Cargolux details requested!

[SX737]

Good day to ALL!
Would like to inquire on information about Cargolux:
-Roster/ scheduling of trips-destinations
-days off per month
-annual leave days
-wages for FOs
-years/experience needed for command
-process of recruitment
-general working environment!!!
THANKS!

[NoRulesInLux]

Rostering, Trips:
Worldwide operations.Expect a roster, that will work you to the limits.
Too many days away from home, because management thinks you are only productive, when you sit around in hotels. Being with your family is considered ineffective use of human resources.

Off-days:
Nine per 28 day roster. 6 fixed and in a row. 3 floating, and can be assigned for work by the company.They then are granted in a later roster, or paid for, as you wish..
Union claims no rest into OFF-days, but company resists, leading to a work-to-rule at the moment.

Annual leave 42 days.

Wages for FO´s:
Money taken home is generally ok, due to low socialinsurance contributions and friendly tax-regime in LUX.
Family income depends on family status. Married people take an extra 500 Euros per paycheck.First child ~120 extra ,and any further child 75 Euros, due to tax reduction.
Luxemburg has a so called index on salaries, and allowances paid by the state. Whenever inflation makes a 2,5% step, you get this as a payrise, by law.
Last indexes given in Oct.2004 and again in Oct.2005 due to the price of oil.

Family allowance of ~185 for one child, ~440 for two, 768 for three children. However, don´t overdo it with the number of children, because you will not be around home too much, to see them and assist your partner in their upbringing.
If your wife gives birth, there are more allowances from the state.

Don´t worry about qualification for command, by the time you get there, you will be qualified.I think present upgrades joined around 1998/99
After fast expansion, that has given some great career opportunities, things have slowed down.
If you join now, you will have around 170 FO´s ahead of you, total number of pilots around 350 and rising.
Pace seems to pick up again, and the outlook is positive, with the 747-8 being expected from 2009 and some business for Boeing with the LCF.
Rumours about more airplanes before 2009.
Recruitment is ongoing. Selection by interview, and psychometrical testing carried out in Germany, at an institute , run by the company doctor.
For details check on www.cargolux.com.

The working environment is friendly, relaxed yet very professional.
Training and sims are professional and fair.

At this time , a work-to-rule is in progress. The main reason is, the pilot community feels rostering and rest has a reached a level, that is not bearable in the long run. Management is expecting to squeeze even more out of us.
If the present conditions deteriorate further, joining is not a good idea, because you will not be able to stand this for the length of a career.

The problem of fatigue has been recognized by the company, and they say they want to do something about it, through a project with the participation of experts on the matter. However, seeing the unwillingness of
management to talk in the present negotiations, I am cautious. This year will be decisive for the future of working conditions in Cargolux.

[SX737]

Thank you so much for your very informative reply NoRulesInLux!
I have one last question!
Please state the average monthly FO salary.
Thanks again!:ok:

[luxfreight]

Depending how you're rostered but I believe that a FO can can normally count on earning just under €5000 plus the per diem. There is a 13th cheque and profit share as well.

[mtnflyer]

thanks for the great reply.are there many commuters at cv,for instance the uk,ireland,and is it possible with the roster?

[nose door]

yeh, there's a few... but if you commute from the UK, u might get away from "big brother" but you'll have "Uncle Gordon, and his band of merry men," on your back for his due's....and believe me they don't give up!!!!

[mtnflyer]

thanks for the reply.sorry to show my ignorance,but as i haven't lived in the eu in years,i presume you are talking about the internal revenue people..?does the fact that you are away a lot of the year not give you relief,or do you have to pay taxes in both lux and the uk?
do you work for cv?
mtnflyer

[SX737]

Does anyone know if Cargolux sponsors living expenses, especially if you choose to commute(ex. hotel room or small apartment)? Is there somekind of help for accommodation? How is social life in Luxemburg?

[CR2]

737azf: To the first part, I believe not. Commuting is your affair, not the company's. You'd get company rates at hotels at best. People who commute before flying, then complain of fatigue are frowned upon.

Social life is so-so. If you're coming from a big city, then there is the equivalent of sod-all. Of course you'll find/be shown what there is.

[SX737]

Thanks CR2!
If someone chooses to rent a small but nice apartment what would be the monthly cost (rent+utilities). Would Cargolux be willing to sponsor all or some of those expenses?

[tom de luxe]

Thanks CR2!
If someone chooses to rent a small but nice apartment what would be the monthly cost (rent+utilities). Would Cargolux be willing to sponsor all or some of those expenses?
#1: For "small but nice" read 2 bedrooms? Nice apartment or nice area as well? In LUX-Ville proper, or would Germany or France with around 30 mins commute (by car) be fine (living in Belgium near LUX, i.e. aound the city of Arlon is, by definition, not nice, and thus out of the question)? You see, the place you're looking at could cost anything from EUR 2000 plus /month in LUX-Ville to EUR 500/month on the German side of River Moselle (or possibly less in the Hinterland).
#2: As has been said before, your living expenses are usually just that - yours. You can always ask, mind you...

[Bird flu]

:hmm: CV pay for living expensesfor a "nice app"in lux...
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha........
oh dear...hahahahahahahahahaha, best u try cathay.....haven't had such a good laugh for a long time......

[GreekPilot747]

Many airlines mainly in the Far East, and the Middle East do have free housing, education, or allowances for that.
However such a thing is not foreseen at Cargolux.
Some contract-captains I think have hotel accomodation included in their deal.
This is not available for employees.
I think tom de luxe is about right with his numbers. Housing in Luxemburg is very very expensive.
Living across the border is an option though. Since most of our flying takes place around the globe, the number of drives to the airport is quite limited, so a 30 minutes drive is absolutely acceptable. You are looking at 2 to 3 departures from Luxemburg within a roster.
If you share a place in Germany with another pilot, you may bring the cost further down, and for most of the days, you will have the place for yourself, since the other guy might well be flying.
For you guys that are considering becoming expats, the deal in Luxemburg is different from the asian carriers. You do not have the housing and school allowances.
What you have though is a european retirement system, that will consider insured times from other EU countries. When you retire, you will still have health insurance as a retiree. For someone coming back from overseas, that might not be the case, and then you start spending a lot of the money you made, to get insurance.
Just to repeat what CR2 has written above:
Commuting is your choice and your responsibility. You should have a place to rest before the flights, and you are supposed to show up well rested for a flight by law.
Showing up tired, for a long flight with augmented crew, and expecting to get the first rest, will not get you too many friends in the long run.

[on the run]

I started with CV in 2005. :)
I have all respect for what the older guys say about working conditions etc. They should know. They have been around longer.
But for me it's a dreamjob. One has to remember where you come from. Guess that's very individual. I flew five years in a European airline, shorthaul, and that almost killed me. With CV I have more days off, much more vacation, and it's more relaxed, never any stress, and you 'normally' get at least one day at destination, sometimes longer, up to a week. I was used to four sectors/day with stress stress stress and slots, and busy airports in Europe, and always minimum rest at destinations.
Just for your info. One job could be very different for different persons.
Regards,
on the run with pink floyd

[SX737]

Thanks GreekPilot747 and on the run for all the posted info!
I probably do have a bit to go till I get the hours to apply but I am gathering all available info that I can.

[burgerking]

I started with CV in 2005. :)
I have all respect for what the older guys say about working conditions etc. They should know. They have been around longer.
But for me it's a dreamjob. One has to remember where you come from. Guess that's very individual. I flew five years in a European airline, shorthaul, and that almost killed me. With CV I have more days off, much more vacation, and it's more relaxed, never any stress, and you 'normally' get at least one day at destination, sometimes longer, up to a week. I was used to four sectors/day with stress stress stress and slots, and busy airports in Europe, and always minimum rest at destinations.
Just for your info. One job could be very different for different persons.
Regards,
on the run with pink floyd
@ on the run: are you sure that you are employed as a pilot with CV? ;-)
I wish I could say the same after about 7 years with CV. What I am seeing lately is a lot of back to back trips, meaning a long trip with often minimum rest at destinations then one! day off before you go on another let´s say 9 day trip. No regards for time zone changes health etc. That is a lot of stress and a burden on your social life as well. Even living in LUX doesn´t help with rosters like that. Granted, it was better until about 2 years ago before some changes were made to the management structures in the relevant dept.
btw.
Productivity (block hours in our job) has not changed much - just less days at home to satisfy some office folks dislike of pilots.
If it was so great why would far more than 90% have approved the zero tolerance action in effect right now?

[on the run]

@ on the run: are you sure that you are employed as a pilot with CV? ;-)
I wish I could say the same after about 7 years with CV. What I am seeing lately is a lot of back to back trips, meaning a long trip with often minimum rest at destinations then one! day off before you go on another let´s say 9 day trip. No regards for time zone changes health etc. That is a lot of stress and a burden on your social life as well. Even living in LUX doesn´t help with rosters like that. Granted, it was better until about 2 years ago before some changes were made to the management structures in the relevant dept.
btw.
Productivity (block hours in our job) has not changed much - just less days at home to satisfy some office folks dislike of pilots.
If it was so great why would far more than 90% have approved the zero tolerance action in effect right now?
Burgerking,
Again I would like to say 'I have all respect for what the older guys say about working conditions etc. They should know. They have been around longer.'
And I know via frieds how the roster was more than two years ago. It's difficult times for the company, a lot of things have to be sorted out. Yes, 90% speaks for itself.
But what I am also saying, which was my point, is that one has to remember where you come from. For me this job is so much better from my previous. But that is very individual. For me that's a fact, for others not.

[burgerking]

O.K. I see your point. Was your former airline a lowcoster like ryanair or similar?

regards, burgerking

[on the run]

Yepp, something similar.
Best regards!

[PrettyBoy]

On the run,

I'm glad you are happy in Cargolux! Having just started I'm also sure that you are still excited about flying big shiny 747's to exotic destinations. Be careful though, just because you used to work for slave drivers before doesn't mean that you should let this job get diluted as your previous colleagues did. We are trying to make sure that this remains a good job for years to come, without hurting the financial well being of the company. As it is now it has become devastating for the family/social aspects of our lives and some duties even close to being dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, this is still one of the best companies to work for. All we have to do is to tweak it here and there to make it great! Support this measure and you will benefit for years to come.

[Buster Hyman]

I could think of better places than AKL to have 5 days off though...:ugh:

[CR2]

Hey Buster, wots wrong with AKL? They have sheep...
Ps, FNG in Mel seems alright. Bigger than you too :)

[Spenda]

Is it possible to deadhead on company aircraft? I ask because I am wondering if I could commute from YYC. Any 5 day layovers in YYC?

[acmi48]

ref cv x on a happy note some of the most outspoken opponents on the companies work rest and play policy have, and have had ,20 plus years service with the airline. while there shud be no comparison between the 1970's and today due to progress ,things have moved along quite nicely for all.

[Buster Hyman]

Don't worry Ratty, I'm sure there's plenty of sheep for you...:rolleyes:

FNG??:confused:

BTW...Did you ever send that "package"??:confused:

[CR2]

New guy doing your old job with us.
Nope, didn't manage that. Sorry mate.

[Buster Hyman]

No worries Ratty...I thought our "mate" might have been playing "funny buggers"!;)

Well, I give him 12 months unless the afore mentioned mate moves on first!:(

[sonnyd]

Does Cargolux allow jumpseating by pilots of US carriers?

[Buster Hyman]

Ratty. I see they're advertising again! Your new bloke moved on already huh?:p

[luxfreight]

No jumpseating to anybody not affiliated to Cargolux. Which is a bit of a bind when it comes to us flight deck needing a ride with somebody else.:\

[superpilut]

...so will cv take in some of the ex AAI guys, since there's still a need and there's 74 rated pilots becoming available? It would suck if they'd stop hiring non-type rated guys.. Rat, what can you tell all those hoping to enter without a rating?
Cheers.

