BA to recruit DEPs on to the 744.

[Hot Wings]

BA will shortly be advertising in Flight International for 40 DEPs to join the 747-400 fleet. The recruitment plan for the forthcoming training year (Apr 01 to Mar 02) is to recruit 60 - 80 DEPs and 100 - 120 CEPs.

The inside word from recruitment is that BA is "desperately short of suitable candidates". Apparently, Birdseed has been having a tough time recruiting experienced pilots on to its short-haul operations, so it has been decided to open up the 747-400 fleet to DEP recruitment to make the job more attractive.

Also, BA recruitment is finding that many potential CEPs are questioning why BA actively recruits graduates, yet only pays secretaries salaries (once you have survived 12+ months on bread and water during your training).

Anyway, for those of you interested in joining the 747-400 fleet at BA, please note that with no seniority on the fleet you will be spending your life in JFK, NBO, LOS and CCU. Add to that the fact that your basic pay will be less than that of a train driver and that your take home pay will be less than 90% of the cabin crew on any of your flights. Did I mention that you'll get no respect whilst you only have 2 stripes and that your managers will be more interested in being politically correct than fighting your corner.

Still life isn't too bad because you'll have plenty of time off in which to pursue your part-time job as a manager at McDonalds (they also pay more!!!).

One final warning is that being recruited on to the 747-400 does not mean that you will stay there, as BA are allowed to re-direct you to any other fleet at any time during your first 5 years. Ask the last batch of 25 DEPs recruited to the 744.

[Harry Wragg]

So a complete 180 Degree turn on the previously stated recruitment policy of promoting to long-haul internally. Find this very hard to believe as their are plenty of my experienced mates trying to get on the 400 but being too junior. Sounds a bit unlikely to me!

[Hot Wings]

Sorry to ruin your day Harry. It is true. The decision was made on Monday. The plan to sell 12 747-400s has been scrapped (for this week!).

[RVR800]

Do cabin crew get 80,000 euros plus for
training?

Its all relative I guess

[BavarianBoy]

HOT WINGS- what is deemed "suitable" experience.. 1000hrs jet, 744 rated? Just interested. I also thought the days of DEP to 744 at BA had long gone. What about guys and gals already in the holding pool or in the middle of selection(if successful)?
By the way, already having to work part time in mickey d's to makeup for crap company!! ok, only joking but not far from truth!!

[Hot Wings]

BB - I would imagine that BA will be looking for 747-400 type rated pilots initially but there are many DEPs on the 744 right now who did not have a 744 type rating when they joined. For most 744 rated pilots, joining BA will involve a large reduction in basic salary.

Under our present pay structure, DEPs are on frozen pay for the first 4 years, followed by 3 years of pay increases to eventually put you on the full F/O pay scale after a total of 7 years. The idea being that BA can recoup their training costs (which is a bit odd if you already have the type rating). If you consider take home pay, a DEP would be far better off joining on the 737 fleet at LHR. If you are in the holding pool you stand a chance of a 744 slot.

I feel sorry for those pilots at BA who have been waiting for a chance to join the 744 fleet. As Harry W has mentioned, this is a complete 180 in policy.


RVR800 - can you please explain the relevance of your 80,000 Euros comment?

[Waldo Pepper]

Come on Hotwings...it isn't as bad as all that...it sounds like your interest lies in discouraging people from applying. Also, BA have had plenty applicants for the s/h fleet, so that can't be the main reason that they wish to recruit long haul DEP's.Sounds like typical BA firefighting to me. Oh, and the cc are well paid on the Worldwide fleet, but its a bit of a misnomer to suggest that 90% will earn more than a DEP...and it's well known that once you're in the company, things generally improve quite rapidly.

[Pontius]

Hot Wings,

What you say about the 744 recruitment is absolutely true, but not for the reasons you suggest.

Basically, with approx 100 Capts retiring from the fleet this year, they are obviously looking for 100 people to replace them (unless they find a buyer for some of the airframes). Cassandra (the internal bidding computer, for those who are unfamiliar) has come up with those people and it would seem they are mostly mostly right to left. Unfortunately for Jim and Co there are not enough people bidding for the right seat (the 777 is far better as we all know, ahem) and this is the reason DEPs will be taken onto the 400. What you say about being junior is so true, that the 777 is far more attractive, especially as it continues to steal 744 routes, hence the lack of valid bids onto the Whale.

My spies tell me that initial numbers are 30-40 slots and that an advertisment will appear in Flight very shortly. Type rated people will be given priority when it comes to the choice between sending a DEP onto the 400 or to the 'Bus.

I'd ignore RVR800, it sounds like a cabin crew v pilot wind up again.

Bavarian Boy,

Regarding the 'Pool'. It is basically empty of all type-rated and experienced pilots. There are a few left who don't meet the current joining requirements, but, as those are likely to change very shortly, more and more people will be swept up. Sure, they're not going to get a 400 slot, but they will be soaked up onto other fleets.

Just for info, the best place to look for the most recent DEP requirements is on the website. If anyone is sitting around waiting for Flight, don't. I have it from a reliable source that the joining requirements will shortly be 'lowered' to >1500hrs with at least 500hrs on civilian transport jets or military fast jets. Once they see the numbers from that, they'll be looking at Turbo-props (incl Hercules) and helicopters.

So things are starting to gain pace again. Now all we need is a decent pay rise and a DEP salary that is actually worth joining for, and the BA World would be a lot better place....with the added advantage of driving up the conditions for everyone else too, I hope.

See ya's,

Pontius

------------------
You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!

[NigelOnDraft]

From the BA recruitment website:

Direct Entry Pilots Vacancies
Please click on the vacancy title for more information about the vacancy.


Direct Entry Pilot Scheme - Hold Pool
(London, Heathrow) Closing date: No closing date

Our scheme offers a world of opportunity for experienced high-calibre pilots who are seeking to develop their careers with one of the most progressive airlines in the business.In an increasingly competitive industry we are looking for ambitious people who have both business awareness and a sustained commitment to the provision of exemplary customer service.We are currently offering positions as a First Officer on the A320 at London Heathrow/Birmingham, B737 at London Heathrow and B744 at London Heathrow. Preference will be given to type rated pilots and to those whose flying experience and qualifications are most suitable to the positions available.

www.britishairwaysjobs.com (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com) and follow the links...

[wobble-head]

This may be more suited to "terms and endearment" but could anybody please give me an idea of a DEP starting salary at BA?

[Hot Wings]

Waldo Pepper - are you a DEP on the 744 at BA? Because if you are you should know what I am talking about. Since I joined things have steadily got worse. Is your idea of "rapid improvement" the 7 years that it takes to get full F/O pay and the full flying hour rate? As there are 24 pay points 7 years on a reduced salary is a big chunk of your time at BA.

You also seem to think that the holding pool is overflowing. This is clearly not the case, as Pontius rightly states. BA is in a hurry to recruit type rated DEPs, yet they expect them to effectively "pay" for their own training by placing them on a reduced salary.

I hope that people think long and hard and ask the recruiters a few more questions before accepting a postion. To paraphrase a recent Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.

NB. The basic starting pay for experienced pilots ie. DEPs at BA is approx. £33,000 (frozen for 4 years). Train drivers at GNER start on a basic of £33,000! Worse still CEPs start on approx £22,000.

[BavarianBoy]

Thanks for the info Pontius and Hot Wings, very helpful and informative. We will all have to wait and see the reality at the time but will keep fingers crossed. Fleets wouldn't really matter but i guess given the choice the 744 would be a great experience. Mind you, at the moment i haven't got that choice but you never know!!
Thanks again for help guys... BB

[Waldo Pepper]

Hotwings...not a DEP,no. And I don't think that the DEP pool overfloweth, simply that there are enough applicants to allow BA to take it's choice. And I don't think BA pilots(new entry esp.) are overpaid...although the £33,000 you mention is basic pay only,and is topped up with allowances, o/t and FHR, there is clearly need for improvement...I'm not a manager. I do, however,think the working conditions in mainline are generally ok...and I speak after 5 years at EOG. We've all of us in this business been shafted at one time or another. Plenty of us lost out through redeployment, maybe that experience taught me the value of stoicism. And for the record, I do think it's unfair what happened to the DEP's originally posted to the 744.
Maybe we'd do better to push for an across the board pay improvement for pilots, rather than fighting our own small battles, however justified they may seem.

[smiths]

Hot Wings:

>>As there are 24 pay points 7 years on a reduced salary is a big chunk of your time at BA.<<

Sounds like a B-scale to me.

>>...Rod Eddington statement, there is no need to improve the pay and conditions for pilots at BA as long as people continue to show an interest in working for BA.<<

Rod Eddington said that at CX, too!

[lekkerste]

Hot Wings is bang on the money. Once you get past the allure of the big jet things really are less than impressive. If you don't mind 5 JFK's and the odd Lagos a month, then go ahead and join. Morale is poor, money is poor - a substantial amount of the cabin crew you will fly with will be earning more than you, and your management will have no compunction in crucifying you should you be unfortunate enough to have things not go to plan. Oh, and before I forget, if next weeks plan does change and 12 -400's do go, then you could find yourself on an airbus in the regions.

[TEMP0+TSRAGR]

I joined last year as a DEP on the Airbus.

I spent over 2 years in the hold pool, no one in that time was offered a position on any type depite being told at interview it would be 777 or 744.

Even during the 2 years in the pool we got regular letters confirming 777 or 744, then after 1.5 years we (about 90 DEPs) were deemed to have 'time expired' and invited down to an 'update interview' during which we were told this is 'pass and fail' (lovely!).... they were out then to see who would accept shorthaul ....
I have friends who were 'failed' at that point, after having passed the full selection and put 1.5 years of their life on hold whilst in the pool .....

At the end of the day it doesnt matter what you fly in BA ... ALL THAT MATTERS IS SENIORITY !!!! TAKE THE FIRST TYPE THEY OFFER YOU ..... you can always change types latter .....

