Merger with SAS
Guest
Posts: n/a
Merger with SAS
Hi!
I am a captain with Braathens in Norway. Now that SAS has bought our company there are many of us who are afraid of ending up at the bottom of the pecking order. For that reason some are looking for jobs abroad. One candidate employer is Ryanair. But what is it REALLY like working for Ryan? We would like to hear from some of you on the inside! Pros and cons. How's the pay? The rotation? Conditions otherwise?
Lokking forward to reading your replies!
I am a captain with Braathens in Norway. Now that SAS has bought our company there are many of us who are afraid of ending up at the bottom of the pecking order. For that reason some are looking for jobs abroad. One candidate employer is Ryanair. But what is it REALLY like working for Ryan? We would like to hear from some of you on the inside! Pros and cons. How's the pay? The rotation? Conditions otherwise?
Lokking forward to reading your replies!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi High...(couldn't resist)
Unless you really want to go abroad I wouldn't worry about staying. SAS learned a lesson 10 years ago with the stacking of swedish pilots from Linjeflygg into the SAS senoritylist. What I think, and hope, is that Braatens will remain an independant airline, like Air Botnia, operating it own route network.
Wish all the best for you.
Unless you really want to go abroad I wouldn't worry about staying. SAS learned a lesson 10 years ago with the stacking of swedish pilots from Linjeflygg into the SAS senoritylist. What I think, and hope, is that Braatens will remain an independant airline, like Air Botnia, operating it own route network.
Wish all the best for you.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Iīm sure that would be the worst scenario for SAS-pilots and Braathens dito in particular.
There is a trend among european national carriers to aquire smaller companies and letting them operate on their routes right now and the reason for that is of course a lack of capacity and a way to dominate the market. The goal could also be to cut costs since the salaries of these companies are in general lower.
SAS employees could in fact be deprived of an expansion of their own company in favour of Braathens since operating costs are lower.
Braathens employees on the other hand would always be in danger of loosing their jobs would the current economic boom turn in to a slump. The first to go in times like that would be the company with the weakest pilotsunion.
Is this really what SAS-pilots want or is it really that impossible to comply with IFALPA recommendations regarding mergers or aquisitions?
There is a trend among european national carriers to aquire smaller companies and letting them operate on their routes right now and the reason for that is of course a lack of capacity and a way to dominate the market. The goal could also be to cut costs since the salaries of these companies are in general lower.
SAS employees could in fact be deprived of an expansion of their own company in favour of Braathens since operating costs are lower.
Braathens employees on the other hand would always be in danger of loosing their jobs would the current economic boom turn in to a slump. The first to go in times like that would be the company with the weakest pilotsunion.
Is this really what SAS-pilots want or is it really that impossible to comply with IFALPA recommendations regarding mergers or aquisitions?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Laminar,
SAS is in its largest expansion ever; 50% in 5 years. The aircraft have been ordered, and about the only thing that can stop the expansion plans is pilot shortage.
Today SAS has difficulties providing enough aircraft for its own production; thus a cooperation with Braathens is only welcome.
As for costs, pilot salaries in Braathens are roughly 90% of SAS salaries, and they operate B737s. So i doubt that the difference in operating costs are large.
As for the economic slump scenario:
If the companies are merged, people will be fired from the bottom of the list, so the result for former Braathens pilots will depend on how the unions decide to merge the seniority lists.
It must also be remembered that Braathens only chance of survival right now is to be bought, and SAS is so far the only interested buyer.
------------------
"what's it doing now...?"
SAS is in its largest expansion ever; 50% in 5 years. The aircraft have been ordered, and about the only thing that can stop the expansion plans is pilot shortage.
Today SAS has difficulties providing enough aircraft for its own production; thus a cooperation with Braathens is only welcome.
As for costs, pilot salaries in Braathens are roughly 90% of SAS salaries, and they operate B737s. So i doubt that the difference in operating costs are large.
As for the economic slump scenario:
If the companies are merged, people will be fired from the bottom of the list, so the result for former Braathens pilots will depend on how the unions decide to merge the seniority lists.
