BA Cabin Crew Strike Threat

[The Blu Riband]

aycervix
I find the vast majority of my colleagues, in either seat, to be particularly intelligent, generous and open people!

Nevertheless, after 18 years of flying with BA I can only say that whilst almost all cc are really nice and good company , the attitudes and demands from BASSA not only damage the well-being of their own members but are a major handicap to the rest of the airline and our pax.
The lies they have told in the past , and the lies they continue to tell, are terribly divisive. They are the main reason there is often bad feeling between the cc and pilots; and animosity and mistrust towards the management.

Unfortunately most crew will not even read anything published by BA yet - bizarrely - believe everything BASSA write.

Personally I have flown with several new guys recently and am instinctively more cautious both personally and operationally. Is there a particular reason that you clash often? If you are really finding frequent difficulties with Capts then perhaps you should question your approach as I have not encountered a bad atmosphere for years!!

Will our cc really strike for these issues; will they compromise?
How far will ww go? If they push him too far surely he will have no choice but to fight them all the way; which would be crazy for BA crew because they are well paid - especially the pre 97 crew - and actually have great conditions compared to other uk airlines

[Wiggly Bob]

I have been watching this post with interest for the last few days / weeks. As a Professional Buyer whose responsibility includes employee travel. I feel compelled to put forward my feelings.

The main objective of my responsiblities is to guarantee security of supply to our production facilities around the globe, be this boxes, stainless steel or services such as travel for employees. At the moment, in order to gaurantee the my companies employees are in the right place at the right time, I am having to avoid BA as one of our carriers of choice. Explaining to my Purchasing Director that again travel plans are having to be rearranged to accommodate the foolish actions of BA staff is getting to be a bit tedious. It seems to be a recurring and repetitive issue which gives me, my employer and possibly the general travelling puplic as a whole, the impression that BA is staffed by petulent school children.

As has already been pointed out negotiations are give and take, and from my point of view it seems just take, take, take. Blaming WW for everything seems pretty arrogant to me. "Takes two to tango" as they say.

However, on a more positive note, thanks to this industrial action, my profile has been greatly improved with my colleages! You see, having to tell an employee that he is no longer travelling with BA but will now be aboard an Emirates flight brings a smile to their faces!! Most of my colleages regard BA and it's CC with the contempt it deserves. It's no longer a "Premium Quality Airline" with "High Quality Service". I won't post some of our engineers harsh comments about the standard (looks) of the CC themselves as this post is about BA and not people in particular. As far as I can see WW has a long way to go and good luck to him trying to change a tired old dog (airline, not Trolley Dolly) into what it once was.

"Worlds Favourite Airline", my a**e.

Regards

[Wycombe]

Way back I also posted from a Customer perspective, re. a forthcoming trip and how the planned strikes were likely to disrupt our half-term travel plans.

Well, they have, as the 14th (our original return day) is now a potential strike day.

Having spent some time talking to BA Reservations yesterday (and hanging on the line, but I'm not going to moan about that as they must be very busy ;) ) I can only say that I was dealt with very efficiently and our return flights have been changed to the following day free of charge (although of course you've cost me an extra nights hotac) - I took the precaution of requesting the second flight back, in case the night-stopper doesn't operate out on the 14th :ok:

Those of you about to take the action should be very grateful to your colleagues in Customer Services for the good job they are doing (at least based on my experience) to sort out the mess you've created.

I expect they earn a lot less than a lot of you aswell :mad:

[MMSOBGYTAST]

Go for it guys and girls.

Great for EK. Strike as long as you like.:E

[DarkStar]

Oh how sad you are DarkStar.
What do you intend to achieve by your pathetic comments?
Assuming your are Flt Crew, this makes it very obvious to all readers just what CC have to put up with from some of our colleagues. Pls refer to earlier posts on this thread in which some Flt Crew just cannot understand how the bitterness exists between some CC and FC.

CFC, yes pointy end, but so what? I asked you how CC colleagues can go sick on a BOM knowing they will stitch up their 'fellow' CC on Stby? You have not answered this - please do!

[atyourcervix73]

Personally I have flown with several new guys recently and am instinctively more cautious both personally and operationally. Is there a particular reason that you clash often? If you are really finding frequent difficulties with Capts then perhaps you should question your approach as I have not encountered a bad atmosphere for years!!

Blu, my comment was "a significant minority" and I was honest enough to ask if this was representative..in a rhetorical fashion. As a point of fact, my experience is broadly similar to yours..although nowhere near as extensive.

My point however is that a significant minority express these attitudes behind the closed door, they also happen to be the same significant minority who howl the loudest when an operational issue effects them negatively, or indeed when they can't find a space at compass on a weekend:rolleyes: Unfortunately, it seems that there exists a similar mindset amongst certain posters on here, which is why I am particularly vociferous in offering a counter view.

[TopBunk]

BASSA's latest refutal in detail of BA's position ......

IMPORTANT UPDATE 23rd January 2007

BASSA’s proposals for resolution of current industrial dispute.


We will always try to negotiate, right up to the 11th hour 59th minute. We will not give up trying but neither will we give up what we know to be right.

It is extremely unlikely now that we will be able to reach agreement on these issues. The progress made is simply nowhere near enough.

Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside in a responsible attempt to see if there was any possibility of resolving these issues through negotiation, even up to late last night.

For those of you who have never witnessed a major industrial negotiation, we felt you may be interested - and also it’s important to point out - that these are almost always done by a series of verbal exchanges across the table. Documents are never produced until the final stages and not until there is common ground between the two sides as the talks progress. Several drafts (there can number up to 50 versions) continue to be negotiated and then - and only then - if achieved, a final agreement document is produced.

Negotiation is never carried out by letter.

These talks produced a major change to this way of business and we allude to it in our latest update flyer. Despite there being NO common ground between us, British Airways management surprisingly arrived to the talks on Friday19th January with an extremely detailed and wordy letter. This contained what they believed to be not only their position but also more importantly, an extremely and deliberately distorted version of the position of BASSA.


More Dirty tricks?

Immediately we knew that this was the end of negotiation. They were not taking any of the issues seriously. This letter was not intended for us, it was to be leaked to the waiting media and the BA press office. It was an attempt to undermine the morale of crew in taking industrial action and in a cynical attempt to turn public mood against us, as crew, by trivialising our legitimate concerns. HOW ACCURATE OUR ASSUMPTION PROVED TO BE.

The most obvious example of this being the front page of yesterday’s - Toenail strike -Evening Standard. This was fed to them directly by the BA press office - we have the proof.

The irony should not be lost that in their letter they claim to “highly value” cabin crew. They then cynically mislead the press to cause public ridicule of these same “highly valued’ crew.


THESE ARE THE TACTICS OF A MANAGEMENT THAT PLACES LITTLE VALUE ON THE LOYALTY OF A DEDICATED AND HARDWORKING WORKFORCE. EXPECT MORE BAD PRESS…YOU WILL NOT NEED TO GUESS WHERE IT IS COMING FROM… WATERSIDE.

So, let us clarify the issues so you are in possession of the full facts as to why we are taking industrial action and to explain the issues we are fighting for on your behalf:


EG 300

This centres on the recognition that there are numerous conditions that could prevent you from flying when a ground-based person could easily continue to work. We demand recognition that flying is a unique environment with a unique impact upon health.

BA saves money by reducing the amount of fresh air circulated through the aircraft cabin. Humidifiers are also often deactivated for both passengers and cabin crew. This increases the risk of infection. They then punish crew for having higher sickness than an office clerk. The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level.

We are food handlers and safety professionals; the law places higher restrictions upon us.

BASSA’s position

We need a clear and defined list of recognised conditions that you cannot fly with that must be discounted from EG300.


Colds and flu with blocked ears - our eardrums can easily burst and our career ended.
Diarrhoea and vomiting - we are food handlers and cannot work by law.
Visible injury - we can’t work with plaster casts, slings, leg braces, disfigurement etc.
When BAHS has advised crew not to fly.
Broken limbs and one-off injuries.
Operations.
Cancer.
Severe emotional trauma through a life event - the death of a love one, victim of a violent crime etc.
Down route sickness.

Good sickness records should also be taken into account. We all get sick sometimes, that needs to be recognised and people helped not punished.

Flying Crew Orders must be amended to reflect this.

ARI’s need to be reduced. The right to representation acknowledged and when and where they occur agreed upon.

The process for “discounted sickness” to be made immediate and easier for crew through improved guidelines.

An appeals process for crew in the event of unfair treatment and/or decisions.

PURSER UPPER DECK 747

Simon Talling-Smith said that he isn’t going to impose this and yet we are still being told that they are going to do it at the first available opportunity.

BASSA’s position;

We can’t accept the removal of promotion opportunity coupled with the continuance of a discriminatory pay scale for post 1997 crew. It’s simply wrong.

DOWN ROUTE REPORT TIME

Management researched and acknowledged the legitimacy of our claim and said that to take into account the additional duty time to accommodate post September 11th security checks would cost an extra £6.2 million.

As a gesture of conciliation, BASSA agreed to give up our claim on this issue and use this cost instead towards improving the new entrant pay scales.

PENSIONS

Cabin Crew must have an option to buy back to their current position/retirement age of 55 through an increased contribution of 6.25%.

The current BA proposal states that ground staff can buy back to their current position for an extra 6.25%.

In BA’s latest pension proposals the buy back for Cabin Crew it is an additional 17.5%. Nearly 3 times the cost than for ground staff!

We must have the ability to move from NAPS1 to NAPS2 with no penalty on past contributions.

For main crew, if we don’t alter this proposal then you could be on a pension of approx £5,000 after 40 years of service. That is a poverty level pension by anybody’s standard. How will you live on that?

Crew have the lowest pensionable pay as a proportion of salary earned within our airline.

We need the reinstatement of medical pension provisions for Cabin Crew in line with pilots.

You should not be forced to work on the ground through ill health retirement unless a job can be found that is in reasonable commuting distance - 50 miles and one hour travel time from your home - at an according skill level and at a salary equivalent to your earnings as crew.

We had this until approximately 2 years ago until BA sponsored a move to remove it.

In 1997 part of the settlement was that BA agreed to look at a voluntary option to work beyond 55. They stated “no responsible employer could do this due to the known health risks of flying”. The also said that it would cost an extra £10 million per year in increased salary. Both these facts were repeated in court under oath at a subsequent tribunal.

They can’t have it both ways. If it costs £10 million to allow crew to work past 55, then if they retire at 55 they also save accordingly. We insist that this saving should be used to fund the ability for crew to have the option to retire at 55.

We also want guaranteed part-time opportunities to enable contract choice 5 years before your retirement choice date. This will also increase promotion opportunity.

SINGLE SUPERVISORY GRADE EUROFLEET

CSD X to be developed but with the maintenance of an agreed established figure of a minimum of 250.

FIXED LINKS EUROFLEET
We want savings to be used to create a standby payment of £20 per person per standby.

PREFERED DUTY FREE SELLER
We will never undermine your right to bid for your working position.

MAN - JFK

This route to be operated at LHR. We offered that LHR EF crew (volunteers only) would operate the above to create savings. BA insist this is an actual cost – funny that it is not a cost when they ask EF crew to operate other WW services.

LGW BREAKFAST ALLOWANCE

Hourly rate to be increased from £2.32 to £2.45 per hour.


900 HOURS

The law says you cannot fly above 900 hours; we want this to be honoured. Any “down time” to be made available to crew for rest and recuperation, as the law intended.

NEW STARTER RATES (POST '97)

We would like to clarify exactly where we are, especially in relation to the new starter rates.

One of the most important issues is new entrant pay and a clear and unequivocal joining of the two pay scales.

This remains at the top of our agenda. Due to the complexities involved and imminent industrial action, we told BA that as an immediate gesture of good will and a temporary fix, they should immediately add another 4 increments to the post 1997 pay scales. This would be a good foundation while talks continued to link the old and new scales.

£16,200
£17,000
£17,800
£18,600

We repeat the 4 increments was not a final position, merely a platform for further improvement. We hope that this reassures you. Indeed, as BA has now turned down even this basic request then that offer is now withdrawn.


In summary

Last Friday, we were quite shocked at BA’s response to our “list” as they aggressively rejected virtually everything amid a whirl of vitriol. We had costed it at around £10 - £11 million which, in the light of things, is surely not too much to ask for when resolving something as serious as industrial action. BA has since admitted that they handled things last Friday very badly and that their accountancy was “creative “ to say the least. Yet they still refuse to budge. We now believe that the issue is not about money but more a case of BA not wanting to admit they were wrong and not wanting to lose face.

This does rather sum up their style of management.

So the battle goes on. Please continue to place your trust in us; we will not let you down. Please do not listen to BA or Flight Deck propaganda.
Next Monday you will be participating in legal industrial action – you will not be sacked, have your contract changed etc, etc.

You are protected by the law. End of story!!!

Keep the faith. Don’t listen to rumour and be brave. We are all in this together - if negotiation fails then we will have no alternative but to see you on the picket line.

We are a democracy.

Any deal reached would have to be approved by you, our membership.

[Da Dog]

Sounds like something from George Orwell's Animal Farm:D :D

[wiggy]

oh flips sake BASSA, you can't even get basic facts straight so why the heck should anyone believe any of your statements
The flight deck does not have a :"self contained atmosphere with higher oxygen levels".

[Flying Lawyer]

atyourcervix73

IMHO, it’s a mistake to dismiss your colleagues who don’t support Bassa’s demands as “self-centered, utterly without compassion” etc. Should compassion extend to supporting demands they consider to be unreasonable and unrealistic?
The notion that ‘everyone should stand together and be supportive’ (even if they disagree with a particular group’s demands’) smacks of the sort of trade unionism which crippled this country a few decades ago. Surely we’ve moved on from that?

One thing which stands out to me as an outside observer of the discussion is that those who do not support Bassa have generally been much better informed, more logical in their arguments and accordingly more persuasive. (Carnage Matey and M.Mouse in particular have dealt with opposing arguments in detail instead of side-stepping them.) In contrast, those who support Bassa’s demands have largely been emotive and extremely ‘general’ rather than specific. eg Your recent post: “My other half ….. is prepared to stand her ground with her beliefs.....most of which relate to being treated with decency and respect.”

After no fewer than 168 posts, people on this thread still didn’t know what Bassa was actually demanding. One of the Moderators (Profile: Flight Attendant) intervened to ask if anyone could provide “a precise list of the specific BASSA demands and/or grievances behind this dispute (or a link to a site that does).” That produced a basic list of the demands, but we’re still rather short on arguments in support each of those demands. The pro-Bassa posters have been very reluctant to be drawn into the specifics. Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support? Or they fear the arguments will not bear scrutiny?

Bassa wants BA to abandon a plan to reduce the number of Pursers. Surely we’ve moved on from the “2 jobs when one will do” mentality? The notion that if BA do that they should (as some have suggested) increase pay to compensate seems to me to be bizarre when the objective of the proposal is to reduce unnecessary supervisory positions and thereby reduce the overall wages bill.

I don't doubt that EG300 may cause distress on occasions, but is it seriously suggested that BA should return to the ridiculously high sickness rates when people went sick to watch major sporting events or when they were rostered for destinations where they earned less money?

Questions about what BA CC actually earn were dismissed with variations of (quote) “Its none of your business what we earn, what we ask for, and what we get.”
Comparisons with CC earnings in other UK airlines earn were dismissed (including by you) as irrelevant – “utterly different organisations”. Virgin?
Today ordinary crew can earn a maximum £27,373. Those promoted to pursers can earn £47,900, while a cabin services director can make £54,500. While this is at the top end of pay rates for the industry, it is less than can be earned by those that joined BA before 1997.
If those figures are remotely accurate, is it surprising that many people (in and out of the industry) don’t regard that as being underpaid?

____________________________

Well, one of my questions has been answered while I was writing: "Is that because many of those who voted to strike don’t actually know the detail of the demands, or the arguments in support?"

BASSA:
Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside .......

Isn't it normal (and desirable) to have clear proposals set out in writing for members to consider before inviting them to vote for a strike? :confused:


.

[CFC]

CFC, yes pointy end, but so what? I asked you how CC colleagues can go sick on a BOM knowing they will stitch up their 'fellow' CC on Stby? You have not answered this - please do!

You are very good on forums - are'nt you DarkStar?

Can you supply facts and figures to support your comment re CC sickness "on a BOM".

Amazingly on my DEL that left Xmas eve, returning Boxing day we had one no-show out of 16 CC - that one person stuck in traffic, so I and many others would like to hear your story.

[tristar2]

eh no it doesn't.

it sums up my attitude.

the proposed cc strike is about cc wanting more when all other groups are giving. it's about an already over-paid and over-pampered group feeling that they deserve more.

Pot calling kettle black.Flight crew are just as over paid and over pampered.You get someone bringing a free meal during the flight and drinks when you ask,you get the best accomodation on night stops,chauffer driven to/from the hotels and the aircraft.And you get next to no customer contact.have you ever taken a moment to think about the lesser paid and well pampered staff who do all the hard work on the ground during disruption,severe weather and the peak travel periods.we take all the abuse when things are going wrong yet we get no thanks for it or any meals provided/refreshments provided.isn't it interesting that the flight crew have forgotten this fact now that they have managed to get there nice we deal sorted out with WW.They were all for taking strike action as well but now these people are harder to find than Osama Bin Laden.There complaints have gone and they seem to be not as willing to criticize te company.This lovely deal has pretty much confirmed the fact that over 1000 people will now lse there jobs in MAN/GLA/EDI.so well done for that.
"Plodding Along" you are just as narrow minded as "the heavy heavy".,Flight Crew are just as bad at deciding that they are not going to fly even though they'll only be slightly out of hours.one instance of fc flexibilty was a crew positioning n to operate out the next day were on a flight that was only delayed by 30 mins but they insisted that the morning service they were operating be delayed ecause of the times from chalk to chalk.now correct me if i'm wrong but they had just sat on their a***s for the whole time more than likely sleeping so how can you justify the delay to the high fare paying business passengers of that morning flight.

"Blu Riband" BA has constantly lied to many of the staff and when gimps like WW go to the media and say they are willing to talk but the unions aren't turning the public against staff it really is taking the p***.WW did this at EI and just about ruined it and we're meant to stand back an let him do the same to this company.get real. Flight crew managed to get there pension deal sorted and BA announced that it had sorted out the company wide pension problem but it is becoming more apparent that it was bulls**t.The cabin crew and ground staff have been shafted yet again and it wouldn't surprise me if the cabin crew are joined soon by the ground staff.

[atyourcervix73]

IMHO, it’s a mistake to dismiss your colleagues who don’t support Bassa’s demands as “self-centered, utterly without compassion” etc. Should compassion extend to supporting demands they consider to be unreasonable and unrealistic?

Flying Lawyer....

At no stage was it my intention to dismiss fellow colleagues who have a different viewpoint, indeed, I asked in a rhetorical fashion if the "self-centered, utterly without compassion" attitudes I have witnessed were representative.

However, in light of some the comments of messers Mouse and Carnage it is important to consider that they represent their views..as I do mine.
What is quite clear, is that certain sections of BA flightcrew view ANY difference of opinion with BA management that can potentially effect or delay their own industrial position is unreasonable. If the shoe were on the other foot perhaps? I wonder......:hmm:

It would also be wrong of me to sit here and suggest that BASSA have operated without exaggeration or spin, however by the same measure, can it be assumed BA is squeaky clean? Two wrongs certainly don't make a right, but it is fair and reasonable to expect one to argue for your corner.

The final analysis in essense is simple, BASSA garnered 96% support for industrial action based on the votes cast.....BA management on the other hand have singularly failed to gain the trust of the CC.....WHY?

As someone else pointed out, a company gets the industrial relations it deserves..IMHO never a truer statement uttered.

[Andy_S]

Firstly, please forgive us for not being able to publish these proposals/updates to you earlier. This was purely for practical reasons, as our negotiating team has been locked in Waterside .......
Forgive my intrusion......
Are the BASSA negotiators professional Cabin Crew themselves? Or are they full time BASSA officials with salaries paid by the union?

[747-436]

I still don’t understand why the union is getting in a flap about ‘Reduced Promotion Opportunities’ with BA taking a purser position away on the 747-400. Does that mean that they should also have 4 CSD’s, and then there would be lots of promotion opportunities! As I have said before if BA gets smaller long haul aircraft to replace the 747’s in years to come the presumably there would be fewer promotion opportunities to long haul? Will that be an issue?

This one is really strange though:

Retirement on appropriate benefits for any crew member no longer able to fly because of medical incapacity but who is fit for ground duties if they live more than 50 miles from their base.

As much as it isn’t very nice to have to give up flying because of a medical problem what is it to do with BA if you are fit for ground duties but you live over 50 miles from Base?!?!?
It is a personal choice where you live. Many people drive 50 miles each way to work every day and don’t have a problem so why should BA cabin crew be different? Does that mean any other employee of BA who lives over 50 miles from work can also claim early retirement and be paid for it? I don’t think so!!

I agree some things the cabin want are fair enough like being able to go to Funerals of people who might not be close relatives without going sick and things like that but some things take the P**s……………

[tristar2]

oh flips sake BASSA, you can't even get basic facts straight so why the heck should anyone believe any of your statements
The flight deck does not have a :"self contained atmosphere with higher oxygen levels".

I can look at that part of BASSA's staement and sort of understand what they mean but your obviously blinkered fc.If a member of the General public was to read this they would probably agree.You sit i the flight deck not in the main part of the aircraft with all the passengers so you get no direct contact with the germs brought on by passengers

[atyourcervix73]

"The flightdeck recieves 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin"

In laymens terms...pretty much what BASSA say.

