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16th Feb 2005, 18:07
Ryanair today confirmed it had initiated High Court proceedings against the Irish Airline Pilots’ Union (IALPA).

Ryanair accused IALPA of a campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots.

This “REPA” (Ryanair European Pilot Association) website has been a conduit for an organised campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots who have considered taking up positions on Ryanair’s new 737-800 series aircraft to be based here in Dublin later this year.

Confirming the details of these High Court proceedings today, Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said: “High Court proceedings have been initiated and will be pursued until we identify those individuals making these threats."


16th Feb 2005, 18:36
Ryanair accused IALPA of a campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilotsNo wonder MOL's miffed. That's his job:rolleyes:

16th Feb 2005, 21:59
Just heard on RTE website Ryanair are taking IALPA to high court over intimidation???
Seemingly yer man Wilson is claiming criminal activity or something here's the headline!

Ryanair has begun court proceedings against The Irish Airline Pilots Associations (IALPA) in an effort to stop what it says is an organised campaign of harassment and intimidation being conducted through a Web site.

Ryanair's Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said they would not allow their staff to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation.

What is going on lads ?

I presume this is spin !
same old shlte or has the blood rushed to the head?

Here the link folks (http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0216/ryanair.html)

Something stinks?

16th Feb 2005, 22:15
already old "News" :bored:

Edit -- topics now merged -- thanks for providing the link in the meantime...McD

16th Feb 2005, 22:28
While we're on the subject of harassment and intimidation, I'm sure the latest memo issued to the Dublin lads and lasses regarding the latest dirty tricks campaign falls under the above as well.

16th Feb 2005, 22:50
No, not at all FlyingIrishman. Don't you see that this is all about "the rules of the game"? These are:

Rule 1. We can do what we want (partly because nobody ever stands up to us).

Rule 2. WE must be measured against our standards (which are pretty low).

Rule 3. Others must adhere to high standards (the ones to which we claim we adhere, at least for public relations purposes).

Thus it is that a company that systematically bullies and intimidates feels itself wronged by people who just stand up for their entitlements and agreements. Their response is an excellent example of the belief that attack is the best form of defense.

However, they may have bitten off a bit more that they expect here. There are going to be a few more highly interesting weeks in all of this!

Tom the Tenor
17th Feb 2005, 07:59
Remember, lads, High Court proceedings in Dublin could easily run into figures of about 60,000 euro per day. O'Leary and the gang could string you out there for ages and is IALPA up for that both in terms of spirit and cash?

17th Feb 2005, 08:34
these are very dangerous times for IALPA as MO'L is out to make IALPA insolvent and drag the Aer Lingus members into the dispute who at any rate are funding the spat in the high court as the majority subscribers to the union. This is MO'Ls way of union ridding by taking IALPA to court and hurting them financially.

17th Feb 2005, 08:36
Now the word "intimidation" is brought to court.

I can't wait for the first Ryanair staff, or group of staff, taking Ryanair to Court for intimidation. And would there be enough to point out, or what !!!

And would there be a lot of money at hand as well !

Thai boxing : don't wait until the next hit. Just hit, hit, and hit again ! You want a fight, well get it then ! I like this kind of philosophy when applied to this type of case.

Hotel Charlie
17th Feb 2005, 08:39
So MOL has started a hi stake POKER game! :cool:

17th Feb 2005, 09:33
I have heard it alleged (note the words carefully Michael) that the President of IALPA recently received threatening anonymous phone calls - at home - warning him to 'stay out of Ryanairs business, or else'.
Threats and intimidation? By whom?

the grim repa
17th Feb 2005, 10:12
the masters of intimidation think we are all at it.how pathetic are these ryanair bully boys?
ryanair further cuts pilots terms and conditions in attempt to dissuade pilots from continuing with labour court action.

Leo Hairy-Camel
17th Feb 2005, 16:52
Well, you get what you pay for, don't you....and in the case of REPA that's nothing with a capitol N.

Looks like we've bitten off more than we can chew, boys. Hard ball was written by MOL.


17th Feb 2005, 17:02
Eddie Wilson is quoted in the Irish Indo that pilots work a "legally capped maximum of 18 hours a week"

Hard to win when the media unquestionly publish pure and utter lies as if it were fact.

There is clearly no end O'Leary is prerpared to go to to ruin the profession of airline pilot, so good luck lads, we all need it.

17th Feb 2005, 18:22
leo hairy-camel? i think i smell manmentage!!

17th Feb 2005, 19:47
Which court is it being held in and when? This is one occaision I would buy a Ryanair ticket, talking of which who are selling tickets for this comedy show and where can you get them from. I need a good laugh after 4 years in a LOCO.:D

17th Feb 2005, 20:02
This may be a hair off the subject, but Ryanair is running newspaper and internet ads in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia for cabin crew.

You personally pay EUR 750.00 for the course and if you pass, your monthly salary will be EUR 1,500. No chance of pay raises mentioned. The tickler is that you could be based anywhere Ryanair flies.

At last word, people are lining up by the dozens.

17th Feb 2005, 21:07
Leo hairy management stooge. Go away.

For what it is worth, your remark is correct, but you're not a pilot. YOU have bitten off more than you can chew - but you are management, are you not?