You will earn more and have greater control over your lifestyle on the expanding Airbus fleet than you ever will as a DEP on the 744 at the bottom of the list .......

[AMEX]

Don't know if it is related but yesterday I noticed a new job advert on www.jobsearch.com (http://www.jobsearch.com) It's forBA DEPs although nothing has appeared in Flight International (Usually the primary source) I am wondering what is going on. Anyway, if BA needs people, it can only be a good thing. Still, things can be improved for BA crew and as a top airline BA should know better. (By the way BA 90% of BA CC don't get paid more than FDs. I was clearing about 1400£ on average as most of my colleagues who joined afer 96).
Not working for them anymore but all I can say is that the lifestyle they offer is bloody good.

------------------
If you can't save the engine...save the airframe :D

[maxy101]

I can concur with HW and WP in as much as the junior DEP's (less than 4-5 yrs seniority) do earn less than 80- 90% of the cabin-crew on the -400. I accept that the Basic salary of F/D may be higher but you must not lose sight of the fact that it is the bottom-right hand corner figure that pays the mortgage. In that respect, it took me about 8 or 9 yrs in the company before I overtook the take-home salary of a long-haul CSD (and I was a Captain at the time) However, to quote one our senior Directors " Where is it written down that pilots should earn more than cabin-crew?" And that is the sort of mentality that runs through BA at the moment. If you can put up with it then join!!

[This message has been edited by maxy101 (edited 24 March 2001).]

[Cold Soak]

If they make a mistake... who dies?

[sudden twang]

Just for the record the basic for a CSD is higher than a DEP . Even with a projected command this year to the 744 , if starting again I'd join EK . If however you have little experience the training in BA is first rate especially the non mandatory ground courses you will do so join on a jet, stay for 5 years and apply to EK .

[justinzider]

I have a selection day with BA next month, but if successfull will have to think long and hard about accepting.

It is no longer the automatic choice it once was. 25K pay cut for 7 years combined with being bottom of a very long seniority list with only a potential 22yrs service?

The gap between BA and some other UK operators is closing.

[Pandora]

£22K for a CEP? Yes, but that is before they make the deductions for training costs, which are £3000 per year for the first 5 years. So effectively I have a basic salary of £19k. I can increase the amount of take home pay with overtime, FHR and allowances, but for that I would actually have to do some work. As I have mentioned before, those of us at the bottom of the seniority pile have to beg for the scraps of work from the big boys' table. I have done less than 25 block hours per month for the last 3 months, and speaking to colleagues on my fleet it seems to be a problem endemic in the lower ranks. However please don't let me put anyone off applying - I could do with some other people below me on the list. As TEMPO +TSRAGR said - seniority is everything.

[Harry Wragg]

Cor blimey PANDORA, 19K basic, I was getting that as a CEP in 95. So how come this company still can't make any money??

[Roadtrip]

If the BALPA is so weak as to allow this kind of abusive practice, and they have youngsters flying 74's for peanuts, then why isn't BA beating the pants off of the competition?? Sounds like the senior members of the BALPA are looking after themselves and don't give a **** about the profession as a whole or even their junior members. What gives at BA???

Pay for training at a national airline!!??

YGBSM!!

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 25 March 2001).]

[Hot Wings]

I've just seen the add in this weeks Flight (whilst browsing the mags at WHSmiths - I can't afford to buy my own!).

[exeng]

Roadtrip,

You said, <If the BALPA is so weak as to allow this kind of abusive practice, and they have youngsters flying 74's for peanuts, then why isn't BA beating the pants off of the competition?? Sounds like the senior members of the BALPA are looking after themselves and don't give a **** about the profession as a whole or even their junior members.>

BALPA are doing their best I can assure you, but obviously they can only take action if they have the support from the ranks of their members. That support is growing and eventually BA will be brought to task.

The problem BALPA have is gaining support from the most junior ranks within BA, they are understandably scared. Little by little they are coming on board however.


Regards
Exeng

[lekkerste]

Exeng,

I think a large part of the problem is that no-one in BALPA actually asked me or my colleagues for support, or indeed what I thought about any deal reached in the past. The first I heard about the last pay round was in BA News and I still see red when I say that. Would anyone in BALPA care to reassure me that that won't happen again? If it does and Chris Darke's salary is related to membership numbers, then I would hazard a guess that he will be taking a large pay cut. Had I been asked what I thought of the last disgraceful deal, I would have said 'yeah right!' and quite happily have voted for industrial action.

[Notso Fantastic]

I would encourage anyone thinking about BA to think again. The starting rates are dreadful, and the additional items will be out of your reach for years. Senirity will ensure your pay is minimised, and cabin crew will outstrip you for years (after their 3 weeks training!). There are far better places in the sun with lower taxes, and morale is rock bottom for a reason. Look no further than the saga of Capt. Stewart Clapson and Chris Lankey (on this board) for confirmation that morale is bad and we are run by a bunch of fools! I hope things will start to change this winter, but I won't wait up for it. BALPA is on trial here!

[noblues]

I agree with Notso Fantastic, they make out in the DEP interview process that one should be truly ever gratefull for a job with BA. The reality is their are many other airlines with equal conditions and far better promotion prospects.
BA long haul commands for someone with less than 20 years to run to BA's 55 retirement age are in the extreeme distant future. Bear in mind the average DEP already has >5000 hours and many have commands.

Why at least don't BA put DEP's on SFO scales with a 3rd stripe.

A DEP in BA will be at the bottom of the seniority for a long time, although the bid line sysem is great for senior people it disadvantages the junior.

BA is a place to join as a cadet in your 20's with 30 years left to retirment.

I agree with TEMPO's comments re the hold pool and the recruitment process ..... only BA can get away selecting recruits and then not offering them a position for over 2 years ! AND then re-interviewing them ...
AND then failing some second time around ... AND then making offers on shorthaul when DEP's were told long haul at interview !
BEWARE !!!!!!!

Think carefully about giving up a lot of seniority in another airline, I wish I had thought it through more carefully.

[overstress]

noblues:

I must know you ;)

I would also counsel those thinking of joining BA as a DEP from another company's seniority list.

THINK CAREFULLY!

I'm not sure I made the right decision when I joined BA but you can only change your mind so many times with seniority always snapping at your heels.

I gave up a command course to join BA and it was a 51/49 decision. Were I doing it today, it would probably be 49/51 and I would stay where I was.

[Brakes to Park]

NO BLUES:

What an excellent posting. You are absolutely right. Too many people get their knickers in a twist about wanting to join BA but when you analyse in the cold light of day what they are offering you , in many cases it is..............NAFF ALL.

[EDDNR]

Be careful when comparing current BA pay rates. The DEP scales are in effect a B scale up to 7 years, then you join the main scales with a hefty 7k jump.

BA kept bid packs secret when I asked for sample rosters and the bidline system definitely favours the senior people who fight tooth and nail to keep what they see as their hard earned inheritance.

BALPA are talking to BA to drop the 2 stripe situation because of the lack of respect that experienced pilots get from the cabin crew who see 2 rings as limited experience. I bet the payscales don't change though.

Starting salary 33k, add 10k allowances, then admire your colleagues, same seat, same responsibilities, the senior bidders who achieve 50k allowances from the same bid package. (On top of double basic salary to you and a 50% greater flying hour pay).

As you crawl slowly up the list, watch your colleagues on the outside achieve commands in double quick time. Do your sums carefully before considering BA.

Comparing a BA FO with any other jet FO, BA probably wins. Compare being a BA FO against an Emirates/VS/Other skipper, then I know which I'd choose (in hindsight).

BA offers security though? Not any more. Morale has fallen through the floor in my time at BA.

BA offers a great choice of routes on the 744? Not any more, and not within your seniority band. The whole fleet revolves around the same people going to the same places depending solely on their seniority.

As a DEP, my learned colleague Hot Wings is right, you'll get to see JFK, and plenty of other delightful two crew 24 hour east coast trips blended with the odd Nairobi and Lagos for many years to come.

Think long and hard, dear applicant.

Rod

[Always in Belfast]

Working at BA, I hardly have the time to look at this site, and hence this is my first post. I am so glad to see a post like this, and it consoles me thinking I am not the only one who made a mistake.

I totally agree with ‘overstress’ and ‘Notsofantastic’. Think long and hard about making a jump. I left Air 2000 a few years back to take a job A320 LHR mainline. At the time I was a year and a half away from LHS, but mistakenly thought BA was the Dogs whatsits, and although I enjoyed the type of flying I was doing, it was commonly agreed I had to go, even though I was 50 / 50. It is easy to look back in hindsight and say if I had my time again….., but I certainly would stay where I was. I see my friends from my old company all Captains, and to think I still have another 5 years to get a command here, and I may not even get a widebody command.

BA is a fantastic company to work for – money & lifestyle wise – IF YOU ARE SENIOR ENOUGH to enjoy it. The morale is crap, and many of the guys I fly with don’t enjoy the work.

Think long and very hard about accepting an offer. I know of guys who have politely declined already.

[EDDNR]

Perhaps fellow Nigels can pop over to the BA Forum here and continue the "DDD" (disillusioned DEP discussion) there?

Email BOAC for the password if you don't already have it.

Rod

[normal_nigel]

Its just soooo amusing to listen to junior trash moan. Get a life. try night freighting or air taxi if you think you have a hard time.

NN

[noblues]

normal_nigel - yes tried those, worked my way up through the crap jobs in the indusry.
This argument as about BA attracting DEP's from well established postions in other reputable airlines thinking BA is going to be a whole new world for them ..... which as you can read is not all true ....

I am sure as time goes on BA will find it harder to attract experienced DEP's in their 30's with >5000 hours to come and work for them.

