague !:ok:PS think you should change your handle to BARCLAYS!!

[PaulW]

No I don't envy flight crew. I admire them and what their union has done. Why sit back and envy someone, get on and do something about it which I have.

Not quite sure where you work RIMMER can't be the same BA Engineering that I know. We simply have lost trust in our own colleagues (within engineering) that we would stand up together united. When we have previously been upset by changes such as the introductions of JAR66 but no change to license pay and no increase to authorisation pay, that was originally promised (6 years ago), the agreement is for one type but now we certify for two, three or even four types with no extra pay. When we have all agreed across all shifts in the terminals to stand up and be counted, the union general convenor has come down and given us a speach about he is not going to lose his house over it, Arthur Scargill didn't even lose his house, but never mind that. Our union reps through confusion try and pursuade us to the companies point of view and aren't interested in the hard work of doing the reverse.

But we have admiration for those of us within BA that have the balls to stand up for what they believe in.

Bushbolox whats wrong with having better than average pay, if you have it why agree to lose it just because others dont have it. That would be a step backwards. If you want more money go get it, if you have more than others then fight like hell to keep it.

[atyourcervix73]

£25-40 million per day, depending upon who you believe...

My my Bush, you are a rather embittered individual:ooh: Nice try to upset people with the non-skilled comments, it probably suits your own persona...considering your profile says your a plastic bus driver:ugh: manual thrust anyone?

[Sabre-Rattler]

Here are some comments from the litle darlings

They would sacrifice every last one of us if it meant more in their pockets at the end of the day. They should realise that Continental and US Airways will most definately go pop sometime this year, that in itself would add a surplus of some 8000 pilots to the aviation job market. All with curent licences on all of our aircraft types....... I have a friend who is a captain with Continental on 747's, senior too, currently earning $85,000 per annum (£44,000)........Our 747 skippers boast a minimum pre-tax pay packet of £110,000 plus....... Who's overpaid now? Buy one, Get Two Free!

FlyboyBA I have to agree that yours is the post of the day.
I'm angry with them for bellowing for months like irritable bulls about 'their' pensions. Then when their reps sell them down the river and leave us isolated they have the absolute cheek to start dissing us. They sold out on flight pay and regretted it, they did the same on sickness and now on pensions. As they seem to have no balls at all what is it that they sit there scratching all day?

Don't the FC just whine on and on like an old airbus about their pensions. But as soon as the £££ signs r shown, they sell their souls 2 the devil. I agree with u delankev, FC have no balls at all!

They have mansions, flats in the alps or dordogne(not all of them though) , their basic is higher , they have a medical pension : we don t , they allways ask for the food from 1st class and some of them not all of them can make your life miserable if the beef is too salty or their tea too white ...I am cabin crew, here to serve passengers and look after Flight Deck if I am the galley bird but I am neither a private cook nor a domestic , in the country where I live they call it Chacha . We must stand together as Cabin Crew and stick with our union . I just want to think that the guys who placed these comments are a minority and only a minority but they are the same sad nigels we get on board sometimes.
Thank you BASSA

Just did a trip last week with a training Capt ; he was giving off loads of spin basically trying to encourage us no to strike, and that really all the issues where not that important, certainly not worth loosing your job over, which he insisted would probably happen, and we would then have to fight to get them back!
Me thinks he had been given his orders from above, I suppose training does mean he represents management. Needless to say he hardly got any response, and nobody bothered to talk to him afterwards.


Go get em Willie. £50k for CSD? Now's yuor chance.

[Rimmer]

PaulW
Ddnt realise you were engineering but a few points for you.
Firstly i agree Amicus can be poor but at the end of the day the reps know when the chips are down the guys wont support them - Your correct but its not entirely the unions fault you and i are to blame.
Secondly what happened with JAR66 ( with its agreement for 2 types and most only do two ) is you got an internationally recognised qualification without doing any kind of exam, thats something all the other UK airlines never had and something it has taken me 10 years of hard graft to achieve, from the union point of view in the UK it was a major result, BA would have been happy to demote all the technicians and then hand pick the ones it wanted back in grade, as it is BA is the only airline in the UK with 10% carpet fitters as licensed engineers!

Quote"But we have admiration for those of us within BA that have the balls to stand up for what they believe in."

So might i if i knew what thier issues are, very soon BA will take them to pieces if they strike, if i dont know what their issues are how on earth could they hope for support from the public, BA has a increadible spin machine and it will turn the public to BAs side very quick.
I am with you on Pay, so what if they do well , Willy Walsh does OK and as i remember a certain SIR Rod Eddington did ok for doing well ...........nothing

[CFC]

Having read through the many posts to date on this thread it makes me sad to read comments from many of my colleagues within the airline industry.
Whatever the Cabin Crew are currently paid and whatever T&C's they work to is totally irrelevant - the whole point of the propsed strike action is their reaction to the bully boy tactics and lies that BA have used over the last few years to change the above, which have now brought them to this very important decision.
I find it hard to believe that any readers of this post would not like to react in the same way if they were in the same position with their management.

[PaulW]

Not sure where you work RIMMER. Your first name isnt Alan is it. :} With an answer like that it sounds like it. (Our former general convenor who sold us down the river) The prime reason a lack of trust in our AEEU now AMICUS union has developed.

By giving away an "internationally recognised" qualification to all and sundry, many who quite honestly should'nt have it, have rendered it worthless. If it has taken you ten years to get an A license I'm worried. They certainly didn't give away B1 and B2 licenses like the french authorities. Certainly licensed carpet fitters as you call them isnt anything to be proud of. Frankly Ill be suprised if you work on the shop floor, with your last post.

Yes the unions strength is its members but the members are tired of having the rug pulled from under them anytime they try and stand united by their own union who frankly enjoys the status quo of not having to do much.

But this thread isnt about engineering state of affair so this is my last post on the matter of engineering and its relationship with its union.

[4468]

Sabre-Rattler

You're a management Poodle.

Why not post under the name you normally use, or just poke off!

[BahrainLad]

Continental? With 747s? My God, has anyone told Bethune!?

[Get Smart]

Just digressing back a little on the hot debate as to whether or not one can be sacked for AI and the complications that follow.. If it's that plausable, then why don't more companies do it and more importantly (as it has not been their style in the past), why didn't BA do that in 97, the wildcat ground staff swipe card strike, and why then, were only a couple of baggage loaders sacked for crimes of insighting others to strike when they all illegally walked out last year during the GG scrap bringing the entire airline to a costly standstill?
Whilst your comments are probably right, surely, legistically, sacking the strikers may seem like a solution but it's not really a likely course of action because despite what some city slickers may think, replacing an 11,000strong workforce isn't as easy as it sounds. It's not a matter of just nipping down to the job centre and teaching monkeys to pour tea/coffee? Lets not forget the cost of recruitment, uniforming, training, admin costs, legalities of experienced crew members per flight, looking after their most important customers (Club) etc, etc whilst Virgin will no doubt be riding on the back of this with an agrressive advertising campaign to lure BA customers their way as they always do ... and becoming more successful at it everytime we piss off the public. If I were Jo Public, I'd given up on BA years ago!
BA have had a rather dreadful year when it comes to glossy publicity. Can it really, really afford another massive disruption crisis that the airline could possibily not sustain? If the airline doesn't perform, the shareholders don't get their returns and topdogs @ bluewater won't get their fat doshy bonuses .... Isn't that what this is all about? Bottom line ... Money money money? WW can't afford to gamble this way with other peoples money, not to mention what he has to loose himself!
Sorry, but sacking the workforce, yeah, maybe legally they can, but ... I just can't see it? Can anyone convience me I'm wrong?
PS Sorry city slics, don't take offence! None meant. x x :zzz:

[Rimmer]

PaulW
Rimmer ( no relation ) has gone now and time moves on - we voted him out.
No it hasn't taken me 10 years to get my A License but the without types and 8 type ratings actually took me 16 years ( and i don't mean 8 authorisations )!
Quote " Certainly licensed carpet fitters as you call them isn't anything to be proud of. Frankly Ill be surprised if you work on the shop floor, with your last post."
Well be surprised then and no its not anything to be proud of at all ( its estimated 20% got through with forged books, frankly BA should be ashamed but i see all the instigators of it have now left.
Quote "Yes the unions strength is its members but the members are tired of having the rug pulled from under them anytime they try and stand united by their own union who frankly enjoys the status quo of not having to do much."
Oh is that right, if you hate the union so much why don't you actually do something about it? some of us are trying but while there's constant remarks to the past and comments like yours its going nowhere, maybe you should show us the way. Ken Hayhow retires soon and nobody wants the job, maybe you would like to do it and lead us forward? dont forget are loads of perks like .....................""" None """ ....................... and its a load of stress dealing with engineers who moan, have never been out the gate in their lives and probably never will.
My MAIN point of coming here today and its still one i haven't had resolved is to know what in slightly more than vague issues the cabin crews gripes are?, all i have found out so far is they aren't happy with EG300, i cannot believe that is the reason for the strike ballot, i haven't come here to knock them at all i just want details of what BA are planning to change with their T + Cs and any agreements the company will breech.
Get Smart
As to can you be sacked - Ask the Gate Gourmet guys next time your out, they can but its difficult for them and they usually have to sack the lot, i would very much doubt BA would do that unless its an all out strike, when you get to that point its S**t or bust anyway - been there.

[PAXboy]

CFCWhatever the Cabin Crew are currently paid and whatever T&C's they work to is totally irrelevant - the whole point of the propsed strike action is their reaction to the bully boy tactics and lies that BA have used over the last few years to change the above, which have now brought them to this very important decision.

I find it hard to believe that any readers of this post would not like to react in the same way if they were in the same position with their management.
"would like to react"? Yes, but to actually go on strike? No. Why, because the UK is such a different place and the CC might have done well to have read all of the Pilot Strike thread, since the problem of mgmt's willingness to enter into a strike was discussed. BA might have lied and used bully boy tactics - and may well do so again but they will win. That is not being defeatist, it is being practical.

