Merger with SAS

[High]

Hi!
I am a captain with Braathens in Norway. Now that SAS has bought our company there are many of us who are afraid of ending up at the bottom of the pecking order. For that reason some are looking for jobs abroad. One candidate employer is Ryanair. But what is it REALLY like working for Ryan? We would like to hear from some of you on the inside! Pros and cons. How's the pay? The rotation? Conditions otherwise?
Lokking forward to reading your replies!

[Scandinavian]

Hvis du kan oprette din profil med en email adresse, så skal jeg kontakte dig snarest, med al den information du kan ønske om Ryanair.

[Nite_Flite]

Hi High...(couldn't resist)

Unless you really want to go abroad I wouldn't worry about staying. SAS learned a lesson 10 years ago with the stacking of swedish pilots from Linjeflygg into the SAS senoritylist. What I think, and hope, is that Braatens will remain an independant airline, like Air Botnia, operating it own route network.

Wish all the best for you.

[Laminar]

I´m sure that would be the worst scenario for SAS-pilots and Braathens dito in particular.
There is a trend among european national carriers to aquire smaller companies and letting them operate on their routes right now and the reason for that is of course a lack of capacity and a way to dominate the market. The goal could also be to cut costs since the salaries of these companies are in general lower.
SAS employees could in fact be deprived of an expansion of their own company in favour of Braathens since operating costs are lower.
Braathens employees on the other hand would always be in danger of loosing their jobs would the current economic boom turn in to a slump. The first to go in times like that would be the company with the weakest pilotsunion.
Is this really what SAS-pilots want or is it really that impossible to comply with IFALPA recommendations regarding mergers or aquisitions?

[PropsAreForBoats]

Laminar,

SAS is in its largest expansion ever; 50% in 5 years. The aircraft have been ordered, and about the only thing that can stop the expansion plans is pilot shortage.
Today SAS has difficulties providing enough aircraft for its own production; thus a cooperation with Braathens is only welcome.
As for costs, pilot salaries in Braathens are roughly 90% of SAS salaries, and they operate B737s. So i doubt that the difference in operating costs are large.
As for the economic slump scenario:
If the companies are merged, people will be fired from the bottom of the list, so the result for former Braathens pilots will depend on how the unions decide to merge the seniority lists.
It must also be remembered that Braathens only chance of survival right now is to be bought, and SAS is so far the only interested buyer.

------------------
"what's it doing now...?"

[Ramrise]

TCAS CLIMB,

Absolutely right, this is not a merger. Neither was the scandal 8 years ago a merger. I seem to remember that SAS bought Linjeflyg and still treated the situation like a merger.

Regards,

Ramrise

[Yeager]

Ramrise,

You are right. Linjeflyg was bought and to some extend the situation was treated like a merger. I do think however that the Unions did learn a thing or two from that experience.
Learn from the history - don´t make the same mistake twice.

[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 11 June 2001).]

[High]

Merger or no merger.

As of now the official plan is to let us (Braathens) continue as an independant company. It is common belief this is only to satisfy the politicians. In due time a merger is inevitable. Why should SAS keep paying two separate organizations who fly the same routes and the same type of aircraft? A lot of functions would be operating in paralell. No doubt there is money to be saved.
As for the comparison with Air Botnia, it is my impression that the AB pilots are underpaid and overworked. Which is not the case with Braathens (we're paid about 90% of SAS). So I believe there is little to be saved in that area by keeping the companies separate.
The discussion is fairly heated in both companies these days regarding seniority lists. From our point of view it seems our fellow pilots in SAS want our planes and our 175+ commander positions, but not the commanders. Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment. This is why many of us have started looking for other possible emloyers.

[Juliet November]

It will most likely be prudent to anticipate that SAS will merge the activities of Braathens some time down the line. First will probably be admin (Marketing, Finance, Human Resources etc) followed by handling, engineering and then finally the aircraft and crew. With the shortage of engineers in particular and experienced flight crew in general, redundancies in those departments are probably limited, whereas quite a few BU admin and front-line staff may find themselves being made redundant. It is foolhearted to belive that SAS will not harvest the benefits of their purchase, chief amongst which is the elimination of double functions.

And the ensuing battle between SK and BU staff will probably not be a pretty sight. As long as airlines insist on basing their advancement policy for pilots on seniority rather than performance, merging two airline crews into one is bound to create havoc. And who will win that battle then, the SAS or Braathens fraction of pilots ?

[frequentboeingflyer]

One problem with the merger is that BU requires so much experince that most newhired pilots are between 30 and 40 years old, while SAS pilots might be 23 years old.

[Nick Figaretto]

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif Age???

We're talking possible seniority loss and downgrading from FC to FP for lots of pilots here, and you're talking about age???

When SAS and Linjeflyg merged, all the LIN pilots lost 3 years seniority. When SAS and SAS Commuter unions finally agreed upon a combined seniority list for the pilots, the SC pilots lost up to 8 years seniority.

All SAS pilots agree not to repeat the sad story of the SAS/LIN "merge". The question is just how.

Some will say the answer is a merge with full seniority, and some say the only logical solution is putting the BRA pilots at the bottom of the list.

While others would rather shut their eyes and hope things will remain as it has always been. -No offence, Nite_Flite, but in a longer perspective I just don't see two separate companies as realistic.

If your concern FBF, is ending up as an FP for a younger FC, it has worked perfectly well for many years in SAS. Age is really not the issue here. Many SAS pilots are above 23 years old... :)

Nick. (27 1/2 :))

----------------------------------------
I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantities can produce all the effects of drunkenness.

Oscar Wilde



[This message has been edited by Nick Figaretto (edited 12 June 2001).]

[Geitost]

I am another Braathens pilot.
After reading this thread, I`ve got to pop the question as vell.
Is Ryanair a good place to be guys??


Best regards.
"Concerned about the future."

[Hung start]

Hold on guys, don´t bail out just yet. The more you are needed, the better deal you might get. Who said that BU colleagues are going to end up in bottom of a combined seniority list, or for that matter, who said that the two lists ever will be merged. Thats for unions to find out, not SAS and BU management.

[Nite_Flite]

Finally a great thread on the Scandinavian Forum...

Now, I never compared Air Botnia and Braatens in terms of quality nor salary. However I still think they will be appendices to SAS, and the last thing they should hope for is a "merger" of seniorty lists. They will end in the wrong end.