The reason the mad mullingar mucker is so beside himself with anger is that he is in a corner. And the only thing he knows to do when he is in a corner is to strike out. But the repertoire of responses - verbal bullying, various combinations of legal intimidation, threatening retribution, delivering retribution, etc - are well understood now.

This time he will be fought. And he will be beaten. Just wait until yourself and the two other Ryanair street fighters get their day in court. Has it never dawned on you people that such a day will come? You behave as if there never can be such a day (like the memo published yesterday for us all to read).

You need more imagination (and some legal advice). Don't take it from me, ask the legal eagles. After all, I am told that one of you was even named in the recent Dublin Labour Court document. My sources tell me that this is, well, unusual.

Will the mad mullingar mucker be around to save you when push comes to shove? Don't forget that you must never give evidence that implicates the great man. It would be best if you just implicate yourself. Cleaner all round.

17th Feb 2005, 23:14
this was just e-mailed to me....
even i am now feeling slightly vunerable by posting it.. but hey its only a rumour right?


TO: All Dublin Pilots.

DATE: 16th February 2005.

FROM: David O'Brien.

IALPA and IMPACT recently made a case to the Labour Court - allegedly on behalf of all of the Dublin pilots - in which they made a number of extraordinary claims. Regrettably, the Labour Court in its decision appears to have accepted some of these submissions even though they carry a number of negative consequences for Dublin pilots.

In their efforts to claim that the Dublin pilots have no means of negotiating with the airline, IALPA claimed that the Dublin Pilot ERC was not in a position to negotiate on pay and conditions for the Dublin pilots, that the 2000 five year pay, benefits and share options agreement wasn't a valid agreement, and that the secret ballot organised by KPMG was somehow flawed. Despite the fact that the 2000 agreement was negotiated by and delivered for Dublin pilots, the highest pay increases, the best rosters and the most valuable share options in any European airline, it's validity has now been undermined.

We dispute these submissions - some are factually inaccurate - and will shortly challenge the Labour Court's findings in the High Court. We believe that the five year pay agreement was properly negotiated between consenting adults (i.e. the Dublin pilots and Ryanair) and the benefits that accrued to Ryanair's pilots should continue. However because IALPA and IMPACT have persuaded the Labour Court that no agreement exists, then our Dublin pilots must forego its benefits. While we await the decision of the High Court it is clear that the benefits of the 2000 five year pay, benefits and share options agreement must be frozen as follows:

1. There will be no 3% pay increase for the Dublin Base pilots in April this year.
2. The IR£100,000 worth of share options which presently have an individual value of over €170,000
will not be granted to Dublin Base pilots when exercisable by all other pilots at the end of 2005.
3. We will examine whether the substantive increase in sector pay introduced in April 2001 at the start
of this agreement should now be unwound, revised and/or repaid by Dublin pilots.

We regret that the misguided actions of IALPA and IMPACT have questioned the validity of the Dublin pilots five year pay agreement. This only applies to the Dublin Base, and we will continue to honour the terms of the other Base agreements which have not been so questioned.

We will keep you advised of further developments and you can rest assured that when we overturn this flawed Labour Court decision we will restart direct negotiations on pay and conditions with our Dublin Base pilots without the interference of trade unions who so far have only succeeded in losing you this years 3% pay increase and share options with a current value of €170,000.

Yours sincerely,
David O’Brien
Director of Flight & Ground Operations

17th Feb 2005, 23:24
Too right Delwy. MOL has learned at his bosses knee...the REAL boss, Tony Ryan.
Ryan ran GPA like his personal fiefdom, even his most capable managers lived in mortal fear of his violent outbursts and humiliating verbal abuse at management meetings. He's a legend.

MOL just carries on the same tradition. Lower management turds like Leo piss themselves in his presence. No doubt they believe that by emulating his style they can weasel some respect for themselves.
Pathetic, isn't it?

Trouble is, when push comes to shove, Leo and his mateys are just grist in the mill, like the rest of the slaves. Ultimately disposable.
Ryan lost control of GPA through that very same arrogance. Of course you have to recognise his comeback, but since he's learned nothing from his previous experience, the same thing could happen again.

There's an election in the offing over here. The incumbent government had their worst defeat in electoral history at last years by-elections. Since then the PM has been a lot more 'understanding' toward the unions (witness the sudden and ingnominious dismissal of our hero Willy Walsh). Meanwhile MOL continues to taunt and embarrass Bertie in the media over T2 at DAP. Methinks the chickens are all coming home to roost.
MOL is about to find out why it just doesn't pay to piss on the pols.

As to that Memo...the phoney war is over...let battle commence.
About time too.

Chuffer Chadley
18th Feb 2005, 08:22

I'm not a Ryan Air pilot, but that is a really unpleasant email. Full to the brim with malice.

Ladies, Gentlemen: Good Luck.


18th Feb 2005, 12:50
Todays Irish Independant

A RYANAIR pilot has been granted a temporary injunction by the High Court restraining the company from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him before February 28 - the date of the next court hearing about the dispute.

John Goss, Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin, had obtained a temporary court order on Wednesday and when the matter was mentioned in court yesterday, Ms Justice Mary Finlay Geoghegan adjourned the matter until February 28 when told that Ryanair wished to reply to Goss's claims.

John Goss, in an affidavit, said he had been a Ryanair employee since 1986 and claimed his terms and conditions of employment had been amended a number of times and in a manner that was unclear.

