Exodus from Skippers (Merged)

[Equatorial]

News on the vine is that as many as 13 pilots have left Skippers in just the beginning of this year!!!!

Many have gone to National Jet but a few others going back east.

What is going on at Skippers? Pay and conditions are they playing a part? Linking in with Erin's post re: pilot shortage - you get the feeling that there will be some aircraft parked on the fence or at the very least cancellations with what I am told about a quarter of the pilots on their way to bigger and better....

:ok:

[Icarus2001]

There must be some sort of resignation bonus happening.

[illusion]

Yes, the bonus is they won't have to work for D**KH??DS anymore- Unless of course they join Nationaljet..........:ugh:

[Green gorilla]

I have never worker for skippers how bad is it.

[Hawk777]

Green Gorilla,

Your obviously trying to stir up some @#$%.

What's it like at network?

How many drivers have Network lost this year or in the last 2 months?

On another note. If Skippers can't crew flights are there any clients threatening to go elsewhere?

[Icarus2001]

How would "the clients" know?

Sorry the aircraft broke...sorry the CA called in sick and we could not find a replacement...

[Green gorilla]

Hawk 777 iam sure people from skippers can say somthing about the company maybe one of the guys that have left its the only way things change. Better to know a little information before you get a job with them then to find out the pitfalls six months after endorsment.

[neville_nobody]

Reality is from Skippers perspective is that people are going to leave no matter how well or poorly they are paid. Jets will always offer more money than a 30 seat turbo prop so if even skippers were paying huge money they will still have the same problem. Anyone here willing to say that they would rather fly a Braz than a 717 for the same money given the choice?? I know I wouldn't.

Turboprop charter is ALWAYS going to be a cavalcade to bigger operaters, the only way this will stop is if they start offering jet jobs on decent salaries.

The other alternative for skippers and other regionals is to link in with a major carrier and provide career paths. SO if you did 3 years at skippers then you'd get a favourable interview with Virgin for example. Similar to what Cathay and SIngapore do with their flying college instructors.

Suprised that QF haven't done this as Eastern is bleeding pilots to operaters all over the world. That would stop tomorrow if you had guarenteed gig in QF one day!!

So as much as most people hate skippers nothing much will change in terms of pay and conditions that's for sure......

[bushy]

Australia has had a surplus of pilots for decades. A "correction" is occurring. But some may have to go overseas to complete the shakeout. It is happening. But people are finding it is possible, but not easy.

[Green gorilla]

Its a pilots life to always fly faster and higher so the skippers of the world will always have problems until they go to jets.

[Dawn Raid]

Cont 520 - how did the interview go?

Battler - if you read this, hows it going? Saw you in the Bunbury ute a couple of weeks ago.

Steve

[Hawk777]

The clients would know when their flights start to get cancelled on a regular basis due to the fact that there are no crews available. Has this started happening yet?

Paying extra would in my mind slow the loss of pilots. Take a Bras Capt. for example who ultimately wants to end up flying jets for Cathay, Emirates, Qantas, VB or Jetstar. At the moment, they are paid around $55000. A job over at Skywest as an FO pays about the same but the prsopects at Skywest are better and the conditions are certainly better so they would definateley take a job there until a jet job came up. BUT, if that Capt was getting paid $70000 at Skippers then they may reconsider the offer from Skywest and instead choose to stay at Skippers until the jet job comes up.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Don't know how they are going to solve a pilot exodus but they have stopped their ginger beers leaving. Word on the street is that they have applicants for engineering slots these days. It was money and conditions that fixed that little problem so maybe a bit of that would help.

Who would want to work next door on a B scale with an uncertain future anyway?

[Brasilian Bird]

Sorry the aircraft broke...sorry the CA called in sick and we could not find a replacement...

Business as usual then!!! :E

Seriously though, money (P&C) is a part of the solution. Sure, the guys and girls there are always going to want to move on somewhere better... BUT.... not everyone there is looking to progress their career.

E.g. guys with families, who like not flying weekends or too late nights (home by 9pm usually, the odd weekend charter and so on)

If they could afford to stay they would, purely for the lifestyle of being able to have a relatively 'normal' home life (great if one has kiddies)

I believe there was one guy there who until a few years ago had been there from the start... so no, not everyone leaves for 'something better'... and if it worked for engineers, it'll work for pilots.

I'm just interested to know what the mines will think of the lowering experience pool... am sure at least a few require 2 crew ops with minimums on the hours of the guys doing the flying... so, yes, I believe it's a definite possiblity that contracts will go elsewhere... it has happened before... it will happen again...! Only time will tell how many!!!

[VH-UFO]

Brasilian Bird;

I myself am one of those miners that does the FIFO on a 2/1 roster, to a minesite in the Conquest.

Have a PPL and did a little time in an ATC unit whilst with the RAAF a few years ago, and still keep have some interest in what goes on in birdy world, especially when topics like this come up of which i have an interest in.

From a miners perspective, most are pretty naive when it comes to things aviation. All they think about is getting home, and getting home on time after a couple of weeks away from the family. Its guys like myself that have some idea about the aviation world who's eyebrows lift when i hear the guys flying us into these remote strips have just 200 hrs multi, although i suppose you have to start somewhere.

And thats what i mean about naive, if you said 'just 200hrs multi' to a miner, they would shrug their shoulders and say, "oh".

What is more of concern to the mines, or should i say the companies themselves, is the lack of flexibility, not sure if thats the right word, in the scheduling of flights.

For example, only the other week we were sitting in the office looking at other charter companies trying to get an earlier flight out of Perth because our flight doesnt arrive at the minesite until 10am. So by the time we get back to camp, get ready and head out to the minesite (30km away), we dont get started until after lunch. A half a day's production can add up to a fair amount of money lost.

But we couldnt find anyone who could go out any earlier. Suppose its a sign of the times in this resources boom.

Anyway the missus is nagging me to get some spaghetti from the shops, so best i go before captain kitchen relegates me to the couch.

[gas-chamber]

Considering that the F/O is the apprentice Captain, it is only right that a fully-qualified LAME be paid more. He is worth more to management for the simple reason he is much harder to replace than the F/O.

If QF LAME's are paid only half the rate going elsewhere, why don't they piss off elsewhere? Because they crave job security or the staff travel or stable rosters or the particular QF main bases perhaps? There is usually an underlying reason why people put up with seemingly lesser conditions than what are seemingly available elsewhere. And does that quoted rate of $52 K include overtime and shift allowances? Maybe the other mobs are on a flat rate and have to work every weekend and back of the clock. I dunno, I am not a LAME, but find it hard to believe the small players actually pay MORE than QF for essentially the same skill.

[captwawa]

To say that current pilots at Skippers are of lower experience levels than say three or four years ago is an understatement.

This in no way undermines the work that these people do in the cockpit nor how they handle themselves wherever they are with the uniform on, it is more a reflection of the changing times in the industry - as it was previously mentioned a 'correction' is taking place.

VH-UFO mostly the conquest guys are quite experienced (with the exception of a few new ones) mainly on the two crew aircraft - Metro, Brasilia and Dash's you will find very low time people in the right seat. Issues arise when these people shift to the left seat as is happening, that command decisions utilising previous experience knowledge (or lack thereof) are the real concern - not only in WA but countrywide.

[Cruze Power]

and i'm not in agreeance that f/o

I was just looking for that word in my trusty Oxford Pocket Version. I can't seem to locate it anywhere in the book.

I would love find it so I can be in agreement with "agreeance"

Sorry, back to the cricket:cool:

[Brasilian Bird]

I wasn't meaning the miners themselves so much as the mines... (I'm sure if all of them were a bit aircraft savvy the least of their worries would be how tiny they think a Conquest/Metro/Kingair etc is :})

I'm sure there's more than a few mining companies who have insurance policies which state minimums on the hours/experience/ratings on the guys flying into these strips... if Skippers (or any other charter co) are having to lower their minimums to employ enough pilots, then surely the mines will either have to change their minimums (which I can't see the insurance cos doing) or the mines will have to take their contracts elsewhere. Problem is, if all companies are having the same problem, the mines will have no choice but go to bigger operators/jets (which for many is not possible due to strip length/strength etc) or figure out alternatives to fly in/fly out....

I don't think it will get this bad, but it's quite possible mines will buy their own aircraft as some have done, or perhaps make up the 'shortfall' in salary required to attract more 'experienced' pilots to the operation to meet the insurer requirements? Just theorising!!! :E

[A1BUGSMASHER]

An interesting point was made nevill_nobody about aligning with a major carrier..... May be that the local turbo-prop operators (Skippers, Network and Maroomba) consider an alliance with the two new West Coast jet operators OzJet and Alliance. Both these companies have East and West coast operations, low cost base and have already proven an ability to dislodge NJS and XR from mining contracts.:ouch:

In fact I believe a high ranking offical at Skippers has touted a move to 100 seat jet operations..... Sadly I doubt this will be the case:{ , clearly this would not be a wise move given the current climate, maybe a call to OzJet and Alliance about a relationsip is needed to stem the flow of pilots moving on is needed......

[randa]

In reply to the original post, I think after some time at Skippers in the turbo props and some multi-crew experience, the cv starts to look interesting to those operating bigger equipment.

Personally, I enjoyed my time at Skippers - good crews, nice aeroplanes, home every night, most weekends off. Sure the money sucked, but it was still more than I was getting flying pistons, and the job satisfaction was high. I would have happily stayed longer if a jet job had not presented itself. If you're only after the money, go do something else!

[Icarus2001]

if Skippers (or any other charter co) are having to lower their minimums to employ enough pilots, then surely the mines will either have to change their minimums (which I can't see the insurance cos doing) or the mines will have to take their contracts elsewhere. Problem is, if all companies are having the same problem, the mines will have no choice..there is the rub brasilian bird, they are not ALL having that problem.
Look at the other operators at PH. NJS put pilots in the RHS as FO with thousands of hours, previous Metro/Bras Captains, some were C&T crew. Skywest do the same, Alliance have only taken high time (4000+) turbine Captains as FOs for the F100. Ozjet took the cream as well. Network does take lower time pilots but not as low as I hear Skippers will take. Pilots with less than 400 hours total time and cadet pilots without a rigorous supervision and training system.
So only Skippers take VERY LOW TIME pilots for the RHS who may or may not be upgradeable. A certain C441 pilot comes to mind. Why can other operators be more choosy? The answer is very simple T & C. What they are prepared to PAY for experienced drivers so that they avoid the six o'clock news and can keep the contracts and the way they TREAT their staff. Loyalty works both ways.

[Hawk777]

**NEWS**

Skippers have just anounced a new RPT route.

PH-PH via the circuit area.

Departs daily at 1130

[captwawa]

Apparently some people that are leaving may have stayed IF money and rostering were improved. Sounds like the same old argument.

Interesting times ahead - especially if more pilots keep leaving...

Does anyone know how the mining companies / clients know how pilot hours are verified (or if they are)?????

