Euromanx- 2

[OE-HBB]

Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...181366&page=16


Fred...better have a word with you man on the rock as his time line may be out.

Can confirm that the -200 is having an engine change following an internal defect and a spare EuroManx Engine is being fitted - no drama. (This week).
Replacement aircraft this mid week were scarce due to the Euro football charters. So a mix of regular back up Air Atantique and Cirrus.

- I was on one of the LPL 737 flights and was told that it had been brought in to clear the back log of passengers building up due to the low vis at LPL. (Last week)

- ATR damaged by ground handling vehicle - replacement aircraft brought in. (Two weeks ago).

EM Ops seem to be doing a great job........:D

Thanks, yes they are, i'll let them know.

Hansol, that's it exactly, you're way off on your analysis there....
better luck next time.

Thanks to the BA boys for the hangar... :ok:

Fred... this is the airline industry, we all have days where things go bonkers and because a 737 is on the ramp you assume its all gone wrong:=

BA had one in a week or so ago, does that mean they up the swanny... nope.. just managing the programme as best as they can getting passengers from a to b... after all that the name of the game isnt it???

BB

[Hansol]

BB think your analysis is wrong. The name of the game is to run an efficent airline with good punctuality and service and to make a profit. Clearing the backlog is very important, even better not to make the backlog in the first place. I wasn't critizing EM's response to the problem which is always robust, I was merely stating that the -200 was not the aircraft of choice for a LPL-IOM sector.

[OE-HBB]

No i stand by my analysis. The core part of running an airline is still getting passengers from A to B.

However I agree with you 100% that to operate a "good" airline then you have to be able to operate they way you have mentioned in your previous post.


Note: The fore mentioned chartered aircraft was a 737-300.

The -200 that keeps being referred to i presume is the Dash -200

BB

[judge11]

Prediction - euromanx will do nothing because they are in no position to do anything - limited assets in a half baked company split between Fraggle and Austria. If flybe decide to move back onto Fraggle it will be curtains for the euros. There have been opportunities for euro to get into but they and their backers got cold feet - they've been too inactive for too long. Just a prediction, though.

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Your right in a way, they have been 'quite' so to speak.

I think EuroManx are building up for something, not too sure what and I wouldn't like to guess, but pax loads have been good, and the only real operational problem has been the aircraft probs with BB and having to lease in a shiny (ok maybe not so shiny :}) replacement.

Just my view, I personally think somethings on the way!

Could of course be wrong though!!

RR

[fredtheanorak]

Now FlyBes' plans are clear it seems that EuroManx will have to replaice their fleet PDQ or be stranded:hmm: . Theyr old Dash8's can't touch the Q400:bored: for op. costs or pax apeal so unless they move FlyBe will kill them on MAN. Given the club 328 conection I asume it'll be 328's plus one ATR 72?:cool: . Still not shure I'd want to be in their shoes rite now:{

[Jinkster]

Any heads up out there on 3w's pilot recruitment.....?

:hmm:

[Fried_Chicken]

With the FlyBE/BACON take over, what will happen to the Sunair Billund route which is operated as a code-share with BA. Will this be the only BA coloured aircraft we'll be likely to see at Brum? They had planned to add a morning rotation I believe next year so hopefully it'll be kept.

I presume Eastern, SN Brussels & Sunair (if the latter stays) will need to find new handling agents as I think they're all currently handled by BA

Fried Chicken

[ein klien person]

I think that there ist much happenig at Euromanx that not every person knows. Company moves up finanicially always and future plans happen day on day. I think that Euromanx knows many more things than it's critics do!

[Grand yahoo]

Why would Euromanx get rid of two 5-6 year old Dash 8s 37 / 50 seats and replace then with more expensve to operate Dornier 328s 30 seats.
The recent IOM airport stats show Euromanx doing better on Manchester even against Bacons latest cheap fares.
A shiny new Dash 8 400 78 seats does out perform a Dash 8 300 and a 146 / RJ but a Dash 8 400 on 5 returns a day to Manchester is 780 seats against Bacons 500 a lot of extra seats to fill.
With the ATC issues from IOM MAN IOM the speed of the aircraft does not really make a difference.
A Dash 8 400 costs about $16m and it needs paying for, soo full flights and high yield will be required.

Dash 8 400 will be an ideal aircraft for LGW.

[Anotherflapoperator]

I disagree it will be ideal for the LGW run. The only reason the figures show lower pax numbers this last year is the artificial limitation of capacity on that route by the dog of an aircraft placed there after Bacon let their -200 go. The route is often full on peak days and times and the crews and ground staff have struggled with this for a while.

A temporary fix of one of Flybe's 146-200 should show them if the route can grow again to justify one of the EMB195s instead. The Q400 will lose out on the business travellers who choose the 146 out of snob appeal simnply because it's a jet, and trust me there's a lot out there who do!

I believe they are coming over next week to say hello and talk to the crews, so I'll ask my contact to let me know what they say.

[Haven't a clue]

The Q400 will lose out on the business travellers who choose the 146 out of snob appeal simnply because it's a jet, and trust me there's a lot out there who do!

Lose out to what? If there's no jet going to London, then it will be a question of whose service is better. The jet was generally higher and smoother. And seems faster...

My Exec Club membership always helped make BA the first choice. What clinched it was the friendliness and professionalism of the crews, and yes, I got p****d off with the rubbishy -100 imposed on us after BACX management dumped G-MIMA (in error I suspect they now realise) but the crews always made it bearable.

I for one am not looking forward to a regime which wants £x for baggage or £y for a nominated seat. I've used BACon and before that Manx and before that British Midland (ahh...Viscounts...) and what I see is what I pay is what I get. FlyBe's Loco model is not what I want.

I've used EuroManx to LCY several times and am happy to use them (or indeed VLM) in future. So I think both will benefit.

BA will be a loser though. For my not inconsiderable long haul spend may just as well go to Virgin (and their limo's run from/to LCY...).

[Idaho Springs]

I have also used VLM and Euromanx and have been very satisfied with both. BA have never been very satisfactory and I no longer use them. I've always had a very good experience flying with VLM and Euromanx and both have consistently offered a great service. Euromanx have the flriendliest and most professional crews and they are by far more punctual than any other Isle of Man operator but Vlm have been quite good too and although they seem to carry very few passengers, they do try hard to please.
My colleagues and I use the Isle of man to London routes frequently and we're interested to see how things develop and who will ultimately take the lead and offer what we all need on this route.

[fredtheanorak]

I disagree it will be ideal for the LGW run. The only reason the figures show lower pax numbers this last year is the artificial limitation of capacity on that route by the dog of an aircraft placed there after Bacon let their -200 go. The route is often full on peak days and times and the crews and ground staff have struggled with this for a while.

A temporary fix of one of Flybe's 146-200 should show them if the route can grow again to justify one of the EMB195s instead. The Q400 will lose out on the business travellers who choose the 146 out of snob appeal simnply because it's a jet, and trust me there's a lot out there who do!

I believe they are coming over next week to say hello and talk to the crews, so I'll ask my contact to let me know what they say.

My man on the rock tells me there's been a real surge of activitie on Fraggle with Jim Frenchof FlyBe and the boss of Eastern all visiting last week. :ok: Apparently a dis-orderly Q is being formed by them both to see who can be first to start a LPL and depryve EuroM of theyre monoploly:{

[Tinwald]

Don't believe it, Fred fella. Both could have had a go on the Liverpool route already. Flybe- no money it for them - Eastern - nobody could afford the fares. And Manx2 are starting to show a degree of desperation with this new Belfast run - looking for things to do. Things achanging here, no doubt about it, but until this BA affair is sorted, the routes and the hangar, and flybe show their hand, its all sitting and speculating.
Spare a thought for the folks in engineering here who really do need a knight in shining armour to appear and save if not all but maybe some of there jobs. Lots of political fallout still to come from that, I daresay - yessir.

[EI-BUD]

Will this be the only BA coloured aircraft we'll be likely to see at Brum?
Re what Fried Chicken said...

I think BA will still keep on the BRU BHX route, in fact the BRU routes are all being maintained, for eg BRS , BHX, MAN & NCL to BRU! Obviously some deal done with government or simply good fare opportunity.

Its very sad to see BA disappear from the regional airports , I for one will miss them....:uhoh:

[SWBKCB]

Will this be the only BA coloured aircraft we'll be likely to see at Brum?
Re what Fried Chicken said...
I think BA will still keep on the BRU BHX route, in fact the BRU routes are all being maintained, for eg BRS , BHX, MAN & NCL to BRU! Obviously some deal done with government or simply good fare opportunity.

NCL/BRU is a code-share with SN Brussels, possibly the same for the others?

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Yes The BRU ex MAN is a code share as are quite a number of other routes i:e
HEL and DXB which one presume will continue

G-I-B

[Tinwald]

Fellas - relevance to Euromanx or Isle of Man:confused:

[fredtheanorak]

Interesting times ahead for every one at ronaldsway i think! Rumour has it that there will be 3 Q-400 operated by flybe. LGW, MAN,BHX. Flight support still have another 18 months to run on the flybe contract which could prove interesting come march 2007 when manx regional will only have a handful of aircraft to handle!

with flybe's continued expansion from Brum, it would make perfect sense to base the BHX aircraft here on the rock! They should fill most seats on all the routes they will be doing especially if the flights are reliable and seats are priced accordingly!

Flybe already do 5 BHD-MAN a day and BHD LPL so back to 2 operators on IOM LPL in a fight to the finish?:{

Meanwhile rumors of Euros joining the BLK debacle:mad: . If theres any truth in this shows John Seymore's really lost the plot and scrapping around at the dog:mad: end of the market becase he's petrifiyed that FlyBe are going to desimate him and canx the FS contract as well:E

[San Expiry]

Look Fred. Flybe deserted the Rock nearly 2 years ago and if they had wanted to come back and take it over they could have done so at any time. Their return is only by default due to the BA take over. So whether or not the IOM fits in with their overall plans, who knows, but you can be pretty sure that if it doesn't then they'll be off. There are a lot of far more lucrative markets and routes around.

But.........Euromanx has got to be vulnerable if flybe was to move in. It's been too inactive and appears to be running on inertia. As GMIMA and Tinwald have said, it's going to be interesting for 'Rock' watchers over the next six to nine months and who knows what surprises are in store. Blackpool, though, is third division stuff and surely best left to the minnows - which could include the Euros, I suppose.

And what about Eastern?

[GMIMA]

What the IOM needs is some sort of commitment from one of the airlines.......I know in the past i have slatted Euro Manx, however, they are the only airline who seems to be promoting the IOM and they are becoming stable at last

It would be nice to see the IOM Government get involved and give them some help like the old MANX AIRLINES. When manx airlines was set up in Nov 1982, the IOM Gov waivred land fees and additional costs and help manx borrow money for reinvestment Etc.

If flybe put 3 Dash 8s on the IOM ie, LGW, MAN, BHX i cant see eastern competing on the IOM BHX route for one who can compete with £80 return!

HOPE ALL THE LADS AND GIRLS IN THE HANGER AT IOM GET SORTED SOON WITH JOBS ETC

[Tinwald]

Yessir, that littel t***pot from Oxford is going to have another go from the island of aviation dreamers. Take a look at the thread Alpha One. 10/10 for persistance, 0/10 for any crediblity here on the rock. Can't people like him be put down - somewhere? Course, believe it when it happens. Yessir.

[sqanze]

the numpty from oxford still owes a small fortune from last two abort take offs from oxford and IOM.:=
CLOWN AIRWAYS will do!!!!:rolleyes:

[TimS]

G-MIMA, I can assure you that while the Manx Government gave the 'old MANX AIRLINES' absolute support at the time it was set up and in subsequent years - in particular Tom Corlett (Airport Director), 'Jack' Nivison (neither of these gentlemen are still with us, but their contibution and friendship was both very much appreciated and highly valued) and the rest of the Airport Board they were not involved in the airline's financing and standard landing fees etc were paid until the Farecracker initiative was launched (on which there was a concession negotiated at the airline's initiative) to the resulting benefit of the airport, airline and travelling public (the first UK loco operation ?)