The 'retirement bulge' has been a big carrot for many, but that will not be a reason a few years time ..... the prospect of being 'junior trash' forever is not a good advert ...

[noblues]

EDDNR - the BA forum you have to register your details before you can contribute, many would feel uncomfortable about that .....

Also I feel its better discussed here where people thinking about applying for a DEP position can read the comments and make a judgement for themselves ....

[This message has been edited by noblues (edited 30 March 2001).]

Noblues, FYI you only have to register your real name and contact address so that the moderator can verify that you are an employee and eligible for access. The moderator DOES NOT need to know your PPRuNe ID unless you want to give it. Capt PPRuNe


[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 31 March 2001).]

[Gentleman Aviator]

Many of those on the outside looking in will benefit from any open discussion about terms and conditions within BA.

Going into closed forum may well prevent any 'dirty washing in public' but will be of little use to those who have been enticed by the re-opening of DEP positions.

[Nite_Flite]

NN....JUNIOR TRASH!!!! I hope you don't actually work in the cockpit....with that attitude I wouldn't even let you clean mine.

Everybody has been junior. But trash, is a strong word for the next generation of captains. You see, must airlines don't hire First Officers, but comming captains.

Now, please de-ice my aircraft again...

[BavarianBoy]

Ok, have only just caught up with this thread after posting on it near the beginning! Although very interested in a DEP position at BA I have to say that it is not the "option " it was a few years ago.
Don't get me wrong, i still think BA would be pretty good to work for but why go through all the stages of testing, sim rides, interviews etc to end up getting paid less than guys and gals who have completed a 6 week course for their job down the back. I don't think they are overpaid just that it is unbelievable to comprehend why BALPA and you guys at BA have let that situation happen??
I have respect for cc and the hard job they have but at the and of the day the cost and aptitude for their work is not comparable to an ATPL. As for these stories of 2 stripers being junior trash is horrendous. Why on earth would I give up a command in my present company or a more lucrative move elsewhere to join that?? That is the question I am having to answer at the moment. Why jump through so many hoops for a miserable life?
I know it is another thread but i really think the proposed 30% pay rise will be a must if BA are to attract quality people. Do other national carriers pay their cc more than the pilots?? Just interested to know!

Hmmmm.. me has a lot to think about... let me see... lots of stressful tests resulting in low paid, stressful job or 6week course with a lot less pressure and more money.... or look elsewhere???????

[loaded1]

I posted this section (which I have repeated in quotes below here)in October of last year. Since then things have accelerated downhill. Think hard folks, before you join us. I say this not out of a peverse desire to stop people applying for BA, but to set out how, for me, depressing and sad working for this company is. Self-esteem and self-respect are valuable things too, and BA have a knack for stripping them away from flightcrew.

I am relatively senior in BA, and yet have come to loathe what the company has become. They pursued a 31 year BA Captain over an event where his "crime" was very much a matter of subjective judgement on the day. He collapsed and died. They rip off DEP's who join us with qualifications that they paid for themselves by placing them on a pay scale designed for those whose licences BA have paid for.They ignore agreements with flightcrew at will, and yet crucify anyone of us who steps even a smudge across any one of a set of lines that they change by the week, and they foster a climate where cabin crew openly "diss", (as in "disrespect"), the junior co-pilots, who, never-the-less, are somehow meant to metamorphose into "Captains for the Future" after years in which staff with negligable qualifictaions have earned significantly more than they have.

I would add that I am not exorcising some personal gripe here; I am not a junior DEP or CEP, but an A scale of over a decade with BA. I am sickened by what is being done to new entrants to a profession I chose and am still very proud of having achieved.

Before a tirade of self-righteous folk remind me I can leave if I want to, I would add that, in the absence of very significant change in pay and attitude from our company, I will be doing just that. There have to be more positive mental and emotional climates to work in, and I believe it is worth the wrench of giving up years of "goodwill" invested into the seniority system and the pension to achieve that. It will be a bitter blow to leave a company I was eager and enthusiastic to work for when I set out.

Here's the stuff I wrote seven months ago-it's a sad commentary to see a similar thread to this origional one circulating again:

"I recall someone who came to the A320 fleet in BA from Air 2000, same type. He did fine on the course and line training, but left back to Air 2000 after about 6 weeks on line. Why? He loathed endless gypsy tours around europe with cabin crew who rarely socialised with "flightdeck", and the roster was MORE debilitating than his previous one. 22 days flying a month to make CAP with us, average sector about 1hr and 20 Min and lots of multi sector days. 16 days with Air 2000 and mainly there and backs , home to your own bed and friendly faces on the odd nightstop that did occur in a month.
BA is not the valhalla it might have been. Morale is nil and agreements are under constant threat. Pay cut this year, low rates for new starters, and a culture of contempt from many (not all) managers towards line crew.

Time to command will be an issue for many new starters too.

I would say that our one merit was stability, but with a share price of 2.60 odd UKP it has to be a break-up target on someone's hit list."

[Andy_Pandy]

Loaded1

Sorry but I cannot remain silent any longer. You claim that you will be leaving BA if things don't improve but it would be very interesting to hear from you again after twelve months working for another operator.

I have experience of two other operators prior to BA and while I would be the first to acknowledge that not everything is perfect (funny I have never worked for a company where it is) I cannot think of another UK airline that I would rather be working for.

New entrant pay will have to be addressed in the future if the rumours are correct that the flow of new entrants is drying up but despite rumours to the contrary very few people have left BA although undoubtedly a few have and this in itself is a significant change from past years.

I have numerous friends in other airlines (one of whom turned down a job with BA because he has considerable seniority in Brittania and could not afford the pay drop) and although they have what can be described as good positions when I look at the overall package - choice of aircraft, pension, lifestyle, route structure, staff travel, etc. - I am afraid that BA compares very favourably and I actually enjoy working for the company.

I fail to see how so many of these negative postings that make sweeping assertions and generalisations can actually improve matters apart from frightening off potential recruits so creating a shortage in order to jack the starter rates up.

Actually that's a thought I wouldn't recommend anybody to join this awful underpaid, overworked sweatshop of an airline.

Finally to Normal_Nigel I have read PPRuNe for some considerable time and noted that nearly all your postings are gratuitously offensive and unpleasant. I can't make up my mind whether you do it on purpose to provoke reaction or whether you are just immature. Whichever it is you might care to reflect on the impression it gives to others.

And before anybody starts, no I am not management but just an ordinary 15 year line captain with 6 years to go.


[This message has been edited by Andy_Pandy (edited 03 April 2001).]

[seymore butts]

So pleased to read all this, please don’t take it to a private forum, as to do so would make it useless. I am a captain with virgin express and in need of another job as this one has finished. After reading this thread I will be using BA as a last resort and probably not at all.

Having applied for a few jobs and received positive responses for the majority, (long and short haul) I did apply to BA, received the forms, which are still on my desk untouched.

It appears to me whilst there are still idiots like “normal” Nigel working for BA its not really the place for neither myself nor any respectable professional.

Paying CC more than any pilot regardless of seniority, age, looks, or any other excuse they can dream up is outrages and only adds to the degrading position a new employee would put themselves in. This fact alone typifies the obvious respect the senior management have for pilots and I feel they should try running the airline without us.

Why do people with any experience stay? I can see that the Nigel lovers would not be welcome elsewhere but they could stay as they and the management deserve each other.

[B clam]

Chr1st, is it really that bad. Do the BA posters really know what it is like to do 3 night flights or a "there and back" Luxor. Do they compare a start of the month roster to the one they end up with and see if there are any similarities?
I'm thinking of going to BA and it would be nice to hear from those guys who are reasonably happy. I'm not a "rose tinted spectacles" kind of person and know BA isn't perfect but there must be some contented people!

[loaded1]

Andy Pandy. That's an entirely fair reply. I would merely say the following:

1) I was quite specific about the things that the company has done and are doing to make me feel the way I do, and not trying to make sweeping generalisations. I accept that my response to these events is a personal one and that others may be less concerned than I am about what has gone on and is, I suspect, to come from our employer.

2) I have no personal axe to grind about new entrant pay, as I made clear. I am just sad to see the new entrants to our profession being treated in this way. In the long run, I am sure it will have a deleterious effect.

3) I have some doubts that other operators are now so much worse. Yes, they have fewer types on smaller route networks with a lower limit to their pay scales. BUT, some offer good salaries to new entrants and the middle ranks, earlier commands than we do, and fly less annual hours whilst enjoying positive and harmonious relations with their cabin crew. If I were starting out again and knew what I know now, I would think very hard about where I went in the light of the pay scales and working atmosphere we now offer.

4) Further, I also suspect that the long term response from BA to the "windfall" that our retirement bulge is giving them by reducing numbers on the top rates of pay will ultimately be a concerted attempt to restrict the access to the top salary rates and reduce them as well. I can not see a company that has taken such an aggressive stance on staff costs allowing a pilot salary bill that has fallen in the way that ours has to rise again as the next generation reach those upper levels. This tactic of "capping" access to the upper pay scales has hit the regions and LGW. Where next? A betting man would suggest shorthaul LHR. What are any of us prepared to do to stop it?

I have good friends who fly for Monarch and Air 2000, as well as BRAL, and BEA. Those in the former two are thinking long and hard about whether to leave. I do not suggest they are a panacea, just that things are less clear cut by a long way now.

5) No, I will not be joining another UK airline if I leave. We all know that, after a certain point, a combination of the seniority position and the pension factors make starting out again in another UK airline a non-runner from the opportunity cost analysis perspective.

6) Quite fair to ask me whether I will put up or shut up and where I'll be in twelve months though. As I said, unless we are able to secure a pay settlement that puts us back among the norm for international operators in the Western world AND achieve a better working environment on the back of it, I will follow through and keep you posted! I am sure it'll be a relief for BA to be shot of critics like me.

[Son Of Piltdown]

I am sitting here with the BA application form on my desk wondering whether to bother.