[Brasilian Bird]

Icarus, that was the point I was trying to make (not very well I might add!!! :})

They would not have such a hassle keeping pilots if they paid them what they deserve for their experience. From what's been coming down the grapevine lately, there's not many REALLY experienced guys left in their fleet... e.g. they had Metro guys who had years on type who left for greener pastures because the deal was better elsewhere... had Skippers offered better I'm positive at least a couple would have stayed (family life, all that)

But really with what they were getting, they had no choice. Like was said above, if another operator dangled a bigger/better aircraft in your face and offered better pay, would you stay?

I sure as hell wouldn't!! :E

As for management, and how they treat them, I've seen it myself. They are not nice. Reasonable people give you reasonable rosters/hours/rest, and take into account personal circumstances. I've heard of guys needing time off for personal stuff (not because of a big night out) and it wasn't given. Then it's made to seem like the pilots fault. Well who schedules their aircraft to maximum available with not a lot of leeway for breakdowns etc?? Dunno if it's improved lately but the same apparently went for the cabin chicks as well. Off sick for a week, so lets hammer them for the next fortnight. Nice way to burn them out!!!

Wonder if it is the same at Network, Maroomba et al...? Don't think so, they look a lot happier! :E

[Green gorilla]

Maybe in 10 years time it may be different more advanced aircraft required by mining companies requiring more training and more respect from these folks.

[Brasilian Bird]

GG, you may be right. I can see a lot of the mines going to jets if runway improvements allow it. That just leaves the really remote/smaller strips for the likes of Skippers, Network etc (if they keep the smaller aircraft, that is)

[No worries mate]

I see Skippers are looking for DE Capts (already endorsed) for the Bras and Metro. They are having trouble finding non-endorsed guys to fill the seats, what chance will they have of finding endorsed pilots?

[Wombat]

Yes, they certainly are going to have a hard time attracting experienced drivers on T&Cs that they offer.

The management over the last few years have always hinted, "If you don't like the T&Cs, then leave".

Well, guess whats happening!!!!:D
And this lot of Pilot's, F/As & Grd staff are not the last to leave in the near future.

Wombat

[Brasilian Bird]

DE Capts (already endorsed) for the Bras and Metro.

Fat chance!!! They've all buggered off to greener pastures!!! RS and all his mates in management must be doing a merry dance right about now...! :E :}

[Icarus2001]

I checked with a mate the other day...Dash 8 - 300 Captain gets $68K and apparently any DE crew will still be bonded for two years, even if they have the endo???????!

[Brasilian Bird]

Sounds like the usual modus operandi over there... wonder how many takers they will get..? :}

I have no pity for them any more, they had some great guys who they royally shafted. Whats that saying, "What goes around comes around"? Watch it in action! :E

[Led Zep]

Check the Jobs page of the AFAP website. Looks like there is something "fishy" going on at Skippers! Maybe the whole "endorsed applicants only" is a red herring. :p Ahhhhhrrrrrrrrr Matey!

I'll show myself out. :}

[Equatorial]

Have heard that the senior check and trainer on the Brasilia fleet is going as well as the senior F/O both to National Jet.

With that F/O going that makes the next senior F/O's Qantas cadets!

Is this true? How does that effect seniority?

anyone, anyone?

[Icarus2001]

I don't think they use the S word over there equatorial.

Latest I heard is two new dash crew are heading back to fly the brasilia to keep them in the air. The friendly neighbourhood regulator is not happy.

[flightfocus]

**NEWS**

Skippers have just anounced a new RPT route.

PH-PH via the circuit area.

Departs daily at 1130

Ha ha - I hope that I can get a window seat on the scenic flight. "Continue left orbits till advised" sounds so interesting. Can't be a lot of training benefit in that.

Would have thought bump & grinds would have been more effectively done out west (CUN?) or down south (BLN or BUN?) than getting shafted in the PH CCT area.

[Icarus2001]

Would have thought bump & grinds would have been more effectively done out west (CUN?) You have your WAC upside down again.:ugh:

[flightfocus]

You have your WAC upside down again.

Bugger! Hope that doesn't give away where I might be from....:sad:

Ahhh... the big blue thing is on the left now. Gotcha :8

My bad. :bored:

[Zhaadum]

Not Perth I guess! The ocean is on the wrong side, it can get confusing. Lots of strange goings on over here. "W.A.it a while, 3 hrs (2 now:)) and 20 years behind the rest of OZ".

Z.:ok:

[skytops]

Anyone here get in, or know anyone who got in, following the recent Skipper's interviews?
Just curious what are the hours of boys and girls getting in.

[Brasilian Bird]

Just curious what are the hours of boys and girls getting in.

Not many, if the goss I've heard is true!!! :}

[Jedi]

The last two guys that I have heard had interviews have been fairly experienced. One took an F/O spot on the braz (He held multi check and training at last job), and the other is waiting to hear about a 441 spot (~4000hrs).
Although it would seem the experience pool is drying up, there are still guys out there with alot of experince beatin it out in the bush. Have also heard that the companies that these guys are leaving are having a hard time replacng them!!:cool:

[Towering Q]

and the other is waiting to hear about a 441 spot (~4000hrs).

Something tells me he won't be waiting very long.:}

[Icarus2001]

Ahhhh but isn't there now one less C441 requiring a pilot?

[G.A. Boy]

No ATPLS, so I guess he will be there for a while until he gets em.

[Delta_7]

StaffCV for Skippers says:

LICENCES REQUIRED
Australian CPL and ATPL subjects or
Australian ATPL

but then, further down, it says:

DESIRABLE
ATPLs (Highly desirable)

A little contradictory, but I'd read that as ATPLs are not a concrete requirement.

[Icarus2001]

Was that a Skywest F50 I saw over at Skippers yesterday? Couldn't have been surely? Probably crewed by Skippers escapees...:\

[Icarus2001]

It would be nice to have a million pilots on the rosters, however it does not make good business sense....and crosshiring an F50 or Dash from another company is a better business decision?

[Icarus2001]

...but not better than recruiting and retaining adequate numbers of crew to operate the contracted flights.

[Icarus2001]

Glad to hear that crew numbers are healthy and that it is the engineers letting the side down.:ok:

[Brasilian Bird]

Was not for maintenaince.... word round the traps is that XR have picked up one of the charters that Skippers were doing... not sure if it's to do with acft numbers or crew availability though... seems like a temporary thing but who knows

[Wombat]

Richard Bachman,

Sorry to pick on you, but I'm sure that all of Skipper's clients would not like to hear that it is regarded as a training airline:= .

Secondly, when you say that current Pilot's rise up to the challenge of low numbers. I think you mean that their rosters are constantly changed, numerous times at the last minute, hence they have no private life, get frustrated and burnt out, then they leave to the likes of Maroomba and Network which are just sideward steps.

You are right to say that some Pilot's will move onto bigger companies to progress their careers but I believe Skippers could hold onto more Pilot's if they just improved their T & C's.

Just my opinion.

Wombat

[sweetpollypurebred]

That might be a good job for Gnadenburg, he may learn how to fly without someone holding his hand:ok:

[Hawk777]

Wombat,

Might be a step side ways as far as aircraft type, but from what I hear it's quite a substantial pay rise flying the Dash at Maroomba.

Steve Young has always paid well and that is why these long serving Dash drivers at Skippers moved across.

Good on Steve for seeing the value in paying that bit extra to keep good guys. Maroomba will never have the crewing problems that Skippers are experiencing now.

[Wombat]

Hawk 777

Thats absolutely 100% correct. As I said before, if they (Skipper's) could increase their T & C's they may retain a few drivers. From what I hear, Maroomba has an excellent reputation for looking after Pilot's. My reference to sideways step was aircraft only.

Wombat

[Icarus2001]

It seems Maroomba pay their crews more to fly a Dash 100 than Skippers pays their crews to fly a Dash 300. I am sure it isn't all about money as you say roster stability etc must play a part? I hear three guys off to VB, well done.

[Ref + 10]

Maroomba apparently pay 441 drivers more than Skippers pay their Bras captains!!

It'd be funny if it wasn't true...

[Full Noise]

I hear that the roster is changing every 12 hrs, or once every 2 hrs at times. Everyone is notified of their roster the night before.

So doesn't that mean that everyone is on "Reserve" all the time???? Not sure, but doesn't seem real good to me.........

How is one too have a life with that sort of a roster?????????

I think Skippers bring it all upon them self. Pay better you get better, i.e people will stay.................:ugh:

[Bluebottle]

Forgive the off thread drift...but do skippers still own the 2 old clapped out ex- Flt West Dash 100's?

[Equatorial]

Noticed that all his posts have dissapeared after he threw his two cents in.

Why would this be done - maybe Richard sang his 'swan' song and like his Stephen King referenced nickname decided the heat was too hot in the kitchen and vanished....

Have heard some crew have had to go back to other aircraft due to pilot shortages - I am sure they are happy about this

Like Icarus I can't see how Richard can blame maintenance issues solely for the need to bring F50's over to Skippers - chances are the F50's are probably crewed by ex Skippers people anyway! :eek:

Bluebottle - yes they are

[aviationmug]

I applied to this mob about six months ago.
They said I had to go casual to start, and fly copilot on the metro.
I have considerable time command on turbine, and have since got a Capt job with a regional.
If they are going to give me the run around, then F@#k em!

[Icarus2001]

Interesting indeed. Why swan in and post a few replies only to remove them a week later?

Looks like more pain on the way for them this week. Pilots leaving just after being checked to line is not a good look.:\

[Icarus2001]

Any truth to the rumour that four more pilots have resigned this week and a contract or two has been lost to (shock) Skywest?

[Brasilian Bird]

Icarus, it ain't just a rumour... 'darling'! :} :E

[KRUSTY 34]

aviationmug,

What Regional are taking direct entry Captains?

[Swanie]

i know a couple of ppl that just got accepted to head to melbourne for their metro TR, sounds like its quite easy to get into at the moment, now i know why ;)

Whats so bad about skip's

[VH-UFO]

Friend of mine who works at the Kooly minesite emailed me the other day and said they turfed skippers for Skywest after their prang at Kooly a few weeks ago.

Flying into Windarling then bus back to Kooly (100km).

Boys/Girls at our minesite starting to grumble as well, in particular about the availability of aircraft, and the state of them.

When i tell them these aircraft (conquest) are approaching 30 years old, they shiiiivvveerrrrr, which almost turns to frosbite when they hear about incidents like Kooly.

And the availability, anybody at Skippers enlighten me as to what the deal is?

You see, we finish Thursday afternoon but dont fly out until well into the next morning.

I didnt think Skippers were that busy, as we were told there were absolutely no other slots available. Even rang after we found out about Kooly, nope, nada, no other slots.

[Towering Q]

Flying into Windarling then bus back to Kooly (100km)

They might as well just drive to Perth.

[Led Zep]

Skippers were going to pull out of Kooly before the conquest incident as they lost the contract to XR (what Icarus alluded to) who could provide bigger aeroplanes than what could Skippers.

Skipper's problem seems to be lack of aeroplanes and more so the pilots to fly them. I've been told from someone who knows, skippers have no problems with keeping their engineering department staffed. Getting around 3x more than the average pilot there +overtime/etc is probably why. :D :ugh:

That's what I've heard anyway. :} :ok:

[Richo]

Heard today from,........ well maybe I wont say, but anway back to the topic.