[twisted-diamonddolly]

Am sick of all these jealous crew talking about the real world outside of BA. Most of us have worked for crap airlines before joining BA (myself included) so we KNOW what other airlines are like thats why we are fighting so hard.
There seem to be lots of people posting on here who have NO IDEA of our terms and conditions or the reality of our pay scales plus a few BITTER PILOTS who wish their union was as strong and as good as BASSA.
I was never so proud to be BA crew as I was at yesterdays meeting. I refuse to give up anything just because its in a business plan. I intend to fly for BA till I retire. Can all my senior management say they will be here for 20 more years? I doubt it.
I am happy to work with my management to improve efficiency but I will not accept macho management.

( rant over but this thread wound me up. I am not anti FD and am not on the old contract)

[Litebulbs]

I was doing a wiki search a few nights ago and followed a few links and ended up at British Caledonian. I'm 3rd generation BCal and after reading the wiki entry I am proud that I am. Do you know, that through the hard times of the 70's and early 80's, they did not loose one day to industrial action. Right up until the end, they turned a respectable profit and had some of the highest paid employees in the business. Oil, Africa and a few dodgy tricks by flag carriers killed them off, but that is the free market. You can pay your staff well and return a profit. You can be a flexible employee and add to that profit.

It comes down to respect. Neither side at BA respect each other. The impression I get from Virgin, is that they do. Why is that? Is it because Mr Branson has fought for his airline for 20 years and kept them going; well grown them into a market leading airline? I would say yes! The possibilities for BA are endless. It should be a win win. Both pilots and cabin crew are paid at least market rate and a fair percentage are paid market leading wages. BA is a massive company witha great route network. It still does carry the flag for everything that is British and should exploit that.

Neither side in this problem are winning the hearts of the people. What may happen from this, is that a cash rich, OIL rich nation may pop in and aquire all that is British Airways and it will all be over. In 20 years time another Ppruner could be typing an answer to a thread, but not sayin that they were proud to be a 3rd generation BA employee, you know, that company that is now owned by Emirates!

[Carnage Matey!]

What may happen from this, is that a cash rich, OIL rich nation may pop in and aquire all that is British Airways and it will all be over.

It would be if they tried to buy all that is BA as it would cease to be UK owned and lose all bilateral rights, especially to the USA. Not much point in buying much more than 49%.

[openfly]

As an outsider now, I watched the Tand G union CC reaction with amazement.
Their joy will soon fade to anger when they realise that the T and G have stupidly led them into exactly the situation that Walsh wants...namely... a showdown. The city and investors know that he will win and reduce costs. He will shut BA down until he gets what he wants...after all, he has history and has done it before.
Maybe this is why the other cabin crew union is being sensible and sitting quietly on the sidelines.
The only losers will be the T and G union cabin crew.

[bermudatriangle]

Openfly,your assumption that willie walsh will "SHUT BA DOWN" until he gets what he wants is misguided.have you any comprehension of the cost of that course of action ? any savings from changes to cc pay and conditions would take an eternity to recoup.cost savings isn't the main issue in this dispute,it's all about who is in charge.the ego of the ceo is the driving force behind this unecessary dispute and i am afraid if he is allowed to carry on unchecked,he will devastate this airline.hope the board realise what a loose cannon they have appointed and reel him in rapidly,before it is too late.

[CaptJ]

Openfly is correct. If BA goes not get itself into shape and soon it will die the death of a thousand cuts.
Don't think for a second either that BA is immune to a takeover. The present share price reflects the markets belief that this is likely to happen.

[Megaton]

Just waved goodbye to the cc after another 1-2-1 three day tour.....not that it happens very often, you understand :confused: :confused: :confused:

plus a few BITTER PILOTS who wish their union was as strong and as good as BASSA

I think it's the other way round. I've seen the information being put out by BASSA claiming that BALPA have done a deal which disadvantages the CC. So who's jealous of who?

[Joetom]

EG300 was a good trick that cost loads of money to get in, now the Managers who don't know their leg from their elbo can pull it out of the bag and shoot it off at staff who have health issues, EG300 only came to life because many Managers inside the company are not very good dealing at with people, let alone staff under them.
.
Just for info, Cockpit gets nice clean air, Cabin gets old dirty air, that's why CC get more sickness, of course Cabin could get nice clean air, but that would cost money.
.
The pilots appear very eager for CC not to strike and get their (the pilots) pension deal set in stone, can this all be down to the new cockpit doors on all aircraft, or more a case of "I'm all right jack, pull the ladder up"
.
Dixons advise many Video Cams have been returned this morning, appears Manager's shouted EG300 many times at them, but they did not work, Dixons staff told them about the ON and OFF button, but Manager's could not understand, working party about to be set up to understand the terms of ON and OFF...:ugh:

[Fargoo]

I'm an engineer with BA and wish the union members involved all the best. Brave move to vote for strike action these days as history shows no-one really wins. Sad it has come to this but also refreshing that apathy hasn't won out this time.
To all the other posters on here whining about different groups within the airline getting different benefits - boo hoo. Look to yourself and ask what action personally you have taken to improve your T+C's?
Fargoo :ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

As a FQTV I don't have a view to the right and wrongs of the dispute, but I do know that I will not be flying BA for the time being.

Add the particularly onerus restrictions on hand baggage in the UK to this action and the wide choice of alternative carriers and there is one clear message for ALL involved in this dispute.

Welcome to the world of Lemmings.

[Andy_S]

Openfly,your assumption that willie walsh will "SHUT BA DOWN" until he gets what he wants is misguided.have you any comprehension of the cost of that course of action ? any savings from changes to cc pay and conditions would take an eternity to recoup.
That doesn't really matter. The city, the shareholders and indeed any future investors in BA will primarily be interested in the longer term viability of the airline. Losses from any strike action can be dismissed as a one off in accounting terms, but improvements in earnings will be seen as permanent.

[reverse thruster]

ham phisted

my eurofleet roster for jan = 42 sectors this is average
my take home will be for jan, £1500
my rolling flight hours for the year, over 800
the number of times i was given a non op from available in december, 6
the number of times i tried to get those availables filled so i could earn a living wage, countless
your attitude, priceless!
:ugh:
1-2-1 is the excpetion, not the norm

[CEJM]

Cabin gets old dirty air, that's why CC get more sickness.

Joetom, you are halfway there. However do you care to explain why we see a marked increase in CC sickness when the weather forecast is good for a weekend?? Or when there are other major events as named earlier in this thread?

You might not be one of them but unfortunately some of your peers call in sick for the above mentioned reasons. If this wouldn't happen, you would have a very stable trend of sickness without the peakes which occur with nice weather major events.

And one last thing. To be cheerfull that you voted for strike action against the company that fed and watered you for the last xx years? Forget any public support after that show.

Wish you al the best. You will need it.

CEJM

[yachtno1]

Final 3 Greens the baggage restrictions and searches are the same for airport staff as well as passangers!:ooh:

[FIMbar the Furious]

Again WRONG WRONG WRONG....My average take home pay (and I have been longhaul for over 3 years) is between 1400 and 1700....My housemate is Virgin crew and sometimes gets more than me! Dont be fooled.


That works out to between UK17000 and 20000 per year in your hand which is not bad to me for a semi skilled position. If its not to your liking YOU do something about it by getting more qualified and finding a higher paid job or go to Virgin.

No one owes you a living in this world its up to you to make your own way.

I have personally experienced very high levels of service from BA staff but also very low, and the low seems to be becoming the standard these days. I have heard about the galley talk being reffered to as galley FM, fine we all need to let off steam about our jobs some times but dont broadcast it to the customers who pay your wages.

I still regularly recieve high levels of service from other airlines

The only losers in this strike wil be BA staff, Willie will just advertise for more cabin crew who can be trained in 6 weeks I understand, and hand pick the senior ones BA wants for the required number of senior crew.

[Ancient Observer]

Earlier in this thread, someone asked for sickness absence facts.
Here they are, in terms of average days lost per annum.:
UK private sector white collar worker:- 4 days
UK private sector, all workers :- 5.5 days
UK all, (including public sector) :- 8 days
BA Cabin crew :- 16 days

Working time is also worth researching. By my googling, BA CC work half the number of hours compared to a UK teacher. Teachers work less than the UK average.

As one of the self-loading freight, I'm not convinced that BA CC will get public support for a strike.

[Barprop]

Whilst most posters on this thread vigorously defend, in many cases quite badly, their opposing corner's, there seems to be one common theme on both sides - an apparent utter lack of objectivity which runs so deep as to amount to complete blindness to many of the realities. Realities Heliport asked at but haven't yet been forthcoming. Some seem to have lost the ability to see the wood for the trees, and it's painfully obvious to witness here.

Another thing I see and must comment on is the obvious ambiguity which undermines many of the arguments set forth by BA CC members, as follows -

First off, all in the industry must be aware, but none from within BA CC seem willng to acknowledge, that there's a culture of (imagined) secrecy amongst BA CC with regard to their renumeration. It's almost as if the fact that, perhaps, the package is better than that available with most other UK carriers is some guilty secret and must not be discussed in case it compromises that package should the powers that be have their attention drawn to any possible disparity. Well, why? If there is disparity, those powers know it. They write the cheques. An example for those who would deny this or who don't know what I mean - see here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=171218) and you'l quickly get the gist.

Then, in some perversely distorted contradiction of the above, we have those who say, and have used as a defence in this thread, that BA renumeration is directly comparable with other carriers.

Which is it? I don't want an answer. I'm asking you, with honesty, to ask yourself. Doing so, forming an opinion you believe in, and having the courage of your convictions to stand by and air your personal beliefs may lend some, mostly currently lacking, weight to arguments.

Anyway, objectively, surely, for there to be such contention over the matter, there is an issue of some kind. Why else would BA CC pay be such a hot and controversial topic. So you decide... Overpaid and underworked and trying to hide the fact. Or overworked and underpaid and trying to hide the fact? Or is it neither, and the whole thing's a needless drama? The latter seems unlikely given the energy some expend on voicing their opinion, so it comes down to a simple choice from two basic standpoints.