He was now unsure as to precisely what his terms and conditions were.

Ryanair had declined to recognise trade unions on the basis of a policy to deal directly with their employees which he found unsatisfactory. He joined the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (IALPA), a branch of the Impact union, which he instructed to seek negotiations on a number of matters of concern.

Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary declined to enter into such negotiations and IMPACT had referred the dispute to the Labour Relations Commission.

Goss alleged that on November 4 2004 he and other Dublin pilots were asked by Ryanair to attend a meeting at which they were threatened that if the trade union activities did not cease they would be excluded from any pay increase, excluded from Ryanair's share option scheme and from promotion, and that insurance for loss of pilot's licence would be cancelled.

In December Ryanair attempted to subject him to a disciplinary procedure which, he said, had failed to adhere to the principles of fair procedures.

He believed Ryanair was attempting to make him a scapegoat to illustrate to other employees the consequences of making a complaint to the rights commissioner and attempting to compel Ryanair to engage in collective bargaining.

He feared the company would use the proceedings to terminate his employment and discourage other pilots' support for the IMPACT claim.

John Maddock

18th Feb 2005, 12:54
Good for you Captain Goss, you've got backbone.:ok:

18th Feb 2005, 12:59
If money is needed to fight a court case, I'd be happy to see it provided by BALPA. If that can't be done, maybe a chance for us all to make donations would be the way to go?

18th Feb 2005, 13:31
If IALPA and IMPACT have convinced the Labour Court that no agreement is in place then should RYR still have to honour the terms i.e. 3% pay increase, share option and increased sector pay ?

Dont shoot me down the ? means its a question I have presented and not my own point of view.


Say again s l o w l y
18th Feb 2005, 13:46
How about setting up a fighting fund for REPA if needed? Their success is vital for all of us in the industry, not just Ryanair pilots.

That e-mail is full of threat, malice and intimidation. Nice way to treat your staff. I'm so glad I don't work there. Good luck all that do.

18th Feb 2005, 14:03
If IALPA and IMPACT have convinced the Labour Court that no agreement is in place then should RYR still have to honour the terms i.e. 3% pay increase, share option and increased sector pay ?
The short answer is - when working for a company like this they will honour nothing if you don't fight for it.

18th Feb 2005, 14:10
Yes I totally agree however it would seem you already had this until IMPACT & IALPA said it wasnt agreed.


18th Feb 2005, 15:08
If there's any requirements for fund-raising for court expenditures, please let me know, I'd be glad to give out.

18th Feb 2005, 15:10
I have a bad feeling that poor Capt. Goss will end up in the same position as Capt. Duffy in 2001, for those that remember him. The court order seems a step in the right direction though.

Sector 7G
18th Feb 2005, 15:21
Best of luck John

18th Feb 2005, 18:36
The IR£100,000 worth of share options which presently have an individual value of over €170,000 will not be granted

I don't know anything about the agreement but...

I thought options had to be granted at the market value on the date they are granted or they become taxable? It sounds like a very tax inefficient scheme but perhaps Irish tax rules are different.

Piltdown Man
18th Feb 2005, 18:54
How do supporters of the "slaves" subscribe to the fighting fund? It's about time the O'Leary had a proper fight!


18th Feb 2005, 23:03
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let us hope and pray that the the Irish Judiciary and Learned Wigs finallly and swiftly arrive at the overdue fair and just determination in this case and bar from future recrimination, harassment, intimidation and bullying

19th Feb 2005, 00:21
I have a bad feeling that poor Capt. Goss will end up in the same position as Capt. Duffy in 2001, for those that remember him. I'm confident Capt.Goss knows very well what is at stake and has made his decision in that light.Let us hope and pray that the the Irish Judiciary and Learned Wigs finallly and swiftly arrive at the overdue fair and just determination in this case and bar from future recrimination, harassment, intimidation and bullying. Its my fervent hope that this does indeed get as far as a full hearing and judgement, the previously mentioned case ended on the steps of the court rather than in Chambers. O'Leary needs a kick in the arse with the full weight of the Law behind it.

What Capt.Goss needs is our support, and the support of IALPA/BALPA in his fight. :ok:

19th Feb 2005, 01:22
Capt. Goss,

"...the attainment of a position of responsibility and leadership demands above all character and courage."

Good luck!

19th Feb 2005, 04:39
Where would that pesky Ms Turret be now to serve up a load of tripe about the wonders of working for fr?:p :rolleyes:

Something about the chickens coming home to roost seems appropriate. :E

Good luck to you all, its about time the shameless, appaling treatment is dealt with. To all you youngsters considering a quick fix option for your careers, consider very carefully the type of company you may join.


19th Feb 2005, 06:42
Let's just put the threats, intimidation and legal aspects to one side for a moment. While all this is going on, it will invariably effect lots of people and the way they perform on a daily basis. We are all human at the end of the day, and certain things raise stress levels to different levels in different people.

My question is this. How does all this affect crews during a "normal" day of operation (if there is such a thing at FR). Surely their performance and responce times could be affected ? If so, can this mental and physical abuse that is going on lead towards a potential flight safety issue ? No doubt MOL wouldn't care as to how his crews are feeling, but he would have second thoughts when taking a look at a B737 sitting off the end of the runway - one with a harp on the tail !!