I dunno about the 777, 747-400, and i cant remember with the 320

[wiggy]

"but your (sic) obviously blinkered flightcrew"
Gee, thanks, you guys really know how to alienate those who have some sympathy with you......
My point was - IMHO, even as "blinkered flightcrew" I feel you as a community have a point over AMP - there is a difference between being fit for a ground job and fit to fly. However when BASSA spouts inaccurate mumbo jumbo like "separate atmospheres" it looks to me like another attempt to wind up the ante between BALPA and BASSA and another attempt to feed the rumours broadcast on Galley FM, because I cannot see any other reason for that comment in the BASSA statement - can you?
Regards from a still slightly sympathetic "blinkered flightcrew".

[adm100]

"The flightdeck recieves 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin"
In laymens terms...pretty much what BASSA say.
I dunno about the 777, 747-400, and i cant remember with the 320

Great bit of homework. I'm glad we sit up there in our own little bubble. It's a good job that cockpit door is airtight and they never open it during the flight or we'd be screwed!

Dropping the sarcasm for a bit, it is true that during the flight we have to put up with a lot less hassle than the CC. We have to work just as hard and there are times during which our stress levels are very high. From my little experience (only been on line less than a year) I’ve always thought the CC have done a great job and always make a real effort to make sure we’re taken care of up front. I’ve never flown with a Skipper that’s had a bad word to say about the CC. So as far people saying that there is a divide between FD and CC at BA, I’ve never encountered any (on the airbus anyway).

I hope that we can sort this out without any IA but I don’t know which way it’s going to go.

[Litebulbs]

A conclusion from Boeing with regard to cabin air. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/ventilation.pdf Its not suprising that they are saying recirculated air is fine, but they are saying that cabin crew work in a unquie enviroment, with its unique effects on health.

[Flying Fred]

Flying Lawyer, excellent post (as always)

You as well as others have notice that the BASSA arguments are full of rhetoric but short on fact.

The latest BASSA update again is full of innacuracies/half truths

BA saves money by reducing the amount of fresh air circulated through the aircraft cabin. .
Where is the reference for this or is it just hearsay? On the 777 there is no control of aircon pack flow into the cabin. On the A320, there is some control, but my recollection is that is only turned down is the aircraft is less than half full.

Humidifiers are also often deactivated for both passengers and cabin crew. This increases the risk of infection.

Not fitted to the 777 or airbus. I believe the 747 had them but now deactivated as they were unrelieable and there was a bad smoke/fumes incident when one went wrong. Where is the research that says no humidifiers increases the risk of infections. My understanding is that bugs thrive in moist, damp atmospheres, not dry ones.

The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level. Complete rubbish. Where does this oxygen come from? Yes, the door is usually shut and the airflow is also a bit higher, but that is for smoke protection and equipment cooling reasons, not to reduce the risk of infection.

Attendance management:-

BASSA are being a bit more realistic here. The problem is BA People department have come up with a 'one size fits all' policy which works great for ground staff but not so well for flying staff. e.g., with a broken ankle, you can do an office job but not a flying job but this is counted as sickness against the flyer. Same for colds etc. However, BASSA are milking it for all it's worth with items such as

Severe emotional trauma through a life event - the death of a love one, victim of a violent crime etc.
Down route sickness.

How either of those differ from ground staff is lost on me. Also, the famous ingrowing toenail appears to have disappeared :)

Good sickness records should also be taken into account. We all get sick sometimes, that needs to be recognised and people helped not punished.

Completely agree

Upper deck purser:-

We can’t accept the removal of promotion opportunity coupled with the continuance of a discriminatory pay scale for post 1997 crew. It’s simply wrong.

This one is just a 'jobs for the boys' (and girls) argument. BA have offered severance packages for existing pursers/CSDs and increased part-time to keep the promotion flow coming. While I accept reduced promotion opportunities can be dispiriting, it is not a reason to strike. There are currently 5 supervisory grades on a 747 and BA want to replace one with a main crew member. At LGW now, 777s are being operated with 2 supervisory grades (which, incidentally, BASSA agreed to). The best way to protect promotion opportunities is through a strong & expanding BA.

Down route report time:-

Management researched and acknowledged the legitimacy of our claim and said that to take into account the additional duty time to accommodate post September 11th security checks would cost an extra £6.2 million.
As a gesture of conciliation, BASSA agreed to give up our claim on this issue and use this cost instead towards improving the new entrant pay scales.

BASSA give away their true motives here, not getting the duty hours correct but getting more money.

Pensions:-

In BA’s latest pension proposals the buy back for Cabin Crew it is an additional 17.5%. Nearly 3 times the cost than for ground staff!

BASSA conveniently forget to mention the £6m per annum that has been ringfenced to help negate the effects of the increased retirement age. If used in the same way as the pilots have done, pensionably pay scales could be raised by approx 20%. If this is done and the age 60 option is taken (8.25% contribution), they would get back close to the position they want for only 8.25%, not 17.5% as claimed.

Fixed links on shorthaul @ LHR

We want savings to be used to create a standby payment of £20 per person per standby.

Again. true colours shown here. All the stuff about how our members need a break and have to eat etc are discarded in favour of a payment again.

900hr

The law says you cannot fly above 900 hours; we want this to be honoured. Any “down time” to be made available to crew for rest and recuperation, as the law intended.

This one is a cracker. Firstly, they conveniently (again) forget to mention the 2000 duty hours part of the law and then they go on to interpret the european working time directive as "we can only do 900hrs work in a year". Funny old thing, the pilots who are in the same aircraft do their couses, sim checks, SEP, training duties etc in addition to the '900hrs flying'.

New entrant pay:-

We would like to clarify exactly where we are, especially in relation to the new starter rates.

One of the most important issues is new entrant pay and a clear and unequivocal joining of the two pay scales.


Again, BASSA forget to mention that THIS IS AN EXISTING AGREEMENT THAT THEY SIGNED UP TO at the conclsion of their last sick out/strike in 1997. BASSA now want to break their own agreement.

I also have found that most CC I speak to have been whipped up by dire predictions of doom and gloom such as the notorious 'diary of a stewardess, 2017'. They think that BA has proposed (as Eddy thinks) to cut their pay by up to 40% and put them two to a room in airport hotels for 12hr nightstops on the West coast of the USA. Look at BASSAs 12 points and see if any of that is actually there.

Standing by for more incoming messages high on emotion but short on fact.
I can't help thinking about the last episode of Blackadder Goes Forth, as Edmund Blackadder and all his fine friends go over the top as they blindly follow the orders of their leaders, only to be met by the sounds of machine guns.

I do hope the CC survive this. They are a fine bunch of people who do a great job - they are just being poorly let, IMHO

[Ghostflyer]

Cervix,
The air in most of the aircraft (maybe not 75, never flown it) is recirculated and the filters are not good enough to remove viruses. In some of the aircraft you can smell the First/Business Pax having a dump!

I am looking at it from another airline's perspective on the outside and whilst there may well be a reduction in BA's CC conditions, they will still have it better than industry average. 900hrs? 22 sick days? I am not for mass erosion of conditions but someone earlier talked about fighting battles you can win.

A lot of the points raised by BASSA appear utter trivia and divert from the key points. My missus worked for BA through the 94' strike and she was branded a black leg. She was junior crew at the time and really didn't give a toss about most of the issues. At a party one night, a Purser that was commuting from Barbados tried to explain to me how outrageous it was that her way of life was under threat.

Please explain to me in the briefest of factual terms what the status quo was, what the company are trying to do to you and then why you (not BASSA) feel it is wrong.

Kind regards,

Ghost

[atyourcervix73]

The air in most of the aircraft (maybe not 75, never flown it) is recirculated and the filters are not good enough to remove viruses. In some of the aircraft you can smell the First/Business Pax having a dump!


Well on the 75/76 there exists a pressure differential between F/D and cabin,...the F/D gets 100% fresh from the left pack...no recirc air, I suspect it is the same on most boeings. (I've never flown 73,74,77 etc...but there seems to be plenty of similarities, particularly with air systems)

Please explain to me in the briefest of factual terms what the status quo was, what the company are trying to do to you and then why you (not BASSA) feel it is wrong.


Simple, the company treat CC staff as disposible and with scant regard for their welfare IMHO.
This is either a result of a deliberate policy, a result of mismanagement, or a combination of the two.
That is why BASSA (whatever the rights and wrongs are) enjoys such overwhelming support.

BTW, I'm only voicing my opinions and observations here:ok:

[TopBunk]

Well on the 75/76 there exists a pressure differential between F/D and cabin,...the F/D gets 100% fresh from the left pack...no recirc air, I suspect it is the same on most boeings. (I've never flown 73,74,77 etc...but there seems to be plenty of similarities, particularly with air systems)

demonstrating that a little knowledge is dangerous .....

That is why BASSA (whatever the rights and wrongs are) enjoys such overwhelming support.

Undoubtedly the BASSA reps have delivered necessary message to get the vote, and nothing to do with lies and spin, of course, for that I congratulate them.

The people I feel sorry for are the genuine a-political cabin crew out there who are, possibly, a little naive. They are being manipulated, imho, by the union reps for their own reasons, and it is they (not the reps) who will come out the worse for this ill-considered dispute.

BTW, I'm only voicing my opinions and observations here:ok:


Which you are perfectly entitled too. I am captaining a flight to the US getting back to LHR on Sunday. This will probably give the crew Mon-Wed off - the days of the strike. Following this they will prob be rostered work Thurs-Sat/Sun; again giving them the next 3 strike days off. I expect them to be very relieved about not having to strike!

For every crew like them, there will be honest crew members who have to make potentially life-changing decision twice if they have Mon-Wed reports.

Good luck - I fear you will need it.

[Flying Fred]

Cervix,

Thanks for posting and it's good to hear an alternative point of view.
Personally, I have always got on with the CC and think they do a great job. I am not one of those extreme FD you talk about. However, as my post above illustrates, I believe they are being led straight into the guns by a 1970s style leadership who have kept some important bits of the truth from them. I have no problem with them striking, so long as they have been given ALL the facts. Did you think 'diary of a stewardess, 2017' was factual?

Ghostflyer asked you

Please explain to me in the briefest of factual terms what the status quo was, what the company are trying to do to you and then why you (not BASSA) feel it is wrong.

Your reply was

Simple, the company treat CC staff as disposible and with scant regard for their welfare IMHO.
This is either a result of a deliberate policy, a result of mismanagement, or a combination of the two.

I'm sorry, but you reply contained not one FACT, just opinion. You even used the term IMHO. This strike is ostensibly not about "treating CC as disposable", it is about the 12 items. Please can you answer Ghostflyer's question.

I know emotions are high and some of the more rabid posts from flight crew on here have not helped, but I am fed up of spin and rhetoric from BASSA just as much as I am fed up of spin from BA. All IMHO ;)

[atyourcervix73]

Topbunk
From the 777 manual..
"The flight deck receives 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and
is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin to prevent
smoke from entering the flight deck." as per the 757 and 767
On the 747...
I believe the F/D comes from pack 1 (bleed air from No 1 and 2) with option of introducing trim air....:ok:

As you say a little knowledge is dangerous:}

Fred he asked for my opinion, not for a factual summation of the issues..which is why he said "feel it is wrong"

All I can offer is opinion, I'm not a member of CC.

This strike is ostensibly not about "treating CC as disposable", it is about the 12 items. Please can you answer Ghostflyer's question.


If you believe that..(note I haven't said Bassa are playing fair) then thats up to you.

[the heavy heavy]

.have you ever taken a moment to think about the lesser paid and well pampered staff who do all the hard work on the ground during disruption,severe weather and the peak travel periods.

one instance of fc flexibilty was a crew positioning n to operate out the next day were on a flight that was only delayed by 30 mins but they insisted that the morning service they were operating be delayed ecause of the times from chalk to chalk.now correct me if i'm wrong but they had just sat on their a***s for the whole time more than likely sleeping so how can you justify the delay to the high fare paying business passengers of that morning flight.



mmm, lost for words!
i would bet u that one look out my window in a 37kt x-wind on a wet runway with severe turb and wind shear would both explain why i get paid what i do and send you running for the safety of the terminal. sitting on our a*** and sleeping, you've never done a man-lhr or lgw -cdg shuttle then. as for the rest times, since you haven't been specific i can't really comment. i know i prefer the pilot of my aircraft to be rested when he flys me and my family.

as a commuter i have spent many days in the the terminal watching the staff 'cope' with the disruption. if i was a paying pax i wouldn't touch us with a barge pole. when i need to get home on time and without putting up with attitude i fly bmi. for every 1 time i've seen ba customer service staff defuse problems i've watched them create 2 more! i could list them but i won't since this is a thread about cc.

as for the regions, they have my support and sympathy. the pension deal on the table and the fate of the regions are not linked. i think ww is making a huge mistake with the regions but your assertion that the pilots have secured a pension deal that is screwing the rest of the company is way off the mark.

as an aside if the cc at lhr were up to the standard of the gla/edi guys (a standard of service and profesionalism that the rest of the airline never get close to reaching) i would be 100% behind bassa's demands.

[Dozza2k]

Spoke to some crew recently who were very relieved to have nightstops or be downroute on sunday night..........so they didn't have to strike, plus since they aren't officially on IA as they are not at base they will being paid overtime/boxes or whatever its called for the 3 days they will probably be stranded (win win eh?).I have a feeling that BA won't send out any of the last wave on sunday night to avoid having crews all over the place for days and days.

We'll see i guess.
d2k.

[TopBunk]

Cervix

You may be correct , but the (appalling) tech manuals available to us, suggest that all air (from packs and reconditioned) is fed into a single manifold, from which air is fed to both cabin and flight deck.

As to it being 'pressurised' into the flight deck, you would probably notice this when opening the door, with an outflow of air. Conversely, we would not expect, if this were the case, to notice the 'arome' from the pax loos (which we do!).

[the heavy heavy]

cervix,

have you got all the tm's at home?

in 6 months and your an expert on the bus, 757, 767, 777 and reliably informed on the 747-400! you must be a joy to pass the hours with.

all the cc that have talked to me about the 'oxy scandal' seem to believe it's a conspiracy, a direct assault on their health by the company. come on lets be real.

you've only been in 6 months and your married to one so your objectivity and experience are both limited. cc took sickies at an amazing rate prior to eg300. (you were not even in the company so you won't remeber.) now they are bleating that they come to work sick. i haven't seen it myself. your earlier statement that i was worried i would lose if the cabin crew won some concessions as a result of strike action is non-sensical. what exactly do i/we stand to lose from their strike (appart from the obvious damage to the company)

the truth is that the abuse of the system prior to eg300 has made the company synical. having refused to operate so as to attend a close friends funeral i have a great deal of symapthy for the prediciment they are sometimes placed in. however the truth was that 22 days was taking the p*ss. the evidence was that sickness was highest at the same days every year, often by the same people, go figure!

having just read the bassa pravda i am left thinking it was typed by a hissy queen with a mental age of 13. when ww takes away their staff travel, annual bonus and sacks a few to make a point he will break this strike in days. why, because the truth is the crew are striking for a poorly thought out wishlist which fly's in the face of the reality we work in. when they realise that, as many already are, they will panic and fold.

balpa was careful to understand what we pilots were prepared to fight for. they got it right, as did the company, which is why the pension deal is a compromise which keeps us at work and the company moving forward. bassa appears to confuse posturing as a blank cheque for further demands, bad start point. i have no doubt they will lose.

unfortunatley by the time they realise we will all have lost.

[CEJM]

sitting on our a*** and sleeping, you've never done a man-lhr or lgw -cdg shuttle then.

The heavy heavy, I think you missed the point that Tristar2 was making. He wasn't referring to the operating crew. He was referring to the positioning crew who had been stiiting on their a*** or sleeping during the positioning sector. And after that still wanted their flight delayed in the morning because their positioning flight was 30 min late.

But there are not enough facts here to judge that crews decision because we don't know what their preceding duty was.

This thread makes for interesting reading. Some CC (Eddy) claim that their wages are going to be cut by 40%. And the answer which keeps returning after questions are asked is that not all the points for strike are mentioned in the 12 items.

Personally i would get a FACT on this thread if my wages were indeed cut by 40%. Because if thats the truth than you will find support on this site. not with the current list.

If there are more items that you are going to strike over than please make them public on this board. Instead of repeating yourselves that it is not our business. You owe it to your passengers to let them know why their service/plans are disrupted.

Got luck to all.

[atyourcervix73]

Sorry heavy heavy...
I suspect I fall into the "jack of all trades..master of none" category
you've only been in 6 months and your married to one so your objectivity and experience are both limited. cc took sickies at an amazing rate prior to eg300. (you were not even in the company so you won't remeber.) now they are bleating that they come to work sick. i haven't seen it myself. your earlier statement that i was worried i would lose if the cabin crew won some concessions as a result of strike action is non-sensical
You are right of course, my experience is limited, my objectivity on the other hand is just fine TYVM.....:ok:

You have your opinion, fine, I have mine:ok:

Topbunk, check your PM's
Some techy stuff for you:ok:

[Litebulbs]

Heavy

If you are a BA pilot, you get very well paid for flying in those adverse conditions and a applaud your trained skill in doing your job. That pilot following you down the slope, in say a less prestigiously painted aircraft, could be equally skilled, but possibly on not quite the same package. Should I be more fearful on that jet, rather than yours? You get paid what you get paid, cabin crew get paid what they get paid.

I do find the BASSA statement a bit odd though. It isn't going to win many friends.

[DarkStar]

As BA crew, I too think hourly rate is the way forward - BA wants to introduce them to smoothen out attendance issues with respect to certain flights (difficulty in crewing flights to India for instance, where allowances are poor). The hourly rate has little to do with saving money and much more to do with correcting intolerably high absence.
Pros:
Attendance issues (hopefully) resolved (no one will have any reason not to turn up for a BOM).
In short, everyone gains. What exactly is BASSA's problem?
May I also add - I don't agree that ANY of the 12 points BASSA have outlined justify this strike...some of their points are unjustified altogether.
Yes, I was one of the few (330) that voted NO...I am certain that more may have seen the light (or simply possessed some common sense or objectivity) if BASSA hadn't done such a great job of brainwashing 96% of the membership...
Sorry fellow crew, but I'm not stupid...

CFC - Smell the Coffee seems to be enlightened CC. Perhaps you could justify the 'difficulty' of crewing Indian flights and 'no one would have a reason not to turn up for a BOM'?? As I ask, please explain how CC can call-in sick or 'stuck in traffic:rolleyes: ' and thereby stitching up QRS or Home Stbys. It's a point of principal isn't?

By the way, I think it's fair to say the sickness rate amongst FC is low and rare on 'Indian' routes.

I spoke to our CC on my last nightstop, they are sick to death of BASSA and judging by letters in London newspapers the general public show little, if any sympathy. :hmm:

[Litebulbs]

BASSA is them, the British Airways Stewards and Stewardesses! Are they sick of themselves?

[CFC]

CFC - Smell the Coffee seems to be enlightened CC. Perhaps you could justify the 'difficulty' of crewing Indian flights and 'no one would have a reason not to turn up for a BOM'?? As I ask, please explain how CC can call-in sick or 'stuck in traffic:rolleyes: ' and thereby stitching up QRS or Home Stbys. It's a point of principal isn't?
By the way, I think it's fair to say the sickness rate amongst FC is low and rare on 'Indian' routes.
I spoke to our CC on my last nightstop, they are sick to death of BASSA and judging by letters in London newspapers the general public show little, if any sympathy. :hmm:


So the truth is out DarkStar - you are just another armchair observer putting your two penneth' in for whatever reason - amongst many on this thread making comments without supporting facts.


I can only speak from experience and find Indian services no different to many others, and there are many others that are worth less financially.


Unfortunately what you read in the press is sometimes planted there for the likes of you - e.g. 'ingrown toenail' story supplied by BA Press office.

[the heavy heavy]

litebulb,

top pay does not equate to top quality, i agree without a doubt. i also agree with the principle that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. so for the majority of pilots in the majority of airlines (ba included) i think you probably have average pilots being paid an approriate salary on a roughly level playing field.

i think the above principles applied to the cc hold true. ba has chosen to pay the top wages in the market. the cc will tell you that they are the best and deserve those wages.

they apparently now think they deserve more.

[Flying Fred]

From the 777 manual..
"The flight deck receives 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and
is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin to prevent
smoke from entering the flight deck."

I agree with you, but this is somewhat different to BASSA's:-

The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level.

which is their SPIN on the truth. CC now think we are stealing their oxygen as well as their pensions (both not true)

Fred he asked for my opinion, not for a factual summation of the issues..which is why he said "feel it is wrong"

Yes, but he also asked you to

Please explain to me in the briefest of factual terms (my bold)

I notice you have not picked up on/ignored any of my other points such as:-

Did you think 'diary of a stewardess, 2017' was factual?

or

BASSA conveniently forget to mention the £6m per annum that has been ringfenced to help negate the effects of the increased retirement age.


Finally, you wrote:-

If you believe that..(note I haven't said Bassa are playing fair) then thats up to you.

Then, pray tell us, what exactly are they are striking for? 'cos BA, the travelling public, fellow workers and the press think it's about the 12 items. You hint there may be a hidden political agena here and that is the truth of it.

ATB

[Viewfrom5Bells]

With Tony Woodley licking his wounds after the Gate Gourmet dispute the TGWU has Dromey as its public face. I find it quite interesting that his wife Harriet Harman is about to run for the Labour Deputy leadership. I wonder if Dromey is trying to sublimally get the message through to the left wing Labour caucus that the family Dromey/Harman is on the workers side.

[atyourcervix73]

Fred..
Yes, but he also asked you to
He didn't ALSO ask me....his question was thus...

Please explain to me in the briefest of factual terms what the status quo was, what the company are trying to do to you and then why you (not BASSA) feel it is wrong.