A US company is preparing to fly a A319 to Perth for mining contract work. The aircraft was painted white with a Blue tail and yellow feathery looking things.

So let the guessing begin?

richo

[Skystar320]

LOL richo nice info :ok: pity its all wrong!!!!!!!!!!

[Monopole]

Richo

Is that the one thats parked up next to the polished silver B737 with a green tail and a purple 'N' on the tail :} :} :}

[Icarus2001]

Hey Richo, has anyone over there got any jet time to drive this mystery jet?:cool:

[Defenestrator]

Hey Richo, has anyone over there got any jet time to drive this mystery jet?

Are you serious? You don't need jet time to be a jet driver. But I'm sure insurance will denote otherwise.

D

[Brasilian Bird]

Could it possibly be the A319 that's turned up in Hobart as part of the Antarctic expedition fleet?

[Icarus2001]

I like the way you think.:ok:
Possibly this one http://www.aad.gov.au/default.asp?casid=29219

Come on Richo, you can do much better than that.:)

[Icarus2001]

Richo come on....;)

Looks like it isn't just the pilots heading out the door in large numbers. Heard that various admin staff and engineers are moving on.

Supply and demand indeed.

[Richo]

Hi Ic'ie

Desired effect, - achived

No further need to carry it on.

Speeds Hi

richo

[Icarus2001]

I have seen quite a few other operators with aircraft parked on their apron in the last two weeks. Maintenance issues again or lack of crew?

Their maintenance manager is off to Skywest I hear.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Its interesting watching many low capacity RPT/Charter operator rapidly dropping their minimums.

For example, Bras/Metro23 and Dash 8 Captains on the East Coast being advertised with mins of 2-2500 and 500 multi, 100 night, ATPL.

Where are the mins on the West Coast for similar jobs ?.

[captwawa]

At the latest sundowner all the talk was about more metro guys going to Skywest....

With the introduction of the extremely overpriced 'c***t' scheme it may be a stopgap measure but surely when the time comes and these people do not have the experience necessary - what will happen???

Only 8 or so Braz captains for 6 aircraft - o dear

I wonder if monkeys are being trained to fly the aircraft?

'gday folks today you're aircraft is under the command of johnny the monkey'

tops :ok:

[Icarus2001]

Pilots with very very minimal experience becoming fleet managers, Whilst noting that fleet manager is an admin role it is surely unprecedented to have a fleet manger who is not even checked to line as a Captain (or F/O) on the fleet he or she is managing?

Ultra high turn over of crews, trying to fix it with cadets will not help if you do not have any training staff left and those cadets cannot be dragged up with ICUS to command potential, no training staff to run the ICUS.

Now we get to see what mangement is really made off. Pretty easy to expand when the mining industry is booming. Now what if your HR practises do not provide the required outcomes?

[piston broke again]

As far as I know, not too many pilots moving on or in the process of moving on in the coming weeks. Would make a change!

[Gooose]

Ultra high turn over of crews, trying to fix it with cadets will not help if you do not have any training staff left and those cadets cannot be dragged up with ICUS to command potential, no training staff to run the ICUS.



I thought ICUS could be logged so long as the F/Os have a command endorsement and they are the handling pilot for the sector being flown.....are C&T captains needed onboard as PIC to permit the F/O to log ICUS?

[Dog One]

Yes, either a training captain or check captain, depending on what is in their T & C manual.

[jarjar]

Goose,
This rumour has done the yards on pprune, no you cannot log ICUS just because you are the handling pilot, even if you have a command endorsement. Ill wait for the long list of quotes and misinterpreations of the CAR'S/O'S shortly. You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS.
If this is what is happening around the industry then there are a lot of resumes out there that would make for some great reading.

JarJar

[neville_nobody]

You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS. :=

Nope you only need to be nominated as ICUS for the flight and you can do it in the RHS if you want. No requirement to be in the LHS. I think if you went around Australia and asked every FOI what his thoughts are you'd probably get 1000 different answers. However for people like skippers et al it will be the ONLY way they will be getting people with the minimums in the future.

It's either going to be ICUS or a complete rewrite of the regs with minimums thrown out the window and the emphasis then on training. However for Skippers this would be not cost effective, as you'd pay the money for a extensive sim training program then only to be a Casual on a Metro.

Maybe it's time for people like skippers to realise that they have a business model that is flawed as it is assuming pilot pay and training will be alot lower that what they really should be. Regionals are probably in the same boat.

[Aquaplaner]

You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS.
That is not correct!
From the regs:
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision
only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial
pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly
the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew
rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot
acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the
operator of the aircraft.
So in order to log ICUS in a Metro for example, the pilot acting in command under supervision needs as a minimum:
1) A fresh CPL
2) A command endorsement
3) A MECIR
4) To be rostered to conduct the flight acting in command under supervision.

An operator may impose additional restrictions i.e. only training/ check captains allowed to supervise ICUS pilots etc. However, this is not required by the regs.

[Dog One]

"An operator may impose additional restrictions i.e. only training/ check captains allowed to supervise ICUS pilots etc. However, this is not required by the regs."

Wouldn't 5.40 (f) disagree with this statement? In my experience in 217 organisations 5.40 (f) has always been expanded to show a training requirement for "appointed pilots" if they do not hold any Training & Checking approvals.

Aquaplaner's statement indicates that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain, which is not strictly correct, as they must be appointed, and the appoint process is tied to the Training 7 Checking manual.

In most cases their must be a need for the person to undertake ICUS, ie command upgrade. Its not intended for FO's to claim all their flying as ICUS on the handling leg.

[jarjar]

yes dog one you are correct, its a case of people reading one regulation and not refering to the the other regulations which paint the "whole picture". For those of you who are logging Icus for the sake of it, good luck to you. If you believe what you are doing is correct, put your money where your mouth is, walk down to your local CASA office, hand over your logbook, explain to them what your doing, then let us all know, how it ends up, not just to say, "there you go JARJAR you were wrong", but for the benefit of everyone reading this forum.

JarJar

[Aquaplaner]

Wouldn't 5.40 (f) disagree with this statement? In my experience in 217 organisations 5.40 (f) has always been expanded to show a training requirement for "appointed pilots" if they do not hold any Training & Checking approvals.
Traditionally all ICUS conducted was line training for the purpose of a command upgrade or some other qualification and was therefore the domain of the CAR217 organisation. All pilots conducting this training were appointed for this purpose in accordance with the guidelines in their Check and Training Manual.
An FO, with a CPL, who is “cleared to line”, can log ICUS for the purpose of accruing the hours required for the issue of an ATPL outside of the CAR 217 organisation as he/she is not undergoing training.
Aquaplaner's statement indicates that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain, which is not strictly correct, as they must be appointed, and the appoint process is tied to the Training 7 Checking manual.
I did not say that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain. They do have to be appointed, but this appointment can take place outside of the CAR217 organisation.
Its not intended for FO's to claim all their flying as ICUS on the handling leg.
I am sure this was true when the documents were written. However, the effect of the wording is that they can.

[Aquaplaner]

its a case of people reading one regulation and not refering to the the other regulations which paint the "whole picture".
For the benefit of everyone reading this forum, especially those who may be considering handing over a large amount of money to become part of a cadet scheme. Maybe you can post your references to the other regulations which paint the "whole picture" for us all.

[Defenestrator]

Aquaplaner,
So which one is it going to be. A company either operates under the banner of a 217 training organisation or it does not. It cannnot for convenience turn it on and off. And to be honest I don't put a lot of faith in your argument. This business of "outside the CAR217 organisation" doesn't hold a lot of water for mine. Care to qualify that?

And this little pearl, An FO, with a CPL, who is “cleared to line”, can log ICUS for the purpose of accruing the hours required for the issue of an ATPL outside of the CAR 217 organisation as he/she is not undergoing training.


Sorry but thats just a false statement. I'm happy to eat my words. But mate you just can't go making statements like this without backing them up with reference to CAO/CAR. We don't do command practice in this country and ICUS is conducted from the left seat with a suitably qualified Training Captain in the right....PERIOD. With those parameters met then yes, log the flight in the ICUS column. But that is the only circumstance that will allow it.

D

[polyfly]

A little off the topic but was wondering if anybody could help me out? I am looking to move to Aussie and wanted to start reading up on rules etc. I however can't seem to find any on the CASA website (I'm a bit confused with CAR 1998 etc). I am after the equivalent of CAA NZ's PARTS 61 (Pilot licenses and ratings) , 91 (general operating and flight rules) , 121, 125 and 135 (Air operations, Large, medium and small aircraft). I am also looking for the equivalent of AC's (advisory circulars). Any help would be appreciated thanks.

[404 Titan]

Defenestrator, jarjar & Dog One,

Unfortunately you are incorrect with what you may think the regs are saying. CAR 5.40 is very clear and consistent with ICAO and international practices. ICUS can and is/has been extensively used for many years (mainly by the majors but is just as applicable to the regional’s) to allow low time pilots and cadets accumulate the hours necessary to acquire an ATPL and to eventually get a command. Points that must be emphasised are that these hours can be accumulated outside a training environment. You don’t have to have a training captain in the left seat and all it takes is a blanket statement in the company’s ops manual that allows ICUS to be logged by the FO when he is PF.

I think the reality of the situation is that you haven’t come across this before in your career and are questioning those that say it is legal. For someone that has worked with this reality for many years, it is legal and many operators i.e. (Qantas) use it to employ low time pilots/cadets into the right seat with an eventual goal of seeing them promoted into the left seat. And for the record QF don’t have a dispensation to allow Cadets to log ICUS. It is all done under CAR 5.40.

Having said all that if an operator has something in their ops manual that is more restrictive than the CAR’s and the CAO’s then the operator must comply with what is in their ops manual. If down the road the operator needs to remove this they can as long as it is accepted by CASA and isn’t less stringent than the regs.

[Defenestrator]

Titan,
Agreed and only on the grounds that it is covered by the operators GOM with provision for exactly how it is to be conducted in the FOM or like. Reference can always be made to the FAR Part 91 ops that provide for the FO to log P1 when flying pilot (in the right seat). However to my knowledge the regs as I read them now don't provide for every Tom, Dick and Harry to log icus on every flight that he is a crew member. And I'd have a few dollars on it that most FOI's would agree. Reckon it won't be long though before the 'command practice' procedure becomes a lot more common place once we see some guidelines introduced into the CASA documents.

Regards

D

[404 Titan]

Defenestrator

No the regs don’t allow anyone to log ICUS. I have highlighted the relevant section that says just that. That being said I would be very surprised to see any operator that employs low time pilots not allow it as the regs provide. I would also be very surprised of any FOI who oversees a low/high capacity RPT operator that doesn’t know what is in their ops manual and therefore what can and can’t be logged by its pilots. In this regard I think that the regs are very clear and no further clarification is needed/required by the regulator.
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:

(a) the person holds:

(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

or

(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

and

(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command;

and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned;

and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;

and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;

and

(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

[Aquaplaner]

I am not suggesting that the Check and Training system can be switched on and off, rather that a qualified FO can log ICUS in accordance with CAR 5.40 (quoted above) on a regular line flight without any check and training personnel in the aircraft.

Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can log ICUS, only those the operator of the aircraft permits to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision (CAR 5.40) and as 404 Titan has correctly stated all it takes is a blanket statement in the company’s ops manual that allows ICUS to be logged by the FO when he is PF.
Reckon it won't be long though before the 'command practice' procedure becomes a lot more common place once we see some guidelines introduced into the CASA documents.
You are right about that one. The following quote is from the proposed amendment to Civil Aviation Regulation 5.40 concerning the Multi-crew Pilot Licence:
5.40(1)(a)(i) pilot acting in command under supervision
Insert - multi-crew pilot licence
intent - to allow an MPL holder to operate, and accrue hours, as pilot in command under supervision
It seems that CASA does not have a problem with pilots using ICUS to "accrue hours"
I'm happy to eat my words. But mate you just can't go making statements like this without backing them up with reference to CAO/CAR. We don't do command practice in this country and ICUS is conducted from the left seat with a suitably qualified Training Captain in the right....PERIOD.
I am also happy to eat my words. Maybe you could back up your statements with reference to CAO/CAR and set me straight?

[bushy]

Surely you need an ATPL to be endorsed to fly a multi crew aircraft above 5700kg as PIC?
How then can a CPL holder meet the requirement to have that command endorsement in order to log ICUS?

[Islander Jock]

Bushy,
Surely you need an ATPL to be endorsed to fly a multi crew aircraft above 5700kg as PIC?
I can't quote a reference but someone I know checked with a CASA FOI and their position on it is that you can log ICUS without an ATPL but that can only be with a C&T Captain doing the supervision.

[404 Titan]

bushy

You don’t need an ATPL to have a P1 rating on a multi crew aircraft above 5700 kg. To log PIC though you do require an ATPL but to log ICUS or P1US you only require a CPL.

Islander Jock

Almost all correct except the FOI was wrong in stating that you have to have a C&T next to you. Certainly in the majors and in most regionals, CAR 5.40 is followed to the “T” and states that only a line captain is required to supervise an FO logging ICUS. Maybe your friend needs to point that out to this FOI who quite clearly doesn't understand or know his own regs to have a re-read of CAR 5.40.

[piston broke again]

Put it this way...when an F/O is being trained up to be a captain, he is sitting in the left and flying with a check and trainer and logging ICUS. Technically speaking, he/she doesn't necessarily need an ATPL until he is checked to line as Captain and logging command.

And now back to the actual thread....

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Bushy,

You do not need an ATPL to hold a command endorsement on a multi crew above 5700 kg aircraft.

You do however require an ATPL to be the PIC of said aircraft in Charter or RPT.

So a CPL holding Cadet can not ever be PIC of a Metro23 in RPT or Charter. Purely and simply because the aircraft is above 5700kg, although can do in a Conquest.

This little gem finds it way into CAO 40.1.0:

10.5 The holder of a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence may log as time in command the total time elapsed during his or her command, in flight, of an aeroplane. He or she may log as co-pilot the total time during which he or she serves as co-pilot.

Command does not mean "at the controls", it assumes you are qualified in all respects to be the PIC, such as an FO on a B747, whereas the SO probably would not be qualified.

[Icarus2001]

See, clear as mud. It appears that the wrong interpretation at Skippers meant any line Captain could allow ICUS by the FO when they have changed their tune now to only training captains supervising FO whilst logging ICUS.

Yes the seat does not matter, in command does not mean manipulating pilot. A long haul Captain on a 747 who goes down the back for a sleep is still in command of the aircraft whilst not even on the flight deck!

[Icarus2001]

Huggy bear says the word on the street is that the Qantas boys and girls working as cadets at Skippers have been given the tap on the shoulder and are heading East....is it true, if so how will the numbers stack up?

[piston broke again]

Its direct entry candidates heading east from what I've heard. No cadets. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[brown_hornet]

Some cadets did in fact get the call up, there is also a couple of new pilots for the Braz/Dash doing groundschool atm to replace them.

Cheers.

[sicilian]

Gday guys,

Anybody had an interview for a command position recently? If so any info would be much appreciated.

cheers

[Icarus2001]

It appears the prospect of parking aircraft against the fence is now a reality. Only three Metro Captains remain and two training Captains. Bras hanging in there...more recruitment from the other side happening...CASA taking great interest in operations...cabin crew trainer resigns in disgust...:eek:

[aussie027]

Icarus 2001--
Is that info from reliable sources in the company or just hearsay around the airport????
If reliable do you have any other info re goings on in the company???
if so please share.
Thanks

[piston broke again]

How many captains has the bras got these days?

[Continental-520]

There are more than 3 Metro Captains.

You may note that all the Metro's are parked against the fence at Skippers cause that's where they normally park.

It is normal to see an aircraft, be it a Metro or otherwise out on the disused taxiway due to limited space on the ramp since the new Dash arrived.

520.

[Icarus2001]

I think I said three Metro Captains and two training Captains, making a total of five. TA is casual, so is SJ and GH is torn between fleets it would seem.

Great, all is going very well then, good to hear.:rolleyes:

[Led Zep]

I can confirm Icarus2001...five captains (combined) for six aircraft. Might as well pull one of them offline for a paint job!! :E
Although I do believe there is no shortage of metro first officers. :}
520, they ran out of space there long before XFX...

[Icarus2001]

Apology accepted.

That would be causing some serious heartache then?

[Valdiviano]

is d frazer with skippers??????

[bluefour]

i flew at skippers untill early this year on the braz and for what the place is it's not as bad as some silver spooners make it out to be. i just had the requirements for command when they offered the job to me, and i grabbed it and didn't let go. yes there are guys with the minimum requirments flying them now as well, but i ve flown with people who are switched on with 1500 hrs and can do the job well and i ve flown with poeple with a load more experience than that and i wuoldn't let them drive my car. my advice "if your happy were you are tell everyone else to f#*k off". the grass isn't any greener anywhere else anyway (QF, VB, etc...)

[Icarus2001]

my advice "if your happy were you are tell everyone else to f#*k off". the grass isn't any greener anywhere else anyway (QF, VB, etc...) ...hilarious.....YOU LEFT didn't you.:ok:

[Continental-520]

Well, let me count:

SJ, TA, AL, AS, CC, SL, SM.

That counts 7 to me!

Did I hear "apology accepted", Icarus??

Or do you just not want to count the two full time Check and Trainers?


520.

[Erin Brockovich]

7 Captains for 6 Metros (according to their website)? That is beyond sustainable. The company is clearly past the point of no return.

I would have thought 3 Captains per plane as a minimum. Looks like Skippers might be the first of many regional sized companies to be terminally affected by the pilot shortage. I say terminally because the early symptoms were clearly ignored, and 7 Captains for 6 planes is quite laughable.

How could anyone with a vested interest in Skippers let it come to this? Incompetence? Loathing for pilots? Greed? All of the above?

I know this is a rumour network, but unless the Skippers website is wrong; and Continental-520 is wrong (and he/she protests otherwise); then I am going to run with the numbers. This equates to about 9.5hrs block to block utilization time per plane per day assuming bare minimum sign on (also assuming computerised duty program and 5 day week). Then that is also assuming no training, holidays, sick days……yada yada, you get the picture.

Now, what’s occurring on the Metro fleet will also occur on the other fleets (if it hasn’t already). Sh$t pay and little respect will cause pilots to go elsewhere, and there are plenty of options. If the company is treading water now, then the future is bleak!

You reap what you sow, and It finally looks like the years of planting sub-standard T & Cs is paying off. Bring in the harvest!

[Icarus2001]

Continental let us not argue whilst Rome burns ;) how about we add the TWO casuals together SJ and TA and call them ONE Captain. SJ spends most of his time on C441 anyway. Truce.
Shed Dog, yes...The encouraging point to note here is that the CP/HCC must be a solid, dedicated individual not willing to compromise on the required standard. ..actually TWO different people. FS manager and MFO/CP.
What is ...it highlights the rostering/bean counters inability to assurp authority,
Would it kill them to pay more and treat their staff better? The increased costs are passed on to the client anyway?

[piston broke again]

Anyone know what happened with the recent exodus?

[Continental-520]

Icarus,

Whatever mate. 7 is 7, casual or otherwise. SJ has been spending a lot of time on the Metro recently, for obvious reasons.

Either way, Erin is quite right in that the number of pilots for airframes is not sustainable in the longer term. Skippers aren't the only company encountering this problem, of course...


520.

[captwawa]

Whether it's 7 or 5 or 20 the fact of the matter is that they are in the poo with crew - they will never pay more and try to do more with less and less..... would anyone like to work in ops at the moment - I doubt it.

There is only so far that you can cut to the bone and they are starting to see the white hard stuff through the flesh that is left.

Just because you may be in the left seat of a pencil does not make you an expert by any stretch - stay with them a year or so and then let us know whether you think the sun still shines southward.

Seeing that you are so close to the sun's source there, you would surely know that some of the bigger stuff may not be seeing much 'regular' action soon - and where have all the red cadets gone and why??

:ok: onya wawa

[Towering Q]

Hey Conti, you left out a few Metro Captains.
You forgot....
WH YA RE SO MA NY PI LO TS LE AV IN GS KI PP and ERS.

[exmexican]

Or what about the ones who recently left
BE CA US EM AN AG EM EN TG AV TH EM TH ES HI TS AN DT HE PA YI SP EA NU TS
AN DW HE RE HA VE AL LT HE QA NT AS CA DE TS GO NE?

[Led Zep]

Sounds like one of the 5, 6 or 7 pencil captains has an XR interview shortly.
So you might as well call it 4, 5, or 6!!!! :}

[Continental-520]

Wa wa,

Just because you may be in the left seat of a pencil does not make you an expert by any stretch - stay with them a year or so and then let us know whether you think the sun still shines southward.


I never claimed to be anything of an expert, mate. All I have done is try and infer some facts with reference to the subject of the slander above. Didn't think that was such a sin, but obviously on Pprune it is!

As I also said,

Erin is quite right in that the number of pilots for airframes is not sustainable in the longer term. Skippers aren't the only company encountering this problem, of course...


So don't tell me that I'm proclaiming that the "sun shines southward". The fact that they are in strife is as much of a fact as that of having 7 Metro Captains, at the moment.

And in reference to your last query, I can't shed any light on that, cause I'm not in the know on those things. I would not have any facts to present to you. It seems to be a thing of the past in aviation to block out all the internal politics and just get on with the job.


520.

[flyingfox]

For Valdiviano; D fraz is at NJS.

[captwawa]

I never claimed to be anything of an expert

and I didn't say you were one either

but then you claim;

It seems to be a thing of the past in aviation to block out all the internal politics and just get on with the job.

when has that ever been the case - what a load of **** - pilots generally will generally fcuk other pilots over - always has, always will.

i wonder how the guys with interviews at xr went/go?

By the way it's wawa not Wa wa.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Wawa,

We all have the right to an opinion, just because yours is not the same as 520's, certainly does not invalidate his/hers.

