NEWQUAY

[GROUNDHOG]

no its alright I am not, don't be afraid

[Rubber Duck]

As someone extremely close to the project for a number of years, I feel confident I know all the ins and outs and I am not a politician!

[nivsy]

I just hope the council appreciates the efforts of the Mod to keep supporting the airfield to December when they would have quite happily walked away now.

I hope the operators get themselves sorted out.

[GROUNDHOG]

Rubber Duck - I am delighted to hear that you are close the project, perhaps we have in you the very person needed to get the airport on to a sound financial footing. Good news indeed that you are posting here as it gives us interested parties an inside track as to what is actually happening.

Just for my own interest and as a Cornish ratepayer, which part of my post do you refer to as being wrong and how do those of you running the project now see the future for the airport?

Thanks.

[bravoromeosierra]

Looks as if the 'new' control tower is going up.. taxied passed it last week and took the below photo and it sure just looks like a few MDF Portakabins on-top of each other...

Also.. Correct me if wrong, but wont the controllers have the sun in their eyes all day positioned there..

Click (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/2739786304_97143e7f1f_b.jpg)

[Dash-7 lover]

Thought this was Professional Pilots Rumour Network and a thread on NQY airport not a debate on the NHS in Cornwall???

NQYguy - thanks for the control tower pic!

[Black Art]

Thanks for the pic of the twr NQYGuy. As someone who will be working there, and after the summer we have had, quite looking forward to a bit of sun in the eyes. Suspect we can always pull the blinds down if gets too much. :)

[Raven30]

Correct me if wrong, but wont the controllers have the sun in their eyes all day positioned there..http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a24/windy488/NewTower.jpg

Nah, those new fangled plywood blinds will do the trick!!:}

[bravoromeosierra]

Jet2 will start LBA and BFS to NQY from May 09'.

[L G Double-Yew]

An odd move from Jet2.

Their BFS/NQY presumably just competes with FlyBe's summer-only BHD/NQY. Or maybe BE aren't planning to do the BHD again next year.

And their LBA/NQY seems to be two flights a week - hard to see what this adds since ASW already do two flights a DAY.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure NQY needs more airlines that just come in during the summer months. They need to focus on the year-round business that the likes of Ryanair, ASW and Skybus provide.

[Dash-7 lover]

From 01st Dec 'St Mawgan' officially becomes 'Newquay Airport' and changes from EGDG to EGHQ!

[GROUNDHOG]

L G Double - Yew is of course quite right the airport needs twelve months of the year flying, but thereby hangs the rub, in the Winter the traffic just isn't there. I go back commercially from Newquay to the 1960's and I am afraid it never has been, Granted things have improved in the last five years or so but we have a way to go yet before it is viable to operate much more than already exists especially in the current economic climate.

Scheduled routes will be started and others will be scrapped but overall we are probably near the top of the available market for now.

[Flightrider]

Not sure how ASW will react to this, but Flybe have secured slots at Gatwick for LGW-NQY from February. It's apparently something to do with Continental's pull-out from LGW which has freed up morning slots, giving Flybe enough for a 3 x daily operation with a Q400.

[cornishsimon]

LGW-NQY x3 per day on flybe?

that could be intersting and replaces the BA x1 service and a bit more as far as capacity goes as the above post says it will be on a q400

would this mean a based aircraft at NQY for flybe? as far as i am aware Flybe dont base or overnight any aircraft at LGW?

[rogervisual]

Flymaybe - BRING IT ON , don,t forget "Size does not matter";)

[Devonair]

Do WOW flights from NQY to LGW operate via PLH in either direction? Obviously the BE flights will be direct

[Tyreplug]

Flightrider - not sure where you got your information from but would be welcome. However, I understand that recent new Gatwick slots have been freed up for Newcastle with Exeter crews night stopping to temp cover it. Flybe certainly seem be focusing no LGW at the moment

[Joffyh]

Do WOW flights from NQY to LGW operate via PLH in either direction? Obviously the BE flights will be direct

NQY-LGW are all direct, LGW-NQY services with the exception of the 19:55 departure from LGW go via PLH.

[bravoromeosierra]

Flightrider..

If there is indeed any light to what you say, when can we expect an announcement?

[L G Double-Yew]

I suspect Flybe aren't particularly popular in Cornwall. After a lot of hype about launching flights from Newquay this time last year, they've pulled out with as much speed as they came in:
Newquay-Southampton: Dropped before it started
Newquay-Geneva: Dropped before it started
Newquay-Birmingham: Dropped
Newquay-Glasgow: Dropped within a couple of months of starting
Newquay-Edinburgh: Dropped, for the winter at least
Newquay-Belfast: Only operated in the summer (and Jet2 are picking it up next summer)

At the same time, to be fair they have done good things at Exeter, especially with routes to Spain, Portugal etc which probably wouldn't work from NQY.

I'm sure ASW's route from LGW to NQY does ok, but they only have to fill 50 seats and they get half their load from PLH. I'm guessing that if Flybe have a Dash8-400 and some LGW slots going spare, they would find something far more lucrative to do with them than flying to NQY!

[Cloud1]

err the GVA did start and operated all throughout last winter.......

Can't see Flybe doing that route tbh but alot of expansion due for LGW at some point so who knows.

[cornishsimon]

GVA was advertised locally here again for winter this year and bookable but has since been pulled prior to kicking off operations.

i think that what others have said on here is true, flymaybe need to watch themselves at NQY, we need them here but not trying to force WOW off existing routes only to cancel them and not advertising routes that turn out not to run.

everyone accepts that the current economic climate is rubbish but come on!

[L G Double-Yew]

Cloud1 - sorry, you are right. The GVA did operate last winter. What I meant was that it was announced and went on sale for this coming winter, and has now been pulled.

[Cloud1]

I think it unfair to criticise Flybe in this way because they are one of few airlines that actually make commercially sensible decisions. If passengers are not booking to fly they will not operate.

The only people to blame for Flybe's decision to pull routes is the people who are suppose to use them, in other words the public. I do not see Flybe pulling routes where they have sufficient numbers using their services.

Flybe are not trying to pull WOW off any routes - they only competed with WOW on the Glasgow service. SOU was pulled because no-one booked and BHX was pulled for the same. BHD and EDI have always been summer only like many other Flybe services such as Exeter to Inverness (although I think EDI operated at reduced frequency last winter - I am not sure) GLA was pulled as a temporary measure in view of the cost of fuel however this was the only route that was directly affected by fuel.

GVA was fairly succesful last year but a scheduled airline cannot rely on charter companies and therefore this has been pulled. Again if people want these routes they have to use them!

[Feet on ground]

Heard that flybe have got slots for a Gatwick Newquay service this winter, anybody else heard this?

[bravoromeosierra]

Yep, we have heard this. Should start February next year x 3 daily (apart from Sat x 2) with the Q400.

[Cloud1]

As an employee I am very defensive when people moan and groan for the sake of it (see Flybe thread) however there are several things that do either irritate me or make me wonder why.

NQY-LGW is one of those 'why?' situations. To expand on this, I am concerned that Flybe are allegedly looking at this route as WOW already offer this at 50 capacity and rarely is it completely full. Therefore I am intrigued as to how Flybe intend to fill 78 seats on the Q400.

I think there are many opportunities for Flybe to look at however NQY should not be one. There is not enough demand to sufficiently fill 78 seats on domestic routes nor will people pay for Flybe international routes when you have RYR operating Girona and Alicante.

Then again it would be nice to be proved wrong - the more people booking the more money the company makes, the more succesful we become :)

[Wellington Bomber]

Cloud 1

This is what Flybe do, they jump on routes of other carriers that build them up from nothing and do the leg work.

Then they go ruin the route when they force the other carrier off. Then they start cancelling services and reducing daily services to 3/4 a week

[Cloud1]

That is not true Wellington Bomber and I would strongly suggest you look at some facts - and I mean the entire flybe network and not just a couple of examples at NQY - before coming up with such statements. I am one of Flybe's loyal employees but I am also one of their harshes critics when I feel critism is justified. Yes routes have come and gone and some of them were a mess, however Flybe do not have any tactics such as those suggested in your post.

Flybe genuinly make a go of routes and if the competition is that weak that they fail - well that is their problem. A succesful airline should win over any other competition if they offer such a good product as it is the passengers that decide at the end of the day.

I strongly hope Flybe are succesful on this route and work alongside WOW well, more to prove people like you wrong. I guess its another one of those lets wait and see moments.

[cheesycol]

NQY-LGW - BA Codeshare?

[Wycombe]

To throw a cat amongst the pidgeons - how about routing it via a brief call at EXT?

[Wellington Bomber]

cloud1

Explain the following

IOM - SOU Eastern operated now Flybe dropped for winter

IOM - LPL Euromanx operated now you reduce services and increase fares
IOM - MAN Euromanx operated same as above

[Cloud1]

IOM - SOU was only ever a summer route only or at least it was this year and this was made fairly clear when it was announced. It is NOT Flybe's fault that passengers choose to utilise their service and as such Eastern drop the route. Do you not recognise that this actually indicates a problem with the Eastern package either price structure or service?? Why would people move to Flybe otherwise......

IOM - LPL and IOM - MAN. This is a interesting topic because if it wasn't for Flybe they wouldn't have the link at all. Euromanx were going through very turbulent times even before Flybe started on the LPL route - this has only been reduced down whilst the economy is as it is. There simply is not enough people using the route to allow for a high frequency of flights between the island and the mainland.

IOM - MAN was increased from the original scheduled operated by Euromanx. With winter drawing in schedules will be reduced down - this is quite simply good business understanding and makes sense when fewer people fly. All airlines make these changes and it is because of this that Flybe have been able to succesfully operate for so long.

[airhumberside]

IOM - LPL and IOM - MAN. This is a interesting topic because if it wasn't for Flybe they wouldn't have the link at all.
Do you really think if Flybe didnt fly the routes no one else would? Considering quite a bit of the demand is essential travel such as hospital patients.

[Cloud1]

Well I am pretty sure Manx2 would not have done it - well they may have but I cannot imagine that the hospital patients would have been able to have travelled. They cannot be that roomy inside the aircraft for a start....

There may well have been other operators interested but not prepared or able to operate without any gap between EMX demise and the start of their operations. Flybe were able to just plod along as normal.

I feel that we are moving off topic now. The point I am trying to make is that it is not Flybe do ultimately make the decision on how successful a route is it is the paying public. Newquay should be grateful for as many operators they can get even if it is for a small period of time as it will raise thier own profile. If people want Flybe to stay around at NQY and keep their routes going then for goodness sake use them.

[L G Double-Yew]

Cloud1:

"If people want Flybe to stay around at NQY and keep their routes going then for goodness sake use them."

At the risk of going over old ground, the point is that Flybe will by the end of October have withdrawn everything from Newquay. A couple of summer-only routes finish as planned. One or two other summer-only routes (eg Southampton and Glasgow) either didn't start at all or stopped early. Edinburgh operated summer and winter last year - but has now been stopped for the winter. And Geneva, which was on sale for winter-ski, has been pulled.