[CR2]

Not my balliwack superpilot; CV can issue ratings, more than that am unsure on. Have a look on the webpage, there is some blurb about it.

[Flightwatch]

Latest news on Cargolux recruitment is that they are urgently requiring more pilots.
In the unlikely event that there are any B744 type-rated F/O's out there looking for a job the start date is yesterday. JAR licence required for permenant employment but FAA etc. licences acceptable for contract work, just a full initial JAR medical to be completed.
For permenant employment details on the Cargolux website and for Contractors direct with the Chief Pilots office.
Any takers?:ok:

[okap]

hiring is still ongoing- good chance for one more aircraft in July 2006, and one in 07 ,one in 08 guaranteed. In 2009 th -8s will follow, in other words, yes hiring will continue, the strict minimum hrs as per ops manual is 15oo hrs !!!

good luck guys, but be aware thst the current work environment is not the best.

rgds

[SX737]

I have about 1500 hours on the B737-300/400 and about 1800TT. Cargoloux is requesting 2500TT and I see on the interpersonal site that the positions for FOs are only 10 now.
Do I need to wait for the 2500 hour limit or will they accept my application as such????? Will recruitment really continue??? Does having a university degree make a difference?

[luxfreight]

737azf, I wouldn't give up just yet. If you live close to Luxembourg or are prepared to move to Lux - you may stand an outside chance. From what I heard I heard lately, recruitment is on going and will be for some time. If your really commited to getting into Cargolux - show the personnel department how commited you are, keep applications arriving on their door step. Good luck, it is well worth the effort.

[klink]

:uhoh:
And: No, these guys are not flying for LUXAIR (which ocassionally seems to have a negative impact on the outcome of applications sometimes).
Cheers,
CTS

Ehm... occasionally it doesn't. I think that during the last 30 years 6 were "allowed" to swap.

Which makes me think; what would you prefer FO 737 with LG or FO with CV?
Currently hardly any promotions within LG, so stuck on that seat for at least another 8 years.:{ Salaries will be frozen for the coming years.:{ "Promotion" thereafter to whatever RJ or TP they will have.:uhoh: Then fly 4 legs a day, 20 days a month, with anything but optimized turnarounds; so lots of duty. (Even FR schedues look better) :(
..But you're at home in your own bed every night.

Or CV, where you'll make a little more money, a brighter looking future, more interesting destinations, but where you're on the road a lot (if not the whole time..):ooh:

[luxfreight]

Let me dump some water on your pessimism and show you some realism behind my statement.

I have just flown with a colleage of ours who put his first application into Cargolux in 1988. He finally got into cargolux in 2002 after putting 3 to 4 applications in every year.He now lives in Luxembourg and you can't get the smile off his face (and he didn't come from a low-cost to get here). By the way I was LOT luckier I only had to apply once.

In +/- 2weeks time we will receive and extra 2 cheques in our pay envelope whilst a lot of other airlines including Luxair are struggling to keep their heads above the water. If you work out exactly how much you worked in the last year, you'll find out it was about 6 months all in.If you worked more than that you where selling something and you have yourself to blame.Not bad really and I accept that the rostering can be a little off colour sometimes - but hey - you got to take the rough with the smooth, we both have to work for our money sometimes.

I suggest that your mates are not making it into Cargolux because - interpersonal (who ever he is)- sees in them what he missed in you i.e. the whining trait that is dragging the our easy going company attitude into a pit.

I challenge you to find another job in Europe with the conditions and pay that you have here at Cargolux. When you do- go - you will find out that it is never to late.

LF

[Jungleland]

Heard on the street that Luxair will lay off quite a few pilots, and that Luxair and Cargolux would 'make a deal' to take over 30 of them into CV ops. Is that somewhat true?

Also heard by someone calling interpersonal that they are very busy this year, and will have interviews every week all year, but as well see no end of it. Looks good. But do Luxair pilots have to go through them and IBF, or use the fast lane?

/jungleland

[klink]

@ LF
Hey, I already thought you meant me!:}
But I don't think CTS meant it that bad, or is he always like this?

Jungle: nobody will be laid off.
Early retirements, voluntary moving and parttime should do the trick.
Nothing confirmed re LG-CV deal, although some are trying very, very hard.

[CR2]

Jungleland, I heard the same. LG will be selling 2-3 aircraft depending on who you listen to (2 x 73, 1 x JungleJet).

Crews to join us.

[klink]

2 737-500 sold already last year, for the moment leased back.
1 145/135 to be sold. The rest is still unclear (fleet renewel etc...)
30 pilots less seems a lot, though. Don't think it's realistic..

Normally everyone went still through the company specific selection. Lets hope so for CV.

[cargoflyer]

"A little off-topic", but thats what you find on their homepage about this :sad:

Essential repositioning of the Airline

The project "Building a new Airline"

The project "Building a new Airline", which should allow Luxair Airline to reach a financial break-even by the end of 2008, has now entered its decisive phase. Luxair Airline registered a loss of 12 million euros in 2005. If no concrete measures are taken, projected results by the financial year 2008 would amount to a loss of over 21 millions euros. These losses might become even more significant if, for example, additional competing airlines take up business at Findel airport or if oil prices continue to rise. Such an accumulation and increase of losses not only jeopardize the Airline activity but Luxair S.A. as an entire company.
The project “Building a new Airline” aims at taking the necessary actions which will enable the Airline activity to reach a financial break-even and become profitable again by the year 2008, and which simultaneously guarantee the viability of Luxair as a major market player in Luxembourg and the Greater Region.

Improve commercial effectiveness
A series of measures aimed at cutting costs and increasing revenue is currently being implemented. Their objective is to improve commercial effectiveness by redefining the fare structures, by boosting the development of e-commerce and related products such as e-ticketing, by elaborating a commercial policy with enhanced focusing on customer needs, and more.
Simultaneously, a large cost cutting programme not linked to payroll is in the course of being implemented, including the renegotiation of contracts with service suppliers or the optimisation of production and strict cost monitoring.
In order to consolidate the existing markets and to capture new market segments, Luxair is also negotiating commercial agreements with other operators with a view to concluding code share agreements, following the example of the cooperation with Alitalia started recently for flights to and from Italy.

Additional measures to ensure the viability of the Airline
However, these sole measures will not suffice to make the Airline activity a viable business.
In order to improve the financial situation of Luxair Airline, a consistent increase in productivity and a reduction of the number of destinations served, as well as the restructuring of the fleet are deemed essential.
As these measures are bound to have an impact on payroll, Luxair will have to operate a progressive reduction of staff numbers, cutting about 200 jobs by the end of 2008.
Simultaneously, a freeze of salaries, applied to the entire company for the period 2007-2009, will allow Luxair to make the necessary extra savings.
With a view to implementing these extra measures, the Board of Directors, in its meeting of March 31st, 2006, gave a mandate to Luxair Management to inform and consult the Luxair Joint Committee and the social partners on these measures.

Reduced number of Luxair destinations
Luxair intends to adapt its route network to the economic realities and to the competitive environment as of the winter 2006 schedule. This entails giving priority to those destinations which have real potential and to those which are strategically essential such as London, Paris or Frankfurt. Several destinations which are currently generating heavy losses will be abandoned and there will be fewer flights to other destinations.

Restructuring of the fleet
Efficiently operating the new network of Luxair destinations will also have repercussions on the structure and size of Luxair’s future fleet. Luxair is considering e.a. the introduction of an aircraft type with 70 to 90 seats and has therefore asked for price offers with constructors such as ATR, Bombardier and Embraer.
At the moment, an option considering a fleet composed of 12 aircraft is being finalised and the final decision as to the new fleet will be taken at the beginning of May 2006.

Improvement of productivity in general
A consistent increase in productivity should enable the Airline - and Luxair in general – to optimise its production processes. Productivity gains will be negotiated as part of a discussion to renew Part 2 of the Collective Work Agreement for Employees applicable to crews, and will also be obtained as a result of specific measures within the different departments of Luxair S.A.

Reduction of staff numbers
These measures, designed to safeguard the future of the Airline and thus of Luxair, will have a knock-on effect on staff numbers. Luxair Management estimates that about 200 jobs will have to be cut by 2008. Job cuts are not an end in themselves but an unavoidable result of the steps to be taken in order to guarantee the survival of the Airline and of Luxair.
The job cutting programme will be applied progressively by the end of 2008 and comprises specific measures to operate this transition in a socially acceptable manner: freeze on recruitment, early retirement programme, staff encouraged to take early retirement, financial incentives for voluntary redundancies, part-time work or job transfers. All these measures are currently the subject of talks with the social partners.

Freezing of salaries
Luxair intends to freeze the salaries of its entire staff from 2007 to 2009 in order to enable the savings that are essential to the company’s future viability. Salaries will of course continue to rise in line with the index.

Social dialogue and information of staff
Luxair will continue its policy of information and transparent communication on the project “Building a new Airline”. The dialogue with social partners and Luxair staff will remain Luxair’s priority.
A first discussion with the Joint Committee and the social partners took place this morning, Monday April 3rd, 2006. Two special staff briefings for Luxair personnel are scheduled for this week, resp. next week.

A new Luxair in 2008
Luxair trusts that by 2008, the project “Building a new Airline” will be implemented successfully. Luxair firmly intends to become a benchmark company at the service of the population in Luxembourg and the Greater Region and to stand out a socially responsible employer.

Press contact: Marc Gerges, phone (+352) 2456-4026

[klink]

Problem is, thestaff being cut are the ones elegible for pre-pension.
So you still have ofices full of people who don't add any value to the company.:hmm:

[Jester146]

Assessment will take place at IBF in Saarlouis, Germany.

After a medical, you will pass approx. 6hrs behind a computer doing all kind of tests. Some of the typical IQ-questions, some coordination, concentration and multitasking excersises. And a lot, I mean A LOT of personality questions. (Are you a violent person? Are you shy? Do you believe in some sort of supernateral-scientificly-nonexplainable force? ...)

So basiclly not much you can prepare for apart from having a good nights rest the night before ...

Enjoy!

[MrPilot28]

Hi Mate,

just wonder if you where at the IBF already? I am going over there next week, so maybe you got some nice information?

Take care and hope tp hear soon

-M-

Hello,
What's strictly involved in the "Full Day Assessment" at Interpersonal's premises for the CV first round of selection?
Any interesting details?
Regards,
SNAM

[MrPilot28]

Thanks for the answer, SNAM.

however, sorry for not being able to help with further interview details. I am at the IBF, but not for CV anyway.

Good luck!

[loulou]

here's the machine wich gonna make you sweat :)
http://www.ibf-schwan.de/psy5.htm

[interpol1977]

Hi all,


New on this forum and actually quit interested in a different job then where I am now...

Cargolux so far doesn't sound too bad, pay is good, annual leave seems ok and rosters are allright...

At least that's what it looks like in an overwiew, more detailed:

-If you apply for annual leave do you always get the dates you want or does it go on seniority or something?
-any chance somebody could email me an example of a monthly roster?
- and how far in advance do you get the roster?
-do most of the guys live in luxembourg or over the border? What about tax issues if you indeed live in germany? Double tax?

That's it so far..thanks in advance for your answers!

Best regards

[Jungleland]

This should be somewhat correct, as far as I understand from people that've been there, done that.

1) Pre-screening by www.interpersonal.de. Basically all the paperwork that the HR dept used to do.

2) Invitation to IBF, a full day. Short medical, computer 2 times 3 hours, followed by a short interview with the Dr.

3) Invitation to CV HQ, interview with chief pilot and HR rep, personality questions.

The whole process: no tech questions, no sim.

/jungleland

[Otto Matic]

Hi guys,

new to this forum as well. Does anyone know how long the wait is between the acceptance of your application to assessment date? Is cargolux still actively recruiting?

Cheers.

[littlejet]

Will Cargolux HR invite for an interview to FO allready rated on 744 but without EU passport and JAR licence?

[rwy24c]

I'm afraid they won't.