From what i've read you are the one that decided to get personal Just because you may be in the left seat of a pencil does not make you an expert by any stretch

Now that really wasn't necessary was it ?.

And to go a step further

pilots generally will generally fcuk other pilots over

Your profile states 737ng based in BN, would that be VB by any chance ?. If that is the case, perhaps some here will scrutinise your right to an opinion, you know, the whole pay endorsement business.

Debating is fine, just don't get personal.

[OpsNormal]

Well said Lefty.:D:D:D:D

[piston broke again]

Interesting times...
Aircraft being cross hired from other co's due to lack of crews.
Another few captains to leave in the coming month or 2 as well.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

That has been happening for quite some time.

All operators in the Skippers size range are having similar problems, having to cancel flights, off load charters, lots of double flight days and the ineviatable losing contracts to bigger aircraft operators ( why is Alliance/Skywest/OZjet doing so well ? ).

It is a fight for survival for these companies, the company that can obtain, train and retain suitably qualified and experienced pilots will win, the ones who do not will not be in the Yellow Pages in 12-18months, it is the way aviation works.

If you do not believe me, compare the 1999 Yellow Pages Aviation section to the 2007's one.

The concept of above award wages, reasonably solid rosters, not pushing the F&D limits and being treated with a little respect wins hands down.

Not all Pilots aspire to the Airlines.

[Erin Brockovich]

Can anyone confirm? I heard from a little bird today, who heard from a cat, who heard from a rat in the crew room skirting boards that 3 or 4 more pilots have resigned to go the Skywest. Two of those Metro Captains.

Doesn’t that make 5 Capts for 6 planes at best. That means TH EY RF UK ED are left.

This company seems to be a circus among circuses! I can’t believe they pay their Metro and Brasilia Captains less than Skywest pays their F50 First Officers. They should be paying more than F50 Captains just to keep their current pilots.

The mind boggles. Armature hour incorporated!

[duck_man]

Its confirmed!

One more metro captain fell off the pay role, now that leaves 3 casual captains and 1 full time!

will be seeing this in the Readersmart this Sunday: For sale: 6 metros twenty threes to go to a good home, be prepard to pay through the roof, you will secure pilots for these planes if you pay them more than what we have, its garenteed!

[BrazDriver]

The Implosion continues!

[Icarus2001]

Wh ofe llof fth ep ayr ol l?

[Rather Be Sailing!]

Congrats Snuff Snuff!:D

[Towering Q]

Interesting times. 3 to 4 years ago pilots were selling their grandmothers to score a job with this operator.

I work with guys and girls with the minimum requirements who are no longer interested in even applying. They seem to be happy to stay put and aim for something better.

[White and Fluffy]

Looks like they might have an over supply of pilots if all their conquests are grounded!

Anyone know which mines this will affect?

[SmokingHole]

Talking to one of their konky drivers the other day. They mostly use them to take care of all the adhoc stuff. Sounded like a pretty good gig as far as single pilot stuff goes - apart from the fact it's with SA:cool:

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

TQ,
Selling Grandmothers ?, apparently Wiz is trying to give his away.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Cont 520,

Over a beer heard apparently more to Skywest and Virgin, who remains from your:
SJ, TA, AL, AS, CC, SL, SM.

10-15K in the pay packet has worked for other organisations in this predicament.

[Towering Q]

Conti might be too busy studying "supersonic aerodynamics" to answer that.:oh:

LRT, I thought the Wiz would have been too old to have grandparents to give away.

[jarjar]

Ha Ha TQ, slip of the keyboard, no need to rub it in.:)

JarJar

[piston broke again]

Should only be SJ, TA, AL and SL remaining in a month or so.

[the wizard of auz]

LHRT, my Nana says your the best she's had and she wouldn't even consider letting me give her away. you spoiled her mate. (you know......like I did with your sister and mum) :E
TQ.....mate, I'm only 26. I just had a hard life.:ok:

[vee tail]

A hard life WIZ, I think more like the life of an intersate mack bonnet emblem thinking bout your wear and tear, or should i say wear and torn!!:ok:

[Continental-520]

Piston Broke Again is on the money.


520.

[the wizard of auz]

Yeah.onya Vee tail..........you oil painting you. :ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Apparently Network have just given their Pilots an unprompted significant pay rise.

Maroomba/NJS apparently already pay better SA, and these companies are not having the same staffing problems, it just defies logic :).

[the wizard of auz]

maybe a step sideways is required mate...........literally. :}
Hey, my Nana likes you too. :E

[Richo]

Well Well, Shed dog T, tell US more.

[Mecarsa Bitrusty]

I’ve heard the same info about Network, I wonder how long it will take for Skippers to come to the party? The last thing they need is for people to defect to network for more cash!

[Ref + 10]

Network rumour isn't true.

[Mickster]

vref+10
Aww...don't let the truth get in the way of a good rumour! :)

[Ref + 10]

Sorry Mick. I would have love to have verified it and told you that we were now paid the same as senior QF 744 drivers. Alas....

On another note, apparently they are offering some rather lucrative numbers to people who have other jobs to go to in order to get them to stay. Around a 50% rise. But they are taking the lesser paying jobs because of the better working environment with other operators.

Why does it have to be this way?? The reactiveness of this industry astounds me when a bit of forward thinking would cost less and make companies so much better in the mid term run. Over the long run the companies would recoup their money 20 fold... Sorry, drifted off into la-la land there at the end.

[piston broke again]

Word is on the street theres a new AWA doing the rounds - 75K for Metro drivers, 95K for Bras. Not before time.

[aircraft]

piston broke again:
Word is on the street theres a new AWA doing the rounds - 75K for Metro drivers, 95K for Bras. Not before time.

There is no way this can be true. These companies just do not make this kind of money.

When are you guys going to wake up to the true nature of your own industry?

[Valdiviano]

Aircraft, go and buy today's AUSTRALIAN

[neville_nobody]

Ahh I wouldn't be so quick on that one Aircraft. I have no inside information however it would not be beyond the realms of possibility that the mining companies are subsidising the extra costs.

Skippers situation is a classic example of supply and demand that you often seem to crap on about on these forums. At the current labour price there ain't enough people, so therefore the price needs to increase to stimulate the supply.

On saying that I would be suprised if it happened though :}

[Wizofoz]

When are you guys going to wake up to the true nature of your own industry?

The nature of this industry is NO PILOTS= NO INDUSTRY!!

I know you're a troll aircraft, but there's no need ot be a stupid one!!

[piston broke again]

Aircraft,

75K for a metro isn't that much considering super is included in that total. Most companies around add super as an extra on top of the quoted salary. Not Skippers.

[freddyKrueger]

A troll's main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board's other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning.Wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll)

Winning by Losing
Conclusively proven. There appears to be a serious mental defect located somewhere between the keyboard and the chair.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Just perused a friends new AWA.

In my opinion, not the great gift it would appear, many extra conditions that i personally would not have accepted, including 3 months notice of resignation or pay the organisation in lieu, in addition to paying out ones bond .

Perhaps you guys should have this one read very carefully by an IR lawyer or Union rep.

Good luck.

[Led Zep]

Yesssssss, I heard some new AWAs were sent out, and the amounts touted were $75k for a metro and between 90k-104k for the braz and dash 8s.

Close the gate, the horse has bolted!

[Wombat]

I think you will also find that the rates of salary quoted are inclusive of the 9% superannuation.
eg: approx 68k plus super = 75k for the Metro.

Oh well, at least they have raised the salaries which is a good start. Will be interesting to see what the other charter companies on the field do.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

It will be interesting to see how many actually sign this AWA in its present form.

It is very positive that the company is offering staff a higher salary, it is a move that will probably ensure their survival in this looming "pilot shortage", well done on that front.

Hopefully they will be willing to negotiate the finer details with their staff, both parties will probably have a win ( I would imagine most will be happy with the money offered, just not some of the conditions that have been presented ).

Perhaps a Pilot/Management meeting over a couple of beers on friday arvo could abate concerns of both parties.

What would be the outcome, if a majority of the Pilots asked a Union to represent them in this ( NJS Pilots are seeing positive action and sustainable change on the way ).

[Boney]

Aircraft, age 23



Says it all I think - get some life experience son and then we may take you seriously.

[aircraft]

I have now seen the relevant job ad in the Australian. For those that haven't, Skippers are offering "remuneration rates commencing at $95K for Dash 8 and Brasilia captains and $75K for Metro". The ad also states that these salaries are dependent on experience and qualifications (so whether that means the quoted figures are the minimum or the maximum is unclear).

My earlier post regarding salaries of this magnitude being impossible was based on the job having "conventional" terms and conditions.

But for salaries like this, I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!

Some supporting evidence for my earlier post is contained in this quote from the recent Geoffrey Thomas article that was posted to another thread by freddyKrueger:

But while the airline industry is vibrant, it is under enormous cost pressures as the resource industry plays off up to nine players: Qantas, QantasLink, Skywest, NJS, Alliance Airlines, OZ-jet, Virgin Blue, Network Aviation and Skippers Aviation.

Sure, the mining industry has the money to fund contracts that could, by themselves, pay these kinds of salaries, but why would some mining company enter into such a contract with an operator that runs clapped out old turboprops? If the contract is for traditional FIFO, they could get a different operator, more cheaply, but for the same level of safety.

Mining companies are finding it harder to attract their own employees in the current boom. One way to attract them is via added safety measures that apply to the FIFO flights. Pilot salaries are not visible to the workers but the interiors and exteriors of the clapped out old turboprops are. If you were a mining company wouldn't you rather be spending the extra money on visible safety features?

[Led Zep]

Well done aircraft! You can start by getting these mining companies to stop flying around 35 year old PA31s/C402s and put their employees into a nice new single engine turbine!!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of that? :hmm::ugh:
If I'm correct, some of those "clapped out turboprops" that are flown by Network in fact belong to some of their mining clients. It isn't like all the jet aircraft being flown around WA are spring chickens. I'm not going to get into how many times I've seen interior and exterior refurbishments on the turboprop fleet based in Perth over the past four years. :rolleyes:

Yep, winning by losing, aircraft.

[Stick Pusher]

here's an additional thought,

From my memory i believe most of the FIFO also required certain experience levels of crews as well....

I'm sure now that the experience levels have dropped far below what was or is required... i wonder if these companies are aware of the severe drop in crew experience...? (let alone age and conditions of aircraft)

just another couple of cents tossed in...:}

[KRUSTY 34]

Chr!st!

Here we go again.

OK, we'll offer you a pay rise but only because we care....

and by the way, just leave your first born on the chair on the way out.

While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), will pinch what is left of their drivers by offering real incentives, without the strings.

Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right, without sacrificing conditions. 10 years of one sided "negotiations" has led us to the place we are today. Crap wages and crap conditions. For that very reason, suitably qualified pilots are becoming difficult to attract, and even more difficult to keep.

Yet these blokes (management types) still try to bung it on!!!

Well all I can say is, keep up the brinkmanship, the stall tactics, and all the strings attached, and your business will pay the price.

[MUNT]

aircraft,

If the contract is for traditional FIFO, they could get a different operator, more cheaply, but for the same level of safety.