Worth a thought !

Oh, and I'd guess that Leo Hairy-Camel and Ms Turret are one and the same.

19th Feb 2005, 06:49
......can this mental and physical abuse that is going on lead towards a potential flight safety issue ?
That should be a valid point VIKING9.

Unfortunately, my experience of UK aviation management and regulatory authorities says otherwise.

As long as they can't be prosecuted or blamed for an accident, there seems little interest in worrying about potential causes due to the basic physical state of pilots (eg decent sleep patterns and nourishment), let alone their emotional state.

The excuse "Pilot error" after an accident conceals a multitude of sins by a multitude of the involved parties.

I suspect that MOL is getting excellent sleep (to a circadian rhythm, too).

the grim repa
19th Feb 2005, 09:14
"no greater sacrifice hath man than to give up what he has for his brethern".not a quote the top men at ryanair will be familiar with.i admire john goss for his outstanding leadership and let us not forget that he has a wife and kids who are also feeling the pain.what thought does mick the snake give them.john is a man of huge principle and is the kind of guy that we all in ryanair should aspire to be and not like the base captains we have with no backbone whatsoever. i wish you the best john.you have won your battle by standing and being counted when it mattered.hold your head high!

19th Feb 2005, 09:17
I must admit i did start laughing when i read te "consenting adults" part.
I presume the next Ryanair recruitment advertisment will appear in the next edition of "bondage weekly" or some other S&M mag that these guys have tucked away under their matress.

Seriously, it would seem the hired thugs think that just because we know we're getting ****** it therefore follows that we like it.

I konw MO'L throws some strange parties, with some strange hired guests, i hope i don't recieve an invite soon.

Consenting adults indeed.

19th Feb 2005, 10:03
I wonder how many Ryanair pilots would be willing to state here that they did feel intimidated by IALPA? How many would state that they were not intimidated?

I'm no lawyer (too much self respect), but how valid a defence, in the High Court, would written statements and/or statements in court to the above effect, be?

21st Feb 2005, 19:03
This just in..........

Ryanair has secured leave from the High Court to challenge a finding by the Labour Court that there is a trade dispute between Ryanair and the Irish Airline Pilots Association (IALPA) concerning Ryanair's Dublin-based pilots.

Mr Martin Hayden SC, for Ryanair, was granted leave by Ms Justice Macken to bring proceedings challenging a number of findings of the court arising from the decision by the IMPACT trade union, of which IALPA is a part, to ask the Labour Court to investigate the alleged trade dispute.

Ryanair contends there is no trade dispute between it and IMPACT and that IMPACT is not entitled to "intermeddle" in Ryanair's affairs.

After considering the matter, the Labour Court decided on January 25th last that there is a trade dispute and it is that and other findings which Ryanair seeks to overturn in its judicial review proceedings.

Ryanair also wants orders quashing the Labour Court's decision that it was not Ryanair's practice to engage in collective bargaining and that there was/is no operative internal dispute procedure in place within the private airline.

In an affidavit, Mr Eddie Wilson, director of personnel and inflight with Ryanair, said IMPACT had asked the Labour Court in November last to investigate an alleged trade dispute between it and Ryanair over the airline's Dublin-based pilots.

Ryanair accepted the right of all employees to join, or not join, trade unions but it did not accept that it, as an employer, was compelled to negotiate with any trade union. It had been the policy and practice of Ryanair for many years to deal directly with its employees without the "intermeddling" of trade unions and this system had served Ryanair employees "very well", he said.

Employees elected representatives to Employee Representative Committees and those ERCs negotiated directly with Ryanair in relation to all terms and conditions of employment. In the case of Dublin pilots, it was for them to elect representatives onto the pilots ERC. Since the retirement of the pilot members of the pilot ERC in August 2004, the pilots had not appointed new representatives.

In those circumstances, Ryanair strenuously objected to the referral of the matter to the Labour Court. The airline believed the court had no jurisdiction to carry out the investigation.

Ryanair contended that the decision of the Labour Court that there was a trade dispute in existence was unreasonable and one which could not have been arrived at by any reasonable adjudicator of fact, Mr Wilson said. It also breached Ryanair's right to fair procedures and to natural and constitutional justice.

Posted on the eircom news page

21st Feb 2005, 19:22
I fear for how much the IAA is willing to take FR and MO'L on directly. Although I am not a pilot, I am a lawyer by training (although having developed self respect, I no longer practice!) and I am very concerned at these developments.

Let's take a few worst case scenarios:

- A pilot is bullied and intimidated by the airline to the extent that he fails his medical (what is happening now can take an enormous physical toll - remember the BA 744 pilot who was fired and reinstated a few years back, only to die shortly after)

The above is of particular concern, because I have little doubt that FR knows this; if it wants someone out, it can just hound them to the extent that it drives them to a stress related illness.

- What if a serious accident is caused - already referred to, but remember the Staines accident in '72, where the death of the captain followed a furious row in the crew room between union and non union pilots. How would FR's CRM deal with something like this?

Now, if this did happen and the AAIU found that a contributory factor was FR's management style and treatment of crews, would it take something like this for the IAA to stand up to FR and MO'L?