[Tinwald]

Yessir, flash in the pan. The thread on Alpha One has disappeared already. Yessir!

[Anotherflapoperator]

It's just a shame that the IOM Govt. didn't do a thing to help or protect Manx when the owners floated it and got their 20 years worth of investment in time and effort turned into cash.

The one thing that's stayed constant is that the crews that flew the LHR route, are the same crews that fly the BACON 146-100 to LGW and they'll be the same crews that fly the Flybe 146 to LGW after the dust settles.

A very recent rumour is that the BACON Dash8Q300 will be replaced in the new year with an Embraer 145. This will stay until a Q400 arrives sometime in the future, but the likelihood will be a 146 and an Emb145 in Flybe colours for most of next year, handled by Manx Regional and operating the schedule as it is now. Not confirmed, but there is strong belief that all the BACON Dash8 Q300 will be disposed of ASAP as the crews can be retrained quickly onto the Q400.

So, same faces and same service. The big difference is that he same crews have faced uncertainty, worry, the friends and colleagues around them looking at redundency and having to swap uniform and badges more times in 4 years than they can remember. It's a miracle they still smile at all.

The question is will Euromanx ever become an Island company? It definitely looks Austrian to me. Not exactly home grown. Flybe has strong presence in Guernsey, Jersey and in Belfast. I think they are well aware of how to serve Islands well. They left 2 years ago because the LCY route only warrants small aircraft like the 35 seater mostly, and they were beginning to rationalise the fleet and move to the Q400, something that is not suited to IOM-LCY.

Charging for baggage is not my idea of warm old fashioned service, but it rationalises the costs as they are charged for baggage handling and the costs are transferred appropriately. For day return Business travel, that's surely fairer?

I still don't think the LGW route will go to a Q400, because the holds are not able to cope with the freight and courier which is both lucrative and takes virtually half the -100's holds as it is.

[Tinwald]

Hey fella! if you're after a job in BA's PR department you've missed the boat. And whatever you're on, keep taking it 'cos you'll have helluvva shock when you wake up from your dream and smell that there coffee. Yessir:ok:

[fredtheanorak]

Tinwald

Hey Tinny, just one flaw here old chap, on FlyMaybe you dont often get to smell the :( coffee atall as at £2 a cup no one much buys it! nooossir!:{

[RE72]

As this route is seizing operations early january,

It seems that Manx2 could have kept the daily service IOM - STN.

[Tinwald]

Fred - free coffee with the Redtails. The Irish mob has done no good to the Island's air services since thay came on the scene - s......ed things right royally, they have. Yessir!

[fredtheanorak]

Tinwald

Agree with that Tinny, the sooner they return to Dublin the better for everyone on FrazzleRock. Presume the pending arrival of FlyMayBe on LGW and MAN has got everyone in a twitch and re-aligning in advanse of March. Any sign yet of there final plans for the MAN timetable? I'd heard 146 on LGW with EMB145 initially on Man while BA baby dash crews retrain onto Dash8Q400s which will then go onto 4x rotations MAN, 3x LPL, 2x BHX and single daily BHD?

[Tinwald]

Well Fred, there's lots of rumours circling the Rock at present and yours seem to be the same as that fella flapoperator's. Meself, can't see it. Them there big Dash's can't be economic to run on tiddly runs like Liverpool and Belfast and Manchester. Can't be any money in them compared to when you take a look at the big routes flybe go to. If it did happen though them Redtails had better watch out, yessir!

[Hansol]

Them Q400's might be big but they are cheaper to operate per passenger then Euro's 2 and 300's. I think they would go well on LPL.

[fredtheanorak]

Hansol

Liverpool was always a 200k plus roote :rolleyes: . Thats' over 600 a day pax. Not bad even for a Q400:) - would need min 4 rotations a day just to keep up.:D

[fredtheanorak]

My spys :suspect: on Frazzle Rock tell me that FlyMaybe will be installing a 146 for LGW and Emb 145 to do MAN as they can then take on local engineering support as BAcon engineering look after these two planes on the rock but not the Q400. Aparentley decision on second 145 for LPL is still pending:confused: . All to happen in March supposedley. ?;)

[chrism20]

fredtheanorak

Is it not a 146 that does IOM-LGW just now anyway?

[JDB1052]

fredtheanorak

The BE plan linked from another thread shows a 145 and 146 based in IOM but c'mon Fred, do you really see a 145 being able to compete with a 70 seat ATR72 on Liverpool, where the flight times will be very similar? A 145 on Birmingham would be interesting for you though :) That said, wouldn't it be really interesting if BE made a pitch for Euromanx and became the Rock's Favourite (and maybe only) Airline?

[Tinwald]

Fred fella. Yoove been working overtime, you and your spies. Them there Redtails must be quakin in their jackboots if your spies are on the ball - yessir!

[fredtheanorak]

JDB1052

It would seem the 145/146 info was corect then? Can you atatch the link pls?:rolleyes:
I guess the jet on LPL theory is for 2 reasons.:ooh: Some people would pay more to fly on a jet than an ATR :D and if you want to become the rock's favourite airline all you'd need to do is hit them red tails very hard on LPL and MAN.:ok: It seems that Club328 is retrencshing as well so maybe Euro's parent companiy:( :( is losing its enthuseyasm for aviation?:{

[Man_User]

*Cough* Euromanx thread not flybe, come on guys/gals.

[Tinwald]

Manny, fella. euromanx thread it may be but with all these here things happening on the Rock, the redatails and flybes fortunes must be inextrickibly tied in, yessir.

[Man_User]

I guess this should be a ronald'sway airport thread then.....not euromanx.

I understand euromanx are going to have a hard time, but i can see flybe messing it up with taking to many routes on.

Euromanx will plod on, done fine againest BA, there only replacing them to manchester, not to sure about the other routes though.

[fredtheanorak]

Seams like Euromonkeys are going to step up there MAN schedule to 4x daliy from Feb ;) to try and grab a bigger share of the market before flymaybe come along :{ (assuming they do actualy come and not walk away from the deal). Seems a sensibul move to me. :D Stuff the red tails into Man while BACon :yuk: are definitley NOT the islands' favorite airline!:D

[Hansol]

Doesn't seem that sensible to me, why would they think inreasing frequency now would change anything, if the market was there they could have done this at anytime. Its a gamble, if Flybe put on a quality service all bets will be off.

[fredtheanorak]

I presum the red tails see a window of oportunitie while BACon are focused on all sorts of other problems between now and March.:confused: The IOM guys ive spoken with resently all say the BA name is not loved at all on the island now as they are being deserted and the big engineering base there clossed.:{ Lots of realy good long serving enginers could be out of a job in 2007. I think Euros will try and capitalyse on this anti BA sentiment in 2007 and add more capacity.:ok: :ok: Much beter for Euros to move now rather than wate for FlyMaybe to come along with their 145 jet in April:D

[Haven't a clue]

The really brave move would be to bring back one of the RJ85s and send it down to LGW (and on to JER?)? That would probably garner a good level of local support, but I guess that slots would be a challenge.

[GCIJ32]

The really brave move would be to bring back one of the RJ85s and send it down to LGW (and on to JER?)? That would probably garner a good level of local support, but I guess that slots would be a challenge.

BlueIslands already operates a daily triangular service between GCI/JER and the IOM in a Jetstream. I doubt Euromanx could support such a limited route in an RJ!!

[Tinwald]

Fellas. That there RJ idea calls for big cajones from the Redtails and all they've bin doing in recent tmes is shrinking in the cold. There must be some English airline already flying down to the channel islands from Gatwick anyhow. Lots of folk here on Fraggle thought those fancy jets could have done lots of things if the Redtails had the cajones - see, all comes down to cajones and, like I've said, they dont look too big, nossir!:=

[Airnuts]

..My Exec Club membership always helped make BA the first choice.....am not looking forward to a regime which wants £x for baggage or £y for a nominated seat. I've used BACon and before that Manx and before that British Midland (ahh...Viscounts...) and what I see is what I pay is what I get. FlyBe's Loco model is not what I want.
What on earth has the Exec Club got to do with flying? I've been member of the BAExec club for years and years but I only fly with BA (in whatever form) if the price is right. No ego boost for being a member matey!
Just back from TFN (euro 0.01 each way from DUB or £25 rtn incl.). Yes Ryanair charged euro 9 per checked hold bag and only allowed 15kgs total (checked and hand baggage) ...
and yes one woman who though she had to buy up half of Tenerife for Xmas (even though they aren't customs union) and had to leave 6kgs of her baggage at TFN, went raving bonkers.
You CAN't pay for the excess anymore but any normal person doesn't NEED more than 15kgs
I know a couple from NZ that never had a winter in 25yrs (3 to 4 mths in the other hemisphere) who travelled with rolly cabin baggage only. Yes for up to 4mths stay. Drip dry and not more than 3 of each was their rule and they did not believe they were going to be invited by a King or Queen and left the fancy stuff at home. They stopped now as he is 86 and she 81.
In my AirNews reports, the incidents always seemed to be the large companies (didn't the Blair's BA machine overshoot the Florida runway just yesterday?) . Question is: Do you want to get there safely or impress the Jones's? There just isn't such a thing as a 4x4 Mercedes.
I fly very often and, I must say that the only airlines that ever made me a refund were Ryanair (£29) for a broken baggage lock and AerArann in Dublin who kindly refunded half of the IOM-DUB that checked us in but didn't take off due to gales on 12th Dec
I must also praise EuroManx GmbH who got us to Belfast the same day quickly for about £28 single. We never got to asking Manx2 but they would have done too.
Sadly, FlyZoom are still around £100 each way to/from Canada but recent tests showed that the "taxes and fees" were more than the flight cost. They are also a budget airline with lots of leg room - absolutely no reason to pay the £70 extra for upgrading. Save the money and have a fling in Canada or Northern USA
Regarding the discussions on EuroManx (including the idea to make it the Manx "national airline"):
a) If you book then you book with EuroManx GmbH - an Austrian company
b) If you fly then you probably fly with Irish, German, Swiss and sometimes a G- is on the tailfin.
c) OK so our Austrians are flying Irish aircraft with the EuroPranx livery - but look at the notice on the front door - "the stuff is wet or dry leased from AerArann"
Soooooooooo the planes don't belong to the airline and the airline is Austrian and the only thing Manx is the booking office at Ronaldsway (unless THAT moved to a telephone centre in India or someplace in the meanwhile)
I like flying with them when the price is right and their PAXload seems to be OK but Manx? Nosiree, they definitely do not belong to "themselves".
Cheers and happy days
Airnuts
"We never left anyone up there"

[TechProblem]

Airnuts, lovely post there about baggage :) and also check Flyglobespan's website for trips to canada.

Euromanx though, may have austrain reged a/c and are maintained by Austrain's/German's, but english pilots fly them and yes the call centre is based just outside ronaldsway, with the whole of the euromanx operation.

Ok they have leased an a/c from aer arann, but who doesnt lease a/c these days, unless you have a bottomless pit of cash that is :)

O, just wondering, if emx are doing a 4th flight to man during the summer, is another route getting cut off, or is another a/c on the horizon?

[Island Jockey]

Airnuts.
As you have a news site perhaps some facts may be helpful,

If you check back through the threads and speak to Euromanx staff on the IOM - here are a few facts.

Euromanx GmbH operates the 2 Dash 8s based on IOM with Euromanx flight crew and cabin staff. Euromanx GmbH if you check out European AOC holders, has a world wide unrestricted Air Operators Certificate.