The majority of mining companies conduct extensive audits of operators. These audits address everything from the asthetics of the aircraft to the operating culture among the crew. I can think of one lucrative northern Australian contract in particular; The contract was awarded to a company with older aircraft (and less comfortable). Said operator however, had a wealth of experience in its ranks and a sound operational safety culture, which is usually bred out of a motivated, satisfied workforce. All offers on the table were similarly quoted, so its safe to assume the decision wasn't price driven.

What am I getting at?
"for the same level of safety" bollocks. Operational safety, and since we are talking about pilots here I am referring to everything from training to CRM, is directly affected by engagement, experience and training. Both of these are negatively impacted when conditions are below industry climate average (as the case has been with Skippers recently). Simply put, the experience in a company that cuts corners, is drained, training is abreviated and a cowboy operating culture can squeeze its way in.

To assume the mining companies don't give a damn is foolish. One audit, once incident is all it takes.

[Stick Pusher]

one incident is all it takes..

Braz @ Jundee....? :} you'd like to think so :ugh:

p.s from what i hear the audit company a lot of the mines use aren't worth two... speaking to some people who have delt with them they don't look under to many rocks when they visit...:rolleyes:
any how....!
SP

[Erin Brockovich]

I have rung around to settle my curiosity on this offer from Skippers (lack thereof) and have come to the conclusion that it is just a polished turd!

A pretty poor attempt to keep pilots. They have only offered this ‘deal’ because they are down to 5 Bras Capts for 6 planes and 3 Metro Capts for 6 planes (from the same source). All those who resigned are still leaving! The clients are pissed.

95k for the Dash and Bras is false advertising.

95k minus 9% Super = 86.45k
86.45k minus 3 months notice (say 2, 1 month is standard) 14.41k = 72.04k
72k. Isn’t that close to what the Dash guys are on anyway?
72.04k minus up to 25k bond (and you are bonded even if your type rated!!!) = 47.04

Now for $47,000 you get to be a Capt on a Dash or Bras working max duty in a company with low morale with the normal bonds and notice applied. Great work of art this document is.

I can’t believe I’m about to do this but I agree with aircraft on this

I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!
But he/she didn’t mention this from the same article

The massive disruption of a potential pilots strike has sent shudders through mine sites. With the FIFO aircraft as important as Christmas at home and with a raft of contracts up for renewal in the next 12 months, industrial harmony will take precedence over price.
Such management arrogance is astounding in the current climate. People will still vote with their feet.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

from what i hear the audit company a lot of the mines use aren't worth two.......

Assuming Stick Pusher you are referring to Harts, i would suggest you have not dealt with them directly.

I have been personally ( as the CP/DCP ) audited three times by Harts, these guys are very good at what they do, their audits are exceptionally thorough and pick up on issues i thought would be beyond their abilities for a two or three day audit.

IMHO BHP and the like are spending their money very wisely with Harts as their aviation representatives.

[Big Jan]

Erin and others.
If it's been mentioned before please forgive me as I have not read every post on this thread.Erin you mentioned the clients being pissed in a previous post.Surely making the guy's at the top of the mining tree aware personally why flights are getting canned would have to make a difference.The amounts of money involved for them when a flight cannot operate and they can't bring in a shift change must be staggering. I can't believe they would stand for this sort of mismanagement when they pay their staff the money they do to ensure that they don;t have these sorts of problems.
Anyway, good luck to you guy's at Skippers !:ok:

[aircraft]

KRUSTY 34:

While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), ...
Actually, that would be zero "smart players", going on your definition. Leaving aside the question of how you would know what the "smart players" are doing when there aren't any, what does it tell you - that, according to your definition, there aren't any "smart players"?

Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right ...
Err, where did you get the idea that this is a right? This may come as an awful shock, but we have no such right.

If more people realised this there would be less rancour over terms and conditions. And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation the level of rancour would be approaching zero!

[wateroff]

SKIPPERS - DASH / BRASILIA / METRO CAPTAINS

Skippers are currently seeking suitably experienced Dash 8, Brasilia & Metro Captains to fill vacant positions based in Perth.

Remuneration rates commencing at $95k+ for D8 & EMB and $75K+ for M23 fleets are offered based on experience and qualifications. Endorsed applicants are preferred, however applicants possessing multi-crew experience on similar types will also be considered.

Slowly but surely..............

[freddyKrueger]

This is being discussed on the skippers thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259924&page=9) starting post #162.

[Wizofoz]

And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation

The nature of commercial aviation is that it is a BUSINESS. One vital part of managing a business is to ensure you attract and retain enough qualified staff to operate that business.

If skippers is at the point where it has less crews than aircraft, it has failed in this basic management task.

Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?

[Gooose]

Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?


give all their pilots a pay rise - even a 12 yo can come up with that answer :p

[lemel]

the aviation industry is CRAP!!!!!
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.

i have mates in other industries earning 70K in their first jobs with company cars and loads of other benifits such as company charge cards, all expences paid trips for them and their partners once tarkets have been made, etc.

who are we kidding, we are never going to get the respect, pay and conditions that we deserve. especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.

my 2 cents worth.

LemeL

[Gooose]

especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.


:= dont stereotype - some of those cpls in the right hand seat do have time and have gone north, but still were required to pay to sit in the right hand seat

[Towering Q]

the aviation industry is CRAP!!!!!
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.


Only partly true. The majority see it as an essential step towards reaching the perceived holy grail of an airline job. They also realise that it is only a temporary position and will endure the cr@p pay/conditions that go with it.

The problem for these operators is that the supply of willing candidates is fast running out.:E

[galdian]

Towering Q

Simply, erudite and (unfortunately) correct.

EOFS
Cheers
galdian

[Ref + 10]

Mickster, at the time of last post Network hadn't but since then they have followed suit only on a slightly smaller scale. Shed Dog, either you have a fantastically well placed source at Network or your expereince gazing into the crystal ball really came through because you were spot on but about 5 days ahead of it actually coming to life. ;)

[lemel]

"I think Lemel was referring to the Skippers cadet program, paid for by their parents and cheeky as ever! "

Brazdriver, that is correct.

Towering Q, I understand what you are saying and it is true. However it still happens even when you get to that airline job! look at jet star. the pay and conditions there are not by any means fantastic. like i said, airlines will exploit the fact that pilots have a true passion for their jobs. the only way this will change is if there is a huge shortage. in my opinion, that huge shortage will never come (the shortage we are experiencing is for experienced drivers, we do however have plenty of low hour pilots floating around).

i hope for all of our sakes that i am wrong!

LemeL:ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

That AWA appears to be a Rope-a-dope, from conversations I've had and overheard with these pilots, I do not think too many are going to sign it in its present form.

Cadet programs do not appear to offer very good outcomes, the logging of ICUS is a huge irregularity that will sooner or later come under some serious scrutiny from CASA ( watch this space ), in much the same way as the intent of the RPT legislation was closely looked at in the past and ruled upon, big changes followed. CPL holders logging ICUS in an above 5700kg pressurised turbine whilst on Charter or RPT. This will add to the woes of this level of the industry.

[Hugh Jarse]

Gidday Jet A. Can you explain to me how a cadet or otherwise can log ICUS on line routine flights with a normal line Captain, when only 1 pilot can be nominated as PIC?

For example (as you know), I'm not a training captain. So, as far as I know when an FO flies with me he/she logs all his/her time as FO and 50% goes towards his/her total aeronautical experience or whatever. He or she is NOT the PIC (under supervision or otherwise). He or she is just the pilot manipulating the controls on his or her sector with the PIC (me) making the final decisions as to the disposition of the flight.

The only ICUS I have ever logged was during my upgrade training when under the supervision of my Training Captain. Well, that's the way it works at Qantaslink.

[404 Titan]

Hugh Jarse

Mate, this has been debated to death, but it is perfectly legal for a cadet to log ICUS under normal ops if:

1. They hold the minimum of a CPL.
2. They have a command endorsement on type.
3. The company authorises FO’s including cadets to log ICUS. This will usually be spelt out in the company ops manual.
4. The company states that all line captains are authorises to supervise FO’s logging ICUS when the FO’s the pilot flying. This will usually be spelt out as in 3.

Not all companies will have this in place but in those that do it is done on a regular basis. It is widely done in airlines like QF mainline that employ large numbers of cadets. It is obvious why they do do it, because if they didn’t the cadets would never qualify for an ATPL and hence a command. It must also be pointed out that ICUS isn’t PIC. Only one pilot can log PIC and that is the captain.

All this is possible through CAR 5.40. It is a common rule throughout the world in various countries aviation regulations. It was developed by ICAO for airlines so they could employ cadets and low time pilots that under normal circumstances would never qualify for an ATPL due to lack of command hours. ICUS is also known as P1US.
5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:

(a) the person holds:

(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

or

(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

and

(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command;

and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned;

and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;

and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;

and

(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

[Ref + 10]

Can someone please start a dedicated thread to this subject and not keep bringing this up on a multitude of others threads. Driving me crazy seeing and hearing the same stuff on totally non-related threads.

404, start it then finish it cause you seem to have the patience to see the argument through. For that reason I can't start it. It's drive me nuts!! :ugh:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Won't need to debate this issue for much longer ( watch this space ).

[slice]

404 - I think the issue is that some co-pilots(and not cadets either) have been logging ICUS regardless of requirements of items 3 & 4 that you list. Basically just trying to pad command hours I think!

[404 Titan]

slice

In which case the CP should pick it up when he/she verifies the log book entries a true representation of the FO’s hours. I personally haven’t seen any company, particularly airlines that take a candidate’s hours and log book entries at face value. They require them to be stamped as true by the candidate’s current company.

[piston broke again]

Shed Dog,

Sounds like you have something you need to get off your chest?

[podbreak]

Hugh Jarse and others:

The ICUS discussion, as 404 mentioned, has been done to death. It rears its ugly head several times a year!

As I remember it, last time the question was posed, it was given a thorough enquiry by JetA (who fortunately came around!).

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Sounds like you have something you need to get off your chest?

No, although i find it hard to accept that the intent behind the legislation was to allow Pilots to qualifiy for an ATPL without ever having any real world command experience. If CAR 5.40 was to be considered as a correct and stand alone piece of legislation, what 404 is stating would be correct.

WRT the advertisment in the Australian for Pilots, it could be misleading, the wages for these guys have not changed eg,

Including Super (9%), the figure are/have been for sometime:
Conq a bit over $53K,
Metro a bit under $60K,
Bras a bit over $63K,
Dash 8 $72 odd and $75 odd.

These figure do not appear changed.

So the figures quotes in the advertisement are inclusive of:

1) base salaries as above,

2) $10-25K odd dollar "productivity bonus", not sure if its paid weekly, yearly, it does not even specifically rate a mention in the "Base Remuneration", so it is not a "salary", being a bonus, it could be withdrawn at any time.

3) Superannuation, so subtract 9% from all the above figures.

If you are concerned, perhaps you should give Rick Burton at the TWU a call: 0417 914 108, if you are not sure who he is, read the NJS/Cobham threads.