Which to my small brain equates to " tell me in your own words what you feel the facts are"
I didn't answer relating to what the company are doing to me, as I am not CC, which is also why I have refrained from commenting about the status quo.
As for BASSA spin...try reading what I have stated in previous posts:hmm:

Then, pray tell us, what exactly are they are striking for? 'cos BA, the traveling public, fellow workers and the press think it's about the 12 items. You hint there may be a hidden political agenda here and that is the truth of it

As I've already stated, IMHO they are striking out of frustration, in simple terms.

So Fred if you want me to put on the record all the reasons and excuses, I'm sorry to disappoint, my opinion is that 1 or 2 points are valid.
As I've said previously, why has this come to a strike? I'm of the opinion, BASSA has the support of its members purely because they feel disaffected and marginalized.

The flight deck has a self-contained atmosphere with a far higher oxygen level

Lastly the use of the word "far" is an exaggeration, the rest (at least in lay terms, which is the audience afterall) is pretty accurate.

[whattimedoweland]

For those of you especially the general public who may be reading this topic I would just like to reasure you.
It may seem from what you are reading that flight crew and cabin crew from BA do not like each other too much!!!.
No matter what walk of life or job you are in there are always a few hell bent on confrontation.
The reason I very rarely view this forum is for that reason.Pprune seems to attract those who just want to 'rubbish' other groups of people and in some case's justify their very large salaries at the cost of others.
I go to work and can honestly say in the last few years I can count on one hand the crew on each side of the door I did'nt enjoy flying and being downroute with.
I fear those few are the same bitter people who end up on here.
Here's to the nice majority!!.:ok:
WTDWL.
PS. where any of you dumped by pilots or stewardesses to make you feel this way:confused: .

[Flying Fred]

As I've already stated, IMHO they are striking out of frustration, in simple terms.

Ok, I'll agree with you there. However, I have to ask 2 questions:-
What will bring an end to the strike - to end their 'frustration'? BA aren't going to concede anything big.

Why do they feel frustrated? Could it be that BASSA have told them they are frustrated, therefore they are?

I have said several times I have no problem with them striking provided it is based on truths. Every CC member I have spoken to has come up with stuff like 'hourly rate allowances' & 'airport hotels' & 'single night LAX' all of which have been fed to them by BASSA.

So Fred if you want me to put on the record all the reasons and excuses, I'm sorry to disappoint, my opinion is that 1 or 2 points are valid.

I am not disappointed, I agree with you entirely - they probably only have 1 or 2 valid points and I am glad you have admitted it. AMP is certainly an issue and I said so in a previous post, but BASSA pretty much want BA to discount all sickness which rather defeats the object. Also, BA have been taking the p*ss for a while now about downroute report times (which, for the uninitiated, affects crewing levels, rest & overtime) but then BASSA go and spoil it all by offering to swap it for increased pay rates.

I notice you once again ignored my other questions. (diary of a stewardess, Pension £6m) and nobody has commented on the other SPIN items from the latest newsletter I posted on no.529

[atyourcervix73]

notice you once again ignored my other questions. (diary of a stewardess, Pension £6m) and nobody has commented on the other SPIN items from the latest newsletter I posted on no.529

I didn't ignore them, I just don't believe they have any relevence to the debate, spin is spin and always will be such, if calm heads were to prevail, then the ego's would be set aside (on both sides) and a potentially damaging strike could be averted.

My position is that BA management have a lot more to answer for than perhaps BASSA do. I also contend that a certain % of cockpit crew have little or no regard for CC as whole, and that as long as it doesn't effect them negatively they are happy to let BA act in a way detrimental to other employee groups.

No one wins with a strike, history repeats this over and over again, unfortunately BA management have annoyed CC members enough to provoke action.

Finally I note with interest tonights episode of watchdog mentioned 22000 bags lost over the Xmas period, I wonder, will that be blamed on the baggage handlers?

[Flying Lawyer]

The reason I very rarely veiw this forum .......
Now that you are here, and you're senior BA CC, how about saying which of the Bassa points you support and why?

And confirm or correct the figures in post #490 which are said to be the actual level of BA CC earnings?
(ie Not just the basic salary.)

[Sabre-Rattler]

When the darlings refer to a "one off life event" for sickness to be discounted,surely they realise by now that Wimbledon happens every Summer?

Fred, good posts fella, you are well informed, in fact nearly as well as I am :ok:

[DarkStar]

So the truth is out DarkStar - you are just another armchair observer putting your two penneth' in for whatever reason - amongst many on this thread making comments without supporting facts.
I can only speak from experience and find Indian services no different to many others, and there are many others that are worth less financially.
Unfortunately what you read in the press is sometimes planted there for the likes of you - e.g. 'ingrown toenail' story supplied by BA Press office.
You may call it 'Armchair', but I'm entitled to voice my opinion whether it be from 'behind the door', Compass or discussing views whilst on a trip. Sadly, you have evaded the question about the ethics of CC calling in sick to avoid certain trip e.g BOM/DEL for example. Not many call in sick for a NRT.
You might do well to spend some time working with Crew Control on the 2nd Floor of Compass. My contacts there will tell you more about CC 'sickness' than BA Press Office would ever disclose to the public. I don't believe any Crew should fly with ear infections, but sadly, it would seem CC have one of the worst sickness records in the World.
My wife is a nurse, working a full shift pattern on an Acute ward. The average sickness rate for her ward last year was 5 days, for the hospital it was 6. She is surrounded by ill people, she is poorly paid in comparison even to NEW BA starter rates, she doesn't get 'Allowances' or Box payments or destination payments' so why is CC sickness so high? You don't know when you're well off. :ugh:
You can see why people shake their head and wonder what is going on at BA. It's embarrasing in todays climate. :(

...and please explain why we struggle to CC flights during Royal Ascot, Wimbledon and Henley.:E

[whattimedoweland]

Flying Laywer,

Firstly thanks for your reply and whatever I feel personally thanks for your well delivered posts on here.

I will not disclose the points why I will take part.I will say that I spent much time looking at both sides of the case before casting my vote.

I will not aire on a public forum or anywhere else for that matter on which or how many issues directed my voting decision.It's not professional and it is not the business of people I do not know and may never meet!!.

I have never made a judgement or comment on the decisions of other groups of workers in times of industrial problems for two reasons.

1) Unless you are in that field of work or particular department and know the real issues and background you are in NO position to make judgement on someone else's decision.

2) It has nothing to do with me and I find no joy in sticking my nose into someone else's business,especially when it is personal to them!!.

As regards the wage's I must try and clear this one up.I have been with BA 21years, crew for 13 and CSD for eight of those.
I wish I did earn the figure quoted by the Telegraph.I earned some £16,000 less than that and that was by best year.Certainly not the £70,000 quoted in a paper this week by one of my ill informed Gatwick colleagues.If I was on either of the figures quoted I would be more than happy.

None of us in BA should have to justify our our salaries or make them open for all to see.The only one's who should,maybe our greedy over paid managers who look for savings from the staff and then award themselves £76 million in share bonus payments and Willie within a year gets a £65,000 pay rise!!.Double standards come to mind.

I would also like to correct one post that implied that many BASSA members 'hung off every word and text' from their Union.I felt that was an insult to people l have much respect for and who have an ability to think for themselves.

Sweeping statements are very much the norm on PPRUNE!!.;)

WTDWL.

[whattimedoweland]

Darkstar,

I for one have never missed a Bom/Del/Nbo or any other destination for that matter on purpose.The fact I love curry does not come into it.Those who do miss them pi*s me off and I wish they'd leave.

NRT may be good money but I personally don't like the place.
I feel you have labeled us all with the same brush,unfairly I feel.
There again I get used to the sweeping statements on here!!.

Some people say most BA pilots eat all the cheese and whats left from First Class,wear light coloured Dockers trousers,fake Bangkok Ralph shirts and drive a second hand Volve due to their third marriage!!.But we all know thats not true....Is it?;) .

Sweeping statements are pathetic.

WTDWL.

[Dogs_ears_up]

None of us in BA should have to justify our salaries or make them open for all to see.
Why not? You're about to go on a strike where money is part of the issue. It's hardly surprising if you get asked about salary?

[Flying Fred]

I didn't ignore them, I just don't believe they have any relevence to the debate I'm sorry but thats ignoring them in my book. I believe 'diary of a stewardess 2017' is relevant because the 'information' contained in that work of fiction is whiy a lot of crew are striking.

My position is that BA management have a lot more to answer for than perhaps BASSA do.

Ok, so back that position up with FACTS. I am prepared to listen, but I have seen nothing on here of what big bad BA management is meant to have done. There is a huge perception (96%) of this but I believe BASSA are partly responsible for whipping this up with lots of half truths/rumours/downright lies. I am sure IFS management could be be improved and I know that getting the day off you want as CC is a huge problem. Yes, I agree that AMP (EG300) could be better but something had to be done about the chronic levels of sickness before you arrived in the company.
A few years ago I personally heard 2 CC on the car park bus openly discussing their plan to throw a sickie at the weekend in order to attend a party. It was the culture and had to be stopped.

I also contend that a certain % of cockpit crew have little or no regard for CC as whole, and that as long as it doesn't effect them negatively they are happy to let BA act in a way detrimental to other employee groups.

Yes, I am sure you are right. I am not one of them. As I have stated elsewhere, I hold the CC in high regard and do not wish to see them hurt, as I fear they will be. I just believe they are being led by a dinosaur union into a fight they cannot win. Contrast this with the CC89/Amicus position.

No one wins with a strike, history repeats this over and over again, unfortunately BA management have annoyed CC members enough to provoke action.

I agree with your first sentiment entirely. Please back the second part up with facts.

ATB and keep posting.

[whattimedoweland]

Dogs Ears,

Sorry in my opinion money is a private matter.I do not want to know what you or others earn.Thats their/your private business and I have a life.

WTDWL.

[Flying Fred]

I feel you have labeled us all with the same brush,unfairly I feel.

Totally agree. The vast majority of CC are decent hard working folk just like the vast majority of pilots/engineers/customer service agents etc etc. Unfortunately the cynical few who take the p*ss tarr us all.

Some people say most BA pilots eat all the cheese and whats left from First Class,wear light coloured Dockers trousers,fake Bangkok Ralph shirts and drive a second hand Volve due to their third marriage!!.

Sh*t, better pack different trousers tomorrow ;) ;) ;)

Still on first marriage and not a Volvo in sight.

Don't agree with your decision but like your posts. Good luck

[Dogs_ears_up]

...I do not want to know what you or others earn.Thats their/your private business...
The point is that I'm not going on strike over money, and inconveniencing thousands of customers and fellow staff in the process - you are. Salary is part of the issue here - you can't ask for public sympathy and support for your position if you will not discuss what that position is. :uhoh:

[atyourcervix73]

Fred..
I'm sorry but thats ignoring them in my book. I believe 'diary of a stewardess 2017' is relevant because the 'information' contained in that work of fiction is whiy a lot of crew are striking.

I disagree, the CC I know laughed at this.

Ok, so back that position up with FACTS.

Sorry, I can't honestly be bothered, there is more than enough anecdotal evidence to answer your question. If that isn't good enough to illustrate my point, then perhaps a quick search of the recent industrial past of BA will enlighten you:ok: Its a plethora of double dealing, propoganda, and rather insensitive people management...it all adds up Fred, people have long memories.

A few years ago I personally heard 2 CC on the car park bus openly discussing their plan to throw a sickie at the weekend in order to attend a party. It was the culture and had to be stopped.

If that was the case, its reprehensible. As you say it was the "culture" so, I ask where did this culture eminate from? Some would suggest poor management has some culpability here.

[Joetom]

Thanks for the following quote Flying Fred.............................................
............................................................ ........................................
BASSA conveniently forget to mention the £6m per annum that has been ringfenced to help negate the effects of the increased retirement age. If used in the same way as the pilots have done, pensionably pay scales could be raised by approx 20%. If this is done and the age 60 option is taken (8.25% contribution), they would get back close to the position they want for only 8.25%, not 17.5% as claimed.
.....................................................
A big problem must be round the corner, when BASSA get a deal sorted out with the company and the other Unions and Staff understand Flying staff are to get approx 20% basic pay rise due to pension changes we will be following the same type thread with all Non-Flying Staff, why are the company winding up all the staff like this???
.
One newspaper said over the weekend that at least all this trouble should be sorted out by April and the summer should be ok, looks like this will drag and drag, looks like another poor plan falling apart fast, on the plus side, the managers will get lots of free press coverage this year!!!

[Flying Fred]

Fred..
I disagree, the CC I know laughed at this.

Yes, I know, but this sort of propaganda is purvasive. Why do a lot of cabin crew I ask think they are striking over the very issues in that 'diary'?

Sorry, I can't honestly be bothered, there is more than enough anecdotal evidence to answer your question.

...so you can't be bothered (to back your argument up with any facts) Great. That just leads me to believe you don't have any facts, just rhetoric & hearsay.

If that isn't good enough to illustrate my point, then perhaps a quick search of the recent industrial past of BA will enlighten you:ok: Its a plethora of double dealing, propoganda, and rather insensitive people management...it all adds up Fred, people have long memories.

So where is this evidence of double dealing, propaganda, insensitive people management etc?? Great on rhetoric, short on fact. Please give examples from the 'recent industrial past'

If that was the case, its reprehensible. As you say it was the "culture" so, I ask where did this culture eminate from? Some would suggest poor management has some culpability here..

Yep, I would agree poor management had it's part for all sorts of reasons. Over the past 2 years the management has got stronger and decided to end the sickie culture throughout BA (not just CC). That's what this strike is partly about. BASSA want to discount almost any illness. I agree that EG300 has its faults and could work better but it is not worth striking over.

[atyourcervix73]

Fred for Gawds sake...stop being soooooooo bloody pedantic, if its easier for you to believe what you want then be my guest:ok:

[Flying Fred]

Thanks for the following quote Flying Fred.............................................
............................................................ ........................................
BASSA conveniently forget to mention the £6m per annum that has been ringfenced to help negate the effects of the increased retirement age. If used in the same way as the pilots have done, pensionably pay scales could be raised by approx 20%. If this is done and the age 60 option is taken (8.25% contribution), they would get back close to the position they want for only 8.25%, not 17.5% as claimed.
.....................................................
A big problem must be round the corner, when BASSA get a deal sorted out with the company and the other Unions and Staff understand Flying staff are to get approx 20% basic pay rise due to pension changes we will be following the same type thread with all Non-Flying Staff, why are the company winding up all the staff like this???
.
One newspaper said over the weekend that at least all this trouble should be sorted out by April and the summer should be ok, looks like this will drag and drag, looks like another poor plan falling apart fast, on the plus side, the managers will get lots of free press coverage this year!!!

You are welcome to use the quote but at least quote me correctly. I said they could achieve an approx 20% pensionable pay rise, not basic pay rise as you quoted. Take home pay (which I believe you are referring to) in fact goes down a bit because contribution rates (which are the same for you as for me, 8.5% for option 1 and 5.25% for option 2) are based on pensionable pay and therefore would also go up by 20%. This of course only is applicable to 'New NAPS'. The point I was making is the BASSA have rather conveniently forgotton to mention this to their members

Sorry to disappoint you and can we get back to the strike discussion...

[Grunf]

Hello all. Just a small correction regarding some (technical) quotes:
Topbunk
From the 777 manual..
"The flight deck receives 100% fresh conditioned air from the left pack only, and
is maintained at a slightly higher pressure than the passenger cabin to prevent
smoke from entering the flight deck." as per the 757 and 767
On the 747...


atyourcervix,
I think you are in error. Either there is a special manual for BA 777 or I do not see things well (I have access to all tech doc from Boeing's fleet).
From 777 ECS description:

"Conditioned air from packs passes through check valves, and enters the mix manifold in the aft end of the forward cargo compartment. Filtered, recalculated air is added to the mix manifold by the two lower recirculation fans. Fresh air for the flight deck branches off from the left pack outlet duct before it enters the mix manifold. "

There is no mention of the pressure differential. Also there would be a need for a special analysis if that is the case even for a small delta P.
Another quote from a testimonial given by Boeing's VP of Engineering and Product Integrity in the wake of events in 2001:

"•The flight deck must be able to withstand pressure differences between the cabin and the flight deck in the event of a rapid decompression. This is why cockpit doors are designed with vents that open, or the entire door opens, whenever there is a significant pressure differential between the cockpit and the cabin. "

In general there is no pressure difference between the two. Only case is the critical, rapid decompression, already required by the regulatory documents.

Sorry for digression

Cheers,

[Flying Fred]

Fred for Gawds sake...stop being soooooooo bloody pedantic, if its easier for you to believe what you want then be my guest:ok:
Aaaarg :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
All I want you to do is back up your arguments with something resembling a fact. I am more than happy to believe what you believe if only you could tell me that it is based on something more than a feeling!!!
ATB

[Litebulbs]

For thr 11 years that I was at BA, I met all sorts of managers, but the underling current was a change towards the more agressive type. With all the money and monopoly on routes, you thought that they would team up with staff, get a great working atmosphere and take on the opposition.

Remember all those years back, when BA dirty tricks where in the press. BA lost against Sir Richard. King and Marshall settled out of court. He gave the winings to his staff and called it the BA Bonus. What great industrial relations.

WW can only dream of staff relatons like that. That is why Virgin compete so strongly against BA, with all of the benefts that BA protect. Look after your staff and they will earn you fortunes!

[Flying Fred]

Grunf,

Sorry I'm going to (against all my best instincts :ugh: ) back cervix up here.

His quote comes directly from the 777 tech manual p 12-02-20-2.

It's about the only decent fact he has come up with though :) :) :)

p.s. Cervix, nothing personal. I'm enjoying :} the debate.

[Flying Lawyer]

I am too. :ok:

Thanks to everyone on both sides for allowing me to join in when it's arguably none of my business.

FL

[Flying Fred]

Happy to oblige FL.

You're more than welcome and you add a bit of saniity to this (sometimes) insane debate. :ok:

[whattimedoweland]

Cheers Fred,
I like your posts too.Still on your first marriage and you're a pilot.Are you still under 30!!:p .
Yeah going on strike for the first time in 21 years.Tough decision for anyone but I've made it.
This dispute is not over the BA 'spin' of an ingrowing toe nail but a whole range of issues which amount to a large erosion of our terms and conditions.
What BA have done is come in for many things in one hit in an aggressive manner.
Apart from the 12 points,their bullish style of management,arrogant manner and overall total disregard for it's staff,IFS management in many areas are seen by many as incompetent.In all my years I have never felt so poorly poorly led as I am by the present management.

I have looked carefully at what they have said, asked questions and got too many inconsistent answers from my management team.

I have also listened to BASSA and realise some may think there is hype coming from them and I have heard some say misleading statements.However my trust lies with them.

I feel sad that I will be on the picket line, but I will.Disappointed that it has come to this?. yes.

Worried?.Yes but who wouldn't be!!.

We felt it was time to make a stand against this management and to save our conditions.
WTDWL.

PS. When the dust has settled I sincerely hope that the board and major shareholders will ask for answers from management.Mainly,why would 96.1% of a 80% return, vote for a strike?.

[atyourcervix73]

Fred

My apologies.......frustration allied to Englands latest performance in Adelaide :ooh:

I stand by my comments, there is ample anecdotal evidence around, as such I don't believe it is up to me to present it to you. I am not trying to win an argument nor seek justification on here, I am merely presenting my opinion based on what I can assess, and what I can substantiate.

I would ask that you keep an open mind (as I believe I have) to the real underlying issues here, and bear in mind that if WW and the management team get their way..we could well be next on the list of targets further down the track.

Finally well said whattimedoweland, indeed why did 96% of the returned votes say yes for a strike? serious questions need answers.

[Grunf]

Grunf,
Sorry I'm going to (against all my best instincts :ugh: ) back cervix up here.
His quote comes directly from the 777 tech manual p 12-02-20-2.
It's about the only decent fact he has come up with though :) :) :)
p.s. Cervix, nothing personal. I'm enjoying :} the debate.

OK I guess I have to dig deeper. :O

[Litebulbs]

Don't justify anything

£500m+ last year went somewhere. If someone is getting it, then the staff should as well. The people investing in BA did not offer any customer service, the staff did, the people investing in BA did not fly unsocialble hours, the staff did. The people investing in BA do not work 24/7, the staff do. The direct interface between BA and the people who give the shaeholders their dividend payments are the staff.

WW should be saying, 10% margin is what we want, how can we do this together? How can we solve 700 sickies a day? If crew are going sick, then find a way to address the reasons why the do.

[Flying Fred]

Fred
My apologies.......frustration allied to Englands latest performance in Adelaide :ooh:

You've finally found something we can agree on. They were cr*p, weren't they? :\

I too wish to keep an open mind but I am having extreme difficulty getting to the bottom of why CC feel the way they do. There is plenty of perception out there but not much to back it up.

WTDWL

Still on your first marriage and you're a pilot.Are you still under 30!! .

I wish :{

Apart from the 12 points,their bullish style of management,arrogant manner and overall total disregard for it's staff,IFS management in many areas are seen by many as incompetent. In all my years I have never felt so poorly poorly led as I am by the present management.

Can you give examples? I'm keen to know.

Mainly,why would 96.1% of a 80% return, vote for a strike?

This is the bit that causes me concern. When I ask CC why they voted, a lot say "to support the union", others have said "hourly rate pay", "single nightstops in SFO & LAX", "airport hotels" and a few have said "AMP" and "new-joiner pay rates". Only the last 2 are on the list of 12 items and both are existing agreements which BASSA wish to modify. As I have said all along, the AMP is not good but I can live with it. As far as the pay rates go, BASSA are after more money, not 'saving our conditions'.