Now, before the 'Even if we are paid more, why should we compromise it?' section of the audience attack me, I'm not saying you are or you should. I believe people should seek to do the bet they can for themselves. In employment, that means being as well rewarded as possible. Of those in the 'We do about the same as anyone else' section, all I ask you to ask yourself is why the 'hush hush' attitude, be it from yourselves or your colleagues, if things are balanced? This widely recognised attitude has never done you any favours, and is most likely to be even more damaging at a time such as this. An open, honest approach stands up strongest.

Next, look at past form. Anyone who knows the industry might wonder if perhaps EG300 isn't partly the result of past, unofficial, trends of CC going sick in reaction to previous moves to erode contract conditions. Such moves, again no secret, may have seemed all well and good to those who employed them at the time, but, inevitably, any action has an opposing reaction. In this case, EG300 may be it. CC sick time is likely to be high for some, not all, of the reasons mentioned in previous post, that I agree with. Perhaps some additional sickness could have been stress related due to increased workloads, fair enough. But to take it to a point where it's almost being used as a lever? Well, that's a dangerous game. Perhaps there's a small minority whose earlier actions have brought you under scrutiny for their parts in such a game.

So far, it may sound as if I'm chipping away, perhaps even attacking. I'm not. I'm asking you to consider how the ethics mentioned above, which you can deny the existence of if you choose, but I can't stop you kidding yourselves if that's your want, appear to others. Really, ask yourselves. It would tend to seem to most outsiders that thare is indeed some issue, of whatever nature and in whatever direction, but, without doubt, an issue. Maybe, in part, even self-inflicted. Not good for garnering support.

I'll leave it there for now, as I'm sure that's enough unintended yet potential contention for one post. Rest assured, being contentious wasn't my intention. It is in fact to encourage some who seem blind to just how disjointed the thinking behind their pitch appears and how transparent the smokescreen is to those on the outside who can be disspassionate about the subject. Perhaps, taking a breath, and stock, might be an idea. That way, you may lend more weight to your arguments by making them more balanced, less emotionally charged, objective.

As already said elsewhere, strike action is a brave move in this market. For having the courage to stand by that conviction alone, I wish you all well, although I suspect that I can't maintain support for a cause in which so often the protagonists appear less than willing to be honest about the issues behind the issues even with themselves. The appearance it gives off of contradiction, attitudes of pseduo-secrecy and ill informed comment will undermine even the best argument, in this case one on which a good deal rides. Please bear that in mind, and also that my viewpoint is common amongst those who are currently on the fence between support and turning away.

[Final 3 Greens]

Final 3 Greens the baggage restrictions and searches are the same for airport staff as well as passangers!

Yacht1, you misunderstand me.

If I connect from home via ZRH, I can take 2 pcs (in C)
If I connect via LHR, I can take only 1, increasing the possibility of lost or delayed baggage.

I must take my PC with me, therefore a LHR connection requires checking my suitcase in, so if you were me, what would you do - connect via LHR or ZRH - all things being equal, ZRH is better.

The other factor is schedule convenience, so if LHR offers more connections I might take the risk of delayed baggage, but if BA adds the risk of disruption, then that skews the decision.

There are 000s of FQTVs out there who travel heavily and weigh up these kind of odds all the time.
Perhaps now you understand my point.

[reverse thruster]

ancient observer

pre eg300 sickness was, if my memory serves me correctly, average 16 days per crew member. if you work a monday to friday desk job and are sick thurs, fri, mon and tues, you are put down for 4 days sick, not 6 ( including sat and sun). pre eg300 if cabin crew were sick on their last two days of their block and again sick on their first two days of their block of work, their days off were included in their total sickness days. BA is very good with numbers. if they looked at historical sickness pre eg300 and reworked the numbers without including the days off in sickness total, i am pretty sure that the number would already have been closer to the 10 days average that it stands at for BA cabin crew at present. two days off above average, perhaps that accounts for the not being able to fly with an ear infection,stomach bug, accidents at work etc

Ba cabin crew are not asking for the number of days allowed off sick to be increased, just that legitimate sickness to be discounted and also not to be bullied by a department there to support crew when they are genuinely sick.

i and the majority of crew are fully supportive of a system that weeds out those that take the mickey of a sickness policy and take unnecessary sick days. i would happily come in and do office work on a day when i have an ear infection which would reduce our absence figures. that however is not an option to BA.

[6chimes]

As someone who is crew for another airline, I have seen a slow erosion of my T and C's. The airline industry has gone for the easy option to cut costs.....work your staff harder, pay them less, get kids living at home with low wage needs and a fast turnover of crew who don't incurr increments.

That all sounds good to the customer who gets a ticket for a couple of quid in some market gimmick. This may sound a little niaive (sorry spelling not good today, its the lack of O2 from working at altitude!) but look around you and see the country going to the dogs. If we always hear the comments "well thats the way things are going these days, its happened in other areas of industry" one day there will be nothing left but rich owners and breadline workers.

The role of cabin crew is not as easy as most SLF think nor do you understand the implications of living our lifestyle...........and before you say "well do something else then". Why should we, WW chose to have the career he has but he has to understand that he does have an obligation to be socially considerate as well as a bean counter.

Whilst BA CC have the excellent T and C's they have, they are still a thorn in the side of most other UK airlines and give the rest of us something to use whenever our management come with a shopping list for more of our T and C's. After all BA are in profit.

BA crew, you have my whole hearted support.

6

[CFC]

Well said reverse thruster!

You fail to mention that BA also originally included those off on maternity leave to make the sickness levels sound worse than what they actually were.
For those that do not understand the BA crew frustration, my case is pretty average. Having flown with BA for 27 years with ONLY 11 days sickness in that period, this year had an accident on board trying to release a jammed trolley. Saw doctors downroute, at home and an osteopath. Off originally for 14 days, then two blips soon after amounting to 10 days. This put me into EG300 (10 days within 6 mths). With a Union rep I was subjected to a 45 minute 'interview'. My case was - that the two blips/10 days should be discounted due to accident on board. But no - sent to see BAHS who obviously saw the link between original accident and two blips a few weeks later and told my 'Manager' so.

However my 'Manager' - after much deliberation as he said - just discounted one blip (4 days) leaving me now showing 6 days sickness this year to date.

Sorry to bore you with the facts but after a virtually clear record during 27 years full time flying, I ended up feeling like a naughty boy who must do better next time....
Although not my union I totally support Bassa in their quest and soon believe Amicus will be balloting for action as well.
All it takes, as mentioned in previous posts, is to treat your staff like fellow adults and they will react accordingly.

It really is that easy to 'Manage' people.

[The Potter]

My wife has worked for BA since 1994. In that time she has had an excellent attendance record & nothing but good reports from both passengers & fellow crew alike. Until last summer she hadn't had a single days sick leave since January 2003. Unfortunately this year she had an injury which required time off & then a minor operation to repair the damage, which again resulted in her needing four weeks off work, all signed for by both the hospiltal & her GP. You would not believe the downright bullying & threatening behaviour that she had to endure when she returned to work! This unit dares to claim that it is there to SUPPORT the cabin crew!!! It was astounding to think that this was the UK's national carrier behaving in such a low down, scumbag way to their own people.

BA is just too politically correct for it's own good. By that I mean they know damn well who the work shy are but they just can't be seen to target them for fear of appearing to victimise the skivers. Instead it's far better to p!ss off your entire crew, demoralise your work force & drive your best staff to look for a far more rewarding career.

Good luck to the cabin crew they deserve far better from a company of BA's supposed stature. :ok:

[Hotel Mode]

By that I mean they know damn well who the work shy are but they just can't be seen to target them for fear of appearing to victimise the skivers

Absolutely right. And the managers dont have the ability to see between the 2. Not sure its strike worthy but the implementation of EG300 on legitimate sickness is appalling.

[speedmarque]

There is an alarming amount of absolute twaddle posted on this thread by people who clearly know nothing about the subject or CC conditions at BA.

Some say CC at BA live in the past and should move forward, when actually its them thats living in the past. 15 years ago BA were paid more than other crew BUT NOT NOW!

And as always the crew from other airlines b1tch and moan about BA crew conditions and get quite nasty......................hmmmmmm rejection letter sitting in your house perchance?

You say if BA crew dont like it they should leave.....true.......but if you are envious of your (inacurate) perception of BA crew conditions perhaps you should apply (or re-apply as the case may be)! :ugh:

[mrcabbage]

Joetom,
Sorry mate, but that is complete bollo*ks. :ugh:
Topslide6, No. What you've replied with is 'complete boll*ks.:ugh:' If you were an engineer/flight crew then you'd know how the air cond. systems work on an airliner, but that's for another thread surely. Cabin Crew- Best of luck to you! It's about time the current management were made aware of how serious the current situation is WITHIN the airline. Mis-management in the past AND present is the reason we are where we are..........:=

[TightSlot]

In the interests of clarity for all, is there anybody who can provide a precise list of the specific BASSA demands and/or grievances behind this dispute (or a link to a site that does).

We all know that many BA crew are unhappy, but many of us would like to understand precisely what they are unhappy about, and more importantly, what would be viewed by BASSA as an acceptable solution to each issue?

Many thanks

[Flying Lawyer]

There is an alarming amount of absolute twaddle posted on this thread by people who clearly know nothing about the subject or CC conditions at BA.
So why don't you explain precisely what the CC grievances/arguments are?

Several people have asked, including people from BA but, for some reason, no-one's explained yet.


FL

[WeLieInTheShadows]

An interesting point about BA crew not revealing their pay. However I would suggest no more than any other group on here. I'm not sure if you'll find a complete and up to date breakdown of BA pilots payscales and projected earnings on here for example (if they are on here then I appologise. I am aware there is a comparrison website out there, but the info is old.).

People in general seem to be cagey about what they "earn". It just seems to be human nature.

Cost cutting is as always the name of the game in big business, and where quicker to cut the cost than at the front line, this quickly make the balance sheets look much better and of course management look better (as they are results driven by enlarge).

NOW, ask one group in a company if money can be saved of course they'll say "yes, but not in my dept!". Ask CC they'll say - cut management pay, ask management they'll say - cut pilot pay, ask pilots they'll say - cut CC pay. And so on, and so on, and so on.