I am presently a Captain with a good scheduled airline with reasonable seniority, salary and pension to look forward too. Rostering could be better but it is a known quantity. I am well trained and have the privelege of flying with great colleagues.

Why should I put my family through the ordeal of BA selection and possible wait in the 'Hold' pool?

It is not for the prospect of a salary increase certainly. By all accounts the lifestyle is much of a muchness anyway. If I am selected I won't be offered a job straight off. The offer will turn up perhaps years later. I may even have a smaller pension. The working culture sounds very impersonal.

I think I'll leave it alone. Its not worth the kudos frankly.

[The Zombie]

Just say No to BA !

[Andy_Pandy]

Loaded1

Thanks for your reply and I can see why you feel the way you do.

I agree with your point that the dividing line between a BA/othe airline career is a lot less clear than it was. This can only be good for us less recruits = rising salaries.

My reason for posting was to counterbalance some of the more extreme views that gave the impression that BA is a dreadful airline to work for, it is not. It may not be the place of old eg gone is the pilots private dining room, Queens Building dormitory, days of sitting in the pilots lounge playing cards while on shuttle backup and getting paid a mint should you be called! We are also working harder than ever before but I still work less than my colleagues in some other airlines.

Son of Piltdown

You illustrate the point loaded1 makes - the dividing line is less clearcut than of old. I had the same dilemma when considering Cathay some years ago. It was shortly after the introduction of the 'B' scale and before the handover. I thought long and hard and then didn't return the completed application forms. Ten years previously I probably would not have hesitated. I made the right decision but it only becomes apparent over time. You have to make a judgement on the best information available at the time.

The Zombie

I hardly think your contribution adds anything to reasoned argument.

[MACH07]

I've just read this thread, at the same time brousing through my DEP application form (which arrived this morning). I thought it might be an opportunity, seeing that there is a snow balls chance in hell of getting longhaul, as part of my companies integration into BA.

The thought of moving from one company where we've been shafted for years over pay and conditions(supply and demand), to BA and being shafted again is just too much.

My eyes are wide open now, and the application form is in the bin!!!!!

Thanks for the insight chaps.

[EDDNR]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">junior trash</font>

Thanks for the support. BA´s forum on Compuserve is filled with the above term and is bandied around regularly along with phrases like S.H.W (short haul w*nker) and separates the "has" and "has nots" in BA.

As I have said before, the guys at the top of the tree fight tooth and nail to protect what they see as their inheritance. Instead of supporting their more junior colleagues, offering them a hand up or a BALPA vote, they´d rather spit on those near the bottom than work together as a common pilot force. The real Rod of course knows this and will apply his divide and conquer techniques.

Fear not low paid DEP´s, when the day of reckoning comes, the fleets will need to be filled with pilots and starting with the cheapest, we can guarantee our security in BA. Gone are the halcyon days I´m afraid.

30% - you´re having a laugh! Lower payscales need it, but the 100k+ pilots couldn´t achieve that much gain, and so you can´t count on their vote.

Rod

[Alfredo_Garcia]

Loaded1,

Sorry to read that you feel leaving BA is now a possibility.

Having followed this thread and read the quality of your postings I sincerely hope you stay. Reasoned, intelligent debate is the only way forward and whilst you may both present different views, people like yourself and Andy Pandy would be sorely missed if they were to leave BA.

Hopefully you're just going through one of those patches that affect us all at some time or other and things will seem different in the near future.

One word of advice - the grass is definitely not greener on the other side. BA has it's faults but they're nothing compared to some of our competitors. Personally I think we have the worst set of cabin crew I've ever seen and I agree that the starting rates for experienced DEP's are a disgrace (Balpa's fault). However, roster's are almost cast in stone and the job security coupled with aircraft choice (eventually) are to be envied.

Don't throw away all the years of hard work for somewhere like the Middle East, the money cannot compensate for what you leave behind.

Regards.

[Pandora]

Rosters set in stone? Hahahahahahahahaha. My month at BA goes something like this - 14 days of work issued on the roster, about 50 block hours. 2 days after roster issue someone gets out the big black pen and goes "subbed to another fleet, given to training, added a trip here..." and before you know it what you printed out a week beforehand looks nothing like what you've got now. Somehow evey month there seems to be a cockup and I end up losing approx a third of my months' rostered work and picking up something else. And I'm not the only one.

Why am I saying this? Because I work on the 737 at LHR and this is one of the fleets advertised. The more experienced bods seem to be saying don't go for long haul, as a DEP you'll be better off on the 737. If you join that fleet you'll be coming in below me and I get done over every month on rosters and allowances.

[Underdog]

B Clam,

BA isn't all bad. I was a DEP on the -400 a few years back and the lifestyle, whilst not great, is not bad either.

On the '400 our rosters are reasonably stable - at the bottom of the seniority list we work hard - 5 or 6 trips a month, 3 or 4 of those will be East Coast 2 crew work. For that you will take home less than most FOs working in any of our Charter companies - after 3 years in BA I still don't earn (most months) what I did in Airtours as an FO.

I don't feel as fatigued as when I worked through summer schedules with Airtours, although this is beginning to change as we pick up more and more East coast stuff. If you join BA you will find that your life is ruled by Bidline - something that BA keeps very quiet until your induction week - it's only then that you find that at the bottom of the seniority list on your fleet you will be assigned work that no-one else wants, the senior guys cherry pick all the high paying and pleasant destinations and you get what's left. This is how it is and is not intended as a whinge - I just want you to be aware that the effect it has on your life is major and should not be disregarded.

Pay-wise the '400 is supposedly the fleet to be on. Again, at the bottom, it is very different - if I stay on the fleet as it is I will eventually earn a reasonable amount as it becomes my turn to cherry pick and leave the scraps for some other poor sap. I used the word supposedly because, as I found out recently, amongst a group of DEPs, most of whom were junior to me (just) and on SH fleets - I found I had the lowest take home salary of the whole group! (By about 4-500 pounds a month) I'm not kidding!

The upshot is, think carefully before joining BA, and think carefully before joining a LH fleet - you will be at the bottom of the pile for a long time. On a SH fleet which may attract CEPs your lifestyle still may not be perfect but it should improve as more junior people join beneath you - and you WILL earn more.

Would I have moved from Airtours given the choice again? Probably not all things considered - but I did move and must now make the best of it - maybe this next pay deal will help - maybe?

ATB,

Underdog

[ETOPS]

EDDNR

Just twigged - did you used to be AYLGR?

As for life in BA, well it's all things to all Pilots. The trick is to find the bit your happiest with and stick with it until seniority brings it's reward. This takes patience as I have found over the past 15 years. When I joined my seniority number was 1925 and subsequently 330 BCAL pilots were added ahead of me putting my back to 2200+.
Now all these years later I am below 1000 and just beginning to see the rewards - would you begrudge me a little cream or should I bid for permanent reserve?

[EDDNR]

ETOPS - Yes, that was me. I had to go and resurrect myself, AYLGR is dead, long live EDDNR!

No disrespect to seniority, it´s just in BA the bidline system allows a highly leveraged gain to senior people, especially long haul, that will not be apparent to new applicants and the image of 120k BA pilots must be put right, either by sharing out the FHR or a 30% payrise.

I´ll get my coat.

Rod

[Chaos]

Underdog,

Many, many thanks for a very informative post. I had absolutely no idea that the 744 was not a major money spinner even at the bottom of the seniority list. I assumed that as a DEP I would be taking home a min of £3200 a month, I presumme this is not so?

Having said that I'll be taking home about £2600 pcm for the next year with about 3 years to go to command with a very decent charter outfit. What would you recommend, stay or join BA?

[Notso Fantastic]

Chaos,
Stay! In a year's time you would be a bitterly dissatisfied person. I'm not up to date with the latest figures, but I think new entrants now are going to be behind an enormous bulge of people now in who are in the queue ahead for command. Many of the them are quite young, and you will not be enhanced. When they get their command slot, they will be in the LHS for 25+years. In other words, allowing for a future industry downturn, the queue for command could well be virtually indefinite. I have no axe to grind- I retire in 3+ years.

[countrybusdriver]

Why do BA bother advertising for experienced type rated A320 / 747 pilots when they are then insulted by having to do the Applitude tests in order to continue. Surely the tests are designed for cadets to see if they are capable of the CAP 509 course.

BA need to drag themselves into this very competitive recruitment world. BA is not the be all and end all anymore, 3 out of the last 4 offered jobs with BA within my company have just turned them down, are they idiots or sensible????

[MissChief]

Idiots..definitely.

[B clam]

Underdog,

thanks for the thought provoking reply. I have a few months b4 I need to start making decisions. I am thinking of pressing for an airbus slot as this is the expanding fleet with the likelyhood of more CEP/DEPs being sent to this. As a result, the chance to climb up the bidding list will be there and more opportunities for a training position (something I am keen on).
I would appreciate yours or anybody elses comments on my ideas.
Following on from this, can any LHR Airbus drivers out there give me an idea of roster patterns/monthly take home. Thanks

[EDDNR]

Hey guys, don't let any of the posts here put you off applying to BA. Surely it's better to have an offer in the hand and then consider options rather than bin your application based on a Rumours website?

Rod

[flaps]

Pandora,

I have a couple of mates who are low on the 737LHR seniority list but don't seem to get it as bad as you. How long have you been on the fleet/in BA to. Just trying to get an idea of the speed of movement up the list?

[Pandora]

Flaps,
reasonably low and sliding backwards due to transfers from EOG, but I'm not giving you any more clues than that. The problem is too many pilots and not enough aircraft, though I heard a good one this morning, that if EOG don't hurry up and give us the extra a/c we need, LHR will try to lease a 737 from Deutsche BA.

