Cargolux details requested!

[Kim Jong Il]

Hi Gents,
I'm invited for DLR in 4 weeks time. What is the best way to prepare? Still skytest? As I understand some of the excercises of skytest are a bit outdated. Anyone can provide any inputt?
Cheers

[jeehaa]

Use the cbt's provided

[Kim Jong Il]

Use the cbt's provided

Thanks jeehaa. That I will do for sure. I'm thinking using skytest too. Have used it years ago and succesfully passed for another company. Would you advise that as well or has it all changed since? Thanks

[jeehaa]

I think that the CBT's reflect the actual tests better than anything else as they are programmed and distributed by the DLR center itself. The looks are the same, as is the operation of the apps.

[standardbrief]

So whats the word from cargolux pilots about the china operation? On paper it looks like it suits me but im mid thirties with a narrow body command looking to move back to europe and would join as an fo. Thats ok if i could upgrade within say 5 years. Like the roster/plane/company, but is there something ive missed???

Thanks for all 'informed' opinions

[Kim Jong Il]

I wouldn't know but I think it's really hard to predict the time to command anyway, even more with a start up. But then again, I am not "informed". Easyjet, Norwegian, Ryanair, Transavia, Jet2 and more all offering DEC if a (fast) command is what you are after. But you can always apply and see.

[final06]

@standardbrief
CV China does not exist yet. It is a project.
Not talking about an AOC or airframes.
Consequently they wil not issue contracts at the moment.
To be able to fly as Commander in China you need previous experience. Unlikely that there will be upgrades IMHO.
They did a roadshow in Berlin. Result: Zero
Will CV China have a bright future?
Nobody knows.
Did you read the latest news about chinese economy?

[standardbrief]

Thanks for reply guys I already have a few tho hrs in the left seat of a narrowbody jet but no widebody time so im not looking at cargolux for the command, but I get what your saying theirs no guarantees of coarse. Wouldn't really care if I didnt have rugrats to pay for!

@final06 interesting point lets hope the office dwellers at cargolux have done their homework on china for the sake of all the people who do take the job.

A three day in a row assessment seems kinda full on and a long way to travel for me but will marinade on it a while

[negativeclimb]

Guys Cargolux is a nice company but not for the command that it takes at least 12-13 years so do not consider it for your upgrade.

[rotorcloud]

Nice company? Are you joking? Just use the google search function to know more about this company. You`ll be treated like **** - get fired when you are sick too often. Roster is changing continuously up to four times a day! You`ll end up more than 21 days away from home with a lot of flights all around the world! This is not the company anymore where you can retire. People are leaving, looking for other options. A lot of pilots are loosing there medicals because they cannot cope anymore with all this. You have been warned!

[hawkeye red]

@rotorhead....What a tremendous load of crab. The 4 pilots were not fired because they were sick too often...they were fired because they were not sick, despite claiming to be so. Right by the book....get your facts in order.
Roster is changing because that is the bread and butter for any cargo airline, and by contract you are available 19 days per roster period. If you can't take it, then leave and go back to SN...they did really well....

[Kim Jong Il]

Could someone confirm if "MIC - Dynamic Coordination" is part of the DLR assessment for Cargolux? It's not in the CBT provided. Thank you very much.

[hawkeye red]

30N30W....if you are part of the CLX family you should know.

[rotorcloud]

@hawkeye i know three of the four fired pilots very well! So be cautious what you say! There was a big fight between pilot union and management. Sick rate in general was/is hight. Management hired privat investigators to illegally spy on all pilots who called in sick between Jan 2015 and March 2015. They want to frighten the pilot group not to call in sick anymore - that was the main reason and they were all sick but left home within the first five days (according to a guideline from the Luxembourgish health insurance you should stay at home the first five days) But this is not a breach of law that allows flight ops management to kick you out after 18 years of being in the company! Nobody of them had a warning letter. Clean record! This are the facts! But let´s wait what will come out of the court cases. I am confident!

[A320driver33]

Could someone confirm if "MIC - Dynamic Coordination" is part of the DLR assessment for Cargolux? It's not in the CBT provided. Thank you very much.
Yes it is part of the DLR assessment.

[hawkeye red]

rotorcloud...you are a fool....when you hide behind aliases like PPrune you are not really aware of who you are talking to, are you ?...I may just be a person with very inside knowledge of the entire situation, and trust me, all 4 violated the rules of the Caisse de Maladie...not once, not twice but on several occasions....

[rotorcloud]

don`t get abusive my friend! I know the facts. And i don`t get a **** to whom i am talking to! You are definitely NOT a colleague of the Cargolux pilot group. Otherwise you would`t talk like this behind the back of these illegally fired gentleman.

[hawkeye red]

I am indeed...and these colleagues were NOT fired illegally. You can argue about the methods to expose them (which were despicable), but what they did was a crystal clear violation of the Caisse de Maladie rules, which in turn is a fault graves, ie. a dismissible offense. Check your CWA buddy....

[rotorcloud]

Sorry but this is definitely NOT fault graves! If you intentionally damage an aircraft or steal something - yes. But this here is something completely different. And by the way these caisse de malady guidelines are not applicable outside luxemburg. What a joke is this? You have a sinusite, you`ll get antibiotiques that won`t allow you to fly for two weeks. Then you go out on your third day of sickness to buy some food in the supermarket and get fired immediately without any pre warning!???
But please let the court decide. Be aware that in Luxembourg court cases take up to five years. Even if you are fired illegally - it takes a looong time. Management knows that and strengthens their strategy of management by fear.

[polaris79]

Could someone confirm if "MIC - Dynamic Coordination" is part of the DLR assessment for Cargolux? It's not in the CBT provided. Thank you very much.

Hey kim... Im unsure of this cbtthat u are referring to.. Where du get it from? Have u been imvited fpr an interview already buddy?

[Kim Jong Il]

Only for DLR. They provide you with a CBT when you are invited.

[Alain747]

Hey Gents, what is the latest on the Cargoluc china deal, I saw the package. Is anyone actually already flying there?also, what's with the tax in china, being a european ?

[polaris79]

Thnx Kim.. How about the Chinese ATPL.. Do u have any Chinese ATPL study material yourself?

[Kim Jong Il]

Question about DLR. In the handout I received from DLR they mention a "Physics / Basic Knowledge" test. Does that also apply for the DLR for Cargolux or is that only for future students of Lufthansa FA? If yes, what level is required for the Physics test? Secondary school is a very long time ago!

[captain.weird]

As DEP you will not get Physics. Instead you'll get some ATPL questions.

[Kim Jong Il]

Thankd Capt. Weird! I was a afraid I had to quote some obscure laws from way back when!

[A320driver33]

Someone who did DLR in Hamburg recently remember any test of mind calculation?

[negativeclimb]

About Math, the excercises are completely different than those which are sent via email.
I have found them quite harder especially because are time limited and I didn't finish all of them.

[N75537]

Hi guys, first my two cents:
I went to the DLR last month, its a tricky long day but we all can pass (I did!).
I didn't had amazing scores in the CBT provided (I thought quite bad in MEK and RMS), but hey, I did received the yes!
In the actual test the level increases with time, and as the colleagues said, they go up to the max level in CBT's (roughly).
Some differences, for example in Math some of the questions were NON multiple choice, and the time available is not too much as usual, so apply usual "test procedures" of skipping and then reviewing long questions back. There were no mind calculation or basic knowledge tests, also, no interview whatsoever.
There were also some psychological tests to check your profile, as usual many questions in not-so-many minutes.
The English test was quite to a standard, some of the questions where local expressions or old English, but can be done specially if you have lived in an English country.
The MIC is good fun, is just a game, not related to a plane or simulator you could practice. As the brief says, you have an altimeter, a compass and an anemometer, and they all move up and down as they wise, every time you managed to "compensate" it the dials just move away requiring more input, is just for checking your scan. Also you have the monitoring task, but it has a good pace and can be done.

Just be well rested and relaxed, they are just tests not the actual Cargolux interview. I don't recommend travelling there in the same day, and for the way back the tests ends around 1630-1700 for real, so keep that in mind.

For the new guys, good luck!

[N75537]

Now I need to ask, is there anybody in/around CLX who could provide the forum (or PM me) with the new Collective Work Agreement? The job offer is great as they say conditions "as per CWA" but then there is no way of getting it... Here in my country they are all public, but seems like they have different policies there...
Thank you!

[Apuleone]

Hi guys

just received an invitation for the 3 day assessment in Lux after passing the DLR for CV-China.

is there still another ATPL/Tech-test to expect? If yes, any help is highly appreciated.

thank you very much in advance

[Kim Jong Il]

I understand you get 20 open ATPL questions before the sim, but more practical than the ones during DLR.

[Apuleone]

Thank's Kim.

[madmaxfr]

Hi Kim,
I have received their documentation to prepare the simulator but they don't describe the Take off and ILS procedures for example. Did they explain it to you just before the simulator ?

Thanks

[fda747]

Make sure how to do a wing-wave that's all

[South Prince]

Incomplete statement fda, it must be a very "low level wing wave".

[Apuleone]

Granduc sent me an email asking about Tipps for the DLR

Can't send you a reply via mail, so here you go:

Hi Granduc

DLR: well, do the CBT's you got from DLR.
Don't believe those guys in the internet that get 99% on the cbt's. It's impossible.
On the visual memory for example i could hardly remember 3 numbers.....

The most important thing if you go there is to be fully concentrated while doing the tests.
Do not get distracted from the people next or in front of you. They might be faster but that doesn't mean a thing....
I brought earplugs, water and chocolate, focused on the tasks, didn't care about the others....

And for lunch i can really recommend the little Bistro 20m to the left of the DLR building. Looks shabby but they serve really good arab-style food.

Wish you good luck !

[promotionseeker]

Hi guys..
Could anyeone comment something about physics and math on the DLR?
Are they mixed together?.. too many questions?.. how hard are them?..

[Funflyer1975]

If you guys would have a choice between Cargolux China Or Cargolux Luxemburg. What would it be?
They both have advantages and disadvantages.
Just wondering...
Thanks!

[mansaloco]

Definitely CV China......
Great adventure
Great management
Healthy air quality
Great pay and conditions compared to other Chinese offers

But then again.....
They all apply to Luxembourg as well

HMMM

Tough choice....

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Why don't you go ahead and list for me please advantages and disadvantages of each.....
To see if we are on the same page

[BrianHQ]

Now I need to ask, is there anybody in/around CLX who could provide the forum (or PM me) with the new Collective Work Agreement? The job offer is great as they say conditions "as per CWA" but then there is no way of getting it... Here in my country they are all public, but seems like they have different policies there...
Thank you!
Highlights of CWA for new hired pilots:

35 days vacation iso 42 days

3 floating off days and 6 consecutive off days in a 28 roster period; no rest day before off days like old contracts.

So you work 2 days more every roster and lose 7 vacation days per year initially. After 5 years you get the same as old contracts.

Salary scale:starting at €4,159.72 gross (about €700 less than old contracts and you will never catch up)

Upgrade salary: you move back down
For pilots who are promoted to the position of Captain, the new Time Unit in the Captain scale will be calculated based on 1⁄2 of the years served minus 4 Time Units. E.g. after 12 years of service: new TU = ( 12 / 2 ) - 4 = 2

Needless to say many accepted candidates did not show up for the training ...