Nick, PLEASE explain to me just HOW you figure SAS Commuter LOST 8 years seniorty. Lets not confuse the issue. SC pilots have never had any RIGHT to a place on the list.
Through negociation a DEAL was made, which works great for both companies. Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?
I am sure you ment that the SC guy is 8 years behind another who guy who started in SAS simultaneously. Maybe they both applied to SAS but only one passed. They other (maybe you, but I doubt it) applied to his 2 choise SC and got it, never expecting a job in Airline.

If my memory serves me right - yes I was employed at the time - LIN pilots lost 5 years seniorty, as compared if their company hadn't folded. Also here the same goes. They had no RIGHT to the senority slots they got. What they got was lucky, very lucky. Lucky that Wahlenberg talked their case. Some, not many actually moved from left seat LIN to left seat SAS. Not bad. I think it usually takes 10 years.

I'm not hostile towards any of these companies, just wanted to call it as I see it.

If I was in braatens I wouldn't worry to much, but good airmanship would be to plan ahead and file an application with Ryan, BA, Korean and Emirates. All airlies who are accepting resumes.

OK....take a swing *GG*

[Hung start]

What a good post Nite_Flite, agree with everything you say, except that I don´t think that the time has yet come, for BU pilots to send out applications. They might just as well be flying along in the same jobs, in the same airplanes etc.etc., just with a new owner..after/if this deal goes through..!!

We are the ones talking mergers of companies and seniority lists now. Management have repeatdly said, that the want BU to fly on, in their own colours. Yes, a lot of parallel operations on the ground could be cut away, but hardly the pilots. And there´s no economical reasons, for SAS management to want to "merge pilots" as that would only make BU´s pilots paychecks bigger!!

Edited to add: I see now, that you say; BU pilots should not worry too much, but of course, planning for all possibilities is never a bad idea.

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 12 June 2001).]

[Unable]

Nite_Flite; I could not agree more!

[KADS]

Nite_flite
Your posting hits the spot right on!

[Nite_Flite]

:) Thanks guyes.

Who can tell me what is going on at Malmö Aviation? Are they also joining up forces with us?

[Nick Figaretto]

Uuuups! Gotta be a little bit more precise in my posts!

The issue here was not what kind of seniority an SC pilot will have in SAS, compared to a pilot who has been in SAS all the time. The issue is the seniority compared to a BRA pilot.

Quote: "Through negociation a DEAL was made..."
-Yes, you are right, and that deal is, for all practical purposes, a merge of the seniority lists.

Maybe my last post gets clearer if I don't use the word "lose":

Through the combilist, SC pilots have up to 8 years "SC seniority" that are not valid in SAS. Therefore it is likely that it would be hard for them to accept it if the BRA pilots take with them all their "BRA seniority" to SAS.

We have a similar situation with the LIN pilots. They will probably also demand to get their 5 years seniority "back," if BRA pilots take all theirs with them. (I thought it was three years, but I stand corrected.)

The reason why I took up that issue, is that it is my impression that BRA pilots should not have too high hopes of getting all their seniority with them IF a merge with SAS happens somewhere down the line. I think Nite_Flite's post also indicates that...?

Quote: "...which works great for both companies." :)
-See the topic "Vi vil ha mere penger..." in Scandinavian Forum. ;)

Quote: "Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?"
-I would imagine a BRA FC who has worked for BRA for 30 years, being an FC for the last 20 or so, would consider a place in the left seat of a B737 as "his in the first place".

If I understand you guys correctly, wat you are saying is that if he loses his position, he should blame the BRA management for leaving the company "up sh*t creek without a paddle", and not the SAS pilot unions.

...And then I kind of see your point.

And me? Being WAAAAAYYYYYY down on the seniority lists, I'm not the one most affected by this. To me a merge will be 33 new 737s, and about 400 new pilot positions. But I can see that it is much more to the story than just numbers.

And as High states it: Quote: "Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment."

Nick

------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Nick Figaretto]

High:

If you want more info on Ryanair, I think you might get a few more relevant answers if you post a new topic and call it "Info on Ryanair" or something like that.

That way Ryanair pilots see that it is a topic addressed to them. :)

Nick.

[High]

Thanks for the replies guys! Allthough this thread has gone off in a direction not intended by me it's still interesting (but pherhaps not productive). I was originally seeking information about possible employers, but the seniority discussion is an interesting one, even if the chances of agreeing is minimal.

Having said that, I can't help but add a few more points myself. Comparing this situation to the hiring of SC pilots by the mother company is irrelevant. In the BU/SAS case we're talking about adding 33 planes and 380 pilot positions to SAS, not just hiring pilots. I get the impression the planes and the jobs are welcome, but the pilots that go with it are trouble. Why should the 175+ captains of BU not get to stay in the seats they're already in? After all, if this goes through, we're talking about expanding SAS by 15% - planes and pilots. Which means the promotion rate of current SAS FO's will not slow down.

As for the possibilities of maintaining an independant Braathens, I don't think this will happen. The 10% savings on salaries is far outweighed by the savings possible if merged. Just the flexibility of having ALL 737 pilots being able to fly ALL the 737's is significant. Not to mention the benefit of not having to maintain two separate training organizations.

But sadly, reading some of the replies, my fears seem real. The two groups of pilots in question may have trouble finding ways of a peacful coexistance. SAS has sworn time and time again not repeat the Linjeflyg "battle", but judging from the attitude reflected in some replies, that's exactly what is happening.

So speaking for myself, I'd rather fly out of Dublin or London than going to work in Oslo having to bring along a baseball bat.

[Unable]

Counting the number of planes and pilots in SC, you will find that they are about the same size as BU. The comparison you mention is, in my opinion, highly relevant.

[High]

Unable

Not disputing the numbers. But when a pilot leaves SC to join SAS he doesn't bring any jobs into his new company - just a new pilot. Hence not creating any new captain postitions for his new colleagues to upgrade into.
For that reson the situations can't be compared.

[Unable]

OK. I get your point, High.

A merger of the seniority lists will create unhappy pilots, no matter how it's done. And as much as I sympathize with the BU-pilots, I can tell that a SC-captain employed in '89 will go totally crazy if he gets bypassed at the list by a BU-pilot employed in, say, '95.