B Clam,
on the airbus front, they can't get enough pilots, and from a quick poll among people I know, a typical airbus FO is flying the same amount in 1 month as I have in 3. They are crying out for a rest. It doesn't necessarily follow though that management has noticed this and will put you on that fleet as a DEP unless you are already type-rated on the Airbus.

[Alfredo_Garcia]

Pandora,

You mentioned earlier that your roster bears no relation at the beginning of the month to the trips you actually do. Well you must be in a very small minority because I know of no-one else who can claim the same - or maybe it's just your particular fleet? You then go on to say that the Airbus boys are flying three times as hard as you are each month....simple maths means that you must be doing less than 30 hours a month. What a fantastic position to be in - any chance of swopping places with me? we do 900 hours a year and still get plenty of time off.

[Pandora]

Alfredo,

March totals 26hrs, Feb - 28hrs, Jan - 29hrs. Yes please I'll swap. I have bills to pay.

[noblues]

B clam - After less than a year on the Airbus I am about 1/3rd up the FO list, this will rapidly become 2/3rds within a year. Currently the Airbus has 90 crews that will grow to well over 300 in the bext few years.
We have one new a/c arriving per month for the forseable future.

Many DEP's I know were 75 or 73 rated but were put on the Airbus. Even Airbus rated DEP's were put through the full course again.

Work pattern is typically 10+ days off per month, have had up to 15 off. Work hard for short periods mostly 2-4 day 'tours' doing 2-3 sector days. I've averaged 550 hours a year.
Their are day flights if that what you prefer, but less allowances. Although as the fleet expands it will become mostly tours.

Take home varies from £2600 - £3400, I would say average around £2850.
Note, no allowances during training.
The most 'valuable' trip lines are worth around £1700, the number of these should increase as we get more of the 75 routes and longer tours.

Good hotels, nice new a/c, everything laid on a plate in BA .... Not expected to do manual loadsheets or set the fuel panel here !
Crew transport and pick ups arrive bang on time, all paper work ready on arrival, its a very different world to what I was used to but I still miss my old job !!!

[Frederic]

noblues, where did you fly before?

[Alfredo_Garcia]

Pandora,

My apologies, I didn't seriously believe that BA would be allowing anyone to get away with working that little.

How has it come about? You know what happened to the excess F/O's on the B744, I'm surprised there haven't been redirections for the junior guys on your fleet to the Airbus.

[Whoops]

I would like to ask the BA junior 747 and minibus guys for some advice.
I work for one of the charter companies on a mix of long and short haul...nice flying. The company look after us and I have a lot of friends there. I take home on average £3000 a month inc. flight pay and I have anywhere between three years and five years to command(on short haul). However rostering is s..t and what I want out of life is the ability to live abroad but this is not possible with the charter companies. Money and flying come second to this...my wife works and has the ability to commute within Europe and that lifestyle is what we are after.
I would be very interested in your comments (application form on hold)

[noblues]

Whoops - Depends upon your age and seniority at present. I would say to anyone over 35 to think carefully about jumping ship to BA, 20 years is a good innings to the current 55 retirement age and should see a long haul command in the later years.

BA EOG commands currently running at about 3 years for DEP's, LHR mainline shorthaul about 6 years. Their is still a retirement bulge of close to 1000 pilots over the next 5 years, but after that it slows right down and future promotion will be slow.

If you are not unhappy where you are and think it is secure think carefully.

BA offer huge variety but it is a senior mans airline which many DEP's will never see, plus many fleets are very impersonal a thing I miss from my old company knowing who I was working with ....

[jumbolina]

Everybody thanks very much for the info!!
Was very interrested, currently thinking it though....although working for a almost-bankrupt airline so...
Hey nobleus, are you a DEP, and eeeehm, must sound stupid but what is EOG??

[Cough]

Pandora,

Sounds to me like you are in the position I was a few years ago..No work, no money, but very keen.

It changes....My first year I achieved about 220, last year I got 630 (B4 overtime). Don't worry, as soon as the beancounters see your productivity you will fly more! and I had sooo much roster change in Feb, but we all know why that was.

And whoever asked....

EOG = European Operations at Gatwick
= BA B737 from gatwick.

C......ough

[Whoops]

noblues

Thanks for the info. I am 34 so just (and I mean just) fall into the age group you mention.

What about the ability to commute from Europe...would that work? I have heard about guys living in France or Spain and would love to follow suit.

[Dr Tre]

Whoops - find a BA 744 pilot and ask him/her about living abroad esp. le france. Tons of them live there. Also i know of a BA 777 Cpt who lives in Australia (but i think hes well up the seniority list)

[B clam]

noblues,

ta very much for your time and effort. I am 33 and still 4-5 yrs away from a command in my present company. I think I will give it a shot and push for an airbus slot (if I get thro' the selection!)

Bc

[Notso Fantastic]

Whoops,
In view of your special circumstances and age, BA L/H is a positive step. But, you have to be aware- there has been a lot of recruitment into BA, and the average age of co-pilots is down. Time to command could be long as they will be in those slots for a long time. Commuting works well- many in France, quite a few in Spain, the Oz guy is junior, some in South Africa, one or two in the States. Must be L/H though.

[MissChief]

B Clam, When you attend the selection process, remember to take Licences, Logbooks, Passport, and current Equity Card. A good all-round stage performance is required!

[wow400]

Pandora - bills to pay & a 'vette to import? Never mind, come join us on the minibus fleet - the more the merrier

Regards

Wow

[life's a riot]

Lots of complaints here from DEPs. No one seems to mention the lovely pension and retirement age. If you want to vote with your feet (and please do as I will soon be joining) Virgin are looking for 400 rated guys and you get good routes/earn 3xcabincrew salary/longhaul command reasonably quick/good times down route etc etc..
You start on 40K but apart from a few bucks and plenty of beer down route thats less than you "poor" guys get.
and VS have a useless pension so you are working till you are 65.
love to all

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Life's a riot,

Looks like you've made a decision then? See you on the shuttle.

By the way, the "Northumberland" bit in your profile gives it away as I know it's not me!



------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[Macman]

A mate of mine phoned me 3 days ago to tell me he is joining BA on the 747-400. He has left a job in a charter outfit - has he done the right thing?. I think he has as he has wanted to join BA and go longhaul for as long as I can remember and is well aware of the impending paycut. He will do well over 20 years in BA so despite what I have seen on this thread it sounds good to me. What do you BA boys/girls think?

[EDDNR]

Macman

If he's got 20 years, he has no problem at all. It's the DEP's with less than a dozen years to go that I would be concerned about.

Rod

[Underdog]

Answering posts from various people:-

Chaos,

You are taking home roughly what I do most months, some are better - but I have only broken the 3K barrier 3 times in 4 years and these all involved the equivalent of overtime.

I can't tell you whether to stay or join - sounds like you are fairly young if you still have 3 years to command where you are. If this is the case then you may benefit from bidline (eventually) and the final salary based pension on offer. Don't forget though, there are plenty of CEPs that joined at the age of 18 or so, these are the only people to truly benefit from a long career in BA. I will have done 22 years when I retire and it is still marginal whether I will get a L/H command before I go.

B Clam,

if you are going to apply to BA my only bit of advice is DO IT NOW! Any delay in getting in will push you further down the seniority list and penalise you for the rest of your career.

As a rumour that may have some bearing on whether it is worthwile I heard that the Cityflyer crews will be joining our seniority list imminently. (SP?) If this is true it may well impact on your position within BA. i.e. Are the Cityflyer guys ahead or behind you? With a couple of hundred (I think) extra people on the seniority list - if they are ahead of you it will set you back several years in terms of career progression. Just a thought.

Whoops,

BA certainly has given some the flexibility to commute vast distances and many FC and CC commute from Europe. If you are serious that Money and Flying come second to your European lifestyle then BA is probably worth a look. You may even take home what you do now, or maybe more, as with careful juggling of your days in the UK there can be tax advantages to living abroad. However take on Noblues comments - he is quite correct.

Life's A Riot,

Ref. the lovely pension and retirement age. The retirement age is great - at the moment - there are moves afoot in some quarters to change it. If you don't get your command before the change then count on another 5 years to get the LH seat. The pension is good, as with all pensions, as long as you have put in for sufficient years. BTW the pensionable portion of your pay is significantly less than your BASIC salary! The pension is based on 1/52 x years worked of an average of (I think) the best 3 of the last 5 years worked (not entirely sure!) You can change that to as much as 1/45s with extra contributions. i.e. You have to put in at least 22 years or so to get 1/2 final PENSIONABLE salary (Not the Balpa published pay scales!) Still it's better than many MP schemes.

You say that Virgin start you on 40K - sorry to disappoint but that is around 6K MORE than my basic and nearly 11K MORE than my pensionable pay. If you are joining the 400 you can look forward to net pay of between 2400 - 3000ish a month, although as I said earlier I have only broken 3K 3 times in 4 years.

If all this sounds a bit negative don't worry, it's not all bad. BA offers plenty of opportunities and you can disappear into the greyness quite easily. The route structures are varied and so are the fleets. Just don't expect the grass to be that much greener. (Actually I've just flown with an ex Virgin FO - and he said he should have probably stayed where he was - come to think of it I say that about Airtours ;-) Anyway, as you'll discover, you get to a point where jumping ship - again - is no longer an option, which is why there are so many malcontents within BA.

Anyway All, whatever your decisions, make the best of it.

Underdog.

[Whoops]

Thanks to all that have replied. This just shows what an valuable tool pprune is.

[Capt737AA]

As I have read the previous hundreds of posts on the BA pay thing, one nagging question keeps coming to mind.....

WHERE IS YOUR UNION ON ALL THIS????????

You guys at BA need to get your butts going and show management that you are united in your strength to bring home better pay. I understand you can do "wildcat" strikes over there to "fire a shot across the bow" of management in Europe.....why hasn't this been done by the BA guys????

WHERE IS YOUR BACKBONE?