I'd hazzard a guess, and say there are savings to be made in all areas of BA (except mine of course!:ok: ). But as has been said on the pensions issue thread, BA is the benchark on which all other UK (and some others) airlines negotiate their T&C's. If our slip, so do all the others. Something others from those airlines might like to think about when criticising the unions stance.

Clearly as the Pilots have shown in their pension negotiations, the way forward is discussion, not disruption. And obviously not everyone will be happy with the outcome.

From my own perspective as CC for Ba at LGW for nearly 10 years, the money hasn't changed that much, but the cost of living has. It's getting harder for people to see CC as a career instead of a stepping stone or gap fill job.

BA has always been the airline for a "career". When you see that slipping away from you, people get upset. People hate the money but stay for the job they love. Similarly I've spoken to many who hate the job, but stay for the money (both sides of the FD door).

But hey that's life, you only get one shot.

[Carnage Matey!]

Some say CC at BA live in the past and should move forward, when actually its them thats living in the past. 15 years ago BA were paid more than other crew BUT NOT NOW!

So why do they keep coming from Virgin, Easy, Ryanair and bmi? I admit I did fly with someone on shorthaul who said his earnings were on a par with what he earned at Easyjet (about £1700 per month), but he made no bones about the fact that he had to do 3 round trips to Nice and back in a day and sell lots of duty free to achieve that.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Topside - you'd make a great politician!:ok:

[speedmarque]

I expect crew are ignoring requests for more info on this situation because ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!!

Here are the issues, I will not elaborate as it will just degenerate into more slagging off of BA crew. It really is no-ones business except ours and BAs.

Strike ballot Issue 1: EG300
Strike ballot Issue 2: Downroute report time
Strike ballot Issue 3: Preferred Duty sellers
Strike ballot Issue 4: Fixed Links
Strike Ballot Issue 5: Buses
Strike ballot Issue 6: Manchester base
Strike ballot Issue 7: Working Time Legislation 900 hours
Strike Ballot Issue 8: Single Supervisory Grade
Strike ballot Issue 9: Purser / Junior Swap
Strike ballot Issue 10: Post 1997 Pay Scale
Strike ballot Issue 11: Pensions
Strike ballot Issue 12: Gatwick Breakfast Allowance

[Rimmer]

McCabbage

I am an engineer and i can clear up the issue of the Air situation, on all the types i know >>

The cabin receives cooled / heated air from the air conditioning packs ( which ultimately comes from the engine intake ) mixed with up to 50% cabin air as a reycyling arrangement, so yes you have air recycled partially to you as do all the passengers, i wont comment further there.

The flight deck has a direct feed from number one pack as flow priority, recycled air the same as the cabin is normally fed in but to a lesser extent, on some types the flight deck punkas are the same air as fed to the cabin.

So Mccabbage your not 100% right but basically there.

[TightSlot]

I expect crew are ignoring requests for more info on this situation because ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!!

I see - well thanks for providing at least a basic level of information. Much appreciated

[Carnage Matey!]

I expect crew are ignoring requests for more info on this situation because ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!!!!
Here are the issues, I will not elaborate as it will just degenerate into more slagging off of BA crew. It really is no-ones business except ours and BAs.
Strike ballot Issue 1: EG300
Strike ballot Issue 2: Downroute report time
Strike ballot Issue 3: Preferred Duty sellers
Strike ballot Issue 4: Fixed Links
Strike Ballot Issue 5: Buses
Strike ballot Issue 6: Manchester base
Strike ballot Issue 7: Working Time Legislation 900 hours
Strike Ballot Issue 8: Single Supervisory Grade
Strike ballot Issue 9: Purser / Junior Swap
Strike ballot Issue 10: Post 1997 Pay Scale
Strike ballot Issue 11: Pensions
Strike ballot Issue 12: Gatwick Breakfast Allowance

Soooooo,
Issue 1: You accepted it and took the cash. It's not ideal and needs working on but it's not going away, and widespread discounting if illness will undermine the policy.
Issue 2: So the bus gets to the airport 10 minutes too early. Hardly a strike issue.
Issue 3: Preferred DF sellers is no big deal to BA, I'm sure they could drop it, but you can't blame them for wanting those who get the best sales to keep getting them (incidentally, why does the CSD get double commission when they don't do any of the selling?).
Issue 4: Fixed links. They're coming for T5 whether you like them or not. 1-2-1 tours are going to be a thing of the past.
Issue 5: Yes the buses are late. Yes its a pain in the ass. I'm not sure I'd go on strike over it, or that striking would even make a difference!
Issue 6: MAN base is closed and it isn't coming back. Why no ballot when BHX BAR, GLA BAR or BFS Shuttle bases were closed?
Issue 7: You can't change the law. 900 hours is your max but there's nothing to stop them rostering you SEP on your 24XX days. They can handle those days better but they are still going to exist.
Issue 8: Is this a LGW thing or to do with the loss of the CSD on short haul. The former is already a done deal, the latter another big saving.
Issue 9: Another big saving WW wants.
Issue 10: Dreeeaaaam, dreeeamm dreeeam dreeeeaaaam.....Not in a million years.
Issue 11: Pretty much solved until BASSA started grandstanding. I note they've stopped talking about pensions now.
Issue 12:The token Gatwick point. You should have read the small print on the contract.

I'm sure BA will promise you sympathetic handling on EG300, drop the DF seller scheme, assure you the buses will run on time (they still won't), change downroute report times (they'll slip back to where they were), and maybe just give LGW a breakfast (although I doubt they'd need to to break the strike there). The rest, forget about it. Those issues are against progress and for turning the clock back!

[Barprop]

As already posted elsewhere on this site (my blanking since I'm can't be certain from the original poster's lack of comments in reference to it whether or not this letter's author intended it for publication)....

XXXXX and XXXXXX 15 December 2006
XXXXXX HAVE ASKED XXXXX TO PUBLISH THEIR LETTER TO THEIR MEMBERS. THEY HAVE ALSO ASKED ALL THEIR MEMBERS ENSURE THAT XXXX HAVE THE CORRECT ADDRESSES FOR THEM. THEY ALSO WANT IT KNOWN THEY FULLY SUPPORT XXXXX's POSITION ON ALL OUR POINTS OF CONFLICT.

Dear Colleagues,

As you are aware your union posted a list of failures to agree and impasses at the most recent special NSP held on the 9th November 2006. The following list of issues affects ALL CREW across ALL BASES served by Xxxxxx.

Breakdown in Industrial Relations
For the past year your representatives have battled with the employer at every day forums where unreasonable behaviour has been the rule of thumb; imposition sweeps away any chance of discussion, compromise or mutual agreement. XXXXXX find it increasingly difficult to engage with XX on any points which are controversial, costly or both.

Merger of Post and Pre ‘97 Main Crew Pay Scales
Xxxxxx, as your union, has addressed this issue with Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx at each and every pay negotiation since 1997. We support our colleagues on the new entrant pay scales and believe that the benefits of the new entrant starter rates have borne fruit for XX.
It is our view that with the first group of crew directly affected by these scales, having now reached the top incremental pay point, it is appropriate for us to address this issue on behalf of our members once more.

Purser - Junior Swap on 747
This initiative, we believe, speaks for itself and the ramifications for the future are catastrophic. We believe this is the beginning of an initiative by Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxx to remove all but two of the supervisory crew onboard their aircraft.
Promotional opportunities are being removed for our members in XX and this we find unacceptable. A clear example of this can be seen in the imposition of a Purser in charge of the A 321 on EuroFleet.

Preferred Bar Operators
This is a thinly veiled attempt to dismantle our current seniority and bid system. We know from feedback that this system is the preferred method of determining your work position on board.
Your agreement allows you to have an input towards your onboard working position and we are not willing to sit back and allow your agreements to be eroded.
Will this be where Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx stop YOU from having a choice?

Manchester Base closure
We do not believe appropriate consultation or involvement of the TU side was observed in the decision making process when XX chose to close the Manchester base.
With the sell off of XX Connect which part of the business is next? Gatwick? Heathrow EuroFleet? Heathrow Worldwide?

900 hours
We are all affected by this issue. The increase of unusable 24 XX has resulted in the loss of earnings and roster stability for our members.
XX was fully aware of the introduction of this piece of legislation yet appears to have taken very few steps to prepare for the impact this has had on our crew community.

Downroute report time
This issue affects YOU the cabin crew directly due to the increase in security checks/procedures post 9/11 that now result in our reporting anything from 1.5 hours to 2 hours before departure. XX has identified that the cost of this increased time being adsorbed by you, the crew, could amount to anything between 6 and 14 million pounds per annum in saved payments.
YOUR cabin crew agreement state clearly that you are on duty one hour prior to the scheduled departure time.

EG300
All parties accept that this process is not working to its fullest potential. We believe it is being used as a disciplinary tool as opposed a supportive mechanism to improve attendance.

Fixed Links
The trial that was conducted at Heathrow approx 2 years ago was proving unsuccessful, and was suspended due to the imposition of a single purser in charge of the A 321. Crew’s refreshment breaks were affected and now it is being revisited as a cost saving to XX. We believe this proposal will contravene certain aspects of the working time directive.

As you can see the list of disagreements is not exhaustive but at the present time XX has resisted all of the approaches made by your representatives to resolve these issues. In conclusion we would like to offer XX the opportunity to enter into meaningful and productive discussions to resolve the issues mentioned above. Should XX fail to respond to this request within 7 days from the date of this letter, we will have no option but to consult with you in a more formal manner.

If you have moved or your details have changed, please let the offices know so we can keep you up to date with developments.

Yours sincerely,

Xxxxxx Xxxxx Xxxx Xxxxxxxx.

[speedmarque]

Quoting CanrageMatey

It's not ideal and needs working on


Thats all we want, they have imposed changes AFTER AGREEMENT.


(incidentally, why does the CSD get double commission when they don't do any of the selling?)."


Here here!


Issue 10: Dreeeaaaam, dreeeamm dreeeam dreeeeaaaam.....Not in a million years.