Could the following be a possible compromise for both "sides"? :
1. BU-pilots are added at the bottom of the seniority list.
2. BU-captains keep the left seat
3. BU-pilots enter the SAS-payscale with their original BU-seniority, thus getting a slightly higher pay.

[Nite_Flite]

Great postings, all of them.

My cardinal thought here is that BU will live in peacefull coexcistance with was, that is if you are a pilot. Obviously the ground crew are more at risk.

Nick - I wrote my mail looking at the SAS/SC angle, with respect to the way you read my pasus on " great deal for both companies..".
SC gets a lot of unexperienced FO's, who will get some experience under their belts before going to Airline. So the advantage for airline is that they get pilots already well into SAS procedures. The advantage for SC is a flow of pilots keeping salaries down (hmm and training costs up..).

We will not see BU FC's dumped in the right seat on SAS aircraft. Unless there would be some bidding deal. i.e. to fly A340 voluntarily.

The LIN/SAS issue is not really an issue anymore. Nobody speaks about it anymore and we don't know who´s who.

Personally I got shafted on that deal and lost 230 slots on the list, but thats life,
it makes no difference complaining about it.

HIGH - in response to wil statement "why shouldn't the BU FC's stay in their seats. By all means, do stay. But when it comes to puting you on the bottom of the SAS FC list,
I would strongly object to. If the market stalls it could delay my upgrade, and without a doubt destroy a lot of senior FC's chances for a longhaul command.

Be safe out there..

[This message has been edited by Nite_Flite (edited 14 June 2001).]

[Flathatter]

Nick Fig and High, I agree with you.

If they start merging eniority lists again, they´ll pee off a lot of people again. No way around it. Judging from the past they have a hard time learning from their own mistakes. One thing you can bet on: The guys doing the merging will make sure they themselves don´t get hosed. Too bad about the other guys.

[Laminar]

Why is it so important for some of you guys to point out "it is not a merger it´s a takeover"? That is a fact but what does it have to do with senioritylists? It is truly irrelevant! What the SAS board of directors have decided on gives no right to the employees to disregard common sense, decency or labour law-jobsecurity. I smell greed, protectionism and illfounded fear of competition over jobs in some of the postings. There are recommendations given by IFALPA concerning situations like this and it would be an appropriate time for the SAS-unions to adhere to them and make up for all the greedy bad in the past.
I´m also asking myself who would lose on a mixing of lists at this time? I think nobody, but perhaps some overpompous FC:s pride.
And why is it so clear that bu will be an appendix to sk? Explain that please!

[malteblaxhed]

I have a dream.
My dream will never come true ; but you can't stop me from dreaming.
In my recurrent dream SAS is bought by a company called X Airlines. The pilots in X Airlines are not happy at all. They summon the most intelligent pilots among their ranks and the ones known for their skills in logical thinking to a meeting. It does not take long for these good men (and women) to reach their verdict.
# SAS is bought by X Airlines and therefore we, as EMPLOYEES can deal with the scandi-pilots the way we feel fit.
At first all the Vikings were a bit upset but it didn't take long for them to come to their senses (Vikings also being known for their abilities in logical thinking) and they all happily accepted the deal proposed (imposed) by their new "colleagues".
(Apologies for all misspellings)
Best regards all BU-pilots
Malte Blaxhed

[Nick Figaretto]

Good one! :)

But I guess, to most SAS employees, the difference between your story and the SAS/BRA story is that BRA is on a steady course towards the abyss, facing severe cuts or certain bancruptcy if SAS doesn't buy it. Hence the vikings are the "saviours" this time.

Actually, the SAS pilots' unions are officially against the takeover, one of the reasons being the very issue we are discussing in this topic.

Nick.

------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Hung start]

Laminar and Malte,

You guys are already trying to stirr up, and complain about some things....and complain about your, maybe, future colleagues.....before anyone knows anything about whats going to happen.

Funny how some already are attacking pilots at SAS, for saying the exact same thing, as the management has said.

You are on the attack here. Nobody is trying to "impose" anything on you here. But if you feel that your seniority at BU should follow you into SAS, you can´t blame SAS pilots for trying to protect their seniority... Please read Nite_Flites last post again.
Let me turn the question around. Why is it so important for you guys to merge lists???

To High, very sensible posts. You sound like a guy, that I would be proud to be a colleague of. I hope that you won´t feel the need to go elsewhere.

In my humble opinion, BU captains should stay in the left seat on 737, if lists are merged. They bring jobs, airplanes and loyal pax and staff. BU will be a great asset to SAS.

[Nick Figaretto]

Ave¸ Hung¸ morituri te salutamus. :)

Nick.

[malteblaxhed]

Just to clarify :
I'm not a Braathens pilot. My only reason for posting at all is that I feel sorry for my fellow aviators when I see what's coming to them.
Malte Blaxhed

[Hung start]

Well Malte,

You sign off with : "Regards all BU pilots".
For most people, that means that you are speaking on behalf of most BU pilots. Then again, I think not.
But if that dream of yours is a good dream that unfortunately never will come true, then how in the world can you blame SAS pilots for dreaming the opposite, in trying to protect their place on the list.

Not saying that that is my dream though.

So far on this thread, the only people here that have actually come forward with opinions and suggestions on how to solve a possible merger of lists, are SAS folks. Most other posts, have just had the goal of blaming SAS pilots for perceived protectionism.

Please, Malte and Laminar, answer my question: What would you do? How would you merge the lists, to everybody (or most peoples) satisfaction. Suggestions please. Constructive posts please. Everything else only turns into a mud slinging match.
Now you´ve seen some suggestions from SAS pilots. We´d like to see yours.

[Nite_Flite]

Well said Hung Start. Lets just wait and see just what lies in store for our colleagues at BU.

Malte - I would not be one of those pilots in your dream. I'm not smart enough! I've real your post several times, and I still don't get it. You want SAS taken over by Airline X, and the X pilots being the good guyes (as opposed to us SAS pilots) would integrate us on equal terms. So what's the big deal here? Has SAS ever been in Airline X's place? I think not.

Let have "is i maven" as our northern cousins say, and let the future show.