It must also be remembered that Braathens only chance of survival right now is to be bought, and SAS is so far the only interested buyer.
------------------
"what's it doing now...?"
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ramrise,
You are right. Linjeflyg was bought and to some extend the situation was treated like a merger. I do think however that the Unions did learn a thing or two from that experience.
Learn from the history - donīt make the same mistake twice.
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 11 June 2001).]
You are right. Linjeflyg was bought and to some extend the situation was treated like a merger. I do think however that the Unions did learn a thing or two from that experience.
Learn from the history - donīt make the same mistake twice.
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 11 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Merger or no merger.
As of now the official plan is to let us (Braathens) continue as an independant company. It is common belief this is only to satisfy the politicians. In due time a merger is inevitable. Why should SAS keep paying two separate organizations who fly the same routes and the same type of aircraft? A lot of functions would be operating in paralell. No doubt there is money to be saved.
As for the comparison with Air Botnia, it is my impression that the AB pilots are underpaid and overworked. Which is not the case with Braathens (we're paid about 90% of SAS). So I believe there is little to be saved in that area by keeping the companies separate.
The discussion is fairly heated in both companies these days regarding seniority lists. From our point of view it seems our fellow pilots in SAS want our planes and our 175+ commander positions, but not the commanders. Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment. This is why many of us have started looking for other possible emloyers.
As of now the official plan is to let us (Braathens) continue as an independant company. It is common belief this is only to satisfy the politicians. In due time a merger is inevitable. Why should SAS keep paying two separate organizations who fly the same routes and the same type of aircraft? A lot of functions would be operating in paralell. No doubt there is money to be saved.
As for the comparison with Air Botnia, it is my impression that the AB pilots are underpaid and overworked. Which is not the case with Braathens (we're paid about 90% of SAS). So I believe there is little to be saved in that area by keeping the companies separate.
The discussion is fairly heated in both companies these days regarding seniority lists. From our point of view it seems our fellow pilots in SAS want our planes and our 175+ commander positions, but not the commanders. Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment. This is why many of us have started looking for other possible emloyers.
Guest
Posts: n/a
It will most likely be prudent to anticipate that SAS will merge the activities of Braathens some time down the line. First will probably be admin (Marketing, Finance, Human Resources etc) followed by handling, engineering and then finally the aircraft and crew. With the shortage of engineers in particular and experienced flight crew in general, redundancies in those departments are probably limited, whereas quite a few BU admin and front-line staff may find themselves being made redundant. It is foolhearted to belive that SAS will not harvest the benefits of their purchase, chief amongst which is the elimination of double functions.
And the ensuing battle between SK and BU staff will probably not be a pretty sight. As long as airlines insist on basing their advancement policy for pilots on seniority rather than performance, merging two airline crews into one is bound to create havoc. And who will win that battle then, the SAS or Braathens fraction of pilots ?
And the ensuing battle between SK and BU staff will probably not be a pretty sight. As long as airlines insist on basing their advancement policy for pilots on seniority rather than performance, merging two airline crews into one is bound to create havoc. And who will win that battle then, the SAS or Braathens fraction of pilots ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Age??? We're talking possible seniority loss and downgrading from FC to FP for lots of pilots here, and you're talking about age???
When SAS and Linjeflyg merged, all the LIN pilots lost 3 years seniority. When SAS and SAS Commuter unions finally agreed upon a combined seniority list for the pilots, the SC pilots lost up to 8 years seniority.
All SAS pilots agree not to repeat the sad story of the SAS/LIN "merge". The question is just how.
Some will say the answer is a merge with full seniority, and some say the only logical solution is putting the BRA pilots at the bottom of the list.
While others would rather shut their eyes and hope things will remain as it has always been. -No offence, Nite_Flite, but in a longer perspective I just don't see two separate companies as realistic.
If your concern FBF, is ending up as an FP for a younger FC, it has worked perfectly well for many years in SAS. Age is really not the issue here. Many SAS pilots are above 23 years old...