Dont think you understand this one. We are not asking for us all to be put on the pre 1997 basic.

[Carnage Matey!]

But you are asking that after 7 or so years people will transition to the old contract pay scales, which not only adds significant costs but also flies in the face of what is surely managements desires to increase crew turnover rates. Which is why they won't do it.

[747-436]

Not working for BA or as Cabin crew but from an outsiders perspective it seems other Airlines manage with just a purser in charge of the Cabin on
an A321.
The union talks about this removing promotional opporutunities from its members.
If BA decides to replace some 747-400's with smaller 777's in the future does this mean that this will be a striking issue as presumably the fewer cabin crew needed will decrease the promotion somewhat?!?!
With downroute report times are BA crew not paid for duty when they start at LHR and continue until they get back to LHR again? If this is the case then presumably reporting 30 mins earlier downroute would not affect pay at all? Unless BA have a different way of doing things?

Just a couple of questions so those not directly involved can get a better understanding of your issues with BA.

[speedmarque]

[QUOTE=747-436;3073723] other Airlines manage with just a purser in charge of the Cabin on an A321.
QUOTE]

As do BA, re-read your info.

[747-436]

I know that BA manage with just the Purser in charge of the A321, it seems from the part of the post below that it is being questioned, hence why I mentioned it.


Purser - Junior Swap on 747
This initiative, we believe, speaks for itself and the ramifications for the future are catastrophic. We believe this is the beginning of an initiative by Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxx to remove all but two of the supervisory crew onboard their aircraft.
Promotional opportunities are being removed for our members in XX and this we find unacceptable. A clear example of this can be seen in the imposition of a Purser in charge of the A 321 on EuroFleet

[Ancient Observer]

BA CC will not have support against eg300 until they get their overall absence down to the same as that of other private sector white collar workers - that is, 4 days lost through sickness rather than 16.

Why don't the Union take the lead, so that those who have many years of zero sickness, but need time off for real issues, "shop" the skivers who take time off for nice weather week-ends and Ascot? (and the HKG 7's). That average of 16 days lost must include some staff who are really taking the mickey. It is in everyone's interest to get them exposed to ridicule.
The TUs and the members should defend those that need defending, not those who are skiving. Then, managers should give their attention to where it is deserved, not to long servers who are genuinely ill. The public would then be far more understanding.

[Cytherea]

It pains me to write this, as I have stated in the past my family's connections with BEA/BA are long and I wouldn't hesitate to use BA on short/Medium Haul services. I too worked at a foreign outstation for BA in the "glory days" and have them to thank for my resulting career in aviation. As a director of a medium sized aviation company (turnover approx GBP15M total air travel spend GBP800K) we no longer use Ryanair because of their stance on industrial relations and we no longer use BA Long Haul because of the service received in Club World or First. To say Virgin is not comparable to BA is to the uninitiated air traveller compete tosh - again it pains me to say it but a straw poll in my office here revealed 80% preferred Virgin's offereing on comparable flights (across 3 classes). Today I have approved 3 Upper Class tickets to Hong Kong, 2 Upper Class tickets to LAX and 2 Emirates First Class tickets to SYD all for travel within the next 4 Weeks and total cost approx GBP45K until some kind of resolution to this dispute is reached no BA flights will be booked at all. What the CC on this forum do not seem to recognise is that this kind of action alienates them from popular support. To say that the dispute is no-one else's business other than the management and unions is also disingenuous, it is very easy to forget that people outside the industry only see the bad press and will blame the strikers for ruining their holiday, business plans etc - look at the ridiculous reactions of some of the interviewees over the fog at Christmas blaming the airlines for the fog and expecting them to use Godlike powers. If this vision of BA continues then I'm afraid I fear the worst but it won't be WW and the top guys that suffer it'll be the people at the coal face. I fully support the workers rights to colectivise and agree that everyone should strive for the best they can get in terms or remuneration and also position but the workers must also recognise their responsibilities to the company they work for and the climate that the company has to survive in.

[Ancient Observer]

Cytherea - best post in whole thread. I remember Putting People First - when they meant customers. Current staff seem to want to Put CC F.... or anyone other than customers.

[atyourcervix73]

Ancient
I remember Putting People First - when they meant customers. Current staff seem to want to Put CC F.... or anyone other than customers

Perhaps that is your perception, it is certainly in my experience not the reality.

I would think a more accurate description would be "management wish to put their bonus first...and be damned with expensive staff"

BA's customers don't give 2 hoots about what the CC get paid, just so long as they get a competitive fare, and they get to the destination on time. So if the CC don't look out for their own interests, no one else will.

[misterblue]

Very pleased with the vote. Please go on strike on school holidays to cause maximum disruption to the paying public. I'm sure they haven't noticed how reliable BA has become at messing up their holidays

It will make my job a whole lot more secure.

Pity about yours though....

MB, a low-cost driver

[angryblackman]

Are they hiring off the street yet?

[Andy_S]

BA's customers don't give 2 hoots about what the CC get paid, just so long as they get a competitive fare

Right. And how are BA going to be able to offer them a competitive fare?

[PAXboy]

The PotterBA is just too politically correct for it's own good. By that I mean they know damn well who the work shy are but they just can't be seen to target them for fear of appearing to victimise the skivers. Instead it's far better to p!ss off your entire crew, demoralise your work force & drive your best staff to look for a far more rewarding career.
It's nothing to do with being 'Politically Correct'. It is all about taking the easy option, as you indicate in your next sentence - don't give them an excuse!!
The easy option is to not do anything about lazy staff. It is the same reason that the Inland Revenue go for the small fry, rather than the big fry who can employ tax lawyers. I recall working in the City 20 years ago: on joining a bank, I learnt that one supervisor was very good - all her annual reports said so. In due course, I discovered that she wasn't and started marking her down. Eventually, she left the company because I said what others did not want to say. It was not nice but it had to be done and the process was started with truthful information from other staff

Remember that almost all modern managers lack two things: Experience and Training. They are not trained to be managers, because that costs money and folks no longer stay with a company long enough to make the training pay back. Secondly, they do not have the experience because they are promoted too young - largely because they are cheap and the old ones (i.e. middle aged) have got so fed up that they have bailed at the soonest opportunity!

That is why they are bad managers - no one has selected them carefully, no one has trained them and no one has given them the time to grow up in the company, as much as in life! As I keep repeating, the rest of the UK is in the same boat with many 'managers' lacking the two of three things they need, the other being natural ability.

The story that you give about your wife is very sad and sadly typical of modern 'management'. Incidentally, if you wondered why the UK govt is in such a mess, it's because it is being run by people with the same ethos and lack of everything that are in BA. BUT this strike will fail to improve your conditions and will succeed in weaking the company and, thus, your conditions.

[oldflyboy]

Agree with a lot of what paxboy has to say, didn't we try to get it right years ago by employing managers who actually flew to look after crew performance? They were not perfect I know, but at least Performance Managers talked our language, or at least the ones I came into contact with did. But they were costly so Mr Bridger I think it was got rid. Just a thought, not much use now I know but sometimes nostalgia for what worked is interesting, or are my old glasses rosy tinted? How many of our current 'managers' have done the job we do?

[speedmarque]

WHAT A JOKE!!! I dont come to work just for the fun of it you know. Perhaps I should work for nothing just so you can all enjoy competetive fares.

As I said before there are some really silly responses by ignorant peolpe here, it makes me laugh!:}

The fact of the matter is I NOR ANY OF MY COLLEAGES will give two hoots about all you armchair CEOs and your comments.

Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.

Stop the hate campaign against people you dont know, or know anything about.

Its all getting a bit pathetic.

[atyourcervix73]

Right. And how are BA going to be able to offer them a competitive fare?
They already offer competitive fares:ok: := , the cost cutting relates to a sum devised by BA management, that must be saved as part of realizing a 10% operating margin.

(but Andy S, I guess you knew that because you must have read the information provided earlier on in this thread, and your question was rhetorical wasn't it? :hmm: )

[Wycombe]

A couple of weeks ago, the wife and I decided we would take a trip at Feb half-term to Prague, that's us and 2 kids.

Spent an evening surfing around the likes of all the LCC's that fly from LGW/LTN/STN/BHX/BRS/BOH/EMA to PRG and after all that found that the cheapest fare for the 4 of us (£350) was BA from LHR (also cheaper than BA from LGW on the dates chosen!).

Great I thought - full-service airline, decent flight times, closest airport (although it's a dump!), but good result :ok:

However, my enthusiasm should have been tempered by the fact that BA is now probably the Worlds most unreliable major airline (for one reason or another). I should have guessed that our plans would be potentially screwed by something like this.

To all those that are whinging about having to have a "chat" after 10 days off sick - what's the problem? If you are genuinely ill, I say again, what's the problem?

Or, perhaps I've hit the nail on the head.

Be ashamed, and ready to reap what you sowed - the lot of you!

Editted to add some context: The above may seem harsh, but that's the reality of Commercial Organisations (ones that will survive, anyway) in 2007. I say that as an employee of a Co. that has shed 15000 workers in the last 2 years (in the same timeframe, the share price has doubled!). No one likes it, but get used to it!

[bushbolox]

Cervix,
Just saying what i see. Individual personnal qualifications irrelevant to, or in excess of, the the ones reqd do not make it a skilled job but lets not get further down that lane.It wasnt a dig just a fact.
All you have to do is read that letter. The first thing that will leap out to the casual joe public will be the pathetic nature of claims like " Gatwick breakfast" or staff busses and the like. As for keeping positions to ensure promotion , well, doesnt that smack of the miners or an African parastatal company or the militant seventies in general.
The complexities of crew life will mean nothing to someone who will view the demands in the context of their own existance.They will probably come to the conclusion that you are all primma donnas who have screwed up their day for a free breakfast. = No support.
Speedmarque,
It is other peoples business if you disrupt their lives and want support to do it. You have just managed to convey in that last post a written manifestation of a piss poor arrogant attitude noticable in many BA cabin staff on duty.
Its not jealously that motivates people to point out the faults in your arguement but it does smack of a naked emperor with new clothes syndrome.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Bassa are in it for a privelaged few. The rest of you are screwed if you strike.