[malteblaxhed]

Hung start,
You are absolutely correct when you assume that I'm not speaking on behalf of the BU pilots ; I have no connection whatsoever with Braathens.
Believe me, I know these issues are very complicated indeed. What I would do, if I was involved, is to try and convince the SAS pilots that this is not only a problem, but more importantly a great OPPORTUNITY.
You have a golden chanse to show the aviation industry that it CAN be done, and by doing so earn the highest respect of colleagues all around the world. That kind of respect is, in my book, worth a LOT more than any number, up or down, on the seniority list.
As I see it, the key issue is that whatever agreement is made is reached by fair negotiation between the pilot groups. This may seem obvious to most of us, but judging from history not everyone agree.
The union representatives ON BOTH SIDES must be able to face their members and stand up for whatever deal is made.
A solution that is imposed onesidedly is destined to be a failiure.
If you succeed, you will set an example for future takeovers/mergers all around the world.
People will say : Let's use the SAS-BRA deal as a starting piont for these negotiations. Those guys had success where everyone else failed... They must truly be the best.
Malte

[Hung start]

Malteblaxed,

Well then we agree fully. I too would like to see a deal that all will be happy with. And I mean all. Should I lose some places on a list I wouldn´t mind at all, if it could mean that I could continue to enjoy spending my time at work with good colleagues, new or old.
So I choose to forget about your dream then... :) :)

[heavydane]

It is not a merger, snap out of it!

It is buy or bust, You chose bottom of the SAS list or no list at all.
And HIGH You dont have to bring a bat, just get in the right seat with Your one stripe and enjoy life.

" never Linjefly again"

Heavydane

[Geitost]

Fatdane? (from Swe???)

Looking at your profile, looks like we would need something more solid than a "bat" sitting next to you? Left or right side!!

No thanks my, cv is off.




[This message has been edited by Geitost (edited 19 June 2001).]

[Nite_Flite]

HeavyDane - Agree, never a LIN solution again. Nobody who were involved walked away happy. You and I know that because we were there. Malte, thats another case, you are not BU you are not SAS. Just what kind of cat are you? You want to offer a solution to a problem that is not yet a problem, yet you are not employed on either side, and therefore not at risk. I'm sorry, :) but that doesn't count much in my book.

[malteblaxhed]

Nite_Flite
After reading Heavydanes post I decided not to participate in this any longer, but since you address me personaly, I will of course reply.
You ask why I want to offer a solution to a problem which does not affect me personaly.
The simple answer is that I was asked to by Hung start in one of his previous posts.
Secondly you want to know what "cat" ? I am.
As you probably already guessed I'm an ex LIN pilot who bailed out from SAS shortly after the SAS-LIN deal.
Today I'm happier than ever that I did.
Best regards all BU & SAS pilots except Heavydane

ps. and Nite_Flite I'm sorry if I don't count in your book ; you shurely count in mine.
[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by malteblaxhed (edited 19 June 2001).]

[Hung start]

So far, nobody has answered my question: How would you do it??. What would be a fair solution to a possible merger of lists, should someone decide to merge them. Malte, you said you were gonna do it, but didn´t. You´re only asking SAS folks to be sensible, but offering no concrete possible solutions.

From BU pilots and Malte, I only hear that " SAS pilots should be sensible and not greedy."
What does that mean?? Does it imply, that SAS pilots should just accept BU pilots bringing all of their seniority into SAS???
And just fiddle BU Captains and FO´s in on SAS seniority list? And seeing good folks like Nite_Flite get another 200 numbers kick away from an upgrade??

Answers and suggestions please!!

Mind you, I´m not advocating for "heavydanes" opinions. I find them embarresing. Going down your path heavydane, you´d have LIN times 10, with some mightily p***** of, demoted BU pilots.
Stick to our pay demands negotiations, that´s where we need somebody like you. NOT in dealing with (maybe) future colleagues....!

I stand to be corrected and ridiculed, but I´m thinking along Nite_Flites lines;

BU Captains stay in the left seat on 737. Period. ( Heavydane, we are talking people who, like you, have worked hard for years to get to where they are. With wifes and kids to take care of. With bills to pay.)

BU copilots stay in right seat of 737.

All get placed in bottom of the "kombi-list". (hard hat deployed). But here you have a lot of SC/SAS pilots that would be mightily pissed off, if anything else was to happen.

All BU pilots go in on the SAS pay scheme with the amount of years that they put into Braathens.
A 20 year Capt wit BU goes onto Year 20 on the SAS FC pay scheme.
A 2 year BU FO goes in on year 2 in SAS FO pay scheme.
This way, all BU pilots would see a payrise.

BU pilots wishing to switch A/C type, can do so, like everybody else in SAS. i.e according to seniority.( yes, it will take a while, but at BU there were no other types).

Pension, well thats a killer. That´s for smarter people than I to figure out. But let me add, that as of today, old SC pilots find it very expensive in loss of pension to switch to SAS.

What say you BU pilots. Am I waaaayy off the mark??

If nothing else, I´m glad to tell you that we are not all like heavydane! :) :)

[Hung start]

As an answer to "High"´s assertion earlier, that "current rate of promotion of SAS FO´s would not slow down", I disagree with High, and agree with Nite_Flites claim, that he would indeed have to wait longer:

SAS´s ambition is to grow 50% in 5 years. That is partly fulfilled with the acquisition of 22 A321. Now when another 33 Braathens 737´s are added to the fleet, we are getting very close to the advertised 50% expansion. At least in no. of aircraft.
If BU captains are placed in front of Nite_Flite on a merged list, with the expansion goal fulfilled, this would certainly slow down Nite_Flite´s (and many others) pace to a promotion, as compared to if SAS had not bought Braathens, and expanded inside of SAS.

So, bringing BU folks in on the list according to their date of hire in BU (as I can smell that you want), would be a pure winner for BU pilots, and a BIG looser for SAS pilots.
Is that what your drem is about Malte??

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 20 June 2001).]

[PropsAreForBoats]

If such a take-over will happen; are the pilot unions free to decide how this should be done with regards to pay seniority and pensions? Or does the company have a say in the matter too?


[This message has been edited by PropsAreForBoats (edited 20 June 2001).]

[Scando]

High,

I prey these words will hold true:

SAS' visekonsernsjef mener å ha et trøstens ord til dem som frykter at Braathens skal inkorporeres i SAS:

- Vi har ingen tanker om å integrere Braathens i SAS. Braathens skal forbli Braathens så langt vi kan skue inn i fremtiden. Braathens har et godt produktnavn som det vil være meningsløst å se bort fra, sier han.