EuroManx Ltd is a registered Compnay on the Isle of Man

The Aer Arann ATR 72 is on a sole lease to Euromanx and operates with Euromanx cabin staff some 70 rotations a week to LPL and it is based on IOM.

When these aircraft are on planned or unplanned maintenance Euromanx like any other operator brings in a third party wet lease to cover the schedules.

Euromanx offices including reservations is on the Isle of Man (Ex Blue Diamax building with the Big free carpark for their Gold members) and altogether EM employs about 90 staff all on the IOM.

All Euromanx Flights plus others are handled by Flight Support, a sister company also based in the Isle of Man employing more than 50 + people as well as staff at MAN & LPL.

Last month Euromanx had increased their share of the IOM market:

http://www.iom-airport.com/lib/docs/airport/paxfigsmonthlynov2006ver2.pdf

"The percentage of total passengers carried by each airline has changed
again, to become; Euromanx 38.7%; BA Connect 29.2%; Aer Arann 7.3%;
Manx2 6.6%; Eastern 6.6%; Flybe 3.5%; Loganair (BA) 3.2%; VLM 1.2%;
British NorthWest 0.9%; Blue Islands 0.8%; and charters 2.0%."

Call them names etc etc but they are operating a prety good schedule, not charging for bags, giving complimentary refreshments and in the last 12 months have delivered a consistant service.


-------------------

[Tinwald]

Jockey fella. That there Airnut fella has some fair points and the manxies'll never see the Redtails as real manx with them foreign pilots who you can't understand when you get on the airplane (if theysay anything anyway) and why is a Austrian company flying airplane's from Fraggle anyway. Why can't you get British ones. National airlines should be national and not a mix and match so you'll have to do better Jockey fella, yessir.

[lfc84]

who gives a toss whether its manx, british, austrian or whatever........

what difference does it make ?

most people just choose the lowest price

[captainyonder]

Euromanx pilots are mainly British Tinwald. The airline have been providing a fine service to the island for the last 18 months and as they have a European AOC I have no problem with them.

[Tinwald]

You're right there about the fares. The lowest usually wins and the Redtails are as good as any with the fares. But the locals can't see a national airline which is what the redtail boss wants it to be when half of it ain't even Manx. You wouldnt see an Irish airline claiming to be Sweden's national airline now, would you, captain. Nossir! Get the feeling your yonder over there and not here, too.

[Mushton]

Airnuts and Tinwald:

As Island Jockey already mentioned EMX is more "Manx" than you two would like to believe.
As an ex-employee I can confirm that all their cabin crew (even the ones on the wetleased Aerann ATR are IOMfolk (give or take a few imported ones). All pilots are IOM-based and most are English (there aren't enough pilots on the island to fill the roster :) ).
You are however correct in saying that it's an austrian reg on both HBB and HBC. Their Flight Ops director is austrian, head of training is Swiss, Chief Pilot is British and as mentioned most pilots are British.
All other staff on the ground are "Rock-folk".
It actually goes to show that they really are "euro"+manx....

Cheers...

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Tinny! Hey fella, good christmas?
Come on....gotta admit they're getting more manx by the month. All the ladies and gents over at EM House are pretty much locals, a lot of the flight crew are british, cabin crew-saders (;)) are the majority manx / locals as mentioned.
From the paying publics point of view, the staff are manx, the crew are manx, the flash-8's :p have a manx tail (despite the OE- regs), the registered office is on the Island, the customers fly to/from the IOM.....they're a manx airline!
Of course it goes deeper than that but I'm trying to avoid bringing it up so I'll stop typing now. :}
Tara!!
RR

[Hansol]

I'd go as far as to say that Euromanx is the closest thing to a national airline this Island has ever had, and in that I include Manx. Tin hats on wait for the incoming !!!

[lfc84]

:mad: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

who cares ?

:ok:

[euromanxdude]

For those who are interested quite a marjority of 3W workforce are either MANX born and bred with classic MANX surnames[myslf included], have either lived here a number of decades or once worked for JE/TH.... Just becuse you carnt see them or hear them dosent mean there's no manxies!
Secondly - So what if we have foreign crews - it just reflects the changing times as the ever increasing influx of other nationalities to the rock is huge and us manxies are a ethnic minority these days - and these girls and boys are just as good as their manx/brit counterparts. So for those who carnt think of anything else better to do chck your facts - there is more manx to euromanx than ya think;)

[GMIMA]

Who cares if the people for Euro/eastern/ba are swiss,french,german,swed its an open market now in the EU.

People moaning about euromanxs aoc is austrian, who cares, at least they have one, unlike manx2. Over the last year they have improved some what, running to time and being some what reliable.

Other people clam that the money made doesnt stay on the IOM with Euro manx................so what...............niether does easterns (uk based) neither ba or any other airline I can think off, except for the people who live on the iom. at least euromanx adveretise the IOM!!!!

The IOM needs stability with its air routes, the IOM Gov should have taken Manx Airlines offer of the LHR route, but the half wits who try and run the fraggle rock, couldnt see as far as the end of there noses............what a shame.

Interesting times ahead for the rock

[lfc84]

Does anyone else here find the photo of Mr Seymour in the front of the in flight magazine somewhat disturbing. He appears to have a rather menacing stare.........:ooh:

and what is he staring at........:ok:

[manx crab]

When did the Isle of Man join the EU :confused:

The only interest in the Austrian AOC is why they could not/would not get a UK AOC. Since the fiasco of early 2005 they have improved out of all recognition but how sustainable in the long term is a 2 aircraft fleet.

Still now we have a new Airport Director and Minister of Transport, things are bound to improve:E

[lfc84]

http://www.dca.gov.uk/constitution/crown/crwdep-int-issues-reu.htm

[fredtheanorak]

Red 17

No it was a Dornier 328-110 D CPRW
Check out www.aaib.gov.uk (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/) 10/2006

TINWALD
Yesterdays News? You surprise me...............
By passing it off like that, they nearly put the aircraft down in Heald Green!
If it was of no coincedence why did ATC report it to the CAA and that the AAIB thought it was worthy of a 12 page report! + the other incident at Ronaldsway.
They should not be operating in the UK by piggy backing on the back of some one elses AOC.

As I stated you get what you pay for!! You want to pay £2 for a ticket fine, I would rather be flying on a G reg A/C that has had to train and test pilots to UK standards.
Emerald screwed up their training files and other associated parts and hence lost their AOC and went out of business....... :rolleyes:

I think the point here is that the incident you refer to related to Euromanx and not to Manx2, so it is not appropriate to discuss it on the manx2 thread - as this implies it was a problem with Manx2.

Also, neither Euromanx or Manx2, to my knowledge use British crews. However, as all crews in Europe are all trained and adhere to Jar-Ops I do not see the problem.

[captainyonder]

Both airlines have British crews as well as European crews trained to the same standard!

[fredtheanorak]

This is the corect link to both AIB reportes.:\

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/october_2006.cfm

[granddaddy]

Rumour is that 3W bringing back their RJ's,announcement due next week.

Possible they are needed to counter possible competition from Flybe!!

My previous post on this mysteriously removed !!!!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[skiddyiom]

Hmmmm, news to me Granddaddy, but I'll ask my mole if he has any info! :E

skiddy

[manx crab]

Does this mean Paris and Galway are back on the agenda:eek:

[euromanxdude]

hello chap's, im afraid its all pure fantasy about the rj rumour, sorry to rain on your parade.
regards
the dude:cool:

[granddaddy]

Know anything about next weeks announcement,if it is not about the RJ's???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[manx crab]

Well two I have heard are :-

1. Aer Arann taking over Euromanx.
2. Flybe giving Manchester to Euromanx, probably because they will not have any pilots etc left:sad:

[granddaddy]

I have also heard the Manchester rumour.Plus possibility of only short term commitment to the Island by Flybe with handover to 3W.Which is where the RJ's come into the picture

[fredtheanorak]

red 17 -
Any chance of an IOM - MAN service with T3. The potential is there, a large amount of the flights by BACON on this route are business pax. There was talk that if BACON pulled off this route T3 would move in. Ok the route will still exist under BE but it would be good to see someone stand up to euromanx (3w) because if BE decide that IOM isn't for them then 3w will be able to do what they like.

word is that Euromanx and FlyBE have come up with a dirty deal where FlyBe pass MAN to 3W so long as 3W keep off LGW, LTN and STN . Plan then is that 3W have NW monopoley and jackup fares and raise LCY fares so BE have all other LON traffic to themselfes into LGW and prices go up faster than a Twin Otter on steroyds.. lets hope T3 have a j41 on standby or you guys on Fraggle Rock will get scr*wed:( I tried to fly to IOM ex LPL last weeek with Euromanx . £104 single!

[Haven't a clue]

This is what happens without competition on a route:


LGW to JER out 14 Mar back 16 Mar
FlyBe Economy Plus (flexible, but no refunds) £330.28:D
BA Economy (flexible, refundable) £337.00:D

IOM to LGW same dates
BA Connect Economy (flexible, refundable) £364.20:D

IOM to LCY same dates
EuroManx (flexible, refundable) £422.00:uhoh:

I dread what may happen if EMX and BE reach a deal as you suggest. It would have been nice to know that a regulator was keeping an eye on this, wouldn't it?

[Tinwald]

You fellas from away from the Rock have got more skeat than us here. Where are you getting all this juicy stuff from over there. Ther's too much money to be made on that Gatwick run for it to be given up by anyone but me and the fellas are gettin gworried for all the BA people on the Rock now, engineers and the pilots and hosties 'cos we reckon flybe will be flybenights- tee hee!:yuk:

[mmeteesside]

Sounds like Manx2 will be in for a good time soon then

[fredtheanorak]

.........and if you think those fares was bad, try MAN or LPL for travel anytime within 2 days of departure. LPL is £218 return (yes, LPL which last yr was £68 return) and MAN is £242

Come back Emerald....almost all is forgiven

Makes even T3 look like a locost airline.

[part69]

Fred/clue
See you have a problems with EM
Have you thought that maybe the dates you requested are close to full?
Nothing wrong with industry standard to do that. Eastern normally start with that kind of price anyway.
Also considered the fact that Emerald did not last? maybe because the pricing they were offering was unsustainable.

Just wait till next wednesday everyone, then we will know for definate the Euromanx/flybe plan.

[Hansol]

EM and Flybe or EM and Arann or EM and Emerald can cut as many dirty deals as they want, but there is nothing to stop yet another operator popping up if the prices get silly.

[Tinwald]

Hansol, fella, trust you to turn up and have another dig at the redtails. You must have a chip on yer shoulder the size of chicken rock. Rumours reaching fever pitch here on the Rock. Phew, the sweat is dripping off me and the fellas. Off to the snug for a pint of Okells.:ok:

[Hansol]

Hi Tinwald it wasn't meant as a dig, just and observation as to how the aviation biz on the rock is unofficially being carved up. Any news on this announcement ?

[Persimmon]

Also, don't forget that there's no seacat service from IOM to Liverpool since that unfortunate event in the Mersey a couple of weeks ago. A day trip to Liverpool now involves an almost 24 hour round trip via Heysham.
No wonder its bend over time again

[EMX81L]

Regarding the announcement (hello by the way ppl), Euromanx are waiting to see what happens when/if the Flybe / BACon deal goes through before the announcement is made.

But as ppl have said on here, there are lots of stories going round, but some ppl are sayin the same thing. Who knows what will happen, but its all gonna happen in the next few weeks..... unless Flybe but another delay on the deal

[GMANX]

very true sir, it is very much a case of wait and see. Everyone is currently speculating and only time will tell. I have heard however that at least 1 new route is on the cards for the redtails. Also a new plane/s

[RE72]

Anyone think theres any likelihood of RE purchasing EMX, i heard that rumour before around a year ago.