ATB and once again good luck.

[loobtastic]

I have just left BA. I was a Purser, of 3 years and a main crew member of 10 years. I loved my job. I left for various reasons.

Lets get the salary stuff out of the way. My P45 tells me that I earned £28k for a 75% contract last year. I have a degree and speak 2 languages, which is common amongst BA crew. I considered that a fair wage. I was out of the country for half of the month and had no control whatsoever over my roster.

BA are one of the only large airlines that do not have a bidding system for their cabin crew. That may be an answer to some of the sickness. I personally dislike New Year, yet, because of my part time week, if I had have stayed with BA I would've had 7 sucessive NY off. I have young children so would prefer Christmas. I was not able to change this.

They have antiquated leave systems, in that you can't request 2 lots of leave in any 12 day period. Both my son's and my daughter's birthday fall within 10 days of each other, so I had to choose.

I applied to become more part time,(bearing in mind that I was an apparent high earner) so that I could be at home more, as my husband was ill and my children at the time were under 6 years old. I was turned down (without interview, which is a legal pre requisite, under the right to request scheme)

As my husband became increasingly ill, I felt that I could not leave him alone with my kids. I ended up being signed off with depression. During this time I was phoned once by my "manager" My husband is now in remission. If I had held a ground job with BA I would have been able to come to work. I could not have left my husband, on his own with our young kids, to leave the country for up to 9 days. BA did not , or would not understand this. EG300 size does not fit all.

I left a job that I loved because I had no other choice. I offered to work on the ground. But BA would not let me as I live near BHX.

[loobtastic]

Can I also say that, there are a few shirkers among BA crew, thre are a few that hate the pax, there are some that hate the way that BA has changed, But, when I was a purser , last year, I would come home and spend at least an hour emailing the different depts about the issues on my flights. That was unpaid. That was because I cared.

We backed the flight crew in their pensions debate.

Some people will say that BA crew are overpaid.

Some of the older ones are, some of the older Captains, engineers, groundstaff etc are too.

The vast majority aren't. I have friends that fly for Flybe and thomson and they don't earn much less than I did.

BTW, I left BA and am training to be a nurse. Worcester uni accepted me without interview on the basis that I had worked for BA. Would they do the same for a Ryanair crew member?

[Deltahero]

Just digressing back a little on the hot debate as to whether or not one can be sacked for AI and the complications that follow.. If it's that plausable, then why don't more companies do it and more importantly (as it has not been their style in the past), why didn't BA do that in 97, the wildcat ground staff swipe card strike, and why then, were only a couple of baggage loaders sacked for crimes of insighting others to strike when they all illegally walked out last year during the GG scrap bringing the entire airline to a costly standstill?
Whilst your comments are probably right, surely, legistically, sacking the strikers may seem like a solution but it's not really a likely course of action because despite what some city slickers may think, replacing an 11,000strong workforce isn't as easy as it sounds. It's not a matter of just nipping down to the job centre and teaching monkeys to pour tea/coffee? Lets not forget the cost of recruitment, uniforming, training, admin costs, legalities of experienced crew members per flight, looking after their most important customers (Club) etc, etc whilst Virgin will no doubt be riding on the back of this with an agrressive advertising campaign to lure BA customers their way as they always do ... and becoming more successful at it everytime we piss off the public. If I were Jo Public, I'd given up on BA years ago!
BA have had a rather dreadful year when it comes to glossy publicity. Can it really, really afford another massive disruption crisis that the airline could possibily not sustain? If the airline doesn't perform, the shareholders don't get their returns and topdogs @ bluewater won't get their fat doshy bonuses .... Isn't that what this is all about? Bottom line ... Money money money? WW can't afford to gamble this way with other peoples money, not to mention what he has to loose himself!
Sorry, but sacking the workforce, yeah, maybe legally they can, but ... I just can't see it? Can anyone convience me I'm wrong?
PS Sorry city slics, don't take offence! None meant. x x :zzz:

Just to let you guys know, you may be determined, but WW is so ahead of the game, it's not true!!
The two baggage handlers Get smart referred to bit the bullet, left BA with a VERY NICE handshake and now work for the T&G. They were both senior reps and without them, the Ramp is now leaderless and heading for oblivion. Think about all the worker-friendly board members and senior managers that have gone, leaving a lean and mean senior management team in place. The pain you think you're taking has already been inposed on the rest of us, and in spite of being tempted to think ' they're stronger than us; let them take WW on', the level of support in the rest of BA is incredibly low, due to fermenting distrust and resentment of Crew by Gound staff. You've looked down your noses just once too much and your arrogant display of playing around on flights ( cuddling, shouting, sloppy service to your ground colleagues, obvious distaste for even serving us, grabbing the best food for yourselves, lack of professionalism, etc. ) is a source of huge embarrassment to real BA professionals.
WW will weather this. He's been advised - our Ramp reps were there - that the cost of the strike will be less than the cost of giving in. Much of the cost has been absorbed as forward booking reductions have already hit us. Your people will suffer badly, and may never recover, and your senior reps may just disappear, just as our Ramp ones did.

[Litebulbs]

Deltahero

Well done for doing WW work for him. Hate your colleage, be jealous of their terms and condtions. It takes your mind off what is really happening to you all! WW mandate is not to grow the product, it is to **** the staff. He is an inforcer and everybody is at risk. People talk about the passengers and how they are being mistreated. Do you think your top table care? Do they 5hite.

It is about maximising profit to the sareholders.

[loobtastic]

At the end of the day the cabin crew are sick of not being listened to. We constantly feed back the state of what's on board, what should be offered to the customer etc.

Does anyone listen?

Does no one realise that to be happy cabin crew is when you have happy pax? We hate it when they're pissed off, we hate delays, we hate it when the catering is **** etc

If the managers could get their act together BA could be great. As I said before, I left BA, I am now a student nurse and now work for Tesco and love the lack of resposibility, no immigration or customs paperwork to worry about.

They actually REWARD their staff. Every month we get rewarded for the mystery shoper vote, the fact that we reduce waste and that we stop the customer queing, by opening more tills. We get 10% of our wage for each of these.

BA have not REWARDED their staff for over 10 yrs, despite the fact that it is a very profitable business. There should be a reward scheme, an incentive, and a flexible rostering system.

[loobtastic]

Lightbulb,
To whom where you refering?

[loobtastic]

Oh yes and BTW they should have me as a top manager!

[Litebulbs]

loobtastic

certainly not you

[Deltahero]

Litebulb
I'm no friend of WW, but anyone who thinks this strike will even slightly impress him is playing into his hands. There are so many other ways to skin a goose, and a lot more ground work should have been done by BASSA reps and Crew to get support from other parts of BA. It doesn't exist - face it and move on.
The Staff travel suspension will be manipulated by WW as the total fault of Crew, and those other staff whose holis will be ruined wont forgive Crew. It's about time short sighted following of BASSA and belief in all the reps predict is seen through. You are playing into WW's hands and we'll all pay the piper.

[loobtastic]

Why would that be ? I have met the BA customers day in and out, I have an excellent record at BA and other airlines. I am a fantastic student. What do you know about me that I and my family don't?

[loobtastic]

Like I said lightbulb hun,

Maybe they could do with someone on the frontline to be a manager. Won't be me. I left. But, people that see the state of the a/c, see the pax being pissed off and see the catering day after day , must be better than someone that has no clue....surely?

[Ghostflyer]

Fred and Cervix,

Thanks for continuing my debate, I was tucked up in bed on my last day off before going back to the grind.

From what I have read, it seems that rather than striking about serious quantifiable issues, the CC have taken the decision to strike mainly on the 'respect' issue. The Managmement have not been very amenable; we'll show them! I work in a non-unionised environment and pretty much all of the things that you are complaining about apply here. Not just to the airline industry but to all large employers. They are impersonal, do not care culturally about their employees and are really only worried about the bottom line. Lack of respect issue from FD to CC is bull****. There are lots of CC that have no respect in the other direction but lets face it most of us get along just fine.

The sickness/air conditioning packs issue is utter hogwash (check out doctors sickness rates). It is a cynical attempt to try and disguise the fact that sickness has been used as a right by CC globally for years. I have sat on crew busses and listened to the girls/guys rebuilding their next month's roster based around their social lives. Not all crew do it, but those that do irreparably damage the image of the entire CC population in the eyes of the management. The reason most FD don't pull a sickie (some do) is that they couldn't bear the thought of screwing a mate. The solution to that problem might be a decent bidding system but even then the 'deadwood' would still take advantage of the situation.

The worry for me is that for the strike to work you have to have public support and stand together. The pay/qualifications issue will be spun, BA will even start comparing Easy/Ryan and BA's conditions.. The other union will still go to work and you will not have a united front even within BASSA. I saw this quote the other day from the BASSA boss:

Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general-secretary, said: "Our members are fed up with being bullied into coming into work when sick and with the divisions caused by poverty-level new entrant pay scales. "They see customer care being cut and the airline's reputation being damaged by bungling management."


I have yet to see true poverty amongst the cabin crew, all the ones I have known (and the one that I married) had a nice girl about town lifestyle. If you go to the facts on the sickness issue you will lose and I think the public right now see the TGWU about to sully BA's reputation, not the other way around.

From my angle, there are 2 reasons customer care is going down hill, industry wide. 1. Cost cutting, everyone is trying to stay competitive. 2. Crap in-flight leadership, on one hand we have CSDs that have been doing the job professionally and enthusiastically for years. Sadly we also have CSDs that as soon as they get promoted spend the next 20 years asleep on the jumpseat.

As to expressing your opinion; remember the old saying "opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink!" Cervix, I wish you well but I don't think you will win. Unless you can win the factual arguments in the weeks to come and gain public sympathy, you are toast.

Ghost

[norodnik]

I, like a lot of my friends, would stand up for BA and promote them always. Now, most of us either couldn't give a shi*te or are down right hostile.

BA has no customer service left except on board. If there is bad weather, a strike, a terrorist alert, all the BA staff (bar a few loyal folks) run for the doors. No one answers the phone, if your bags are lost, so what.

All BA want to do is take your money, and if it all works then great and if it doesn't then tough. I am not suprised the CC have had enough.

As an aside, have you seen the nice terms that BA are offering if you happen to be a poor PAX during the strike. You can change your ticket for another BA flight (should they be running), or go to a different departure point (at your own expense!!!). What a joke, BA must think we all have weeks to spare to swan around just waiting for when a BA flight may run again.

So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees in such a way that they realise that they are running a business to serve customers and by doing that well everyone will benefit, including the mgt, shareholders etc etc

[Flying Fred]

From what I have read, it seems that rather than striking about serious quantifiable issues, the CC have taken the decision to strike mainly on the 'respect' issue. The Managmement have not been very amenable; we'll show them!

Yep, I agree with you. So going on strike will bring them more respect? What will end the strike? BASSA have pressed the nuclear button, contrast this to CC89/Amicus who have the same management.

Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general-secretary, said: "Our members are fed up with being bullied into coming into work when sick and with the divisions caused by poverty-level new entrant pay scales.


Dromey really shot himself in the foot with this comment and WW saw through it straight away. The one thing BASSA are not asking for is more pay for new entrants. They are asking for more increments at the top of the scales, not the bottom.

As you should know by now, I like to deal in FACTS, not opinion based on rhetoric or hearsay. According to the latest available data from the CAA (2005) who should be independant, personnel costs for pilots withing BA are 23% higher than the next highest UK operator (First Choice). With cabin crew, the figure is 60% higher than the next highest (Easyjet). Now before everybody shoots from the hip, these figures include all personnel costs (particularly pensions which in BA are particularly high because of the deficit) but as you can see the cabin crew are still the best paid in the UK by a large margin. I have no problem with them protecting what they have got but BASSAs 12 items will add £37m per year (BA's figures I know, so large pinch of salt) to the IFS budget and into the pockets of CC. The rest of BA is reducing budgets, not increasing them which is why BA is digging in so firmly.

Go back and have a look at BASSA's latest newsletter (post 515) and my attempt to de-spin it on post 529.

Finally I am now off on a long trip with limited internet opportunities so no more posts. I hope this madness is sorted out by my return, although I doubt it.

[Wiggly Bob]

Quote

Deltahero

It is about maximising profit to the sareholders

Isn't that what's he's paid to do as head of an international business. Disagree with screwing the staff to achieve it though.

[Flying Lawyer]

Lets get the salary stuff out of the way. My P45 tells me that I earned £28k for a 75% contract last year. I have a degree and speak 2 languages ..... I considered that a fair wage.
Additional qualifications aren't relevant.
It was your choice to do a job for which the eligibility is 2 GCSEs.


So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees ............
What an intelligent contribution to the debate. :rolleyes:

I'd have thought someone who describes himself/herself as a "Business Consultant" might first carefully consider the issues in dispute and competing arguments so as to be able to make an informed contribution.
Perhaps not? :confused:

[Final 3 Greens]

Additional qualifications aren't relevant.

IMHO, extra languages are for CC in a global airline, degrees etc not.

[foghorn]

So, come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have bought the company and its terrible mgt to its knees in such a way that they realise that they are running a business to serve customers and by doing that well everyone will benefit, including the mgt, shareholders etc etc

Erm, so by bringing the company to its knees and thoroughly shafting its customers in the process, BA will somehow improve its customer service? :rolleyes:

[Flying Lawyer]

F3G

I meant relevant to salary.
BA's requirement to be CC is 2 GCSEs in Maths and English. (No minimum grade specified)

If the pay varied depending upon the number of languages spoken, then it would be relevant to salary.

FL

[yachtno1]

I hope you all realize the pay for CC varies widely. A seasoned CSD on LHR WW can earn over £40k whereas a new recruit at LGW would be on less that £14k.:)

[norodnik]

Erm, so by bringing the company to its knees and thoroughly shafting its customers in the process, BA will somehow improve its customer service? :rolleyes:

well, come up with a better alternative. There is no customer service so nothing to debate there.

When there is a cancer you can let it grow and it will kill you or you can cut it out and hopefully recover. Flying Lawyer misses the point, as most lawyers would, that we all want BA to suceed but since they have lost sight of the goal the war cannot be won.

Ps.
I hear Branson is looking for 4 Jumbo's with crew to cover some of the disaffected BA customers.

[Seat1APlease]

I hope you all realize the pay for CC varies widely. A seasoned CSD on LHR WW can earn over £40k whereas a new recruit at LGW would be on less that £14k.:)



I think most people would agree that it is difficult to live on that sort of salary in the South East but don't forget that salary, and in particular junior salaries are not one of the issues over which the strike is being held, and win or lose then they will still be on £14k.



When going into a dispute you have to have a very clear focus of what the issues are, what you would like to achieve, and what you think you will realistically settle for.



I get the impression that this dispute is an expression of pent-up resentment over various issues, but I cannot see how the strike will resolve them, and I fear that by having a totally unrealistic shopping list, then the gulf will be too wide to even reach a compromise.

[Flying Lawyer]

Flying Lawyer misses the point, as most lawyers would .......
That is, of course, possible, although I don't think I have.

But what I certainly haven't missed is your comment when GMB employees at BA threatened to strike:

Yet another short sighted decision from those at the union seeking their 15 minutes of fame.

Most of us humans are lucky enough to have 2 feet. If the job is so crap, and the pay so awful, why not go somewhere else.

The world is full of in-equality, just because the boss gets paid a bit more is no reason to expect you will too, despite the fact that you may deserve it.

The law of supply and demand dictates who gets what. If BA's ticket prices rise above a competetive level then we won't need the checkin staff anyway, and hey presto they will be out of a job.
A rather different approach from your 'Come on CC, strike for ages and ages, don't give up until you have brought the company to its knees' approach in this thread.

As a "Business Consultant", which approach would you advise WW to adopt in responding to Bassa's demands and those members who support the call to strike?

(Edit)

Would I be correct in assuming that your expertise lies in the engineering/technical aspects of a business?

[Helen49]

As I said many posts ago.....BA staff must enter the real world or suffer the consequences.

First, most realists have known for donkey's years that BA staff had a pretty good deal, certainly in comparison with most other UK Operators. Now they are largely taking the p...!

Second, with the exception of a fortunate few, most people in this industry have taken a fairly severe hit in recent years....not just pay and conditions but their jobs! Low cost for passengers means low income for the rest of us.....airports, handling agents, caterers, individuals etc almost ad infinitum.

Third, passengers have a choice....they will not tollerate the uncertainty of strike affected operators and services. They have commitments, deadlines, recreational arrangements which they wish to keep.....they will, indeed are using alternative carriers. If they find that such carriers meet their needs they will stick with them. Why risk the regular uncertainty and carelessness of BA?

Fourth, do you remember British Leyland, the National Coal Board, the British Shipbuilding Industry, the Steel Industry and lots of other household names either long gone or seriously diminished because they kept holding people to ransom?

Although there will inevitably be some justified complaints amongst the BA CC, (as there are in all industries and jobs), strikes invariably do more harm than good...........as Winston Churchill said, 'Jaw Jaw is better than War War!'.

H49

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Problem as i see it is that BA have made attempts to curb the perceived sickness culture that happens at BA and has gone so far that it's affected the majority of decent hard working crew members who are now scared to go to work with a head cold or blocked ears etc. True, a lot of CC threw sickies to go out, avoid poor money trips, but in that respect also they lost their complete roster so it was a good reason not to "throw one".
I personally don't think that sickness rules and a debate on who works where on the aircraft is enough of a mandate to call a strike. Problem is that BA crew still don't know how lucky they are compared to other airlines. Wife worked for BA and was on a Part Time contract, and earned more then than now on a full time contract!:\

[CFC]

Why is there persisitently on this thread the need to knock BA CC and their present T & C's. The crew are only trying to hang on to what they have already got in the whole.

Its a British thing...to knock those at the top and bring them down to the lowest level.

All other UK CC should be trying to attain some of the T & C's that BA CC have.

Understand that the worlds most profitable airline is continually trying to screw its frontline (and most important) workforce and this strike is a reaction to this.

Also be aware the 20 million BA shares (value approx £75M) that has been put aside to pay the transient bosses huge bonuses does not go down very well with many of the workforce.....

[Boeing Freak]

It is well known that WW is happy to simply slash jobs. If the strikes go ahead he could simply reduce the fleet by about 10 aeroplanes making a load of people redundant. BASSA whats your next move? I'm sure the CC will become dissheartened by being demoted and watching their mates get made redundant. Downsizing could be an option for BA!

[Deltahero]

Quote

Deltahero

It is about maximising profit to the sareholders

Isn't that what's he's paid to do as head of an international business. Disagree with screwing the staff to achieve it though.

Guess you're right, but we all know there's another agenda. I believe Crew
have fallen into a trap here. WW's been waiting for just this opportunity and he's prepared. I just want crew - some of who, let's agree are not upto scratch and certainly not team players with their Ground colleagues - to come to their senses and use more subtle means to achieve their aims without ruining all our lives.
Crew have the undivided attention of senior players, city moguls, major shareholders, senior BA staff, government officials etc. for hours on end up there and can spend time chatting to them ( they're at least good at that ) instead of sleeping. It's worth the loss of one kip to make your subtle and friendly point to someone who can make a difference!
My other half has decided to do just this ( she's CC89 ) in support of her BASSA colleagues but is frustrated at their intransigence.
I can't believe the people who urge Crew to fight 'til the bitter end - they have to be Virgin/Bmi shareholders.

[Finals19]

Having spent 6 years working both LHR/LGW WW and EF at BA, I read this all with great interest. There are certainly a lot of armchair critics here, have neither the inside knowledge nor understanding of the reality of the internal politics and workings of Cabin Services and their associated "managerial" styles...:eek:

What really does irk me though is this persistent comparison to "BA crew have never had it so good, they have t&c's and pay that is echelons above the rest of the (low cost) industry etc etc" (Obviously all these posters are/were crew?!) Well, in some instances I would thoroughly agree that BA crew do get well rewarded for what they do, with some of the best benefits in the industry. But BA is not a "low cost carrier" and is not pitching at that market, so why apply low cost market principles to them? What do you propose BA do? Make their crew more "low cost market (!) competitive" ?
Suddenly your greatest resource to retain business and strengthen your brand are sounding like a commodity.

Now imagine if your advocated strategy was applied to you - be you a pilot, manager on the ground, bus/tube driver (god forbid!) etc etc. How would you feel about being made more "low cost market competitive"??? (sub inflationary increases in salary over the last ten years, dilution of t&c's, sudden loss of promotion opportunity with more 24hr avail) Would you feel de-valued in the eyes of your employer? Would you feel de-moralised? The answer is obvious to me (bring on the transparent moral high ground responses!)

I do not agree 100% with the BASSA list of proposals, and I think a strike should be the very last resort. I also don't totally blame the company, and think BASSA and BA can be as bad as each other, with the BASSA media machine also playing a role in getting crew worked up into a frenzy. They have a very valid point on EG300 though, and the new entrant salaries need to be looked at (reference sub inflationary pay rises)

[Re-Heat]

Where exactly is it "illegal" for cabin crew to fly more than 900 hours per year?
What tosh.

[Final 3 Greens]

FL

What I meant, but on reflection did not say, is that the poster justified his/her salary by quoting qualifications and I could make a connection to the languages, but not the degree.

Whilst BA may set entry criteria of 2 GCSE equivalents, I imagine (certiris paribus) that someone fluent in languages would be more attractive to hire than someone who is not.

Ergo he/she ended up in a global full service carrier, rather than a loco or a charter operation, with a better salary as a result.

Bit "around the houses", so apologies for not making it clearer.