Ultimately, I think the situation may require a legislative provision similar to the one in the US which removed Frank Lorenzo from involvement in the airline industry a few years back; different reasons there, of course, but on principle, if the regulator believes that the involvement of certain people (not necessarily those it licences as flight ops personnel) in air transport undermines or threatens safety, then it should be in a position to require their removal from the airline (among other conditions, such as external monitoring of industrial relations) as a condition of granting/renewing the AOC.

It's time someone stood up for FR's pilots and it needs to be more than the pilots themselves.

Vortex what...ouch!
22nd Feb 2005, 03:50
As someone looking in from the outside it seams clear to me that this is a concerted effort of intimidation aimed at preventing the airline becoming unionised. To that end I believe Ryanair need to be dragged into the courts and explain there behaviour and if as it appears, they are breaking the law censured.

As for the stress causing a serious accident prompting a change in management style, I suspect it would but only because the company would not survive a major accident.

Val d'Isere
22nd Feb 2005, 06:26
......the company would not survive a major accident.
I can recall absolutely no precedents to support that theory.

22nd Feb 2005, 08:06
I can recall absolutely no precedents to support that theory.



phoenix son
22nd Feb 2005, 08:11

= Airtran???

22nd Feb 2005, 08:36
Exactly. Value Jet is no more !!! That is why it had to be rebranded AirTran.

These sort of things seem to work in the US. Not sure they would work here.

Value Jet crashed. Oops. Let's rename it Value Jet.
13 is an unlucky number. Oops. Let's remove seat row 13.
DOH !!! Could only happen in the US. God bless America !!!

Anyway, what would a re-branded Ryanair be called ? LearyAir ?


Double Entry
22nd Feb 2005, 08:37
I can recall absolutely no precedents to support that theory.

Pan Am?

22nd Feb 2005, 10:01
Dear all,

I have just reviewed a number of contributions and in particular would like to pick-up on the motif "Let's take a few worst case scenarios:"

Surely the worst scenario is that Ryanair consider the 5 year contract agreement broken for Dublin Pilots and hire/train and employ pilots from elsewhere?

That's surely worst case... for Dublin pilots from a legal and practical point of view.


Paul McKeksdown
22nd Feb 2005, 11:01
The initial one that pops to my mind is how much of this background does 'Joe Public' realise?

Lets face it the 'Firm' have always been dodgy on their route advertising and, admittedly, the SLB generally goes for the cheapest but wouldn't it hurt the company if a few more of the background discussions, as aired here, came to light.

Joe the Public doesn't like the idea of getting on to an aircraft with a tired and mentally harrassed crew. It don't work. The flip side of this would be, obviously, the potential loss of jobs within the company but at the end of the day, with the court fighting, thats probably going to occur anyway.

Look through the boards and you'll see that the T's + C's are dropping everywhere and I find it an excellent thing that someone, somewhere is finally taking a stand. I find it appalling that people can refer normally to 'can only take the strain for five years or so'!!!

If a bus breaks you can park it at the side of the road and wait for the tow truck. If our bus breaks then your hard work really starts and who has ever come across 'Management Error' on an accident report.

Good luck to all the Dublin boys!!!!:ok:

Leo Hairy-Camel
22nd Feb 2005, 14:11
"no greater sacrifice hath man than to give up what he has for his brethern".
So now you're advocating ritual professional suicide to advance your lost cause Grim Repa? Or should that be Didimus? Ironic that you chose to call yourself the Angel of Death on this site, because methinks your bony fingers may well have touched the shoulders of those you claim to help!
I hope things work out well for the lads in Dublin, but it seems clear to me that they've received very bad advice.
Welcoming today’s judicial review decision, Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Mr Eddie Wilson, said:

“This must surely be the first time in history that a trade union and the Labour Court have suggested that a group of workers who have negotiated a pay increase and share options are somehow not entitled to them. We intend to overturn this erroneous Labour Court finding so that Ryanair’s Dublin pilots can enjoy the pay increase and the share options which they have previously negotiated directly with the airline”.
In allowing themselves to be used as sacrificial lambs whilst IALPA/BALPA advance their black agenda, I think the Dublin pilots may have blundered very badly indeed.

Val d'Isere
22nd Feb 2005, 17:34
Would someone care to point out how Valuejet and/or Pan Am went under due to the sort of behaviour MOL is being accused of.

The following may help, for those of poor memory.

MIAMI - ValuJet was forced to "voluntarily" ground its fleet June 17. David Hinson of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said that the airline would not reopen "until such time as it demonstrates appropriate corrective action" for "serious deficiencies" in its maintenance program. The action came more than a month after ValuJet Flight 592 crashed in the Florida Everglades, killing all 110 people on board. The families of six of the victims had filed a complaint with the FAA requesting that the airline be grounded for violating maintenance regulations.
Hinson said the problems at the company include failing to establish the airworthiness of some of its aircraft; system-wide deficiencies in the airline's maintenance program; multiple shortcomings in the quality assurance of ValuJet's contractors; and lack of engineering capability.


In the late 1970s Pan Am began exploring domestic flights. In January, 1980, Pan Am merged with National Airlines thus airline industry, the proliferation of airlines around the world and the fragile global economy led Pan Am to attempt a number of organizational restructures. Following a series of unsuccessful initiatives designed to improve the economic performance of the company, Pan American World Airways, Inc., ceased operations in 1991.