This demonstrates the rather fragile nature of routes from Newquay - and contrary to your comment about supporting Flybe, actually the right thing to do is to support those airlines that operate from Newquay year-round - Ryanair, Air Southwest and Skybus. All credit to ASW in particular, who will operate this winter to nine destinations - Gatwick, Manchester, Leeds, Glasgow, Newcastle, Bristol, Cork, Dublin, Grenoble. They can make these routes work on a year-round basis by operating smaller aircraft, and by combining flights with Plymouth. Cornwall should be thankful for Air Southwest's year-round operation - without them Newquay Airport would be pretty quiet in the winter!

[rogervisual]

L G - Good post and in the difficult times we are going to have ahead its going to be even more important that the likes of ASW are supported. Flymaybe will cut and run when it gets hard , ASW would not.

[GROUNDHOG]

In the same way of course that we shjould all buy British, support our local village shop etc etc. In the real world of course most of the population will always take the cheapest or most convenient option and that will never change.

[west lakes]

Surprised no one has commented on this

Newquay Voice Newspaper (http://www.newquayvoice.co.uk/nvnews/news/newsItem.php?news_id=3470&offset=&phpShop=ed0bcb540b7e9b8bbcca06d4b5826bc1)

[footster]

Ive also found this espcially after theyve announced a delay on handover again,

Newquay Voice Newspaper (http://www.newquayvoice.co.uk/nvnews/news/newsItem.php?news_id=3361&offset=)

[cornishsimon]

new terminal on the RAF side has always been planned for as and when the need is there as far as passengers and cargo goes.

the ryanair spanish cuts are only for a few months during late 08 and early 09, the good thing is that they will return, and i wouldnt be too surprised to see the odd extra route from Ryanair at NQY, especially considering the fact that they have a presence at NQY and also considering the fact that they have loads of 738's sitting around/new being delivered and that oil has dropped considerably

just my opinion!

[Tyreplug]

What's going on at Newquay Airport? The council have apparently failed to secure ATC services for the handover to the civies on 1/12/08. The airport will therefore close for three weeks unless the RAF decide to extend their ATC services. Hope they don't - on principle.

[GROUNDHOG]

Why is it ?......Councils + running airports = disaster.

Said it a long time ago the airport should be run and owned by a commercial body not a quango of people with no experience of the business at all.

As to routes being dropped, you haven't seen the last of it.

Have to agree with the last post, for all the WRONG reasons I hope the RAF tell the Council to go forth and the airport is shut down for three weeks .... or will it be four, five,six.....

Its all a showere of s..t that I and my fellow taxpayers are funding and it needs to be exposed as such.

[footster]

I would like to know where the council are hoping to get their money to carry out all these so called expansion plans because the SWRDA hae said that they wont be putting money into the airport. I dont believe as Groundhog has said councils and airports go together even more so here.They have already shortened and cut the width of the runway and with the extra cost of employing the RAF to carry on with ATC (if the RAF agree) finances must be stretched to the limit.I thought the council where living in cloud cuckoo land when they went to the MOD asking for more slots which incidently the MOD wouldnt allow and started the demise of RAF St Mawgan and I have seen nothing new to change my mind.I really think Newquay could become a big white elephant and a waste if money if they arent careful.

[Chough]

Never under estimate the ability of a County Council - particularly Cornwall County Council - to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Presumably if the airfield does indees shut down for three weeks or so, the likes of Ryanair will be predictably unpleasant, and who can blame them?

Listening to a County Councillor today on local radio praise the work of staff I wondered what planet he hailed from. Cornwall County Council has just appointed a new £200K a year Chief Executive, no doubt he'll sort all this out in a day or two! Why is it that I can't get away from a long held idea that a County Council isn't well set up to run anything that has to supposedly make a proftit and is especially poorly equipped to run an airport.

With the rundown of many routes for the winter period, Newquay is going to have its work cut out to accheive its targets over the next two or three years.

[footster]

Newquay to close untill they sort out the ATC problems due to the RAF not agreeing to delay their withdrawall.Serves CCC right.

BBC NEWS | England | Cornwall | Air traffic delay stops flights (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7750133.stm)

[FunFlyin]

So Rubber Duck,

Care to explain how all this happened?

[footster]

Four years to prepare and get to this stage well what a surprise or should I say not a surprise

[Martin the Martian]

To add my tuppence...

What said it all for me was the interview with the councillor on local BBC last night that CCC believe that this is a world first for a military airfield to become a civilian airport. The words 'Doncaster' and 'Finningley' spring to mind.:ugh:

Talking about believing your own propaganda. If they get something as fundamentally wrong as that, then there is no chance for Newquay Airport. 'Tis a damn shame, for as a local I really, really want it to succeed. But it won't until they get in somebody who knows how to run an airport to do the job for them.

Incidentally, there was an item on this morning's local BBC that ASW and Skybus have contingency plans. I imagine that for ASW that will mean bussing people to Plymouth (or asking them to travel there themselves if possible), but for Skybus, perhaps operating out of Perranporth?

[rogervisual]

In fairness to Newquay it was going to be first military airfield to attempt to transfer to civillian airport without closing, which was always going to be a difficult. You cannot compare to Doncaster /finningley it closed first. That being said there was a lot of people in the industry who said trying to do it without closing was a too much to take on, especially with a restricted budget.

[Pie Man]

The RyanAir view on events:

Ryanair.com - News : Cornwall’s Calamity Council and RAF Close Newquay Airport (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=nov&story=gen-en-271108)

they don't seem to realise in the current world situation one of the RAF's roles is not to provide services to 'fare paying passengers', at the expense of operational commitments. If the RAF had had it's way they would have been gone at the end of July 2008, and probably earlier if Cornwall County Council had not asked for help.

PM

[rogervisual]

Ryanair take the biscuit don't they using "unreasonable " and "expect". As if they really care about the customers ,they cut and run when it suits them, when airlines like Airsouthwest provide a consistent level of service as the South Wests true airline. The flying public will remember when it counts.

[ROBERTSFIELD]

rogervisual

"In fairness to Newquay it was going to be first military airfield to attempt to transfer to civillian airport without closing"

Not strictly correct Farnborough did it, and if my aged memory is correct, so did Biggin Hill.

[greciangod]

Ryanair have a nerve telling the passengers to seek compensation for the cancelled flights. What compensation will all the other passengers get from Ryanair for the cancelled flights up to March. B****r all.

[GROUNDHOG]

What alternative do Ryanair have then? Agree 100% they should not be blaming the RAF for this shambolic debacle though.

Now off to get a copy of the new 'masterplan' for NQY, should make interesting reading but are the Council really capable of bringing home the bacon. I suspect not.

[stolport]

Air Southwest are now trying to honour Ryanair bookings by taking people from Plymouth to Gatwick where able.


Important Information regarding Air Southwest flights to/from Newquay Airport.

We have been advised that Newquay Airport will be closed from 1 December to 19 December 2008 inclusive. This is due to issues with the handover of air traffic control from the RAF to the airport authority.

We have put in place a range of contingency plans to ensure that disruption to our customers is kept to a minimum.

All Air Southwest flights will continue to operate, but will now operate from Plymouth.

If your flight was due to depart from Newquay, it will now depart from Plymouth. There are two options available to you:

1. You can choose to make your own way to Plymouth, please note that check-in will close at Plymouth 30 minutes before the original scheduled departure time from Newquay.
2. You can use the ground transport that will be provided by Newquay Airport from Newquay to Plymouth. Please note that this will depart promptly from Newquay two hours before the original scheduled departure time.

There is no need to advise Air Southwest of your preferred option in advance.

If your flight was due to arrive in Newquay, it will now terminate in Plymouth and ground transport to Newquay will be provided by Newquay Airport - this takes approximately 75 mins.

Customers may continue to make new bookings for flights to or from Newquay, and take advantage of the complimentary ground transport provided by Newquay Airport to connect with our flights to or from Plymouth. Please be aware, however, that ground transport will leave Newquay Airport no later than 2 hours before the scheduled flight departure time from Newquay.

All affected customers who provided an e-mail address at the time of booking will be contacted by e-mail to advise of the contingency arrangements.

Please accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused during this period, due to circumstances which are outside our control.

Ground transport will be provided subject to the ground transport operators conditions of carriage.

For Ryanair flights to/from London Stansted:

Air Southwest has agreed to assist Ryanair passengers booked on Newquay to Stansted between 1 December 2008 and 19 December 2008 and subject to availability, offer seats on London Gatwick flights from Plymouth Airport.

Please contact Newquay Cornwall Airport on the hotline number (01872 322002) by 7 December 2008 to check availability and rebook your flight. Requests after this date may not be honoured.

You will be required to provide proof of your Ryanair flight when checking in for your rebooked flight.

[Lost man standing]

I came here for a little enlightenment on this issue. I should have known better.

Why are people blaming the council, when it is not their fault at all? Oh, it's because you have no idea what's going on beyond what is in the news media (which are known for their accuracy and thorough investigation of aviation-related stories, aren't they?) and Ryanair's self-serving press release. As far as my information suggests both are so far out as to be useless.

Groundhog and Chough

I am a staunch free market supporter, and would be the first to blame the government organisation if it was their fault. The information I heard is on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/352567-raf-st-mawgan.html) as well, and it is that the contractors screwed up. Private enterprise can make mistakes.

Martin

Finningley had closed to flight operations years before that. A seamless transition is an altogether more complicated prospect, and requires many different organisations to co-operate and fulfil their commitments. Lack in both factors appear to be the cause here.

[GROUNDHOG]

Lost Man Standing..... just love your sense of humour! Well done made me laugh!!

[Lost man standing]

Right ... it would be reasonable assume that if there was anything actually incorrect in my post you would have something more relevant to say than that. So I assume you agree with what i have said.

[danieloakworth]

If the post you're referring to in that thread is mine then i wouldn't take my scorn for the failure to get the safety cases approved as an endorsement of the Councils role. It's worth noting that when this Project was tendered (in three lots of £10m), some very noteable companies elected not to bid due to the way in which the Council had set things up and the people they had managing it.

[GROUNDHOG]

Lost man standing - No I have nothing to add to that already stated on this forum. Assume what you like that is your perogative.

Breaking news is that it appears we are now also funding the repatriation of Ryanair passengers from Bournemouth, Bristol and Luton, IF that is the case why should that be?. IF Ryanair are prepared to dump the pax and walk away why should CCC get them home? There is no contract between CCC and the pax. Doesn't this also mean CCC should be doing the same for Air Southwest, Skybue et al?
Exactly what is the arrangement and what are we the taxpayer liable for. It's not only Penzance that smells of fish right now?

To the future .... just glanced at the nearly 300 page master plan and thought the second paragraph was a little unfortunate under the circumstances. Now to read the rest of it and will let you know what my opinion is for whats it worth then.

PS: You can get a copy on line from Cornwall Airport website to see what I mean.....

[west lakes]

Of course it is entirely POSSIBLE (that word emphasised deliberately) that the contract between CCC and the contractor had a penalty clause in it for this type of situation.
In which case it may well be a contractor, for failing to deliver in a set timescale or standard, ultimately picking up the bill for the delays in licensing.
Certainly when I have been involved with contracts in a different industry, but still construction related, a percentage retention figure was held by the client to cover contingencies.