[Artificial Horizon]

I to feel that BASSA is falling right into a trap that little Willie has been waiting to spring. The Cabin crew agreements need to be changed in order for BA to remain competitive with other airlines. BASSA have made a big mistake by not showing any willing to negotiate in the past couple of years, there should have been some pro-active approaches made to the company to start negotiations before a strike ballot was issued. What BASSA have done now is provide Willie with an ideal opportunity to break the union. I truely believe that at some point in the next day or two Willie will announce a complete stop in the commercial flying program at BA starting on Monday, aircraft will still be moving around the network to keep them in the correct place and to solve the problem of not enough room at LHR to park up. There will be no return to work for Cabin Crew on Thursday, Willie will keep the airline grounded (in passenger terms), with the exception of a few wet leased services until the crew are pleading with him to be allowed back to work. Willie sees this as his one opportunity to take a short term hit in order to completely restructure old and tired agreements. Why have the negotiations in the last week collapsed..... because Willie doesn't want them to suceed. Who can blame him really, average of 24 sick days a year is just taking the p*ss, why did BASSA agree to the new sickness policy only a year ago, could it have anything to do with the £1000 the company paid to each crew member. Watch this space, it is going to be an interesting couple of weeks.

[Megaton]

BA may not be a low-cost carrier but neither are the comeptitors with whom our CC supervisory levels were compared. Somebody talked about looking after our customers. Is that what this is about? Hardly! CC object to fixed links and operate a scheduling agreement that frequently disrupts services because of slightly late arrivals. The irony is, of course, that they are very keen to operate to their industrial agreement on scheduling but not so keen on EG300 to which they also agreed (and were paid).
Buses? Been said before but commuting is a lifestyle choice and I can't remember seeing it written that BA would contractually agree to provide a bus service so people can commute to work. So although never contractually obligated, you're demanding that the company provide buses. Funny old world but I thought it was my responsibility to get to work - not the company's!
Cat payments? Bin 'em. Proposed fixed link payments? You are joking, aren't you? Retaining all those CSDs for absolutely no reason? Well, why not let's have flight engineers and navigators back.
More fixed links -> buses and drivers can be used to get people home in the evening rather than shuttling cc to the Cat Lounge or the CC for however long it takes to "eat at table."
Is BA a commercial company or a welfare service? Oh, stupid me. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Deltahero]

Artificial Horizon - you are so right, yet BASSA reps either can't see it - or won't as they need to flex their muscles occasionally, and we who are knocking our pipe out at the sharp end, will suffer. We've been saddled with EG300, and didn't get a penny for taking on this admittedly harsh system.
While Crew are at home or picketing or Waitrose shopping, ( or GOING SICK! ) we'll be dealing with the wretched scenario of more lost bags (interline) and more terribly upset and let down passengers, all vowing to avoid BA in the future.
Crew are being so badly led and advised on this occasion; it's obvious to everyone else that you're leading your colleagues down a one-way slippery slope.
Get real!!

[reverse thruster]

great, great post about the busses, if thats the case, why dont we scrap all the busses that BA put on to get to Waterworld, Cranebank etc.? that way everyone can get public transport to their location of work, because there is public transport to all of them, maybe a bit inconvenient for some, but hey, ho, as long as it saves the company money. any suggestions?

[Megaton]

Thank you. I though so too.

[reverse thruster]

so i take it you agree that all the commuter busses should be scrapped, i mean after all, its not in anyones contract of employment that they will be layed on?

[Megaton]

You are sooooo missing the point. You have been balloted on strike action on something which has never been contractually agreed. I don't really mind whether the company lays on buses or not but you are talking about massive disruption to our customers over trivia. Trivia which, by the way, the company has already agreed to re-instate. Unfortunately, however, that's not good enough because your leadership is not looking for resolution but confrontation. They want "respect!" Again, this doesn't appear to be any contractually binding demand to which the comany could accede.

[atyourcervix73]

Its so nice to see others verbally sparring, I'm worn out :8

[Megaton]

Me too :-) BA management are a bunch of sh1t5. Good luck. Hope your action achieves something useful for you all.

[doubledolphins]

Latest Rumour in Jubilee House (LGW) Willie will shut BA down tonight untill 16 Feb.

[gdiphil]

I am only SLF and therefore only pay BA employees wages, nothing special I know, but I control who I fly with when travelling on business and obviously do so when flying for personal reasons so I have an interest in this strike. In effect I am stakeholder in the business. It strikes me that BA CC employees have missed a very important point. If I were WW I would welcome a strike from CC. I would dismiss all those on strike without exception. I would then (over time obviously) employ cheaper people from eastern Europe, from India, from SE Asia, from China, from South America, from Africa and from the Carribean who would want to be associated with such a valuable and prestigious name as BA. And I would base them in their own countries and pay them local rates. Truly a world airline then. Please bear in mind that I know nothing of the merits of this strike, nor do I care frankly, but I do care about the service I get from the company and the individuals I interact with (they are different). And I have to say that I think there is a problem with both in BA at the moment, and in short that problem is that I am regarded as a nuisance that gets in the way of getting aircraft from A to B. I suspect WW knows that the problem is systemic throughout the customer interface and is well aware that it needs to be fixed.

[Megaton]

Fantastic - looks like I'll dodge a night DME!

Edited to point out that we'll be losing money as a result of the cc action - thanks, chaps! :{ :{ :{

[X-Centric]

Why is there persisitently on this thread the need to knock BA CC and their present T & C's. The crew are only trying to hang on to what they have already got in the whole.
Its a British thing...to knock those at the top and bring them down to the lowest level.

I couldn't agree more. Some of the comments on this thread are shameful coming from crew from other airlines. Instead of endeavouring to improve your own conditions you secretly hope that the BA CC can be brought down a peg or two! Tell me: what the hell does that achieve for the industry as a whole? Oh great, everyone's Ts & Cs are now total crap, there's no where to aspire for a career. :ugh:

BA have manipulated the sickness figures: they include maternity as 'sickness' to strengthen their case & manipulate the statistics to prove that their most valuable customer service staff members are swinging the lead. If they want to make savings then they should get rid of several layers of useless, self-important (or should that be impotent) managers.

My wife works as CC for BA. Three months ago she had her first bout of sick leave since December 2001 & had to undergo minor surgery, she was quickly calling in 'fit' for work: the way in which she was treated was absolutely vile, beyond belief for a company of BA's alleged standing.

WW, wake up! You have a top heavy management & a spiteful gay mafia who are making a total cock up (no pun intended) of leadership, & inspiring their crew. :yuk:

Good luck to the BA cabin crew for aviation industry's sake.:ok:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Where exactly is it "illegal" for cabin crew to fly more than 900 hours per year?
What tosh.

REHEAT - Try the working time directive, this has already caused chaos at Easyjet for one :\

[ORAC]

BBC: BA walkout delayed for 24 hours

The start of a planned strike by British Airways cabin crew has been postponed for 24 hours, the T&G union has announced. The union explained that the move would allow more time for talks.

[manintheback]

Whether the Union move is to try to keep BA manegement off balance or not who knows. Personally as a passenger could I request WW just shut the damn operation down now and give us our money back so we can rebook elsewhere.

[Jordan D]

BA delay walk out for 24hrs - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6295029.stm

Hmmm ... wonder what effect this will really have.

Jordan

[Finals19]

Whether the Union move is to try to keep BA manegement off balance or not who knows

Perhaps this is a goodwill gesture on BASSA's part and a move to symbolically put the ball back in the BA management's side of the court. I think this is a good sign - lets see how it works out shall we. BA need to recognise this gesture. This is also no doubt a public relations move for the unions, in light of the image being portrayed by the BA press office.

[arem]

<<Perhaps this is a goodwill gesture on BASSA's part>>

Why do I think not!

[Golden Ticket]

Or perhaps it is to do with the fact TGWU turned down BA's offer of independent arbitration. Perhaps the independent minds at acas would have banged both sides heads together, somebody should.

[M.Mouse]

Norodnik wrote:
Flying Lawyer misses the point, as most lawyers would.....

What a crass statement! FL is probably the person LEAST likely to miss the point. At least his posts are grammatically correct and he can spell.

CFC said:
Why is there persisitently on this thread the need to knock BA CC and their present T & C's. The crew are only trying to hang on to what they have already got in the whole.


Because BASSA is not trying to 'hang on to what they have already got' but trying to improve an already good package while resisting overdue and needed changes to archaic working practises.

atyourcervix said:
Its so nice to see others verbally sparring, I'm worn out

And very nice it is too now that we are not subjected to your unfounded, widesweeping clichéd rants which you consistently failed to qualify when challenged.




How magnanimous of BASSA to postpone the strike by one day now that we have caused those passengers due to fly that day to book elsewhere or change their intended date of travel.

Surely they aren't looking for a face saving climbdown?

[wiggy]

Is it now a two day strike next week ( Tues, Wed) or still three days ( Tues, Wed, Thurs)?

[atyourcervix73]

And very nice it is too now that we are not subjected to your unfounded, widesweeping clichéd rants which you consistently failed to qualify when challenged.

(its not like you to play the man :hmm: )

Its also nice to see your snippy, and poisonous commentary.....very nice indeed:D

I am particularly impressed at how you can singularly fail to accept that there are those who have a different viewpoint to you in a debate. You are a rare breed indeed Mr Mouse, and I can only hope that one day, after much practise, I shall be able to plumb the depths of your septic views on such issues:ok:

[egbt]

Is it now a two day strike next week ( Tues, Wed) or still three days ( Tues, Wed, Thurs)?
2 days (BA Web site) but that means I can't reschedule my flight on the 6th to the 4th as the available seats are kept frozen till tomorrow (at least) :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Artificial Horizon]

I have heard that when BASSA made this 'announcement' of a delay to their strike action, 'willie' was on the verge of announcing a series of flight cancellations starting this evening with the view of having the whole fleet grounded by the weekend. This seems to me that BASSA is trying a last ditch PR stunt knowing that the writing is on the wall for them. The announcement has now been delayed until tommorrow afternoon. I personally think that BASSA is on the run, the company are refusing to negotiate and are just saying 'we can last without cabin crew longer than cabin crew can survive without pay'. BASSA have backed themselves into a corner and seem to be taking all of their members into a very dangerous confrontation. This confrontation could possibly be justified if the reasons for the ballot were big enough issues not the bunch of meaningless tripe backing this action.

[woodpecker]

My wife checked in early on a Sunday morning with a young chap who suggested he felt awful. She felt sorry for the chap who had only been on the line for three weeks and had gone sick the previous weekend so felt he could not go sick again.

The loads were light so he was found a seat at the back of the airbus and slept for most of the two sectors. The rest of the crew, feeling sorry for him, basically shared is duties.

On returning to Heathrow, while on the crew transport to the carpark, she commented that he looked much better. He replied that he did indeed feel better after getting some sleep, especially as he had been out at a gay club on Saturday night and had returned home with only just enough time to put on his uniform prior to leaving for the early check-in. My wife in no uncertain terms suggested he was very lucky they had left Compass as if they had still been in the building she would have marched him up to a manager to explain his actions.

The problem is a small proportion of cabin crew have been taking the rest for a ride for far too long. They join to be part of a hard working crew but just look after number one.

[Ancient Observer]

What is the current betting within BA about
1/ The future of lhr and lgw based S/H routes after a strike?
2/ The salary of the top BASSA official, (which is rumoured to be the highest in the T&G?
3/ The 2007 BA CC sickness rate coming down to the UK norm of 4 days?

thanks
a (currently ex-) customer

[Hotel Mode]

I suspect the real reason for the postponment is that one of the BASSA reps has a HKG or SIN on Mon.

[pax britanica]

I may be affected by the CC strike but I do think some posts here are very unfair on the CC themselves. I am sure there are working procedural issues that are a bit arcane and need sorting out that peopel do not want to give up on but why on earth would anyone expect airline cabin crew to have the same sickness rates as the UK average. How do you feel 'Mr Angry Pax or ex-Pax when you have got off along haul flight . how would you like to do it every week . I know some people do that sort of flying (I have myself at times) but they do get paid a great deal more than most CC and I dont have to stand most of the way either.

It is very sad trend in this country to assume that management are always reasonable and staff are always rabid luddites. I mean we have wonderful management in UK dont we er . BP, Railtrack. Fairpak, the Banks, etc etc as in everything some are good and some a not good.

This is a difficult situation for all and I hope common sense prevails on both sides and the cabin crew leaders do relaise they need to give a bit to keep the airline competitive and Mr Walsh remembers his job is moving passengers not proving how tough he is and seeing if you really can get the entire BA fleet into LHR at one time.

PB

[Rainboe]

atyourcervix- I have kept out of this 'discussion' (rant) and 'the Mouse' has spoken consistently common sense and put the position as I see it. It seems superfluous to comment. Artificial Horizon puts is so well too. You are undoubtedly heading for a fall. The motivation to drag you out seems to be some old 70s TGWU political dogma, and you will all be the casualties. Your strike will fail as the majority chicken out- dismissals will be widespread until enough chicken out that the union will be broken. A totally daft basket of non-motivating excuses to strike. All in the cause of refusing to update working practices, as if CC are so powerful that you cannot be attacked. Well those days are gone, everybody is sick of the ease with which CC disrupt the operation, often seemingly out of simple bloody mindedness. Time to come up to date!

[Golden Ticket]

I think your closer to the truth Hotel Mode though I can't imagine the BASSA reps have done much flying of late, mind you I'd like to have seen Willie recalling all the aircraft over the next few days and having a lock out.:eek:

[atyourcervix73]

You are undoubtedly heading for a fall

Rainboe, this is truly disconcerting news, I thought BALPA (my union) had reached a tentative agreement with BA:ok:

Oh well :8

[Andy_S]

why on earth would anyone expect airline cabin crew to have the same sickness rates as the UK average.
I don't think anyone has suggested they should! Only that they are, perhaps, excessively high (flight crew, as has been pointed out, have significantly less sick days on average). And do you REALLY think that cabin crew stand for most of the duration of a long haul flight?
Mr Walsh's job is running a business - efficiently and profitably. That includes keeping control of the overheads and using the workforce productively.

[Finals19]

Rainboe, this is truly disconcerting news, I thought BALPA (my union) had reached a tentative agreement with BA


LMAO!!!!!!!! Nice comeback atyourcervix73...bet you that put Rainboe to bed!!!! :D :ok:

I don't think anyone has suggested they should! Only that they are, perhaps, excessively high (flight crew, as has been pointed out, have significantly less sick days on average).

Tests have proven that air with a relative humidity of less than 30% has a tendancy to harbour bacteria and viruses. Any idea what the RH levels in the cabin are compared to the flight deck anyone?

[Deltahero]

Actually Finals, I don't think the comeback was all that great; Rainboe obviously thought AYC knew so much about everything that heshe was Crew. We seem to be suffering from a lot of aircon experts here, somehow linking air to health and health to the action, as though EG300 is all the strike's about. The strike is about T&G heading for an amalgamation with another union and trying to be top dog by using old fashioned and highly dangerous methods. Just as T&G reps bully on the Ground, they're at it in the air!
Do you know what the rule is for CC89 recruitment - don't!!! T&G have all the aces as usual, but sadly their over confidence is going to badly injure some fine people, be they Crew, Ground staff or - wait for it - our fare paying customers.

[Hotel Mode]

Of course the real gotcha on sickness is not about flying with the punters causing more illness its that not only do other airlines have lower sickness rates but even within BA they vary from 4.6% at LGW to at 7.7% WW LHR so you cant blame the environment entirely.

[Hot Wings]

After a 10 hours on the 744 the humidity levels are less than 10% - and thats in the flight deck. Since the humidifiers were deactivated there have been lots more flight crew having sinus infections, etc...

[Heliport]

Interesting post from the discussion in the CC forum today -



The more I hear/read, the more annoyed I get. Most Yes voters don't even know the reasons why they said yes. I've been on to the bassa forum, where I got such a bashing for having a different opinion. The behaviour of the members of that forum has left me so disgusted that I'm now leaving bassa because I felt bullied by my so-called colleagues (so much for them being bullied by management). By one poster, I was told "nobody likes you, nobody cares about you, why don't you just F*** off?". So much for being adults, eh?

I can't believe these people may lose me my job.

[Finals19]

We seem to be suffering from a lot of aircon experts here, somehow linking air to health and health to the action, as though EG300 is all the strike's about

Well, if you did a little research into it, you would see that there is a definite link...backed up here by Hotwings...

After a 10 hours on the 744 the humidity levels are less than 10%

And thanks for the advice, but my life is great as it is - no need to get a new one...:ok:

[Deltahero]

You're right Finals. Your life is great. What a shame it's about to go down the pan along with mine and a lot of good folks. You've had the good life, and thanks for your help here, for too long at the expense of the rest of us. Now get realistic, don't be conned by bad reps; read the messages, not just the convenient ones, and realise that your support is close to zero within our airline community, and among our fare paying customers.

[Captain Sensible]

I believe the time for Strikes, especially in the aviation industry, has long since gone. The only way is negotiation, negotiation, negotiation, then compromise, then, if all else fails, arbitration by a competent appointed judge. Heaven forfend that, one day, we have a government that felt it had the strength to declare that Air Travel was an "essential industry" and therefore any strike action relating to it would be unlawful. In the meantime, we can all see that this will not end well; there will only be losers, there will be no winners, and what is astounding that the contestants in this struggle refuse to see this and leave no stone unturned to try to find a solution.

[RRAAMJET]

Capt S. : essentially where we're at here in the States with the Railway Labo(u)r Act....

Impasse over management bonuses, etc....:rolleyes:

All this nonsense over cabin humidity/ flight-deck have it better air than us/positive pressure behind the door....oh pleeeeze.....what utter claptrap.
As a long-time long-hauler on 777 and 744, I'm asking you to give it a rest and look for more creditable stuff that might win the propaganda war with the public, other than smoke/fumes prevention measures in the design.

There's plenty of worldwide management intransigence and self-patting-on-the-back to go around. All this "flight-deck have it better than us" idiocy is unprovoked and is playing into the hands of those who would rather 'divide and conquer'.

[pax britanica]

Andy S

In response to your comments about my views on Cabin crew sickness Iwas merely remarking on an earleir post which showed thata couple of years back CC sickness was at a very high level , it had come down a lot but the UK average was syill some way below that implying thatas this remains an issue that where the target was.

And no I dont think the CC stand up all the way to HK but they are on their feet for a fair rpoportion of the time often in close proximity to maybe 400 pax at least some of whom will have flu colds etc etc.

As for Mr Walshs job , yes of course he has to look after the shareholders but typically their axpirations as expressed through the board are relatively short term and financially focussed . I was just making the point that if you run an airline one of the many factors he has to balance is keeping the outfit operating. To me as a regualr BA customer and a shareholder he gives the impression that it isn't just the Union side who seem a bit to keen to 'take this outside' rather than talk.



PB

[Artificial Horizon]

So I see that the talks have broken down again and next weeks strike is going ahead. No suprise there then, Willie wants it to go all the way....... BASSA, you have been played and have given the company exactly what they want... a one off chance to break the back of your union and introduce new agreements. You should of been negotiating much earlier rather than playing childish games with the company which ultimately has put all of your members livelyhoods at great risk. Good luck on the picket lines.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Again WRONG WRONG WRONG....My average take home pay (and I have been longhaul for over 3 years) is between 1400 and 1700....My housemate is Virgin crew and sometimes gets more than me! Dont be fooled.
Sorry I know this was posted a while back but you are complaining about earning 1700 quid a month take home after 3 years in the job? And you are complaining you can barely get by - suggest you re-evaluate your spending. If you think you are not well off you deserve everything you have coming.

[plodding along]

Re sickness:

Oh for heavens sake, I keep flying with crew that run down EG300 with the "I've only been sick once in the last 5 years so why should I be penalised if I get sick twice in succession etc etc"

1:So many crew seem to have not been regulary sick that it blows the "we work in a virus filled environment and are always ill" argument out of the water.

2: 22 days is an average, for all the crew who are sick a lot less there must be crew who are sick a lot more to get that average figure. They need addressing.

3: Even if you do trigger EG300 you are NOT disciplined, you simply go for an interview to justify your salary while being at home and to be offered any required help and support. Just because the company wants to see you does not mean you are being bullied and forced to work while sick.

Sure you meet people with colds, I have two kids, they always get colds, I go to playgroups and nurseries where they all have colds. If I get one I go sick, if and when I trigger EG300 I'll go in and tell them about my colds. They are not trying to get me, they want the p1ss takers, and so they should.

EG300 is not nice but it's what we agreed to and it works.

[AbeamPoints]

I think Mr Walsh is a clever man, experienced in breaking entrenched unionised resistance who has actually worked on the front line. I think he correctly perceives that BA is at a significant junction. T5 about to happen with its new working practices, a massive new aircraft order imminent and the industry still parlous and certainly perceived as being 'stricken'.


Now is the time to lance the boil of BA cabin crew militancy and lavish terms.


A strike in February is the best time from managements point of view

A strike over a rag tag clutch of grievances are the best to fight a strike action over.

A strike at a time when you could comfortably reduce headcount is ideal.

A strike when strikers are facing their Christmas credit card bills and rising mortgages suits management.


This strike will crumble. After that happens management dictate peace terms. In the longer term this will be a price worth paying for BA. A good cabin crew member is worth about £20k, same as a new teacher or nurse. A senior one on a wide body is maybe worth £30k. That is about it.

Cabin crew driving large Mercs on £59,000 a year just isn't on anymore.

And I know two.

Sorry.