[klink]

from www.cargolux.com:

Other Requirements
- Total of 2500 hours flight time of which 1000 hours on jet aircraft.
- Or total of 3000 hours flight time of which 2000 hours on high performance turboprop or jet.
- Full JAR ATPL license with MCC qualification.
- Valid medical certificate
:hmm:

[luxfreight]

I heard yesterday that recruitment is on going for the forseeable future, just keep trying and good luck.

[klink]

Depends on type experience.
If you have less then 600 hours on type; you are in a certain scale.
After these 600 it depends if you have more or less than 3500 TT.
These are 2 diferent scales.

[Jungleland]

Total time is not really important, as I understand it, since CV take people with around 3000 hrs anyway, some of them much more.

During training (3 months), you get about €3000. After that, with less than 600 hrs on type you get about €4000, then with 600 hrs on type (and more than 3500TT) you get to the 'normal'/'senior' FO payscale, which is even much better. Plus allowances of course.

If you join with 10000TT on the B767, as far as I know, you will still follow the payscale described above, from year one.

Regarding selection, they hire a lot now. The selection in Saarloius is running even weekends according my source...

[emergency descent]

Your salary depends highly on your maritual status. If you are married, you will start with about 450 Eur. net more. For each child another approx. 100 Eur. net.
Trainees salery will start at your first training day at CV and will end with your supervision check ride. Accomodation during initial training has to be payed by yourself.

[klink]

But gross is the same, no; whether you're married or single?

[emergency descent]

Yes, gross is the same for all. Only the Lux. tax index changes. If you start now, gross will be arround 3000 Eur. as a trainee. As a junior F/O approx. 4100 Eur + shift supplements + expenses...

[klink]

no agreement in place yet
if its going to happen it will be surplus pilots
there's not a whole lot of pilots too many; perhaps 10? probably less
no conditions are known yet
I expect no special treatment; so yes, people crossing over take a financial step back for a couple years
Everyone has to pass the normal selection required for CV recruits

[pilot197510]

If you look at the website of CV their minimum requirements are different from those of interpersonal (who's doing the initial screening). If I recall it correctly Cargolux didn't mention high performance turboprop as relevant experience in the past few
years....

[klink]

I think there was only a weight restriction; i.e. MTOW 21000 kgs or something like that.

[pilot197510]

Yes, 22000kgs was the lower limit, all jet though...now they publish on their site that 3000hrs including 2000hrs high performance turboprop is acceptable as well...but is it realistic?

[rwy24c]

Gentlemen,
I would like to point out that although Cargolux is hiring now and will be hiring for the foreseeable future it is very unlikely that you will get in with the minimum requirements only posted on either website.
Since the age-structure of the pilot group is not ideal - the majority of pilots (Cpts and F/Os) being in the range of 30 - 40 yrs of age - I could imagine that Cargolux is now looking specifically for young F/Os with lots of jet experience (i.e. B737 upwards or Airbus).
Good luck!

[klink]

2 LG 737 FO will start with CV in September.
No special conditions/deals/favors re. Psychotest etc.

[methanol]

any age limit ?
I'm a not so young pilot (52) with 10 800 h including 800h on the 744...:)

[stg]

Hello


On interpersonal.de I found the following new requirement for Cargolux:

*** Attention:
It is essential to be ready to take residence at or around Cargolux home base in such a way, that duty at home base can be started within 1 hour when called out !

Does anyone know if this applies only to standby duties? Otherwise this would make it impossible to commute from other places in Europe.

Link: https://www.interpersonal.de/site/mm_jobseeker/vm_searchjob/am_show/jo_10036/

[CR2]

stg

What some folks do is position in country the day before and stay in a hotel for the night, alternatively come to a flat sharing agreement with colleagues. Staying just over the border in eg Trier is somewhat cheaper than Luxusburg.

Call out is 2hrs10mins before departure, check-in to ops 1 hour10 before departure, so you'll be a bit pushed to get from CH to LUX in an hour...

[stg]

CR2

Thanks for your reply. Indeed you need a very fast car to get from CH to LUX within an hour :)

So call out means that they call you 1 hour before check-in to make sure you will start duty or else they would have to arrange a reserve crew?

[CR2]

Sorry late reply.

Arranging a reserve crew because the scheduled crew couldn't show up in time... Any guesses as to what would happen?

[IOLAR60]

quote
I challenge you to find another job in Europe with the conditions and pay that you have here at Cargolux. When you do- go - you will find out that it is never to late.
LF[/QUOTE]
Jungleland:
During training (3 months), you get about €3000. After that, with less than 600 hrs on type you get about €4000, then with 600 hrs on type (and more than 3500TT) you get to the 'normal'/'senior' FO payscale, which is even much better. Plus allowances of course
?
How much allowances would you earn LF?Thanks mate.

[fitforflight]

Hello STG,



the one hour rule means that they call you for duty one hour before check-in. Your planned duty time does not mean much. They may call you for duty early, or may let you stay close to the airport for ten hours before they call you out for a 16 hour duty.
So your duty starts one hour after the wake-up call, regardless of your scheduled time or your show up!

[stg]

@ CR2 and fitforflight:

Thank you for your replies. Be there 1 hour before check-in, that's all what this means.

[luxfreight]

To IOLAR60

well mate,as a starter we get paid $4/hour in per diems changing to €4/hour in October by the wisedom of our blessed kniting club (pilot's association).

We get extra for flying at night,Sundays and public holidays which does bring your monthly salary (all-in) up into the region of €6000-€6500 from your third year onwards. Before I'm shouted at, I have included the per diems in this amount.

On a sad note, my enthusiasm for the company has been seriously dented by the negotiations to reach a settlement on a new collective work agreement.We have been sold out by our unions, which where intimidated and corrupted by the management. Considering that three brave souls have lost their jobs it's a very sad thing.

If you are seriously looking at joining CV and you have a family, ask yourself how long you are prepared to stay away from home. In my last two rosters I've had pairings of 16 and 15 days and I have a 11 day pairing on my present roster.Don't get me wrong I'm not moaning about this, but my family are - and suffering. I feel that we are being punished for the tone that our negotiators took whilst looking for a settlement to our CWA. I take back what I said to my colleage in my previous ramblings, the money can be fantastic (for what we love to do ie.fly jumbos to great places all over the world) but life- I'm finding out- is not all about that.

LF

[CR2]

luxfreight. I was speaking to one of our pilot delegates yesterday. He told me that the CWA was signed by the LCBG behind their backs. There is apparently some text in there which is illegal - 4.5 hours for one of the legs. You should check your mailbox in ops...

[luxfreight]

I did read all the c**p that came through my mailbox. I think if our guys had kept their heads out of SMARTS and kept their eye on the ball I don't think that this would have happened.Don't be fooled into thinking that the second sector (4.5 hour rule) is the only problem with this CWA. The whole thing stinks. The poor guys who made a stand for this must be wondering - "What the hell"

[luxfreight]

Nice one - maybe you should try fishing instead of fighting the lux- system. It mite improve your language.

[Aedius]

so the question remains: To strike or not to strike?

I'm currently also considering to join CV and eventhough I'm fulfilling all of CV's requirements (flighthours, JAA ATPL, living in Luxembourg, still in the 20s) and really want stop doing short-range flights, 4 legs a day, 85+ blockhours a month but instead fly around the world with a more "relaxed" roster, I believe with the current situation of CV's CWA, I will rather stay in the company I'm working for the time being.

Of course, the thought of flying 747s around the world, earning more money in the long run and working for a company whose commercial and financial future looks currently extremely bright is very, very tempting but having a social life at home with friends and family certainly is tempting too.

Now that the new CWA has been signed, do you mates working for CV think that there is any chance that a more balanced CWA (working / resting at home) is plausible in the foreseeable future (1-2 years)? Because if there is any chance for improvement in the long run, I certainly would like to join CV, have a few less "nicer" years but enjoy my dreamjob after that period.

[PrettyBoy]

One union signing a CWA for a group and delegation it doesn't represent, without even asking...... :yuk:
Another union which actually does represent this group has signed the same CWA, against the will of it's partner, without even asking.... :ugh:
Banana unions in a banana republic and ever increasingly, a banana company. If it wasn't so sad it would actually be funny. It seems that the soap opera continues.

[Jungleland]

One good thing about the new CWA... it seems to be somewhat better for those who commute. At least something. Maybe.

[CR2]

Did the delegation resign en masse yesterday? Heard it was on the cards after having been stabbed in the back.

[ray cosmic]

Aedius; The future for CV looks better for CV than for LG;its as simple as that.
It might be tough, but at least you'll have a future, which on the q400 is still the question.

[Aedius]

You're certainly right about the uncertain future with the Q400s and like I said, I don't mind doing 15-16 days rotations every month for a few years but I highly doubt that anyone will be pleased with his social life if this continues for the next 20-30 years. Flying 747s to exotic destinations is nice but will certainly not help to forget the time you won't spend with your family & friends, especially not after 5-10 years.

I would try to join CV immediately if I only knew that that there might be a chance that things get better someday because at least in LG I know that the roster cannot become much worse because we're already pretty close to the limits.

Of course everyone has different priorities in his life and I'm looking for a company in which I can stay till the pension (if only possible) and that's why I don't think that CV is the best choice if things remain as they are. I could be wrong but I don't believe that many will stand the test of time at CV if things don't improve.

[acmi48]

for my info will there be any firework display on the 31st as the invisible ink runs of the lcgb signed copy of the cwa ,and will the 2 little smart cars be ferrying around pickets:)

[IOLAR60]

Thank you for your responses LUXFREIGHT and AEDIUS.
I

[luxfreight]

To IOLAR60, it's a pleasure mate,and if I where you I'd try join as soon as possible, mainly to get on the seniority list. FDP's will get better and so will the CWA.

To bigiron, thank you for editing the swearing out of your attack on me. Maybe I deserved it, maybe I didn't- but we are democracy and I think I'm entitled to my own opinion. I was put off trying to join the board when I heard about colleages getting phone calls telling them to withdraw their canditure (for the board),after that I felt that my opinions would not gell with the kleck and your above reasoning does not apply.So please don't generalise.I have had my ramblings on this thread and had a go at CST which I deeply regret now.I truely suspect that you are a very nice person but fighting the lux system is robbing you of your sense of humour. All I can wish you now is Good Luck!!!

LF

[Buster Hyman]

Resignations? :eek: Geez, you guys wanna ask the Aussie pilots at CV about 89!

[CR2]

No 89. Repeat no 89! :=

[Buster Hyman]

Sorry Ratty...:O

[cargoflyer]

No 89. Repeat no 89! :=

no... why not.... :E

[CR2]

'Coz I said so :}


Seriously, it gives nothing but grief. Try your luck on the Dunnunda forum if you wish, though Buster will tell you it'll last a max of 5 mins.

[cargoflyer]

'Coz I said so :}
Seriously, it gives nothing but grief. Try your luck on the Dunnunda forum if you wish, though Buster will tell you it'll last a max of 5 mins.

ok ok... :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

5 mins if yer lucky! Serious grief ensues and bitter arguments continue...

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/box.gif

...where were we?

[PrettyBoy]

Well, it appears that the saga continues. The union representing the pilots (the same union that signed the CWA against our will but promised to cancel their signature should a majority of the pilots vote NO) has yet again lied and now refuses to withdraw their signature despite the fact that a vast majority of pilots did vote NO. The Management of course is behind all this and surely must have put a lot of pressure on the unions for them to betray their members.

So, what is a promise worth? When what you say and what you do is two different things, all trust is broken. This is the precise reason the pilots has fought so hard the last 3-4 years to put in clauses in the future CWA that would protect the pilots against a rough company in a rough country.

For those of you considering joining this company be aware that this is how it works in our neck of the woods.

[Aedius]

Thanks for the info, it's much appreciated!

[CR2]

Well, it won't be long now before we start negotiating the next CWA.

[HighLoader]

The union is representing ALL CV employees under the CWA, not only the pilots.