It would seem a good partnership, with EMX already actively using a ATR72 on its IOM-LPL route, this would allow both airlines see the feasibility of operating such an aircraft on the route, and RE already serving DUB - IOM, of course, The RE name may somewhat be damagen on the Isle

[EMX81L]

Very slim would be my answer RE72.

The lease contract for REJ from RE was for 18 months, which comes to an end in September this yr. From what ive heard, and i'm not the only one, EMX are goin to be looking for a replacement in the form of a Q400.

RE came and gone, couldnt compete on the LPL. They became the 3rd operator on the MAN, and that failed. LTN went very quiet and that stopped in january. Just DUB left.

EMX are goin to make moves for the good this yr, under the name of Euromanx and not Aer Arann :ok:

[GMANX]

that is exactly what i have heard as well EMX81L. Q400 on the horizon and at least 1 new route. However if you hear anything else keep me posted:D

[virginblue]

What's the point in operating a rather expensive (acquisition cost-wise) Q400 for the short hop between IOM and LPL ? Even a brand-new ATR72-500 is a couple of million pounds cheaper than a Q400, let alone a well-maintained used example ?

[EMX81L]

Euromanx want a standard fleet, hence the Q400, which allows for easy conversion from the 300 to the 400 series.

Heard aswell, that post Flybe / Bacon acquision there are goin to be 2 D8-300 available, so euromanx could take those on. Also heard however, all of the Bacon D8's have already been snapped up, but we shall see when it all levels out.

Fair comment Virginblue about the ATR, it is slightly more economical than the Q400, but i think with the extra seats, it would allow for extra capacity at peak times on he LPL, as for a time the 82 seat RJ's were being filled. Also, it may not be a brand new one, as there may be one available from another airline. :hmm:

[Tinwald]

under the name of Austrian Airways and not Aer Arann - sorry EMX81L fella, couldn't resist it.

But hey, lots of skeat from some newcomers who sound as if they know what there talking about. But the proof will be in the scoffing as my ganny used to say.

Whats this Q400 job a bigger one of the prop jobs the redtails run already. skiddy - youre the photo man I think, can you post us a piccy for those who haven't got there observers book of aircraft anymore.

Me and the fellas 'll chew this new stuff over in the snug tonight and let you know what we think.:ok:

[virginblue]

Thanks for enlighting me that the Q400 is a bigger version of the Q300 and the Q200....

The point I was making is that while it always nice to have a standardized fleet, a new Q400 is, if I remember correctly, more than 30% more expensive than an ATR72-500 if you look at the acquisition cost. Euromanx's route structure certainly does not call for the performance of the Q400 (where it has a clear advantage over the ATR), so it all comes down to fleet commonality (unless they are looking at a larger capacity aircraft also for the LCY route for which the ATR72 is not certified). Question therefore is how big is the gain you get from having 3 Dash 8 instead of 2 + 1 ATR - so that the hefty additional investment when acquiring a Q400 is justified ?

[MarkD]

Depends on what kind of deal BBD are offering these days - although I thought the Q400 line was a lot busier than it used to be. Maybe the head cheeses in Montreal want to catch ATR in sales?

The other nice thing about the Q400 is it can mate with jetways - I was very surprised to walk off a Porter Q400 at YOW via jetway a few months back. In Canadian winters that's a good asset!

[virginblue]

The ATR can do as well - depends on the jetway. I have boarded ATRs at TLL through a jetway, for example.

[Yak97]

I think these are aircraft with a forward pax door (G-HERM?). These should be cheaper to lease as they don't have a forward freight door (if my memory serves) and so are less useful for freight ops.

[EMX81L]

Tinwald here ya go, piccy of a Flybe Q400, one of their new ones http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5915466&nseq=18

78 seat config, nice big hold at the back, and a hold the size of a shoe box at the front! Flybe have alot of the production slots i believe, and have received a fair few in the past month or two.

Yak97 - You are correct with regards to REJ and HERM, they both have forward pax doors, and no forward freight door. They both have a small front hold on tother side

EMX do need a large seater aircraft for the LPL, and for other routes at peak times.

I have heard that more routes for EMX are very much possible, just waiting to see what happens with the Flybe / Bacon deal first, before the redtails make their announcement, so a big a/c will come in very handy. Only time will tell, shouldnt be too far away now thou.

[virginblue]

Yes, you are correct. I remember that the aircraft I boarded was a Srs. 201 aircraft.

[GMANX]

just heard today that there are 5 routes that emx are looking at as potential goers, can't say which ones though.

[dwlpl]

Are they all from IOM?

[Snappybits]

Mornin' all.....let's all speculate where 5 new routes from IOM could be...
LTN....most obvious choice after being given up by RE & BA
CWL....unserved for many years after being abandoned by JE
and now I'm struggling to think of anymore but gossip from next door to the Snug mentioned European routes.....surely not CDG again but maybe AMS to offer alternative connections to the world wide yonder which will be in demand once the BA through traffic disappears...
Any more ideas anybody?

[dwlpl]

May not be from IOM at all.

[TechProblem]

Might be places in Ireland like Cork or Belfast, not sure if these are serviced yet out of the iom though.

[dwlpl]

Could it be IOM to Glasgow and Edinburgh and Liverpool to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Belfast City?

[EMX81L]

Well from what ive heard LTN is very much on the cards from the IOM, and maybe more depending on the Flybe announcement.

I heard some routes from LPL aswell. With the current fleet it is possible to do a few here and there if the schedule and a/c are moved around a bit.

If EMX acquire another a/c, that could be based in LPL. Ireland is covered, maybe the odd domestic route.

[RE72]

With The New RE 72's Due For Arrival Around April, Maybe EMX will Lease More RE A/C allowing EMX to expand.

[Hansol]

I take my hat off to the boys and girls at EMX and their backers, they have balls of steel and apparently very deep pockets.

[EMX81L]

dwlpl - GLA and EDI out of the IOM i think is a no go, Scotland is covered by Loganair who are adding more flights for the summer, would be a dangerous move for EMX i think. GLA went very quiet when EMX did it in 2005. However, out of LPL, those could work very well. BHD might be good aswell. Fair comment, Flybe come off the route weekdays, but i believe it was popular on the whole. maybe southern england somewhere aswell?

RE72 - I think EMX would want to try and expand their fleet instead of lease in. But if there are no a/c options available it might be a good move. As I mentioned not to long ago, 2 BA D8-300 may be available to EMX post Flybe/BACon acquisition, so u never know

[OE-HBB]

"LTN....most obvious choice after being given up by RE & BA"

Why?? LTN is not the best of routes at all.. BA was running it with only 20-40 pax at best in the last year of the service, REA have dumped it, ok the planes were full but the only way they could do that was due to the low fares... why would you want to pay £100-£150 for IOM-LTN-IOM then pay £50 for LTN-AGP-LTN.. There is no sense in that at all, passengers just won’t pay it.

Thinking outside the box, and this is only a theory. If flybe are going to loose the -300's and EMX were to obtain a few, that would not hurt. Would i choose new routes off the island? Nope! There are too many routes and airlines already. I would go and tap into another market on routes that nobody else operates.. Where or what i do not know. Or wish to speculate on....

I don’t think that EMX would go for a -400... They have spent the last 2 years working hard and spent lots of cash in stabilizing the -300 fleet and now offer a very stable but flexible programme which is 900% better than it was with a multi fleet.
Why go back to a multi fleet doesn’t make sense. We know that Flybe would like to stream there fleet as soon as they can. So they should off load the -300 to EMX and with a large enough fleet of -300's it surely will become viable to buy they hangar as well....

My 2 cents. :D :D :D

BB:}

[San Expiry]

Well, Hansol, let's just see how 'ballsy' Euromanx are prepared to be. As now appears to be the case that this flybe/BA deal will go through (although I think it might not be as comprehensive a take over as was first envisaged and there could be some discards) there is going to be a big change in the scenery on Fraggle and if ever there was an opprtunity for Euromanx to assert itself as the self styled 'national airline' this is it. But I don't think their balls or specifically those of the Euromanx boss are big enough to take on flybe as and when they move in. A concerted push on LGW with a 400 while flybe sort their act out that could take some time during the inevitable disruption post take over could give them the route in the long run.

HBB - a 400 wouldn't be multi fleeting surely - just a bigger dash alongside some smaller ones. Same manufacturer, can't be too differnet to fly. To try and set up on the mainland where nobody has heard of you is risky even if it they are on new routes - even more risky. Didn't that happen in Ireland last year on uncpompeted routes?

Agree with HBB about the Luton route, a no go but up the aggro on some of the operators already on Fraggle. That takes balls but could pay dividends.

[manx crab]

All this of course assumes that EMX have the ability and financial liquidity to expand. If I had invested in them (which I have not) I would now be wanting a return on that investment, not more expansion and the costs associated with that. There is the constant rumour that they are still going through money rapidly but if they cannot make money now they never will.

The most likely scenario, sadly for passengers, is some sort of deal with Flybe regarding Manchester which in the short term at least (crew shortage) would probably suit Flybe.

Hopefully Flybe will commit themselves to the IOM and at least provide some semblance of competition. Even when they pulled out last time they did keep the BHX route.

What we do not need is another round of unsustainable expansion from EMX. They have done a pretty good job of repairing their reputation over the past 18 months and it would be a shame to spoil it now

[San Expiry]

I'm sure the resident Manx avaition experts will correct me but I cannot recall that Flybe flew the Birmingham route until after they withdrew from the Island.

The flybe/BACON merger topic certainly suggests that the bumper crop of pilots flybe had expected to land in their lap has been decimated and must raise questions about just how much of the former BACON system they are able to operate. If that is the case then priorities have to be established and just where on the list would the Isle of Man feature?

I would still take a pop at some of the oprators in my own back yard before venturing into unknown territory.

[Anotherflapoperator]

Don't forget though, that of all the Bacon bases they're going to get, the IOM is the one place where they would have no shortage of skippers (the most needed seat) available. Enough for three aircraft TOMORROW. F/O's are relatively easy to get, probably from the other resident operators in part and cabin crew numbers could be swelled quickly, especially if they went to 2 on the 146 to help out.

Then again, who knows.
Sorry for interupting on someone else's thread.

My own take is that as the new BA offshoot is so dependant on the RBS, the lean from them will soften Flybe's attack. Possibly.

I would like to see the Redtails prosper (believe it or not). I think the LCY route is the key, and if they concentrate on that, gain the Manchester from Flybe and be circumspect in Flybe storming in to blow them away on the LPL, then the two dashes would do fine in creating a stable profitable base on which to pay back the huge debt to the RBS.

However, right now the profiteering on the Liverpool route is causing some ripples in Government and in the public at large. Price adjustments appear to be a case of leg-lifting and screwing the passengers now the SeaCat is U/S.

Any company would do it, only Emx don't seem to be very subtle as letters in the Examiner see to be appearing frequently. The truism is that from the Rock, competed routes cannot be profitable for either competitor. No competed route has ever been, and Flybe have more resources to fight than anyone else.

As to LTN. Crap route, crap airport. The only thing that sustained it was the time of the rotation suiting leisure and commuting longhaul crews. The mid morning LGW is already very sucessful and we'll need a larger 146 very soon to accomodate demand. If we can fill it in February......

Here's to a quick cat fight and a long term settlement and stability for all the local airlines and those local staff that depend on them for employment and happiness. Oh, and may the new Cheif Minister choke on his own stupidity for causing all this hastle in the first place. Stick to selling plugs and light bulbs,Tony, it's called the Peter Principle. Look it up on Google if you get the chance.

[jet2_at_blk]

I know I may sound a little one-sided, because of my Pprune name, but could it be BLK? Was speculation a while ago about counteracting Manx2 by attacking them on their own routes.