AP

[chasb441]

Ok then. It now seems the strike is to go ahead (for the first part anyway, albeit 2 days). There seems to have been few comments from the 'Traveler' in this thread so I thought I would add mine. I work in the industry (Engineer) and work away from home. I only get 3 holidays a year and have always flown BA whenever I could. Each time I have there has been some sort of problem or delay. Aircraft serviceability, weather (not BA's fault I know) strikes etc. the list goes on. This airline is really stuck in the 70/80's with there mentality and indeed working practices. The traveling public are just being held to ransom yet again and I believe many BA frequent flyer's will take there custom elsewhere. Why cant the management and CC resolve there differences without having to resort to a strike and completely destroying there, up till now, loyal customer base?? My next trip home will not be with BA :ugh:

[Flap33]

Well said AbeamPoints. The points you make spot on. I too work for BA and throughout the last 12 months just about every department has had to make changes and sacarfices.

Our cabin crew, despite what they claim, are some of the best paid in the WORLD. CSDs earning upto £60K (more than some Flight Crew!) Pursers earning more than £30K, Main Crew earning £20K. lets compare these salaries to teachers/police/nurses... It just doesn't stack up.

On top of all this, BASSA has spun a web of un-truths.. BASSA is leading their members into a fight that the CANNOT win, listeneing to Jack Dromey it's very easy to see that it isn't negotiation he wants, it's CONFLICT. The 1970s mentality of his approach is amazing.

I feel for our crew, many of them are good friends of mine. Now is the time for them to realise that they need to wake up and see that BASSA have grossly mis-judged the reaction of WW. I recently spoke to crew who were convinced (by BASSA) that WW would not let the crew strike, too much bad PR.

Well he will let you strike, he will break you and you will be considerably worse off as a result.

[the heavy heavy]

flap 33,

very well put.

i to feel very sorry for what awaits our crew. am presently down-route and am stunned at the niavity being displayed by some of the cc.

they seem almost certain that ww will fold and give them what they want. more money, same T&C's forever, more days off, they are truly deluded.

i have no doubt that somebody is in for a big shock on tuesday. the cc seem to think it's going to be ww, i've got a feeling it's going to be the cc.

[Finals19]

Now get realistic, don't be conned by bad reps; read the messages, not just the convenient ones, and realise that your support is close to zero within our airline community, and among our fare paying customers.

Massive over-assumptions in your statement(s) Deltahero - be careful not to jump to conclusions about my position, where I work, and which unions I support / affiliate myself to.

Still, if a good rant makes you feel better...:ok:

Cheers.

[M.Mouse]

From BASSA:
T&G's offer to postpone our strike as a final and last gesture of goodwill, gave Willie Walsh a further 24 hours for the opportunity to finally address our problems - and to save disruption and inconvenience to both crew and our customers. This opportunity has been lost by the Chief Executive. There simply was not sufficient desire or will to try and reach a deal. He has not changed his stance significantly on one single item.

He refused point blank to even talk about pensions. His late night offer did contain some movement on EG 300 albeit with a sting in the tail, and he suggested we use the upcoming pay talks to self fund 4 increases in new contract salary.

We may receive criticism for even trying, but T&G/BASSA committed that we would explore every single possibility and that industrial action would always be the last resort. We have tried our very best and more, but there will be no negotiated solution at this moment, they simply do not want one. Even the skills of Jack Dromey (Deputy General Secretary) could not conjure up a breakthrough.

Willie Walsh would prefer to put this business on a confrontation course with the cabin crew community. We have continued to try, to the point when even the patience of a cross wearing saint would be stretched!

Our dates for industrial action remain and will now commence on Tuesday 30th January at 00.01 until 23.59 on Wednesday 31st January.




In response from BA:
FROM: Willie Walsh, Chief Executive


Despite intense discussions that ran late into the evening, I regret to
inform you that the T&G trade union has informed us that it intends to
still go ahead with its strike action, starting early next week.

The T&G has confirmed to us that it will call upon its cabin crew members
to strike on Tuesday, January 30 and Wednesday, January 31 as well as
February 5, 6, 7 and again on February 12, 13 and 14.

We are bitterly disappointed that the T&G has refused to respond positively
to the serious proposals we have made, choosing instead to confirm a
48-hour stoppage for next week that will wreck the travel plans of hundreds
of thousands of our customers.

Let me be clear, the T&G did not need to take this action. You can see for
yourselves from the attached letter we gave to them this evening that the
T&G had, and still has, every opportunity to call off this strike.

We have accepted the T&G’s proposal to improve the application of the EG300
absence management policy. We have also put forward a solution on pay, as
part of our upcoming wage round. Despite these positive approaches, the T&G
has rejected our position out of hand.

We must now do what we can to mitigate the impact on our customers. Later
today (Thursday, January 25), we plan to publish details of the flight
programme we plan to operate on Tuesday and Wednesday of next week, and
intensify our efforts to help people whose flights will be cancelled
because of this unnecessary and unjustified strike.

If the T&G is serious about solving this dispute peacefully it should turn
away from confrontation and support our approach to Acas in a bid to find a
breakthrough.

And:
Mr J Dromey
Deputy General Secretary
Transport and General Workers’ Union
128 Theobalds Road
Holborn
London WC1X 8TN



Wednesday, January 24, 2007




Dear Jack

At this critical stage in our negotiations, I thought it would be helpful to clarify the airline’s position on the two crucial issues that have been the focus of our discussions during the past 24 hours, absence and pay.

On absence, the company is prepared to accept the proposal put forward by your representatives today to improve the application of EG300, with one minor exception relating to the definition of good attendance. We would propose utilising 24 months rather than 12 months.

On pay, the company will convene a joint meeting of all the bargaining groups in order to commence wage negotiations, which will then take place in the individual National Sectional Panels (NSPs). At the cabin crew NSP, our proposal will be to use part of the mandate to address your key claim for an extension to the incremental pay scale for main crew who joined after 1997.

I believe this represents a way forward that allows you to call off the two days of industrial action in the week of January 29 and the three days of action in the week of February 5, as we have discussed.

Yours sincerely





Willie Walsh
Chief Executive"

[hapzim]

BA and the Cabin Crew both lose out with a strike. But think of poor old Gordon Brown and the loss of all those passenger taxes. At least it will give an iceberg 2 mins more life with no flights going.:E

[Heliport]

Just in case any non-UK readers aren't familiar with the reference to 'Acas' in BA's letter -Acas = Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service.It's an independent body governed by leading figures from business, unions, independent sectors and academics. It became a household name (and earned a lot of respect) in the days of industrial unrest in the UK from the late 1970s to the mid 1980s.It offers neutral advice on ways of dealing with disputes, a conciliation service (a 'go-between') and a full arbitration service in which it gets the opposing sides around a table and acts as a neutral third party in discussions in an attempt to avoid a strike. The procedure is voluntary: Both sides have to agree to refer a dispute to Acas.__________________


Does anyone know why Bassa refuses to accept BA's proposal to refer the dispute to Acas?

[Deltahero]

Finals, I'm sure you mean well, as do most who post, but if your take on my trying desperately to convince Crew to wake up and smell the future is a 'good rant', then that's OK by me.
We're in trouble; deep dudu. It's so obvious on the sidelines ( long service BA worker, Crew partner, 2 lovely kids, huge mortgage, old car ) that Crew are stumbling over an edge here, and it's SO POINTLESS!!!!!
They ( or you ? ) are being so badly advised from a TU that has a huge alternative agenda, and the result will be absolutely awful for all of us. This doesn't mean that there is no sympathy for 1, or at a stretch 2 of the demands, but there is NO support for a walk out.
My title 'get real', refers to the fact that sadly Crew are truly unrealistic about their pay and conditions. Although our social life is peppered with Crew, and my partner is a purser, I genuinely believe that they have been totally feather-bedded for far too long, and those who have seen real life before crew, agree.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Hit the nail on the head there Deltahero. As I posted earlier some people are not on the same planet as the rest of us if they think they are poorly paid and over worked. I can’t see why the CC are going to strike to be honest. The difference between what they are asking for and what they are being offered is not such a big deal that it is worth losing their jobs in my humble opinion. But hey I’ve been out there working in the real world for 20 years so what would I know? In fact I’ll swap my job for a CC job for a while if they’d like. I may earn a bit more but I work a damned sight harder for it I can assure you.

[Jordan D]

BA will cancel all flights ex LHR and all Euro/Domestic flights ex LGW on Tues & Wed next week

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6297059.stm

From BA Website:
British Airways will not operate any passenger flights out of London Heathrow from 0001 GMT on Tuesday January 30 until 2359 GMT on Wednesday January 31 due to a planned strike by the cabin crew branch of the Transport & General Workers Union. All domestic and European flights to and from London Gatwick have also been cancelled.


The strike action will also impact services into London Heathrow and London Gatwick on Tuesday 30 January and Wednesday 31 January.


The airline remains committed to pursuit of a negotiated settlement before next Tuesday but wants customers to have early warning of its flying schedule to allow sufficient time for alternative travel arrangements to be made.

Jordan

[Hotel Mode]

They're strinking because BASSA told them to.

If you dont work in BA the hold BASSA have over the crew is difficult to understand. Their first point of contact is BASSA not the company. As an extreme example I landed in BKK about 90 mins after the coup, who do you think the crew rang first. Cabin Crew management? BA Security? Foreign Office? British Embassy? No BASSA (because obviously know about the situation on the streets)

[AbeamPoints]

Bottom line. Most of you are worth £20k tops. A few are worth up to £30k.

The generous staff travel (giving away the product) the pensions and the general sense of being professionals will all have to go. You are workers, not too dissimilar to cleaners or check in staff.

You don't like it I know. But your 'profession' is jaxed. This is your waterloo. Prepare to lose. Its your own militant fault and that of your union. The pilots and BALPA have managed their similar decline much more favourably.

BASSA are led by people with less than 24 UCAS points.

Cheers

AP

[wiggy]

Guys
unacustomed as I am to public ranting.....
There's been a lot of talk of BA crew being "above the average", especially when it comes to pay or days off.

Just a reminder, by it's very nature somebody always will be above the average and, IMHO, as the flag carrier. their T and C's should be above the average.... as for sickness, I'll get my ( white) coat.

Regards from the "blinkered Fl;ight Crew"

[Vortex what...ouch!]

They're strinking because BASSA told them to.
If you dont work in BA the hold BASSA have over the crew is difficult to understand. Their first point of contact is BASSA not the company. As an extreme example I landed in BKK about 90 mins after the coup, who do you think the crew rang first. Cabin Crew management? BA Security? Foreign Office? British Embassy? No BASSA (because obviously know about the situation on the streets)

That would certainly explain the intransigence of the cabin crew when anybody looking in from outside can see a strike in this case is not necessary. It will all end in tears and it really doesn’t have to.

[M.Mouse]

The generous staff travel (giving away the product)

Without wishing to hijack this thread I am afraid the truth regarding staff travel is rather different. It is a wonderful benefit but it is often unusable (e.g. the Far East most of the year, standby staff ticket holders are usually left behind) and, certainly for domestic flights, often more expensive than a full fare ticket on Easyjet!

[silverelise]

Question from an interested curious observer here - since BA have cancelled all flights, how does a non striking CC indicate their intention to work if they are rostered that day? Is it a case of turning up and sitting in the crew room for some thumb twiddling practice? Or are there other things that can be done?

[Deltahero]

M.Mouse, I agree that staff travel is a side issue and ours is poor compared to other airlines, but as I've had to cancel our annual knees up ( which is our main holi -unable to get summer off!! ) along with many others, Crew are going to come across a lot of bitter staff when they return to work. Their stock at work isn't great anyway, but it's about to plummet.
Oh how I wish they would get real.

[anotherthing]

Pay and conditions are always an emotive subject - no one ever thinks thet are paid enough (I know I don't think I am!) but having read the posts here, some stating the average number of sick days taken by CC (which is well above national average), and post number 657 by flaps33, I think that CC at BA are extremely well paid for what they do.

A CSD on circa £60k? Pursers on £30k. You also get fringe benefits to boot..... Time to wake up and smell the coffee I think.

The general public see you as nothing other than airborne waiters/waitresses.. 99.99% of the time, the job you do requires no thought process, no decision making. Dole out the food, flog duty frees, do a 5 minute safety brief. I think you will find that you are extremely well paid... higher than the average shop assistant.

Wiggy - BA is flag carrier in name only and only because of historical reasons. I would wager that BA is not the 'worlds favourite airline' that it claims on adverts; it's service is no better than any other non low cost carrier, and a hell of a lot worse than lots of other national carriers (not neccessarily down to the CC in that instance, but the service standards they are expected to provide).... it has a high proportion of pax on some routes because of the slot allocation at UK airports.

Merely being the national flag carrier is not a valid reason for giving employees better pay than other carriers - it does however behove the airine to provide a passenger service standard comparative with other flag carriers - which it falls far short of, especially when the over inflated prices BA charge to get any decent standard of service are taken into consideration.

This move will further damage BA's reputation, which will, in turn come back and bite it's employees

If, as Heliport states, BASSA are not even interested in speaking to ACAS; then BASSA are screwing their membership i.e. the CC who pay them subs to do a competent job; out of money. BASSA are not following a recognised procedure, they are going straight to strike action.

When you CC are manning your picket lines, just remember that ACAS could have possibly prevented all this.

Worth remembering even more is the fact that while you are on strike you will not be paid. While you are on strike, you do not pay (nor does the company) anything into your pension... your pension fund becomes degraded, you length of service for pension purposes becomes affected. Think about the knock on effect of your actions... the BASSA leaders (who urge you to strike) will be taking their pay home with them whilst you do not!!

[atyourcervix73]

Anotherthing...

Dole out the food, flog duty frees, do a 5 minute safety brief. I think you will find that you are extremely well paid... higher than the average shop assistant.

An observation yes, but not reality:= CC are not shop assistants...just as flightcrew are not bus drivers:=

I'm also interested anotherthing in this comment......

especially when the over inflated prices BA charge to get any decent standard of service are taken into consideration.

This move will further damage BA's reputation, which will, in turn come back and bite it's employees

If we flip this around, then surely if the staff exceed service levels and expectations, they would be entitled to an improved set of T & C's?

Worth considering perhaps?

[Tosh McCaber]

Hate to say this, but I hope that the CC realise that they will be taking part in a lottery in the next few weeks- as to who will be retained by the company, and those who will lose their jobs. This will be an inevitable result of the strikes- no matter who “wins.”

[Finals19]

Bottom line. Most of you are worth £20k tops. A few are worth up to £30k.
Fine. I take it you are quoting "other industry comparisons" with the above salaries. In that case, BA flight crew should be worth £74K tops for Captains and £44K tops for FO's - source: Easyjet. You are advocating cost saving, so am I. You advocate crew at BA are doing the same job as crew at EZY. My reasoning is the same. I assume you are flight crew?

The general public see you as nothing other than airborne waiters/waitresses.. 99.99% of the time, the job you do requires no thought process, no decision making. Dole out the food, flog duty frees, do a 5 minute safety brief. I think you will find that you are extremely well paid... higher than the average shop assistant

Unless you are crew, work very closely with them, have been crew, or are flight crew (in which case you should know better than to post such stuff) you really know nothing and your above diatribe is pure speculation on what the reality of cc's duties are. You are forgetting another situation that the crew are there for, and believe me, on the rare ocassion that such a situation arises, its amazing how the passengers suddenly look to YOU to save their skins.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I take it you are quoting "other industry comparisons" with the above salaries. In that case, BA flight crew should be worth £74K tops for Captains and £44K tops for FO's - source: Easyjet. You are advocating cost saving, so am I. You advocate crew at BA are doing the same job as crew at EZY. My reasoning is the same. I assume you are flight crew?
But the pilots are not threatening to strike and are not currently being squeezed for further economies, CC are.
you really know nothing and your above diatribe is pure speculation on what the reality of cc's duties are. You are forgetting another situation that the crew are there for, and believe me, on the rare ocassion that such a situation arises, its amazing how the passengers suddenly look to YOU to save their skins.
Exactly the point the public simply see you as super waitresses, it’s a fact even if its an uncomfortable one. Your last point is correct of course but hey how many times in your career are you likely to have to do that bit? Probably for most of you never!!!

[atyourcervix73]

Your last point is correct of course but hey how many times in your career are you likely to have to do that bit? Probably for most of you never!!!
I take it then Vortex, you will be cancelling all your insurance policys from today onwards:ok:

[Hotel Mode]

In that case, BA flight crew should be worth £74K tops for Captains and £44K tops for FO's - source: Easyjet.
Nice try but you have conveniently excluded allowances and their annual bonus scheme. Not to mention quicker promotion meaning high paypoints for FO's arent required. Please compare with VS where top captain salary is just over 100000 and they do less hours and have better allowances. I realise then youd have to compare BA/Virgin Cabin crew salarys which may prove inconvenient.

[anotherthing]

atyourcervix

If services were exceeded then yes, Ts and Cs should be amended accordingly. However this is always going to be a comparison game. The standard of service is dictated by the company... the CC carry that out. Other Flag carriers by comparison provide a better service... therefore BA cabin crew are overpaid... by the very definition you just posted.

Finals19

I have several friends who were CC, I understand what the job entails.... for the length of training, the recruitment process etc - they are very very well paid (the two verys are not a typo, they are an amplification). Yes if on the rare occasion the poo hits the fan, then CC earn their money... are they worth more than nurses etc who are trained to a higher degree and who deal with emergencies on a much more regular basis? Are they worth more than a squaddie walking along a street in downtown Basra, on £13k a year? The simple answer is NO!

However that is the simple answer - we are not all paid as we should be and direct comparisions should not always be made as they are unrealistic (I mean c'mon, David Beckham is going to get £490k a week - but what does he do in real world terms?). Maybe you do deserve better pay or Ts and Cs - however the 12 point bulletin put out by your union as laughable....

I am a member of the public insomuch as I am not Cabin Crew or Flight Crew. I am in the industry and work bloody hard. I am well educated so know there is more to this than simply meets the eye. Unfotunately, it seems that as well as keeping it's members in the dark, BASSA is making a very poor attempt at giving the public a reason to support CC. This is a union who's leaders will continue to be paid whilst you strike, a Union who you pay to support you in the best possible way. Causing you to strike for a dozen or so weak reasons, without even referring to ACAS, a professional arbitration body, when the opportunity is there, is a dereliction of BASSAs duty to its members.


You are in a public service industry..... the public will be the ones who ultimately decide what happens and how the company will recover. I know that CC are not glorified shop assistants or waiters (I put that in to get some response, as it seems a lot of CC to date have been led up the garden path by BASSA, it's time they thought and fought for themselves)... however 98% of their job is mundane and simple... the other 2% happens on an irregular basis.

Now you have some fire in your belly, why don't you ask more questions of your union, who takes your money? It appears that they are leading you astray. Bear in mind that about 80% of the UK population takes its politics etc from rags such as the Sun... these are the people that also pay your wages, these are the people that will leave BA and look elsewhere.

BA is no longer the airline that all others aspire emulate. I think that for all his faults WW knows this. It's time some of the employees understood this as well.

[Finals19]

Hotel Mode..

Damn, a direct hit! :eek:

Your points are duly noted Hotel Mode. I shall retreat to the bunker to re-convene my strategy :O Nicely put though. :ok:
Cheers.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Sorry Cirvix I was not having a go per se - I think anotherthing says it much better than I can.

[Flying Lawyer]

atyourcervix73

I'd no more want to fly in a large airliner with vending machines instead of CC than I would in an un-manned airliner flown by computers because there are some emergencies in which the CC have a literally life-saving role, but surely the " reality:= " is that most of their work by far is equivalent to serving food/selling items which millions of people do on the ground for a fraction of the money?
They have to spend time away from home, particularly on long haul, and there is a risk element in flying which doesn't exist in a restaurant or shop, so higher pay (within reason) is justified.
What do you say are the other differences which distinguish CC from people doing the jobs mentioned?


"If we flip this around, then surely if the staff exceed service levels and expectations, they would be entitled to an improved set of T & C's?"

But their T&C's are already considerably better than CC working for lo-co lo-service airlines, better than other mainstream carriers such as Virgin, and amongst the best in airlines worldwide.
Are you suggesting they are entitled to even better T&C's if they provide the level of service that they are already being paid to provide?


Finals 19

You dismiss anotherthing's opinion with "you really know nothing and your above diatribe is pure speculation on what the reality of cc's duties are."
I don't offer a percentage, but isn't it true that by far most of CC work is as he describes?
If (as you claim) he is wrong, why not correct him with what you see as the facts?

[atyourcervix73]

Lawyer,
The CC remuneration package is a function of all the points you highlight, as well as the current industrial situation, and perhaps the local cost of living etc...
As to the reality, well that surely comes down to your own personal opinion doesn't it?
In my role I am aware of any number of scenario's that can end in disaster, I am also aware that for the vast majority of situations, there is a reasonable outcome. If however we lived in a world devoid of risk, we wouldn't account for insurance or assurance policies and the like.

The REALITY is the percieved level of risk IMHO, in an aircraft that level of risk can increase in an exponential fashion very very quickly, CC are paid to mitigate that to some extent, my view then is that there is no valid comparison that can be made with shop assistants

Are you suggesting they are entitled to even better T&C's if they provide the level of service that they are already being paid to provide?


No, I said if they exceeded service level requirements, BA does measure on a regular basis its customer satisfaction levels.


Note, the TGWU are very quiet this morning, I wonder have they overplayed their position?

[WeLieInTheShadows]

The 6 LH routes opperated out of LGW that WILL fly will probably be ATL,DFW,IAH,ANU,MCO, and KIN.

The current routes opperated by SFLGW.

Suprised they even bothered to cancel the domestic and euro stuff.

[brush]

Lots of posts by people who have no knowledge of any facts, but have strong opinions, generally based on obvious prejudices towards B.A. cabin crew.

The wage increase proposals are only for crew on the 'new' contract, who are not paid massive amounts. The proposals are for increments over a period of time, and not a huge jump overnight, to match those on the 'old' contract. In other words the proposals offer a future in the company for crew, who have have there wages capped at £15k basic, after 10 years of service.