[404 Titan]

Shed Dog Tosser
i find it hard to accept that the intent behind the legislation was to allow Pilots to qualifiy for an ATPL without ever having any real world command experience. If CAR 5.40 was to be considered as a correct and stand alone piece of legislation, what 404 is stating would be correct.
I can assure you that was the exact intent of the legislation. You have to ask yourself why ICAO came up with it in the first place? It is because airlines around the world told them that it was a necessity if the airlines were going to expand just as they have with the MPL recently. It wasn’t ICAO that dreamt it up. It was the airlines telling ICAO what it needed. You would be staggered at the amount of lobbying that goes on behind the scenes by the airlines of the world.

And yes it is a stand alone piece of legislation.

[podbreak]

SDT;

For years the same sentiment has come from the same corner of this industry; how can these, usually cadets, ever command when they've never done it before. Truth is, the system has been in place since the late 60s. Many senior C&T captains now at retirement, who participated in the first cadet courses could explain this to you alot better than myself.

My guess is, you have come from saab/metro/braz/dash or similar. The majority of operators in this country flying these types do not use this legislation in the same manor as the bulk of large carriers. That is: When an FO takes a sector, they are essentially in command, with the supervision of the skipper (Hence ICUS). As an FO, then, you are essentially training to become a captain on every single sector you fly. This is a much more suitable use of time, rather than being a support pilot throughout and forgetting how to command.

Of this real world command experience you speak of; If you call an extra 500 hours in a single pilot piston twin real world command experience, you are going to be hard pressed world wide finding pilots to fill seats. Who says that you need this to command a multicrew high performance aircraft? A handful of mostly Australians. I'm sure you'd cop a few angry looks, if you told all those who didn't have your real world experience before they took command, that they shouldn't have been allowed to. After all, these may be the very folk teaching you how to fly a particular type in the future.

[slice]

podbreak - The intent of the legislation was to allow Command trainees to log ICUS whilst under training - not for Co-pilotsto log them during PF legs. ICUS has nothing to do whatsoever with PF(in this country least - different I believe in the UK). In fact some would argue that during command training the PNF legs are far more important as this is where the essential monitoring and supervision skills are learnt.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Folk have been quiet for a few days on this thread, is it because you've all signed your new AWA ?.

[Towering Q]

Either that or they haven't been able to get a word in with all this ICUS discussion.:{

[White and Fluffy]

Thats probably because there are no pilots left at Skippers!

[Jet_A_Knight]

Podbreak wrote:
it was given a thorough enquiry by JetA (who fortunately came around!).

It was this Jet_A that gave a thorough enquiry, and still thinks that a co-pilot logging command from the RHS on normal line operations is just kidding themselves.

Earn command the honest way - by learning the ropes & doing the training - not stealing the time.

That's why on applications there's sections for showing actual command and ICUS.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Poddy, whatever!

I accept it - but I don't agree with it.

Happy landings:ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Apparently about to lose another 3, maybe 4 Brasilia Captains, how many will that leave ?.

This "other operators" are also reference checking some of the remains of the Metro and Dash fleet Captains, an unbelievable turning of the tide.

Can this be true ?, very sad :uhoh:.

Guess the question from my last post has been answered.

[laser650]

SDT

The AWA that they boys have to sign to get a $20,000 or 30000 bonus for the Dash/Bras Fleet respectively, is a rough and unfair constitution of an AWA from what I've seen. :ugh:

Who in the hell has to give a 3 month notice of resignation??? Some very high powered exec's on millions only have to give one pay periods notice. Does this go against a fair AWA?? Will it be approved? Probably so by the little Johnny pen pushers who wont even spot the 90 day period. They will say to you "you signed it". :=

This might be an awakening for Skippers as to why some Captains may not sign the AWA. Why would they sign to give a 3 month notice of them leaving and having to 'pay in lieu' if they do leave! Chances of other jobs out there from other jet operators in the near future is fastly growing.

Skippers could fix this by giving a firm yet solid pay rise with the same AWA conditions. Beware of the add for you guys that may be considering SA, Be vary aware........SA are not trustworthy! :E

I feel sorry for you guys over their!

Laser

[KRUSTY 34]

IMHO, a bonus, and a real bonus is probably the way to go.

For this size of operation, say $20K for F/O's & $30K for Captains. Make it payable every 12 months, and completely dependant on the full years service. Leave even 1 day prior to the 12 month period and you don't get a zack!

Forget about the strings (3 months notice, what nonsence), people see through that kind of cynisism and will reject it, especially in todays dynamic employment environment.

Those who stay to take advantage of the bonus will more than likely plan their future financial goals around it. You will probably "hook" them for years, if not for life.

Those that move on regardless, and good luck to them, won't cost the company a cent!

If we're talking about the viability of the company, a real no-brainer I would think.

[aircraft]

KRUSTY 34,

With your imagination, you should write novels - you would make a lot more money than you will in aviation.

A bonus is not a bonus if it is a fixed amount that is paid every year. What you are talking about is a pay rise - pure and simple.

But do you seriously think Skippers can afford pay rises of that magnitude?

If we're talking about the viability of the company, a real no-brainer I would think.We are talking about the viability of the company - it is always about the viability of the company, but the only thing that is a "no-brainer" is that if you give those kind of pay rises, the company will go broke.

You just can't grasp this simple reality can you?

[Skystar320]

Will or Wont?

They both start with teh letter W.......

Flying cash cows come mind......

[slice]

aircraft - ultimately yes they can or more to the point they are going to have to. After all they seem to have afforded the huge increases in fuel costs. In the raw calculus of business. labor is just another cost like fuel, nav charges etc. You have to pay the going rate. As aircrew demand is now beginning to exceed supply and likely to continue to do so for some time, renumeration will generally rise.

[BrazDriver]

Large mining companies have never been afraid to splash a bit of cash here and there to subsidise pilots wages. Rio has done it previously, including paying for housing too!

The question is if mining companies pay a bit extra to pilots, how much of that money will end up in the Skippers coffers or in management pockets and not in the pilots!

[KRUSTY 34]

Yes aircraft it is a bonus.

A Professional retention bonus. It is a payment made to professional pilots for a certain return of service.

Professional pilots are now in short supply, and unless something positive is done, this situation will worsen.

I applaud your conviction in placing yourself in the lion's den. Some people dismiss you merely as a troll.

Maybe they're right. But one thing is for certain you are certainly not a Professional Pilot!

[triathlon]

skippers is ok to work for. have good management and pay is above award.

[Brasilian Bird]

have good management

That depends on your definition of 'good'.

Some people say Hitler was very good at what he did, too!! :}Seriously though, how long have you worked there? If it's less than 6 months, give it another 6 and see what you say then!!! :E

These 'good' managers are doing a 'great' job of running this company into the ground, and have been doing it for quite some time!! Just look at the so-called 'juicy carrot' they are dangling for newbies... they can't even get it right when they try to fix things!! I concede the one thing they did right was to pay up their engos, those guys are probably the best treated in the whole company!!

[aircraft]

Wizofoz said:
Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?
There may not be anything it can do. Some people think that only huge pay rises will do, but, whilst that most probably would work (if it's not too late), that option is way, way beyond the means of Skippers or any other similar operator.

It is quite normal for a business to have to close down as a result of changed economic circumstances - it happens all the time (aviation or not). As aviation businesses usually run on razor thin profits it doesn't take much of a change to send them to the wall.

If Skippers does close its doors, can it be said that it was all the fault of management? Possibly - but some challenges to the viability of a business can be so great that no management can deal with them.

Skippers Aviation has been an experiment in pilot/employer relationships. Being tested is whether the company can be successful when it treats the pilots with as little regard as the pilots treat the company.

The jury is still out on whether that experiment has been a success.

I sincerely hope they weather the current storm. As one of the greatest companies in the illustrious history of Western Australian aviation, they deserve to.

[Ref + 10]

Skippers Aviation has been an experiment in pilot/employer relationships.

Are you serious?? An experiment?? A 13 odd year experiment. That's one helluva long time to be running an experiment mate.

Some of the things you espouse make me wonder whether you are just one big wind up merchant...

[Monopole]

aircraft, get your hand off it mate. You are only making yourself look like a bigger and bigger fool :ugh::ugh:

We all know that there is nothing worse in this world then lining the pockets of a greedy, underworked pig of a pilot. I mean hell, who do they think they are :confused:. There are sooo many of them on this site that know absolutley nothing of what they talk about.

If it was more viable for skippers to park up aircraft, loose contracts or just close shop, as it was to pay the crew more then they would have. The chances are that the managers new for years that this was coming and had budgeted accordingly for it. For as long as it wasn't being asked for, great.

Some of the 'other similar' companies you speak of followed suit within days. I find it hard to believe that they all found the payrise unexpected and unaffordable.

[exmexican]

And all those female captains at Skippers! Misogynist Mick must be seething with impotent rage in his mouldy den of 1950's attitude. Whooohoo! Rock on gals!

[Shed Dog Tosser]

More SA Captains dropping in to the "other Operators" for a chat about jobs prospects, they have mentioned T&C's as their greatest issue, a fair pay without the strings.

How else can this madness end ?, will SW own some shineys new terminals and hangars to the north in the next 12 months, and a couple of dozens turbo props, highly probable, they already have most of SA's experienced staff on the payroll.

Seems like the cheapest and most effective way to neuter the competition.

[KRUSTY 34]

Dog,

You are absolutely right.

The operator(s) that lead the way with T&C's, (Real T&C's) not the underhanded crap we have seen so far, will save their business.

The others will be left to fight over what little remains!

[Maxweight]

Aircraft Said:[QUOTE]It is quite normal for a business to have to close down as a result of changed economic circumstances - it happens all the time (aviation or not). As aviation businesses usually run on razor thin profits it doesn't take much of a change to send them to the wall.

Well i think that most people would agree with this,but seeing as "economic conditions" have not changed there must be some other reason for the apparent demise of Skippers.

We are quite often seeing, on this forum, problems with Rex and Skippers but there does'nt appear to be the same amount of gripes for other operators! Just wondering if there are any thoughts as to why!
Maxweight:confused:

[aircraft]

Maxweight said:
Well i think that most people would agree with this,but seeing as "economic conditions" have not changed there must be some other reason for the apparent demise of Skippers.
The big change in the economic circumstances was the escalation of demand for pilots - this started about two years ago.

[Monopole]

The economic circumstance was that pilots T&Cs got left behind 2 years ago for the so called pilot demand.

A modest payrise 2 years ago (lets say somewhere between 10-20 thousand), would have kept a fair wack of the crew (some will always leave), and it would have still been cheaper then the expense of training. The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.

Some people would forego some of the pay increase for a little recognition and respect (something that is lost these days). A movie ticket or a bottle of wine is cheaper then a payrise and goes a long way to better moral. A sincere 'thankyou' for a last min roster change, going out of your way to make a situation easier ect is a cost to the company of nothing. Yep, that's correct respect is FREE.

I cant believe i've been suckered in :{:{:{

[Capn Bloggs]

Monopole, well said.

Aircraft, you really do have no idea. What are you doing posting on Prune?Aren't you due for your morning tea with Pass a Frozo?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Claiming :Misogynist Mick must be seething with impotent rage , sounds very much like someone trying to draw the attention away from their very own serious inadequacies.