[CR2]

Quite right Highloader. I for one (as ground staff) was not impressed with our bit of the CWA. Unfortunately most of my "bretheren" did not agree; some of them had their own agenda (ie trying to get the Delegation ruled invalid so they could get themselves on unelected - thats another story though). I'm disgusted with the entire affair & feel sorry for those people who put in an enormous amount of effort, only to be stabbed in the back by the people they were looking out for.

[HighLoader]

I totally agree. I am also on the ground and our part is very unimpressive indeed. :hmm:

I also feel sorry for those delegates that really tried hard to get something done and I can understand their disappointment.

But I had not heard about attempts to get the delegation ruled invalid though :ooh:. The way the delegation was voted was not pretty, but it was legal. I knew about the "voting instructions" the pilots had and voted for ground staff only. It didn't help much, did it. But as you mentioned, it won't be long now before the next one :} and if I hear about pilots' "voting instructions" again, I will make sure everyone on the ground is aware of it. I am not saying that there should be no pilot on the delegation, but I don't want a delegation consisting of only pilots. I don't feel represented.

Anyway. I'm glad i's over now (it is, isn't it?)

[PrettyBoy]

HighLoader,

If the ground staff was soo unhappy with their CWA, how come you voted yes? It appears that the pilot-only delegation was able to get an agreement that the ground staff was happy with but not an agreement the pilots was happy with. Who won in the end??? This is not the issue. Just look back to 97-98 when ground staff ignored the pilots. The opposite did not happen now.

Don't expect too much with the next delegation (I'm sure you will get a majority next time!) because the company can still completely ignore you and instruct the unions to vote their way. It is such a pity we can't work together, and I just don't just mean pilot/ground staff, but really employees and employers! This short sighted attitude has already led to previously motivated staff now being fed-up and running scared. Too bad. This used to be a good company to work for where we did not have to clean our dirty laundry in public to avoid being fired.....

[HighLoader]

You say ground staff are happy with it, pilots are not? Well maybe one group is just easier to please than the other.

And did I say I was unhappy with the CWA? :bored:

Let's say I'm OK with it. Nothing much changed for us anyway. A slight salary increase and more I don't see... Thanks for not ignoring us. :ok:

If two parties cannot work together, it is rarely the fault of just one side.

And by the way, I am this evil and rough company you are talking about and so are you.

[Buster Hyman]

I'll just throw my 2c in from a distance.

It is almost a given that pilots & groundstaff are diametrically opposed when it comes to conditions and agreements. Could it be that groundstaff think the pilot group is overpaid & underworked? Could the pilots think that groundstaff are overpaid & underworked? Who knows for sure? The thing is, that the company (and that's all airlines managements) know this and use it to their advantage.

As Ratty has asked, I wont go into specifics, but I was at the coal face when this very issue raised its head in Dunnunda & the Pilots went it alone. The combined weight of the airline, government & the apathy of the other employees meant that the Pilots were crushed & the face of aviation in Australia changed forever.

Now, I obviously don't know all the specifics of what you lot are up against, but as a former employee of CV and having thoroughly enjoyed my time there, I would hate to see the employees at loggerheads against each other, whilst the company sits back & watches. The only way forward is together and you need to sort out your differences before that happens.

Pray it's not too late.

Good luck!:ok:

[ray cosmic]

Now that something is signed, continue with the true Luxembourgisch model: secret meetings behind closed doors.
As long as there is no reverse in T&C, you can be happy already in todays world.
Next door -at the other airline- everyone who is a bit qualified is using his or her elbows to jump ship. Not pretty at all..

[cargoflyer]

Gosh,
i wish this so-called delegation - may there be now pilots or non-pilots - would have spent so much of there time and energy to look after 100+ people`s interest just under 2 years ago... :yuk:

May your cotton socks be blessed and have fun dealing with the "financial heroe`s" (caused thats what is driving this company nowadays.. make a quick buck, and forget about the rest)... - enjoy :E :ok:

@raycosmic:
don`t think the folks - at the other airline down the road - are alone checking their qualifications... there are a fair number of "former CV" employees trying to avoid staying too long on a sinking "49/51pct show-boat"... :rolleyes:

@ all - be happy you have a CWA... other people are not so lucky :ugh:

Cheers

[PrettyBoy]

My point is, the way this issue has been dealt with is not correct. Some one mentioned that we should be happy just having a CWA but when we haven't signed and agreed to it then there is not really an AGREEMENT anymore.

I'm glad other groups are reasonably happy with what they got but please don't get into the habit of ignoring your colleagues who still have great concerns. I suspect that should the ground staff have the majority now they would have done what they did last time... ignore the minority. But again, this is not the issue this time. What is happening now can happen to you two years from now.

[Aedius]

8 LG Pilots just got greenlighted to start at CV in January 2007.

Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.

[ray cosmic]

8 LG Pilots just got greenlighted to start at CV in January 2007.

Maybe it's time now for me to do the same.

Really? Do you know for sure? As far as I know there were 6 who were delayed and nothing final was known yet..

[Aedius]

yes, 2 will be allowed to leave LG in September, something which you certainly knew for a few weeks, and the other 6 just got their confirmation from the management for next January the other day.

[ray cosmic]

Well, that's great news then!
One of them was not aware of this fact this afternoon.

It must be said full credit in this goes to the current LG CEO, the new LG DO and the ones involved in CV. The amount of flexibility displayed by CV, in combination with the sympathy received from forementioned LG people is unique.:ok: (with a littlebit of help from LCGB..)
Hope for you things remained this way by the time you made up your mind, Aedius!;)

[Aedius]

I can't really agree with your opinion eventhough I know that it is shared with several people from our management.

I don't think that most of the pilots leaving LG now thought of LG being a flight training school for CV but rather decided to leave LG because they saw no future within LG and didn't like the idea of becoming a Q400 captain in 15 -20 years when they have the possibility to fly 747-800s around the world and earn more money within a more "future-proof" company.

At least that's the way I see, and most probably the reason why I will try to switch over to CV. In fact, only 6-8 months ago, I never thought of leaving LG but that changed now because of the doubtful future of LG and not because I believe that my "CV flighttraining" is now complete. No offense though.

[ray cosmic]

@ AEDIUS

Could you please explain what you mean by "earning more"?
As far as I can compare both Payscales, the monthly basic salary is at least 400-500€ brut higher in LG than in CLX!
Any update is highly appreciated.

You gave the answer yourself by using the word "brut".
The first year you'll lose, but after that you'll be back at your old level; net that is, not brut.

[Aedius]

It's rather an "end-result" than a "brutto salary" thing.

LG employees are going to have a salary freeze for the next 3 years, allowances are higher at CV than at LG and CV employees got for the last few years a real nice profit-share bonus where at LG the bonus has been mediocre to almost non-existing.

Another point which will determine your real, net salary in the long run is the perspective of becoming a captain. With the present situation my upgrade to captain will take at least twice as long as it would be the case if I join CV right now.

Of course you'll also have to consider the future of LG. What will have happened to LG in 10 years? "Swissair to Swiss" phenomenon anyone?

[Boxshifter]

With the changed profit sharing formula in the new CWA I think you wont see the sums payed during the last couple of years.

[ray cosmic]

True, LG salaries won't be frozen.
Most LG pilots, if not all have already the 3500 hours, certainly after reaching the 600 hrs 747.
Meaning the brut basic salary after these 600 hours is €4800, instead of the plm. €5300 an LG FO makes. After that the rises are comparable; around €150 p.m. rise p.a.
That's indeed a difference, but the allowances etc. should compensate for that. And don't forget, these €500 are taxed as well, making the difference even smaller.
Now if you look at the extended career, if salaries at LG remain the same over the years, you'll reach your max FO salary in scale number 8, being €6221,87 with the 737 and current index.
You'll be stuck there, until your upgrade.
With CV you'll continue (as far as I understand) up till FO scale (god forbid it will take that long to upgrade) 31, being €9231,19 at today's index.
So, not a dramatic difference, but that in combination with all the other factors involved makes CV for most of LG the company of choice.

[Jungleland]

Hear the CV-pilot makes about €1500/month in average as per diem. Up to 1st of August it was in USD, but know in EUR. (€4/hour away from LUX for FO and €4,50/hour for CMD. Working about 15 days/month).

What per diem is it in LG? Per hour or sector or day?

Regards,

[Aedius]

At LG you get paid for working days, depending on the number of duty hours you had each day.

Less than 6 hours: 16,66€
More than 6 but less than 12: 25.00€
More than 12: 50.00€

My average for a busy month is around 430€

[trancada]

But how long is expected to up-grade as Comander in Cargolux?
Is the company hiring now ?
If one of you, well...I believe flew Airbus Fly By Wire before being type rated on 747-400 how was your adaptation ?
Regards

[TheRednosedReindeer]

1. Upgrade Perspectives:
We have a very unbalanced age structure. A huge bunch of pilots are around 30-40 years old. Meaning that an upgrade based solely on others retiring, would take very, very long. In short: Your upgrade totally depends on ongoing expansion. It's a snowball game....
When I joined, there were just a few guys being upgraded after only 2 years of service (having considerable previous experience), due to rapid expansion.
Right now, upgrades take place after 7 years. When it's my turn, I'll have close to 10 years. Any future perspectives depend on the devellopment of upgrades/year. At present: aprox. 20, so 200 people in front of you means 10 years. But don't count on it! We've had virtually no upgrades i.e. in 2003 - don't think this can't happen again...

2. Working conditions:
Yes, the newly signed CWA contains some slight enhancements. The main thing being, that the 3 "floating" OFF-days must now be granted in a block of 3. The main problem is though, that this new CWA has only a limited continuation after its expiry in 2008, namely 9 months. If no new agreement is found by then, we'll be down to legal limits!! That means, the company can then, basicly push through ANY claims because time plays for them. That's why I'm quite pessimistic about future working conditions - they will IMHO be a mere matter of market laws.

3. Rostering practice:
Anything is possible - just don't expect anything! There may be trips that you like, but don't complain if you get a few s**ty rosters in a row....
The worst thing are 24h layovers, getting in at night, to leave again the same time next night! If you get that constantly, you'll wish you'd rather fly island-hopping on a piston-plane....

4. SENIORITY
In Cargolux, seniority means everything. There are unfortunately a lot of guys at the top of the list who couldn't care less whether you can get your life organized at all or not. Don't expect to get a single vacation request with low seniority - it will be allocated somewhere in February and November. There has been an attempt to fix this, but failed, because too many old guys have an outdated attitude of "everybody has to go through the same hardship like I had to".
Same with the bidding for trips + OFF-days: With only few people behind you, there's no point in even bidding for anything at all - the system will not even make it down to you. Also, the AIMS bidding system that CV uses is Web-technology of the 80s (=takes a lot of time to work your way thorugh).
Once you get your lucky upgrade after, say 10 years, the whole thing starts over again.

5. Salary and Per Diem:
The statements in this thread on salary are quite correct.
Just PLEASE don't calculate the Per Diem as part of the salary, especially if you're not used to long-haul-ops. You'll yet have to find out for yourself, howmuch of the 96 EUR per day you'll need on the road. You're not going to make many friends by only dining at McDonalds. Apart from eating, you may need some money for certain activities, that make life on layovers bearable in the long run. Some play golf, some tennis, sightseeing, etc. etc. All this doesn't make it a great life, it just keeps you from getting depressive, which you will if you spend your time only in your room. Of course, the shorter the layovers get, the less chance you'll have to spend money...

6. Travel on company A/C
There could be some nice opportunities of taking your wife/girlfriend along on a trip. But always exciting! All of a sudden some horse grooms pop up (or some relative of the CEO), and she gets bumped off at Melbourne (lots of stories of that kind).
Travel with kids: very, very limited...