[M.Mouse]

I believe that the mass cancellation of services is to prevent the 'will it won't it' operate scenario and all the uncertainty and chaos that generates.

The fact that CC are being told to report as normal for their duties (unless deciding to strike that is) would indicate that the master plan is coming along nicely.

[SR71]

Forgive me for butting in....

Can someone just post CSD/Purser/CC payscales on this thread (old or new, whatever) so we can see once and for all what it is everyone is (to some extent) arguing about, and lets face it, what most people see this debate is about? (Rightly or wrongly I might add....)

BA Pilot pay-scales can be found on this site so no-one need be in the dark on that account (I'll happily re-post them if you can't find them), but we seem to be in the dark regards the various pay-scales of the CC.

To an outsider (i.e., non-BA) , some of the figures cabin-crew are reported to earn are staggering....whereupon rocking the boat in the fashion they intend seems a very strange move indeed in the day and age of Ryanair and Easyjet....

:\

[trolleylad]

May I ask what relevance the sexuality of the crew has to this forum or to your arguement? Perhaps your blatant homophobia is a view best kept to yourself. And as a 'gay steward' with BA I am glad you fly with other carriers where possible as we dont need or want your custom.






No relevance whatsoever. The post has been removed.
Heliport

[galliano2001]

I don't work in the airline industry whatsoever, though grew up in a household where my father was a pilot and mother a cabin and then ground crew staff member, so am familiar with the industry.

What i can't belive coming from working in consultancy is that the average number of days sick for BA cc is 12 days. That is just incredible, to put that in perspective in my Plc, our average sick days accross all staff is just under 4 days per annum. (circa 2500 staff).

12 days is bordering on local authority levels of laziness, how on earth do the cc expect to be taken seriously when those figures indicate that the vast majority pull sickies as though they were holidays?

No sympathy with the CC whatsoever, if our staff called in sick for that many days without a serious medical condition they would be looking for a new job sharpish.

Just a view from outside the bubble.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

What abou the LGW main crew who work with less crew and less rest than LHR crew, doing the same service on the same config aircraft?

Their pay caps out below 15K. No proposed increase for them?

Same applies to PSR's and CM's.

If this post 97 pay increase BASSA proposes is passed than would mean that a post 97 main crewmember (I joined post Jan 97 but have opted to stay at LGW), would be on the same basic as me as a cabin manager.

Fair? No.

At LGW we have a mainline contract (since 2002) and are part of the NSP (Dated back to OCT 2006).


However still no increase in OUR basic pay or increments mentioned anywhere.

So much for brothers in arms as BASSA likes to preach.

[Bluejay]

The flying schedule currently planned for the strike period is:

· Operation of some longhaul services into London Heathrow as crew down-route are expected to work as normal
· No shorthaul services from or into London Heathrow
· No shorthaul services from or into London Gatwick
· Up to six daily longhaul services (out of the normal nine) from London Gatwick
· Operation of the Manchester to New York JFK daily service
· Operation of all flights by subsidiary BA Connect
· Operation of all flights by British Airways franchise partners to and from UK (GB Airways, BMED, Loganair and SunAir)
· Operation of all flights by other carriers (including oneworld Alliance partners) that have a BA codeshare flight number.
· All dedicated freighter services will operate as normal


Hope this helps

[brush]

Not sure about all the different scales, but after 10 years my basic wage is 15k, of which 13k is pensionable. As far as current pay negotiaions go this is the issue. I, along with everyone in my situation, has never had the opportunity to apply for promotion to Purser, despite managemnet stating several years ago, that this would be the way to break out of this wage cap. Having hung on in the hope that this opportunity would come around, new proposals(taking off of u/d Purser and extending the flying career of existing Pursers by 10 years), reduce the possibilty in the near/medium, even long term to, zero.

[M.Mouse]

trolleylad

You are in danger of provoking the very sentiments you obviously don't wish to hear.

brush

I think we all understand that your basic pay is £15,000 but, as you are anonymous, would it be too impolite to ask what your average gross variable pay (meal allowances, working one down payments, long range payments (LH), bar commission, reduced turnaround time payments (SH), etc. amounts to?





Post edited by Heliport

[WeLieInTheShadows]

My basic as a CM is 19K. 14,500 is pensionable.

I've been for promotion twice, and got it.

My pay will be not much better than yours.

I now have no where else up the tree to go at LGW. So my pay will go up in £500 increments for the next 6 - 7 years and then it stops.

So as someone who works as part of the service and in-charge/supervises 9/10/11 crew over 4 cabins, should my pay not be discussed or improved also?

It's double standards. And LGW crew are sick of it.

[AbeamPoints]

£15k basic plus a pension plus about £4k allowances is utter LUXURY. Ryanair already have senior cabin crew members on less than that with no pension doing 6 sector days with 180 odd pax per sector. And they have to sell food, drink, gifts and other services on a commission basis. And they have no union recognition. And they don't get paid during training. And their sickness monitoring programme makes yours look like watching the Teletubbies eating toast.

I say again - I know of at least two BA cabin crew who have E class Mercs and make £59k+ a year. THAT is what is not sustainable and THAT is what Willie will destroy by means of this strike. About time.

AP

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Not sure about all the different scales, but after 10 years my basic wage is 15k, of which 13k is pensionable. As far as current pay negotiaions go this is the issue. I, along with everyone in my situation, has never had the opportunity to apply for promotion to Purser, despite managemnet stating several years ago, that this would be the way to break out of this wage cap. Having hung on in the hope that this opportunity would come around, new proposals(taking off of u/d Purser and extending the flying career of existing Pursers by 10 years), reduce the possibilty in the near/medium, even long term to, zero.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but if after 10 years my career had not moved on and I was on 15k I would be moving elsewhere. Indeed after 5 years with the same result I would have legged it.

[Andy_S]

Having hung on in the hope that this opportunity would come around, new proposals(taking off of u/d Purser and extending the flying career of existing Pursers by 10 years), reduce the possibilty in the near/medium, even long term to, zero.

I know this sounds harsh, and I truly wish it didn't, but BA don't exist for the sole purpose of creating promotion opportunities for cabin crew.

[galliano2001]

[quote=trolleylad;3088905] And as a 'gay steward' with BA I am glad you fly with other carriers where possible as we dont need or want your custom.

This is the problem with staff who think they run the company, who on earth do you think you are saying BA dont want or need his custom?!

In all jobs you have to deal with cretins every day (im not defending this guys moronic homophobic post), and just smile and get on with it. I have several clients who are rude, obnoxious individuals, but as they are clients and i represent my company i smile and act like a proffesional and take their money!!!

If i turned round to my director and said we did not need client X's money because he was a loathsome individual i would be shown the door. Some of you guys need to get out of your union protected lives and come and try hard edged commercial work where if you dont hit your profit margins you are out.

[atyourcervix73]

Abeam

£15k basic plus a pension plus about £4k allowances is utter LUXURY. Ryanair already have senior cabin crew members on less than that with no pension doing 6 sector days with 180 odd pax per sector. And they have to sell food, drink, gifts and other services on a commission basis. And they have no union recognition. And they don't get paid during training. And their sickness monitoring programme makes yours look like watching the Teletubbies eating toast.

BA CC don't work for RYR:rolleyes: thats the whole point!
If we go around comparing salaries it becomes a pointless exercise, which I think I tried to cover previously. In the end you start comparing apples with eggs, where does it start and where does it end?
BA operate aircraft with club class, RYR dont
BA offer a full service and various meal/beverage options are included in the price, RYR don't.

They are two separate organizations. Airlines from company to company have similarities, but in essence are unique in the way they apply policy. I can't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

Edit: Sky now reporting TGWU are saying sickness is the issue, all the rest are peripheral.

know this sounds harsh, and I truly wish it didn't, but BA don't exist for the sole purpose of creating promotion opportunities for cabin crew.

Couldn't agree more Andy, well said.

[Not my job mate]

I have one observation to make regarding the drivel that BASSA is putting out to the media.

"Our members are fed up with being bullied into coming to work when sick, and with the divisions caused by poverty levels of new entrant pay scales," he said. (Jack Dromey, T&G deputy general secretary)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6285177.stm

Are you not a little bit embarresed to be saying that new starters are on POVERTY pay scales. Do you know what POVERTY is ? If it means you can't afford that little 4 bedroom detatched just outside Henley then yes I suppose you are on the POVERTY level and should be paid more so you can live the life you think you are owed by BA .
If however the meaning of POVERTY is ; "A minimum income level below which a person is officially considered to lack adequate subsistence and to be living in poverty. Also called poverty line." then I think you can assume that the vast majority of your fellow workers in other depts of BA and the GB public will see you for what you are....GREEDY and SPOILT

[Bluejay]

I have remained quiet on this subject for too long now, I am BA staff on the ground and I am therefore nothing to do with this ridiculous strike action. Whilst I am a T&GWU member I won't be for much longer.

1) trollylad - wind your neck in, what gives you the right to determine who flies with us?????????????? (Now heres the simple bit - no passengers no job!!!! think about it)

2) To the rest of our Cabin crew colleages - what gives you the right to jeopardise the careers and livelihoods of all the other staff in the airline.

3) I am bound by the same conditions as you by the sickness policy, I do understand that you can't fly with a cold, but that doesn't stop you reporting to work and trying to arrange a temporary work placement for the duration (I know it can be done because it has been done)

4) I also joined the company post 1997 and I am therefore stuck (I don't like it any more than you) at the top of my scale, with might I add no further increments! But hey thats when I joined the company so I have no choice.

Back to basics guys, no passengers means no jobs, not just for you but for the rest of us. I suggest that you all think long and hard about the effects your actions will most likely have if you go ahead on Tuesday, you have made your point, don't screw with everyone elses lives.

:ugh:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
If the cabin crew succeed in bringing BA to its knees either by costing the company a fortune in cancelled flights or by chasing away planeloads of customers, especially those in Business or First, one might reasonably conjecture that a lot of BA cabin crew would be jolly glad of a job with Ryan in the not too distant future?:confused:

[brush]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but if after 10 years my career had not moved on and I was on 15k I would be moving elsewhere. Indeed after 5 years with the same result I would have legged it.

But not without a fight. Maybe I was naieve to believe what I was told, but I won't just skulk away, when it's clear the proposals are workable.

To other posts about the "luxury" of my situation, compared to other airlines, I don't see this as a race to the bottom.

And no, I know that 59k+ wages are not sustainable, nor do I ever expect anything like that (although you have exaggerated, but hyperbole is always good for an immotive discussion).

As far as allowances etc go, I believe they are just that, I certainly don't rely on them, nor plan to build a life on them. If I am expected to consider these as aspects of my wage, then why not give me the security of scrapping them, and increasing my basic wage the relevant amount. But of course, that would increase pension costs for a start, and more importantly would take away the scope to reduce these allowances in future (not that I have a cynical view of the management strategy).

[frangatang]

When are the cc going to realise that BA doesnt really want crusty old sun dried cc that are just going through the motions,paid well over £50000.Get em in get em out,just like virgin.You will never compare to the likes of singapore airlines who leave the cabin in tidy shape at all times.Ba leave it as a tip,expensive headsets on the floor(which you are meant to pick up by the way),rubbish everywhere etc.Oh and the punters might like to realise that everytime the aircraft is late on arrival the cabin crew are on overtime,and a vast overtime it can be too.Knowing that most longhaul flights are in fact late ,this adds up to a considerable sum! you cannot change the mindset of this group of premaddonas,bar ditching the lot.

[TopBunk]

As far as allowances etc go, I believe they are just that, I certainly don't rely on them, nor plan to build a life on them. If I am expected to consider these as aspects of my wage, then why not give me the security of scrapping them, and increasing my basic wage the relevant amount. But of course, that would increase pension costs for a start, and more importantly would take away the scope to reduce these allowances in future (not that I have a cynical view of the management strategy).

because, dear Brush, if they incorporated your many variable pay elements into your basic, cabin crew would then be being paid even more when off sick for 22 days a year. I know it's chicken and egg, but the company will be reluctant to incorporate variable pay into basic until the cabin crew community prove themselves not to be swinging the lead so much. What is variable pay running at these days on longhaul, 100% of basic on an average month?

[Finals19]

atyourcervix quotes:

If we go around comparing salaries it becomes a pointless exercise, which I think I tried to cover previously. In the end you start comparing apples with eggs, where does it start and where does it end?


Totally agreed. Different product, brand, level of service, type of operation. And apparently it doesn't ever end AYC, the comparison continues to Police officers, nurses, squaddies :confused:

Frangatang:

Oh and the punters might like to realise that everytime the aircraft is late on arrival the cabin crew are on overtime,and a vast overtime it can be too

Oh, so are are thoroughly familiar with box payments, ETP rates and long / non long range flights I take it Frangatang? Please tell me you're not another armchair spectator making blind assumptions?

[SNasty]

Don’t believe that you are winning the public over if this is anything to go by: -

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5392&&&edition=1&ttl=20070125143009 (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5392&&&edition=1&ttl=20070125143009)

..and before you say it's because they are speaking from an informed but personal point of view without a true grasp of the issues at hand, my sport this week has been asking CC crew to list me 4 of the 12 issues over which they are striking and to explain 2 of them in detail, few winners people, very few winners.

Be careful, just because BASSA write something in big red font on their web site it doesn’t make it a true reflection of the law. My fav being the "you cannot be sacked for striking" one. If you want the facts on this particular statement do go see the DTI web site. You may also like to research the 27 security staff sacked three hours into their official TGWU strike in Belfast airport, official until the union announced the day after that it wasn’t an official strike after all…!!! (The investigation into that one continues, but the poor chaps are still sacked)

Strike if you feel strongly about the issues, but do try to know what they are and also please have a factual understanding of the real legal implications also, do that, and you have my support. Want to be a sheep and I’ll wear you as a cardigan....

But, good luck either way. Me, I’m completing a CC89 membership form over a nice cup of coffee and a Marlborough.

[Roadster280]

Perhaps it would be in the interests of the shareholders to liquidate the airline, sell its assets and be done with it, rather than have to deal with incessant industrial unrest.

It would certainly be in UK plc's interest, as it would send out the message that striking is a very Luddite form of thinking. See lessons from railways, coal, shipyards, docks, British Leyland(!!) etc.

What was the Peugeot unions' response to plans to close the Coventry factory, rather than invest in yet more overcapacity? Strike! Durrrr.

Why do people not learn these lessons?

[trolleylad]

Bluejay, Mouse

The underlying tone to Phils original post (now removed I think) was that he would rather fly with x.y,z airlines rather than with BA as his last experience consisted of a crew with ' 85% gay stewards......mincers ' which was affecting the airline.

I was simply pointing out that I (and many others) take offence to such random comments and as such would rather not have to deal with someone with such outdated opinions on my flight.

I am not a BASSA member and I share many of the views of the posts on here that many of the demands of BASSA are unrealistic. I actually hope that WW does take on the union as my LHR collegues (am LGW based) then face the prospect of working to a set of T & C's that we at LGW have had implemented for some time now.

Yes I feel a strike will be detrimental to our business and of course realise that we need to retain our customers. However I do object to the nature of ones sexuality being used as an arguement on these forums.

Apologies for my previous post not being explained properly

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Bluejay, .....mincers ' which was affecting the airline.
I was simply pointing out that I (and many others) take offence to such random comments and as such would rather not have to deal with someone with such outdated opinions on my flight.
Hate to burst your bubble but most people couldn't care less. You have chosen to take offence because you are gay. People are ignorant and rude all the time - its called life - get used to it or move into a job which doesn't involve dealing with customers. I'm not in any way supporting those comments but to say you want to turn customers away because someone is ignorant shows your complete lack of business accumen. And to be going on strike and risking the business you work in because some people take too many sick days is ridiculous.

[Flying Lawyer]

atyourcervix73
I accept your 'insurance' reponse. (By coincidence, I made it in a discussion in one of the other forums recently.) How much the insurance part of a package should cost is obviously a separate matter. If my insurance company demands too much in premiums I look for another source.

Do you happen to know what proportion of CC training relates to learning emergency procedures as opposed to the customer service aspect of the job?

Note, the TGWU are very quiet this morning, I wonder have they overplayed their position?I think they may have.
Refusing BA's repeated offer to take the dispute to Acas is either a blunder or, given the nature of their demands, maybe they dare not take the risk of independent arbitration.


Comparisons irrelevant? I can't see why this is such a difficult concept to understand.
Not understanding and not agreeing are different things.
eg I understand your argument, but I don't agree with it.

[SR71]

AYC73

BA CC don't work for RYR thats the whole point!
If we go around comparing salaries it becomes a pointless exercise, which I think I tried to cover previously. In the end you start comparing apples with eggs, where does it start and where does it end?
BA operate aircraft with club class, RYR dont
BA offer a full service and various meal/beverage options are included in the price, RYR don't.

Surely this is a little myopic?

Let's give WW some credit (much guffawing in the galleys no doubt!) and advance the suggestion that indeed his task to endeavour to cut costs is an attempt to make BA (even) more profitable in a cut-throat industry where the LOCO wolves are snapping at its heels.

It seems clear to me that the macro-economic reality is that BA does have to look to reduce its costs, regardless of its legacy, I-serve-hot-dinners-in-First status in order to compete because O'Leary isn't about to hand out generous T&C improvements to his staff irrespective of which side of the flightdeck door they sit/stand.

The European world is going to be Orange, Blue and Yellow in 10 years.

I have no idea whether BA have a profit share arrangement in place, but such schemes seem emminently reasonable. The idea? When the company makes money, so do the employees.

Simplistically, if WW suceeds in reducing the cost-base by 10%, profits increase 50%, and the scheme returns 20% to its employees, there is no net loss to anyone, correct?

And everyone is happy except those who have been used to getting something for nothing....as it were.

:ok:

[TopBunk]

A senior management person told me yesterday, that during the talks between BA and BASSA that went on late Tuesday evening that there were 'cracks starting to appear' within the BASSA ranks.

We live in interesting times, for sure.

One item of interest being that the BASSA reps are part-paid by the T&G, as a function of the number of members the union has. They therefore have less to lose than the people they represent. If I were cabin crew I'd be very concerned at the analogy with the First World War where, as seen on Blackadder, the generals sat back and sent the troops over the tops to their certain deaths. BASSA, lions led by donkeys?

[atyourcervix73]

SR71
Surely this is a little myopic?

I don't believe so, despite some of the crass arguments made on this thread to the contrary, BA actually offer a service that is value for money. If that seems hard to believe, take a look at the on-board customer satisfaction survey data that BA produce (if you work for BA you can access it via the intranet).
From a pure market perspective, BA are effected by low cost carriers that is without doubt, they do however have several competitive advantages, LHR's location being one of them (or disadvantage!) the ability to offer connections, carrier alliances, and frequent flyer programmes. Don't also forget that in the vast majority of cases if there is disruption..BA as a matter of contractual obligation (in most cases) will rebook, hotac, or put you on another carrier. This is something that is not the case with Lo Co carriers as a rule.
Another point that is missed when the shorthaul EU market is viewed in isolation, is the fact that passengers are returning to full service or premium service carriers because they are offering a superior product at price level not far from the likes of EZY and RYR.

So myopic is not the word I would use.

Simplistically, if WW suceeds in reducing the cost-base by 10%, profits increase 50%, and the scheme returns 20% to its employees, there is no net loss to anyone, correct?
If that were the case it maybe relevant, but it is meaningless in the present context.

[anotherthing]

Finals19

are you unable, or just cannot be bothered, to read people's posts properly?

to quote your last post:

Totally agreed. Different product, brand, level of service, type of operation. And apparently it doesn't ever end AYC, the comparison continues to Police officers, nurses, squaddies

I assume this was in response to part of my post


are they worth more than nurses etc who are trained to a higher degree and who deal with emergencies on a much more regular basis? Are they worth more than a squaddie walking along a street in downtown Basra, on £13k a year?


Which I quantified in the very next part with


The simple answer is NO!

However that is the simple answer - we are not all paid as we should be and direct comparisions should not always be made as they are unrealistic



Atyourcervix

BA CC don't work for RYR:rolleyes: thats the whole point!
If we go around comparing salaries it becomes a pointless exercise, which I think I tried to cover previously. In the end you start comparing apples with eggs, where does it start and where does it end?
followed by


BA operate aircraft with club class, RYR dont
BA offer a full service and various meal/beverage options are included in the price, RYR don't.

Make your mind up!! Are we comparing services or not?

For both you and Finals - you make a big point about not making comparisons. I agree partly - you cannot compare 2 disparate jobs and try to say one is worth more than the other e.g. to keep it simple for Finals - a squaddie versus CC.

You can even push it to say you cannot compare RYR with BA. The reasons why you cannot given by Cervix were


BA operate aircraft with club class, RYR dont
BA offer a full service and various meal/beverage options are included in the price, RYR don't.



So, OK I have an couple of issues with that -

The fact of the matter is, you are trying to say you are providing a better service than RYR and therefore you should (as indeed you are) be getting paid more than RYR CC.

firstly - BA CC are in general, better paid than other Major airlines CC that provide a similar or far superior service

secondly - you both bleat that you cannot compare RYR with BA. Again I will quote from Cervix

BA operate aircraft with club class, RYR dont
BA offer a full service and various meal/beverage options are included in the price, RYR don't.


Yet Cervix - in your post (number 674, on page 34) and Finals in your post (number 676, on page 34) you say respectively:

An observation yes, but not reality:= CC are not shop assistants...just as flightcrew are not bus drivers:=


Unless you are crew, work very closely with them, have been crew, or are flight crew (in which case you should know better than to post such stuff) you really know nothing and your above diatribe is pure speculation on what the reality of cc's duties are. You are forgetting another situation that the crew are there for, and believe me, on the rare ocassion that such a situation arises, its amazing how the passengers suddenly look to YOU to save their skins.