PL

[life's a riot]

Thanks for that underdog,

As a junior guy on the 400 fleet do you guys find you do a lot of standby?

and is the take home pay really that awful!
and how do you reckon the pay deal being negotiated for next april will turn out?

Cheers then

[Bellerophon]

Capt737AA

In the UK "Wildcat" strikes are illegal, as are the many variations on that theme that one could think of.

An "all out strike" remains legal, providing due process is gone through before hand.

After a little reshuffle at the ballot box (following the last stunning two year wage deal) the new BA team in BALPA is much more aware of what its members want.

Their problem may lie in deciding just how far their members will go to get what they want. A lot of people talking the talk, but will they walk the walk?

Another major difference between BA and AA is that any BA/BALPA contract is binding in honour only! Yes, really!

And you thought we Brits didn't have a sense of humour :) :)

Go Bears!

[Underdog]

life's a riot

BA has a pretty good system for allocating standby duties. There are 3 bands, reserve band 1,2 & 3. Which band you belong to depends on your length of service (not seniority, although it's not far off whilst there's movement) Every time you do a reserve period (28 days with a week off cast in stone at the start) you accumulate points. The number of points depends on your band. The lowest band (band 3) gets 3 points, band 2 get 6 and band 1 get 9 points.

Now, you can bid for a reserve period whenever you like, but you can also be allocated one by scheduling (pre-ops). The allocation depends on the number of points you have. Basically the more points you have the less likely you are to be allocated a reserve period. This means, that the people in band 3 do approximately 3 times as much reserve as those in band 1. Sounds complex when I try and explain it but it's actually quite simple and works reasonably well.

What does a reserve period consist of? Well, you start with a week off guaranteed, then you get 21 days of not knowing what you are doing until the evening beforehand. This includes standby periods. i.e. You may get rung at 5 in the evening to be told you are on standby starting at 6 the next morning; equally though they may tell you they don't need you or they may tell you of a trip they want you to do. As a junior guy reserve periods can be good money on the 400; it's generally acknowledged that any good trips are pushed your way since it's your only opportunity to get to these places. Out of my 3 3K pay packets 2 of them were reserve months!

As a reserve band 3 member you tend to get one reserve period a year; this means that the senior guys may do reserve about once every 3 years.

My take home pay for March was less than 2.6K, a little less than average but not by much. As far as the pay deal goes - I honestly think we may see industrial action if it doesn't improve quite substantially. Part of me worries about it as the company isn't in the best of health - but the rest of me sees the rest of the industry leaping ahead and we must do something to redress the balance. At the moment it's too early to call but I'm sure RE is perfectly aware of our feelings.

Regards,

Underdog

[Direct Turnberry]

With regard to the 320 at LHR, is it possible to commute or do you need to live in the south east.

[Pickled]

Please note that the "take home pay" figures that have been quoted here seem to include allowances. Much of those allowances will actually have been spent down route. The real take home pay is therefore somewhat less than has been mentioned on this thread so far.

This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.

I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of flights that come my way to the US.

The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years (at least). Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn as much or more and certainly work no harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet. I would think very carefully about joining at age 40+.

[Pickled]

Please note that the "take home pay" figures that have been quoted here seem to include allowances. Much of those allowances will actually have been spent down route. The real take home pay is therefore somewhat less than has been mentioned on this thread so far.

This is particularly so for junior guys who often fly to the USA. The US allowances barely cover the cost of being there.

I would also mention that my take home pay now is less than that three years ago on joining. This is due to the cuts instigated by Bob/Balpa and the increasing proportion of USA flights that come my way.

The BA B scale is quite tough for the first four years at least. Friends at Virgin / GB etc earn at least as much and certainly do not work harder. They will also get a command earlier and jump ahead again. BA has much to recommend it, but it is definately a long term bet.

[flaps]

Pandora,

Curiosity...were you at JOC in Southampton Jan 2000? If so we know each other reasonably well?

Someone asked about commuting and the A320 fleet. There are a few guys who commute but mainly from UK domestic destinations. It does mean staying in the guest houses by North Point once or twice a week. The real bummer about commuting at the moment are the Airbus's themselves. Only using A319's to MAN, GLA, ABZ, NCL means they're nearly always full, and by full I mean both jumpseats as well. With the A320/757 doing the routes we used to see a greater variety of jumpseater, say cabin crew from Virgin. I haven't seen anyone except BA people for quite a while....although the new rule compelling those on jumpseats to use the crotch strap is well interesting ;)


Hmmm, who are you noblues?? You're about the same level as me but I don't take home as much. Sounds like you've been working harder than me. Still I've been averaging 90+ credit hours equating to 60-70 ish block hours for the last 3 months.

Granted, and to be honest this to me is a huge advantage, one of the best things about the BA bidding system is that I bid mainly to get weekends off. Over a typical 2 month period (8 weekends) I usually get 5 of the them off.

[Underdog]

Pickled and others,

You are quite right. The take home pay I quoted does indeed include allowances. I should have pointed that out. My average monthly 'spend' downroute is about 400pounds and has exceeded 600 or so. (Easy to calculate; for those that don't know, BA give you a Diners card to withdraw cash downroute and you get the bill a month later)

So in fact I am, at the end of the day, worse off financially than I was at Airtours. I'm only marginally better of than when I used to fly the Shed for a well known NE mail operator!

Regards, again,

Underdog

[NigelOnDraft]

Qwik addition...

I know everyone thinks LH's the place 2 be in BA... However, I joined just over 4yrs ago 757/767, and in that 4 'B' scale yrs was averaging £2.8-3.0K / month take home with Diner's bill £100-£150pm. I personally prefer SH (LH last company), but do 1 LH trip(Nassau, Caracas, Almaty) every month or 2 to remind myself why!

[Pandora]

Flaps,

hello - long time no see. You must be spending so much time on the aircraft I never see you in the compass centre. I see our other 737 LHR friend in there all the time.

Deary me, first Wow400 guesses, then you. I suppose I shouldn't have opened that box.

[flaps]

Think you've hit the nail on the head a bit guys.

Realistic salary should be calculated as:

Take Home minus Diners bill.

Wonder how close LH and SH would be then?

[In the slot]

To all you BA dep's and cep's, I was rejected from BA 8 years ago and would like to thank the interview panel. From my experience, BA is creaming off nerds and "yes men" so that they can maltreat and underpay you as they do. Let me suggest the merits of Emirates/Britannia/DragonAir and even Korean ( if you have a command). The pay at BA is a joke and the attitude of rod means it ain't gonna get better. Good luck nigels&gt;

[DobbinD]

Is it true that STREAMLINE with his 3 ATPLs (no validations, of course) is going to be the new 744 Chief?

[Mister Geezer]

Maybe I won't apply to BA afterall! :)

MG

------------------
Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

[life's a riot]

What I find weird about these discussions is everyone only talks about take home pay.
The stereotype of BA pilots is they are all called Nigel, eat toasted cheese sandwhiches or noodles in their room down route and just talk about stocks/property etc. What is the life like? Is it a drag or to be recommended?I know we have a good laugh in Virgin (whoops does that give it away) with great skiing trips etc and have a good time in the bar with the crew. So even though the money and pension is awful it is a very tough call to leave a good lifestyle for a good pension. Someone write something encouraging please! I keep an eye on the papers and so far I haven't seen any BA suicides...
cheers then, love to all

[Underdog]

Life's A Riot,

The stereotype - at least at the junior end of the scale - couldn't be further from the truth. In fact it more accurately describes the cabin crew - who, it's already been pointed out often earn more than you! Indeed, if I hear one more CC talk about how much money they've made on their 2 bedroomed flat in Brighton I'll probably throttle them ;-)

Don't expect to fraternise too much with the CC downroute - it does happen, but probably less than 60% of the time and you'll have to do most of the running. i.e. don't expect to get invited to 'their' room parties. (LGW seem to be more affable than LHR, but the '400 won't be operating out of LGW as of the winter schedule (LGW = Lets Go Wild, LHR = Lets Have Room service))

Actually, you can be left betweeen a rock and a hard place socially. It comes down to a choice of socialising with the skipper and being bored to death whilst he extols the crystalisation of his pension, or chasing the CC in which case they expect you to buy all the drinks whilst moaning about how much their stock in BA has fallen! Tough Call! ;-)

OK, so people do go skiing occassionally, lots of us African corp play golf and plenty of people socialise enough to use their 5 units allowance (hic). So it's not all doom and gloom.

Just as a matter of interest it seems we'll be operating another '400 next year so maybe more movement up the seniority list?

Underdog

(Let me know when you're next in the Wellington, Riding Mill and we can discuss it properly! Monday on is good.)

[porpoise]

737AA, not only are wildcat strikes illegal but any part of the process leading up to a strike can be challenged in court by the company. Any form of industrial action, even working to rule, and even if the union doesn't endorse it can lead to the company suing the union and sequestrating it's assets. Last time round the company also said it was going to sue us personally for any losses. Personally, I think that was just bluster but enough people bought it to become worried

[jumbolina]

Hey Noblues,
as you seem to be coming where I come from, can you maybe reflect on underdogs comment about the social life enroute(page 7)?
How do they treat our species out there?
Actually, it seems the same as here, it's a flag-carriers disease I guess http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

On those 2-4 tours, are the cc on the same route or is it a split roster?

2night to the best british dest as it comes to pubs and disco's...cc or not, I'll be enjoying myself :) :)
Mazzel

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Underdog........

I think you're getting a little confused! There are two virgins in Northumberland and as yet, I have not applied to BA although the form's on the desk.

A pint or two would be good but I'm off to JFK on Sat. At home 'til then though.

Cheers




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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[noblues]

umbolina - to answer your question.

Its rare for the cc to be on the same 'tour' and also not unusual for them to be on a 'split duty' when you are on a normal nighstop. Now the Airbus is taking over more of the 75/76 routes hopefully things will get better, but I can't see them being on the same 2/3/4 day duty. That would be far too sensible !