Could be.

LPL- They definately need these domestic routes!

[OE-HBB]

Yes your right san.
It will take a few days for the conversion week of ground school and Sim. But looking at the 2 it could just be that on a Wednesday your flying a 400 and Thursday in the 300...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1106176/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1106176/M/) 300

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1079909/M/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1079909/M/) 400

Yes EMX did try a few things that didn’t work out as they had of thought. But the airlines direction has changed very much since then. As long as they start properly with lots of forethought and planning it could work. Nothing ventured anything gained...

But thinking about this why not just becomes part of the flybe brand? If were taking there aircraft (rumour) they would probably do the maintence especially if it is the 400... Keep them painted in flybe colours if indeed a 400 from flybe was on the cards and operate the fare structure... this is certainly a time for solidarity.

This speculation is becoming funny though... how about a 737-BBJ IOM-EWR??

Manx crab you make a good Point on the return of investment.

I’m done speculating

BB

[manx crab]

San Expiry
Putting my anorak on for a moment, FLYBE were operating BHX in Dec'04 just before they handed the rest to EMX, not sure when they started the route though, right anorak off.

A lot of this depends on how interested FLYBE are in the IOM. Perhaps EMX will let FLYBE have Manchester in return for them staying off the LPL route. The LPL route does have the guaranteed business of the hospital patients which must be a good revenue source The airport figures suggest that they are largely one passenger pool and this could be a way to provide price competition without the normal disastrous results. But will FLYBE be that interested, it will have a lot on its plate when/if the takeover of BACON goes ahead. You can be pretty sure that EMX will have been trying to find out what FLYBE's thought are.

Anotherflapoperator
You have needed a bigger aircraft since your far sighted management got rid of GMIMA

[Hansol]

How about, deal with Flybe on MAN, take over their Dash, keep the ATR72 from Arann and send the 200 and 300 back to the lease holders (they must be due a return), this way nothing would change except the aircraft lease holders, swop Bombardier for Arann and Flybe. To expand would be suicide. A second Liverpool base might work though.

[Island Jockey]

I think you will find that Euromanx now own these two ex JEA Dash 8s S/no 541 and 543 which at just over 6 years old are younger that the current Bacon (ex Brymon models).

[PAXboy]

OE-HBB... why would you want to pay £100-£150 for IOM-LTN-IOM then pay £50 for LTN-AGP-LTN.. There is no sense in that at all, passengers just won’t pay it.This pax has done and would again!

When you live near to LTN and have been using the route since it started (15 years?) then it is attractive. My current alternative (and I am doing it next week) is to tak a train to LGW. Then walk to the shuttle to get to the North and then walk for bloomin' ages to get to the 146/Dash gates. It adds more than an hour each way and, even with the lower air fare, the overall cost is similar to going to my local field.

Don't talk about STN that is a 45 minute hike round the M25/M11 that is fraught with aggro and possible delays and LCY is diametrically the other side of London.

[pabely]

I'm with you PAXboy.
Had to do LCY & LGW this week. Not good. The LTN route had meny regulars. Punch into the internet a few of the Financial Companies that have offices in Douglas IOM and you will find other offices in Milton Keynes, Hemel Hempstead, Stevenage etc. there is demand.

[EMX81L]

I did read somewhere that the IOM Gov might approach an airline to maybe pick it up again, as they said it was a 'disappointment' that it was dropped.

BA did the LTN with an 80....90+ seater 146, and RE with an ATR 42. Ya don't need to put a big aircraft on the route. Pax figures weren't massive, so all EMX need to do is put the 'baby dash' on the route and see how it goes.

As pabely said there is demand. And if it picks up again, put a bigger a/c on it, bobs ur uncle.

[Snappybits]

6000 pax a month used IOM/LTN in its hayday in mid 2006...today zero where have the pax gone? No radical increase on LCY or LGW or BHX. The LTN pax was always price driven and therefore take the cheapest alternative off IOM and then whatever surface transport to their destination.

[GMANX]

I believe they are yes but only from what I have been told.

[manx crab]

The trouble with LTN when Manx and BACON had it were the timings.

I had great hopes when Aer Arann started the double daily but as seems to be usual with them and the IOM as soon as they had done the hard work and got the route to themselves they dropped it.

EMX could probably fit a single rotation with their current fleet but then we would be back to the problem of timings again

[EMX81L]

Manx Crab, ur quite right it is very much possible to fit a LTN rotation into the schedule. Just needs a slight adjustment in timings, and u can easily get one in, maybe double daily if no more rotations are added to the current timetable. Ideally what times would you prefer?

[Ronaldsway Radar]

There's demand for a Luton methinks, but not enough for more than 2 rotations a day.

One would be plenty, morning time, to get the men-in-suits over for lunchtime. And while the apron is nice 'n empty before the midday rush!

RR

[Hansol]

If there was a consistant demand for LTN someone would be operating it, money making routes don't stand idle for long.

[EMX81L]

2005 total pax figures for LTN was 31742 and for 2006 55805, so there is demand for the route indeed.

As 'RR' said a mid-mornin rotation would be gd to get the business folk down for lunch. I think the BA service worked better than the two RE services mornin and night, but there were pax on all of em. Would be nice to see the route back

[manx crab]

EMX81L
Ideally for me Morning leaving IOM about 08.00 and evening returning ex LTN at about 19.30 but as you can see everybody has a different view and of course that would mean EMX would have to get another aircraft.

Anyway,hopefully the whole FLYBE/BACON thing will be sorted tomorrow:E

[EMX81L]

Aye, tis not a bad idea to have 2 flights durin the day incase u need to get back. Those times would work well. If there is demand for LTN which there is, anytime would be gd enough i guess.

Fingers crossed the Flybe/Bacon deal is done today, as I know the proposed summer schedule has been received in the IOM, but im not sure the ins and outs of it at the moment

[fredtheanorak]

Well I C the FlyMayBe / BACond deal is now out and FlyBe ar claiming there MAN IOM timetable will be available to book in the next cuple of days. :confused: Whats hapened to all the rumors from the EuroManx camp that they were taking over MAN compeatley:hmm: . Seems like FlyBe have other plans:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[EMX81L]

Rumours may be true or false, and in this case it was false. Never know how long their commitment is goin to be, might change for the winter schedule.

I do know that the BE Manchester is goin down to 4 flights mon-fri with no lunch time rotation, and changin slightly for the weekend.

[Hansol]

Time must be approaching for EMX to try and expand again, they need to look for that "critical mass" which for so long has been just out of reach. This summer may be a good time to try the second base plan again, now Bacon has gone I am sure there must be gaps that can be exploited, wouldn't be suprised to see an Eastern expansion for the same reasons.

[fredtheanorak]

If its' rite that Fly MayBe are puting an Emb145 on the route and cuting to 4x a day surely Euros should leap into the gap:confused:

[EMX81L]

Not a case of if Flybe are....they are puttin a EMB145 on the MAN run.

From what I've seen of the Flybe summer schedule, there isn't a lunchtime service. EMX already have the 1220 service already in there, all they need to do is put the D8-300 on the lunchtime rotation.

[fredtheanorak]

In which case EMX81 I suggest you have a word with youre boss about strategie while the oportunitey is their:ugh: :ugh: . EMB 145 into IOM will be fun on days like yesterday and Euros should have a natural advantadge. The Baby dash is old and scruffiy but at least in can get in and out:ok:

[EMX81L]

I think EMX have had quite a few ideas on the go at the mo while waiting for BE to make their move. Im pretty sure route expansion is in there somewhere . Will be interesting to see what they come up with. The baby dash is suitable at the moment, but for the summer and the TT comin up, somethin a little bigger will be required i think.

Also, from what I know of the EMB145, IOM, and what ive heard, you can't fully load the 145. I believe 42 pax with a 'normal' amount of bags for the load is about its limit for take-off due to the runway length on the IOM.

[manx crab]

EMX81L
If I have read the various press releases correctly, then FLYBE are getting a wad of money to subsidise the operation of the EMB145's so perhaps they will not be too worried about the payload restriction if there is one.

You may also be surprised how many SLF will opt for a jet service over prop. Indeed when EMX was in fantasy mode a couple of years ago they announce they were going to offer jet service to Man to differentiate the product.

I am surprised EMX are adding another service to Man though, would have though they could make more on a route without competition eg LTN

[fredtheanorak]

I agree, Surely it would make sense 4 them to cut BHD and use the baby- toput one extra rotatiun into MAN :8 and 1 into LTN insted?:confused:

[part69]

If you look closely at the schedule, after TT week, they will need an extra aircraft to operate the additional services just announced. There still might be hope for luton.

But you just don't know, there could have been deals done withe flybe, i.e EM stay off luton and flybe stays of LPL?

We will just wait and see

[Yak97]

Euromanx should be very careful if trying to do a "deal" with Flybe.

Aurigny had a "deal" with Flybe on MAN-GCI yet now Flybe are announced that they are going onto the route.

[EMX81L]

Part69 - I had a look at the schedule yesterday, but didn't look that far ahead, youre quite right.

Up until around mid-june there is an extra service running TUES, WED, THURS. On these days at the mo, the Baby dash is sat on the apron between 1420 and 1740, so that will work and utilise the a/c all day.

But from around mid-june onwards, looks like EMX are running extra ones on the MON, FRI, SUN in the spaces where the BHD would be, and looking at the BHD schedules, nothing has changed, so somethin extra will be needed indeed, maybe a BACON or now Flybe D8-300 :hmm:

fredtheanorak - I agree with you on that one aswell, BHD needs to go, as Manx2 have lots of belfast services runnin each day. Which would leave either a gap for another MAN (5) or a LTN

[part69]

If EuroManx pulled off the belfast route that would be win No1 for Manx2.

The aviation business is ruthless, publicly this would be bad press for them.

EuroManx need to stay on this route and compete with Manx2 to maintain there status as the "leading airline in the IOM" John Seymour quote.
I believe they can see off manx2 but only with better schedules i.e twice a day, the second service after the last Manchester. Viable? I think so.

I aslo think they should go six a day on LPL to stop other airlines steping in.
For example VLM Mancester to LCY, route is doing very well, they had a sniff of Ba Citiflyer starting so increased flights to 9 a day to protect the route (also because of pax figures I know)

Part

[PAXboy]

I doubt that 'deals' would be done between airlines. In the days of the old boys clubs, they could keep that sort of thing under wraps but these days age such things tend not to remain private for long.

If two companies collude to not compete with each, they will be investigated by the likes of the Office of Fair Trading.

[nav3]

Snappybits,

What was the average sort of ticket price either single or one way back then to Ltn.....any ideas ?

[xtypeman]

Just for info YAK97 flybe's MAN-GCI is via SOU Aurigny will maintain direct services 1 hr 20 as opposed to 2hr 30 and one stop.

[pabely]

nav3 - depends if you want to go via LGW or LCY and get a train or taxi. There currently is not a direct connection.

[nav3]

Thanks for that Pabely,... and noted. As a businessman in the North East, I am getting VERY fed up with road and rail links around the UK. If you go by road, you spend half you life in queues wondering if you will ever get there and if you go by rail you run the risk of standing room only and then possibility of ending up in a field after derailment !!

Even going from Manchester or Liverpool (to fly North OR South) you are talking half an hour to park the car (especially Man) and get back to the terminal and all the associated aggro with it. What we need in this area is a Business type airline hopping around the UK like it used to be before the Low cost boys started with a 'park the car in the car park over the road' and be checked in and on the plane in 30-40 mins if you are short on time or have a drink in the executive lounge at Blackpool for 20 mins. Big airports like Manchester do nothing these days for the business traveller IMHO. Just the bucket and spade lot.

Problem is up here, you can only do that from local places like Blackpool & maybe Carlisle eventually ?