7. Culture in CV and LUX
Whowever thought that there was still some cooperation between management and pilots, shoul know better by now. It seems that at least some key persons in management hate pilots. There seems to be a great lack of mutual understanding. Not a good precontition for your working atmosphere.
The LUX system looks great at first, with nice laws about money (salary index, low tax however progression is strong here too), vacation (comes on top of any OFF-days), state benefits for kids....
The catch is, that LUX is not a real democracy in terms of separation of powers. The Luxies all know each other, and corruption is a big issue. So there's no real enforcement of law available for you, at least don't count on it...

8. Company strategy for the future
I'm not sure if there is any. We had a very capable CEO until 2001, Heiner Wilkens, who really put the company on the track we're on. He initiated the expansion, and I believe the current management has finally got it that this has to continue. All management is currently doing, is keeping track. If any turbulences ever arise, I doubt very much that they will be capable of steering us through.

Bottom line: Decide for yourself if this offers indeed a career perspective for you. Give it a 2nd thought!

[Aedius]

wow, thanks a lot.

This information is more useful and interesting than I could have ever asked for.

[luxfreight]

Hey,Santa's slave - a v.v accurate discription of Cargolux life -Well done.:ok:

For others Airbus to B747-400 conversion should present no problems!!

[CR2]

Point 6.

Look at your seniority. You get 1 guaranteed flight per year & the rest is seniority. I have 17 years seniority, so if it comes to a pissing contest, I usually win (also have 3 kids).

However, am usually (depending on manners) to discuss things (ie make a deal). I however, got burned with that recently. Agreed with the travel office to delay a family positioning to help another guy. Still waiting for the thank you that I will never get.

:hmm:

[Buster Hyman]

Hey! We never bumped anyone off in Melbourne during my time!!!:suspect:

Oh and Ratty...I believe you conceded the last pissing contest to me....:hmm:


;)

[CR2]

Well, I had to. You're bigger than me.

:ouch:

[Buster Hyman]

Well, I had to. You're bigger than me.
http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/bis.gif

(I'm going to frame that!):ok:

[ray cosmic]

..But that's all only for using the company aircraft.
Family also has standby travel possibilities with other carriers, right?
Is it actually possible to arrange a standby ticket for other carriers adhoc on the occasion you're stuck out there somewhere?

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Well, I forgot about that aspect.

The groups of persons that can travel on our A/C is strictly defined in the OPS manual. It includes a.o. family members of employees, but not crews from other airlines. Slightly longer story why that is so...

For that reason, other airlines are generally reluctant in granting us deals, because they don't get anything from us.
That's why we are very grateful for the few deals there are, but those don't get you very far when you'd really need them.

So when you take your wife on a trip, you have to consider the worst case. If she has time and is indepentent (speaks English a.o.), she might just wait for the next CV flight. But if you need to get her out quicker, you're gonna buy her a biz-class ticket one-way, taking up easily half your month's salary. If you get a cheaper deal - fine, but don't count on it. Time to sort things out could be very limited, too.

I've always been lucky so far (5 times total):) , but there's always a chance it goes wrong.

[acmi48]

cv actually made a huge effort especially due to the CAO issue amonst others to get permission to allow its staff and their family members to travel together on our a/c ,even today we face growing pressure from regulatory authorties on this issue. we are indeed lucky in this respect as few other all cargo airlines have this facility. good enough reason to keep it to ourselves and not invite others onboard.

[cargoflyer]

cv actually made a huge effort especially due to the CAO issue amonst others to get permission to allow its staff and their family members to travel together on our a/c ,even today we face growing pressure from regulatory authorties on this issue. we are indeed lucky in this respect as few other all cargo airlines have this facility. good enough reason to keep it to ourselves and not invite others onboard.


plus you forgot to mention that your chances of getting a confirmed seat have dramtaically increased since 01/01/06, or :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

wonder how long it will take until you folks will join the "other-side" and pay for your bloody vacation tickets and also no longer enjoy the upper-deck-travel :E :hmm:

[Rippa]

Hello all,

Does anybody know if there are any Brazilians at Cargolux? I am a Brazilian pilot and recently heard a Cargolux on the ATC speaking in perfect Portuguese at REC (on final app). I am trying to get in touch with that guy to ask some questions...if someone knows him, please PM !

Regards

[CR2]

Rippa, we have a couple of Portuguese guys & gals, but not Brazilian to the best of my knowledge.

[Rippa]

Thanks for your help Bigiron and CR2,

I really want to work at Cargolux someday, and getting info from a Brazilian would help me a lot...I believe that the guy I mentioned on the previous message is really a Brazilian...he didn’t have a Portuguese accent (the difference in accent is similar to an Irish vs a N.american). I will try to contact him and work some issues to be eligible for the job (Italian passport, JAA license, etc...). I have a couple of years to build up some hours and be more "competitive"... At this time I am 27 years old, 2.100TT (1.900 airline time), type rated on the B727/B737EFIS/737NG/A319/A320, and probably in the near future will get a A330 type rate. Hope to see you gays some day...

Regards

[Flightwatch]

Hope to see you gays some day...
Regards

You too Sweetie!;)

[v1r8]

Hope to see you gays some day...
Regards

Yeah.... I bet they can't wait to fly a 20-day trip with you!

V1.:p

[nose door]

yeh, we have a few brazilians, but they never seem to get to (the)finals!!!:ugh: oh and there is the odd monaco, amazon, etc:)

[Rippa]

Ops...sorry about that gUys...hehehehe

regards

[Otto Matic]

Hi guys,

A lot of excellent information about cargolux here. I'm hoping for an interview with them soon. I understand the assessment day is held in Saarlouis at IBF. Has anyone been there recently? Any preparation tips are always appreciated! Thanks, all the best.

[Otto Matic]

Fair Enough, my mistake!!:O

[CR2]

Was chatting to one of out training Capts yesterday; he said we're hiring 4 co-pilots a month at the moment.

[Buster Hyman]

At that rate, you'll need more Loco-Bloko's Ratty!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

:D Hi guys,

with intrest I have been browsing this tread for pages and pages....Thanks for all the info, being good or bad news.

I am an expat pilot from a neigbouring country to LUX, currently flying in the sandpit, looking to move back closer to home.

I have read all the posts here and I felt a sudden nostalgic emotion welling up....Fights between unions and management, fights within the unions between its members, assemblees generales etc etc....

I have read as well the posts ,written by very senior CV guys without a doubt, warning us for all possible pitfalls that lie ahead etc...

But in all honesty, after having read it all, I still feel CV is one of the best jobs around in the region.

Myself however I have been on HOLD with interpersonal since a couple of month due to the fact that all training slots are occupied. I meet the requirements by far and I remain confident that soon I will get my shot at an assessment.

What I am interisted in finding out is more info about social security. I have read here allready that, when you join CV you are able to continue with social security benefits etc..However, somebody put there is a short sentence that guys coming back from overseas might face some problems there...

I thought you only had a 6 months waiting period after you start paying the contributions again and thats it....

Anyone more info about that?

Another issue would be seniority list. Believe me, I am in favour of a seniority list after heaving delt with the ambigous middle eastern system for many years. One thin that worries me a bit though is the fact that its an unbalanced bidding system based purely on seniority. There is no rotation whatsoever. This means that, if I would be allowed to join, I could find yself getting the last choices year in year out untill I might have 30 FOs behind me.....thats a loooooong time to be going on leave in feb and nov every year!

Is this assumption of mine is the truth or am I wrong....

Once more, thanks for the info....

[rwy24c]

Your assumption regarding seniority is correct!
People were worried about this when the company had 50 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 100 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 150 pilots...
People were worried about this when the company had 200 pilots...
... enough? ;)
Currently we have 370 pilots...
Cargolux is still expanding...
and - you are right - it is a very good company to work for!
Good luck to you!
rwy24c

btw: in Jan/Feb you can travel New Zealand or Australia, go sailing in the Caribbean, go skiing in the Alps...

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Rwy 24C,


so I see people have been worrying about this ever since the beginning.
Off course, the bigger the company becomes, the slower the systemgets as well.

On big question than remains....how much longer will the CV expansion go on and How big is the actual expansion?

370 pilots is a lot allready but is no big deal when another 200 will join. On the other hand when only 30 more are looked for than you are in worse shape...

Does anybody knows the answer on my social security question?

Thanks a lot




:ok:

[ray cosmic]

Sgnr, The 50 being trained next year are apparently only there to cover the FTLs for the current amount of aircraft. Any expansion would require more crew, so I bet my lunchmoney the number will increase to at least 500 pilots.:ok:

[Jungleland]

Today CV have 14 a/c and 370 pilots (about), and they need more pilots to cover current ops with 14 a/c.

I hear that in five six seven years they will have 25 a/c and 600 pilots. Next year, and the years to come, will at least 30 pilots join per year.

The ten options of 747-8 I hear are now firm orders as well, so from 2009 20 747-8 are coming, plus they will keep some of the "old" -400's, of which two more is on their way, one in July '07 and the last one in January '08.

But changes happen all the time...

/jungleland

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Thanks R.C. for the PM...

So if these numbers are correct and with the average age of pilots being very young at CV you are looking at at least 10 years in the right seat. ( If nothing changes). Upgrades are only caused by the expansion if I understand correctly.

Thats about the same as CX...

Salary as well is about the same as CX....

Shedules are the same as CX.....

One would almost say that the two companies are copies of eachother hen ( Talking only about CX freight division)

I am sure many of you considered both airlines at a time before joining CV. Would you mind sharing with us why you went for CV and not CX?

I would appreciate that a lot....

Thanks

[rwy24c]

:= CV and CX are certainly not about the same.

Huge differences in company culture, esp. in flight crew training...
CV treats the SIM as a training tool and we have really fantastic people in our training dept.
(For comparison check CX threads in fragrant harbour forum.)

And our route structure is much more interesting...

btw: not too many people have had a job offer from CV and CX at the same time.
may be they don't look for the same kind of people..?

once again: good luck to you!

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Thanks for the reply rwy 24c.


that was exactly the reply I was looking for. I needed to see my suspicion confirmed about the differences in compnay structure and philosophy.

While, as you said, on the surface both look the same the underlying difference is totally different. Exactly what I was hoping to see/hear. I know CX a little bit and I have to say, I am not to keen on the British/australian mentality overthere.

I just wanted to see this confirmed...


All the reasons are lining up quit nicely as far as I am concerned...

[ray cosmic]

Sgnr, check your PM.

[Buster Hyman]

I am not to keen on the British/australian mentality overthere.
Oh I dunno...there's a few Aussie pilots at CV I'd be keeping a close eye on!;)

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hey Buster,


dont get me wrong here mate. When talking about the British/Australian mentality I was not at all targetting the people themselves. My best friends here in the sandpit are Ozzies. Great people to have as friends and great company to crack some beers with...

What I ment was the mentality in flying, where training is regarded as checking, backstabbing is the modus vivendi and the only way up is via the arse of your superior....

I am sure you know what I mean....Just look at operations like EK or CX.

Up to now I have been getting the impression that in CV it is not like that. I know, before you all start hammering me 'the newbee' again , that its is far from perfect but I do believe there is more of a european mentality present there...

Please correct me if wrong.....

Take care

[emergency descent]

What you are talking about is mostlikely that what is known by many as the "british military style" found for example at CX.
You will find nothing even similar to that at CV.
The main philosophy is "we make mistakes every day, the sim is here that you learn something" Everything is very relaxed.
The Lux. social system is not to bad at all. You will get full medical enshurance, a lost of licence inshurance, a state pension scheme as well as one from the company on top. You are protected if you loose your job...
I think it is a mix between Germany and France.

[Buster Hyman]

Didn't get you wrong mate!:ok: Took it with the grain of salt it came with.

I have seen the "expat" mentality at CX first hand. (Qualification: I know that not ALL of them are like this) It came as a shock to one Capt. when the smartarse comments he dished out came flying back at him quick smart! He wasn't used to any come backs from mere locals. He knew what was good for him if he wanted his loadsheet!:suspect:

[Otto Matic]

Is the Cargolux pension a final salary scheme?