[Hushhushhush]

According to ppjn staff turnover is high and many copilots are leaving. Is morale really so low in Cargolux? It's a shame that they changed the CWA. However, when I look at the conditions of the majority of the European airlines, Cargolux still seems pretty good.. What changed over the last few years that makes people want to leave now??

[South Prince]

You can always seek a job in Cargolux Italia, was told management over there represent a high level of fairness, honesty and it is in Europe.

[Immelmann1979]

Hi all

For those who went to Hamburg recently, are the CBTs the only tests you get, next to maybe some personality tests?

In the paperwork they mention mental arithmetics, but there is no CBT for it...

Cheers

[jiggi]

Only CBT's in Hamburg at DLR. They are pretty much the same as the ones that you get with the preparation package.

[Immelmann1979]

Only CBT's in Hamburg at DLR. They are pretty much the same as the ones that you get with the preparation package.
Cheers jiggi. About the same difficulty too?

[jiggi]

Slightly more difficult, they get harder in the end. But don't worry, I got max 20% in practice running memory span test and I still made it through the DLR

[Immelmann1979]

Slightly more difficult, they get harder in the end. But don't worry, I got max 20% in practice running memory span test and I still made it through the DLR

Ok thx for the info. And what about the test with the dails? ( black &white ). Also bit faster? More difficult?

[Wiegger]

CEO of CLX has resigned. The substitute is the CFO, Richard Forson, who takes office for the second time. Better you to check the link below:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7252f4b8-cfb1-11d8-b4ce-00000e2511c8.html#axzz4D3hut2nT

[sled dog]

Is that the same Forson who almost made SAA go under '

[16down2togo]

Yup,it's really tough to leave the family alone during the week and only to be home EVERY weekend and for a couple of 4 week vac periods during every year, truly not a situation to be in for a longer period!
Poor Dirk, feel so sorry for all the burden he had to take to make our life
so much better!
We will for ever be grateful and hold the Reichkanzler in the highest regard!
All the best to a true mercenary!

[benzinasuper]

For anyone who attended Cargolux Dlr In Hamburg,
Atpl questions and Mental Arithmetic have been asked ?
Any Physics ?
Thanks very much for any reply.

[FLYJET123]

:rolleyes:Hello friends, I am going to DLR test BU/GU in hamburg on 2 August for Cargolux China. Would appreciate any type of feedback that anyone can offer. I am B767 rated 9000 hours experience. However I am getting on a bit, 45 years old so I need all the help I can get for these type of tests please.

[fly4more]

Couch, the big difference with the china position for Cargolux, is that its basically 12 days on, 11 off, or other variations. Subject to operational changes ! !
So, its not really full time position. Those big pay checks from mainline carriers will not give you the time off at home.

My biggest concern with CLC is the need to get a caac licence plus medical.
Giving up a good , stable pax command, to do freight, then say 6 or 12 months later, be flagged for the an obscure medical issue , requiring "investigations" , would be calamitous.

I was initially interested, but cant take this risk as im over 50, and statistically in the high failure age range for medicals in China.

[Cliff Secord]

What are the reasons for the DFO leaving?

[South Prince]

WingWave man returns!

[Little Maurice]

Warning to all prospect CLX pilots: this company will kill you faster than a speeding bullet and will ruin your health.

The schedules are absolutely grueling and, although initially you won't really notice, you should not underestimate the long term effects of cargo long haul night flying, constantly going from East to West and across the International Date Line.

[trancada]

Any news about China Operation?
Do you know if it is true that some 747 operating for Cargolux Italia are returning to Luxembourg?
Is Italian group reducing their fleet?

[trancada]

Latest news:

Cargolux's Reich starts new venture in Zhenghzou, as Zehren replaces Holt - The Loadstar (http://theloadstar.co.uk/cargoluxs-reich-starts-new-venture-in-zhenghzou-as-zehren-replaces-holt/)

[trancada]

Cargolux set for a fight as Qatar plans significant increase in Luxembourg flights - The Loadstar (http://theloadstar.co.uk/cargolux-up-for-a-fight-as-qatar-plans-significant-increase-in-luxembourg-flights/)

[South Prince]

whatsup with cargolux in milano? rumours of managers on the way out?

[Kim Jong Il]

I have another question in regard to Cargolux (Luxembourg). Do they allow if you fly commercially General Aviation in your days off. I am not talking about flying for competitors or even a ferry company. I am talking about giving flight instruction on SEP/MEP and / or skydive flying? This will be approx 150 hrs a year and will not interfere with FTL's. My current co has no objection but as I understand some companies do...

Cheers

[Kim Jong Il]

No one can enlighten me?

[fda747]

kim jong with a name like that what do you expect

[safelife]

Looking at the schedules pilots are sending me I think you can consider yourself grateful if you can BREATHE on your days off :o

[Aeroshizzle]

Hey all

Could anyone share their roster pattern please?

Cheers

[fda747]

Aeroshizzle there is no pattern,
oh yeah there is, on average 10 roster changes a week or sometimes per day.
Merry Christmas all.

[FrontRunner]

Some hints for anyone stupid enough to consider this job a long term career;

https://aircargoeye.com/cargolux-pilots-overworked-and-vexed/

https://aircargoeye.com/tired-cargolux-pilots-on-the-edge/

:eek:

[final06]

Due to the lack of interest from suitable candidates Cargolux has massively lowered the entry requirements and is now actively poaching the GA sector.
There are plenty of guys out there who perceive it as a great career move to step from a Citation jet directly to a B747-400/-8.
And this without losing money.
I would not call these guys stupid.

The articles mentioned above are spot on.

6 day trip sample:
LUX-BAH-MCT(14:45)TPE(14:00)HKG(24:10)ANC(17:30)ORD(16:05)LUX
31:15 block total
Early departure, late arrival in LUX.
Time in brackets is layover.

[Hank Moody]

*Final06

A GA pilot has much better options around when it's about numbers. Let's look at cargolux neighbor.

First year FO at luxair Dash8 5000+ euro
first year FO Cargolux B747 4150+/- euro (stated on Cargolux internet site)

If you look further even Norwegian b787 is better.

First year FO Norwegian b787 5150 euro (rishworth b787 info pack)

It wouldn't surprise me if Cargolux starting pay is one of the lowest in the industry for a Widebody FO

-There are probably even more better options but this is to show how Cargolux pay is compared with other airlines fishing in the same pool of candidates.
- and don't forget the upgrade time cargolux(10+years) vs norwegian(3+years). With upgrade there's also increased salary.
-this year all the temporally Lufthansa cityline pilots left, except for one or two due to personal reasons. The all refused the new contract offered to stay permanent.
-there are many reasons for joining a airline. It's for everyone different. But the figures are fact that nobody can argue. Personal reasons are not facts. So it's impossible to judge everyone's decision. And we should restrain our self from doing it.


* all the figures are gross salary

[Little Maurice]

For anyone applying: be careful what you wish for!

Morale is at an all time low and there are almost no benefits to a 747 type rating. Lots of people weighing options in the Middle East, so perhaps better avoid the unfolding nightmare in LUX altogether, and apply straight away with the ME3! The ME3 will kill CLX any way, so why waste time on a useless type rating, doing duties that will ruin your health?

A little bird told me that at the moment there is a lot of infighting going on within our beloved training department, as there is a scramble to stab each other in the back in order to jump the seniority list for captain positions.

Advice for anyone ignoring the warnings here: be very wary of anyone in the training department. Almost 90% of the people there are only working there in order to stab everybody else in the back; comfortable schedules (custom made by their little friend KL in crew planning), very little jetlag, a cozzzzzy 9-17 office job to recover from all the "hard" work, and the usual brownnosing with management. Training department = company spies, selling their souls for a few goodies. The rest of us can do the real work with endless roster disruptions and roster changes, fly round the world trips, ruin our health and social lives, and enjoy LUX layovers in the NH. :mad:

The big irony however is that this mentality is coming back to all the backstabbers in the training department like a boomerang, as not all wishes for quick upgrades can be granted as this would collapse the entire training department. Hence all the backstabbing among each other. :p

Last one out, please turn off the lights!

[ECHIE]

Hi little Maurice,

Are you really working for CLX? Where is this opinion based on? I am working in the training department for Cargolux and I can tell you that most of us, First Officers, working in the training department we don't want to jump the seniority list for a quick upgrade, no backstabbing here. Also as maybe you know, the months from October until X-Mas are the busiest months in our business, so least training as possible done during that time and most trainers fly the same as a regular pilot.

Besides all this we do a lot of extra work in our free time, like preparing courses etc... why? Because we love to train people. I love my work as TKI! It's a lot of work but I enjoy it!

Greetings,

A very happy Cargolux pilot.

[fda747]

Echie & Ray Cosmic Little Maurice is spot on and you are the backstabbers he is talking about :ugh::mad:

[16down2togo]

Although I have to agree not everything is bright those days in our lovely
little outfit and there is room for improvement in nearly every department,
presenting accusations like these if you are really a part of cv is bloody stupid since there is no known case of anybody jumping the seniority list for at least
16 years. BTW that's what a seniority list is for in the first place. So should you have proof of what you're stating, please take action and don't whine around on a public forum like an 10 year old! Or join your beloved ME3 airlines, where everything is working out so brilliantly when it comes to crews.
And I'm not and never was in the training department!

[Hurdle]

What I am curious about, and would like to ask ECHIE now I read his comment. If CLX is so in need of FO's, and I talked to a few captains from CLX and shared this same story.

So multiple FO's and CPT told me CLX is in dire need of experienced rated and ntr FO's (this is last summer). So I applied to CLX. Within 3 days I get a reply that I match all requirements but the management prefers people with a higher education than I have (Dutch general higher secundary education, they prefered direct university entry high school level. Even though I was at that time senior FO on a regional jet with almost 3k hours on type). When I met more CLX crews there were very surprised how this was possible. Could you shed some light ECHIE?

[space-shuttle-driver]

Same thing happened to a buddy of mine, which makes me think that there may be such a pattern, sadly.

[Hank Moody]

Hurdle,

Personally I think you should have gotten a shot with your experience.
But it's not a secret that you need a university entrance degree. It it's clearly stated on the website. We can agree or disagree about that requirement, but that's a other discussion.

[ECHIE]

@Hurdle, indeed as said above by Hank Moody, Cargolux has as requirement university entry level, equivalent to Atheneum or Gymnasium in the Netherlands. My excuses and maybe one day this will change.

[Hurdle]

Hi guys,

thanks for the reply, it is highly appreciated. Shame its like this, but it is as it is in this case. Better luck next time.

[Aeroshizzle]

Hi all,
I passed the MollyMawk and have been invited to the interview,
To any of the Cargolux guys and gals, is there any insider expansion or news that I could use at the interview to impress?

Or any other advice would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

AS

[final06]

Who do you want to impress with your desire to work under the new CV T&Cs?

Flying longhaul you should ask yourself if it would be a pleasant experience for me to sit together with you in a cockpit for 11 hours.