I heard they were looking at such a thing from Coventry recently which would be a good idea to escape the M6 and if you are going to Central London what better for me that Blackpool to Luton and then train for the last 20 mins and I am in Central London !!

[fredtheanorak]

:{ Looking at the Euros website today I C theyve' stuk up the fares on Mon + Fridays after TT to levels nowones' goin to pay. := Is this to stop any more bookings befor they canx the evening rotatiuns strate after TT?:confused: makes no sence to go 4x a day to MAN on midweak but not on M & Fri -buzzyiest days:( :( :( :uhoh: . Still think they shuold canx Morning BHD as well and grab LTN:= its a big market.

[Snappybits]

Nav

way back in the good old days LTN was offered as the Farecracker route to London off setting the high fare profile of IOM/LHR with Manx Airlines
Fares have always therefore remained in the low area of GBP69-00 - GBP120-00 rtn. BA followed suit and in fact AerArann found they were also unable to push the fares higher as the route has always been seen as the cheap way to London no-one has been able to extract a yeild that would make it profitable to operate...
That's why no one is on it. Obviously it is a tantalising carrot with theoretically 6000 pax per mth which from the Summer 06 pax stats who want to go there.

Another mystery of IOM services....loads of pax but they don't want to part with the cash.....

[Hansol]

Paxboy - airlines do do deals, and airlines on the iom certainly do deals, its the only way to create a viable business with the governments crazy open skies policy.

[Tinwald]

Well fellas, looks like the flymaybes are now the flydefinates on the Rock and with more to come so they say in the MI. The redtails haven't made much of a response in fact blink and youve missed itand where sare those extra seats they are supposed to need. Flybe must be shakin in there boots - not. Me and the fellas still reckon the redtails can be taken out if flybe wanted to do it. Might be better for all concerned if they bring those long prop jobs and the 195 over, yessir.:D

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Is it just me or have prices on 3W flights suddenly risen a hell of a lot?!

Attempted to book a return flight for June. No chance on earth I'm paying what they quoted me. I can go via Dublin for cheaper than that!!!

Looks like I'll be taking the 410' option to Blackpool then!

Sorry euromanx but if you want to keep your Liverpool/Manchester customers those prices are going to have to come down a notch.

[Tinwald]

Ronnie, fella, We can argue about fares all night and miss valuable drinking time. Juan has just had a look on this blueberry gizmo he's 'acquired' and you pays your money and takes your choice now I don't know when you want to fly but heres a comparison. Leave the rock on friday 1 june at 0720 to Liverpool with the redtails and 0725 with manxietoos to Blackpool then come back a week later 1050 redtails 1125 manxies and the redtails come in a fiver cheaper. So me and the fellas reckon your being a bit disingenuos you know what I mean and Juan couldn't spell it but he'll have a check on his blackcurrant.

[Hansol]

From an airline operational point of view the fares are about right for the costs involved. In any airline you have a difficult balancing act to make money, if you put the prices up, less people will travel, if you keep them low to try and attract custom you run the risk of making a very large loss. The problem with the Island has always been the same (and its getting worse) too many airlines, not enough people. John Seymour's gimmick of selling some of his tickets at gbp 28 is a clever one, it highlights the costs these guys have to bear. RWY is a very expensive place to operate from, and lets face it you don't get a lot for your money! Prices wil always find the right level and on the Island at least there is always the boat to keep everyone honest:uhoh:
You pays your money and you takes your choice, the only people who can break this cycle are the government and until they do air traffic on the IOM will continue to decline.

[San Expiry]

Hansol, would you care to clarify what you mean by...

'the only people who can break this cycle are the government and until they do air traffic on the IOM will continue to decline'.

[jet2_at_blk]

This is called in the economic world as elasticity.
All airlines serving the island will pitch their fares into the correct margin for the maximum income and therefore profit.
Travel on the island is essential, meaning air travel has an inelasticity, as prices can rise, but demand will not fall. I therefore cannot see how the airports figures will keep declining? Increase of flights from Manx2 and Euromanx in the coming months, the airports fortunes may start to change.
Just look at FR, they pile there seats high and sell them low. Would you pay 100 pounds to somewhere like Sczezin or Alghero, no, but you would pay 20 pounds. Mr OL has really executed the elasticity on EU travel.

[Eh Hello?]

Let's not lose sight of the cost per seat involved. The Rock will never have a Ryanair or Easyjet without a longer runway, and a willingness by the government to put all their eggs into one 190 seat jet to Liverpool or Manchester per day, which is not going to happen. So for as long as turboporps are flying routes, fares should reflect the cost of flying small capacity aircraft on relatively price sensitive routes. We're kidding ourselves if we think airlines will pump loads of seats out on prime time flights at low fares.

Supply and demand, convenience and need to travel, aircraft speed and ferry crossing times. The customer has a choice, but if the airlines go all silly again and try to see who has the deepest pockets, we're stuffed, yet again.
Let every airline find its niche, serve it well and economically; if they step out of line with what the other airlines could provide on that route, they will pay the price by inviting competition, so indirect competiton should keep manners on the fares charged.

I get the impression some posters know what they are talking about, but many cannot see beyond the haze of Ryanairesque fares. Get real. Airlines are businesses, they need to make money. If Islanders want reliable services, they need to pay economical rates for all parties.

If the existing airlines cannot get the fares they need to continue the service, they will drop out. And then what will we have - there are very few suitable airlines with turboprops left in the UK, and one at least has props which are too expensive for 30 minute flights. Just think about it.

[Hansol]

The iom government have it in their power to provide a level of certainty to the airlines operating from the Island. They could for instance grant route licences with certain conditions, in the same way as they have given a long term licence to the Steam Packet. They chose to run an open skies policy which does not work, look how many airlines have come and gone in the last 10 years. If the airlines have this security they will invest,they will improve and the whole Island and its economy will benefit.

But it costs what it costs to run an airline and like any business they have to make a profit to survive.

[nospeedrestriction9]

Talking about prices it seems Manx2 have come in with a £26 fare for Belfast City!
Is this the start of a fares war?

Cheerz :ok:

[jet2_at_blk]

Why do they need a price war?

They currently hold 67.5% of the passengers travelling between the Island and Belfast, which is up from 59% in January, showing that they have had the major holding over EMX for some time! The increase is mainly due to the new 'Shuttle service' which was launched late last year, and was put into action on Valentines day this year. They now operate 5 daily return flights flights between IOM and the two Northern Irish airports (BFS and BHD), compared to EMX's one (MON/FRI is two).

No wonder EMX is concentrating on their MAN route!

With Manx2 probably gaining all control of the Belfast route before long and looking at a eight flights per day on the LPL route, where does EMX look now?

Seems to be that they will leave Manx2 to it, and take on BE on the MAN route! They will need to bolster their mainland English routes if they want any chance of getting through this tough patch.

Shame really. They were once and international airline, flying to Ireland, Spain, France etc. And now they are being overhauled by a 19-seater airline on one of their routes.

Good luck to EMX!:D

[fredtheanorak]

Hansol youre rite about the nead for a licensing system on IOM to insure there's someone left to tern the lights out. :{ Seams Manx2 are undercuttin all BHD fares by £2 till EuroMonkeys pulloff. Still think it would be sensibul for them to give BHD to M2 and consentrate on MAN, LCY and LPL. :D Consolidate there strengths ;run 2 monopoly routes and really have a big push on MAN while FlyMaybe are all over the show with there reorganizatiun. IOM needs stronger players and big aircraft on big routes, small 19 seaters on small routes:O

[red17]

FlyBe seem to have a clear idea of what they want from IOM and chances are it wont inolve euromanx to MAN.

[Air Badger]

If they were that keen on getting EMX off the MAN, there's no way they would have cancelled the lunchtime flights!

[fredtheanorak]

:rolleyes: This battle will be fought over MAN. Euros will go 4x dayly every day after TT and by Autumn Flybe will upgrade their kit and add back the rotatiun.:uhoh: It's the calm be4 the storm old chap!

[red17]

That 3rd aircraft that has been rumoured could in theory take over the BE BHX and SOU routes allowing the Lunchtime MAN rotation back aswell as other possible routes. GLA or EDI?

[fredtheanorak]

Yep, seems FlyMaybees plan is to add back 5th MAN rotatiun PDQ and also to add a 0900 BHX in the autumn to compliment there new 1700 BHX time plus 3 a day to LPL:cool: . Shuld set the cat amung the whatsits:hmm:

[Flybeeeee]

fredtheanorak and any other members stupid enough to think 'FlyMaybe' funny, the company name is FLYBE. Please use this for future reference.

Many thanks

[fredtheanorak]

Perseption is reality old boy.......but dont feal too bad, we can start a thred with niknames.

FlyMaybee, Ryanscare,Euromonkeys,JetWho. Anyone else?:confused:

[Flybeeeee]

Wow, never realised there were so many highly hilarious (:hmm: ) nicknames....Ryanscare, Euromonkeys (presuming Euromanx) and just to add one to the pot so that I feel I fit in god old (back in the day) Dandareways.

Anyway how and where is the information on Flybe plans coming from as this is news to the employees.

[TechProblem]

Well you still have to pay for bags and excess with FlyBe, also exit seats.
Euromanx dont charge (yet) for any of these, so there are differences between the 2.

Just depends what you want from the Airline at the end of the day, O and how much the ticket costs. :rolleyes:

[Flybeeeee]

Don't Euromanx operate the Dash8-200/300?? both in my experience somewhat uncomfortable. I would rather pay a little extra as the Q400 is alot more comfy but like you say TechProblem, it depends on what you want from an airline.

[fredtheanorak]

I remember when FlyMayBe werent so posh and were flying Bandits then Sheds out of Blk. Now they are all posh and Euros fly the ageing rubish.:eek: What gos around cums around. :O

Still think EuroManx will feal a pinser movement from FlyMayBe and there new frends and shareholders at BA :( who are still looking at LCY IOM with 146s. This will give them competitiun from BA on LCY, FlyMayBe on MAN and LPL and Manx2 on BHD:{ :{ The jets and the Q400s will win.:{

[skiddyiom]

Flybeeee, the Q200/300's are no less comfortable than the Q400. All the Bombardier aircraft are good for the job they do. I wouldn't want to fly on any of them for more than an hour or so.

Anyway, I'll do a first hand comparison next week when I fly from IOM-MAN on a Q300 then MAN-EXE on a Q400. :}

skiddy

[Island Jockey]

Talking about prices it seems Manx2 have come in with a £26 fare for Belfast City!
Is this the start of a fares war?

Cheerz :ok:

As Manx 2 aircraft are less than 19 seats the fares are exempt the £10 each way Airport Passenger Duty which should make their fares very competative compared to other IOM operators..............:)

[fredtheanorak]

any of U Euro jocks at Mr Seymores love in this week:confused: It seams hes' worried about pilot morale and had to adress the troops to deny lots of rumurs:{ . Parenly MAN is going 4x daily all weekdays not just T,W,Th, he wants to keep BDH and aiming to kill :ouch: anyone who comes onto LCY or LPL:O Any comment from those present. Seems pprune :ok: has been better informed recentley than what hes been telling his boys & girls:= . they were all waiting for the big announcement.....and waiting......and waiting.......and waiting....and still b:mad:dy waiting.......

[Hansol]

No point in EM responding until something is formally announced, at the moment they are stil the only game in town for LPL and LCY.

[fredtheanorak]

Seams the new owners of LCY are increasing landing charges by 35% and widening the peak period. Operators are all in revolt but nothing they can do:ooh: :ooh: BA Cityflyer happy as it could chuck open some good slots and good routes.:eek:

[Capt. Horrendous]

EMX 81L said earlier today in a now deleted post:

However, as i know a fair bit about loadsheets, the 145 is a god awful aircraft to trim. if u have a full load, u have to hope they have alot of bags, otherwise the 145 will be in the drink.