[ray cosmic]

The State pension most people are entitled to get uses the final salary as reference, but there is a maximum - 5 times LUX minimum wage, currently at around €1500- of which you are entitled to get up to 80% (not 100% sure though). The rest is arranged in an extralegal pensionscheme in which the pilot makes a volantary contribution, and in which the company chips in as well.

[IOLAR60]

Hello again guys,
Could anyone give me an insight into a typical months schedule for a First Officer at the bottom of the seniority list?

It would be much appreciated.
happy landings
Iolar

[ray cosmic]

I actually don't think that exists. There's a biddingsystem which is seniority based, but you can only request so much.

[Jungleland]

13 rosters, everyone 28 days. In this roster you have 3 and 6 days off in two blocks, both blocks have 24hrs rest in front so effectively you have one block of 4 days and one of 6 days. 42 days vac a year gives 3,23 days/roster (min 12 hrs rest before) (although you have to take min of 5 days).

This gives in average 14,5 days REST/OFF/VAC per 28 days roster. If you're lucky you have one or two blank days per roster. The rest of the time you can consider being on the road.

With low seniority you very seldom get to south America and USA, Australia and New Zeeland, but end up in Africa some, but mainly Asia.

Is this what you expected?

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Hello again guys,
Could anyone give me an insight into a typical months schedule for a First Officer at the bottom of the seniority list?
It would be much appreciated.
happy landings
Iolar

Typical roster may be hard to tell, but here's the kind of typical trip that is increasingly common, as planning TRIES - to plan us more eficiently:

LUX-BAK-HKG-BAK-PVG-BAK-LUX with +-24h rest everywhere exept 36h at BAK in the middle (in order to stay legal).

People with good seniority AND some computer background may manage to outsmart the bidding system in order to avoid those trips.

If that kind of OPS is to your liking, then yes, CV is certainly a good bet.
Unfortunately, most people only find out when they're there, how their body reacts to this.

@Sgnr de L'Atlantique:
You seem to be amazingly good at numbers, I'd say you're quite right on perspectives based on expansion; adding to this, the current rate of upgrading is around 20/year, compared to what? 50? new F/O's (don't now the exact figures on that fronline), that means it's a snowball game - every year you join later gets you two more years in the right seat, unless....

somethoing changes -
- the rate of expansion increases to cope with the market
- suddenly new business pops up, like manning A/C for others...
- people start flocking away from CV
or on the negative side:
- they find a way to reduce the crew factor (tried that before, no success, but devastating results: 03/04 had very few upgrades, 2 more F/O-years for all of us)
- someone buys CV and puts us all at the end of the list
- some important Luxie gets cold feet and blocks further expansion (happened before, came together with a.m. crew factor issue)

So your 10 years estimate are IMHO possible, but rather optimistic.

If you join anyway:
Welcome aboard!

P.S.: You're very detailed with your qestions, but I think that's better than to find out too late....

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

Hi guys,


thanks once more for the many answers. The reason behind my apparently detailed questions is that I am really confronted with a huge dillemma.

As you know I am currently flying in the sandpit. Most of you have been here so you know that most places are not very nice to live in to say the least. I can not imagine anyone of you requesting an OTBD layover for example...:E

I came here after the SN/SR drama so it has been a couple of years now. For me its rather OK to stay here because I am away anyway most of the time but he missus is starting to complain...

On the other hand I will shift to the left seat of an aircraft within 6-8 months from now, possibly on an A330. Seniority wise I am at the top of the foodchain here so I can basically do what I want but....

Anyhow, the time has come to make a desision. Stay here and become a skipper but than stay for at least 3 more years ( without any clue what will happen after that period...)or come back to europe , choose for the lifestyle and sit on the right seat for another 10 years.

I know we can all go to the likes of EZ and others but in all honesty I would rather stay here than. I did my part of flying four sector days in foul weather all across europe for some years...

So if I come back to europe I would like to enter a long haul ops like CV. I have a few options but CV ranks at the top.

I do not mind those rosters you mentioned earlier. I am used to that anyway. We stretch CAP 372 FT/DT limitations to the absolute maximum overhere and the route structure is mainly east-west flying so we are the kings of jetlag..:sad:

Cargo flying does not bother me at all, it is rather the opposite...

I would love to fly those nice 747 s after an all Airbus career untill now.

CV salary is good and future financial whoes are being taken care of ..

I am a little bit worried about the seniority system but hey, I guess thats something we all have to go through anyway.

As I said, a dilemma....


But hey, keep the info coming....all info is more than appreciated!

[IOLAR60]

Cheers RednosedReindeer, JungleLand, RayCosmic and NoRulesInLux and the rest,

Your recent posts were exactly the information i needed. Thank you for your efforts and time.

I’m just trying to build up an overall picture of life at CV and your contributions have been very helpful.

CV is doubtlessly financially a good company, expanding its operations and increasing its profit and turnover year on year. Security for its employees is better than most in this environment and more stable than pax operations.
My present company is, as well as most of its competitors, battling rising costs and the effects of the low-cost carriers. Promotion, expansion and fleet replacement are nonexistent and thinking of the future does not give one a "warm feeling in ones tummy". Having faced the threat of redundancy once I feel it would be nice to work for a company that you could feel more secure in and progress throughout my career.

Unlike you guys i don’t have experience with long haul ops (even though id call 18hr ,multi sector duty days ,consecutively ,with no crew rest area on a short haul aircraft long"ish"). I get enough days off to live life and am paid well with a good pension (although taxed too much). I work in part of the world that is good for me, But i would not like to look back in ten years time flying the same machinery on the same routes from the same seat.

One has always to be wary of the "Grass is always Greener" mentality that can fill pilots thoughts, i guess we have too much time on our hands.

Regards,
Iolar

[TheRednosedReindeer]

In your position, I would suggest to base your decision on your age.
If you're under 30, go for it.
If you're over 40, forget about it - unless you're SURE that 3 stripes will make you happy until you retire. Once you're over 50 and still sitting to thhe right, you'd otherwise get nervous, and that takes the fun away.

One more thing if you're over 30: forget about the company pension plan. The way it's set up, only captains receive substantial contributions. Unless you can look at 20+ years in the left seat, the resulting lump sum is not worth mentioning.

Sorry if that doesn't make it easier to decide...

[loz]

Hi,
I ve been following the topic for quiet some time with big interest,
thx a lot for the great tips.
could someone please tell me if CV allows part time work ?, I mean after few years or so/seniority ...

thx
loz

[LBR]

With low seniority you very seldom get to south America and USA, Australia and New Zeeland, but end up in Africa some, but mainly Asia.
I've a very low seniority but I do go to all the above mentioned parts of the world except South America.
If you're over 40, forget about it - unless you're SURE that 3 stripes will make you happy until you retire.
You think it might take >20 years for an upgrade?
I think that anything between 10 and 20 years is realistic.
Oh well, still better then flying short-haul with 4 stripes.
Overall I am very happy to work for Cargolux :)
Good luck!
E Le B

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Oh well, still better then flying short-haul with 4 stripes.

That is totally individual.:=
So you're lucky to get a bit of a change on your roster...
good for you!
This can of course, always happen - the point is rather, that the nicer trips have become less, and are thus heavily requested by high seniority people.
Of course, 9 days USA with 7 sectors and 3 positionings will always be available....

I think that anything between 10 and 20 years is realistic.

:ok: Exactly. So: starting over 40, expect your upgrade between 50 and 60. Meaning: not much has to go wrong, and you never get it.
TRR

[LBR]

That is totally individual.:=
TRR
That's true, like most opinions here... ;)

So you're lucky to get a bit of a change on your roster...

I do (except for South America).
So far this year 4 south-, 13 east- and 11 westbound trips.
the point is rather, that the nicer trips have become less, and are thus heavily requested by high seniority people.

Sure, if you compare the present with the past (like 5 years ago maybe?) there have been some changes (I've been told). :rolleyes:
But if you just joined you can only compare the present situation with your own previous situation.
Being fair or not, as everything seems to be based on seniority the chances are that the senior people will get their requested/better trips.
That's the way it is.

:ok: Exactly. So: starting over 40, expect your upgrade between 50 and 60. Meaning: not much has to go wrong, and you never get it.
That could be true.
If you really need those 4 stripes to be able to enjoy life you better join expanding companies like Emirates or Oasis.
Gr. Eric

[Supahfly]

Hi Everybody,

Long time lurker here, thought it was time I revived this great thread. It's given me great insight in the company I would prefer to join for the long term. Unfortunately it's gone very quite these last few months.
Reason for that probably has something to do with selections having halted since last summer. I unfortunately reached the hour limit just as this hiring freeze popped up :sad:.

ppjn.org now mentions that hiring has restarted while the latest info I got from interpersonal is that hiring would not start earlier than june/july.

So here are my questions?

First off, has anyone been called for an interview yet and if so how long have you waited for it. Second, could someone in the know shed some light on future requirements in terms of number of new hires.

Any and all information is much appreciated and not just by me I guess:} .

[Buster Hyman]

Cargolux raises 747-8F commitment

Wednesday March 21, 2007 Cargolux this week placed a follow-on order for three 747-8 freighters valued at $845 million plus two options, bringing its total firm orders for the type to 13. It is the co-launch customer for the 747-8F along with Nippon Cargo Airlines (ATWOnline, Nov. 16, 2005) (http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=3090). It also has 10 purchase rights. Boeing said it now has a combined 87 firm orders for the 747-8F and the 747-8 Intercontinental passenger version.

[LBR]

Boeing News Release: "This brings the Luxembourg-based cargo operator's total 747-8 Freighter order to 13 airplanes, two options and 10 purchase rights."

What's a purchase right?
Would that be something in between a firm order and an option?
Gr. Eric

[acmi48]

purchase rights=production slots-is this the case???

very interesting to have if your opposition all start clamouring for 747-8's

beacuse then you are ahead in the game

[merlinxx]

Also a very good investment!

[rwy24c]

Can anyone confirm or comment the latest rumour that Panalpina is going to take over the ex-Swissair shares in Cargolux?

[acmi48]

now why would would they want to that ? when some many years ago they tried to get the lot..:oh:

[Pow-wow]

Are there any people with families (ie.with young kids) here who love the CV job, lifestyle and everything that goes with it ?

I know every company has its whingers and moaners, but surely there must be people willing to shed some light on what their home/family life is actually like. Is the salary sufficient to support your family and provide a decent house ?

I would love to get an idea of how many days in average you spend away and how much time you have with your family.

Thanks

PS. I am used to the LCO lifestyle including:

85-105 hours/month
Home pretty much every night
25 days leave per year

[LBR]

13 X 4 weeks rosters a year
Each roster at least 10 off days, normally either 4 + 7 or 10 in a row.
42 vacation days
A couple of "blank" days
--> at least 172 days off a year.
Time spent with the family depends on the time needed to get home.
Coming back in the morning from a trip and leaving the next day in the evening could mean 2 days at home if you live in or close to LUX.
Whether the salary is sufficient is hard to say, really depends on your needs.

[Pow-wow]

Thank you so much LBR,

Really appreciate it.

PW

[hawkeye red]

To LBR:

I agree.....coming back in the morning from a flight and leaving the next day in the evening is 2 days at home if you live in Luxembourg.
Of course you arrive well rested and of course you don't have to rest before your flight the next day, so why don't you just suggest to Cargolux that these 2 days be considered off days then.
You are one hell of a good employee......

Hawkey Red

[ray cosmic]

Hi, I changed from short haul, 4 legs a day, 20 days a month being home every night to this.

200% improvement of family and social life.
Ok, you're gone some days, but when you're off, you're really off.

What made the Short Haul difficult for me, was the lack of possibilities to have dinners, go out, do things with friends or family etc.
Rarely I could spend a whole evening, since I or was flying in the evening, or had a 0600LT check in time coming up.
These days I'm coming back, rest a bit and have a few days I can use from the morning till the evening doing things I like and or need to do.
Lots of phone calls with friends/family using Skype I do while on the way, so I'm not occupied with that at home.
On top of it, the average leg is not that long, so on the way back from the Far East you have some opportunities to sleep at the stations, so you're not fully jet-lagged when coming home.