[Raven30]

I don't like to make a mockery of people.....you say and then do exactly that.

Stop and think for a few seconds. The weather was wet and miserable yesterday, he was probably fielding requests for an interview all day long from many sources, and that on top of trying to deal with a difficult and embarrassing situation. At the end of a day like that, how would you look??

I'm not trying to protect him, I just don't see the relevancy of your post to this topic.

[L G Double-Yew]

All credit to ASW. Behind the scenes they must be mightily p***ed off, but publicly they are dealing with this in a professional way, providing alternative arrangements, accepting Ryanair passengers, and generally just getting on with it. Good for them!
Let's hope that NQY Airport get their act in gear, and whatever has gone wrong they get it sorted it good time for the re-opening on 20th Dec.

[Nov71]

Ceefax reporting Newquay airport closed until Dec 19. The Council (owner) forgot to apply to renew its CAA Licence. Ryanair has moved its flights elsewhere, describing the situation as a 'farce'. An accurate assessment by Mo'L?

[merlinxx]

Damn, are they going to take it away and crush it, bet they got a new TV licence though:{

[diginagain]

Here's a little more;

Newquay (http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/352584-newquay-airport-closed-sunday.html)

&

More (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/352567-raf-st-mawgan.html)

[wobble2plank]

The RAF have been covering Newquays ATC since they were also covering for St Mawgan. With the good 'ol defense cuts, at a time when the military have never been under more operational strain, St Mawgan was to be closed at the start of December to save money.

The air traffic controllers are to be re-assigned and the Cornish County Council, as usual, couldn't organise a pi$$ up in a brewery and neglected to factor in a 'lead time' for the CAA to issue the licence for the transfer to civilian ATC.

Oddly enough, local councilors tried to blame it on the inflexibility of the RAF to cover their cock-up over the intervening 3 weeks. Although they have known about the change over for several months now.

Not often I agree with MOL but, unfortunately, on this occasion, I have to! :eek:

[BEagle]

w2p is quite correct. As, unusually, is o'Leary. It is indeed a farcial cock-up by the operator of Nookie Intergalactic.

One of the hazards in using 'minor' airports for CAT is the unreliability of service provision. Ryanair, using more of these types of airport than other airlines, is naturally more vulnerable to such vagaries of service.

Shame....... One of the better RAF aerodromes as well.

[TCAS FAN]

There appears to be a lot of speculation as to why Newquay did not acheive a seamless transition from a MOD aerodrome to a CAA licensed aerodrome.

Does anybody out there know the actual reason (s) why the smooth transition did not happen? Was it that the aerodrome did not secure a CAA Aerodrome Licence, or the ATC Unit did not secure ANSP Certification?

Cornwall Council has come in for a lot of flack. Was it that the staff that the Council employed at the airport did not meet their expectations, or one or more highly paid consultants did not come up with the goods on time?

I've been involved with the transition of two MOD aerodromes to civil licensed status, neither of which closed before the transition was completed. If there is anyone from Cornwall Council or the airport that wants to talk, please PM me.

Lets stop the wild speculation and start talking facts.

[wobble2plank]

TCAS FAN,

From what I have heard the council was poorly advised, probably by an unqualified quango adviser on a huge payment and a final payment civil service pension scheme ( :E sorry, that's my spin on it), as to the length of time the CAA require to certify the change over.

Probably screwed up on the cost as well.

Haven't we all been on the end of the phone to the CAA at some point?

[robin]

Interestingly, the initial comments led me to believe it was being held up by delays in the paperwork from the CAA.

Newquay were always going to be on a tight timescale, but a lot of us known (to our cost) that the Belgano aren't noted for their speed, when it comes to issuing the certificates......:ugh:

[wanabenavypilot]

ITV Westcountry Made it sound like that the RAF SHOULD step in as a favour to the Council, the council forget that the RAF is fully streached out.

I bet if any of us 'forgot' to pay our Council tax, the shoe would be on the other foot

[TCAS FAN]

Robin

Facts please. Which part of CAA, Aerodrome Standards (ie Aerodrome Licence) or Air Traffic Standards (ie ANSP Certification)?

Cannot see that CAA caused delay, they would have indicated to the Council what the timescale was when the whole transition process began. If it was unachievable then the Council should have put their hands up long ago and notified all the stakeholders of the possible closure.

If consultants let the Council down, time to name/shame and let them take some of the current flak aimed at the Council.

[wobble2plank]

wanabenavypilot

A bunch of us 'singlies' from deepest, darkest, Kernow withheld our 'poll tax/council tax' shortly before shipping out for a little exercise in the Gulf at the start of the 90's. It was done in protest at shipping out, on the Governments behest, and Kerrier being the only Council in the UK not to waive poll tax for serving forces personnel.

We paid in full, in cash, shortly before embarking and took our receipts with us. Upon returning to Kernow, 7 1/2 moths later, using no services, bins, libraries, roads etc. we were greeted at the gates by Bailiffs from Kerrier County Council. No 'thanks boys' or 'Well done' or the such, just 'pay up or we'll take you to court'.

Upon production of payment receipts the council didn't even have the good grace to apologise.

Oddly enough I have no time whatsoever for Cornish Councils and the belief that the military has a requirement to assist them is just farcical.

[wanabenavypilot]

wobble2plank,

That is an Outrageous practice of Collecting Council Tax, the Council should have more respect for Our Military. If someone from the Council came knocking on my door after I just got back from a War Zone, asking for Council Tax payments after not living in the UK for 8 months, I would not just tell them Where to go, they would get a punch on the Nose.

WNP

[wobble2plank]

Wouldn't we all, unfortunately non payment carries with it 'bringing the service into disrepute' as an Officer.

Have to tread carefully!

[Capot]

Among others, I have been following the fortunes of Newquay airport ever since the MoD first said it might leave, ie many years ago.

The story is a sad saga of incompetence and stupidity on the part of Cornwall County Council, featuring their appallingly bad and probably corrupt process of recruiting a company to run it for them, and their total ignorance of aviation together with a determination to run things while refusing to recognise that ignorance.

Time and again Council officials have reacted angrily to any suggestion that they were getting it wrong, and that it would all end in tears. This reaction flowed from the fact that they were so woefully ignorant that they could not even see what was going wrong.

They engaged individuals with no relevant qualifications or experience in airport management.

The current situation was predictable and predicted. If I were Ryanair I would have taken much stronger action than the very reasonable line taken. There is no hope that anyone in Cornwall will launch some kind of maladministration action, but that's what should happen.

To those of us who have tried again and again to bring the Council to its senses it has been a frustrating few years, characterised by defensive rebuffs from idiots at all levels, including "Cabinet" and Councillors.

[rogervisual]

Guys there two other threads on this and several press releases that explain the reasons for the closure. The none issue of the ATC licence
is the main reason. The CAA are going back in a couple of weeks to do the ATC inspection as they were not ready for it last week.

[Capot]

Ducki

Handling equipment such as GPUs is not the concern of Aerodrome Standards who award the Licence, which is about compliance with CAP 168.

Airport equipment such as ground lighting, approach aids and so on is the concern of AS, and therefore so are the provisions in place to ensure its proper maintenancer and monitoring.

The CAA might conceivably be interested in handling equipment from the continuing airworthiness angle, but I very much doubt it; it's the aircraft operator's responsibility to make sure it works OK, even when the equipment is provided by a contractor such as a handling agent.

[Capot]

Why are people blaming the council, when it is not their fault at all?

Because the Council have been screwing it up for years, that's why.

If not the Council, whose fault is it, exactly?

See the latest thread on Newquay, unless the mods merge them.

[Martin the Martian]

CCC successfully conned the Boundaries authorities into persuading them that they could 'merge' (ie take over) with the six district councils, showing heaps of detailed cost savings blah blah and then being told in July 2007 to go for it, with a set date of handover of April next year.

My other half works for one of the DCs, with her department being one of the pilots for the new authority. At the moment, from what she says, nobody has a clue as to what the new staffing level will be, what organisation will take, whether she will continue to work from her DC office or at CCC HQ. Strategy briefings take the form of 'we've done this so far', falling strangely quiet when somebody asks what happens next.

And April 2009 is not far away.

Cornwall County Council? I wouldn't trust them to run a tap, let alone an airport.:*

Oh, and what is that freshly dug earthbank around the NQY perimeter for anyway?

[danieloakworth]

My understanding is that the airport have not managed to have their safety cases audited by CAA in the timescales previously identified. These cover several areas (including navaids and the overall operation). this is not the fault of CAA, CCC awarded these contracts over 2 years ago (although I'm not sure when they srated paying the contractors - an ongoing issue I understand).

[WHBM]

I read all this with disbelief. Here are three public bodies (the council, the CAA and the RAF), all supported by public funds and meant to be operating in the best interests of the public.

Yet they all seem to be wanting to work within their own rules, disregarding whatever impact that may have on the public who actually feed them. Are the CAA not capable of giving strong advice, giving temporary approvals outside their normal guidelines to keep things going for a short while, guidance to new owners of an airport, and other helpful things ? Are the council bureaucrats not able to work outside their normal 09.30 to 16.00 office hours ? Couldn't the RAF somewhere along the line have seen this coming, and offered helpful advice and warnings in advance to the other two about what was looming ? It seems this is the sort of thing that happens when Jobsworth meets Jobsworth.

[Capot]

WHBM

I think you'll find that the reality of the situation is that CCC have created the fiasco all on their own, and the CAA and the RAF have been trying to advise them for years but, as I discovered, CCC cannot be advised.

When you are dealing with people who simply refuse to accept that they can be wrong, who simply don't know how little they know, there comes a time when you simply give up, recalling the Biblical phrase "You can't kick against the pricks", and move on.

Perhaps the CAA and RAF eventually felt the same way.

Changing the subject....sort of......

CCC's performance over St Mawgan/Newquay Airport pales into insignificance aganst their performance over the £millions of EU funding they lost on behalf of their ratepayers....but that's another story, another saga of incompetence. But it does reinforce the notion that CCC is not fit for purpose, hasn't been for a long time, and that paying shedloads of cash to time-wasters has not solved the problem.

[rogervisual]

WHBM, you are missing the point. There are flight safety issues here and by not issing the ATC licence the CAA SRG are doing the job they are supposed to do and by doing this they are protecting the public.
The CAA have been in communication for the past couple of years
with the NQY officials and yes there is a temporary approval system that was going to be in place. But they did not meet the required standard to give that.
The RAF have extended twice already and there is a knock effect to other units if they extend again.
Working within there own rules is why the flight safety record in this country is so good.

[WHBM]

WHBM, you are missing the point.
I don't think I am. The airport was not adequately safe on November 30 then suddenly unsafe the next day, and then hey-presto from December 17 it is all safe again. This condition can only apply because some aspect of bureaucracy has not been ticked. It should be quite possible to organise to overcome this.

[Capot]

and then hey-presto from December 17 it is all safe again.

No, no, no. It's not "hey-presto.......".

It's "If you have put right the safety failure that led us to refuse the licence by 17th December, it's all safe again. If not, then no licence, and you stay closed".