Anyway, good luck to you! ;-)

[747-8driver]

Final06 is right, it's not pleasant to sit next to him for 11 hours.
You would be far better off sitting next to me ;)
Regarding the new T&C, a deterioration compared to the ones we have but an improvement for a lot of people coming from short-haul.
Don't compare them with ours but just accept them or stay where you are.
Besides, it's not just about money right?

[Aeroshizzle]

Yes I can see that ^^

True the T&Cs have changed but haven't been given it directly so will make the judgement call when it comes. But would most likely be better than what I have now anyway,
I've been a contractor all my flying career unable to land a permanent contract, plus my wife works in lux so being based here would not only be a jump to the jumbo, but an opportunity to settle down too.
So let's see, I hope I'm Cargolux caliber and to see you all soon
👍

[16down2togo]

Aeroskizzle,
although I do not like the change of contract, there are numerous of
the new guys in a better spirit than some before and it's always what
you make of it for yourself.
As for the interview, be yourself, it's not rocket scientists that they are
looking for. You don't even have to sneak around the moving close to LUX
part since your wife is already working there!!!

[jeehaa]

It seems that as of yesterday, CLX is also accepting "school of higher general secundary education" as opposed to pre-University education. This has been sent by interpersonal to candidates who were not accepted to proceed earlier.

[elbe]

Good morning¡
Does anyone knows how long it takes for an answer (to proceed to the first step) since I applied?
Thnaks

[hamilton]

Can anyone advice how long does it take to well prepare mollymawk test having a reasonable time to study?is about 20 days enough?
Thanks for your reply
H

[Aeroshizzle]

For me, I had my application on file previously. And when the new requirements came, I up dated my info, and got a call about 3 weeks after.

MollyMawk was quite tough, 20 days should be fine. I had 2 weeks and it was enough for me.

[elbe]

Thanks for your the info Aeroshizzle!

[hamilton]

Aeroshizzle,thanks for your reply

[bafanguy]

Recent article. People are hired and then just no-show training ?:

"Aircargoeye.com has learned that some potential first officers – scheduled to undertake the airline’s training ahead of being employed – simply failed to turn up for the course."

https://aircargoeye.com/cargolux-flying-blind-amid-acute-pilots-shortage/

[final06]

Recent article. People are hired and then just no-show training?:

https://aircargoeye.com/cargolux-flying-blind-amid-acute-pilots-shortage/

Correct.

The article is spot on.

Just had GS-day and there were only 2 new F/Os scheduled for a type rating course A.
Normally it is 6.

The news has spread around that CLX management does not show ANY respect towards their pilots.

Why should someone sacrifice his entire private life, flying around the world in the shortest legally possible time, illegal back-to-back rostering, just fly, sleep, eat, sometimes not even having time for the gym, for 3000 € per month?

Why should someone fly longhaul for CLX without a chance to see the world anymore?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[bafanguy]

Correct.


The news has spread around that CLX management does not show ANY respect towards their pilots.

Why should someone sacrifice his entire private life, flying around the world in the shortest legally possible time, illegal back-to-back rostering, just fly, sleep, eat, sometimes not even having time for the gym, for 3000 € per month?

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."


Frederick Douglass

Douglass was addressing grander issues than the travails of airline pilots but the principle is exactly the same: if you'll agree to take a beating, all you can reasonably expect is further beatings. And you'll surely get them.

[16down2togo]

Just had the long IAH layover twice in the last 2 months, once with new guys who wanted to see the world and it was a blast and once with older guys who didn't show up once because they stayed in LUX time.
Don't try to fight a war against people which are joining now about the fight you have lost against management. The reasons for joining CV might be different from when you did it and certainly it's not these persons fault what conditions are there now but rather ours.!
since we desperately need new colleagues I'd appreciate any motivated new hire over an overly frustrated old one which still doesn't have the gut to leave a situation he sees as unbearable, which doesn't mean I do support it, but it's the status quo we have to fight and it doesn't help to sit there and quote you did it all right and every body else does it wrong.
In the history of CV there have been numerous different contracts which where always leveled at one point. Was it only mr you which joined at the right point and were you always in the front line fighting for it???
I'd like to see that you are one of the guys which actively fight in the union, otherwise, what are you complaining about?
I will surely not join you in the bashing of young colleagues which do join for a reason that you can't judge.
Again this is not to support what is going on in the company, but to blame it to the new hires which do take an opportunity, is the wrong approach.
It is the current situation we do have to fight for all our well being, not the new members which are certainly not responsible for it.
Frustration will not bring you any further my friend, it might just impact your professional judgement.

[16down2togo]

And sorry to pick on your nick,
final 06 always was, and will be a pain in the a.. until they finally level the hill!
As much as I enjoy it with 10.000+ hrs there for a change!!!

[final06]

@16down

Nice that seniority and companymindedness works for your.

However the forum is eager to hear your explanation why selected candidates don't show up for the type rating with no notice at all.

And why entry requirements are ridiculously low in these days.

And why the B-scalers tend to dine out in cheap hamburger eateries.

[KDC10]

@16down, you're spot on. I totally agree. Some older colleagues lost complete reality.

@final06, there's always time to workout when you're on the road. Total nonsense. It's all about priorities.

A happy and fit pilot.

[dudubrdx]

I've just received the fourth or fifth email asking me to chose a selection date for this psychometric testing in LUX.
So let me get this right, they want me to travel over there on my days OFF to take their mollymack whatever, to then have a shot at the interviews later on?
I wonder why people are not showing up for ground course!

[Aeroshizzle]

So let me get this right, they want me to travel over there on my days OFF to take their mollymack whatever, to then have a shot at the interviews later on?


Is it the first time you applied for any flying job? I asked for annual leave to do the entire process.
I want to fly for CargoLux, so isn't it fair that I have to go to their headquarters and meet them? The whole aviation recruitment world is to jump through hoops. BA, Easyjet, lufthansa, Norwegian . online tests/selection day, group assessment, interview, sim. Cargolux is no different.

[dudubrdx]

Does that include the interviews or did you have to come back for them on a later date?

[Aeroshizzle]

Does that include the interviews or did you have to come back for them on a later date?

Needed a total of 4 days
I came 1 day for the MollyMawk. Then once passed they gave me about 7 options to come again . for a block of 3 days.
Group assessment, interview, sim. Once passed, we have to do medical, which I did after the sim, with company doctor.
After the all clear, they gave me 3 start dates and to work around my notice period.

Smooth recruitment, helpful and accommodating

[hawkeye red]

Aeroshizzle....just out of curiosity, what is your aviation history, in terms of age, rating and hours ?

[AERO75]

good evening,

apllied a few weeks ago, and got an invitation. Actually I am not desperate, but would be more than happy to move closer home. I would greatly appreciate any infos concerning roster (days off), also as pm.

Thanks, happy landings.

[final06]

Douglass was addressing grander issues than the travails of airline pilots but the principle is exactly the same: if you'll agree to take a beating, all you can reasonably expect is further beatings. And you'll surely get them.

Some call it "race to the bottom".


For all new joiners (who are most welcome and desperately needed by the way :)) a little extract from our 2015-2018 Collective Work Agreement:

1.3.
The Parties recognize that the Company is operating in a cyclical and seasonal industry and that its results have recently been affected by an increasing difficult competitive environment as well as decreasing yields. Additionally, during the CWA period, the Company will face significant financial obligations related to committed investments necessary for the future development of the Company (such as the acquisition of new aircraft). If circumstances should warrant, the Parties agree to negotiate in good faith in view of adapting the CWA provisions to the change in circumstances. Any such review could include the working conditions and remuneration package foreseen hereafter.


May be you are also interested to know that CLX has some massive financial obligations (not only) regarding CV China coming up.

How about a scenario where Cargolux cannot pay in cash, but will transfer some aircraft to CV China?

The implication would be redundancies in LUX who will get laid off in a social plan, however will be offered a job in China next day.
Conditions "slightly" worse :}

[16down2togo]

final06
You seem to be one of those people who just love to listen to themselves.
Otherwise you would have read my comment instead of dropping as stupid a comment. Seniority and pink glasses don't work, because my schedule is as f...ed up as yours and if you had any adult insight you'd have recognized that in the first place.
I'm totally on you when it comes to why people turn down the opportunity but I'm fighting you on bashing young colleagues who do it. It's not their fault, rather ours, but you will probably never be in a position to understand that because you're to sorry about yourself while you are selling all your off days.
Sleep well and I do hope you will always find somebody responsible but yourself for your misery.
All the best....

[hawkeye red]

@aeroshizzle...

Nothing personal...but wasn't the entry requirement 3000 hours..??

[AERO75]

hello guys,

any chance to get a small insight into roster (off days) at cargolux.

highly appreciated

[hawkeye red]

Well...I'm just one of the guys having to guide you and others with very limited experience around the world....

[buzzc152]

Hi

Could someone please tell me the approximate total take home pay for a new FO (salary plus flight pay/per Diems etc).

[fda747]

About the same I'm paying my cleaning lady !

[Aeroshizzle]

Well...I'm just one of the guys having to guide you and others with very limited experience around the world....

Great, looking forward to your guidance.

Question: what do you think is a good experience to have to start Cargolux?

[hawkeye red]

....a lot lot more than you have....

[Aeroshizzle]

....a lot lot more than you have....

Luckily for me, you're not doing the recruitment :ok:

See you real soon captain

[AERO75]

....a lot lot more than you have....

Chuck Yeager is it you?

[hawkeye red]

The reason you got in is because experienced and qualified guys will not work under the conditions offered - you were not hired because of your qualifications, but rather as a simple sign of supply and demand....

[Aeroshizzle]

The reason you got in is because experienced and qualified guys will not work under the conditions offered - you were not hired because of your qualifications, but rather as a simple sign of supply and demand....

Ouch that hurt :=
I hope you put your request not to fly with juniors, would not want to be such a burden to you.

[buzzc152]

Would someone mind telling me how much an FO makes on top of the basic salary. I've been invited to assessment but really surprised at how low the starting salary is. It's a significant pay cut on my current job, but perhaps per diems, duty pay etc boosts it to a more realistic level ?

[Hank Moody]

Would someone mind telling me how much an FO makes on top of the basic salary. I've been invited to assessment but really surprised at how low the starting salary is. It's a significant pay cut on my current job, but perhaps per diems, duty pay etc boosts it to a more realistic level ?

Dear buzzc, please see my previous post on this tread. Coming to cargolux go get the bucks is a No go. But if you live close by or have other personal reason. I would say that makes more sense.

[baerj146]

Dear buzzc, please see my previous post on this tread. Coming to cargolux go get the bucks is a No go. But if you live close by or have other personal reason. I would say that makes more sense.

Off course because getting a 747 type rating is something that you get at every street corner...

If the aim of your life is to make money then you chose the wrong job!

[Indrapoera]

Ouch that hurt :=
I hope you put your request not to fly with juniors, would not want to be such a burden to you.


With your 2200 hours Avro time you should be ok, however you need to realise that not that long ago guys joining typically had around 5000+ hours 737/320 and in some cases substantial PIC time (that was the case in my TR group at least). However with the current deal they (apparently) don't find these type of candidates anymore..