[Final 3 Greens]

WHAT A JOKE!!! I dont come to work just for the fun of it you know. Perhaps I should work for nothing just so you can all enjoy competetive fares.
As I said before there are some really silly responses by ignorant peolpe here, it makes me laugh! The fact of the matter is I NOR ANY OF MY COLLEAGES will give two hoots about all you armchair CEOs and your comments.
Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.
Stop the hate campaign against people you dont know, or know anything about. Its all getting a bit pathetic.

Well, that must a strong contender for the rant of the year award.

Maybe the poster might wish to consider the following
I need to book 10 sectors in the next few days, 8 in C, 2 in F.

Guess who won't be getting the business?

Then multiply that by a few 000 over the next month or two as there are many like me out there.

[Speedpig]

WHAT A JOKE!!! I dont come to work just for the fun of it you know. Perhaps I should work for nothing just so you can all enjoy competetive fares.
As I said before there are some really silly responses by ignorant peolpe here, it makes me laugh!:}
The fact of the matter is I NOR ANY OF MY COLLEAGES will give two hoots about all you armchair CEOs and your comments.
Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.
Stop the hate campaign against people you dont know, or know anything about.
Its all getting a bit pathetic.

And the silliest post of them all is this.
You have just lost any sympathy that any sensible reader on here may have had.

[atyourcervix73]

The complexities of crew life will mean nothing to someone who will view the demands in the context of their own existance
There bush, in one comment lies the essense as to why BASSA and the cabin crew must look out for themselves....and is also why your further comment
They will probably come to the conclusion that you are all primma donnas who have screwed up their day for a free breakfast. = No support.
has little relevance. This action is not designed to enamour public support, far from it in fact. (any idiot with any sense of history, and an ability to read can see that a strike that effects large numbers of the public can deduce that)It is a strike bourne out of frustration and alienation...of which the very public discontent it can create will go someway into putting pressure on WW to improve on the current situation.
As for all the arm-chair CEO's out there, I for one don't believe WW will dismiss 1 member of CC staff...because given the level of support expressed for action, he will effectively destroy the business.
You have just managed to convey in that last post a written manifestation of a piss poor arrogant attitude noticable in many BA cabin staff on duty
Not directed at me....but it gives a lie to you looking at this action with any sense of objectivity, good old CC bashing eh? or at best some of your own preconceptions based on a particular personal bias..and thats a fact.
Wake up and smell the coffee, Bassa are in it for a privelaged few.
Smells more and more like a management comment:yuk:

[Sigmond]

I think its quite obvious that there will be no public support for the crew if a strike does go ahead, and I think most crew are praying for a negotiated settlement, BUT the unions are stupidly pushing ahead with outrageous demands thinking they have the 96% behind them. Oops!:eek:

[Litebulbs]

People need to look at themselves. Imagine that you went home from work on Friday on one set of terms and conditions. On going back to work on Monday, you were informed that, although you have been received these terms and conditions for some time, they were now felt to be too generous, so they must be reduced.

We as a human race should be striving to work less and get paid more, not the other way round. I am very sure someone will benefit greatly from squeezing employee resource, but I can honestly say, it will be a chalk striped City type on a six figure bonus, not someone flying off on a longhaul night flight. It is these very people you should be directing the growing cost of flying to. They want to fly in absolute luxury and be served by happy smiling people. Make them pay that little bit more and allow the person serving them maintain their benefits

As I have said before, my company have been in negotiations (4 years) to get a curtain put round a couple of seats at the back of our longhaul jets to allow crew to sit down for 1/2hr of privacy, that doesn't involve sitting oon a bar box in a busy galley. My company is wrong; BA current terms and conditions are not wrong.

I fear for the day when one of my colleagues drives home from an exausting duty, has a crash and dies.

[Carnage Matey!]

Are they hiring off the street yet?

Man you seem desperate to join BA. You should keep your eye on this site (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/baweb1/?newms=info42).

[Hotel Mode]

BA ARE NOT TRYING TO REDUCE THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS

The only references to terms and conditions in the ballot are BASSA's who want an increase for newer crew.

BA MAY try to reduce terms and conditions in the future but that is not what this ballot is about although BASSA have cleverly made most people think that it is

[fantom]

Litebulbs' opinion is moderate and considered.
I wish he and his colleagues enjoyed terms and conditions which Big Airways' ones do.
Some day...

[overstress]

Cytherea: we no longer use BA Long Haul because of the service received in Club World or First you said.

I work for BA (not cabin crew) and I am genuinely concerned at this statement - could you elaborate slightly? Please pm me if you don't think it would contribute to the debate.

It's people like you whom BA should be devoutly persuing as customers!

[TopBunk]

I fear for the day when one of my colleagues drives home from an exausting duty, has a crash and dies.


So that explains why BASSA insist that cabin crew after an 6 hour Atlantic crossing insist that the cabin crew who have had at least 1:30 in the bunk have to be taken to their hotel before the pilots who have had no rest can be taken to the car park before travelling home. Or that the non-UK cabin crew (eg SIN,HKG, etc based) must be taken to the hotel after the crew are dropped off at the car park?

Pot, kettle, black....

I sincerely hope that BASSA get kicked in the boll0cks over this bunch of sh1t, they deserve everything they have coming to them. They are even more despicable than the Labour Party, and that says something.

Having said that, the BA 'management' team deserve a bloody nose also, they are arrogant ******s who know the value of nothing and the cost of everything (except themselves).

[CFC]

Topslide 6 - "alot of BA crew are on a VERY cushy number" - do you believe everything you read. Are you a Daily Mail reader? Have you not also read all the sarcastic/ patronising/jealous and downright rude comments about BA crew....what a shame people do not mention that the world's most profitable airline has the world's best cabin crew - even with bully boy management tactics pressurising us.
Sigmond - "No public support" - you have got to be kidding. Since the latest troubles have now hit the travelling public I have heard nothing but support from our BA pax - and many of them Gold/ Silver exec club members who realise what direction WW is pushing us.
overstress - (obviously not BA management with that title) get a life. For the last year we as crew have heard nothing but complaints from pax in all classes. I've now given up passing back their comments as nobody listens to us from the frontline. eg have just completed SIN - LHR...flt time 14.35 (duty day 17.05 but thats irrelevant)...our WT and WT+ pax got a hot meal ex SIN and then some 10 hours later their 2nd meal into LHR - a croissant and a chocolate muffin. The vegetarian pax were lucky...they got a small bowl of dried mangos and 4 bread rolls. Complaints....hundreds of them. Never mind that, also zero clean blankets (had to use used inbound re folded) or the lack of menus in First and Club, the many IFE defects, etc,etc.:}
This is real life on the frontline.I could go on but will rant on too long ...and this is exactly why cabin crew have had enough of the lies and terrible management over the last few years.
I need a glass of wine !

[Litebulbs]

Hotel Mode
Yes they are.
EG300 should not be used in the style of the Spanish Inquisition. I have sat at redundany meetings having employees fighting for their survival discussing problems like cervical cancer and whether it should be concidered or discounted on a matrix of sickness weighting. This is totally unacceptable. Having to justify why you are sick, regardless of a produced doctors note is wrong.
Generally, peer pressure stops people throwing sickies. Find a way of utilising that to cut down the amount taken, would be the avenue that I would take. I have not been sick for three years. For the year before that, I went sick numerous times. I had a change in my life that was the cause of that. Who is to say that that may not happen again? Does that make me a bad employee?
So, taking a payment for the introduction of a policy, does not waive your basic human rights of being treated compassionately and fairly.

[CFC]

TopBunk - This 'agreement' came in when Back to Backs were imposed onto crew by Marshall & King. We all (the whole crew) had to go direct to the hotel and stay there - no getout clause...thats why it is still in place.

A bit like you being able to sit/ eat/sleep in a First Class seat that most cabin crew find unbelievable amongst full fare pax...are you willing to give up your agreement?? ...I don't think so.

[bushbolox]

Cervix,
CC bashing? No
BA cc bashing .YES
25 yrs in the business yes
Manager NO
Misconceptions..Posssibly, but derived from personnal experience , so how many more are there with the same misconceptions.
You're on a hiding to nothing and if i was so anti cc i wouldnt be married to a psr.
You just dont get it. Some of your grievances come across as pathetic. The the sickness thing being administered in a draconian way may be valid, but many people here, including myself, are arguing from a position of being in the industry and so your moaning about down route reports, crew breakfast etc is just fecking tedious and jurassic. You cant bull**** a bull****ter. Next youll be telling me the CSD has more authority than the captain. ....as if:ok:
Take the time to break down the responses in this thread statistically. Factor that for the gen pop and theres your answer. You are part of a an outdated system. Instead of enjoying the fruits of that system you are about to **** it up by following dated militant fools to unenployment. This is ww's defining moment. He wont lose. The airline can replace cabin staff more easily than pilots. Thats why ww is taking you on instead of the pilots and as such your unions policies are reckless. You just dont have the cohesion.
Anyway , on a personnal level,good luck whatever the outcome.
Nothing else to say. Lets wait and see.

[atyourcervix73]

Bush,
Have a look at my profile good sir, then perhaps you may revisit what you THINK I do, or indeed who I am.

I too am married to CC, and I too have over 2 decades in this industry, but unlike you, I would rather loyal and hardworking employee's be treated with dignity and respect, instead of being treated with thinly disguised contempt and derision.

I agree with you regarding the perceived ease of replacing cabin crew, however, WW has no stomach or ability to replace even 5% of those who take industrial action (his CC training Dept has been cut to bits in recent years), quite simply his company is in a tedious position. Investor support will evaporate should the industrial crisis get worse (baggage handlers, ground staff, and franchise issues) not to mention a quickly shrinking customer base fed up with constant disruption.

Add all these factors up, and it is clear to see WW has more to consider than just continuity of BASSA's industrial approach.

I suspect BA viewed a 96% ballot, as a potential worst case...my sources suggest they were expecting around 55%, I know New Road didn't expect the levels to be this high.