What makes it easy for me is that I live very near, so I don't waste time commuting.
I do this kind of flying only since a short time now, but I feel it's beyond the Cargolux KoolAid I drink each day and the coolness of flying that big Freighter.
So for me, with a family, It was the best choice I could have ever made.
Moneywise it can always be better, but hey, I just started here!

@Hawkeye: From your few previous posts, is it safe to assume you are a bit of a negativist? You live near your work?

[hawkeye red]

Ray Cosmic

If you are so new to the business, let's talk again in 15-20 years.
I have been here long enough to enjo the really good times - it has all been downhill since, but if you are happy enjoy it while it lasts.
History shows that your family doesn't always share your opinion of a good job....

Hawkeye Red

[ray cosmic]

So you must have been on the frontlines defending our perks in the everlasting pilot/company negotiatons? Or have stayed on the sidelines merely observing how rapidly T&Cs are decaying. Let me tell you, it is not like it used to be for sure, but the other places went downhill even faster.
Company is healthy, pay is alright, time off and holidays are ok. Try Ryanair.

[hawkeye red]

Ray Cosmic

I see from your details that you are only 30 years old. That explains everything.....

Hawkeye Red

[flite idol]

Hey there Cargolux aviators, whats going on with the Boeing LCF contract? Are you flying it yet? Are the Evergreen folks trained yet? Just curious! Thanks!

[ray cosmic]

:hmm: Bit of a weak answer there, Hawkeye.

[hawkeye red]

Cosmic Ray,

No, it's a bit of cruel reality.

This business has been flooded with youngsters like you, who are so obviously impressed with big airplanes and exciting destinations.

Management loves people like you, because they know they can treat you whichever way they want.

Hawkeye Red

[LBR]

So what's my excuse to like the job (age 45)?
Gr. Eric

[hawkeye red]

Eric,

I cannot remember how often I have asked myself that question....

Hawkeye Red

[LBR]

Time for a career change?
Or is it too good to leave and too bad to stay... :ooh:
In that case you should try to make the best out of it!
Gr. Eric

[rwy24c]

I agree with ray cosmic and LBR.
A lot of our colleagues do not know too much about the world outside CV and some have forgotten already...

[acmi48]

quote: been here long enough to enjoy the really good times.. now which dc8 did u fly then?? or maybe it was the '44

for my 30 plus years..when i joined ,cv flew daily to lagos, and near as dammit 30 years later doing the same today,and the place is still the same aswell..

KTF

[LBR]

and the place is still the same aswell..
:= they now have internet in the lobby!
Believe it or not, I don't mind to go there.
Good food, nice bar, good weather, a gym and a tennis court.
It's not that bad!

[ArielDC10]

Hye, I am flying DC10-30F as FO and surfing in the net I saw an advertisment asking FO for Cargolux.
I have a JAR ATPL, FAA ATPL with DC10 type rating and 5200 hrs total time, 3000 hrs in DC10.

Do you know how many pilots would be hiring???:confused::confused::confused:
What about the terms and conditions???:confused::confused::confused:

[Buster Hyman]

DC10 to B744 driver Damn! You're an engine short of qualifying!:p;)

[16down2togo]

Ariel Dc10,
you have more than enough hrs to qualify, check the T&C's on the cv webpage but be aware where you would put yourself in the sen. list if you speculate about an early left seat.
Should be quit some hiring slots this year.
Just listen to LBR, he's a high timer who is unfortunatly at the end of the list but happy.

[ArielDC10]

I have been traying to apply via interpersonal website. I am alredy registered but when I finish the application option at the end of the page is not appearing. Is there any other way to apply?:confused::confused::confused:

I know when you join a company like Cargolux would take several years for upgrading a new FO.
But I love freighters, specially the B744. I was based in Luxemburg during ACMI operations and it is not a bad place for living, perhaps Lux is little boring, but It is a beutiful place, specially in spring.

[SkyChris]

Hi there

Again...One guy interested in working for CV. I also have family and so I am interested in the CV lifestyle.

How does a typically CV roster look like? Or a typicall rotation? I am not living in LUX and I will most probably not move there. So is there anyone of you commuting to ELLX and could share his/hers experiences?

Thanks a lot

:D

[16down2togo]

Hey you might probably be the first guy to join beause of the 'beautiful' wx in Luxembourg!!! The rosters those days -hm- if that's your reason to join, say good by to your social life. Company's still doing good, but that's not the point to count on. Market is picking up doesn't it? The positives are thanks to our hard working mechanics we have formidable aircraft , they are not getting old and the money is ?ok? but don't count on any privat life if this is one of your major issues. Those times are gone.......unfortunatly.

[Pow-wow]

Hello again everyone...

Would anyone be willing to pm me the T's + C's for FO's at CV ?

Would be most gratefull...!

Cheers

PW:)

[ray cosmic]

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=9mxx1z36tu6us2sut1u85r4p445zuwjs43cws3q8nmq1 a4ktt1q

[Pow-wow]

Thank you Ray Cosmic,

PW:ok:

[BigLebowsky]

Interesting thread this, but long... had to skip a few pages so forgive me if I this is a repeat...
Read that you were working to rule early 2006, is that still going on, or have things improved?
Also, are you flying between PIK and LUX? How often do you stay over in PIK at an average?
(guess where I live!)

[Jungleland]

No crewchange in PIK. Some flights to US via PIK (then with 3 crewmembers), and some returnflights as well.

But which days they are I don't know. Think quite frequent. Heard that the other day there were 3 stops that day. It varies.

Work to rule was just a couple of weeks I think. Since then they have a new CWA.

[Kestrel_909]

Ouch, I wouldn't fancy a LUX-PIK-SFO/SEA like today! I assume one crew would then do the likes of the SEA-SFO-YYC part and then another crew YYC-LUX?

I don't work for CLX, but some limited knowledge of the goings on through Prestwick. As far as I know, there are weekly LUX-PIK-SFO and LUX-PIK-SEA services, PIK-SFO service today, and there was a PIK-SEA on Friday. I'm not sure of any others routing out through PIK.

Some ORD, IAH and JFK flights returning to LUX route via PIK also, but not sure how regular they are.

[balu_777]

Could anyone forward me please a current Cargolux pilot roster and if possible the current collective work agreement as well. Tried their local pilots union but no reply so far ... Rgds Markus :ok:
e-mail: [email protected]

[LBR]

If the figures regarding the savings are correct they could easely hire some people but, it's only when you have to cancel flights because of delay code 64 that you need extra crew...

[FCS Explorer]

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread so far and providing good insight and 'frontline' information.:D
i do understand no-one wants his personal rooster flying around the www, but maybe someone could shed some light on the average number of hotel overnights, layovers, flight hours...
how many days in row do you fly before you get (how many) hours off?
ppjn.com states recruitment started again. should i hurry to get my application in or is there a continuous process over the next months??
(my current company seems to be going down the drains:suspect:, but it pays so much for so little work - really a hard decision)

[luxfreight]

I thought that this thread should died months ago. Anyway....on average between 16-18 nights/month in a hotel.9days off (6 fixed, 3 floating). If I where you I'd put the application in now and then see how your company does. It's getting longer and longer to a comand so the sooner that you are on the senority list.....

[CEJM]

Just out of interest. Does Cargolux give you the oppertunity to work Part-time? If so, what agreement is in place i.e 75/25% or 50/50%?

Thanks.

[Jungleland]

They offer rosters off as part-time.

The year consists of 13 rosters of 28 days. Pilots can bid for one roster off, two rosters off etc up to 50% part time. Goes with seniority or special needs.

If you get approved two rosters of, two of your rosters during the year will be blank. The salary throughout the year will then be 84,6%. You loose the per-diem when you don't fly obviously.

[CEJM]

Jungleland,

Thanks for your reply. However, you mention that when you have two rosters off you will get two blank rosters a year. Does this mean that you got two periods of 28 days off. Or can you choose to have one week off in every 28 days etc.

Thanks.

[Jungleland]

No, that's the catch. They only give whole 28-day periods off. They call that part-time.

For the rest one can use the 42 days vacation. Must take minimum of 5 days vacation at a time. So in 8 periods you will have 16 of 28 days off.

In every 28-day period one has 9 days off. They come as a block of 3 and 6. Before these one has 24hrs rest. So that will be every 28-day period 11 days off (including rest). With 5 days vacation on top of that gives 16 days. This can be done 8 out of 13 rosters (40 days). 2 days to spare.

42 days vacation with no part-time!

[FCS Explorer]

ok gentlemen, once again your wisdom is appreciated concerning the two core elements: work & money.

my current contract allows max 5 days in a row. now if i try to fix the mentioned 16/17 hotel-nights in the 28 day-roster it might look like:

10 FLT +( 1 rest + 6 off) +8 FLT+(1 rest + 3 off) = 28

do you have off-days or rest-periods abroad :confused: or is there simply no limit to how many days in a row duty is possible :confused:....?

So if I manage to get in (bringing 4.000 hrs B737), complete the training and get my 600 on type…
I’d get 4600€ minus about 26% tax + 1500 per diems (in the 10,5 months I work)= 4900 net!? whoa :D:O Nice. If correct. Plus between one and three extra basic salaries.
On page 3 of this thread in post #89 even more allowances for night/weekend and public holidays are mentioned. yes, ok, I’m a little greedy, but basically I just wanna know b4 I go.

[lustforlife]

Hi FCS explorer,

Just to make you even more keen, I dont think you would have to pay 26% tax if you lived in Lux (or perhaps you want to live elsewhere).;)

Perhaps someone else who falls into the junior F/O bracket could confirm?

LfL

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Hi everybody out there,
I don't know where you got the 26% from, but it could be realistic if you are single, however this is only guessing.
Married with kids, you pay more like 5% tax off the starting salary, plus some 8% social security (which I would - again - GUESS to be already incl. in above 26%).
Just don't count too much on remaining married for too long,
--> does anyone have a halfway reliable figure on divorce statistics in CV, by any chance?
As your salary increases, so does the tax rate, the progression is quite significant, I believe.
Maybe a captain could state his/her tax rate?
All this applies for sure when you live in LUX or D, for B I'm not sure, F has some different special deal for pilots, living elsewhere you may have to pay home country tax rates. Find out about your specific "Mutual Tax Agreement".
And last not least, 1500 EUR per diem is about the maximum you might get occasionally. My average over the last 11 months is 791 EUR (F/O).
At the risk of repeating myself, do not, by any means, count this as salary. You'll need to use a good share (if not all) of it, in order not to get depressive in the confinement of your hotel room!!
So much for now - TRNRD

[Dutchjock]

correct me if i'm wrong:
If your average is 791€ a month divided by 24 hrs and divided by 4€ an hour that means you are working an average of just over 8 days a month.

or if you are a capt and divide it by 4.5€ an hour it means just over 7 days a month...

Very nice indeed

[FCS Explorer]

if you google for "doing business in luxembourg" you will come up with the 'chambre d'commerce' and on page 9 of chapter 6 this link:
http://www.cc.lu/docdownload.php?id=1016
there's a table from where i got the 25%, assuming that the amount stated in the first colum is the yearly income. (i'm sorry, i couldn't find the union-jack-english-language-button on the site).
thanks for alerting me on the loss-of-social life issue, but actually all my social life will fit in the 10/11 off-days.... :sad:... easily.

now tell us, is there a different per diem for different places or why did you end up with an average 800€?:confused:

[FCS Explorer]

#1: how's the rating paid?
#2: if i take for example 15 days vacation in a roster:
will i still have the 11 OFF-days and 2 remaining working days or do vacation and OFF-days cancel each other? my current company counts every 3rd Vac-day as OFF-day. so after 15 days Vac i would loose 5 off-days from the total of 11 per month.

[Jungleland]

They do not cancel each other.