Having said that, back in the early 2000's there was a whole bunch hired with 1500 hours turboprop, all of whom have become real nice and competent commanders. So even though hawk eye has a point, it's a question of supply and demand, you should take these comments with a pinch of salt and don't worry too much:E:ok:

[Cliff Secord]

Aeroshizzle. I wouldn't worry.

2000 jumbolina is a good starting block. An older 4 engine underpowered jet, flying into smaller airports- that is some good experience. No one was born knowing LH. Its one of those things where you have to get round the houses a few times to see how it's done, like any job in any industry. You don't pick these things up in a book or even 5000 hours pic in a piglet - it's one of those things, you do it for years you're gonna see some things and pick up the little quirks of the gig. Some crusty old gits in this industry make life harder than it needs be.

People having ago at experience is really a bent for their true frustration. That lower houred recruits are a sign that the terms and conditions have been damaged. This I have total sympathy for. That's not your fault though.

[hawkeye red]

"With your 2200 hours Avro time you should be ok, however you need to realise that not that long ago guys joining typically had around 5000+ hours 737/320 and in some cases substantial PIC time (that was the case in my TR group at least). However with the current deal they (apparently) don't find these type of candidates anymore..

Having said that, back in the early 2000's there was a whole bunch hired with 1500 hours turboprop, all of whom have become real nice and competent commanders. So even though hawk eye has a point, it's a question of supply and demand, you should take these comments with a pinch of salt and don't worry too much"

When we hired 1500 hour prop guys back then it was because we could not get any qualified people - they were not on the market. They were all given extensive training, we had our fair share of firm land (some in the category of hard landings), virtually turning the company into a flight school. Today there are plenty of experienced and even type rated guys on the market, but they would never work under these conditions.
You can argue that 2000 on an RJ is enough - out of experience I disagree, and there is IMHO no doubt that Cargolux is playing with fire, when hiring less experienced guys like aeroshizzle....

[final06]

Like the one in LBV?
Wrinkled hull and structure, almost a write off. :}

[hawkeye red]

Thanks final06....I believe that proves my point....

[Intrance]

Yes, because someone with 15000 hours, but maybe 5-10 landings a month in a busy year, could never run the risk of making a hard landing... :ugh:. Good attitude for experienced drivers, "it won't happen to me because I have more than 5000 hours, must be just the newbies" :E.

[hawkeye red]

Intrance...I'm not sure if you know how correct you are. I doubt it....

[Cliff Secord]

Hawk eye

I'm calling a certain amount of BS on your post. The Jumbo is just an aeroplane. What is it about 5000 pic that makes it enough? Why not 6000? What about those turboprops or regionals those kids joined. Should they not ask for 5000 hours pic time for the right seat too then?

No one came from the womb knowing how to fly the jumbo. I agree that straight out of flight school from a Seneca is hella way no. But at some point your 5000 PIC hour 737 dude perhaps maybe a little institutionalised and even find it harder to adopt than a guy who's naturally talented to learn with less experience, maybe 2-3000 hours flying around the strips in a small jet who's more like a sponge soaking this guff up. I think there's a tendency to gloss over the fact that everyone takes time to learn to land a new aircraft if they've not flown. Try landing a turboprop after coming off a jumbo. You'll look like a dick the first few times. Suck it up. It's called doing something new. We've all done it.

I agree some varied level of experience is a good thing when relevant and proportionate. But it's clownary to say you need experience for at random xyz level with some pic on xyz type for the right seat and that's it. No one would do anything in this job as no one would ever have the experience to start. This jobs full of people making up their own minds what relevant experience is without ever having been in the others shoes and seeing what they've been through.

A hard landing proves nothing. Plenty experienced drivers have driven these things into mountains. Careful with that supposition.

Attitude and crap crm are worse than experience levels. Whats worse a new bloke who is unsure and asks or a crusty old arse burger who thinks he knows but won't be asked without giving back attitude?

But I really call out the BS that you need to be some sort of mega astronaut PIC experienced God to fly LH. I'm a LH LS driver and it seems once people make it onto LH they develop short memories and some sort of a God complex. At least keep it real and say what's really bothering you. In a company the terms got slammed. Been there. It's a crap cake. The sooner pilots stop bitching about the symptoms as if they're the problem and tackle what is really at stake the sooner the root cause is focused on.

[final06]

I'm a LH LS driver... bla bla bla

How nice for you.:D

By the nonsense you are writing it is pretty obvious that you are not flying for CLX and thus don't understand the complexity of our operation.

Why do you (and a few others) try to put us in the "old man bad attitude bad crm" corner when we point out some very valid points?

Bad attitude is more often a problem on the RHS.

Some of the 200 hr wonderkids now got 2000 hrs and they are still convinced they are special and gods' gift to aviation.

Instead of behaving like real men they behave like pussies.

They show all symptons of modern society kids raised by overprotecting parents and are sometimes not even able to take a simple roster change without crying.

Or they follow the order of their girlfriend and report sick when their roster plans them to fly to some "not so nice" destination.

The list is quite long actually.

Due to the problems we have by hiring low experience levels, at least our Head of Training finally understood that CLX cannot lower the entry requirements endlessly.

[Intrance]

Probability is high that you won't be put into that "old man bad attitude/CRM" if there is no premature judgement going on here about someone with 2000+ hours joining...

I'd suggest to leave that judgement until they are in the seat next to you if you don't want to be generalized the same way.

[hawkeye red]

#final06...the next beer is on me...spot on...:D

[Aeroshizzle]

@indrapoera
@cliff second
@intrance

Thanks guys for the support.
As always, pinch of salt is a must with these replies.
Whatever hawk, final or anyone says is never taken to heart anyway.
Still got the job, still going to fly.

Besides, mommy and daddy pay for my rent, my car and all my bills. Flying the 747 is just for fun. I can't wait for the warm welcome, I'll record it with my go pro so I can cherish the moment.

I'm done now, I'll be lurking in the background until something useful or interesting is said.

Peace

[Cliff Secord]

How nice for you.:D




Ha ha :} made me laugh, fair play. I'll admit does read like that.



By the nonsense you are writing it is pretty obvious that you are not flying for CLX and thus don't understand the complexity of our operation.

Why do you (and a few others) try to put us in the "old man bad attitude bad crm" corner when we point out some very valid points?

Bad attitude is more often a problem on the RHS.

Some of the 200 hr wonderkids now got 2000 hrs and they are still convinced they are special and gods' gift to aviation.

Instead of behaving like real men they behave like pussies.

They show all symptons of modern society kids raised by overprotecting parents and are sometimes not even able to take a simple roster change without crying.

Or they follow the order of their girlfriend and report sick when their roster plans them to fly to some "not so nice" destination.

The list is quite long actually.
P.

2000 hours = pussies? That's probably got more to do with character than flying hours.

I'm not crap talking you chief. You have my sympathy re terms. Pilots should stick together and support each other, but this is an open forum and anyone is welcome to debate. Someone crap talking a new hire over experience is bad form and attracts a challenge on a public forum. Useless unions and business practice getting away with murder is what's doing our industry in.

[Icelanta]

Some guys on this topic really need to get off their throne.
The Airline I fly for has been recruiting and training people with less than 2000h. Jet. Or even TP for years, without problems, and we fly to very challenging places, Worldwide.
And please do not start proclaiming that Cargolux standards are higher, trust me, they are not. Not at all.

The B747 is a great aircraft and easy to fly. Almost like a B737 but more stable.

" having to guide you around the World"..?! Seriously mate? In reality, Long-Haul flying is NOT that hard, cpdlc has significantly eased comms enroute, most airports now have RNAV approaches if not equipped with ILS, weather you also have in Europe,... and training takes care of the peculiarities and remaining challenges.
You do not want to guide? Then don't be the Captain.

Greetz,

A B747-400 Captain, flying for an EASA airline.

[Jetmga]

Hi guys
I have just been envied to take the mollymawk soon. Does Someone knows the minimum score in science? A lot of new staff for me..😅
Good weekend for all

[fda747]

Jetmga,
Appalling English stay where you are :mad:

[AERO75]

May someone please confirm:

The initial pay for new joiners at cargolux italy is higher than the pay for newbies at cargolux classic?!

Thanks

[final06]

No. It is even lower.

[F2L]

I just receive an invitation for psychometrics test in Luxembourg, anyone knows how the process is? Do I need to come back home After psychometrics or all the assessment is done in a consecutive days?

Regards...

[trancada]

Cargolux still's has a problem with lack of pilots, specially F/O. Flights are constatly delayed, rosters changing constatly , according to some news, in the cargo world dedicated press.
Augmented crew are mostly with F/O.
The EASA flight crew limits are completly facke. Doesn't contribuit for a correct fatigue managment. With 3 pilots per flight you can extend dutty period for more than 12 hours, do 2 landings, after a "red eye"flight , and then continue to the final destination.
Can you imagine doing a cargo flight in these conditions? I belive it's hard.
This company has serious problems with fatigue issues. Their union pilots are aware of it. But the managment seems, that ignores it. People don't understand why?
I know some pilots with a lot of flight experience, flew long haul, on Airbus and Boeing, that simply applied, but didn't receive an answer from Cargolux.
They are motivated people, and Cargolux could take an advantage from it, instead hiring F16 pilots.
Why they aren't flexible? There is no age limit, but seems that they do.
Any pilot with 45 years can give at least 20 years more of his life to CLX.

[ray cosmic]

Trancada,
Some of your points are slightly exaggerated, although nobody will say EASA FTL is a good thing.
I can imagine no airline is interested in highly qualified pilots who are around 20 years older than the average person being hired if they run by a seniority list.
The jury is still out with proof whether the lack of widebody or cargo experience is actually an issue. Most guys I have seen being hired over the last years were all very capable and social persons, so the drama seems to be slightly out of place.

[Hank Moody]

-EASA FTL is a disaster for Cargolux. ''So to say they are exaggerated''. Please explain yourself? Because everyone I fly with is dead tired of dutys of 15-16 hours with multiple sectors. those duty are now very common. dutys like; LUX-KMQ-ICN(15-16 hours duty. and they are done with three man crew. where a Pax airline does europe-asia(japen, korea ectra) just ONE sector with min 3 or 4 man crew.

-training at Cargolux is really great. most of the trainers are great people. transition for 320,737 to B747. is more or less the same as turboprob to B747. is that a good system? is it fair to the people coming for turboprob?(its like one or two sims session extra and couple of extra line sectors compared to 737 or 320). those people coming from turnoprop are all really good people and the trainers are all great, and doing there best. but you have to ask yourself, how is the training system working out? bottom line is 'money and time'. more training mean more money and time.

[papazulu]

Cargolux still's has a problem with lack of pilots, specially F/O. Flights are constatly delayed, rosters changing constatly , according to some news, in the cargo world dedicated press.

Read that too and whether it's true or not, the proof is in the pudding. They put down some reasonable minimums i.e. the 1500 hrs jet or heavy-TP and I wonder, given what said above, if the requirement is set in stone or no.

Anyone with hands-on experience on the matter?