Misogynism and paternalism are dead in this day and age.

I'm not getting what i want, he must be a misogynist. Have you stopped to consider the sum of your actions, the poor relationships held with your fellow employees/management as a reason for not progressing ?.

Burn't their Bra's in the 70's to become equal, not sure equal is good enough it would appear, is that the case ?.

[Icarus2001]

So are people getting hurt in the rush to sign these new AWA's?

[piston broke again]

Can't see it happening. I've heard of a few here and there signing them but on the whole, I'd say most haven't and will not sign it.

Ask for the bonus to put to into the AWA, ask for the payrise (and back pay) for the wage increase that everyone should have got in Dec 2006. Ask for a 28 day notice period, the same as every other employer in the country. Funnily enough, if you are made redundant and have been in the company a while, the notice the company has to give you is 28 days.

What's good for the goose...

[aircraft]

Monopole said:
A modest payrise 2 years ago (lets say somewhere between 10-20 thousand), would have kept a fair wack of the crew (some will always leave), and it would have still been cheaper then the expense of training. The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.I have to pick you up on a couple of things you said there.

Firstly, this "modest payrise" which would have "kept a fair wack of the crew". What is your definition of "kept"? Is it retained forever or something like stayed on until having completed 5 years service?

To cause somebody to want to stay forever, the pay rise would have to be way, way more than $20K - it would have to be at least $100K. For this reason, I suspect you mean something like the latter definition.

But would $20K be enough to inspire a person to pass up the offer of a job with Skywest, Jetstar or Virgin to remain on the clapped out old Conquest/Metro/Dash 8 for another few years? I don't think so.

I think not even $30K or $40K would be enough. The major concern, to such a person, if offered the opportunity to move up, would be that the opportunity may not still be there in a few years time - hence they would feel they have to take it now.

How about $50K or $60K? Well, maybe now some pilots will begin to think about not taking up the offer to move up. Not such a modest payrise any more - but could the company afford this? And how would the Flight Attendants, engineers and various others feel about the pilots getting a $50-60K pay rise?

As for:
The cost would have been passed on to the clients anyway.You're not the first to say this. Expressed in those words, it sounds so simple, but in reality, this is not so simple.

The clients you refer to would be the mining companies. You could not be referring to the RPT passengers, because for them, the fare increases would have to be at least $500 per ticket, and with that, almost all of them would choose instead to drive or take the bus.

But the arrangement with the mining companies are contracts, negotiated months or years earlier. Think you can just up the pilot wages then send invoices out to the mining companies to cover the cost? That would be like a painter, having reached an agreement with you on the price to paint your house, coming to you half way through the job and asking for an extra $500 because he wants to give himself and his assistant a pay rise.

I can believe the contracts allow for the passing on of fuel price and security surcharge increases, but not salary increases.

So, the only way to pass on salary increase costs is to: wait until the current contract expires, then when bidding to renew the contract, add in the extra costs.

But of course, you wouldn't try to pass on all the extra costs to the one contract. You would plan to plan to win/renew certain future contracts so the costs would then be divided up between those contracts.

But, what if, 1-2 years later, you haven't won/rewewed all the contracts you were banking on, but have awarded the pilots the not so modest pay rise?

[Ralph the Bong]

OK Aircraft, seeing that you have such formidable expertise here, how much of a pay incraese would solve Skipper's problems?

If a pay hike is out of order, what alternate strategy would you sugest?

[Dr_Clowneus]

Tried getting a painter lately? I think you will find he is making alot more then alot of us.:ok:

[XRlent100]

Aircraft,

WRONG, Just heard of a Braz Capt at Network who knocked back an F100 F/O slot at Alliance because he wasn't prepared to take the $20K a year pay cut. So already the pay rise has paid off for Network and retained a pilot.

Secondly, These Pilot's at Skippers and Network are probably doing about 800hrs per year. To give them a $20 grand pay rise is $25 per hour. The average return flight time in a Bras to the average mine site is say 5.0hrs. This equates to $125. Divide that by 60seats (30 each way) and you get a price increase of $2.08 per passenger. Not quite the $500 you talk about. Even to give the piss ant F/O the same pay rise is only $4.16 per passenger....NOT VERY MUCH IN MY BOOKS

Cheers

[Brasilian Bird]

will SW own some shineys new terminals and hangars to the north in the next 12 months

Don't think so! Rumour is, XR won't even consider cross-hiring Skippers aircraft- why would they want to OWN them?!

[BrazDriver]

Aircraft you are more wound up than a slinkey sunshine!

I wonder how the pilots at Skippers felt when the engineers got a big payrise??

Xr100, I agree with what you are saying, I know a few piston drivers on good $ that have turned down a turbine f/o position.

[pilotdude09]

Just a quick Q for the guys in the loop.

What are the chances of being picked up by Skippers doing either the WAAC CPL course and the ECU Aviation degree?

In a bit of a pickle and cant decide which is better to do? i know skippers dont pay the best but hey you get to fly in WA, with reasonbly good aircraft.

Cheers

[kair1234]

how bout you do some time in the :mad:ing bush then try for a job at SA like the rest of us did

[Ref + 10]

kair, I'd love to have you as a parent. I can just hear all the "back in my day..." ramblings spewing forth with the kid just looking up at you thinking "times have changed since then but I'll just wait for them to stop". I see that look in their eyes when I do the "back in..." stuff myself.

Times are changing and needing to go bush seems to be becoming less of a need. I did it and most of the people I know did too but less and less people now look at the Slingair's of the world as a necessesity anymore.

Not sure whether it's for better or worse, it's just evolution of the time.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Ref,

There is a lot to be said for the experience gained in the GA world, the "hands on" stick and rudder is only a very small part of that.

Have you flown with these cadet/copilot types ?, whilst most of them are great to work with, their inexperience stands out, their situational awareness is very low compared to a grubby charter pilot with similar TT, ability to adapt is probably one of the greatest concerns i have seen.

If there is an open cheque book on training these cadets, no problems, but as there are both time and fiscal limitations to what training that can be done, very very few are going to meet a command level of competence in this time.

There is not substitute for experience, period.

[Monopole]

There is not substitute for experience, period. Certainly not. But Kunnus, Broome or Darwain is not the be all to end all either. We have many good skippers that never spent a day in the bush in their lives.

What are the chances of being picked up by Skippers doing either the WAAC CPL course and the ECU Aviation degree?

In a bit of a pickle and cant decide which is better to do? i know skippers dont pay the best but hey you get to fly in WA, with reasonbly good aircraft.

. Mate have you actually been reading this thread :confused::confused::confused:

Aircraft, I not even going to respond to you. Whats the point anyway, you obviously know more then everyone else on this thread anyway. If you want us to take you seriously, do your self a favour and fill us all in on your credentials (other then the airport managment course at YPJT). Sitting around the bar on a Friday night with your boss telling you how cut throat it is in aviation and why he cant afford a payrise for you wont cut it either. (ah bugger. Sucked in again)

XRlent100

There roughly the figure I was told not that long ago by the GM (ex) at my work place.

[Capn Bloggs]

the bush
What's that? :}

[Richo]

Come on Blogsie

That was the stuff between the threshold of 11 and the gate at Duck hole.

You know it was the same colour as your old work clobber. If you tried real hard you could imagine it by looking at the shrubbery around the mess beer garden. It takes on a whole new meaning of course, if you only get to look at it from a max speed of 210kts, instead of that bieng your minimum speed.

richo

[Gooose]

Have you flown with these cadet/copilot types ?, whilst most of them are great to work with, their inexperience stands out, their situational awareness is very low compared to a grubby charter pilot


how bout you do some time in the :mad:ing bush then try for a job at SA like the rest of us did


Kair1234 - if u had any situational awareness you would have seen that pilotdude09 is currently residing in Karratha............grumpy old fart

[kair1234]

Kair1234 - if u had any situational awareness you would have seen that pilotdude09 is currently residing in Karratha............grumpy old fart

so i suppose just living in karratha and considering taking an aviation course means that they have done their time in the bush gaining invaluable experience flying charter :ugh:

[Gooose]

your right kair, but

whoz to say he wont go north after hes done the course then try for skippers.........

WAAC and ECU are completely separate from Skippers and have nothing to do with any form of cadet programs. most of ECU and WAAC guys do head up north. i called u grumpy coz u were so quick to form an opinion of the young chap :=

[piston broke again]

Any truth to the rumour about 2 show causes being issued by CASA Skippers?

[aircraft]

XRlent100 said:

... and you get a price increase of $2.08 per passenger. Not quite the $500 you talk about. Even to give the piss ant F/O the same pay rise is only $4.16 per passenger....NOT VERY MUCH IN MY BOOKS.

The $500 increase I referred to was applicable to the RPT passengers. I very much doubt that all Skippers pilots fly 800 hours per year on RPT, whilst Network do no RPT at all. However, for the purpose of this discussion, I will regard these circumstances as being correct.

Your $4.16 claim is most probably wrong, but that is not surprising given how simplistic your calculation is. Many posters to PPRUNE come up with similar calculations to justify large salary increases for pilots and they all use the same method as yours. The method is remarkable for its simplicity but also remarkable for how many other factors it manages to ignore!

For starters, to get a net $4.16 out of a ticket price hike, considering GST and other taxes and charges that are a percentage of the price, the price rise would have to be near on $10. But, the biggest flaw in your calculation is that it assumes 100% load factors before and after the price hike.

Do you think you can increase the ticket price by $10 and still get exactly the same number of passengers? On some flights, you will, but for those flights where you don't, the lost revenue that results from having sold 1 or 2 less tickets introduces a major descrepancy to your calculation.

It is an interesting exercise to examine the development and effects of this descrepancy so I will now do that.

Because a few less passengers will fly (due to them no longer being able to afford the ticket that is $10 more expensive), you need to go back and redo your calculation, but when you do, instead of $4.16, you come up with, say, $4.35.

But $4.35 implies, say, a $10.50 gross ticket price hike, but that in turn means you need to redo the calculation again because even more passengers won't now be buying the ticket. So you need to keep redoing and redoing the calculation, but each time, the price hike gets larger. After a while, it dawns on you that the hike is increasing towards infinity!

For this calculation to not "run away" towards infinity, the load factor after the hike must be no less than the load factor before. Is that possible in the real world? Yes, but only for hikes that are very very small (or the special case where load factors are 100% with demand so high that, even after the hike, the load factor stays at 100%).

So, the mechanics of this particular calculation method mean that price rises are impossible, unless they are very very small! But in the real world, we know that largish price rises are possible, so this means that this particular calculation method must be fatally flawed - it just doesn't work, in other words.

To do this calculation properly, you need to conduct it as a "modelling" exercise. Only that way could you estimate, reasonably accurately, how much of a hike is possible, and over which routes. Such an exercise would also show where price decreases would ultimately result in increased revenue.

[Wizofoz]

Only that way could you estimate, reasonably accurately, how much of a hike is possible, and over which routes. Such an exercise would also show where price decreases would ultimately result in increased revenue.

Yes, but it shows your $500 was a load of old codswallop.