To all of you non norwegian speaking people (both of you), the above quote is from the SAS boss saying there will be no merging between the two companies.

However, High, I do wonder where the ex Transwede, and not to forget, the Busy Bee pilots were put on your seniority list?

[High]

Thanks Scando.
But I fear those words were uttered to please polticians. As correctly stated by a Swedish minister: "Everything is politics in Norway".

[High]

Oh yes Scando.
About the BB and Transwede pilots. Not really a similar situation, but I'm not at all proud of how they were treated, not at all.

[Nick Figaretto]

I must, once again, express my respect towards Hung and his "reasonable reasoning." I think there should be room for a little bit of "broad-mindedness" in this matter.

Scando: I have also registered what the CEO/SAS management has said, but there is a catch to it: <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Braathens skal forbli Braathens så langt vi kan skue inn i fremtiden.</font>
In english (My own translation): <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Braathens shall continue to be Braathens as far as we can look into the future.</font>

How far can the SAS management look into the future? :rolleyes: SAS have guaranteed for the BRA employees for two years. I think after two or three years, Braathens' future as a separate company will be much more uncertain.

Heavydane: Seeing posts like yours always make me wonder if the originator uses the same kind of uncompromising judgement in other aspects of life. How's the CRM of a guy like this? How does he bring up his kids? What's his view on people from other cultures? Does he always walk around with water-combed hair wearing a brown shirt and a bandolier?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">"Never Linjeflyg again"</font> Nice slogan. I think most SAS pilots will agree with you on that, Including myself. As I see it, the biggest problem with the Linjeflyg-affair was the unpleasant working environment that resulted from it.

The question is therefore: How do we avoid that in this case?

Your solution will most certainly destroy not just the working environment for BRA pilots, but the whole working environment for all pilots in our beloved company.

I don't know about you guys, but I look forward to every day at work. Which is mostly due to the motivated and inspiring colleagues I meet every day. I would gladly sacrifice a few places on the list to keep it that way. And I am cinvinced that the BRA pilots are just as motivated and inspiring as the SAS pilots are.

In my view, the size of the paycheck is slightly subordinated compared to the joy (or absence of joy) of going to work.

The "Hung-model" (or a similar one) should by far take care of this. And then it is just up to the BRA pilots if they want to "play the game" or not.

Just a tiny amount of sound judgement, and ability to see things from the other side, would be for the better for all of us!

Nick.

------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Flap Sup]

Hung,

22 321 for SAS? The original order was for 12 plus 10 options. Have the options been confirmed?
rgds FS

[Nite_Flite]

Malye - I ment no disrespect to you persoally in my post...If percieved this way I'm appoligize.

Lets face it...Its a situation with a lot of feelings and opinions.

[Nite_Flite]

Malte - I ment no disrespect towards you personally in my post. If percieved this way I appologize.

Guyes, lets acknowledge it a situation with many solutions and feelings involved :)
My opinion is no more worth that a BU FO, but I will ofcause resist loosing slots on the list if they should merge. I'm too old to be shafted again.
Where did you go after LIN, malte?

[malteblaxhed]

Nite_Flite

No worries ; Absolutely no offense taken !

Malte

[Flathatter]

Ahem. From an SAS jocks p.o.v. wouldn´t it be an advantage to get the BU guys incorporated into the list/company? Otherwise they´d just be yet another low(er) cost airline siphoning off business from mainline like Air Botnia, Skyways, Cimber, Maersk, etc.

[KADS]

Hmmm, Tcas climb has a point. I never saw anyone calling Braathens take over of Transswede and later Malmö Aviation, a "merger". We flew around on BU numbers calling ourselves 'Braathens Sverige' and 'Braathens Malmö Aviation' with operational control in Norway, and nowhere were BU pilots with open arms welcoming us to the company AND seniority list. Even after Braathens ruined it all and made sure that over 70 pilots were fired(myself included), we still had to do an interview with Braathens 'Mainline' and their union rep:s, should we want to go there. A few tried that option but far from everyone was accepted. What made ex-Malmö and ex-Transwede pilots not worthy direct access to Braathens and what makes BU pilots worthy (in that case) direct entry to SAS?
I see no BU pilots urging for an interview now to go to SAS, only talk of seniority. It is very EASY when you are on the other side of the fence......
I'm NOT saying that is how things should be, all I'm saying is: how do BU pilots JUSTIFY it compared to the Malmö Aviation situation???

[heavydane]

As I see it Hung`s suggestion could have some merrit, it might though create some problems in the FC department because that was the expansion.

Nick: no brown shirt here at least not on my own time! The problem as I see it, is no matter how You slice it, a lot of guys will feel screwed(again!!). Linjefly got a very sweet deal and still the working enviroment went sour.
That`s why: never Linjefly again.

Heavydane

[Laminar]

Scando, the owners of SAS want to make as much money as possible on their investment and how is that done? By keeping to separate administrations doing the same job? No of course not! A merger will happen, the only question is, when?

Hung-start, I´m not trying to stir up anything I´m simply interested in the opinions of other fellow pilots in this matter. It seems many of the replies are eager to point out that the deal is not a merger and thereby implying they would have the absolute right to treat the future collegues from Braathens any way they want. The same mentality was present at the time of the LIN-deal and was in my opninion one of the main reasons why it became so sour. It is very interesting and somewhat surprising to find the same attitude now!

Why is it important to merge lists? See my first reply!

The only way to merge lists as I see it (as well as IFALPA) is simply that everyone keeps their seniority. It is possible that some restrictions regarding bidding for base, type and so on would have to be introduced for a transitionperiod.

Swedish law is also supporting this. If a company has to lay off personnel it is their time employed that counts not their position on a "seniority list" that has taken into account who is buying who.

[Nick Figaretto]

Heavydane: For my "inner eye" you just changed! The shirt is off, your hair is fuzzy, your kids are running around screaming in the garden. You are "back" among my motivated, inspiring colleagues, who is worrying about what impact this BRA-deal will have on our working environment :).

I guess we all agree on the goal, then, but not quite by which means to reach it.

Laminar has an interesting point: You will always keep your "employment seniority" (oppsigelsessenioritet) no matter what kind of deal the unions make. The same applies to Norwegian work laws too, which, I believe, will be used if SAS buys BRA.