The cc have strict union rules, and can lose the following days duty due to a late inbound. Even if its somewhere they want to go ... so they end up on 'avialable' .... they have some very strange/strict union rules that seem to shoot themselves in the foot half the time ....

Most European nightstops we tend to get a 'few' cc out .... but it varies enourmously. Sometimes none sometimes 2 or more the exception the whole crew for a good night.

That is the huge culture difference from my last airline .....
I even find the cc at the rear find it strange I make the effort to talk to them on a turn around. My previous life if we didnt come out of the sharp end and make the tea we would be regarded as 'strange' ... here they its reversed, they think it strange you make the effort to talk to them !

I find all the cc pilot friendly and have encountered none of the horry storys. The one major difference to my previous airline is the average age of the cc, most pursers or CSDs are late 40's early 50's ... they are deffinetly on a better deal than me and will stay to the bitter end. Unlike other carriers where most cc do it for a few years and move on .... although a lot of younger cc have joined in the last few years on an average cc wage and are more fun !

Their are a few 'standovers' appearing in good destinations - in on a late, next day off, out following day on an early. These now in Berlin, Bologna, Milan etc.
The airbus fleet will in a year or so have a fantastic route structure and cover all tyhe major European cities, next year to name a few we get Athens, Moscow, Larnaca, Istanbul to add to about 20 already ....

All said and done, many of the Capt's I fly with are married to cc, so maybe its my aftershave ????

[Underdog]

Shanwick Shanwick & Life's A Riot,

The offer of a beer or two stands for both of you. How's about next Thursday (19th), Telegraph under the arm and all that....? Mustn't let the spies get wind....what!

Cheers,

Underdog
(I'm sure you must know who I am already ;-) )

[life's a riot]

a beer sounds great underdog but I'm now going to spend the next couple of days in washington trying to work out who you are dude!
see you

[life's a riot]

ok ok underdog, see you in riding mill soon.
i'll call, and I'm not going now!

see you

D

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Underdog,

Can't do Thursday either I'm afraid. I don't get back to the village until Sat 21st and then only for 3 days. Send me an e-mail with your number and I'll give you a call.

Life's ...etc,

You must be MAD! There may be no VS at all in a few years. How would you fancy a SIN base again?

Cheers

------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[life's a riot]

well I've gone and put my notice in at Virgin.
Am I insane or not-comments appreciated?

Done it just for the pension really....
Perhaps life was too good to last

Cheers

[twintowers]

Insane. I've just today seen next summer's programme for the 400, all the good stuff (bar a few places you'll not see for another 20 years) is going to the 777. Commiserations.

[Barnstormer]

Twintowers,

Please elaborate! Where are we going next summer?

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Not at all.....

What are the chances of Virgin Atlantic lasting beyond 5 years in it's present form?

If only I could fill in the application. I've gone for Emirates as it's much more straight forward!

Cheers

[FO Nigetrussoxide]

life's a riot - any job is dependent on your own input and attitude. I'm sure you'll be happy at BA, wise choice.

[Speedbird744]

Does all of this bad talk about the 747-400 apply to those CEP's wanting to fly the 747?

[Paterbrat]

Noblues, a quick question if I may. A chap 25 chartering on the 'busses' both long and short haul. Possibly a year to shortt haul command in present company. With all this talk of the possible command bulge building at BA eg big batch of City Flyers coming in shortly, how would he be placed long term if he were offered a place in BA?

[Wet Power]

Is it true that 300 Cityflyer have been given a seniority date at BA of early April 2001?

If not - when?

The answer partly affects whether I go to BA or not.

[noblues]

Wet Power and Paterbrat -

I hate to tell you this but its true !
The City Flyer pilots were merge with BA's early April, still its only about 200 places, sounds a lot but keep it in perspective of 3500 total. Still around 1000 to go over the next 5 years.

Mainline BA shorthaul commands, ie. Airbus, 75/76 are currently around the 2400 mark, so you are still looking at around 6-7 years.
In the mean time you can cruise around the world on longhaul !

LGW commands are currently taking around 3 years, but I guess next year when the ex City Flyer RJ's come into the annual bid it will be much less. You could sit your life out as a LGW RJ or 737 skipper for 12-15 years and then have a long haul command ....

As I have already said, it all boils down to your age. Paterbrat if you are 25 I would have no hesitation in going, you will have 30 years of flying a huge variety of routes and types, plus retire at 55 with a pesnion of 65K.

However, if you are mid late 30's and are leaving a good job with seniority behind then think very carefully, their will be a lot of people above you on the list your younger who will be their to the day you retire.

[High Volt]

Of the world and all the good things in it BA is but a small part.

[Paterbrat]

Oh Noblues would that that were true. Seriously many thanks, it's in line with advice already given but I thought that someone a little closer to the situation might be better placed to give a view that might be more valid than mine.
Safe and happy flying

[B clam]

No blues,

I'm aged 33 with 18 months in RHS of a top 3 charter outfit where the time to LHS is 6 years at the mo. Got BA sim check soon. If I am sucessful will it be a good move?

I'm not interested in the 744 but the A320 LHR.

[This message has been edited by B clam (edited 25 April 2001).]

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Hey Life's a riot. When's your course date cos I've just stuck my notice in too!!!

[life's a riot]

July mate-see you then!

[Antsinmypants]

Yea, just put my notice in to VS (after 2 1/2 years), anyone on a 744 course in Aug?

[The Zombie]

Guys Don't forget that at BA you can be sent to any base, on any aircraft, at any time in you first five years from date of joining!
It does happen. Ask the guys who were on the 747-400 until being directed off. They are quite rightly pi**ed off with direct recruitment now to that fleet and so is BALPA.

The only certainty is you have a master seniority number, but as a new entrant it will be more than 3500.(one big airline)

Also all the City Flier pilots will be ahead of you.

[Hot Wings]

More smoke and mirrors from BA. Potential DEPs are being told at interview that DEP pay is being reviewed and will be sorted out later this year. Also, that you'll join with 3 stripes if you hold an ATPL.

Sadly, the reality is that at a recent company Flight Crew Forum, average pay data for each grade/fleet/seniority was produced. The examples given quoted annual pay up to £8,000 higher than what some of the people at the forum had actually earned. I don't know whats going on - other than some very creative accounting. (I'm sure that the value of the sandwiches at the meeting has probably been added onto my annual income!).

The Flight Operations manager at the meeting informed those present that it is planned to offer managers 3% and non-managers 2% in January 2002!!!! Captains, as senior manager on board can look forward to 3%, as can CSDs (manager of the video library), F/Os (whom 80% of CSDs on recent training courses believe are next in command - after the CSD) can look forward to 2%.

More importantly for those coming to BA. It was stated that there were no plans to improve pay, so long as people keep applying (so why have they lowered the entry requirements?).

My advice to anyone applying, is to take the job but be prepared to join us on the picket line by the end of the year if we have to use our muscle to sort out the mess that we are in.

Question: Is it normal business practice to include the value of business meals, expenses paid whilst away on business, mileage allowance, etc... as part of your annual income?

[Magnus Picus]

Potential DEP's !!!
Stay away if you are over 35


WHY?

There are currently (I approximate) 1500-2000 people under the age of 35 in BA. That means 1500-2000 people will retire AFTER you.

A Seniority of 2000+ will currently only achieve either a LGW command (CFE will change that) or a last on the list Airbus LHR or BHX command.

If you are 30 or under don't hang about with your application and be prepared to wait 20+ years to get a Long Haul command.

If you are between 30 and 35 think long and hard about your current prospects. It'll take for ever to get where you imagine.

If, however, we manage to eek out some serious Pay Rise then ignore this post -

Being junior and (relatively) broke makes most DEP's the greatest whingers known in our company. Want to become one?

------------------
Magnus

[The Zombie]

Magnus Picus,

So True :)

The Zombie.

[life's a riot]

Hey, Ants.... What are you doing about your vs bond?

[life's a riot]

dear zombie!

I was under the impression that ba would try to keep you on a long haul a/c if they took you off the 400 for e.g. I know guys have gone onto the 320 etc but is the general trend to send u on the 777. Also with the qantas 400 coming next year I understand that ba can't get enough guys for the 400 fleet and may have to force poeople off other fleets to the 400. Surely we r pretty secure on the 400 as if ba could have got enough people for the 400 internally then they wouldn't have advertised for deps to go on the fleet-as all of us who waited 3 years for a long haul slot in the hold pool know.

C U

[Incipient]

L.A.R
Oh, how it makes me smile to read the naive logic that new DEPs (as you will be soon) bring to the fleet allocation/ recruitment plans of BA.
There are many of us at BA. who would love to go to Long Haul but because of fleet freezes and current postings having a higher priority, the likes of you can come straight in on LH.
console myself with the fact that in a couple of years, I will go on the 400, and have a load of you new blokes below me, so I can avoid the trash trips!
by the way, ever worked for the North Easts own Airline?I think our paths may have crossed.
regards

[moreantsinmypants]

Hi Life's a riot

Its ants (had to change username, getting too much junk mail). Haven't heard from VS yet re. my bond. I guess it will be in the region of £2700 - should be worthwhile in the long run. Drop me an e-mail and we'll chat.
Hey, Incipient - get a life.

[This message has been edited by moreantsinmypants (edited 14 May 2001).]

[Carnage Matey!]

I don't want to be alarmist but I wouldn't be so sure about that job security on the 400 fleet. A quick look at the Cassandra run this year will show just how low on the seniority list the company has had to go to find people internally who weren't type frozen or short of hours. The 777 is now a relatively senior fleet in comparison, which means if the 400 fleet shrinks its the DEPs at the bottom who are directed off first, and with insufficient seniority for a successful 777 bid directions are likely to be to the 320. Then once your on the 320 you'll have to bid back to the 400 in seniority order, which could still take some time! I wouldn't believe a would the company says when it comes to job security on an uncertain fleet!