As I understand it (possibly wrongly) both sides have agreed that 17th December is a reasonable target date to have put things right. And that's all. I'm not betting on the outcome.

[danieloakworth]

WHBM, please tell me that you are winding us up and that someone with so many posts doesn't lack a basic understanding of how the regulatory structure works.

[footster]

Found this on the West Country tv web site seems Newquay not to open untill the 29th now at earliest

Re-opening of Newquay airport could be delayed - Westcountry - Welcome To ITV Local for the West Country (http://info.itvlocal.com/newquay_airport.shtml)

[WHBM]

WHBM, please tell me that you are winding us up and that someone with so many posts doesn't lack a basic understanding of how the regulatory structure works.
No folks, I'm not winding you up, it's a serious point for discussion.

And I certainly don't care for the "regulatory structure" being the overarching consideration. The job of all these public bodies, equally, seeing as their salaries are paid out of the public's purse, is to get the airport and the public's needs met in a safe, efficient, sensible manner. They can adapt their structures as they wish to achieve that. Not to start scoring points or to have a "my bureaucracy's more important than your bureaucracy" approach.

I wish someone could tell us what the actual safety issues are that were OK on November 30, justify shutting the airport down in December, and will lead to it reopening and being OK again later in December. And by safety issues I don't mean Safety Cases not signed off in the right colour of ink. I've had it with Safety Cases, ISO 9000 certification, and all the rest of the bogus administration hoo-hah we have to put up with currently.

I've had to deal with a couple of organisations today regarding changes to the UK VAT rate today. One was trying to be helpful and coming up with sensible approaches, the other has done nothing all day except whine about it not being their job, and sending missives everywhere to this effect. In the time it took them to send these messages they could have actually fixed and overcome the problem. Guess which one of these two the Newquay situation reminds me of.

[west lakes]

The CAA's view of it

BBC NEWS | England | Cornwall | Airport closure was 'responsible' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7757954.stm)

The difference is that up to now the ATC, equipment and procedures were operated solely by the RAF. All this equipment is now decommissioned and will, probably, be removed from site.
The new civilian side will be using new equipment, from a new tower with new staff. Apart from commissioning tests, as far as I am aware, this new equipment has not been used operationally.

Or to put it another way, up until now it was operating under the RAF safety case, they have "gone" so it can no longer operate under that.
The delay appears, for whatever reason, to be in approving the new safety regime/case

[rogervisual]

WHBM,
i take it you are some sort of bean counter then. Don't worry there is a long history of bean counters not getting the point when it has come to aviation.
We are not talking about some ISO 9000 paperwork that some door handle is in the wrong place. This is about flight safety and does not mean the CAA should cut corners or adjust their standards to get it done. The standards and procedures are there for a reason they work and are safe.

TIME TO SPARE GO BY AIR

[Capot]

WBHM

The point I think you are missing, well two points really, is that the reason that aviation is so safe is that there is a fairly rigid set of rules which taken together make it safe, and that the CAA is not some kind of equal partner in an effort to get you flying. The CAA is there to make sure the rules are followed, end of story, so that aviation stays safe.

The sort of cosy arrangement that you seem to want, with all parties getting their heads together to sort things out in a co-operative kind of way, is exactly the sort of arrangement that results in a disaster, because the priority for all concerned becomes to get the place open at all costs.

Now you can rant away about stupid pettifogging rules and how anyone with commonsense can always get by safely, but the next time you go flying without a second's doubt about whether you'll get there in one piece, just reflect on the fact that your confidence comes from a safety culture that revolves around sticking to the letter of the rules, without exceptions, and the safety record that has resulted. You would be astonished, I think, at how much paperwork is completed during a simple turn-round, but the fact that it is, and that jail looms for anyone who gets it wrong, is why you can relax and enjoy it.

There has never been any secret about what the rules would be when CCC took over. The blame for not getting things done properly and on time lies fair and squarely with that useless organisation, and not with the CAA or the RAF.

A child of 10 could have told them 2 years ago what was needed and how and when to do it. Unfortunately the organisation employs no-one who could have understood.

Sorry that's a bit of a rant in itself. I'm deeply involved with safety, and I have experience of CCC.

[footster]

Apparently according to the local BBC the latest delays are due to the CAA not being happy with run off areas etc. CCC have stated the the work to rectify this is very much weather reliant. Ha ha thats a joke with the weather we get down here in the winter.

[danieloakworth]

job of all these public bodies, equally, seeing as their salaries are paid out of the public's purse, is to get the airport and the public's needs met in a safe, efficient, sensible manner.

WHBM, you've answered your own question. That is indeed their responsibility. The CAA explained to Newquay what steps needed to be taken in order for them to achieve the required certification. That is the 'regulatory structure' in place under law in this country. The closure has nothing to do with the colour of ink on the safety case. Once the SC's have been signed off the CAA conduct an inspection of the airport in order to give it the final ok, they can't do that until they have all supporting paperwork (as required under law). The inspection is not a 'rubber stamp' exercise, they need to look at the safety features of the new equipment (lets not forget that most if not all the ATC equipment is brand new), I've attended a few of these inspections and the new equipment fails on around 50% of occassions.

The CAA have bent over backwards to help Newquay, but don't forget that there are many other airports trying to get major Projects across the line at the moment and Newquay have no right to exclusive support.

[WHBM]

WHBM,
I take it you are some sort of bean counter then
I've never been so insulted in my life :)
CAA not being happy with run off areas etc
How can said run-off areas be satisfactory for public transport operations on November 30 and not on December 1 ?
The CAA have bent over backwards to help NewquayBut they haven't actually had a success because the field has been closed. Plenty of marks from me for bending over backwards and actually achieving something. But that hasn't happened.

[danieloakworth]

The CAA can only do so much, they can't write the SC's for the equipment (unless it's Kincardine :E).

[GROUNDHOG]

As TCAS FAN has asked who were the consultants, let's name and shame them or were the council really stupid enough to try to do this single handed?? Surely it is time that heads rolled.

[danieloakworth]

No the Council brought in specialist groups to manage the various parts of the Project. I believe the Project was managed by APD and Turner/Townsend. The Navaids were all provided by Selex.

[GROUNDHOG]

Thanks, by the way if you want a copy of the masterplan the Council are charging £40 for it!!! Not much good for a consultation document that pensioners etc may not have internet access to is it?

So it would appear then that APD consulting who look on the face of it to have plenty of experience in these matters might just know exactly what went wrong!

They are also responsible in part for the master plan so if the handover was a c@ck up why should the master plan be any different?

[racedo]

You can have the best laid out masterplan in the world written by the best people but its a bit like putting a drunken chav in a Ferrari and expecting him to compete in F1.

CCC resemble the drunken Chav in case anybody is wondering:rolleyes:

[west lakes]

How can said run-off areas be satisfactory for public transport operations on November 30 and not on December 1 ?

It is quite common that as legislation and standards change there is no requirement to take retrospective action. If however work is being carried out and conditions change the new specs will be enforced.

An example, in the Electricity Industry the minimum height of 11,000 volt overhead lines used to be 5.7m over fields and 5.9m over roads. The latest legislation sets this height at 6.0m. There is no requirement for companies to go and raise every line to the new height unless major work is being carried out anyway.

[danieloakworth]

I don't see how this can be the fault of the CAA, the requirement was clear and professionals were used to run the Project. IF they've been allowed to do their job unimpeeded then they shoudl have delivered. Suspect this is one of those jobs that nobody can claim any credit from.

[footster]

It has been announced that it has cost Cornwall County Council upto £6 million in the last Twelve months in consultants fees to get the airport ready for the handover to a civil airport.Thats alot of £5s to get back from the passengers in airport tax.:):):):)

[GROUNDHOG]

but the good news is think of all those rich consultants that can now fly from the airport....

[bravoromeosierra]

Unless their payment is waived for being associated with the airport. :}

[footster]

According to the Locall BBC news and a Cornwall County Council official it is highly unlikely that the airport will reopen this side of Christmas. They reckon the delays have been caused due to the fact they were unable to carry out certain works like the replacement of the runway lighting as the RAF were still using the airbase and other works could only be carried out at night when the airbase was closed over night. Forgive me if I seem a bit thick but didnt they know the RAF would use the base upto the day they left and civil flights were still coming and going aswell when they set the handover date in the first place and they would have these problems.

[SID East]

...delays have been caused due to the fact they were unable to carry out certain works like the replacement of the runway lighting as the RAF were still using the airbase...

Let us not forget that the RAF had already delayed its withdrawal of airfield services at Newquay, purely to allow said works and licensing to take place without closing the airport. In the last few months there has been no military interest at St Mawgan and the only airfield user has been Newquay airport. The airport development team could have closed the airfield for a day here or there to replace the runway lighting in time. No excuse. I think the RAF is well rid of this arrangement!

My understanding is that those "in the know" believed many months ago that the airport would not be ready on 1 Dec, rather than the last minute hitch that has been reported.

[Pie Man]

That's a bit rich from Cornwall County Council. As I understand it the RAF ceased military flying on 31 July and wanted to close the airfield. The Council asked the RAF to provide air traffic services until they were ready as closing the airfield would mean financial problems. The runway resurfacing and lighting replacement has been completed on time with the RAF accepting the risk of continued operations not the Council.

In an video on the this is Cornwall - News, Sport and Entertainment news from Cornwall (http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk) site the Colin Jarvis (Deputy Director, Cornwall County Council) states the CAA complimented them on the runway and standard of runway lighting. He also says the CAA complimented them on the way they worked on a live airfield - as indicated earlier I think the RAF staff managed that risk.

The major show stopper as far as the Council are concerned is air traffic control is not up and running, that was totally in their hands.

Pie

Edited: SID East beat me to it!

[danieloakworth]

It looks like the current problem relates to a CAA requirement for some work on the 'clear and graded' area. This will need heavy macinery/diggers and the ground is too soft at the moment.

[Capot]

You make it sound as though this requirement is something new the CAA have introduced. although I realise you may not mean to..

Just to clarify for anyone who may wonder if CCC have any excuse here, they have not. The requirements for airfields are very simple to understand and there is nothing significantly new in what the CAA expects of Newquay, or anywhere else.

If that figure of £6m to consultants is right, words fail me. Most competent advisers on airfield requirements could have told CCC what was needed, and even project managed the very, very simple task of conversion from military, for less than £300,000. And CCC were aware of that. If I were a Cornwall ratepayer I would be reaching for a lawyer, or rather forming a group to reach for one for recovery of that cash from the Council staff and members involved in what can only have been a huge scam.

But the figure might have been for the whole project, not just the consultants. Even so it was remarkably badly spent.

[GROUNDHOG]

The masterplan....
Would love to hear what others think after reading - or maybe you wrote it- this hefty document. My view?
Of the 360 pages about 75% are the usual fluff and nonsense and really say nothing. The rest is all quite positive and full of good intent based on well founded ideas. A very professionally produced document. Indeed it would appear that the consultants used are a highly reputable company that have plenty of experience in airport management.

Great future for Newquay then.............or is it?