Neither example is valid in the context raised.

I'll rephrase my original point.........

As for the stress causing a serious accident prompting a change in management style, I suspect it would but only because the company would not survive a major accident.
Any pilot flying whilst subject to stress is violating the regulations as laid down by the regulating authority (in the UK, at the very least).

I pity the pilot, having been involved in an accident, who stands up in court and admits to having elected to fly whilst excessively stressed.

Apart from which, there is the burden of proof. I can recall absolutely no precedents to support that possibilty. Certainly not Valuejet or Pan Am.

22nd Feb 2005, 18:34
....come again??:ooh: ??

Big Tudor
22nd Feb 2005, 19:08
I think people were drawing comparisons related to airlines suffering major accidents and then ceasing trading shortly afterwards. It is a tenuous comparison since the reasons that ValuJet and Pan Am ceased trading were complex and were merely excaserbated (sp?) by the accidents.

Tosh McCaber
22nd Feb 2005, 20:15
Anyone know when the High Court proceedings are due to commence?

22nd Feb 2005, 20:16
Then again, several had their accidents and survived
Korean, Delta, American.

One's who didn't
Air Florida

It is hard to see a clear pattern.

the grim repa
22nd Feb 2005, 20:21
well leo "looks like we have bitten off more than we can chew boys" hairy camel.if you don't have two humps,cut and run.
i advocate no ones suicide professional or otherwise,you confuse the statement with the biblical "laying down ones life" for others.my quote was an adaption on that in "giving what one has" for others.
"bad advice" and "black agenda",now that is management speak or is it one of our esteemed colleagues justifying his/her sell out.
it must hurt you to see the level of unity within the dublin pilot group and others.
sleep well tonight as you ponder on the thoughts of how these guys families are suffering under you buddies/masters stress.you have a good look in the mirror before you switch the light out.
you wish the guys in dublin well,hmmmmm!me thinks not!

22nd Feb 2005, 20:27
Hairy Camel, as I said before you not only look like management, but you talk like management. And you are not welcome here. Go join silly Ms. Turret and create your own thread of neo-capitalist aviation fantasy.

One can only feel proud of colleagues who have the guts to do what should have been done years ago - which is to stand up to the bully whom you seem to admire. Bullying is always nasty and can only be solved by decisive counter-action, whether in the playgound or workplace.

Now that you have published your vindictive memos and claimed the right to deliver retribution we again see clearly what you stand for. And if you think that your silly posts here are likely to have an impact on the resolve of those who oppose you, you are as out of touch as the silly efforts to attack us seem to indicate.

You lot lack any moral depth beyond 1mm and you probably have lost any sense of why and how your actions are so despicable. But you will be told. Let's see you all on a witness stand, which is where you are going to end up. The days of being untouchable are over. Difficult questions are going to be posed, sooner or later. It's finished for you. Let's see who has "blundered very badly indeed".

22nd Feb 2005, 20:33
Mr WB has another Pprune name then.....

23rd Feb 2005, 00:10
Grim, you're getting irked very easily,
there'll be no reflection when Leo looks in any mirror!

Gigginstown ERC
23rd Feb 2005, 04:59
Leo Hairy-Camel


can / could be re-arranged


Either way buddy the pilots in Dublin are receiving the very best of advice and are far more likely to last longer in Ryanair than the current CX.

Hugs and Kisses


23rd Feb 2005, 09:38
Hah! well spotted. :p

23rd Feb 2005, 10:00
I copied this of the IAA website. Hmm.
Some safety regulation.

Welcome to the Irish Aviation Authority site.
The Board and Staff of the Irish Aviation Authority are committed to providing efficient and cost-effective safety regulation of the Irish aviation industry and to providing, on a sound commercial basis, safe, efficient and cost-effective air navigation services which meet the needs of our customers.
The Authority aims to be a world leader in its field.

The operational services include the provision of air traffic management, engineering and communications in airspace controlled by Ireland and the provision of the related air traffic technological infrastructure. The regulatory services include aircraft airworthiness certification and registration; the licensing of personnel and organisations involved in the maintenance of aircraft as well as the licensing of pilots and aerodromes. Also included is the approval and surveillance of air carrier operating standards and of general aviation. The IAA also provides international training and consultancy services worldwide.
The IAA ensures that Irish civil aviation operates to safety standards set internationally, principally by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), European Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA), Eurocontrol, the European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) and the European Union.

23rd Feb 2005, 10:55
The IAA is run weak-willed jobsworths. It is run according to 3 codes: a) jobs for the Aer Corps boys, so nothing will be said that might upset any of their "brothers-in-arms" from the glorious Baldonnel days. This means turning a blind eye to the transgressions of every major Irish airline. b) what the politicians say. Note how half the cabinet was at O'Learys wedding. c) money is king so god forbid we upset the biggest contributors.

Expect nothing from the IAA that doesn't tie in with the above agenda. As proper and effective safety regulation does not, expect no proper and effective safety regulation.

23rd Feb 2005, 18:30
Nice one giggsey!! I'm sure your ancestors had something to do with breaking the ENIGMA code:D

23rd Feb 2005, 18:45
Q. Which airline in the US is the most successful since 70s?
A. Southwest, which is 100% pilot unionised.