Safe flying

PZ :cool:

[LBR]

I agree with Ray.
Trancada, if you are not fit enough to continue after the first leg, "to the extent that the flight may be endangered", you are supposed to "not perform duties on an aircraft" and take a crew rest.
That's your responsibility!
If you can't handle the responsibility that comes with the job it might be time for a career change.
But first try some "Controlled Rest on Flight Deck" when you feel tired.

[Hank Moody]

LBR,
what do you think if you have standard rotations on regular basis, you know its way to much regarding tiredness, should you just take your ''responsibility'' and park the aircraft and go into rest on a regular basis?

should a rotation in general not be so tired that you have to think parking the aircraft every time? whether we like it or not, if we park a aircraft because the rotation is to tired. i bet everyone feels a extreme pressure not to do it. Ofc there are always supermans who doesnt feel that pressure from the office. but im not talking about those supermans, talking about a normal human pilot.

i wish, i had the courage like you, LBR

[Hank Moody]

Ray,
I hope you put your words into action. if we all where doing it what you where saying, i agree with you. I feel we as pilots has a responsibility to say no when we are really tired. but I feel the office has also a responsibility not to make rotations, knowing it will be very tiring. because that means you are put in a corner with intent. I have to say the most colleague speak all agree that giving away or duty times limitaions in our CWA made our work way more tiring. I dont need to tell you, the enormous increase in fatigue reports. but lets hope in the future its changes a bit

[final06]

We pilots are our worst enemies.

We have some 100 colleagues at CV who are selling their OFF- and VAC-days on a regular basis.

"Now it's the time to make money!" or "I make the same money as a captain!" [as F/O]

These people pass a dangerous message to the management:
"It is not all that bad" or "EASA FTL - no problem".

Quite a few of these get nicer trips than the rest of us which are even withheld by crewplanning to have "something nice" to offer.

These short sighted "colleagues" do not see the point that they pay a hefty price for their short-term greed with health issues and expensive divorces when their last paychecks are taken into account for the alimony they will pay.

As long as the company can count on these people nothing will change.
No roster stability and not enough crews.

I found this gem in the Middle East forum on a similar problem:

"wanna know why?

because we, humans, are stupid, selfish and greedy.
and we, pilots, are humans.

and that's why."

[LBR]

Hank, had to do it once.
Planned FDP 15:20
Started with some delay at the first station.
Colleague who took the first rest came back after 4 hours saying that he couldn't sleep.
I was getting tired at the end of the first leg so we took the decision to have a layover in OVB.
True, it's not easy as you know it might cause delays and mess up your colleague's schedules.
On the other hand, it is your duty as a crew member to take those decisions.

[Aeroshizzle]

Am I naive to think that the more pilot recruitment the better the rosters? Or will it never go back to how I was?
*it

[indiazulu10]

Am I naive to think that the more pilot recruitment the better the rosters? Or will it never go back to how I was?
*it

Aeroshizzle, congrats !!! I passed on mollymawk test and have to face the interview now. do you have any tips captain?? what type of ATPL Questions have they asked?
:ok:

best regards.

[final06]

Am I naive to think that the more pilot recruitment the better the rosters? Or will it never go back to how I was?
*it

May be too optimistic.
This is an ongoing problem. We never had enough crews, and we are not talking about a decent and working standby system.
We had contract captains that spent the better part of 10 years in the company.
F/Os were not amused to say the least.

[Flightwatch]

May be too optimistic.
This is an ongoing problem. We never had enough crews, and we are not talking about a decent and working standby system.
We had contract captains that spent the better part of 10 years in the company.
F/Os were not amused to say the least.

I resemble that remark!

Did my 10 years and had a great time thanks to guys like you. Won't happen again unless KLM are still throwing guys out before 65. Don't think I would enjoy it much nowadays though, too much work not enough play (like 5 days layover dunnunda!).

[16down2togo]

flightwatch you are so right! Left at the right time, this company has changed to it's worse, management and pilot attitude wise.
On the other hand people are starting to live in the past and not fighting the
current situation, blaming it to the union which is fighting hard.
The biggest thread in Eu ops is the bloody EASA, just doing what the companies
want, designing rules that might work for Easy and Ryan but do kill you on long haul.
Enjoy your retirement! Good timing!!!

[final06]

@flightwatch
Indeed, it was great fun to fly with the ex-BA guys.

However at CV they have been occasionally used by management as leverage against the pilot group.

All the best for your retirement! :)

[CharlyGolf07]

I am applying too, just right now, awaiting a reply.

When i read here the latest comments from2016/2017, then i can't get rid of the feeling it is all so political. But young guys asking substantial questions are not heard.

Ok, we understood that conditions seem to became worse or tighter than before.
And we all know that cargo aviation is not the easiest one.

But when i look back to the places where i worked for or am talking with other pilots in some layover pubs, then i barely find anyone who is satisfied. The majority of pilots seem to complain about their rosters, payment, training dept or whatever.
And maybe it is good so, because without complaints there wouldn't be anybimprovement.

Well, for my point, i will just await if i will be invited. And then see further. All the same discussion i had before already with previous airlines.

[fda747]

And your point is ? :ugh:

[trancada]

Cargolux signs equity contract for launch of Henan Cargo Airlines ? Air Cargo News (http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airlines/freighter/single-view/news/cargolux-signs-equity-contract-for-launch-of-henan-cargo-airlines.html)

So the brand CARGOLUX CHINA will never happen?
For those pilots who where interested in Cargolux China, things might change?

[HURZ]

What you have been provided with is information that led to the current state of affairs by the ones that have a couple years within CV. They see a decline in conditions which in the grand scheme of things seem to make little sense. The newer guys might lay low in their first year, but feedback on the line is that their life is really pretty tough. Rosterchanges, little off time, not enough money. Nothing one cannot survive, but the better half at home is living through this tough time as well and they might not be as patient. Unless you did this kind of operation before, seriously have a sitdown at home to see if they like to play along. For us to fly the longhaul takes a toll on the private side which is often overlooked, and by the time you realize it it might be too late.
In effect you will have 6 days per month you can count on to be home - and the vacation when you have so scheduled. This means anything you need to do, such as medical, accountant, medical specialist or anything not easily changed needs to take place in those few days. In hindsight your rosters will look alright, but the inability to plan anything is something you'll have to get used to. Most of us are still frustrated though when the FOD get changed or a flight is delayed into the off days or vacation.
I have been too long with CV to know how it is "out there" now, but the input from the newer guys is that they did not expect it to be this hard living the CV life.


and that's why I left CV...

[mansaloco]

And where did you go if I may ask?

[CV_Insider]

Cargolux China was a project name until the official shareholder agreement was signed in June 2017. Nothing in regards to the project has changed except that an official name for the future airline has been published. Chinese regulations are very strict when it comes to the approval of names for an airline. Henan Cargo Airlines will be owned 75% by chinese shareholders, mainly HNCA located in the Henan province and 25% by Cargolux Airlines Int. S.A. As from the very beginning intended the operating base of Henan Cargo Airlines will be Zhengzhou and therefore all employee contracts will be chinese contracts without any association to the Luxembourgish social system. Start/End of Duty however will be Luxembourg on both schemes. 14 On/12 Off and 18 On/17 Off. A global health insurance and LOL will be provided by Henan Cargo Airlines.

[747-8driver]

The Cargolux pilots that voiced their interest in joining the airline in China for a rapid command opportunity might be overthinking the risk involved now.
Are there any guarantees that you can keep everything you have in Lux and get even more by being upgraded in China? Off-days in Europe, social security in Lux, health insurance for your family in Lux? And after you got your command and your hours in china, you will return to Lux like you were never gone?
I don't think so and would be quite surprised if this would materialize like announced.

According to the present CWA you would lose your seniority after having been on unpaid leave exceeding a consecutive period of 3 years.
Better think again before leaving CLX.

[Knee Trembler]

Just wondered if anyone is attending next weeks assessment (24-26.7)?

Feel free to PM.

KT

[CharlyGolf07]

What do you want to know exactly?

[Jetmga]

Hi guys,
Does anyone know if there is an ATPL test during these 3 days? If yes, how many questions?

Nice week for all!

[Jetmga]

Thanks 👍🏽 It Looks like no one wants to give any tip about the screening...

[Aeroshizzle]

Hi guys,
Does anyone know if there is an ATPL test during these 3 days? If yes, how many questions?

Nice week for all!

Yes
About 20
If I remember correctly was 1 or 2 questions from each atpl topic. If you use 'ace the technical interview book' or Google They have similar questions.
Good luck!

[final06]

Seems they cannot find the right people anymore:

https://www.wort.lu/en/luxembourg/airlines-cargolux-to-hold-roadshows-in-november-to-hire-pilots-59e86a5c56202b51b13c57b3

Caveat emptor:

"The additional manpower is needed to cover the projected network for the next years and support the diversification of our operations."

Tststs...

[balthazar1]

I'm looking for "concrete" informations about the lifestyle and work conditions in Cargolux.
They are hiring First Officer, and I would like to apply.
But, after reading the 73 pages of this post, I'm not really sure if it will be a good idea.
Some of the posts on pprune can be very negatives as they are written by non-motivated pilots, but always argumented by other pilots happy of the company.
What is the stand by time or distance to be called ? I live at a distance of 90 minutes drive from Luxembourg Airport.
Any informations about the roster, rest outstation ?

[final06]

It all depends on your personal and family situation.
Also on your previous flying. Different perspectives.

We have new joiners who were used to being at home every night in their previous job. Guess how they (and their families) feel about flying longhaul?

How do you or your family cope with the permanent roster changes?

How do you cope with 24 hr rest periods, i.e. reporting for the next duty when you are tired again?

Cargolux is no longer the airline it used to be.
Still for some it is a good gig despite the fact that most of the great layovers we used to have are gone - forever.

[Doppio]

I've been invited to do the Mollymawk as part of the screening for Henan Cargo Airlines as DEC... Are there any places online to practise this test apart from the Mollymawk website itself?

Also, does anyone know if the entire screening proces for Henan is the same as if I would be applying for Cargolux? That would help tremendously with the preparation.

Please reply or DM me with any information.

Thanks!

[hawkeye red]

Doppio....have they offered you to fly as DEC with Cargolux until Henan starts up ?

[Doppio]

No they haven't; if they do I'll probably refuse. I do not wish to get stuck at Cargolux when Henan fails to start up...

[hawkeye red]

Doppio....since there is no confirmed start up date for Henan, and considering that the start up has already been postponed a few years, what are they planning for you until they actually do start up ?

[final06]

They will not fly at CV. :}

Most likely they will be boroughed to another chinese 747 operator like Yangtze River Express until the operation gets started in 2020 (if at all).

They are still facing a lot of problems and haven't even applied for an AOC yet.

[zeedee]

Hi everybody,
has anyone conducted recently the second stage of the assessment in Luxemburg for Cargolux?
If yes, could you please give some info on what to expect in the group exercise/role play and interview.
Would be very much appreciated for some info!