Four years ago I met with Colin Jarvis , Head of Transportation CCC and handed over a scruffy piece of paper with pretty much exactly the same ideas written on it and the cost to the ratepayer was a cup of coffee. It took me about ten minutes to produce the document ( and fourty years working in the business) and was politely received then probably discarded.

Worryingly several millions of pounds later what we now have is a masterplan produced by the same people that handled the change over from the RAF in the same hands CCC who implemented it - or rather didn't.

With the Keystone Cops running the show I can see no good reason why the aims of the document will ever be achieved but every reason why many more millions will be wasted in trying to do so.

CCC have asked for opinions on the plan but somehow I just cannot bring myself to do this. The masterplan actually typifies quite well what CCC represents - 75% fluff and nonsense ( at great expense) and 25% actual action. As much as I would love to make an input it just feels like a complete waste of time and my opinion will probably just dissappear into the system only to be ignored (again).

The best thing for the future of Newquay Airport would be to go round with a big for sale sign and get it into commercial hands - on current performance at least CCC couldn't be accused of selling the crown jewels now could they?

[Capot]

Groundhog

handed over a scruffy piece of paper with pretty much exactly the same ideas written on it and the cost to the ratepayer was a cup of coffee. It took me about ten minutes to produce the document ( and fourty years working in the business) and was politely received then probably discarded.Pretty much, that makes 2 of us who did that.....As I said

Most competent advisers on airfield requirements could have told CCC what was needed, and even project managed the very, very simple task of conversion from military, for less than £300,000. And CCC were aware of that.That £300K figure was a guess at what a very big, competent firm would have billed by the time the project was finished; an independent would have been just as good and much, much less.

[GROUNDHOG]

Flybe to operate LGW 3 times daily and Ryanair not to restart STN until March

NQY/LGW 20/01 21/01 LGW/NQY Air Southwest quote £160.00

Flybe price £29.99 one way all inclusive.

Should be interesting?

[cornishsimon]

i would guess the price difference is because WOW have already sold most of the seats on those services! Flybe have only just loaded them into the booking engine so chances are that you are getting quoted for seats on an empty aircraft.

Do you have some sort of beef with Airsouthwest GROUNDHOG ?

[GROUNDHOG]

Absolutely not, in fact the late Jim Cameron was a personal friend. Just to clarify I have no commercial interest with any aviation company now since I am retired. I am sure ASW are a great bunch of people.

I want to fly to Gatwick on 20th January and again 20th February, if I can fly with Flybe at the time I want to go for £59.99 return and it is going to cost me twice as much with ASW via Plymouth why on earth would I go with them?

[Wycombe]

But I bet they be very relieved that Flybe can't get into PLH.

[Flying Beancounter]

e-mail just received from Flybe:
"First 200 win free flights on our new Newquay to London route!
As you may have heard, this afternoon Flybe announced the start of a brand new route from Newquay to London Gatwick which will operate from the 15th February 2009. We will be flying direct to London up to 3 times per day with our great low fares starting from just £29.99 one way, that's 23% cheaper than Air Southwest.
Tickets go on sale today, so to celebrate the start of this new route, and to show our long-term commitment to passengers travelling from Newquay, we are offering the first 200 people that book a return flight from Newquay to London Gatwick, a free return flight on the same route in 2010. Simply book your flights now and if you are one of the first 200 we will contact you by telephone before the 15th February 2009 and issue you with a free flight voucher......"

[L G Double-Yew]

Once the initial Flybe hype is out of the way, I'm sure their fares will be around the same as ASW's fares, or else BE won't be able to make any money on the route.
So then it comes down to customer choice. ASW is a great little airline, with smiley crew and no funny business in terms of added charges for bags etc etc. And they fly to loads of other places from NQY, not just LGW, so they deserve (and I'm sure will get) local support.

[Cloud1]

Hmmm a Ryanair type of response from Air Southwest - did not see that one coming. I thought they were slightly more dignified. Could it be the CEO is actually very worried and feels this is the only thing he can do, I certainly think so.

[Martin the Martian]

But it is difficult to disagree with what he says.

flyBE have made several grand announcements regarding services at Newquay, and few of them have actually happened. And if he is worried, I don't blame him. If it came to a price war, would your money (ahem) be on a small operator suxh as ASW or a company with the resources of flyBE?

And if it caused ASW to go tits up, how long would it take for flyBE to raise their fares on a route they would have then have a monopoly on?

[JobsaGoodun]

I read many of these posts with interest and as an avid airline enthusiast over the years.

10yrs ago Jersey European found themselves under the pin of the likes of Easyjet who were encroaching on their routes between BRS, STN and Belfast. At the time, the comments were that JEA were 'far too expensive' despite having provided good service on these routes for a number of years. Eventually, unable to compete with the low fares, JEA withdrew their services and looked for alternatives. They transformed themselves into Flybe which has proved an incredible success.

The tables have now turned, and as horrible as that may be for Air Southwest, they will need to create some sort of 'unique selling point' to ensure that they can compete with Flybe.

At this time, it's the survival of the fittest. Will ASW be around for next Christmas, lets hope so. I'm sure it won't be due to a lack of trying.

[Cloud1]

I know it would be very difficult to argue what he says....I have tried in the past to explain the ins and outs of the NQY routes but I dont deny Flybe have not painted the best picture.

Interesting response back from Mr Rutter though offering 200 free seats (I assume taxes still have to be paid) for any NQY-LGW service in 2010! Clearly confident they will stay on the route - a silly comment in my opinion as you simply do not know what is around the corner but oh well.

[footster]

Flymaybe's record operating out of Newquay is not great new routes promised and some got off the ground and just faded out and others didnt even start so whats to say this is just another one of Flymaybes publicity stunts. And having flown with Flymaybe and got stung with their hidden costs I guess this will be the same with the prices on this route.

[Cloud1]

Well Footster, I would like to think this time it will be different. We have been looking at the route for more than 2 years so a lot of time and effort has gone into it. Flybe are investing a lot, and I mean a lot, of money into the route and have as mentioned above offered free flights for 2010. If they were to pull it they would be in a really bad situation with all the free tickets promised so can't imagine they will just drop it.

The costs are not hidden if you read the website. The introductory fees are very good but of course they will go up as the plane fills up.

I must admit it will take a lot to convince Cornish folk to use them but if they are willing to invest only time will tell.;)

[GROUNDHOG]

local news reports tonight that the airport will re open on 20th ( next Saturday).

[west lakes]

BBC NEWS | England | Cornwall | Newquay Airport granted licence (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7790667.stm)

though Ryanair pax who have been bussed to alternates by the airport won't be going anywhere.

[stolport]

All routes with airsouthwest from Newquay are only £29 during January:ok:

Air Southwest (http://email.airsouthwest.com/q/1cPdtN8BtIIR/wv)

Includes all destinations excluding Grenoble.

A good pre flybe move:ok:

[L G Double-Yew]

Every ASW Newquay flight in January (apart from Grenoble) really is £29. And that includes the taxes. And baggage. Now how refreshing is that?
www.airsouthwest.com (http://www.airsouthwest.com)

[horatio_b]

Correct: I checked the price for a return flight Manchester-Newquay in January
£58 return travelling via Bristol

Yet if I just want to do Manchester-Bristol return it comes to £119 - very odd!

[ALLMCC]

Having checked Flybe's website, it looks as though they will not be operating the summer only BHD - NQY next year, Would this be an opportunity for ASW to extend their network a little further?

[EI-BUD]

Jet2 are coming on to Belfast Newquay operating from BFS for the summer season, so perhaps ASW wont look at it.

So Flybe are launching LGW NQY complete bully tactics here. Flybe have said that they have aspirations to grow at LGW and then they they get onto a route where there will be a price war and losses until they get rid of ASW. In my view NQY is another airport where they want exclusivity just like at Exeter so that they can bully airport management.

Personally I have little time for Flybe, another IOM story all over again. We will see what happens when Flybe end up getting the same treatment from FR, FR will eventually get onto a exact same route as Flybe and we will see how Flybe fair.

I think ASW is a great little company and I really do hope that the locals show loyalty to them.

EI-BUD

[CorkEICK]

I think ASW is a great little company and I really do hope that the locals show loyalty to them

Just like all the locals in Cork showed to Aer Arann on Cork Dublin route you mean??

[bravoromeosierra]

There was a Thomson 767 in this morning operating a cruise charter to Barbados/Bridgetown.

[old,not bold]

Must be a day for being grumpy.......




Big headlines in the local SW rag yesterday

RYANAIR SEEKS PAYOUT OVER AIRPORT CLOSURE

Quite right too; the sums hinted at are huge. The paper points out that FR went for £455,000 for a few hours closure at STN.

ASW and Skybus are joining in the fun.

Now, it would be a shame if the taxpayers end up paying for their Council's incompetence.

I know; the officials responsible, from the Town Clerk (Chief Executive or whatever grandiose title is used) downwards should be made to fork out the sums awarded from their obscenely, ridiculously high salaries, if necessary for the next few years. They could manage several millions with even having to cut back much.

After all, they are always telling us how they get these bloated salaries because they have to "take responsibility", and that they are "worth every penny".

So let's see some "responsibility" being taken.

The whole affair was a fiasco.

[GROUNDHOG]

Councillor Whalley has it seems survived a vote of no confidence. Now I wonder what the outcome would have been if the rate payers had voted on that?

[old,not bold]

There was a Thomson 767 in this morning

Sets me to thinking...

What's the current Fire & Rescue Category? And runway Cat? Anyone know?

Presumably the provision for occasional operations by aircraft 1 or 2 FRS Cats above might have been used.

But is the airfield really equipped for B767 and wide-body fire suppression and evacuation assistance; foam, rescue equipment, trained personnel, breathing gear, etc etc etc?

I wonder when the last full-scale, blue-light crash exercise was carried out.

I'm asking, not hinting that I know things are not kosher. I just don't know, and am interested.

[west lakes]

From the NATS site


1 AD Category for fire fighting:
RFF Category 7. Category 8 by prior arrangement (12 hours notice required).

2 Rescue equipment:
3 x Panther 6 x 6 CA-5.

http://www.sasgar.com.au/media/images/products/pantherca5-2.jpg

Cat 7 is 39 up to 49m fuselage length and 5m width
Cat 8 is 49 up to 61m fuselage length and 7m width

Though I somehow doubt that anyone would be allowed to operate if the capability was not up to legal requirements!!

[learjet50]

Old not Bold

Do you really think Thompson would operate to an Airfield without the correct fire cover ??

NO

These flights from Airports not served on a regular basis are looked at very close

They also look at Terminal Capacity Loading Equipment etc


Thompson fly are not Idiots they have been going too long ????


Maybe Air Mooriche (Based in a Third world country)with its Tri Star may not not be bothered about airfield fire cover etc but be assured the reputable airlines do

[silverstreak]

... easy on the Tristar mate, its a wonderful aircraft!

[bravoromeosierra]

I'm asking, not hinting that I know things are not kosher. I just don't know, and am interested.

Kosher meals on departing flights from Newquay however may be a problem! :8

[virginblue]

The paper points out that FR went for £455,000 for a few hours closure at STN.