[Carnage Matey!]

TopBunk - This 'agreement' came in when Back to Backs were imposed onto crew by Marshall & King. We all (the whole crew) had to go direct to the hotel and stay there - no getout clause...thats why it is still in place.
A bit like you being able to sit/ eat/sleep in a First Class seat that most cabin crew find unbelievable amongst full fare pax...are you willing to give up your agreement?? ...I don't think so.
Most cabin crew find it unbelievable that the Captain is in command of the aircraft and not the CSD, hence their disbelief at that. I wouldn't even call it an agreement, its simply the fact that the Captain can go anywhere he likes on his own aircraft. Can you imagine a commercial ship in which their were 'no-go' areas for the Captain or First Officer?
Your defence of the B2B bus is rather feeble. Are you seriously saying that because the agreement was imposed over 10 years ago you are unable to change it? It could be changed at a stroke tomorrow but BASSA don't want it too, in no small part because it needles the flight crew, which is the favourite sport of the reps. Its like WW said to the press yesterday, BASSAs attitude is "We hold what we have" and their is no room for compromise or common sense.
WW has no stomach or ability to replace even 5% of those who take industrial action (his CC training Dept has been cut to bits in recent years),
Max 5000 strikers. 5% = 250. No more than an average days sickness. They could be easily and quickly replaced. We have trained cabin crew in two weeks recently, it can be done again.

[Litebulbs]

The thing is Mr Carnage, its the pilots who are next. The aircraft have had the ability to takeoff, cruise and land for the last 30 years. I have yet to see any robot serving anybody, whether at Asda or the Ritz. Pilots now sit behind a locked door, cabin crew engage passengers every day that they work. The day it is proven that statistically, automation is safer than human, then its bye bye Captain.

I mean, if computers were worse than humans, then why do they land jets in fog, not Captains?

No matter the level of automation, I would want a pilot, preferably two, in the flight deck as well as any amount of computers. Not just system monitors, but the best money can buy!

[Fargoo]

Bit of thread drift but don't count your chickens litebulbs.
I get my lunch from a sandwich machince and coffee from a Clix machine, even some of my spares are from an automated vending machine.
Just need arming mechanisms for the doors controlled by the flight crew and a couple of vending machines and things could change on-board!!
A simplistic view I know but no more simplistic than your view of automation in the flight deck.
Fargoo :ok:

[Carnage Matey!]

You may be surprised by this but aircraft have had the ability to take off, cruise and land since the very earliest days of flight. Generally you need all three to make a succesful flight. Perhaps you meant it could be done automatically? Well apart from the fact that no commercial aircraft can take off automatically and less than 5% of the worlds runways are equipped for automatic landing, I've yet to see a computer that could make a decision. Sure they can follow a plan, but what happens when that plan changes? Errrr, errrrrmmmm.:hmm:
The reason computers land jets in fog is because the Captain can't see. Take away any of the numerous 'eyes' of the computers and they can't see either, so who lands it then?

[Litebulbs]

Fargoo

That would be self service then, hardly a first class service. It doesn't matter how the jet gets to its destination, as long as it does, but I do know, when I want a special night out, I have a human interaction, good food, good service. I generally do take friends and family to a vending machine.

It was not meant as a drift, but more of a statement that it will be pilots next.

[Carnage Matey!]

It doesn't matter how the jet gets to its destination, as long as it does, but I do know, when I want a special night out, I have a human interaction, good food, good service.

Is your special night out ever interrupted by your venue flying through a cumulonimbus, violently hurling you and your friends from floor to ceiling and back again?

[atyourcervix73]

Carnage
Max 5000 strikers. 5% = 250. No more than an average days sickness. They could be easily and quickly replaced. We have trained cabin crew in two weeks recently, it can be done again.

You are dreaming sunshine, the company struggle to train 250 in 3 months, and dont forget, what does willy do after he sacks 250?and it doesn't work....fire another 250?

The stuff you're smoking is bad for your thought process:hmm:

[great expectations]

Does anyone know what the outcome of the talks today were??
And what exactly are the chances of the company resolving this?

I support all our staff and front line crew in any stance they take. Banks in the city provide all sorts of lifestyle amenities for their traders and brokers - they realise that their assets are the people. I don't intend to ever be seen as a corporate commodity that can be reduced in value at the company's whim and nor do I think my colleagues are deserving of that treatment.

I'm highly qualified, as are many other pilots and cab crew - and can easily work anywhere else. The prevailing attitude of management shocks me every day and we all would do well to remember that we aren't to be compared with the lowest denominator in the industry; we were leaders and as such any comparison with LoCos isnt relevant.

Personally, being young as many of us are, I would rather be at the beginning of something great than at the end.. and there are many dynamic companies and options for anyone with half a brain. Which explains why our managers cling so hard to BA.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Carnage.

Your understanding of points 1 - 12 shows that you have not researched the issues, and in all fairness, why would you have?

The one that really gets me (as you probably know) is 12. But I can assure you it's not just a case of small print.

One thing that might interest our customers reading this hoping to find out some real info on their doomed holiday.

The LGW crew community will probably NOT strike, as the vast majority are NOT in either union or in AMICUS (not striking). If all the BASSA crew stirke at LGW (about 150, 10% of the workforce) the operation should still run. However a I know a few BASSA people who voted NO, and if forced to strike will switch unions.

So see you all at LGW!

[Carnage Matey!]

Shadows I'm copied in on all the BASSA emails and newsletters I've researched the 12 issues a lot better than many of the people who voted yes judging by some of my recent crews. Loved that diary of a stewardess, a piece of childrens fiction Enid Blyton would have been proud of.:D

[BlueQ]

I wouldn't even call it an agreement, its simply the fact that the Captain can go anywhere he likes on his own aircraft. Can you imagine a commercial ship in which their were 'no-go' areas for the Captain or First Officer?


Hi Carnage Matey! Are you trying to imply that we can do what we want?:} We all work for a company and we have to adhere to the guidelines/rules etc. As a pilot, most of your day is spent thinking inside a box. :ugh: It's not the captain's aircraft, it's the company's, and it's not up to the captain to decide what s/he can do onboard. These things are dictated by the company. If, for example, the company decides even something as simple as forbidding crew from chewing gum while onboard, the captain is not allowed to decide that s/he will chew gum. If it were agreed that crew could take rest in Club but not First then a crew member (captain or otherwise) couldn't just decide to ignore that and sit in First stating "it's my aircraft". You know your above statement was ridic. :)

[Flying Lawyer]

AMICUS (not striking).

I noticed that.
It's interesting because the letter at post #179 (with the names blanked out for some reason) is a letter dated 15 December 2006 from the 'Amicus Cabin Crew Committee' to its own members, and copied to Bassa members for information.

Is the Amicus approach negotiation rather than confrontation?

[Carnage Matey!]

Hi Carnage Matey! Are you trying to imply that we can do what we want?:} We all work for a company and we have to adhere to the guidelines/rules etc. As a pilot, most of your day is spent thinking inside a box. :ugh: It's not the captain's aircraft, it's the company's, and it's not up to the captain to decide what s/he can do onboard. These things are dictated by the company. If, for example, the company decides even something as simple as forbidding crew from chewing gum while onboard, the captain is not allowed to decide that s/he will chew gum. If it were agreed that crew could take rest in Club but not First then a crew member (captain or otherwise) couldn't just decide to ignore that and sit in First stating "it's my aircraft". You know your above statement was ridic. :)

Clearly you are cabin crew BlueQ and so can be forgiven for knowing very little about aviation law. The captain is the legal commander of the aircraft and has the authority to do anything he likes within the law on board. Just like he has the authority to instruct you to do things and as a crew member you must obey all his lawful commands. The companys rules do not override the law. Fortunately in BA the company still recognise that in the air the captain is the boss, which is why they do not object to flight crew wandering around the aircraft, discretely resting in first class or chewing gum and they formulate their rules around the captains authority as the commander. It might not be wise to contravene FCOs, but fortunately as they are written by professionals its is very rare that that would be necessary.

PS If you are BA cabin crew I suggest you open your copy of FCOs and see whose name is in the front (no, not yours). Then find out who he is and what he does.

[eidah]

ham phisted

my eurofleet roster for jan = 42 sectors this is average
my take home will be for jan, £1500
my rolling flight hours for the year, over 800
the number of times i was given a non op from available in december, 6
the number of times i tried to get those availables filled so i could earn a living wage, countless
your attitude, priceless!
:ugh:
1-2-1 is the excpetion, not the norm

I have friends working for a low cost carrier ther current sectors average 64 a month and they are not comming home with nearly that amount around 900-1100stg depending on commision so i feel in BA you do have it pretty good

[Litebulbs]

Captain Carnage

Top last post! Oh you are a little devil. I could just imagine myself 15 years ago rising to that one!

[XL5]

Litebulbs:We as a human race should be striving to work less and get paid more, not the other way round.

Exactly, participation in a race to the bottom isn't a done deal. The first world isn't obligated to work to the terms of the third whether it be referenced to Flight or Cabin Crew. Possibly a watershed in all this, who rules, who gains? The shareholder or the employee?

As for public opinion, when a company can be toppled by disgruntled employees public opinion is irrelevant and counts for nothing. Do you think the public supports GPs on six figures? They don't, but GPs still pull it.

[wiggy]

Litebulbs
I know Carnage M can be a bit extreme ;) but he has a point, some of your colleagues have a fairly strange idea of how the Management chain, no, lets be brave and call it the Chain of Command, functions when we are all at work ( and that's not just when they are on the aircraft). In a nutshell, the skipper is the boss, period. That's cos the Law says so (for the in flight period) , it's also because the Company, your employer says so in FCO's. Problem is some of your colleagues have never read the "blue book" or doesn't think it applies to them, so we get whinges like:

Q: " Why did the Captain interfere when I was having an argument with the US Immigration Officer"?
A: Because FCOs ( and the Law) require that the Captain ensure's that all Customs and Immigration formalities are complied with - it's in FCO's ( and also because I'm not prepared to be locked up because one of your colleagues wants to be a prat).