[TheRednosedReindeer]

I recently flew with a few "new guys" that joined CV in 2017. My advice after these conversations is, read the f****** CWA all the way to the end, before you sign the contract (and especially before you cancel your previous employment, if any).
Those I'm talking about, apparently didn't do so, and were quite surprised afterwards, how unpleasant the day-to-day operation turned out.
With the so-called "spool-up" conditions, where you don't get a Rest-before-Off day (RBO) at first, plus a week less vacation or so, the overall flying is quite a bit more intense than for us senior guys (which is though already). You are just too long available to Crew planning in a block, so they will push you around with changes upon changes, until finally your next block of fixed Off days comes along. It's a bit like flying long-haul-ad-hoc-executive. To a degree of 50-90% the trips initially assigned are wildcards, mere placeholders to be replaced with anything, usually one day before departure (Crew Damage Control can't plan any further ahead at present).

Still the job can be interesting for many of those, who are currently slave-serving for some early-captitlism outfit with truck-driver pay-scales and no social security, like I hear about EW Austria i.e.

But, unless you are desperate to find any job asap, I would suggest the following:
Go for the test, and if you pass, get access to a copy of the current CWA and study it thoroughly before the interview. Then take a good second (and third) thought, if the conditions for new hires after 2016 will really be sustainable to you (given the extreme instability of the rosters, which they may not tell you about in the interview).
If you have any doubts afterwards, state politely at the interview, that you will be more than happy to work for Cargolux under conditions like the senior guys do, but feel unable to burn yourself out on what is presently on the table for new hires.

[747-8driver]

You'll be flying a full month more (and earn less) than we do.
I don't think the sometimes extreme roster instability will end anytime soon.
When you have a trip with Floating Off Days afterwards it's best not to plan anything on those Off Days to avoid disappointment.
One colleague was supposed to be Off for Xmas, got a back to back and was home again after NYE.
Imagine how this must have been for the person involved and his family.
Not trying to be negative here but that's just the way it is...
Sure hope the ALPL will be able to get rid of this ridiculous b-contract but I doubt they/we will succeed.
It should be their first priority!

[final06]

Sad to say, but all of the above is 100% true.
It used to be a great company to work for.

https://aircargoeye.com/fatigued-unhappy-pilots-a-bleak-warning-for-cargolux/

https://aircargoeye.com/christmas-woes-at-cargolux/

https://aircargoeye.com/cargolux-flights-cancelled-cargo-grounded/

[rotorcloud]

I am trying to leave this Company after more than 10 years because u will simply die here before retirement! It is a ****hole! Stay away and go for a more healthy and social 5/4 roster on a more valuable Rating like the Airbus. And remember that you`ll be kicked out of the Company when you are sick too often. Even we had people who suffered from cancer, Luxemburg law allows to simply fire you when more than a year seriously sick.

[fda747]

" ****hole" is an understatement :mad:

[Banana Joe]

Given that many seem to be leaving now, what would the time to command be for a new joiner? Not interested in even trying at the moment even though I admit I am looking for new opportunities.

[747-8driver]

About 15 years.

[TheRednosedReindeer]

The time from entry to upgrade is always hard to predict exactly, and I personally believe that 15 years might be slightly exaggerated - in the end it all depends on future development of the company, plus their willingness to hire at least the amount of people that they can provide training for themselves.

As a matter of fact, I haven't seen anybody hired 2001 or later who managed faster than 10 years. On the other hand, a big number of captains who joined CV from 1997-2001 is now in their 50ies and will retire within the next 10 years. Flight Ops Crisis Management yet has to come up with a concept how to ramp up training volume in order to replace those.

But then there is another problem, that they almost completely removed the horizontal move from FO to Cpt pay scale (for new hires from 2016 on). Which means, that after an upgrade after 10 years, you will approximately earn 1000€ net more, that's it.

If that is worth the extra responsibility or offers an interesting perspective, I leave up to you.

[Wireless]

Apologies for being off topic, report the comment to the mods if it needs to be removed.

Anyway,if anyone knows an accountant familiar with both UK and Luxembourg tax law (loopholes), can you please pm me. Thanks.

High Aeroshizzle. I lived in Uk and worked in Lux for CV few years ago. Short end is, don’t try and loophole it if you’re living in the UK and working there. If there’s one place you’d be mad to try and loop hole it is properly living in UK and working in Lux unless you like being harassed. HMRC are aware you earn in Lux as you will have to declare it. What really stokes their fire is you have to hold a Luxembourg bank account to work for cv.

Unless it’s changed, we have one of the worst bilateral tax agreements. Unlike countries like Germany you still pay any tax due back in the UK, minus the tax you paid in Lux. So nett result is you pay the same amount as if you’d earned it in the UK.

Solution that keeps you away from HMRC is do it safely and live in Europe or have an apartment there that is your full time home, somewhere like Trier nearby. I think in Germany if you’ve paid tax in Lux, they don’t hit you for German taxes, unlike our robbing lot (let’s ignore the Cayman Islands and pick on the little guys)

[Flying.Coyote]

Can we say the union is crap ? (Going with the BS-contracts )

[ChrisWithWings]

Hello to all.

From my actual position, Cargolux still looks like an alternative to me. Following the thread for a while, I know that there some problems with the company (roster, decreasing conditions, etc.) and that people are leaving. The interesting question to me is now, what kind of people are leaving (captains, senior F/Os, etc.) and to which airlines they are leaving because it might make sense to apply directly to these companies where the guys with "more experience" are going.

Thank you for the help and a lot of honest answers in this thread.

[final06]

Norwegian
Korean Airlines
Emirates
Etihad
Ryanair
Turkish Airlines
Silkway West
[not complete]

This does not imply that these airlines are much better. It all depends on the personal situation and how desperate/exhausted/sick-of-constant-roster-changes-that-screw-your-private-life/young/old these colleagues were.

If you describe your personal situation it would be easier to give you sound advice.
Our new Citation guys seem to be quite happy at CV. They earn a few € more and the aircraft is bigger. If this is all that counts.

[AERO75]

I know some guys who wanna join Cargolux from the ME 3. Unfortunately to get off for the Cargolux assessment, with the roster they are flying, is quite challenging, not to say impossible without calling sick.

[final06]

Sure.
The middle east slaves :ugh: would like to come back to Europe.

However joining a cargo carrier in times when Trump begins a trade war with China and the rest of the world is probably not a smart career move.

[ChrisWithWings]

Thank you for the quick answers.

@final06:
Actually, I have approx. 1300 hours on 737 and total 2100, flying for a carrier where I don't beleave that they will survive the next bigger crisis and I don't like to be in a situation where I have to look for a new job during a crisis. I know that there will be no absolute job security on the flight deck. But I think you can control a little bit of the risk. I share your concerns regarding Trump and the world trade. But I also think that there is a reasonable likelihood that during next election the democrates will come to power again and everything will change to an open market. Furthermore, the Chinese also need the open trade to work against their debts. In regard to Ryanair, I am really interested cocnerning their new contracts because I think it canalso move the whole market a little bit.
I guess that you (final06: Rwy06 LUX?) work or have worked for Cargolux. How would you consider the future demand in Cargolux considering the leavings and retirements and maybe the upgrade chances considering these concerns (I aware the upgrade topic was discused from time to time, but with the new situation of the leavings things might have changed). Furthermore, are there any news reagrding Cargolux China?

Actually, for me it's collecting information to make a reasonable decision. The fact of the leaving is a warnign sign to me, but as often mention it depends on wher you coming from.

Anyway, already many thanks for your information in this thread.

[final06]

Some comments:
A lot of guys will retire in appr. 10 yrs time.
CV hired 100+ pilots in the last 24 months on the B-scale. Hiring is still going on.
Predictions for upgrade scenarios would be speculative to say the least.
One thing to keep an eye on is the outcome of the next CWA.
The actual CWA plus EASA FTL are no joy.
Under these conditons you would upgrade with a salary plus of 1500€. (It used to be a horizontal move on the seniority list.)
Worldwide demand is growing but not in Europe.
I have seen quite a few carriers go belly up in no time. So don't wait for the democrats. On the other side CLX is "too big to fail" for LUX.
But they do not need 25+ aircraft necessarily. LUX airport serves every cargo airline which brings business. Also our worst competitors.
CV China is a white elephant so far. Or a Yeti as you wish. Some claim the project is still alive. I do not see this materialize.
If you live within 2-3 hrs driving from LUX it might be well worth to apply if you fulfill the requirements (1500 hrs 737 f.e.).

However I would like to encourage my colleagues to give their input too.

[AERO75]

good evening gents,

what is the average gross salary a fo may expect? is there any experience extra pay?

thanks

[Procusto]

- A 737 type rating is by far better than a 747 type rating and slightly worse than an A320 TR. The market is tight and there are plenty of opportunities for 737 jockeys, like Norwegian or Jet2. By your level of experience, I presume that you are young. I don't see a major crisis in the following three years. Thereby, calm down and think about what you really would like to do. Life is a journey and you must make the most of it.

- According to the rumours, six or seven pilots had resigned in less than two weeks. Nonetheless, I receive farewell emails from colleagues on a weekly basis: a worrisome symptom. The working atmosphere is far from being optimal.

- The next CWA could or could not improve the current working conditions. Nonetheless, this company is not going to be what it was ten years ago. Besides, the Chinese are shareholders of Cargolux. The implications of this are unknown to the employees. If I were you, I would better forget about Cargolux China.

-Take your own decisions. Try to contact by Linkedin to a new joiner to get fresh information about how is life under the new scheme. Be aware of the omissions and inconsistencies of public claims and disclosed compensation.

I wish you luck and all the best, Chris

[ChrisWithWings]

@final06:

A possible new CWA might be a good point to be considered, you are right. During my research, I only found a statement of the LCGB in the newsletter (01/2016) regarding the changes of the CWA. As far as I can remember there wasn't stated when there will be new CWA negotiations. Do you have any idea when a new CWA (negotiations) will come?
I have read some statements of the LCGB. It seems to me that the CV's management stayed very strong while the union made the compromises (they mentioned a compromise of around 10 million € from their side), especially against new joiners. Furthermore, they said that they finally agreed to the CWA, although they know that there are some important points to be changed and improved. This doesn’t sound like a good union’s work. From this point of view, do you think a new CWA will bring improvements or even more decreasing conditions (and therefore joining as soon as possible would be better, if I finally decide to do so)?

@Aero75

Did you have look on the CV’s webpage? They publish some of their conditions (Unfortunately, I am not allowed to post web-links. But google for “cargolux working conditions”). I don’t know, but I think, these are based on the actual CWA.

[final06]

CWA -> 3 years
Short version:
Mistakes have been made, but the other union had the majority in the delegation and was legally able to sign the CWA without our consent.
Negotiations starting soon.
Management has 100+ ideas how to bring our conditions further down.
Our own colleagues betraying us while selling their OFF days left, right and center, also in critical times.
New generation not interested in politics.

Did you notice that our profession is in a downward spiral since many years?
Not only our profession, probably everyones in these times of accelerated capitalism and greedy managers.