So whats it to be guys - your now saying that you should be paid more than RYR because you provide food in the price and a Club class option....

Actually, whether you provide food included in the price or not has nothing to do with you, apart from the fact you may have to hand out more meals than on an airline where they do not come as standard.

So with that statement you are saying you should be paid more because you dish out more food??!!!

Yet in Finals quote he/she claims there is a lot more to CC than waiting on people (which of course, there is).... are you trying to imply that RYR CC do not take their safety duties seriously?

Or Cervix - with your quote about Club Class service in mind are you implying that Club Class get better help than standard in the case of medical emergencies etc (Rhetorical question - I hope), or if not again the implication is that LOCO carriers do not take safety as seriously as BA!!

Your arguments in the above respects are flawed.... little wonder BASSA has such an easy time convincing people to strike without even trying a recognised arbitration procedures.

Hell, I am not management, I am not a union bod, but if I can pick holes in CCs arguments for better pay as easily and as quickly as I have, real businessmen like WW (and despite the fact he may be a slime ball of a manager, he is a real businessman), will shoot you down in flames.



Top Bunk


agree totally, as I said in my previous post, whilst the CC strike they lose pay and pension contributions - the union leaders continue to get theirs.... this is the natue of unions and sometimes it is right - a strike for the right reasons is worth the sacrifice and the union leaders who call for it are correct.

However in this situation it seems that BASSA want to take on WW in a willy waving contest, the losers being the CC wh are being misrepresented. CC can survive without BASSA - it does not work the other way round though... maybe something the CC should take more heed of.... they (the CC) are the true masters in the union/workforce relationship - it is they (the workforce) who have the final say.

[atyourcervix73]

Anotherthing..
secondly - you both bleat that you cannot compare RYR with BA. Again I will quote from Cervix

Well quite simply, you can't. Its not a valid comparison.

So whats it to be guys - your now saying that you should be paid more than RYR because you provide food in the price and a Club class option....

In pure pounds and pence, YES they do deserve more pay than RYR(which is what happens presently), the BA level of service adds value, it adds brand recognition, and allows the company, the marketing people, and public to DIFFERENTIATE. Thats branding 101, a concept WW understands (I read somewhere he was discribed as a businessman:hmm: )

Or Cervix - with your quote about Club Class service in mind are you implying that Club Class get better help than standard in the case of medical emergencies etc (Rhetorical question - I hope), or if not again the implication is that LOCO carriers do not take safety as seriously as BA!!


In a word No, thats an assumption you've made up all by yourself.
Perhaps Anotherthing you'd like to reconsider your argument?:=

BTW, I'm a humble First Officer:ok: and if you read what I've posted previously
1. You would see that this strike isn't about pay
2. I'm am keeping an open mind on the "actual" issues.

[Crash_and_Burn]

Just to clarify something that has been said earlier on this thread....

I have managed to "hack" my way into the Bassa website and fourm. I've been posting away happily, mainly against the bassa position and questioning thier tactics, and so far none of my posts have been censored or removed..

So I don't think BASSA are censoring thier fourms, but then again maybe I haven't been nasty enough!!

Either way it's great fun, sort of like living in the 70s with the internet!!
:cool:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Not so sure about all that really.
(Dons fare paying passenger hat.)
Booked BA LHR/JHB/LHR to travel in the next few weeks. No problem out but on the way back the date is strike struck (as things stand at the moment). BA can only offer flights either five days before or ten days after original booked date of departure ex JHB. Balancing ten days in JHB against the cost of a one way business ticket back on any other carrier, the flight wins. Lufthansa get the contract. KLM could too but they are really awful.
Just booked a middle east carrier for long haul travel in April. Their cost for two in first was the same as for one with BA.
No point in this really except to try to illustrate the possibility that BA are becoming not worth the effort and this in spite of the fact that the golden cheetah has a BA Gold Card. At the upper end of the travel market there are just too many really civilised ways to fly without parading through this sort of nonsense.
Time was when BA really were the finest and in terms of flight crew they may well still be. Nonetheless, many will choose to go elsewhere, especially once they have sampled the services available on other carriers.:ooh:

[Seat1APlease]

This argument is getting dafter and dafter. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests that crew of the same rank working in club should be paid more than those working in economy because the food is better. This dispute isn't about money, it isn't even on the agenda of items to be fought over.

There is one item there which has been badly handled by BA, and that is the sickness procedure, and with a bit of common sense they might stand a chance of improving it.

Now whether they would be better having a set of meetings to discuss it sensibly, assisted if necessary by an independent advisor such as ACAS or having an all out strike is only something which the CC can decide, but I don't see how they will get a better offer after losing the company several millions than they will before.

[SNasty]

Time was when BA really were the finest and in terms of flight crew they may well still be. Nonetheless, many will choose to go elsewhere, especially once they have sampled the services available on other carriers.:ooh:

A point that I often make to my CC PSR partner, she (like I suspect will be the case with other CC) does not fly with other carriers and fails to realise that BA are not that special these days. Add the strike, baggage, catering dispute, forthcoming T5 nightmare (will it be anything else?) and the argument to keep BA'ing gets very slim. (Well, it's gone for me as it happens)

[atyourcervix73]

This argument is getting dafter and dafter. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests that crew of the same rank working in club should be paid more than those working in economy because the food is better. This dispute isn't about money, it isn't even on the agenda of items to be fought over.

Here here! :ok:

[anotherthing]

Atyourcervix

I am more than happy with my argument... the safety one was a rhetorical question i.e. tongue in cheek and I knew the answer was no. Hence r-h-e-t-o-r-i-c-a-l.

It was used as another way of highlighting how weak the argument is..... if LOCOs provide and care for passengers safety in a similar manner to BA, then by association, BA CC want more money because the things they do differently from the likes of RYR is - and I paraphrase- "provide food as standard and operate club class".

Therefore, where in all this is the Sun reading public supposed to get beyond the misconception that CC are flying waiters/waitresses/shopkeepers/maids/houseboys?

I agree in part that you cannot compare LOCO CC with a flag carrier CC. However, you can compare like for like more readily. Having flown a few airlines, IMHO BA does not stand well against similar competition, in fact, it performs poorly.

This is in respect to what standard and premium class passengers get for their money. This is not the CCs fault, it is BA trying to get by on it's name, not it's level of service.

Therefore - pound for pound (because you said I can) BA CC are overpaid in comparison to other airlines. Either that or all other airlines are underpaid.

The strike is about Ts and Cs (pay is part of this). BA CC are not worth more than other equal airlines. Other airlines manage to crew their cabins, so it seems to me that BA are paying above the industry standard.

Simple argument, but in a business world it makes 100% sense.

[Flying Lawyer]

The attempts by some to avoid comparisons with the earnings of CC in other UK airlines is entirely understandable.

In my job, when the other side points to an inconvenient comparison, we 'seek to distinguish it'.
That's legalspeak for 'Oh ****! I'll need to argue that's different and no comparison.' ;)

[rmac]

Atyourcervix

If you are a humble FO, I hope that you are far up the seniority list not to be let go when the airline has to restructure as a result of a downturn in business following this action.

[helimutt]

BA CC Have to be the most miserable bunch of Airborne whingers i've ever had the misfortune to have to fly with. Try any other airline and at least you'll probably get smiles for starters. BA CC need to wake up and smell the coffee. Go on strike! Hopefully you'll end up sacked and lessons will be learned when the Union leaders get to keep their jobs and fight another day.

22 days off sick per year? No justification there at all. In 16 years I have taken 9 days off sick!! And that was working for periods of 24hrs a day on call and up to 5 months at a time. Get a life.

No wonder the UK is in the state it is.:*

[atyourcervix73]

Anotherthing..

I actually agree with you here.....the trouble is, depending on your point of view, a statement like
Therefore - pound for pound (because you said I can) BA CC are overpaid in comparison to other airlines. Either that or all other airlines are underpaid.

can be taken 2 ways, BA cabincrew could argue RYR/EZY are underpaid.

In the final analysis remuneration is a function of many factors, legacy being one small part. I would argue that BA CC add more value than EZY or RYR staff....simply on the basis that they carry (attract/serve) premium passengers. You would perhaps argue to the contrary, as it stands BA CC are paid more...so the current position by default rests with me.

If we were to apply your argument to the economy at large, we would all be paid the same amount for the same task, a concept I'm sure would go down like a lead balloon elsewhere.

[anotherthing]

seat1Aplease

......dafter and dafter. It's only a matter of time before someone suggests that crew of the same rank working in club should be paid more than those working in economy because the food is better....

it is a strange and silly concept, isn't it? I agree wholeheartedly... as I am sure your colleague WeLieInTheShadows does. Here is a copy of his/her two posts. I think they are fairly relevant after your post.


post 692

What abou the LGW main crew who work with less crew and less rest than LHR crew, doing the same service on the same config aircraft?

Their pay caps out below 15K. No proposed increase for them?

Same applies to PSR's and CM's.

If this post 97 pay increase BASSA proposes is passed than would mean that a post 97 main crewmember (I joined post Jan 97 but have opted to stay at LGW), would be on the same basic as me as a cabin manager.

Fair? No.

At LGW we have a mainline contract (since 2002) and are part of the NSP (Dated back to OCT 2006).


However still no increase in OUR basic pay or increments mentioned anywhere.

So much for brothers in arms as BASSA likes to preach.



Post 696

My basic as a CM is 19K. 14,500 is pensionable.

I've been for promotion twice, and got it.

My pay will be not much better than yours.

I now have no where else up the tree to go at LGW. So my pay will go up in £500 increments for the next 6 - 7 years and then it stops.

So as someone who works as part of the service and in-charge/supervises 9/10/11 crew over 4 cabins, should my pay not be discussed or improved also?

It's double standards. And LGW crew are sick of it.


Compare like for like now, anyone??

[atyourcervix73]

Atyourcervix

If you are a humble FO, I hope that you are far up the seniority list not to be let go when the airline has to restructure as a result of a downturn in business following this action.

I'm very near the bottom...I'm sure I'll be the first one taken out and shot!:ooh: :}

[Gonzo]

In the past, if two flight prices were roughly the same, and one of them was BA, I'd choose BA. Firstly because I have confidence in the flight crew, and secondly also because of some often unquantifiable thought they BA were 'better' than other airlines.

Over the past two years my thoughts on this have changed. I still have great regard for the aircrew with whom I deal with daily. However, in my mind BA are no longer 'better' than other airlines. In fact, with the almost annual disruption to the LHR operation I make a point now of not flying on BA.

I cannot understand some posts here which claim that BA CC should be paid more because they work for the 'flag carrier' (surely an outdated concept in the 21st century anyway) - that prestige and image one has if one works for such a company might in a way argue that pay should be less.....

At the end of the day, market forces determine salary level. I know it's wrong to generalise, but in my experience BA CC are paid well (and before anyone has a go, I am close friends with a handful of BA LHR-based long and short haul CC - and through them several more as acquaintances, experience ranging from one to nine years, and also a few LHR Virgin CC for comparison). Especially considering the qualifications required and the duration of the training.

I don't think I'll be flying BA for a very long time, if at all.

[anotherthing]

Atyourcervix

Believe it or not, I belive BA CC should be paid more than RYR/EZY because they do have to do more (meals as standard etc etc). I do not think that they should be paid more than comparable or better airlines and therein lies the crux of the argument - they are well renumerated compared to other high class outfits.... so Joe Public does not understand why they are after even more (though I know I would like more money too, it's human nature).

A lot of this is about Ts and Cs - but why are BA CC ill, on average, 4 times more than normal? I understand about flying with colds etc but where do CC get these colds - if it's from pax, why don't pax heads explode when flying with a cold? (again rhetorical tongue in cheek question - I understand fully the implications of barotrauma on the sinuses and ears).

Flying whilst you have a cold is not impossible and is no great problem... with the 'flu is different, but if you get the 'flu, you really know about it!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Not so sure about BA being a flag carrier any more either. BOAC was a flag carrier but methinks that BA lost the plot when Big Ears had a go at painting Noddy's tailplanes. They've never really recovered from that ailment.:suspect:

[atyourcervix73]

Anotherthing..
A lot of this is about Ts and Cs - but why are BA CC ill, on average, 4 times more than normal? I understand about flying with colds etc but where do CC get these colds - if it's from pax, why don't pax heads explode when flying with a cold? (again rhetorical tongue in cheek question - I understand fully the implications of barotrauma on the sinuses and ears).

I can't answer why, although its easy to speculate that before EG300, a culture of take a day here and there existed...but I honestly don't know, others on here will be able to answer that better than I.
With regards to working when I'll, I will go to work (F/O 757/767) more often than my wife, purely because I don't have to handle food, I can dose up on non-dozy drugs, and hide behind the cockpit door. A sneeze or cough now and then is no big problem, if however I was CC, I don't think it is hygenic to be serving food or drink in this condition, and as you say there is the barotrauma aspect to consider as well.

[Litebulbs]

Have you ever witnessed a PAX with a bad head cold? Sitting for hours, in tears, head shoved in a cup full of carvol. It hurts. So now, you are CC, sitting at home, with a cold, do I or don't I go in? Oh, and you have got to work too!

[roll_over]

Will there be any punishment for the people who strike?

I sincerely hope they get their staff travel suspended or something along those lines, I'm sure that would stop the other strikes pretty sharpish!

[Rollingthunder]

Well having read 37 pages of this thread and other sources it seems this strike is over rather trivial matters compared to other strikes in history. End result, full load factors for competitive carriers and pain for BA CC and BA.

[anotherthing]

Rollover

Although I do not agree with the strike per se, I think your attitude is wrong.

The workforce have the right to strike, whether we think it is correct or not is our opinion.


Whether BASSA have advised their membership badly is another issue.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Has not some doubt been expressed in these pages as to whether or not BA cabin crew are, in fact, a work force?:confused:

[Skipness One Echo]

The sickness rate at BA is comedically high. It is at dishonestly silly levels. It needs to be brought under control. If you guys strike, you will have next to no public support, and next to no passenegers.
Well done!

[Rollingthunder]

One other thing. Are you folks working under an expired contract? If not what you are planning to do is considered an illegal walkout over here and subject to sanctions from the Labour Relations Board with severe financial penalties for individual employees and the union itself. But I guess that's only over here.

[Lookatthesky]

The sickness rate at BA is comedically high. It is at dishonestly silly levels. It needs to be brought under control. If you guys strike, you will have next to no public support, and next to no passenegers.
Well done!
It's worse than that, quite frankly it's a piss take :mad: 12 days average sick per person per year. There will be many who have an unblemished attendance record, it figures therefore, that there will be many who are pushing 30-40 days off sick per year (3 or 4 days a month on average), why?

a) Got in late from pub/nightclub?
b) Can't be arsed to go in today?
c) Fancy a day off?

If you want the professional job, you have to act like a professional, taking 'sickies' is hardly that is it?? :mad: :ugh:

[Island Jockey]

As BA have just put an embargo on all staff travel due to the strike, many of their colleagues hoping to enjoy this 'perk' including cabin staff going on holiday will be a little upset to say the leastas this will knock on for weeks.:{

[anotherthing]

litebulbs

I fully understand the implications of pressure differentials/barotrauma/colds/flu etc.

My question stands - why has BA CC got such a high incidence of days off work due illness?

Fine, if you have a cold, do not fly - (another question arises - see down); but why do BA CC have so many colds?

I also fully understand that if flying long haul etc, the body gets tired, despite layovers; due to time zone differences etc. I fully understand that a tired body can become run down and more susceptible to ailments.

I work shifts, as do all my colleagues. Shift patterns that are inherently bad for us and will probably lead us to an earlier than average grave (taken against an average 9 to 5 mon to friday workforce). We also get run down, but our incidences of sickness are nowhere near BA CC. Why?? It's an honest question, no malice or scepticsm implied.

What is the sick rate like for other airlines? I am sure if it was as high as BA CC, we would have been told by now.

As for when you do have a cold and do not want to fly; can you not work in an office for a day? Again, a genuine question. There must be something you can do that would help the company and would cut down the number of days sick leave people take.

[the heavy heavy]

Bluejay, Mouse

The underlying tone to Phils original post (now removed I think) was that he would rather fly with x.y,z airlines rather than with BA as his last experience consisted of a crew with ' 85% gay stewards......mincers ' which was affecting the airline.

phils opinion is spot on. on some services the number of gay men on the crews is staggering. surely a crew should reflect the diversity of the uk as whole and not that of brighton!

the vast majority of pax just want service with a smile and some respect. gay men, lesbians, married couples are all equally capable of delivering it.

however, should it be a suprise that our predominately straight customers can find it a little daunting to be served by a bunch of queens heading home from syd mardi gras or 'clubbing with the boys' in gru?

[Litebulbs]

Anotherthing

Your points are completely valid. Why is the level of sicknes higher? What has actually been done to understand why sickness is higher? You could bring the sickness rate down to almost zero, if you threatened to sack any employee who went sick, (possibly sacked unfairly), but surely this is not the way forward. It is the strong arm tactics that are being used that people are fighting against.

BA have reduced the sick level by 10 occurences per employee per year, but this is still high. This shows that threatening people with disiplinary action and or dismissal has not worked. Look at why people are supposidly throwing sickies.

If you can solve the reasons why crew need to go sick, you will obviously see a huge reduction in sick levels.

This will be the difficult part, as BA and BASSA clearly do not trust each other.

[DaveO'Leary]

I'm surprised it has taken so long for WW to incorporate the 'macho' management techniques as used by Brian Souter Stagecoach.

Be scared, it worked for Souter, It'll work for BA. But it failed in the 'long run' power to all you guys and gals. Don't let the bas:mad: grind you down.

Dave

[M.Mouse]

I sincerely hope they get their staff travel suspended or something......

The 1997 strikers lost their staff travel for 12 months.

[Re-entry]

Throughout the 90's the airline mis-managers loved the words 'market forces'. Oh how it is coming home to roost. But they don't care cos they've secured their stupid immoral bonuses. Leave it for the new guys. Bit like politicians.

[ZeBedie]

This is what the CC are taking on.....http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4297404.stm

I know who my money is on.

I believe the Aer Lingus pilots got everything they were asking for, when they went on strike. He can't run an airline without cabin crew and he knows it.

[TopBunk]

It's easy in the here and now to get caught up in the details, and I could be accused of that, although I've tried to keep my posts factual.

However, if we try to look forward ... there will be a NEGOTIATED end to this dispute. The result has to be that both sides have some positives to put forward as a victory. BA has to be able to say abc and BASSA has to be able to put a position to its membership 'without your support xyz would have happened'. That is a fact of Industrial Relations. Both sides need each other at the end of the day. I know that some will argue that Ryanair think not, but I think that their modus operandi will unravel eventually.

Whether it works out 70:30, 50:50 or 30:70 is what we are looking at here.

So where are we? I think it comes down to individuals egos, both within the company and within the union. Who will win? Well the company has more financial resources behind it (so long as the institutions and he board sanction WW's actions), while the T&G/BASSA has limited financial support and its members resolution (post Xmas credit bills included) on its side. It is a big gamble by both sides, on balance, the company has the bigger up-side the union the bigger downside. The only losers can be the employees, and specifically the cabin crew who go out on strike. The reps get paid part of their wage by the T&G, BASSA members strike and lose their salary and variable pay. The company accounts absorb the action and long term the reduced employee costs win the equation. So you tell me who wins and who loses.

[Fly380]

atyourcervix73 are you hen pecked? :}

[overstress]

If you can solve the reasons why crew need to go sick, you will obviously see a huge reduction in sick levelss.
This will be the difficult part, as BA and BASSA clearly do not trust each other

Litebulbs - exactly, crew can't get the days off they want, so many of them just don't turn up, costing BA the wages of the 1000 extra crew they have to employ to cover this practise.

Generations of CEOs have ignored this problem, now BASSA appear to be handing WW the solution on a plate, sooner than he expected, probably.

[atyourcervix73]

Fly380...:} who moi? (probably:ooh: )

Just posting to say I agree 100% with topbunks' last post, a very fair assessment me thinks:ok:

[Litebulbs]

Overstress

Crew not getting the days off they want is too simplistic. Everyone who works, needs days off. Is it harder for crews to get specfic days off, than it is for anyone else? I don't know and I bet a fair few people who are negotiating this problem, don't know either.

[overstress]

Litebulbs, if you don't know, then why post? It is a fact that cabin crew are rostered, ie they have no control over their days off. Their management is inflexible, therefore individuals 'pull a sickie' to get some control over their lives. There are, on average, 700 crew a day off sick, some genuine, of course, but plenty who are not. Even now there are crew 'going sick' to avoid the strike. If crew and employer trusted each other, they could devise a bidline system and eliminate this nonsense.

Instead, BASSA, led by a few cushioned militants, have led their members up a hill - there may not be an easy way down, sadly.

[tiggerific_69]

wonder what thanks BA Connect & Franchise staff (who are on worse T&C's than mainline and dont strike!!!) will get when they have to pick up passengers across Europe who have been affected by the strikes :ugh: :ugh:

[Litebulbs]

Overstress

Well, if I knew the answer of why BA's CC have a higher sick rate than the rest of industry, then I would drop WW a line and prob get 1st tickets anywhere for the rest of my life. But the reason for this, is what I would be looking into. Rosters are rosters across the whole of industry, but industry does not seem to have the same problem. It would seem to be unlucky for BA, that it has employed 10000+ bad staff. How long does it take to institutionalise someone?

[Captain Airclues]

It will be interesting to see how many of the crew who are due to operate on Tuesday phone in sick on Monday evening.