This brings us to PropsAreForBoats' question: Apart from the "employment seniority" (what's the english word???) the seniority lists (regulating bidding, FC upgrade, wages etc.) is considered the unions "property." In the LIN case the SAS management tossed the monkey into the unions' arms and said: "Merge the seniority lists." But just how was up to the unions. -In effect: The SAS unions.

I hope I got this all right, but correct me if I'm wrong, you guys who "were there." (...as if I have to ask for that! :))

Nick.

------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde

[Crewcut]

Going through all the postings I would like to add two comments:

First I find the discussion about a common senority list premature as we do not know the complete strategy behind SAS' buy of BRATHENS. We can only guess. I would think that the motivation behind the takeover, is to keep competitors away from a very lucrative norwegian market. Furthermore, I think that SAS would like to keep BRA under its own flag, thus keeping very loyal customers and maintaining (or pretending) a non monopaly role in the market.

Secondly, SAS has a tradition of investing heavily in other companies like Spanair, British Midland, Air Botnia etc. Its a simple business investment which you develope and perhaps sell for strategic reasons (like 20% stake in BM to Lufthansa for slot reasons). None of these companies are on the senority list and neither will BRA be. The market in Norway needs more than one major company and BRA are the perfect company to play the second role.
The benefits for SAS is to cut all mirroed
jobs ex. ground staff, sales & marketing, administration etc. All jobs to execute the flying will still be needed, so there is no need to worry - so far.

In my opinion, the BRA pilots should focus more on the oppotunities they are been giving by SAS, to develope BRA further into the future.

[Hung start]

heavydane, hats off..much better this time :)

Laminar,
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I smell greed, protectionism and illfounded fear of competition over jobs in some of the postings. There are recommendations given by IFALPA concerning situations like this and it would be an appropriate time for the SAS-unions to adhere to them and make up for all the greedy bad in the past.</font>

This was the one that I didn´t like. Again, why is it your "angle of attack", that solely the SAS pilots must show decency and fairness. It is darn easy for you to say, to guys like Nite_Flite and heavydane, who lost hundreds of places in the LIN deal, to just be "fair and not greedy", when they stand the risk of it all happening all over again.
I agree with heavydane; the LIN folks got a VERY sweet deal, and (some, not all) still don´t know to appreciate it.
You and I( together with most other SAS folks) obviously have major differences in how we view the LIN deal.
But hats off to you for a serious and constructive answer. Seriously. :)

Flap Sup, correct, but latest RUMOUR on base is, that the 10 options have been converted to orders..RUMOUR, I say!

Crewcut, In my opinion I believe that you are absolutely correct, and hope that the higher powers see things the same way.

[Hung start]

Laminar, one more thing.

If I imply that the deal is not a merger, it is not meant in a way that "we buy ´em, so we can screw ´em" Not at all. I meant to say, that SAS bosses have all said (so far) that they won´t merge the two companies. i.e. they´ll continue to fly seperately, and as such, there´s no reason to even discuss a merger of senioritylists.

[KADS]

Likewise interesting to see how BU pilots are avoiding mine too in the same fashion.....
It's easier to avoid akward situations than to confront them...... ;)

[Nite_Flite]

Let's give them a break. This thread started out with a commander in BU being worried at the prospect of a RHS in SAS. Undertanderbly.
I'm sure the guyes here didn't call the shots when Malmö Aviation were merged. It's a valid point though. But its human nature to look after yourself, and your referencegroup first. BU did it and we will do it. I don't recall who made the decision to stack LIN into the SAS minus 5 years, but I do know it won't happen again.

Just talked to a buddy af mine flying for Emirates. Two ex-Malmö Aviation guyes started a couple of months ago - one was chief pilot - guess the didn't like the BU hospitality either.

[KADS]

Maybe these guys did call the shots but you are probably right Nite_flite, they probably didn't (but do remember as a member of a union you are part responsible for its actions). That's beside my point. The point being that it is interesting to hear by the BU pilots own words how they justify their standpoint on the issue compared to how Malmö Av./Transwede was handled by themselves. Again NOT saying that IS how they should or will be treated just curious to their own opinions...

[Hung start]

Back to the top,

I´d like to know too. Don´t know what went on, but we might learn what NOT to do???
Also, I´ve/we´ve been called greedy and protectionists for something we haven´t done yet (or won´t do), so I´d still like to hear how BU pilots would like to see this done!

[TowerDog]

Tcas:

Same scenario as AA and TWA: The AA pilots keep saying: This is no merger, it is a take over and a rescue operation.
Therefore no "Date of Hire."
The AA boys says: We will be fair and square and give the TWA captains a left seat, but with a fence around it: If ya flew DC-9s with TWA, ya can not bid the 777 even if ya are on the AA list and could hold it based on original D.O.H.seniority.

The TWA folks on the other hand, want a "fair" deal and a proper number on the big list: "D.O.H."
They are howling over the AA pilots propsal the some 850 TWA captains keep their seat, but the remaining 1600 TWA pilots go to the bottom of the list, on the date after the signing. (March 9th meh thinks)

The good news is that all TWA pilots get pay seniority on AA's payscale as of next year.

Should make even the bottom TWA guy happy as he will get a healthy pay increase, and he will get paid more than AA pilots with higher AA seniority but with less "Pay" years under his belt.

Don't know if the above model would work in the SK/BU deal, but there is always something to be learned from people that have fought the same battle before you.

(Uh, by the way, the above is not agreed on yet, just proposals.)

------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[TowerDog]

Tcas:

No, I am not suggesting that you guys do it one way or the other, just wrote my piece to show how others are dealing with the same problems.

Is the SK and BU pilots members of the same union? Nordisk Flygerforbund or something?

------------------
Men, this is no drill...

[Laminar]

Yes, and I suppose this already have been discussed many times and will be in the near future. It will be very interesting to see how collegial the different groups will treat each other and what model will be decided on within the union.

TCAS, you are forgetting that there are others in the same situation as you but working at Braathens. What is the difference really between you and them?

And TCAS, yes the assets of a company are at the disposal of the owner, with some hard restrictions. But I cannot see how that would in any way authorize you as an employee to disregard common sense and decency unless, you are a shareholder and in that case your chance to influence decisions is at the annual shareholdersmeeting. I think you are confusing the collegial discussion with boardroomtalk.