If you come back from a trip the last workingday of previous roster, the new 28-day roster will look like:

1 day rest
6 off days
3 off days (no rest in between 3 and 6 off days if they come together)
15 vac days (if you asked for them here)
3 workingdays (going in to next roster most probably)

Away about 180 days/year. With €4/hour as F/O from checkin to checkout, plus night-, sunday- and national holiday supplement one will get about €1000-€1500/month as taxfree per diem.

[Jungleland]

Forgot,
Rating is paid by the company. 4 years bond.

[FCS Explorer]

that off-and-vac-deal sounds really fair.
the bond on the rating: does it mean i pay it back over 4 years OR by simply staying 4 years (and paying a leave-early-fee for leaving within those 4 years)?
my current employer "degraded" my payment the first years to get the money back. so basically I paid the rating...

[ray cosmic]

You'd only have to pay for the TR if you leave earlier.
Per Diem around 800-1000 Eur indeed, I personally had a max. of 15 days where I had duty per 28 day roster over the last year. In that figur I also count days where I returned in LUX at 0600LT or had check-in at 2100LT.
All in all, if you live in the area, you really win a lot of time.
Strangely enough, it seems rosters for locals seem more friendly than the ones issued to commuters. Or to put it differently; Commuting for more than a few hours; certainly if it involves aircraft can be very tough on the person and his family.

After 600hrs on type and 3500hrs total you'll soon make a little over 5000Eur gross basic, since another index increase (auto salary increase in LUX) is expected soon.
So you could say, on a regular, normal month;
5000 basic
500 in night and Sunday supplements
1000 per diem net.

You'll pay "a lot" of taxes when single; married with 2 kids around 7%.
Only over the basic salary you pay the income taxes and 10,55% for Social Security and State Pension.
Over the night, Sunday and holiday supplements you only pay the contribution for Social Security and State Pension.

Its a worldwide and long haul freight operation; length of trips can be anywhere between 1 and 17 days; layovers between min rest and 5 days.
Very often around 20 hrs rest though on outstations, especially on the Eastern routes.

[FCS Explorer]

Thanks for the info.
i'm a little confused about the 10.55% on the "tax-free" night, Sunday and holiday supplements.
do singles pay tax on the "tax-free" supplements and then end up with those 10,55% total tax while families get the "tax-free" as tax-free and end up with then 7% total tax???

[Vizcaya]

Thanks for all the info so far! :ok:

Just a small history question: didn't Cargolux have a 'pay for type rating deal' about one year ago?

[ray cosmic]

FCS, I just rephrased the sentence to make it somewhat understandable.:}

There was a self-sponsor program in place once, but doesn't exist anymore after strong opposition generated by the pilots.

BTW over time some parts of the initial posts of this thread became outdated. Profit sharing is theoretically still in place; practically it disappeared.
So no more 2 months extra pay in June for now and the foreseeable future.
Did anyone say 10% pay decrease?:{

[FCS Explorer]

hi ray, thanks for putting up with our questions!:ok:

so for a 2nd year pre-experienced bachelor i pieced together the following:

13 months*4,2k€=54,6 brut x 0,76 (=24%tax)= 41,5k net
+
180 per diems x 100€ *0,9 (the 10,55% social)= 16,2K
+
Night & Sunday 10,5 months (rest=vacation)*500*0,9 (social)= 4,725


grand total per year == 62,4 net :12= 5,2 per month

[ray cosmic]

hi ray, thanks for putting up with our questions!:ok:

so for a 2nd year pre-experienced bachelor i pieced together the following:

13 months*4,2k€=54,6 brut x 0,76 (=24%tax)= 41,5k net
+
180 per diems x 100€ *0,9 (the 10,55% social)= 16,2K
+
Night & Sunday 10,5 months (rest=vacation)*500*0,9 (social)= 4,725


grand total per year == 62,4 net :12= 5,2 per month

Ehm, no.
More like:
13 months*(4200€ - 915,70€ tax - 443,1 social sec etc.)= 36935,60
+
180 per diems x 100€ (free of everything) = 18,0K
+
Night & Sunday 10,5 months (rest=vacation)*500*0,8945 social sec etc.= 4696,125

grand total per year == 59631,725 net : 12= 4969,31 per month

tax calculator on: https://saturn.etat.lu/cobar/bareme/CalculPP

Classe d'impôt means: 1/0 for bachelors, 2/0 married, 2/1 married - one child, 2/2 married - two children.

But again, over 600hrs and 3500tt you'll have a basic of around 5000. In turn, since your basic salary increases, your "special" hours will give you more as well.

EDIT: CHECK OUT PAGE 14 FOR A MORE DETAILED BREAKDOWN!!:ok:

[FCS Explorer]

ok, now i got it :}

[738-Midranger]

Hi there!

What I am really much more interested in other than the salary scemes is a successful application process.

So therefore I´d be very thankful for some "insider" informations concerning this subject. Also in regard of the tests in Sarlouis.

What can I do in advance, how are the generel chances?

(FO B-737-800, 1800 on type, total 2500, FI(A), former HT, 27years old, german)


Thanks so far! :ok:

[ray cosmic]

Oh, you don't care about the money; just want the job right?
You could go to Munich to ATTC or in Bremen (?) to one of these other centers to prepare.

[AUTO/MAN]

And how do you prepare for the agency doing the screening?

[ray cosmic]

First of all by learning to read.

[lustforlife]

Anybody been through the process recently?

I have +3500hrs on 737&A320 Right seat, 29 years old and live in EU. I have an application with Interpersonal for about 15 months now which i update regularly but have not heard didly-squat?

Thanks to all the guys who have taken the time to contribute to this thread

LFL

[AUTO/MAN]

Oh, I´ve read about the screening, the tests etc. but I still haven´t found out how to prepare for an agency that doesn´t acknowledge updates, answer e-mails or keep applicants updated in any aspect of their application... ;)

[ray cosmic]

Sorry, can't help you with that either! Sorry, and sad to hear they do not take care of applicants in an honorable manner.

[AUTO/MAN]

Not your fault RC , and your help so far is much appreciated!
Anyone with "Interpersonal experience" willing to share? Anything specific needed to be known about the process or their screening?
Experience so far is that one arm doesn´t know what the other arm does.
Somewhat confusing, when an airline that potentially could be one of the very best places to work in Europe is represented?

[ray cosmic]

For anyone who cares:
Just been announced this week that in LUX income taxes will be lowered by 6% and childsupport will be raised by 900 EUR per child. Meaning that having 2 kids will get you around 600 EUR per month total, independent of income..:)

[TheRednosedReindeer]

Just to enlighten the discrepancy between actual and theoretical Per Diem:
it's paid per hour, so every time you start off on a trip later in the day, or return in the morning, you don't get 96 EUR, but only 20, 30, 40 or so. With around 30 trips/year, that's 60x less Per Diem, so roughly 4000 EUR less per year than the theoretical figure of 180x96 EUR.
Fly only long trips, you get a little more, but then again you'll spend more too.

Cheers,

TRNRD

[HURZ]

Hi Ray Cosmic,

where do you have this from??? (less tax more for kids) You have a ref?

HURZ

[lustforlife]

Thanx TRNRD for clearing that up.

Going back to an earlier query raised by some of us.

Any Single , F/Os out there,living in LUX ,with no kids ,willing to give us an idea of what tax rate they pay? What social insurance rate (10%?)?


Basically what net sum did you take home assuming...

basic 3900
+ Per diem 850 ish
- Tax &Ins ????

Is there any tax relief available if your paying rent or a mortgage?

Is the tax situation very different across the borders?



Thanks
L4L

[HURZ]

Guy and Gals,

pleaaaaase do not take your per diems as salary. This is not very welcome in CV. You´ll need most of it to remain social....:ugh:

[GreekPilot747]

Hi raycosmic and others.
For those speaking french, the taxoffice has a webpage under
www.impotsdirects.public.lu
However the way I see it, the taxtable has been adjusted for inflation, resulting in lower taxes.
Couples with or without kids, will be in the same tax-category from now on.
For every child you will get a taxbonus.
This is to make the system fair, for those who have kids, and paid little or no tax. If you pay no tax because of a low income, you cannot benefit from a taxreduction for kids. So with the new system everybody will get a bonus per kid, regardless of income. If you pay no tax, the taxman will pay you money per kid.
However guys the numbers are more like annual figures, and not monthly as has been mentioned above.
Annual tax reduction per kid used to be 900€ and is now 922€.
The tax-table has also been reduced by 6%.
In my case the gain will be around 900€ annually.
A welcome break, especially if someone looks at what other countries are doing with their tax-rates.
Regards.

[ray cosmic]

There you are. I read it in the Wort last week and it was on LUX tv as well. Details were only a little vague. The explanation from GP is more clear.

L for L:
Take basic 4193 for a first year fo with less than 600 hrs on type.
Sunday, night etc. 400

You'll pay 10,8% for social security and state pension over 4193+400E
Exempted for income taxes:
- The 10,8%
- a certain amount for kms driven to work; limited to relatively short distances, so say 130E (Living in Berlin won't get you more than living in Trier).
- Personal contribution to company pension fund, say you put in 100E p.m.
- The 400 you made in supplements
Means Taxable is:

4193 + 400 = €4593- (10,8%)-(130)-(100)-(400).
=
4593- (496)-(130)-(100)-(400).
=
€3467 -> income tax for bachelors: 629,40 (!) (for married, 2 kids it would be 70,60) (from https://saturn.etat.lu/cobar/bareme/CalculPP )

You'll also pay something called the "assurance dependace " of 1,4% over your basic, so around €58.

Meaning you will have:
4593-687,40 income taxes - €58 (1,4% ass. dependance) = 3847,60

plus your (always net) per diem of say €850 + €356,80 (€400 minus 10,8% you lose to SS and pension).

So 5054,40 net if you count your per diem as income.
Interest on mortgage and lots of small items like legal liability insurance, car insurance etc are deductible to a certain (small) extend. But that is starting to get out of my league.

After 600 on type and >3500hrs total your basic will be 4913, one year after that 5065, the next year 5215 etc.

[lustforlife]

Thank you very much RayCosmic for taking the time to explain all that. Exactly the info i and im sure others needed.
Cheers

[ray cosmic]

Admitted, the numbers I used are very conservative.
400 EUR in night/Sunday/holiday are maybe on the low side, but sometimes you also have VAC, courses, blank days etc. no?
The rest are according to today's tax/social security regime with the basic salaries in force today. Pretty realistic I think. I prefer not to count myself rich.

[lustforlife]

Is the basic for a junior FO not E3900. at present?

[ocala]

Fellas,

will go to the psychometric screening soon. Is there any advice on how to prepare for that part? Any hint on books, courses or www etc is highly appreciated.

Thank you

[ray cosmic]

CtoS, thx for pointing that out, post is corrected now!
Lust for Life, no, scales with today's index (bound to increase as well) are:

Training: 3069,97
Junior FO, every pilot with less than 600hrs on type, 4193,52
Senior FO, >600 on type and >3500 TT, 4913,72, the year after 5065,32

TU1 4.913,72
TU2 5.065,32
TU3 5.216,93
TU4 5.368,54
TU5 5.520,14
TU6 5.671,75
TU7 5.823,36
TU8 5.974,96
TU9 6.126,57
TU10 6.278,18
...and so on..

[Pow-wow]

Hello again guys...

Can anyone tell me how long, if any, the stopover in JNB is ?

Is the return always via Nairobi ?

Cheers again :ok:

PW

[sisyphos]

anybody working for CLX willing to display the numbers of

- total pilots
- cpt's
- average number of upgrades/year ??

thanks

[ray cosmic]

389, 180, around 30(?)

[738-Midranger]

CaptainInternally only, acc. seniority list, presently after 8 yrs. Statement by CEO is that 2013 Cargolux will have 15 747-8 and no -400's (today they fly with 15 -400's). Means no move in seniority for next 6 yrs. Upgrade for newhires up to 20 yrs








:D