The few hours at STN probably affected more Ryanair flights than three weeks of Ryanair operations at NQY :=

[old,not bold]

BBC reported today that the person to lead a fearless, independent investigation into the fiasco that was Cornwall County Council's handling of the take-over of Newquay from the RAF has been selected, by Cornwall County Council.

This is excellent news. We can now expect that no stone will be left unturned as this expert, hard-hitting investigator spares no feelings as he uncovers the person or persons responsible, and exposes their inadeqacies to the public gaze.

This champion of the people will not shrink from pointing the finger at those senior Council officials whose incompetence, laziness and stupidity led to the disaster that could still cost the taxpayers millions.

After all, he should know where to look. He's the ex-Chief Executive of, guess what........................

........... Cornwall County Council.


You couldn't make it up.

[extalex]

Does anyone know what the current stand capacity is at Newquay? Are they still using the RAF 'pans?' sadly the UK AIP proves to be of no use and can't seem to find any information anywhere :D

Cheers,

Alex

[cornishsimon]

cant remember the exact number of stands but it has been increased since initial mod days, i think they can easily deal with 2 737's and about 4 dh8's but i cant give exacts

[rog747]

i was at NQY last summer for a few flights,
quaint little airport but really the builders were a right bunch of cowboys doing the new terminal make-over... (have they watched the tele programs?)

the door handle came off in my hand and the taps in the new gents loos were stuck on so 100's litres of water per hour were draining away,
24 hours later the taps were still like that and one had fallen off...
i found the builders boss (had hard hat on, so it must have been him lol) and
he said the build quality was a mess, oh dear,

and you ripped me off NQY £5 a flight for the privilidge of sitting in a shed...
hey ho....

[bravoromeosierra]

BE started LGW this morning.

[Maverick8701]

.................Everything ok so far?

[GROUNDHOG]

So what is the feeling on the ground then, I know the service has only just begun but I would imagine any impact on other services would be apparant from pretty much day one?

[L G Double-Yew]

ASW seemed pretty full in and out of LGW today, so presumably not having that much of an impact.

I don't know what BE's loads were today. But actually what their loads are is largely irrelevant. As far as I can see they've been selling most of their seats on this route at about 30 quid each way including taxes/charges. Going by their website, their taxes/charges alone are not far short of 30 quid each way. And that's before they've covered cost of landing fees, fuel, handling, ATC charges, maintenance costs, aircraft lease, crew salaries, marketing, etc etc etc. So even if they fill the aircraft at that price, they'll be losing a pile of money on the route. Which makes this route an odd way to deploy an expensive asset.

All very odd if you ask me.

[Cloud1]

I am sure that the baggage charges and other ancilliary revenue make up for some of the shortfall....

[GROUNDHOG]

Whatever happens in the short term it is unlikely both ASW and Flybe will operate this route alongside each other in the long term.

The main difference is that NQY/PLH/LGW was the raison d'etre for ASW and is most probably still the major contributor to the bottom line , whereas for Flybe it is not.

In the event loads support only one carrier if Flybe dropped the route it would be a loss of investment but if ASW had to drop it the impact on them would be much harder.

Flybe management have to be aware of this so running as a loss leader for a period of time is arguably not a problem for them.

On the positive side I have a feeling that with the weakness of the pound against the Euro we may see an increase in visitor numbers to Cornwall this year! Let's hope so as last year wasn't the best for local businesses thanks largely to the rotten weather.

Only time will tell.........

[Drink Up Thee Cider]

I don't know what BE's loads were today


I understand they have been as high as 80% and would guess Flybe will be more than pleased with that given that they've been less than a week on the route.......

[L G Double-Yew]

Sorry to be a bore, but it doesn't matter how many passengers they carry - if (as it seems) they are selling most of the seats for "taxes only" (about 30 quid) then it loses a packet of money.
The airline game is all about balancing pax numbers and average fare (yield).
Loads of pax at not much yield = Loss making route
Not many pax at high yield = Loss making route
Reasonable number of pax at reasonable yield = Possibility of making money

[JobsaGoodun]

Don't disagree with anything said, however how many people originating in NQY?LGW are willing to pay a premium not to have to stop at PLH?

Flybe seem to have done pretty well out of making money over the last couple years and I see no reason why the LGWNQY route will not provide the same over time.

[MaxReheat]

'I am sure that the baggage charges and other ancilliary revenue make up for some of the shortfall....'

It is that shortfall that flybe will take as long as it takes to kill off ASW. Flybe has done it in the past and will continue to do so. I'm very surprised that 'monopoly' with regard to the UK domestic system hasn't yet been shouted by the few remaining UK regional operators.

[Maverick8701]

Think monopoly is a bit strong. Business is business in every industry this happens depends on the strength of your product! As a consumer why buy an inferior product when something else is available. For example im sure you wouldn't buy a car from a company with a bad reliability record just to support the company you buy a car that will be good value for you! Especially in these times travellers are looking for the good delas and ways to save money.

If the ASW product is that good then they will have no problems at all and you may see Flybe come off the route but can't see many people wanting to stop in plymouth and pay more for the that.

Can't blame Flybe for offering the service. With open skies this is going to happen more and more across the airline industry which will force operators to up their game which can only be good for the customer!!

M

[cornishsimon]

agreed with whats being said, but in all honesty i cant see either operator going anywhere anytime soon, thats my opinion!

hopefully with UK holidays being a bit more popular during summer 09 we will see both WOW and BE operate with decent loads, especially with BE's onward network from LGW (s)

it would be good to see WOW operate as a codeshare for BA to allow onward connection via LGW (n) and it would also be good to see BE do something with the Q400 which seems to be sat on the ground at NQY for quite a while after the 1st rotation to LGW (new route?)

cs

[MaxReheat]

That may be the case with washing machines or cars but in the airline world it just doesn't work like that. The stronger airline (ie the one that can stand the finacial pain long enough) will prevail and is then it is nigh on impossible for a competitor to set up on the route unless, of course, that airline is bigger and can take more pain than the previous victor. Flybe is unassailable in the UK market and it is the passenger that suffers where there is no choice. One can glibly talk about 'improving service' but the laws of winning and losing on routes is more basic than that and comes down to price. That is the bottom line for the majority of passengers. And when there is no competition there is only one price; that is why monopoly is not good.

[Maverick8701]

Fair enough understand where your coming from re the monopolies and if for example ASW pulled off the route flybe could charge what they want. Fingers crossed enough business for both!!

[arnoldk]

Interesting comment MaxReheat - so a monopoly operated by a public listed company such as ASW is OK, but by a private company such as Flybe is not?

Discuss.

[MaxReheat]

I am not advocating a monopoly for ASW either. What I am questioning are the motives of flybe competing with an existing, established carrier on the route. The answer is quite clear (I think) as it has done the same on many routes around the UK and became the 'new' monopoly carrier.

Of course, the 'free market' advocates will say that this is the law of the commercial jungle - but try telling that to the ASW employees when the P45s are handed out simply because someone at Exeter decided that they were the next targets on the list.

[arnoldk]

MaxReheat

I am sorry to be pedantic, but advocating a monopoly for ASW is exactly what you are doing!

If you disagree, please explain what competition for ASW is acceptable to you. An unsuccessful business that wouldn't last for long in the 'commercial jungle'? Explain that away to the employees of said unsuccessful airline when the P45s are handed out.

Come on, please be balanced.

[JobsaGoodun]

At the end of the day, the motives for Flybe will be the same as any business at the moment and that will be survival. There will also be a desire to expand the business to the benefit of the employees and shareholders. This is surely the motive for any business wanting to suceed.

It is irrelevent where the competition comes from. Each side will want to succeed and it is possible that one will prevail over the other. It happens all the time in all businesses.

EZY came along and push BE off BHDSTN/BHDBRS etc
BE then diversified into alternative markets and looked at routes operated by Eastern/Euromanx etc via the acquisition of BAConnect.
It's survival of the fittest now, if ever it was. The likes of EZY/FR have many aircraft still be be delivered and when they don't want to risk new routes, they'll probably look at exisiting routes that they feel they can compete on, this will have a knock on effect for the whole industry.

[Maverick8701]

Couldn't agree more with JobsaGoodun in the current economic climate it will be survival of the fittest and I don't think flybe are "out to get anyone" they are just looking after there best interests. Of which ASW will need to. It think I read somewhere that ASW had started Plymouth GCI now that could be deemed retaliation _(NQY-LGW) to Flybe's EXT-GCI but nobody is whinging about competition in that respect all be it a slightly different route.

M

[beauport potato man]

Eh? I went on holiday to Cornwall 2 weeks ago and the ASW flight LGW - NQY definately stopped at Plymouth, unless i was imagining the whole thing?

[west lakes]

Just checked the time table, it's a bit of both
NQY - LGW all direct
LGW - NQY first three via Plymouth, last flight of day direct

Also bear in mind that BA also used to operate this route, so two airlines operating between NQY & LGW is not new

[cornishsimon]

BA operated LGW-NQY-LGW with a mix of 733, 734, 735 and 319's

the thought at the time was that it was a slot keeper at LGW but did prove to be popular during the summer over weekends by all accounts

[bravoromeosierra]

Anyone know anything about the business lounge at NQY?

I know it was planned to be built.

[uncovered]

Flybe achieve market leadership in first full month of operation. The pax and Yield loss to ASW must be substansial. Ouch!

Flybe scoops lion's share of London Gatwick to Newquay market

06 April 2009

<New direct service scoops lion’s share of the market after just one month in operation>
Flybe, Europe’s largest and most successful regional airline, today revealed that its new service from London Gatwick to Newquay has been huge success. Its popularity, by providing the only direct service between the South West and the UK Capital, has not only led to the airline securing an impressive 56% market share after just a month but also towards the incredible 83% overall rise in passengers between the two destinations!

The triple-daily route, launched on February 15th, has clearly struck a positive chord with passengers to such an extent that Flybe has increased frequency on its Sunday service throughout the summer.

[GROUNDHOG]

Is that a press release or from some bona fide organisation?

[cornishsimon]

think the pess release if from flybe's website

[west lakes]

Ain't statistics without detail marvelous!!

So Flybe have 3 flights daily to LGW with a Q400 (capacity 70 - 78 seats)
Air Southwest use the Q300 (capacity 50 - 56 seats)

Not knowing the individual configurations I'll work with both having the maximum seating figure

So BE have up to 234 seats each way daily, WOW up to 168 each way.

So with a bit of maths BE have 58% of the route capacity & WOW 42%

(each carriers seats divided by total capacity)

Yet BE have 56% and WOW 44% of total pax carried, doesn't look too bad for either of them in that the utilisation and the capacity are nearly matched.

Of course it doesn't give total pax numbers though.

[ATP_Al]

west lakes

Good analysis but aren't WOW are selling seats to/from Plymouth as well? If so then they must be filling a much greater percentage of the capacity actually available to/from Newquay

Just a thought

[west lakes]

ATP
Correct, it does exclude the Plymouth effect!
To be honest the whole percentage game is meaningless anyway without actual passenger figures.

It'll be interesting to see how it develops over the coming months.

I note that the BMI Baby vs ASW Manchester flights haven't rated a mention on here!