Q: " The Captain let the Co-Pilot take his rest in First".
A: Yes he did, because he is allowed to, it's in FCOs.

All I ask as an 'Aircraft Commander" :} is that we all try to read in full and sing from, the same hymn sheet, instead of using the version Galley FM has come up with..and of course attend the post flight debrief for all Crewmembers..that's in FCO's as well ....I find the bar usually provides a suitable enviroment :ok:

Back to the point :ooh: Despite my above diatribe I wish you well in your Current Campaign, the idea of management having unbridled power to do as they wish with the employees of BA doesn't bear thinking about.

[CFC]

I have friends working for a low cost carrier ther current sectors average 64 a month and they are not comming home with nearly that amount around 900-1100stg depending on commision so i feel in BA you do have it pretty good
Maybe you should be thinking that BA sets the norm and your friends are are being financially abused by their employers....
Much is said about earnings on this thread .... a truly British gift of bringing all down to the lowest common denominator.:uhoh:

[Final 3 Greens]

XL5 you say As for public opinion, when a company can be toppled by disgruntled employees public opinion is irrelevant and counts for nothing.

You are soooo wrong.

Public opinion impacts directly on ticket sales.

Yes, disgruntled employees can topple a company and so can many other factors, remember BCal, Dan Air, Pan Am, Air Europe, Air UK etc .... all companies I flew with in the past, who are no longer around.

But I still fly and other companies have taken over.

You cite GPs, but that is an illogical comparison, since GPs have a state imposed monopoly.

I am on no side other than my own in this dispute and will not consider taking any BA flights until the risk of disruption is gone.

If you all (staff and management) wish to commit mutual commercial suicide, that's your choice, but customers also have a choice and public opinion should not be dismissed as lightyl as you dismiss it.

[old,not bold]

[quote=Carnage Matey!;3074916]The captain is the legal commander of the aircraft and has the authority to do anything he likes within the law on board.

Now I know how Captains earn their pay; it's writing their own Flight Ops Manuals. Who needs one written by the Company, when you can do what you like...... "within the law"?

[overstress]

writing their own Flight Ops Manuals. Who needs one written by the Company, when you can do what you like...... "within the law"?

a strange interpretation of what CM said!

[Litebulbs]

Wiggy

I absolutely agree that the Captain is boss. That doesn't make that Captain a good boss though. The ability to fly a plane does not go hand in hand with the ability to manage a team.

[brakedwell]

Wiggy
I absolutely agree that the Captain is boss. That doesn't make that Captain a good boss though. The ability to fly a plane does not go hand in hand with the ability to manage a team.
A sweeping statement which sounds like sour grapes, or did you mean to say: The ability to fly a plane does not NECESSARILY go hand in hand with the ability to manage a team.

[Litebulbs]

Brakedwell

You are absoultely correct, NECESSARILY, should be there, (maybe my ability to spell the work caused the exclusion). No sour grapes as I am neither a pilot or cabin crew, but engage with both groups every day at work.

My apologies

[peanutgallery]

Hi,

I am copying a question from another forum that I hope someone here can respond to. The answer would have a significant impact on the flight plans of many.

...if there was to be a strike on say 30th Jan, then would it be obligatory to give notice 7 days prior on 23rd Jan...

Or does the fact that the announcement was made on 15th Jan, gives staff permission to strike anytime after 22nd Jan (and within 28 days of 15th Jan), without giving a further 7 days notice prior to the start of the actual strike date.In effect, has notice been given to strike yet, or does the 7 day waiting period still apply.

[Litebulbs]

Did I just get moderated?!

As I said in a missing post, I fully support BASSA in their actions. I feel that BA flight deck should support this action as it may be them at some time in the future, due to technology changes, hence the posts. If people don't see it this way ignore the posts, or better still, delete them!

[411A]

Yep, as described previously, absolute, while in charge of the airplane, and this extends to after duty times as well, such as while in immigration at outstations.
I suppose that a few 'law unto themselves' CC, believing that their union can bring havoc to an airline with their malcontent ideas, really can't see the light, and this would absolutely be quite typical of this sort.
Also, I'm quite sure that BA will impose their will on these malcontents, union or not.
I suspect that WW has the full support of the shareholders, who quite understand that CC have to be brought into line in todays low-cost environment.
Yep, the glory days are over folks, especially for CC...get used to it.:ugh:

If I were WW, I would have quietly begun hiring replacements months ago, in anticipation of 'problems' from CC...hey, maybe he did.:E

[BlueQ]

Hi Carnage Matey!

Thanks for your reply. In actual fact, you know the truth is much more balanced than the extremist view stated in your response.

If a captain, for example, always orders the IFE to remain switched off all flight, then everyone must comply with this as the captain has the ultimate say (basically your argument, not contradicted by me).

The company doesn't employ captains to decide that the IFE must remain switched off all flight for no apparent reason. If a captain were found to be giving this order on their flights, the company would challenge this. The captain works for their employer has to do their best for the company (obvious; stated by me and surely not contradicted by you...?).

On your next flight, why don't you try giving the order that the IFE must remain switched off as you would like to take the opportunity to tell racist jokes over the PA. Hum... you're the boss, right?

Happy flying
BlueQ

[Rainboe]

You're trying to make some esoteric point that I don't think anybody understands. If the Captain orders the IFE to remain off, off it will remain. If he cites lack of confidence in the system or requires less unnecessary electrical load, then that is that. He will be responsible for hs decisions as he would be if he told racist jokes on the PA- I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Can we bring the discussion back to some common sense? It's time the CC realised that they must be part of the real commercial world and realise what is going on outside will impact in BA. Many of the CC themselves appear to be unsure exactly why they are going to be striking- this is going to be a humiliating failure, announced as a 'glorious' victory by the strike leaders as people come in like sheep to work rather than lose their jobs and staff travel!

[Ancient Observer]

er, excuse me, but isn't all this input about who is in charge of what something of a diversion?
The law is nice and simple....the Captain is in charge. Whlist that does make them think that they are gods in some cases, the good ones do try to creat a positive culture.
Now, can we get back to the revolting CC stories?
thanks

[kaikohe76]

In all this current mess, there seems to be very little mention of a rather important aspect, THE PASSENGERS!!. The very people who by paying their fare, are effectively paying the salaries of all the BA personnel, Aircrew & the rest.

I can not comment on the merits of any possible strike, but do not forget the passengers folks in all this, there are alternative carriers you know!

[OzzieO]

The passenger is probably not mentioned in all of this because it is abundantly obvious and crystal clear that they will be the ones inconvenienced!

[antic81]

Hey there

I was giving the good ol' Sun a read as there was nothing better laying about, ok, in fact there was nothing else laying about at all, anyway great article in there on page eleven, this guy obviously knows what he's talking about!:ugh:

For those lucky enough not to have stumbled apon this gem, on the proposed BA CC strike he surmises that not only are cc not needed, but neither are "co-pilots",because as he puts it "co-pilots don't actually do anything except talk about their golf swing" and goes on to suggest that they act as cc.

Wonderful enlightening piece that completely re-ignites my love for Jounalists!:{

Thought I would share the love!:}

[EGLD]

In all this current mess, there seems to be very little mention of a rather important aspect, THE PASSENGERS!!. The very people who by paying their fare, are effectively paying the salaries of all the BA personnel, Aircrew & the rest.
I can not comment on the merits of any possible strike, but do not forget the passengers folks in all this, there are alternative carriers you know!
After witnessing the frankly disgusting response to the strike vote, I will never fly this tinpot airline again
http://www.dirkgently1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/strike.jpg

[Andy_S]

It makes you think, doesn't it.
Is this the reaction of a group of people who are reluctantly taking industrial action, knowing that it could be extremely damaging to their employer, after all other possibilities have been exhausted?
Or are they just spoiling for a scrap?

[BlueQ]

I think Carnage Matey! et al understand where I'm coming from. I haven't made any postings regarding what CM has said in relation to the strike as I think CM has very informed views of the situation. I tend to agree with most unemotional, factual things CM posts.


Regards
BlueQ

[CFC]

After witnessing the frankly disgusting response to the strike vote, I will never fly this tinpot airline again
http://www.dirkgently1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/strike.jpg
EGLD - maybe what you are witnessing are some very brave people about to take on the ego's of certain people in Waterworld and its just an outpouring of relief by one and all that thay are all thinking on the same lines.
At least the cabin crew of this "tinpot airline" have balls...and that includes the girls!

[apaddyinuk]

Im going to gracefully bow out of this debate me thinks. Far too many know it alls and american attitudes. Thank god I live in a real democracy where by people have the right to stand up and defend their way of life and resist bending over and taking it up the trap all in the name of capitalism! Even if things do change and we lose...at least we can say we went down fighting!

We should know tomorrow if there actually will be a strike. Sorry many of you feel that BA crew are all spoilt and crap at our jobs, clearly your opinion will not be swayed away from that.

Gas thing is I remember similiar responses about the EI crew so Im not particularly bothered!

And to the passengers...again apologies if anything happens. But dont attack the crew, attack the managers....cos WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THEIR BULLYING!!!

[atyourcervix73]

The issues have been aired, the frustrations are now well understood, even if many of you on here prefer to take pot shots from a position of having VERY little to lose.

This comment
EGLD - maybe what you are witnessing are some very brave people about to take on the ego's of certain people in Waterworld and its just an outpouring of relief by one and all that thay are all thinking on the same lines.
At least the cabin crew of this "tinpot airline" have balls...and that includes the girls!

Sums it all up eloquently.

[MNT]

EGLD - maybe what you are witnessing are some very brave people about to take on the ego's of certain people in Waterworld and its just an outpouring of relief by one and all that thay are all thinking on the same lines.
At least the cabin crew of this "tinpot airline" have balls...and that includes the girls!

Its not brave its foolish in my experience (admittedly in another industry) strikes never achieve anything. Both sides claim victory and its the long term future of the comany & employees that suffers in the end. BA and its employees already have a poor reputation in the UK this will only make things worse. So I cannot understand anybody celebrating this vote, it will end in tears.