[ChrisWithWings]

Final 06,

I had to laugh when I read your last sentences because I totally agree with you. BTW, I think it’s worth to mention that I am not that young anymore (mid 30th), although a started commercial flying a little bit later and therefore lacking a little bit of the “between the lines experience” in this branch. But that’s why I am here and asking questions. The point you raised, that also other branches are going down, can even be extended to the government and all the things that are going wrong in the society at all. But considering the fact nearly every branch in a downward spiral, I think our branch is still on the upper end of the conditions compared to the majority of the other branches. Of course, there are some other jobs and branches, which are better than aviation but if you really want to break the circle at least for yourself, you have to become a “skilled worker” and move to Canada or Australia. And even there, you will have some kind of fight.

If we can change something in our system than only to a very little extent. Therefore, most of us try to make the best out of the situation. That might also explain a little bit why colleagues are selling OFF days. So, where is the difference between the colleagues and the “greedy managers”. And let me honest with you, I did this also two time for longer flight to get the hours, although I am aware about the adverse “political statement”.

If I got it right, the CWA is valid until winter 2018. This matchs may planning to start my application (if I do) during and of this year. Maybe, I will have an idea what coming next with CV.

Another question that is a little bit important for my decision: What is your opinion about an additional job in the office, especially in the safety department? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to become a manager. It’s just because I am interested in the topic of safety and want to have a plan B in case of losing my medical or reducing long-haul flying when getting older (something like 50% office and 50% flying).

However, until now thanks again for the honest replies.

[final06]

Indeed, there are ample opportunities to work "in the office".
You would fly (and earn) less but the health effects are very positive.
This is why the training department is quite popular - in some cases regardless of qualification.
Safety department has plenty of staff now but is not impossible to achieve.

Good luck to you with your next career moves! :ok:

[Tommy Gavin]

Is it true Cargolux is adding an additional (ex-)TNT -ERF?

[T.A.T]

LX-KCV Dunno where the lady's coming from.

[jeehaa]

LX-KCL, ex OO-THD

[trancada]

Tomorrow and Thursday there are some roadshows in Madrid.

If if someone goes , can you give a feedback after?

[Aeroshizzle]

Anybody went to the road show in London Stansted? And how was it?

[trancada]

Anybody went to the road show in London Stansted? And how was it?

All of them are the same.

I know who went to Madrid.
They are adding 3 more 747-400 next year.
First year the salary is low,3900 net +1400 per diems, first year. If you have kids the state sponsors each with 300€ per month. Schools in Luxembourg are free. Every year you have an increment in the salary.
But to rent an apartment 2 rooms is quite expensive, so the option maybe to live in Germany, or Belgium, it is 1/2 of the price.
Fly around the world , be prepared for roster changes, sunddenly a business opportunity can appear. Example you’re in VCP, and your roster is VCP-SCL, you may have to go EZE first to load a new cargo before flying to SCL. Sometimes an ACMI operation, charter flights.
Expect to work with various cultures.
Company is not very flexible to swap rosters between colleges. The company offers good opportunities , for the F/O , to do some ground duties. Flight instruction and support.
Traveling facilities , with Cargolux , Luxair and SN BRUSSELS.

[trancada]

Cargolux swoops on freighters as it looks to build flexible capacity ? Air Cargo News (http://www.aircargonews.net/news/airline/freighter-operator/single-view/news/cargolux-swoops-on-freighters-as-it-looks-to-build-flexible-capacity.html)

[trancada]

https://spectrumaviation.aero/pilot_jobs/cargolux-b747-400-captains/

1 year only ?

[Procusto]

With 10 years to command you would think there are many suitable candidates for the left seat. What’s going on at CV?

Work-to-the-rule in full effect now.

[ogorek]

Do you know if there is any bond for the TR?

[trancada]

4 years bond

[flydog]

anybody been for assessment recently? how long between first batch of tests and second interview etc., when are classes planned for?

[Central Skies]

Do you know if there is any bond for the TR?

Yes, bond. I think it was three or four years.

[Fittipaldi]

Hi all,

Can anybody tell me how to prepare for the Mollymawk test @ Cargolux?

Thx! :-)

[Doppio]

Hi all,

Can anybody tell me how to prepare for the Mollymawk test @ Cargolux?

Thx! :-)

Once you're signed and paid up for it the test includes it's own preparation tests and exams.

[Hank Moody]

What is your feeling regarding CWA negotiations? Any news expected in the coming 3 months?

Im afraid nothing is going to happen in the next three month. Expect some news late 2019. The process is going to take a lots of time. Nobody knows what to expect. Since the process is just starting. But we are extremely short of pilots

[trancada]

Any news of the new CWA. Will they increase the salaries ?

[trancada]

Another question.
Did anyone of you had a lot of flying hours more than 5000 , in Airbus FBW, like 320/330 or 340 and changed to Boeing. What hwere the chalanges that you faced?
Operational Philosofy is completly diferent.

I am curious about it .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUwsrBkP6NA

[trancada]

Here you can see:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVIpgSUNyBw

[Aeroshizzle]

Hahahahaha

[trancada]

Seems there are small improvement for F/O salaries:

Comparing values presented in ROADSHOWS .
In May 1st year 49935 EUR; Cargolux WEBSITE(today Octiber 2018) 51183 EUR;
2nd year 59372 EUR; " " 60856 EUR;
3rd year 62836 EUR; " " 64407 EUR;
4th year 66390 EUR; " " 68050 EUR;
5th year 75927 EUR; " " 77824 EUR;

[747-8driver]

That's not an improvement.
It's just the Index which was 794.54 and was increased to 814.40
On the same site where you got that info from it says:
As per Luxembourg law, salaries are adjusted in line with the evolution of the cost of living (Indexation): If the consumer price index increases by 2.5 % during the previous semester, salaries are normally adjusted by the same proportion.

[Angel`s Playmate]

I see them advertising for TR DEC's for at least 4 months now. Obviously they are not getting any one to sign up.

Any particular reason ?

[747-8driver]

Maybe they realise that they are not welcome.
We have enough first officers who can be upgraded.
I do not understand why a company like Cargolux takes DEC's.
As you might understand it pisses off the first officers who are close to their upgrade...

[flydog]

I applied as DEC for the last 2 years and recently was told they definitely do not employ DEC you have to be FO, be interested to see if anyone knows any DECs that joined the company in last few years?
Besides the usual reason for DECs is that the FOs don't have enough hours for the insurance, it has nothing to do with ability.

[johnny73]

Seems there are small improvement for F/O salaries:

Comparing values presented in ROADSHOWS .
In May 1st year 49935 EUR; Cargolux WEBSITE(today Octiber 2018) 51183 EUR;
2nd year 59372 EUR; " " 60856 EUR;
3rd year 62836 EUR; " " 64407 EUR;
4th year 66390 EUR; " " 68050 EUR;
5th year 75927 EUR; " " 77824 EUR;

Thanks.
Could you or anybody else give a rough idea of the roster a new joiner can expect in terms of sequence of days on / off ? and also....is commuting possible / accepted / tolerated ? Thank you.

[ChrisWithWings]

If the 2015 CWA is the problem, are there any updates to the new CWA because as far as I know the actual one is only valid until end of november? How his the recruitment situation? Has CLX enough applications or are they required to increase the conditions (also considering the very successful financial year 2017) maybe by terminating the B-scale?

[Aeroshizzle]

If the 2015 CWA is the problem, are there any updates to the new CWA because as far as I know the actual one is only valid until end of november? How his the recruitment situation? Has CLX enough applications or are they required to increase the conditions (also considering the very successful financial year 2017) maybe by terminating the B-scale?

The current CWA has been extended to August 2019 while negotiations take place.
Recruitment is still ongoing. Reducing the requirements to 1500hrs 10tons etc means they are not short of applications.
People want to jump from business jets or turboprops often getting low salaries, Cargolux is a step up and accept the b scale.

Problem is holding on to them, once they have enough hours they will see better conditions elsewhere and jumpship.

Its my understanding that good financial years mean nothing. They would even like to reduce our vacation days, pension, days off, 13th month, profit share etc.
The negotiations are going to be interesting

[johnny73]

Thanks.
Could you or anybody else give a rough idea of the roster a new joiner can expect in terms of sequence of days on / off ? and also....is commuting possible / accepted / tolerated ? Thank you.

...any hint will be appreciated. Thanks

[Aeroshizzle]

...any hint will be appreciated. Thanks

From my experience
expect :
- 6 days off a month fixed, another 3 days floating around wherever they see fit.
- you can commute, your responsibility, but always arrive day before, so you need a hotel or crash pad,
- no travel benefits worth mentioning, since you cant access them for 6 months anyway. and they make it difficult to buy anything and forget bringing anyone with you, impossible
- if you ask for back to backs, which means putting both your 6 and 3 days together, so 9 days off, and 19 days away from home.
but you will be fatigued like hell, or stick 3 vacation days next to your days off bringing it to 12 days off 16 days away.
- work on your off days and vacation days because you're in probation and need to make a good impression that you're a team player and company minded. (they play with this probation hanging over your head, say no, work to rule)
- to be bombarded with roster changes,
- to buy an EASA ftl app to crosscheck your duty and rest limitations because you don't know otherwise.
- to have fun flying an iconic machine, into weird and wonderful destinations, with nice genuine crew, see the world, taste drink and see new cultures. just makes all the bull**** easier to swallow.

[Aeroshizzle]

Are you for real? You can't seriously expect someone to beliebe such a statement, can you?
Do you seriously believe that Cargolux would let go of you because you stick to your signed working contract and Collective Work Agreement??? But if this is what you need to tell yourself to sleep at night......

Do I believe Cargolux would let you go? No.
Did I mention any threat of termination in my previous post? No.
All I said was, its just expected, (only from what i experienced)
Maybe I should edit my previous post to include:
Its your decision in the end, accept or not. But I've been delayed/rescheduled to work on my days off or vacation, without the courtesy of a phone call or email. Its just there. I called, and said no, and the response I received was " oh? you're not willing to work on your off days to help out?" another call "are you still in probation?" How do you think this makes a new joiner feel?

I have refused to fly in all cases, deadhead home. and I'm still here.

[Aeroshizzle]

But if this is what you need to tell yourself to sleep at night......

now that you mention sleep .....https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/360x270/giphy_36e97512f27500b5b4a46fd0e5150d76f6e0cecd.gif

[SaulGoodman]

I can confirm that during your probation year some crew controllers will put pressure on you accepting the last minute back to back upon arrival in LUX or working on your days off.

Commuting is possible, but not always easy by air travel depending on where you live. I would not recommend it. Everything within driving distance is fine.

Roster during your first 2 years is pretty horrific. Do not believe the roster they show you during the assessment. Expect to be used to whatever is legal, especially during peak season. I highly recommend to divide your leave over the 13 rosters as it makes it more bearable. Expect very little roster stability and MASSIVE delays. You can only plan your block of 6 off days. And during your probation year they might pressure you into working these as well. You can say no! No questions asked. And if you choose the 2 for 1they will probably not call you again. When you get your first RBO it gets a little better.

Just to putt it into something easier to visualize: you will do roughly 2 rosters more productivity on the B-scale compared to the A-scale. 26 RBO’s and some leave days.

I personally would not have joined in hindsight. But that is easy to say. Good things; great network but unfortunately very short layovers usually. Great colleagues and good training. Also the tax and social system is quite good in LUX.

[johnny73]

I can confirm that....
.