$51 a tub & still no hedging
No crews for arriving aircraft
Policy uturns at Dublin and Bergamo
Price €6.14 and on the slide again

Analyst's are speculating about a personnel change at the whitehouse in the short term.

The camel will be riding out of town soon.

23rd Feb 2005, 21:32
There's an excellent book in softback at the moment, simply titled 'Ryanair', written by an Irish journo named Siobhan Creighton. I recommend it to you. As someone who knows many of the characters and stories personally I can vouch for its accuracy. Its an absorbing and entertaining read.

The one thing that struck me from the book is how O'Leary has cheekily grabbed all the credit for various fundamentals in the company - which other members of management actually had to fight against him to introduce. Like Conor McCarthys 30mins turnarounds, which Micko vehemently resisted until overruled by Tony Ryan.

And even the Ryanair.com website, which was sneaked in the backdoor as part of a new telesales handling package by a smart lady in sales and advertising...again without approval or backing from MOL. His boast at the time was that he didn't own or need a computer!

But ask the financial journos, or indeed the public, and they'll tell you O'Leary is the genius who thought it all up himself.


Just like his protege Willy Walsh of ALT, his main skill is in self publicising and showboating.

23rd Feb 2005, 21:55
Hey Maxy....Even Willy's Barney would have to agree with you, he so loved to show off his Willy.;)

25th Feb 2005, 08:21
In a word


25th Feb 2005, 20:15
Maxalt makes a good point about the book on Ryanair by S. Creighton. I think it is an excellent read for all, but especially for those who can read between the lines!

26th Feb 2005, 02:07
Yep. My fave bit is on page 128/129 which explains how MOL was putting on the poor mouth with the unions in 1995 and fighting to hold down wages
Then in 1997 when due diligence was performed for the upcoming stock market flotation it was revealed that while the company was claiming annual profits of just 5 million in 1995...O'Leary and the two elder Ryan brothers shared a 5 million pound bonus! Which was more than 25% of the total wage bill for the company.

In 1996 their bonus had secretly increased to 8.9 million....almost 50% the total staff wage bill.

By 1997 O'Leary was the sole director, and he alone pocketed 9.8 million!!!
40% of the total staff wage bill to him alone (in addition to his share options).

By the time FR was ready for flotation, MOL had trousered bonus payments of 17 million, and he owned a further 18% of the airline.

Meanwhile staff pay rates started at 3 quid per hour.

If O'Learys final bonus of 9.8 million had been shared out between the workers, they'd have each received an extra 14,000 quid.

Now tell me again, why are unions a bad thing????????????????

26th Feb 2005, 14:21

He does have his lifestyle to maintain.

26th Feb 2005, 14:46
Grapevine has it that MOL was throwing his weight around the IAA last week DEMANDING a 100hr extension for all FR pilots.
He stated that all the pilots had no problem doing this and that some pilots had requested as much.Reports have it he was banging his fist on the table and trying to bully the IAA into getting his own way as usual!:rolleyes:

the grim repa
26th Feb 2005, 16:53
looks like a hundred hour extension is coming so.

26th Feb 2005, 16:59
Why does he need an extension? The Pilots are constantly being told they are surplus to requirement and to sling there hook if they dont like it not to mention all the other pilots out there desperate to work for FR high salaries and superb benifits package!

Now I know why my March leave has been cancelled!!!!!

26th Feb 2005, 19:44
Hairy Camel,

I read with interest your comments regarding a pilot flying/grounding himself whilst suffering from stress. Because of course a pilot within your 'organisation' would obviously receive your full backing were he honest enough to do so. :rolleyes:

26th Feb 2005, 21:20
Ryanair is an organisation where you get a memo if you are sick for more than three occasions in a year. The memo is phrased in terms of coming to explain yourself for your exceptional sick leave record and to see what you are doing about changing it.

Only Ryanair and the IAA seem to feel that in such an environment cabin and flight crew can be reasonably expected to act in accordance with their legal responsibilities.

Everybody else knows the realities. Hairy Ryanair management mole knows them too.

26th Feb 2005, 23:42
Nothing better than a good old smoke screen to get some friendly fire started...

Company's management motto which until recently worked well...

now people are starting to communicate, they can understand where they stand, and more importantly where the enemy stands...

this is the power of REPAweb.org...

A power which has left those throwing out the wildfire cornered and viscous... the management talk says it all...

As for MOLs pay, its fair that members of senior management are duefully rewarded for their efforts...

but 40% of total wages seems grossly unjustified...

Just to finalise, the comments made about the similarities drawn with ValueJet and PanAm, the arguments raised for the company's collapses are true, yet the comments don't draw the parallels many board members here are trying to raise...

in Valuejet's case, it is likely management pressure forced both engineers to take the required short-cuts, whilst pilots were too fearful to ground an aircraft or check documentation onboard for fear of recrimination...

in PanAm's case, the restructuring plans closely reflect those ailing current carriers like AA who are trying to stay afloat following the 9/11 attacks... cost cuts must afflict al facets of the operation, including the detriment toward managerial pay... for obvious reasons of individual interests, this rarely happens in any large organisation...

What must never be taken out of mind, and was raised before with regards to the symbolism of a broken bus, is that aviation is a different beast... the normal economics and reactionary forces that afflict a supermarket chain wont' bear witness upon what events and their consequences take their course in an airline... safety, decision making, and team-building and -leadership suddenly take greater precidence here

27th Feb 2005, 19:07
Modest cost to who?