Alarmist tosh!!! := .
Firstly, it won't be in the drink, because if it's not in trim, a load sheet can't be generated and you don't go.

Secondly, the 145 can take a full load of pax to Madrid from Manchester with 4 tonnes of fuel - so carrying an extra 200kg of Ballast to trim the thing when the hold would otherwise be empty on a short business route where you only need 1.8 tonnes of fuel ain't gonna be a problem.

I'm not surprised you want them to go soonest - like someone said earlier - they're gonna prove very popular.

I'll wave as I overtake the EMs at over 400 knots, quietly, smoothly....;)

[spanner the cat]

Ref previous posts about EMB 145 and loading. Agree with Capt Horrendous. Although if it rains when said emb is trying to land at Ronaldsway with a packed aircraft......:uhoh:.:\

[EMX81L]

Apologies if i have offended anyone regarding the 145. Im only going on information I have received. But in regards to a wet runway, and a slight crosswind, and the length on the runway on the island that will be the most common problem. Fair comment about the ballest to bring the weight back, and obviously if its out of trim then it wont be goin anywhere. This is one of the main reasons why they dont get used for passenger flights on the island already. I don't have anything against the 145, but its not the best choice, Q400 would be the way forward. Right, back onto the thread title 'Euromanx'.

Any new developments?

[red17]

Anyone know whats happening with this thread?? There seems to be at least 2 or 3 posts that have been deleted since yesterday. One was connected to EuroManx and expansion...

[Tinwald]

Blimey the cider didnt help either. What the f$%^ going on here> All the replies since that HBC fella stuck a post at teatime yesterday on about the redtails doing this and that have disappeaered.

[treaclecat]

Captain Horrendous

Have you ever Flown out of the IOM in a howling gale and rainstorm on an EMB 145?

[fredtheanorak]

us non tea time viewers missed the info. :{ Any chance of a sumary or pm from one of you avid watchers:confused:

[Capt. Horrendous]

Treacle Cat, the worst has been 230/25-40 kts with an empty aircraft (extra mass makes it more stable) positioning for maintenance late one Friday night- so technically, yes, but only the once I have to admit. The wee girlie can be a handful when it gets very rough with the speed being up and down like a Peel girl's draws on a Friday night. Once you've flown a few approaches to RWY 33 @ BHX with anything more than a 30Kt nor westerly, you soon learn the techniques required !.

The only significant performance issue is with still air on 08 if it's wet (the displaced threshold reducing the LDA) - guess it'll be 26 for landing then on those days.

The locally based Captains (me included) who are coming back to fly the thing have contended with most if not all of the conditions that Mona's Isle can conjure up to ruin your day over the past 12-15 years, so we're well aware of the challenges ahead.

Anyway, as someone said, it's and EMX thread, so sorry for invading, but the wee lassies character was affronted and a riposte was required !.

See you on the ramp.

[treaclecat]

capt horrendous

This wee lassie wasnt offended just asking the question. Might be offended at being called a wee lassie again though being a 6ft 4 male!!!!!

[skiddyiom]

Treaclecat, I think you have the wrong end of the stick there. Captain H was referring to the Barbie Jet when he talks abot the wee lassie. So untangle your jock-strap and relax! Or should that be G-string? :}
Wonder if Euromanx wanna buy some surplus Barbie's? They'd look mighty fine with red tails. :8
skiddy

[fredtheanorak]

skiddy I think the red tails will need a one of your Barbie Jets after TT:rolleyes: Theyve just added a Forth MAN rot on MONs and FRIs on there website. Good move.:D

:p Unfortunitely the MAN aircraft is still timetabeled to be in BHD at the same time:= and the other two are in LPL and LCY . OOps....................:{ :{ :{ whose goin to tell the pax:confused: .

[Capt. Horrendous]

Tikkicat, Skiddy has it right.

[Hansol]

So how many rotations is that on MAN ? I make it 9 a day, someone is going to take a pasting. Got to hand it to EM though they are going down fighting.

[skiddyiom]

BE will do the summer schedule and cut right back come the winter. If they are still here in strength in October I'll be surprised.

EM will still be here and will hopefully be able to expand.

skiddy

[Tinwald]

Hansol fella. Weve lined up the beer mats and reckon that there have been 8 runs to and from Manchester for ages with the redtails running 3 and those bacons running 5 so we don't reckon one more will do much harm. Coarse, those bacon jets must burning pound notes in those engines for a littel run to Manchester.

[Capt. Horrendous]

Tinwald, fuel burns.

The Dash 8 300 still air plan shows a burn of 392Kg and a worse case flight time of 36 mins MAN-IOM for 50 seats sold. The E145 has figures of 526Kg and 30 Mins for 49 seats. So the jet is 6 mins quicker and 134 Kg thirstier.

Now, jet fuel is about 30 per litre (the last I heard).So, worst case its about £50 more in gas per trip - about one passenger fare. The quicker flight time means more rotations/maintenance input - so that will counter it somewhat.

It's not that more expensive in the scheme of things.

[San Expiry]

Worst case - £50 x 10 = £500 per diem x 364 = £182000 off the bottom line.

[manx crab]

Don't forget though that WW gave Flybe a load of cash to subsidise the 145's and looking at the fares they are not ludicrously cheap to Man either.

I hope EMX have the finance to last out, although they should be making good money on LCY and LPL a the moment. It would be nice to have two settled airlines operating a variety of routes to the island at reasonable (not giveaway) fares:)

[Capt. Horrendous]

Expensive business this flying isn't it !.

Using the same rationale, the figure will be reduced somewhat by the 364 hours less on the airframe each year and the reduction in DOC there - no idea what that value is, but I know how much it costs to hire a PA28 an hour dry !.

The Embraer is slated to change to a Q400 in the new year, so it's only a short term expense - would have thought some of the £125 million that BA are giving FlyBE could be used to cover it.

[Hansol]

You can work out the cost of the aircraft as much as you want, the big question is can you put enough bums on seats at the right price? 8 x say 40 = 320 return pax a day at say 70% break even = 224 return per day, its a tall order, especially as you don't want to knacker up LPL with a price war on MAN.

[granddaddy]

Early indications at IOM is that Euromanx appear to be higher priority than Flybe as far as Flight Support is concerned.

All 3W flights look to be operating more or less on time,Flybe on the other hand suffering continuing delays.

Could this be part of a greater Euromanx/Flight Support plot to discredit Flybe as early as possible.Or is there some other reason????

;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[TechProblem]

The only reason the FlyBe's are delyed is because they have taken over bacon, bacon crews are doing the flights on the EMB 145's and these crew's dont care if it goes on time atm.

If the flights were oped by the Q400 or the EMB 195 they would be on time.

Euromanx on the other hand have a very good rep of being on time anyway.

[granddaddy]

Don't accept that.
146 is operated by same crews who flew for BAConnect,all v.professional and dedicated to S.O.S,safety-ontime-service!!
Same goes for ERJ145 now operated by some former Manx Airlines ex-IOM flight crews.

Euromanx/Flight Support need another excuse!!!

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[treaclecat]

Just to let you know as a matter of interest the MAN EMB145 went 5 minutes early last night and all throughout just day 3 of a new operation there were very few delays. The only reason these flights have not been going on time over the last few days has nothing to do with Pilots,,FS or MR not wanting the flights to run on time its purely and simply that even proffessional check in agents, crews, load controllers and dispatchers need a chance to adapt to new procedures give the staff a break. There is nothing anyone can do about Tech or ATC slot delays these are things that cannot be blamed on the people above so as said before just give the staff the time to adapt. Pilots and Crews are proffessional people who do not play political games they leave that to the management

[Snappybits]

Pilots and Crews are proffessional people who do not play political games they leave that to the management



Meaning???

[treaclecat]

meaning just that, its an insult to suggest that any proffessional person would purposely delay a flight. Whether these pilots were once BACON or Manx Airlines is of no matter these companies no longer exist and they now work for Flybe and their objectives are the same as before - on time arrival and departure times.
That was the meaning behind my comment nothing more nothing less

[Snappybits]

Indeed the ex Bacon guys and gals are total professionals as are the ground staff in the IOM.....
It was the rmk that Management play political games......can't get my head around that one as one would have thought Management both MR & FS would be striving to make the change over run smooth till FS take over in whenever.

[red17]

Treaclecat, I totally agree with you, there is no way that anyone involved would delay a flight on purpose. Every delay that has occured has been due to a range of problems and TZ going tech was just unfortunate timing.

SnappyBits and granddaddy, Its highly unlikely that FS would try to delay FlyBe. Remember they own Manchester Handling and FlyBe is there principle contract and there passport to bigger and better things. They will want to do everytjing they can to please BE as I believe the contract is up for renewal in 18 months in IOM, although I may be wrong. EuroManx operating on time isn't a suprise, for them this week is exactly the same as last. For BACON / FlyBe everything has changed. A new handling agent has entered the picture, schedule changes on both routes, diffrent aircraft types and perhaps most importantly shorter turn around times on the LGW service. Things are getting better(ish). :ok: Keep it going

[red17]

Well there was a post on here about a week ago saying that BHD was to be discontinued. I sent a PM to the poster and the reply was intresting. The post was deleted though... There was a lot of other rumours in there so I wouldn't read too much into it. Although I could be wrong....

[red17]

Snappybits, it was just the post to treaclecat about meaning?? I hadn't read your later post. We know Flight Support wouldn't delay them on purpose but I still have reservations as to the ability of the management at both companies, to make this a smooth transition.

[TechProblem]

Don't accept that.
146 is operated by same crews who flew for BAConnect,all v.professional and dedicated to S.O.S,safety-ontime-service!!

Ok then, why did one former BA cabin crew resgin on the a/c, then the EDI flight was cancelled....this was one instance

Although this will all sort itself out soon, the most of the delayed flights had been on the forumer BA a/c because either they wanted a brew, (btw FS staff having really been gettting one im told) Professional i think not... but getting away from the euromanx thread here.

The point I was really making is that Flybe will start to get more and more on time as the weeks pass by, its just a bilp, and once everything is ironed out Euromanx will have better competition.

[red17]

TechProblem, If you are meaning a IOM - EDI cancellation then that has nothing to do with FlyBe, Its operated by Loganair under their BA franchise. And as for cabin crew resigning on the a/c thats not suprising. I have heard how FlyBe have treated some members and I would have done the same. People can only be expected to accept so much. Things are improving for FlyBe though, Todays flights look on time

[manxbudgie]

As this is supposed to be a EMX thread and not another thread relating to FS MR BA or FLybe I would like to put it back on track and say isnt it perhaps time that EMX took hold of the reigns and lived up to their claims of being the IOM airline, Come on EMX you know you can do it, theres a brilliant engineering hangar going up for grabs with technically skilled staff about to pack their bags and leave the airport, their are 2 handling agents in FS and MR that are haggling for business you are with one at the moment but not everything is written in stone, try the other one at least then your flights would be prioritised over the new FlyBe who from what I see is all FS are interested in at the moment. The office space that will become available at the airport would put you closer to the business and at long last we could once again have an airline that is showing real interest in the needs of the people of the ISland

[TechProblem]

Sorry for not making it clear, it was MAN-EDI and was just a example, anyway back on to EMX :D

[red17]

The chance of 3W novinng to MR is extremely thin. I believe that FS and 3W have shared senior management/ownership. Also Euromanx may not want to have the same handlers as MANX2 after the BFS/BHD pax figures:ok:

[TechProblem]

Flight Support also handled them in manchester, and are very happy, so i cant see them moving away.