[AUTO/MAN]

SAS is BUYING Braathens, NOT merging, which kind of answers Your last question Laminar.
The difference between SK & BU senioritylists is the fact, that the SK pilot-unions do not need, nor do they have to give any seniority to BU pilots on their kombi-list, IF they,(BU),are ever accepted on it! The fact that it is been brought up by BU pilots (not beeing the initial point on this topic though) seems a bit premature.
WELL CONNECTED WITH THE SAS and a SAS paint-scheme(with the Norwegian flag, being the flag-carrier)is probably the most likely solution for Braathens, even though operations are supposed to to match the SAS standards, closely supervised through auditions etc..
Bringing up "appendices" like Cimber Air, Air Botnia among others, it would be good to remember one thing. Of all the companies mentioned so far in previous postings, (kind of surprising that Air Baltic hasn´t been mentioned at all, being the cheapest to operate of all the companies SAS is a share-holder in) Air Botnia is the ONLY ONE owned by the SAS to 100%. The only way to tell the difference between SAS Finland and KF today is Flight Ops, the pilots and c/a´s being the ones effectively beeing kept outside the SAS organization = cheaper.

The fact that SAS (yes SAS) invested in 10 new a/c for the above mentioned company (5 brand new RJ85 & 5-7,so far 5, SB20) hardly means that KF is looked upon as an appendix by SAS,especially since the RJ contract is rumoured to be for four years only, after that look out for the new Dornier which is still on the production-line(read LH)!. Today KF is cheaper to operate than SC, but with a far better fleet, which should be a major concern especially to SC pilots, since SC is still regarded as an "appendix" and KF-pilots have a far worse (again cheaper) deal.
KF can provide the same services to SAS as SC but 25-35% cheaper, as soon as the KF pilot-union agrees to this (might take a while though...)-so far the SAS unions haven´t been bothered to comment or take stand...
For the SAS-unions BU aircraft might be welcome, but for BU pilots to demand a place on the kombi-list or expecting seniority based on what You had before the company was bought, would be naive. WHY, would any-one in SAS give BU pilots an advantage, when all that matters at the end of the day is your "bring home pay", and what you bring home, not to mention your advancement options(ie long-haul if you prefer it to s/h or m/h) is directly relative to fleet/ years in service?
The fact that You served x-years in a company before Your management sold you out doesn´t entitle you to ANYTHING on the BUYERS senioritylist.

I´d also like to hear comments from Malmoe-guys/ex. Malmoe-guys who were asked to find emplyment elsewhere with the Braathens take-over (BUYING, NOT MERGING!)

The above, on some points even harsh, writing is not meant to be offensive to anyone (I`m just curious, as I suspect many others both on&off this forum to be), and I´d like to extend my apologies to anyone who might have taken offence.
The topic is sensitive to many Scandi-land pilots (including me), so further CONSTRUCTIVE discussion would be most welcome!

With regards,
A/M

[ten/four]

You are all so correct, SAS is BUYING BRA, it is NO MERGER, THANK GOD.

With the lowlife attitude you SAS pilots show on this topic we BRA pilot should count our blessings.

While you are sitting on your precious seniority list, we will operate as an independent airline in "competition" with SAS. Our operation costs are 20% below the mothercompany so you do not have to be a rocket scientist to figuer where the financial wizkids in Stocholm will let the coming expantion take place.

I have heard from a reliable source that BRA
already next year will start taking over SAS`s B-767 to fly long-range charters. BRA already has typerated B-767 crews for the first two aircraft. ENJOY!!!!

Regards, ten.

[Hung start]

:) :) :) Now that was a good one :) :) :)

[KADS]

Ten/four -
if your attitude is indeed for real, how do you explain BU:s treatment of Malmö Aviation and Transwede including the BRA-unions protectionistic treatment of the Malmö/T.swede pilots that was made redundant as a result of Braathens mis-management? Without sounding sarcastic; 'I would just love to hear a reaction and a comparison of the situation, from "your" point of view.....'

[High]

Hi guys!
Took a short holiday and see the thread has developed.
Some of you ask us (BU pilots) questions about Busy Bee, Malmø Aviation and Transwede. I will try to answer to best of my knowledge.
The three companies in question were all owned by Braathens, but operated as independent airlines (Like we hope to stay). There were never any talks of merging lists or companies. I believe Braathens wanted to keep it that way since they operated at a lower cost than us (as we do compared to SAS). The difference being we will fly some of the same routes as SAS, whatever implication that will have.
When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation). The pilots who lost their jobs were given priority when BU needed new pilots, though they had to be accepted through interwievs. To my knowledge our union did not play a major part in this. Personally I think these pilots could have been treated more generously.

[ten/four]

Dear Hung : "wasn`t it"

Dear KADS : I have never known the merger of Malmø Aviation and BRA`s seniority list to ever have been a subject from either pilot union.

If it has and BRA pilot union knowingly has worked against it ( something I seriously doubt ) I think it is highly objectionable.

What I know is that the laid off pilots from Malmø Aviation have first priority in BRA and their are pilots on training now.

When BRA hired laid off Colour Air pilots some time ago, the BRA pilots union strongly objected to this on behalf of our Swedish colleagues.

What I am trying to say in my last column is that 99% of us BRA pilots have no problem living with the working environment and terms we have today. With the expansion planed at 1 1/2 to 2 aircraft a year, up to a total of 50 a/c and with time to command at approx. 6 yr.

BUT CAN YOU????????

Regards, ten.

[PropsAreForBoats]

Although "ten/four"s rumour sounds RATHER unlikely, it raises an interesting point;
Will Braathens join the ranks of airlines with SAS ownership who have relatively cheap operating costs, and thus will deprive SAS/SC pilots and cabin crew of route sectors?
Is this where the expansion is to take place? I think the Air Botnia story speaks for itself. SAS buys a brand fleet of Avros for Botnia, while SAS Commuter still trudges around in turboprops. It will be interesting to watch how unions will react if the same thing happens with BRA.
Seen in this context, maybe it will be an advantage to merge the seniority lists after all... opinions?


------------------
"what's it doing now...?"

[PropsAreForBoats]

High, quote:

"When times got tough the mentioned companies were more or less shut down (like I believe SAS will to with us in a similar situation)."

??
Have Braathens ever been in a tougher spot than now?
SAS is in fact agreeing to BUY Braathens, which is quite the opposite of shutting down, I must say...