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Ants and L.A.R,
I'm paying back 10 months of VS bond and I've asked them to take it off my gross pay over the next 3 months so that :
a) They get the money they want
b) They save money cos they don't pay NI contributions on the money taken off my basic
c) I get tax relief on the money
Result - everybodies happy!!
See you guys on the course at the end of July

[777_Driver]

I am a F/O on the 777 with CX (about 1200hrs on type) and did Second Officer time on the 400

I have 4200 hrs total

Do I stand a chance

Ah yes I am 30

[This message has been edited by 777_Driver (edited 15 May 2001).]

[The Zombie]

777_Driver
Yes, you do stand a good chance IMHO, but check the latest limits and get your name down for selection asap.

Carnage Matey!
"I wouldn't believe a word the company says when it comes to....security on an uncertain fleet!"
....Such is the truth at BA. The goal posts move every few months.

life's a riot
"I was under the impression that ba would try to keep you on a long haul a/c if they took you off the 400"
....They will put you any where that ops. require. Any base, any type in the first 5 years. It does happen, but thankfully not very often.

To you all reading this thread, read closely as the truth is out there. If you are still wanting to join, do it today as seniority is all at BA based on date of joining.
Good luck !

edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by The Zombie (edited 15 May 2001).]

[Winston]

Just out of interest whats the score with the 75/76 fleet. I'm interested in joining a SH fleet and was wondering what the work pattern is like. How many nights away and days off a month is "normal" and what is an average monthly take home. I'm 25 and RHS 75/76 charter with anything up to 10 years til command.

[B clam]

Winston,

the 75/76 fleet is being reduced (esp the 757). There are no slots for DEPs onto this fleet (at this moment nb 744!)
The A320 series is the big expanding fleet with many courses running for the forseeable future.This will be your bets option if you want BA s/h.

[moreantsinmypants]

Di so loo sioned

Please could you drop me an e-mail; I'd like to discuss this bond mallarkey.

[Fat Tony]

Winston

Almost certainly no chance of DEP onto BA 75/76 (although rumour control says we may be getting more 75s on lease due to problems with the scarebus orders...).

For info though, I'm P2 75/76 BA and work pattern averages out at 8-12 nights away per month, 80% shorthaul 20% longhaul. 12 days off per month plus leave/DFW etc.

Junior pilots seem to get more daytrips and earlies,(and the rare chance to see that fine location they call Dharan) ;), senior chaps/chapesses would have more opportunity for longhaul trips/weekends off etc.

CEPs are 757 only for 6 months, DEPs are dual rated from the start. Probably anything up to a year delay for ETOPS training although could be only a couple of months.
Good fleet if you get the chance to put in a preference for it. I'm staying put...

Regards,

Fat Tony http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

[Shanwick Shanwick]

Life's a....

I heard the other day you'd withdrawn your resignation???


Incipient,

I was at north east's own 93-97. Did we meet?


Dissi Loo Shunned,

What have they said about taking your gross pay from your bond? I tried to do the same not so long ago but the Inland Revenue would not allow tax relief on the monies due so there was no saving. You'd be better off giving them a nominal figure as it's "all you can afford." They won't take you to court as it will side with you as long as you're not taking the piss.



------------------
hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

[Dissi Loo Shunned]

Shanwick,
Haven't got as far as Inland Rev. yet but payroll seemed to think it would work. As for the nominal sum, I contacted Balpa legal assistance and they say that the bond in the contract is legal and enforceable.

[NigelOnDraft]

VS leavers...

I tried the "knock bond off salary" with VS a few years back.. but LS (if she's still in personnel) wouldn't play...

So I got VS to give me a VAT receipt - they squirmed, but realised they had to, so at least 17.5% went to HMG. I then put the cost down as a "job expense" on my Tax Return, and the taxman sent me 40% of it back... Of course that was my "self assessment", and he never queried it!

NoD

[Scottie]

I'm just in the process of filling my DEP application in.

I have a CPL but have the hours required for an ATPL. In my present company I'm not going to be considered for a command until I get another 2,000 hours so don't really see the need to spend the wonga on getting an ATPL issued.

However on the BA DEP checklist it states an ATPL is required. Anyone been recently to interview with only a CPL and is in a similar position to me?! (i.e. a tight fisted jock!)

[This message has been edited by Scottie (edited 16 May 2001).]

[Thunder & Lightning]

Scottie

Get your ATPL asap before the rules change again and you have to do more stuff !!!!!

Just a thought in general.
:)

[Barnstormer]

Scottie,

Get your ATPL. If you wanna go on the 744 or 777 will will need it. All co-pilots on these fleets need the licence as you have to be APIC (Acting Pilot In Command) qualified for when the skipper is in the bunk and your in the LHS with another co in the RHS!

Barnstormer

[life's a riot]

Dearest Incipient,

Sorry to sound so naive, or should I say honest...
I thought "the likes of you" was a little harsh-you should really know the facts (if you were being abrasive)-if you don't know the circumstances you make yourself sound naive.
Back in 1989 BA paid for my licence-the Gulf war came along and I wasn't taken on. A few years later I was offerred a job, couldn't take it. Then over the next 10 years I either wasn't in a position to take a job offerred by BA or they turned me down.Finally I found myself in the hold pool and due to personal circumstances decided to wait 3 years for a long haul slot.
So you could say I have done my time on a 'fleet freeze' and with more than 5000 hours on the 747/744 I think I am qualified to be a DEP on the 744.
Also one minute you are complaining that you are being badly treated by the system-the next you are revelling in the fact you can use it to your own advantage to leave me with just "trash trips"!
We are all just trying to get the best we can and most of us are not in competition with others.
Aviation is always about 'right place right time'

Anyway, enough rabbiting on,
Love to all

[life's a riot]

Incipient,
I forgot to mention that I haven't worked from the NE so I guess our paths haven't crossed.

See you soon

[Scottie]

Ok, might as well apply for the ATPL. Anyone know how much our Campaign Against Aviation wants for the issue of the ATPL?

[chequesicks]

Excellent thread; combined with the wise words from a couple of sage old buddies, the preceding 10 pages have helped me to make up my mind. There seems to be more than a majority agreement that joining BA amounts to spending (what should be) the best years of one's life as a deeply embittered junior malcontent, dreaming wearily of the day when, and IF, one may become senior enough to graduate to the ranks of deeply embittered senior malcontents who, it is true, get paid telephone numbers, but sadly are far to old and far too bitter to know what to do with all the cash.
And for all that, it seems that you guys milking the cash-cow get b*ggered around just as much, if not more, than us paupers in charter-land. If this post sounds agressive, forgive me...it isn't meant to be so in any way. I am genuinely grateful for the frankness of previous posts and feel so much happier now that my mind is made up. DEP application form has been filed under "Bravo One November"!

[MaxReheat]

Totally agree. My BA application form will continue to gather dust until such time as they decide to reward experienced DEPs with commensurate pay, seniority and respect.
----------------------
Apres moi le deluge!

[B clam]

NigelOnDraft,

any chance you could email me with respect to the tax return business you mentioned. I may be in a similar situation soon.

Thanks

[Underdog]

Chequesicks and others,

The thing with the written word as opposed to a face-to-face meeting is that both ends of the spectrum get exagerated. Many things that are 'said' on this forum would never be expressed by someone standing in front of you; even if they were, you would be able to tell whether people are taking the piss or not, something not easily done on the forum.

Sure, we have our moans in BA, and many of them are justified; but as a lifestyle in general, the buggeration factor is far less than in any charter outfit. Once our roster is posted it is pretty much set in stone, even through the summer months. Our standby (in LH) is done in a block within a 3 week period, for a junior guy like me this block comes around about once a year - shortly to become once every 2 years. Generally if the company requests that you work a day(s) off it is your choice and they will pay handsomely for your time.


What is true about the recruitment into BA is that it is not easy to find out what your life is going to be like once you're in the company. It's all done with smoke and mirrors! Basically, someone else earlier in the thread hit the nail on the head. Seniority is everything - it determines your lifestyle within BA - as much as the fleet you're on, if not more. What it comes down to is this - if you are even considering joining BA do it now. Do not hold back and wait for a better offer, people will be joining ahead of you. It doesn't matter that you have more experience than a cadet straight from Oxford or wherever - if he joins before you he will be senior to you and have a better lifestyle etc. If you are not considering BA then bin the form and get on with your career elsewhere - there are plenty of jobs out there for qualified, experienced people, make the most of it.

Quick note to Incipient:-

I think I know who you are, if so it pains me to read some of your comments as they come across as snide and facetious. You may not have meant it that way but there you go. If you are who I think you are then you are hardly the most experienced jet-jockey in the world and in any other company you may not even get a look in at the '400. Just sit quiet and accept the fact that you will be getting better trips than some when you do get there - please don't brag about it. You may end up sitting next to one of us in later life - the sectors are long enough - don't make them even longer! :-)

Love and kisses, etc.

Underdog

[life's a riot]

Nice one underdog!

[Hot Wings]

Latest word is that Boeing has now offered BA an exchange of 14 new 777s for 14 of our 744s (to be converted to freighters). BA has until the end of June to reach a decision.

So everything is up in the air once again!

If you are coming to BA you might be better off going to the 777. If you come to the 744 there is the increased chance of being directed off the fleet in the not too distant future. The issue being that, whilst on a course, you will only be paid your basic salary (take home &lt;2,000 GBP). Most people can't afford to do this twice in one year.

Other news is that current recruitment numbers for the year are now expected to be 120 CEPs and 80 DEPs.

[FO Nigetrussoxide]

Does anyone know the current hold pool size?
I guess it will be less than the 80 possible places Hot Wings indicated.....

[Hot Wings]

I've heard that the hold pool is on the verge of drying up.