Nick. (27 1/2
)----------------------------------------
I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantities can produce all the effects of drunkenness.
Oscar Wilde
[This message has been edited by Nick Figaretto (edited 12 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hold on guys, donīt bail out just yet. The more you are needed, the better deal you might get. Who said that BU colleagues are going to end up in bottom of a combined seniority list, or for that matter, who said that the two lists ever will be merged. Thats for unions to find out, not SAS and BU management.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Finally a great thread on the Scandinavian Forum...
Now, I never compared Air Botnia and Braatens in terms of quality nor salary. However I still think they will be appendices to SAS, and the last thing they should hope for is a "merger" of seniorty lists. They will end in the wrong end.
Nick, PLEASE explain to me just HOW you figure SAS Commuter LOST 8 years seniorty. Lets not confuse the issue. SC pilots have never had any RIGHT to a place on the list.
Through negociation a DEAL was made, which works great for both companies. Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?
I am sure you ment that the SC guy is 8 years behind another who guy who started in SAS simultaneously. Maybe they both applied to SAS but only one passed. They other (maybe you, but I doubt it) applied to his 2 choise SC and got it, never expecting a job in Airline.
If my memory serves me right - yes I was employed at the time - LIN pilots lost 5 years seniorty, as compared if their company hadn't folded. Also here the same goes. They had no RIGHT to the senority slots they got. What they got was lucky, very lucky. Lucky that Wahlenberg talked their case. Some, not many actually moved from left seat LIN to left seat SAS. Not bad. I think it usually takes 10 years.
I'm not hostile towards any of these companies, just wanted to call it as I see it.
If I was in braatens I wouldn't worry to much, but good airmanship would be to plan ahead and file an application with Ryan, BA, Korean and Emirates. All airlies who are accepting resumes.
OK....take a swing *GG*
Now, I never compared Air Botnia and Braatens in terms of quality nor salary. However I still think they will be appendices to SAS, and the last thing they should hope for is a "merger" of seniorty lists. They will end in the wrong end.
Nick, PLEASE explain to me just HOW you figure SAS Commuter LOST 8 years seniorty. Lets not confuse the issue. SC pilots have never had any RIGHT to a place on the list.
Through negociation a DEAL was made, which works great for both companies. Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?
I am sure you ment that the SC guy is 8 years behind another who guy who started in SAS simultaneously. Maybe they both applied to SAS but only one passed. They other (maybe you, but I doubt it) applied to his 2 choise SC and got it, never expecting a job in Airline.
If my memory serves me right - yes I was employed at the time - LIN pilots lost 5 years seniorty, as compared if their company hadn't folded. Also here the same goes. They had no RIGHT to the senority slots they got. What they got was lucky, very lucky. Lucky that Wahlenberg talked their case. Some, not many actually moved from left seat LIN to left seat SAS. Not bad. I think it usually takes 10 years.
I'm not hostile towards any of these companies, just wanted to call it as I see it.
If I was in braatens I wouldn't worry to much, but good airmanship would be to plan ahead and file an application with Ryan, BA, Korean and Emirates. All airlies who are accepting resumes.
OK....take a swing *GG*
Guest
Posts: n/a
What a good post Nite_Flite, agree with everything you say, except that I donīt think that the time has yet come, for BU pilots to send out applications. They might just as well be flying along in the same jobs, in the same airplanes etc.etc., just with a new owner..after/if this deal goes through..!!
We are the ones talking mergers of companies and seniority lists now. Management have repeatdly said, that the want BU to fly on, in their own colours. Yes, a lot of parallel operations on the ground could be cut away, but hardly the pilots. And thereīs no economical reasons, for SAS management to want to "merge pilots" as that would only make BUīs pilots paychecks bigger!!
Edited to add: I see now, that you say; BU pilots should not worry too much, but of course, planning for all possibilities is never a bad idea.
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 12 June 2001).]