[This is a crisis]

If FS are treating both airlines equally, why was there only 1 check-in desk open this morning to cover both the Flybe MAN and LGW flights? First day of the Easter hols, busy flights......both the Flybe flights were delayed, the LGW by about 40mins!
If there is a 'common link' between FS and Euromanx, surely they are going to give priority to Euromanx.

[manxbudgie]

Possible answer to question of only one desk open for LGW and Man is simply a staffing issue.
I have heard from people on the IOM that FS are finding it difficult to employ people because their pay scales are so low.
Hope they get their staffing sorted before the big TT festival or there could be delays at check in and I am sure that would not go down very well with the FlyBe management after all FS have made the promise that they can handle these flights lets hope they were not false promises made by a management that gave such a low tender to get the contract that they cant fulfill there promise because of lack of staff!!

[PPRuNe Pop]

Please ENSURE that your post relates to the topic ONLY.

There is far too much inrrelevant info on this thread that should be in the IOM Airport thread for example.

Deletions have taken place and more will follow if they do not fit. It becomes very boring to read the same info twice, or even three times.


AA&R mods

[manxbudgie]

My apologies to the moderator, I was just following the other replys I will in future be more careful where I post my comments.

[treaclecat]

EMX have certainly moved on from those early days and long may that continue, it would be nice for the Island to have their own airline once again not that anyone can see that happening but I am sure if it did EMX would be a good advert for the Island as they had their teething problems way back when but certainly have improved their image even though their fares are not as competitive as they used to be - prices to get off this Island are unreal!!

[IOMspotter]

I see Euromanx have totally dropped their fule surcharge but their taxes and charges per sector have shot up to £28 single. Has any background to this been published - I cant find anything on their website?

[virginblue]

As much as "fule surcharges" have anything to do with actual fuel prices, "taxes and charges" airlines charge have anything to do with the actual taxes and charges they pay to the authorities. It is just a different way to hide what the real fare is.

[fredtheanorak]

So when certain airlines advertise "fly for free";) and then jerk up taxes and charges at the same time its' a bit of a joke isnt' it:{ :{

[Grand yahoo]

All airlines are tax collectors of the £10 per passenger Airport Passenger Duty which goes to the treasury UK and IOM.
All airports charge per passenger for each departing passenger. This can range from £12-£16 on the IOM.
See http://www.iom-airport.com/lib/docs/airport/feesexternal0708.pdf
So if taxes and charges are more than £30 there is something else in there.
Euromanx charges are in line with competition probably to make easier fare comparisons. If fares off IOM are less than £20 then the airline is paying towards the tax or planes with less 20 seats do not attract the governments APD.
Off the IOM it is a lottery for Taxes & Charges
BA - £21.50, Emx £28.00 and flybe £33.50 Eastern £27.00
Where does this APD go!

[Haven't a clue]

If you read the charges document you'll see that a rebate scheme operates and if the load factor is 81-100% there's a 75% rebate. Thus if the 'plane is full, the airline pockets most of the charge. It is of course designed to incentivise the airlines to fill the 'planes, which requires low lead-in fares, which keeps the travelling public happy etc.

From an administration stand point why don't they just charge a flat rate?

Much simpler to administer and transparent to the punter. (I guess though it was designed by one of those consultant chappies who specialise in creating mobile phone tarrifs and the like:ugh: )

[Chica]

I have never been a fan of EMX having been let down by them too often in the past, but having suffered the hell hole at is LGW south terminal over 3 times over the last 3 weeks, I thought I'd give LCY a try for a day trip this week - until I saw their prices.

EMX to LCY 13/4 £426
FLYBE to LGW 13/4 £230

I'm sure that EMX have seen a mass migration of LGW regulars since BA exited IOM (after all, no more BA miles, lounge access or tier points) but this price differential is just too great.

[IOMspotter]

It's more hassle but I've booked to go to LGW next week via Manx2 to Belfast for £68 return plus easyJet £23.99 out £22.99 return. Less than £115 all in!

LHR was also available via BHD (8x daily) and Baby at less than £100 return.

[Anotherflapoperator]

With the changes that'll be happening later this summer to Flybe's IOM based fleet, (can't say any more right now) the costs will surely enable FlyBE's lead in fares to be extended to loads more cheap fares should be available, if you can stand Pier 1 at LGW that is!

As I can't get any further than the airbridge, just how bad is it in there? The main shopping part is OK, it's only the pier that is old and grotty and that's due to be knocked down and redeveloped next year I believe.

Surely it's worth putting up with for a good safe flight, professional LOCAL crew with loads of experience and knowledge and a good operator with safe practices, regulations and modern aircraft..bye bye 146 soon enough?

Your Manx Airlines trained staff are still there to fly you safely and now also back to on time as well, well, mostly.

At least we don't re-schedule flights. If it's late, it's late. We say sorry and work as hard as possbile to get you there as soon as we can. The food's pretty good as well, equal value to M&S or Boots,etc. Even the crew food is better, yippee! You can spill tomato juice on it and not notice now!

[OE-HBB]

Well, if your looking to upset people thats the way to do it. :mad: :mad:

Looking around me I am surrounded by "REAL MANX" EX MANX AIRLINES STAFF that have been in aviation for a very long time, Pilots included.

The average age of the fleet is 7 years old. so how is that not modern...

What ever your agenda is I wish you luck.:ok:

HBB

[IOMspotter]

I hear tell of an incident at LPL yesterday (Fri) with the ATR. Undercarriage problems? Led to long delays this morning on LPL again with the aircraft still tech and irate punters late for Aintree. Any facts on the incident anyone?

[Anotherflapoperator]

Sorry HBB, yes, there are a few Ex manx folk at EMX too. I have always stated I reckon theres a place for both companies at IOM, I wouldn't like to see what some state around me, because I've got friends who work for EMX and I wouldn't want what's happened to those still (just) working for BACON to happen to them.

7 years, eh? Perhaps it's the paint, but when the FLybe Q4's arrive, the paint will only be dry on them!

[Manxman11]

Anotherflapoperator

I just hope your experiences are better with those new aircraft than SAS's were (and continue to be) when their shiny new Q400's had appalling despatch reliability.

What are the benefits of LGW for the businessman? It was bad enough when those monkeys who mismanaged BA Connect decided to rip the businessman off by charging the same fares for less service, but now we have FlyBe and the awful South terminal to deal with.

Euromanx won my business last year by providing a reliable service to LCY (which I use frequently), and by being flexible. For short and long haul transfer its Euromanx to MCR, then onward either direct or through CDG or AMS.

I sincerely hope FlyBe is successful not least for the IOM based crews and staff who were shafted by the aforementioned Didsbury monkeys but I can't help but think they are another airline who will have no hesitation in dropping IOM routes as soon as more profitable ones appear - lets face it it wouldn't be the first time.:hmm:

[Anotherflapoperator]

They didn't drop the route, but passed it on to EMX because they couldn't make money from it and EMX thought they could.

Remember, for the next year, the LGW route is a codeshare with BA, so you can still book with BA for longhaul and save on the shorthaul part, collect air miles and use the BA lounge once you're through the South Terminal part if you've chosen the right ticket.

The Monkeys at Didsbury you speak of were only that, they didn't grind the organ themselves, that was done at waterworld.

The FlyBe changes are settling down a bit now, so reliability is improving gradually, and the Q400 reliability is also a lot better than it was. I can't think of any regional type that hasn't suffered problems in it's first years, and the Q4 is no worse than many. We won't get new'uns anyway, the crews at Exeter get to shake them down for a bit before they head out to outstations, especially as they have several brand new spares sat outside for when they do fall over;)

You choose EMX for reliable service? Fine. As I say, I hope there's room for both operators. You can be through South Terminal quickly enough, and it saves time getting to the train station from North Terminal anyway. There's plenty of good longhaul operators besides BA at Gatwick, the four rotations suit many of them perfectly.

I even use LCY once in a while as sometimes, it suits me too. Competition, eh? It just doesn't suit Manx traditions really.

[G-JECL]

Will EMX be introducing any new routes at all?

[red17]

In an issue of Horions, their in-flight magazine (me thinks) John Seymour is on record saying that he is looking forward to further UK domestic expansion of EuroManx. Where this is to or when it will happen is anyones guess. My thought was that it could be Luton. However that would risk diluting there City route passenger numbers:eek: . Only a thought. Anybody got any ideas?? :confused: :ok:

[Ronaldsway Radar]

3W flight to LPL this afternoon delayed 'indefinately' due technical problems apparently.

The mothers first trip off the Island in years and her flights delayed!!

Anyone know what's up with it?

RR

[pabely]

'In an issue of Horions, their in-flight magazine (me thinks) John Seymour is on record saying that he is looking forward to further UK domestic expansion of EuroManx. Where this is to or when it will happen is anyones guess. My thought was that it could be Luton. However that would risk diluting there City route passenger numbers:eek: . Only a thought. Anybody got any ideas?? :confused: :ok:'

I too was surprised no-one took up Luton this summer. Doesn't the VLM sit around all day at IOM? From Aer Arran & BA to nothing was strange. I know the RE base at LTN was costly but previously it was operated without LTN based aircraft. As an exIOM-LTN regular, I can tell you that it was a full mix of passengers so wouldn't cut into anyone’s existing LCY route very much. I can sit in hope that the route will reappear in the future.

[red17]

Mon - Fri VLM's LCY is scheduled into IOM at 0955 and departing at 1610. according to their website. As they operate nothing else out of IOM this means the aircraft is sat around for about 6 hours!! :eek:

[nospeedrestriction9]

Seymour is often full of hot air with his grand expansion plans and new aircraft but none of them ever come to fruition.

It's all just to keep the staff and shareholders happy.

[Haven't a clue]

Mon - Fri VLM's LCY is scheduled into IOM at 0955 and departing at 1610. according to their website. As they operate nothing else out of IOM this means the aircraft is sat around for about 6 hours!

And the crew head to an hotel to for a rest period. Guess

(a) parking at IOM is a whole lot cheaper than LCY (and cheaper at JER as well 'cos there's another aircraft there all day as well)

(b) the crew gets to work a 12+ hour day thanks to the rest

[Hansol]

Well there's work, then there's sitting around in the Mount murray all day !

[fredtheanorak]

Maybe they should switch to Golf links if its still open.:confused: We used to overnite there on the freight runs occasionally.:ok: Great for an early round of golf in the summer:D

[IOMspotter]

I see Euromanx have now scrapped the Mon & Fri pm BHD post TT from their schedule. Does anyone know if it's running on Sundays still? Friend of mine who was booked to travel was called with a time change to 11am on Sunday. Is this permanent or a short term fix?:)

[EMX81L]

Looking through the online booking system, it looks like the schedule change for sunday is going to be permanent, due to EMX doing 3 services to Manchester on one aircraft, and Belfast and London City with the other one.

I think EMX still want to try and have some fingers in the belfast pie, so will keep it to 1 flight per day to BHD

[IOMspotter]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/05/13/cnhbos13.xml

[red17]

It would seem serious although by now i would imagine the airline, would have paid some of the money back. It could be intresting if the bank becomes involved. I have heard figures of between 35 and 40 million GBP mentioned. Any truth behind this??

[IOMspotter]

I don't believe they can owe that sort of money but I guess the April pax figures will show who's doing well or not? They are still not on IOM website. Anyone know what the delay is or who the winners and losers are?:confused:

[Hansol]

Believe it. I think this is the missing part of the EM story, lets hope the bank doesn't call in the loans.

[San Expiry]

"Just wait till next wednesday everyone, then we will know for definate the Euromanx/flybe plan." That was posted back in February by part69.

'Trouble at Euromanx Mill' seems to be mounting. No announcements, no expansion - and now, PERHAPS, no money. For all those at Euromanc let's hope that all is OK. :(

[Hansol]

Anyone know if the aircraft are owned by the company called Euromanx or have they been spirited into some other company before the ballon goes up?