[ten/four]

Dear PropsAreForBoats and the rest of you.

This is a RUMOURS network and my claim that BRA is inheriting SAS`s B-767 is of course NOT true. But you(P.A.F.B) got my message. Spinn on this one!! A strong and independent BRA is not necessary "good news" for you.
Regards, ten

[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]

[Hung start]

ten/four,

The expansion up to 50 aircraft you´re talking about....tell me more! Is that something that Braathens have planned?? In that case, on the verge of bankrupcy, that is a pretty bold plan!! Sorry to sound ignorant, but I haven´t heard of such plans.
The expansion is already moving on at a hefty pace in SAS with Airbuses starting to arrive, and to be flown by SAS folks. So please enlighten me!!

Your rumour about 767, yes I heard that we are keeping 2 longer than planned, but not for BU!!!

Lets see if the deal goes ahead. If it does, the official plan is still to let BU operate as an independant. And that I hope, together with you and High, that it will.

If not, and BU is incorporated into SAS, then and only then, is it of interest to talk merging senioritylists. If you´ve read my opinion on that, and think that my attitude on that subject is lousy, then so be it. But I hope that we stay seperate, if for nothing else, then to avoid all the bad stuff that we see will occur!!

Now, where is the advantage in giving BU two 767´s to fly charter in, when SAS has plenty of crews trained and current.

[ten/four]

Dear Hung start.

As for the B-767 claim see my post above.

As for the BRA`s expantion up to 50 aircraft was a rough planed estimates from SAS given to us by our Dir.Flt.Ops. in a briefing the day the plans for a takeover was announced.

I agry with you, I realy hope BRA can stay an independent company.

As for you suggestion of a prospective merger to our two senority list.

If this should become a realistic subject I
am confident the norwegian (scandinavian) courts can and will settle this matter.

I must say after reading some of the postes on this topic, with all due respect that I am pleased and confident that it will not be a desition made by your colleagues.

Thank you for keeping this discussion at a courteous level.

Regards, ten.

[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ten/four (edited 01 July 2001).]

[High]

Possibly a bit off subject, but.......

As correctly mentioned, this is a rumours networtk. It is stated here time and time again that Braathens is bankrupt. This is NOT the case. Truly we have lost a lot of money the last few years, mainly through our swedish opertations. As for the situation right now, it does not look so bad. The results from the first 3 months of 2001 showed a loss that appeared surprisingly large to a lot of people. Many believe this was generated by creative bookkeeping. Why? It is also believed a major shareholder in BU realized there is little money to be made in this business and decided to cash in his chips. To get a good price SAS was the only alternative as a buyer. No other investor/airline would profit like SAS with Braathen in their pocket. And as mention previously, to get political accept an approaching bankrupcy had to be made believable.

[Nite_Flite]

Hasn't this gone far enough now....although it is amusing reading I admit.

Fact is we are all speculating on the future.

HIGH - you make a lot of sense. Your views are clear and not full of contmpt like your colleage Ten/Four.

Ten/Four - This is a rumour network, therefor telling lies (B767) will only backfire on your credibility, once you have calmed down and want to be serious.

...let the future begin.......

[ten/four]

Nite_Flite.

Our future is formed today. Where would we be without a free and open discussion?

About me "lying" regarding the B767, o.k only trying to show a nother and real side to this discussion and hoped for some reaction,which I got. I also withdrew the B767 "lie" or rumour as I choose to call it 3 hour later.

As to contempt, I am actualy very relaxed to this hole story and have no reason for contempt.

Regards, ten.

[Laminar]

Some of you are starting to see the point I was trying to make earlier.

It is important not only for BU pilots but indeed SK pilots as well, to merge lists. That is to make sure that SAS management cannot unimpededly create a wagedrift by expanding the lowcostcompany within the concern.

I question again the negative attitude against this since logic tells us nobody would in reality lose anything on it. It could of course be possible for SAS to expand on its own but at a much greater cost than to buy an existing company. Thereby everyone employed has won since the funds intended for the expansion can be used more effectively.

I agree BU has not treated TWE nor MAVIA fairly. I expect some resolution on this matter before BU pilots can start to demand fairness from SK as they absolutely ought to.

"Buon pomeriggio S.Bernoulli"

[LimaNovember]

Is`nt it a fact that what SAS is doing is to save BU from being taken off the European aviation map. For 55 years BU have been one of the major players in Scandinavian aviation, which have been reflected in the BU Pilots Union`s attitude towards their colleaques from time to time. Malmoe Aviation, Transwede and Busy Bee have rightfully been mentioned. I remember well when the BU pilots wanted to take over the one and only B737 Busy Bee ever operated, with the argument; you guys can stick to the turbo props and let us fly the jets. Further, the Busy Bee crews operated for years, to everyones satisfaction, the BU routes on the west coast of Norway. When Busy Bee were "put to sleep", did the BU pilots and its union really stretch out a helping hand? Hardly. Nice words flew across the Norwegian Pilots Association table during meetings. And then....? Basically, should`nt the BU crews take a more humble approach to their present situation.

(By the way; I never applied for a job with BU)

[Ramrise]

I sincerely hope that, if the norwegian 'konkurrensetilsyn' wants SAS to fulfill all kinds of demands, SAS will drop the offer on their doorstep and walk away. I want nothing bad for the Braathens guys(I would hate to be in their shoes!!) but I dont want SAS to be a 'lifeboat' either. All too often with SAS politics will enter the picture and we all know how that will turn out!!!
If nobody else comes forward with an offer let SAS buy Braathens and hopefully everybody can keep their jobs. The alternative is that SAS will be the only carrier in six months anyway.
For now the easy thing would be to keep everything operational seperate.

It will be interesting to see how the 'konkurrensetilsyn' handles this one.

[Vmu]

The goverment has not supported SK in any other way than it has supported BU.

BU is where it is today because it was not able to handle the competition they created for themselves when they entered the swedish market. The lesson: do not try to hit someone who is five times larger than you.

[Hung start]

What now then?? With the recent fine imposed on SAS by the EC, and (mostly danish) politicians from both side of the aisle wanting to investigate SAS in detail, do you guys think that this development will affect the SK/BU deal?? I mean, waves are pretty high right now, wrt. competition or the lack thereof in Scandinavia.