We are the ones talking mergers of companies and seniority lists now. Management have repeatdly said, that the want BU to fly on, in their own colours. Yes, a lot of parallel operations on the ground could be cut away, but hardly the pilots. And thereīs no economical reasons, for SAS management to want to "merge pilots" as that would only make BUīs pilots paychecks bigger!!
Edited to add: I see now, that you say; BU pilots should not worry too much, but of course, planning for all possibilities is never a bad idea.
[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 12 June 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Uuuups! Gotta be a little bit more precise in my posts!
The issue here was not what kind of seniority an SC pilot will have in SAS, compared to a pilot who has been in SAS all the time. The issue is the seniority compared to a BRA pilot.
Quote: "Through negociation a DEAL was made..."
-Yes, you are right, and that deal is, for all practical purposes, a merge of the seniority lists.
Maybe my last post gets clearer if I don't use the word "lose":
Through the combilist, SC pilots have up to 8 years "SC seniority" that are not valid in SAS. Therefore it is likely that it would be hard for them to accept it if the BRA pilots take with them all their "BRA seniority" to SAS.
We have a similar situation with the LIN pilots. They will probably also demand to get their 5 years seniority "back," if BRA pilots take all theirs with them. (I thought it was three years, but I stand corrected.)
The reason why I took up that issue, is that it is my impression that BRA pilots should not have too high hopes of getting all their seniority with them IF a merge with SAS happens somewhere down the line. I think Nite_Flite's post also indicates that...?
Quote: "...which works great for both companies."
-See the topic "Vi vil ha mere penger..." in Scandinavian Forum.
Quote: "Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?"
-I would imagine a BRA FC who has worked for BRA for 30 years, being an FC for the last 20 or so, would consider a place in the left seat of a B737 as "his in the first place".
If I understand you guys correctly, wat you are saying is that if he loses his position, he should blame the BRA management for leaving the company "up sh*t creek without a paddle", and not the SAS pilot unions.
...And then I kind of see your point.
And me? Being WAAAAAYYYYYY down on the seniority lists, I'm not the one most affected by this. To me a merge will be 33 new 737s, and about 400 new pilot positions. But I can see that it is much more to the story than just numbers.
And as High states it: Quote: "Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment."
Nick
------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
The issue here was not what kind of seniority an SC pilot will have in SAS, compared to a pilot who has been in SAS all the time. The issue is the seniority compared to a BRA pilot.
Quote: "Through negociation a DEAL was made..."
-Yes, you are right, and that deal is, for all practical purposes, a merge of the seniority lists.
Maybe my last post gets clearer if I don't use the word "lose":
Through the combilist, SC pilots have up to 8 years "SC seniority" that are not valid in SAS. Therefore it is likely that it would be hard for them to accept it if the BRA pilots take with them all their "BRA seniority" to SAS.
We have a similar situation with the LIN pilots. They will probably also demand to get their 5 years seniority "back," if BRA pilots take all theirs with them. (I thought it was three years, but I stand corrected.)
The reason why I took up that issue, is that it is my impression that BRA pilots should not have too high hopes of getting all their seniority with them IF a merge with SAS happens somewhere down the line. I think Nite_Flite's post also indicates that...?
Quote: "...which works great for both companies."
-See the topic "Vi vil ha mere penger..." in Scandinavian Forum.
Quote: "Question: How can you lose something that is not yours in the first place?"
-I would imagine a BRA FC who has worked for BRA for 30 years, being an FC for the last 20 or so, would consider a place in the left seat of a B737 as "his in the first place".
If I understand you guys correctly, wat you are saying is that if he loses his position, he should blame the BRA management for leaving the company "up sh*t creek without a paddle", and not the SAS pilot unions.
...And then I kind of see your point.
And me? Being WAAAAAYYYYYY down on the seniority lists, I'm not the one most affected by this. To me a merge will be 33 new 737s, and about 400 new pilot positions. But I can see that it is much more to the story than just numbers.
And as High states it: Quote: "Whichever way this turns out somebody is not going to like the results. Which in turn will create an unpleasant working environment."
Nick
------------------
"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all the effects of drunkenness."
~ Oscar Wilde