From my experience expect.....

Dear both....many thanks for your objective job / roster description.
Really appreciated....Jumping from one horse to the other in the dark is not always the best move with a family on the back and age not exactly on my side.
So thanks again cheers

[Contract40]

Hello,

I sat the Mollymawk tests but failed the spatial orientation one (ball in a rotating maze), allowed to have another go, failed again. That’s it, can reapply in 2 years.
from reading this thread, I might have dodged a bullet.
They seem to have a pilot shortage and put huge faIth in those tests... I’m a 4000+ hr regional airline Captain, never failed a sim, good record.... but I can’t steer a ball through a maze. I think I could practice that all my days and never pass it !
They have standards though so I have to suck it up.
hey ho. Stay safe.

[flydog]

I think you are correct dodging the bullet, 5 Type Rated pilots interviewed this month all current and qualified and operating for other carriers. All made it through day after day after day of selection stuff.....group excercises, role playing, technical exam, interviews, extensive medicals etc etc etc....all made it to sim and guess what? no one passed and no one offered a job!
Must be the only place you actually give BLOOD and do not get offered a job.

Conclusion is and we were advised this is all purposeful, they do not want to employ people and want to keep short of pilots to drive the working agreement and salary upwards. They do not care that they waste a lot of your time and money over and over ....more than 3000 euros in all to attend these exams and interviews, for nothing.
the law of averages says at least 1 person should have been offered a job if all was kosha.

Don't waste your time and money guys unless you really want to go there, if so wait until after the new working agreement is ratified.

[johnny73]

Conclusion is and we were advised this is all purposeful, they do not want to employ people and want to keep short of pilots to drive the working agreement and salary upwards

....this makes sense but in a somehow very twisted way. Management wasting money on recruiting but checkers failing candidates at the sim session at the rate you mentioned because of needs to stay short on pilots ? It sounds a bit of a stretch to me. On the other hand recruiting has been open for no less than 18 months from what I know, that also makes little sense considering the amount of candidates that must go through the process every month. How big is the demand ?

Maybe the word from somebody who was recently successful and was offered the job would help. Could you tell us how many of your badge passed ?

I am in between Mollymawk and the 3 days in house. Thanks

[Procusto]

I really don't think CLX want to keep short of pilots by purposely failing candidates. KLM needs plenty (hundreds) of pilots in the incoming future, so many guys would leave if called. Just read the previous posts to guess why. On top of that, many of our guys are going to retire in the next five to ten years. New aeroplanes are coming the next year, too. Thereby, we need people. I am personally ashamed of the tear and wear that you are going through to join us. I wish you had the same conditions as me, which you deserve, for sure. I'm extremely sorry for the hassle.

[trancada]

I really don't think CLX want to keep short of pilots by purposely failing candidates. KLM needs plenty (hundreds) of pilots in the incoming future, so many guys would leave if called. Just read the previous posts to guess why. On top of that, many of our guys are going to retire in the next five to ten years. New aeroplanes are coming the next year, too. Thereby, we need people. I am personally ashamed of the tear and wear that you are going through to join us. I wish you had the same conditions as me, which you deserve, for sure. I'm extremely sorry for the hassle.

In your opinion what do you think, how CARGOLUX would accept very experienced F/O with Intercontinental experience, A330 and A340,NAT , EUR-SAM, ETOPS, RVSM ILS CAT3B no DH, and never flew BOEING, only Airbus FBW?

Sometime i think my wish to join cargo is to be tired of flying pax, and the problems associated to this.

About new planes , 3 more B744, next year, probably from NCA-NIPPON CARGO AIRLINES? As they said after a great inspection and a restructuring plan the only want to operate the 747-8.

The first year salaries are quite low, and living cost in Luxembourg is very high. Luxembourg is a nice country , i like it. With family with 2 children you have the state aid, per month, but house renting is huge. What the average salary expected NET? If you accept to work out of your roster, how ,much can you take home?

I see quite often the operation in FR24, i believe that you never do the same flight. Always a challenge. So variable. Today there where some curious flights, TPE-BKK, BAH-SGN,LUX-CGO, crossing the world every time , tonight 2 aircraft at same time ANC-ORD (LX-ECV and LX-VCM(Cutaway Livery) but "on the other side of the coin” a lot of delays.

[J74]

can anybody explain me the assessment in what consist, and how to prepare for the this mollymawk test? ....

[Banana Joe]

can anybody explain me the assessment in what consist, and how to prepare for the this mollymawk test? ....I was invited to the Mollymawk assessment for another airline but I guess the initial procedure is the same: you have to pay I think 300 euro for the CBT where you can practise to prepare for the assessment. However, you only have 10 practice runs if I remember correctly. And you have to buy it even if you do not want to prepare for it. At least this was the case for me with the other airline.
I know SkyTest added the maze test in one of their software, but can't tell about the others.

[J74]

Banana joe,
thanks for reply...
is really so expensive this test preparation?!!
Ans is really helpful to pass the test in Cargolux?
how are the level of difficulty?

[Banana Joe]

Banana joe,
thanks for reply...
is really so expensive this test preparation?!!
Ans is really helpful to pass the test in Cargolux?
how are the level of difficulty?I have never taken the Mollymawk test, the only thing I can tell you is that it has been developed by a former DLR psychologist.

[SaulGoodman]

Trancada, with all the extra’s and per diems you roughly earn nett what you earn gross in the first year. You might work the ocassional extra day but bear in mind that you do not have many days at home as it is. Especially if you bring your family over you might treasure your time at home more than a few extra euro’s. Believe me, crewcontrol will use you to the max anyway! Expect many changes and massive delays! If I were you I would wait until the CWA negotiations have ended.

Whatever kind of experience you have, as long as you fulfill min req’s you should get an invite. Many guys here with only Airbus experience.

I do not believe they fail people on purpose. You receive a package from CLX to prepare mollymawk. No need to fork out hundreds of euro’s. The selection is tough but doable.

[final06]

Food for thought:
https://theloadstar.co.uk/china-us-trade-uncertainty-keeps-cargoluxs-jv-cargo-airline-back-burner/

CEO envisions that CLX aircraft will be parked in 2020 due to recession.
Cargolux China project is stopped indefinitely.

However we need way more people to join CLX who are willing to work under the B-scale conditions!
Please join and make my rosters stable again! At the moment my schedule changes on an hourly basis (no kidding). :}
Same time new guys are leaving again which puts more strain on the training department.

[flydog]

The Molly ask prep is provided and is not difficult, you just have to dedicate time to doing it. Multiple flights
to findel however are very expensive, as are the hotels, they will offer a company rate but the hotels will be full so you have
to pay full rate somewhere and that is expensive. You will need to stay close or have rental car expense also expensive to go
to your medical.
As mentioned previously no one is offered a job at the end of it that I have heard of and that is 12 people in the last 2 months
7 of whom type rated and current ( maybe more) this is only the one I know about and have emails from.
8 of us are back on type with other companies the other guys returned to 767 757 737

so think carefully if you really want this job before you waste YOUR time and YOUR money on what appears to be a futile
exercise, so they can report back “ there are no suitable candidates applying, we need a pay rise so we can offer money money

[flydog]

Should say more money

[Aeroshizzle]

He is referring to the SIM instructors intentionally failing candidates, to show management that there are no suitable guys and gals
Therefore more leverage to ask for pay rise.

He is warning people to not waste their time and money on applying for this job, since it would be a fail anyway, regardless of their performance.

If I understood that right

[flydog]

Confirmed in what aeroshizzle says.

for couch potatoe, pay attention ....pilot pay rise means instructors even bigger pay rise.....the assessors are PILOTS, and if a whole bunch of others pilots current and qualified on type ....all operating safely elsewhere can pass everything Cargolux can throw at them over 5 days EXCEPT the sim assessment.....coincidently the only part of the assessment done by PILOTS ..........where does the problem lie.

5 other companies and 7 other aviation authorities have approved those applicant pilots ability to safely operate the B747 but Cargolux assessors say NO they are not. Either they think themselves elitist OR it could be that they are saying their own training department is not up to the task of training those people to Cargolux standard!

You decide, do they think they are really something special that the rest of us really cannot make the grade or are they not special enough that their trainers are not able to train current qualified pilots with proven track records. There is a problem somewhere within Cargolux because the people showing up are motivated or they would not have put themselves through all the time and expense required if they were not serious applicants.

i will stick with the original theory, that they are being failed at the end on purpose,as previously stated the law of averages says some should have made it.

the comforting thought is that eventually they will have to hire some people and those people will grab the type rating and then realize they have a long haul job with many roster changes and they will leave as soon as they can get another job. They usual Whitney ass ...I want a quality of life and to be at home more!
this will cost the company a lot of money, when they could have had pilots who have previous experience of rosters lasting 1 day...the day it is issued, being away 6 or 7 weeks at a time due to roster changes, days off almost always down route somewhere., flying aircraft this aircraft without an auto pilot or maybe without FMS and to remote areas of the world you only heard of that day. Where No one does your figures for you etc etc etc.

but hey, all training expenses are tax deductible, right!

[ray cosmic]

ehm flydog, I’m pretty certain your reasoning is completely off the mark. Then again, you seem to be an expert candidate in selections as you seem to have applied for plenty of airlines in the last years.
Seeing your reaction here it was perhaps a wise decision they did not hire you. The people running your sim look at many more things than your raw data skills, (and have been doing so for a good while) and simply found something which made them think you wouldn’t be a good addition the team.
Did you ask them why they didn’t offer you a contract?

[johnny73]

...the law of averages says some should have made it.

.....this is a holy truth !!!
Flydog is not the first one "suggesting" numbers don't match. This subject was touched before not too many pages behind.....
Even focusing on something else I come to the same conclusion and must agree that something is "strange" to say the least....

The on going recruitment has been open for nearly 2 years now. The first invitations to the Mollimawk must have started in the first quarter of 2017.....and nearly 2 years later pilots are still being invited for the process at the rate of what....4-5 per week if not more ? For a need of how many pilots ? With a fleet of 23 or 24 ? Sounds a looooong time to find suitable candidates. It takes much less to NASA in finding suitable astronauts !!!
Major legacy airlines all over the world with much biggers fleets are capable of satisfying their needs of pilots in few weeks / months when they start to recruit.....often by the time you hear about it the window is shut.

So, let's be realistic.....something is not right.

[Dufo]

You might also find a problem in the pilot group. Some think they are entitled to much more than they really are. Wrong, you need to earn that over time.
Companies have changed a lot from 'past times'. Working for a well-known name and under union contract doesn't mean a dream job anymore.

[FrontRunner]

Food for thought:
https://theloadstar.co.uk/china-us-trade-uncertainty-keeps-cargoluxs-jv-cargo-airline-back-burner/

CEO envisions that CLX aircraft will be parked in 2020 due to recession.



"...will be parked?" Please practice your English and carefully read what Forson actually says:

“If there is overcapacity, we still have fleet flexibility and we can park aircraft at no cost just to keep that flexibility." (Emphasis mine.)

[Aeroshizzle]

Anybody going to the pilot expo in Berlin?
They sent their very own Cargolux ambassador
Wondered what they had to say