[bravoromeosierra]

Most of these press releases are generated by FlyBe in MOL-style to simply shun off ASW. Both airlines know they're up against it competing between NQY and LGW.. FlyBe are just antagonising the press etc.

The difference is that we can't see Baby doing the same, because the impression we get is that they're not exactly trying to compete. They're both going for different markets; BMI the bucket and spade market, and ASW the businessmen from BRS- mainly!

[Cloud1]

Most of these press releases are generated by FlyBe in MOL-style to simply shun off ASW. Both airlines know they're up against it competing between NQY and LGW.. FlyBe are just antagonising the press etc.


I fail to see how Flybe's press release is any different to Air Southwest bragging on abouts its succesful London City bookings......I think you will find that these two airlines make out they are head to head all the time but actually behind the scenes they work well together. For example WOW seem to book a large number of passengers onto Flybe flights when they have problems!

One airline will brag about how well they are doing and minutes later so will the other. Nothing different here to any other carrier really :ok:

[masu]

HI , first time listing and need a little help , anybody know which company carry's out bird control and airfield ops at Newquay Airport.

thanks.

[cornishsimon]

hi, welcome to the forum.

as far as i am aware bird control, airfield ops, fire, atc, baggage etc etc etc is all undertaken by cornwall airport ltd. a company owned by cornwall county council

CS

[Rubber Duck]

BCU is undertaken by North West Bird Control. As CS suggests all other acitvities are carried out by the Airport Company.

[masu]

Thankyou both very much for your help.

[tommyc2005]

Looking at the actual figures for the LGW route, ASW are probably hurting but Flybe seem to be coming off worse.

8183 pax travelled in total. Even if every single one flew with BE, that only gives them 46 pax per flight, 59% LF. Not good. A more realistic figure is the 56% that they state - 4583 - which gives 25.7 pax per flight/33% LF - ouch!

That figure is given credibility by the amount it would leave for ASW - 3600, or 14.5 per flight. This compares with 21.63 in 2008 (a drop of 32%). Plymouth is down 18% on 2008, so if we presume that would have been replicated in NQY the actual hit on ASW's numbers by BE is also an 18% reduction. The overall LF for ASW into LGW is 64.3%, so while not great is much better than Flybe. Of course, the normal disclaimer applies: we don't know the yield. However, for BE in particular this is unlikely to be great.

On the basis of the figures above, even if BE were to drive ASW away completely, the numbers don't seem to be there for them to make a go of the route long term, not outside of summer anyway.

[Wycombe]

A typical aeroplane vs. train conundrum:

One Saturday this August I need to convey myself by public transport one-way from Berkshire to West Cornwall (to join rest of family who will have already been under canvas for a week).

Thought I'd try the Flybe service LGW-NQY, the fact I can currently get a flight on a peak season Saturday for about £30 all-in probably tells you something. I'd have to add to that probably about £15-£20 to get me to LGW on the train.

Then I looked at train prices, and found that for a train that leaves Reading on Saturday lunchtime, I can travel to Penzance for £37 in First Class! (or £27 in standard).

Door-to-door (or tent!) times for the 2 will probably be about the same, so I think First Great Western have it.

[djkenrob]

Very bright arc lights are now being used at the airport, does anyone know if these are there for good or just temporary - the airport is closed at night. :confused:

[Daysleeper]

One Saturday this August

You have heard of weekend engineering works and rail replacement bus services?

Still that said there aren't any works planned at the moment on that route and 1st is very pleasant.

[Wycombe]

Yes, indeed - have endured a few rail replacement buses in my time.

My post was more to make the point that I was expecting the Flybe fare to be a bit higher for a Saturday in peak season.

[cornishsimon]

quick update,
BE to IOM up and running

WW to Birmingham now started

Jet2 starts tomorrow

arrivals looking good for today!

[west lakes]

Branching out a bit

http://www.newquaycornwallairport.com/media/pdf/s/c/New_York_Combined_Brochure.pdf

[0523 cov man]

what airline is doing newyork
0523 cov man

[cornishsimon]

being operated on a 757 by jet2

[Cloud1]

757 as stated in the brochure which was the link......

Prices not bad considering your flying from your doorstep not sure there is going to be the special charter from Exeter this year which is a shame. The long slog up to London for me, not a great fan of going all that way on a 757! (CO from Bristol)

[RSOL]

NQY's business lounge has been completed and is available to use. Cost £15 entry on a business class ticket. Views over the main apron and runway not the best as viewing area is at ground level.

[RSOL]

anybody know what cargo company will be setting up at NQY and when?

[cornishsimon]

anybody know what cargo company will be setting up at NQY and when?
Didnt know we were getting one at the moment?
it would make sense if you ask me for at the very least royal mail to fly mail and parcels NQY-EMA instead of trucking to EXT to fly it from there! just my opinion!!

[GROUNDHOG]

Find it hard to imagine the benefits of Newquay as a cargo hub though there was some talk of an ambitious plan a while ago but thought that had all gone away. Agree with cornishsimon I have often wondered the same thing myself. Used internet tracking for a couple of parcels delivered by post and the route does some rather strange.

[cornishsimon]

Take a look at the bit on top gear last week charting the progress of a letter posted on ios, s-61 from ios - penzance, road via truro for sorting to exeter, then EXT-EMA flight and on from there.

If you can still get it its a good watch, shows the network of road and aircraft that royal mail use, just really baffled me as to why they moved it by road to EXT and then upto EMA by air instead of straight NQY-EMA perhaps using skybus or wow as a contractor to carry the mail and parcels ?

[RSOL]

From what i've heard there has been some interest and rumours buzzing around NQY that several cargo companies are interested. Plans are to utilise the existing redundant hangars (404, 402) left over from when the MOD pulled out. An access road from behind one of the old hangars(404) has already been submitted and approved by CCC and is due to start work soon.

Personally I think it makes sense to use NQY as a cargo hub as it the 1st mainland airport that aircraft from the USA come across. Theres plenty of traffic that passes overhead going to and from the states.
Plus there's the added bonus of the runway length that can take anything that's flying at the moment. And there is gallons of space on the south side of the runway. I'm sure the big wigs at NQY would like to rent some of it out and start making some extra ££££££.

[EGTE]

Just a fer thoughts...

Presumably there is insufficient demand for Royal Mail to operate services from both NQY and EXT to EMA. If the operation was switched to NQY it would surely not save on road transport as mail from east and north Devon would have to be trucked to NQY. I would guess that the business community in and around the Exeter area may produce more mail than that of Cornwall and therefore more trucks may be required (at greater cost) than at present.

There may also be a weather issue involved as well. EXT has a pretty good record weather-wise and accepts far more diversions than it has to turn aircraft away. That would imply the possibility of a more reliable service for Royal Mail than if it operated from NQY.

As well as the Jet2/Channel Express service from EXT to EMA, Titan also operate a B733 nightly to/from STN.

[kernowbird]

Twenty years ago the mail went by air, courtesy of a Queen Air or Islander routing NQY-EXT-EMA-EXT.
The idea of a feeder flight from NQY to EXT to link with the B737 for outgoing mail might work but the cost of a return flight at silly o' clock might scupper the idea

[turbroprop]

Hello RSOL

Re Cargo Ops from Newquay. No logic in your idea of landing at Newquay as it is the first port of call across the pond. These aircraft go to hubs that link up with flights from Asia Africa etc. eg Liege, Leipzig East Midlands or Luxemburg. From these hubs smaller aircraft feed other airports in Europe. Newquay could only be at best a feeder airport and not a hub. Just out of interest look up the DHL operation from Leipzig. You would soon realise that Newquay airport is too small and that includes the hangars.

[RSOL]

Turboprop.

I never mention anything about NQY becoming a major cargo hub. Any airport that has a cargo company onsite that fly's frieght in and out becomes a hub of some sort. I said that several cargo companies are rumoured to be interested in the disused areas on the south side of the airfield. And as you said, there is not enough space to compete with Leipzig or East Midlands. But, Somebody, somewhere must thing they could make ££££ from NQY as a cargo hub, otherwise there wouldn't be a road being constructed at the moment to accommodate any cargo company going into one of the disused hangars.

[cornishsimon]

so who is the cargo operator looking at NQY ?

[GROUNDHOG]

I see the report is out about last year's debacle - no surprises there then and I wonder how much that cost the ratepayer! A cargo hub is not the way forward for Newquay nor are a handful of extra services by here today gone tomorrow airlines. What is needed is to build an infrastructure based around other aviation and non aviation business but whilst CCC have the desire to do this they do not have the funding or ability within the ranks.

I know all the enthusiasts want to see strings of gleaming jets in the skies but that isn't going to happen and other contributors to maintaining the viability of the site must be found.

I hate the expression "thinking outside the box" but that is what is needed right now.

[Phileas Fogg]

(there's the added bonus of the runway length that can take anything that's flying at the moment)

RSOL,

You talk about cargo operations and St. Mawgan's runway length being able to take anything that is flying at present?

I think you need to go back to the drawing board, cargo aircraft do not carry 'lightweight' passengers, they carry cargo and often up to max payload, a lost kilo is lost revenue, and thereafter live in hope that they can get enough fuel on board, up to MTOW, to make it to their next destination and/or refuelling stop.

I recall occupying much of a night shift once trying to plan a max payload DC8-62 from Europe to the States, our normal refuelling point would have been Gander however eastern Canada was fogbound.

We obviously had to plan to the first point in USA, Bangor, but needed to stop, beforehand, in SNN or PIK and PIK has a significantly longer runway than NQY. The DC8 couldn't get to BGR from SNN and, even using standard flap settings couldn't make it from PIK, I needed to plan non standard flap settings and even then it needed, literally, every inch of PIK's runway to get off the ground and the crew commented so afterwards.

And if max payload aircraft are to take a southerly track across the pond, as we then sometimes looked at options of, then there is Brest airport with a more appropriate runway length than NQY.

[Dash-7 lover]

Q400 flew over the pub at 2345L last night inbound to NQY - weather was fine yesterday - anyone know why? (also note the cabin lights were not dimmed for landing - seems to be a Flybe thing as I've noticed on countless times before at other airports)

[west lakes]

Probably the late running LGW which, I'm told, can often pick up delays during the day (Air Southwaest are no different)
The airport can extend until 24:00 (well ATC anyway) on occasion for this situation

[bravoromeosierra]

Two hours late again tonight.

[Phileas Fogg]

No such time as 24:00, there is a time of 23:59:59 before a clock reverts to 00:00 !

[Dash-7 lover]

WEST LAKES - I beg to differ..... the night in question the last SZ flight from LGW was 10mins early and last night 7 mins late landing at NQY.

PHILEAS FOGG - Things are a little more advance these days, I dont think we're talking DC8-62's.....

GROUNDHOG - it's a about maximising your potential and if making NQY some sort of cargo hub boosts revenue by even the smallest amount then it's worth doing not only for Cornwall. It's worth exploring. A biz jet centre would be worth a shot too then get the marketing and tourist boards over to the USA!! Cornwalls main income is tourism and we now have the airport and the space to go forwards.

[west lakes]

he night in question the last SZ flight from LGW was 10mins early and last night 7 mins late landing at NQY.

I was nor refering to SZ on those nights, but that it is not unknown for them to be running late and require an extension.

[Dash-7 lover]

westlakes - thanks for that - i'm grateful for the extensions when needed but back to original question?

[west lakes]

Leave that with me I'll ask someone who can find out!!

[Phileas Fogg]

Dash 7 lover,

RSOL is misinformed, or ignorant, making a statement that the St. Mawgan runway is long enough to take anything flying today.

Whilst the DC8 is just one example, that remains flying today, in the cargo sector, and will continue flying for many years to come there will be other aircraft types also that, at MTOW, St. Mawgan's runway will not be long enough to accommodate!

If NQY want to stick with modern aircraft, at less than MTOW, then stick with the passenger sector.

[Deano777]

Dash7

The delayed BE flight into NQY was due to a delay picked up during the morning that couldn't be recovered throughout that day.

[Bundanoon]

PF, as you are so informed can you tell me what aircraft cannot use a 2744m runway? obviously you have not been round the world in any time, never mind 80 days and you are just as ignorant as the ill informed on this site. Whilst the taxiway infrastructure will struggle with some a/c types the majority will operate under special operations, which open up a lot of opportunities.

NQY can be what it wants to be, following Mills the Airport has the correct management team to deliver. Give it time away from the Council mandate, nothing happens over night and will take time!

[Phileas Fogg]

(can you tell me what aircraft cannot use a 2744m runway)

Bundanoon,

Just read back in the thread, planned on still air, St. Mawgan's runway isn't long enough for a DC8-62 at MTOW and probably other types of DC8 that shall remain flying for years to come.

[GROUNDHOG]

Bundanoon. Slightly confused by your last paragraph, could you elucidate please? Do you know something regarding the relationship between Newquay Airport Ltd and Cornwall Council and its officers that you can share with us? I am sure from your comment you must have studied the master plan and recently published report regarding the airport handover and if so your opinion of it may add value to this forum.

Dash 7 Lover - I haven't done the research but share your feeling that Newquay would probably make an excellent refuelling point for exec jets with the right infrastructure in place. Re the cargo hub logic dictates that any contribution is a good contribution but I just cannot see how in a business model the idea can be viable. The point I have made though again and again is that Newquay needs something much more sustainable on site and that will not come solely from aircraft movements no matter what they are carrying?

[RSOL]

PH

How long ago was it that you struggled to take off in a DC-8 at MTOW at PIK?
It's true that the runway at NQY is only 2745mtrs. But before the MOD pulled out (1st DEC08), the runway length was approximatly 600mtrs longer, making more than capable (according to wikipedia) of accomodating a 747-400 at MTOW.
I seem to remember on more than 1 occasion, an Antonov 124 landing at St Mawgan and that never struggled to take off with a belly full.
The runway had to be redesignated to accommodate the new ILS system that was needed to gain a civil licence. The approx 600mtrs hasn't disappeared either. Its still used as a roll on, for runway 30 and a roll off for runway 12. So there is still approximatly 3300mtrs of tarmac to use should there be a need for it, Making it more than capable of handling nearly anything flying today, as i stated several posts ago.
So i'm sure, MR Fogg, that you and your precious DC8-62, would of been able to use St Mawgan's runway if you had had the correct information regarding this airfield at the time.

[Phileas Fogg]

RSOL,

The officiallength of St. Mawgan's runway is 9006', this is the usable length available for 'legal' purposes.

Size of the aircraft is irrelevant, I previously worked with the AN124's and it is known that they have a good field performance for their size.

I don't have the performance figures for every type of aircraft, the DC8 was merely an example, I would guess that the 747-400 would be OK but what about 747-200/300? I don't have these figures, perhaps they may be OK but then perhaps not, but there are other 'heavy' aircraft cargo types out there, of lesser performances that more modern aircraft, but St Mawgan's published runway length of 9006' is not capable of handling any aircraft type flying today which is what you stated before, more recently, changing your previous statement to include the word "nearly" which hasn't gone unoticed!

St. Mawgan has perhaps the largest surface area of any runway in the UK today, taking in to consideration it's width, and the chances of anything heavy, on a regular basis, using it are pipe dreams! There's little of a catchment area and with less than ideal road connections from/to the Cornish peninsula particularly during the summers.

And I was working for the NQY airport operator (lease holder) as far back as the days when an HP7 aircraft operated the LHR route.

[Bearface]

Can anyone shed any light on what is happening with FR at NQY? Went to book a flight today for October from STN but the Ryanair website is only selling up to 30/09...has it been pulled? And I can't seem to find any confirmation of this on other sites :confused:

[WOWBOY]

Hey

Ryanair are pulling there STN-NQY route from 30 September. From what i gather it is one of the stansted routes being pulled for the winter. Also they are not happy with the Airport Development Fee being increased. NQY-ALC will also cease, however that ends on 30 October.

Ryanair will not have a presence in Newquay going into November


WOWBOY

[Bearface]

Thanks for clarifying, WOWBOY.

I was aware that Ryanair have had historical issues with the Airport Management so it comes as no real surprise. Good news for the likes of Flybe and ASW though.

Any news as to whether another carrier is going to fill the gap left by Ryanair leaving?

[cornishsimon]

Bearface
Nothing has so far been announced as a replacement for the NQY-STN service by other carriers, however it wouldnt surprise me to see the likes of Air Southwest step up to the make in the long run.

Keep in mind that we arent all that short of the birthday of WOW, perhaps they might take that chance to announce something on fleet and schedules ?

[WOWBOY]

What date is the exact day for WOW's Birthday. Isnt it 6 years?

[Bearface]

I'm pretty sure that the WOW service began on 26 October 2003, so I imagine that is what Cornish Simon is referring to.

[cornishsimon]

Thats exactly what im referring too !

birthday will be on the 26th Oct 09 so i wouldnt put it past them to make a big deal of the birthday and to make the odd announcement

[rogervisual]

Don't hold your breath guys, its about surviving these difficult times ,not expansion right now.;)

[tommyc2005]

NQYGuy - I think you are missing a very big trick in your post. It isn't all about convenience of central London - the LCY route offers that and hopefully it will last. BUT.....The withdrawal of FR from STN leaves a vast area with a sizeable population without a link to Cornwall. For much of Essex, Herts, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and possibly some of Bedfordshire and Norfolk, getting to LGW time-wise to fly to Newquay makes no sense whatsoever, and that is before the cost of trains/driving/parking. LCY is only a suitable option for some of these people who have direct rail links to Stratford, but you are relying heavily on the trains which are very unpredictable in these parts (strikes, constant weekend maintainance).

There is definately a market for an off-peak service to STN from ASW that would cater to leisure travellers in the East prepared to pay that bit more than FR charge for the convenience. Especially as the timings of FR's flights this year have been dreadful - too early most days! Possibly even a once or twice a week service to Norwich would work too. Whether that would happen or not is another matter, but they are feasible. I would also say a single daily LTN flight by BE would also be feasible.

[Bearface]

tommyc2005

If my memory serves me correctly, I am fairly sure that Aer Arann started a LTN-NQY service a year or two back. I think it lasted a matter of weeks...

[tommyc2005]

You are right Bearface and I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I'm pretty sure that service was announced very late and was only scheduled to operate for a few weeks at the peak season, July and August or something. Also wasn't that around when they had or intended to have a LTN based aircraft, with the announced and not operated Liege flights?

[Bearface]

tommyc2005

Yes, the Aer Arann was a bit of a strange one in that didn't have much of a natural fit with their operations to/from the West of Ireland.

In addition, I don't think the PR and marketing around LTN-NQY was the best - at least not in the South East anyway.

[WOWBOY]

Aer Arann's NQY-LTN service from what i remember was launched on 3rd July 2006. It operated on Monday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday only. In March 2006 they annouced a NQY-ORK service which i dont thing materilased.

WOWBOY

[virginblue]

I have a somewhat unusual request - I am wondering how difficult it is to get on a Skybus flight to the Scillies for their reduced last minute day-trip fare. I am thinking about taking a fun flight in mid-/late September and would need just a single seat, not necessarily on the first flight in and the last one out (which probably are the most heavily booked flights). It is a 25% saving on the regular fare, hence my asking. Maybe some of you local guys have some experience with those last minute fares as I don't have an idea how much demand for those flights is during certain periods of the year.

[NorthSouth]

Might be an idea to ask Skybus
NS

[virginblue]

I have some doubts that they will recommend not to book their more expensive advance fare, hence my asking here..... ;)

[GROUNDHOG]

Just a suggestion I haven't checked but it might be cheaper to fly from Lands End? Also go on line and check the West Briton newspaper as sometimes they have special vouchers for cheap flights. Failing that jump on the ferry???

[srobarts]

Get yourself down to Penzance and fly on the helicopter. I have made several trips to Tresco on BIH and the views are quite incredible. Big picture windows to appreciate it all!

[GK430]

Congrats to Newquay and WestonAir on promoting the forthcoming G.A. long weekend at the end of May offering some most reasonable rates and 'cream teas'.

Let's hope the weather holds up.

(see the airport www. for details)

[4eyed spotter]

Spotted B757 over flying Plymouth at 1330hrs today at approx 4000ft heading east. Was this a charter from Newquay?

[cornishsimon]

there was also what looked like a Flybe emb195 knocking around doing circuits i think

[4eyed spotter]

Cheers for that. think i need to replace this old strengthners with new ones:8

[yeo valley]

there was i 757 arrived in brs from newquay empty. it did a charter from brs to mir.

[bravoromeosierra]

Lufthansa are back for more fun in sunny Cornwall next year. Current schedules see the service running as B735.

[PlymSpotter]

Combination of a Euowings CRJ-900 at either ends of the season and a B737-500 for the peak season.

[cornishsimon]

anything else new at NQY ?
i see SZ are going to NCL via CWL now and that baby are back for next year starting in Feb on the MAN route which would seem to be an early start compared to other years

hopefully now that the economy is starting to pick up NQY might start seeing some more routes! the 735 from LH is a good add for some saturdays during summer 11, such a shame they couldnt operate the 735 on Saturdays and the CRJ on say Wednesdays to make it a twice weekly service!

cs

[devonish]

will the cornwall council budget cuts effect newquay airport, as they are the owners ?. ive heard they are overstaffed and losing money

[GROUNDHOG]

Would be very surprised if the airport was not still losing money. A crumb of good news is that BIH are moving the maintenance base of its helicopters to NQY creating twenty jobs. Exactly the type of ancillary business the airport needs to attract. I stand to be corrected though but weren't these jobs from the closing Penzance base, in which case a great case of Council spin!

[tregeseal]

BBC News - Skilled engineering jobs created at Newquay Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-11905176) try this link.
These jobs are becuase Plymouth is knocking down their hangar for housing development and relocating to Newquay, BIH also maintain ASW a/c so watch this space. I truly believe the BIH Penzance/Scillies route will also follow now that Lands End is no longer an option. Makes sense to centralize all of Cornwalls domestic traffic.:ok:

[Rubber Duck]

GH, they are new jobs as BIH are relocating maintenance from Devon!