27th Feb 2005, 19:26
Correction noted. The next question of course being from whom, or indeed whence, you expect to conjur this productivity. A Dublin workforce seemingly the recipients of a declaration of war? Stripped (rather publicly) of increases whilst expected to produce yet more for their lords and masters.

Hardly a shining beacon of motivational management? At least the Dublin crews can seek solace in the fact that this despotic style of operation, by precedent, eventually leads to corporate failure.

27th Feb 2005, 19:54
Fortunately my shoulders are broad enough to bear the failure tag. As for ignoramus, well I'll accept the judgement of my peers (and betters) on this board for whom I at least reserve a modicum of respect.

As for an application to FR, you'll be pleased to know that I've no requirement to slump that low for the foreseeable future. Unlike many of my less fortunate colleagues who are compelled to place themselves under your charming command, I find myself in a more enviable position. To be quite frank old chap, I don't much fancy the pay cut.

27th Feb 2005, 19:59
"Its the blatantly false sickie taker that we seek to address, not those who, for whatever reason, are unwell or unfit."

Interesting to note the use of the word we, LH-C..... Bit of a slip, perhaps?

Frankly, my dear Leo, I wouldn't fly on that nasty little airline if you paid me to......

27th Feb 2005, 20:04
The job request remains extant LHC, but fortunately there's a difference between a want and a need in my case.

Whilst I want a professional flying job, I have no need to associate myself with an airline prepared to treat its crews in such a grubby manner.

27th Feb 2005, 21:12
Leo the Hairy says Its the blatantly false sickie taker that we seek to address, not those who, for whatever reason, are unwell or unfit. Well that just ain’t so. You guys just tell a version of the truth that suits you. Let me first remind you what exactly the company wide policy was in early 2004, as outlined in your widely used memo to those who were sick 3 or more times: Over the past year over 10,000 days have been lost through absenteeism in RYANAIR; which equates to 7 un-crewed aircraft every day, all year around!!!

Your attendance record shows that you have been absent from work on [ 3..4..5, etc.] occasions during the last 12 months. This high frequency of absence cannot be sustained, as other people within your area have to pick up additional work in your absence.

All absences in the future will be closely monitored and, I need to see a dramatic and sustained improvement in your attendance in the months ahead.

Please confirm receipt of this letter and measures you will take to eliminate further absence from work. If you have any queries on the above please do not hesitate to contact me.

Yours sincerely, Now, here is a copy (somewhat changed to protect the source) of a document sent to a crew member in the course of 2005:I would like you to attend a meeting with personnel on XX/XX/05. This will be an investigative meeting into your high level of absenteeism. In the past year you have been absent from work on 3 separate occasions. This meeting will be an opportunity for you to put your case across. The full disciplinary process is detailed in the copy of the rough guide to Ryanair.

You may if you wish bring a work colleague along with you at this meeting. I must also advise you that it is your duty to ensure that your colleague can attend.
This kinda looks like an "investigatory meeting" that has disciplinarly implications. But if you have yet to hold a hearing, how can the disciplinary thing creep in?

Of course both of these documents have nothing to do with sickness and lots to do with intimidating employees to stop being sick.

Any person with the barest grasp of how people behave will know from those two documents that people go to work in Ryanair who should not. And they most certainly do so, because that is your intention.

The pay situation might be worth discussing next. It turns out that FR pilots are actually on much worse T&Cs than you want to admit. What is it you say .... "best rosters, best pay in Europe". Utter, utter nonsense.

27th Feb 2005, 22:24
Leo Hairy C, I take it that over a 10% increase in productivity will lead to over a 10% basic pay increase........and not just for you.

the grim repa
27th Feb 2005, 22:48
leo you are very eloquent.a master of the english language.i am impressed.playing devils advocate with us poor losers.

27th Feb 2005, 23:24
Leo Hairy Camel:

Just a casual observation from an outside observer. Careful how you tread. Up to a couple of years ago I largely admired what Ryanair was doing. Carving fat off the airline industry was commendable and has, as you've seen, generated a massive industrial change - largely for the better. Naysayers notwithstanding, Ryanair does have - demonstrably - one of the (if not the) finest on-time reliability rates in the industry - in short haul that's what counts - people just want to get somewhere cheap. Really has in many ways become a service to the community - sounds corny but 'tis much easier to get around now than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Most of all that has been accomplished thru rational (tho at the time seemingly radical) adjustments.
I know the market has been a tough one, and survival (and thriving) in said market, requires tough measures, but I have to say - again as a casual observer - that latest moves seriously erode the workplace environment. Ryanair has always said that they pattern their business plan on Southwest's. Maybe in terms of infrastructure, but one of the things that made Southwest strong, was the loyalty bond - and it went both ways - between Herb Kelleher and his staff. They would literally work for free for him - as I suspect you know - because they knew he would do the same for them. You may say this is complete slop, but that's the way the world can and does work best these days. Tactics and working relationships which belong more to the days of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle (try it, it's a good read) are not a medium to long term fix in todays market. Might work in the short term, but hopefully that's not what you're interested in.
Main point - cutting the fat was great and allowed Ryanair to mushroom on the European stage. Well done. But going beyond that - cutting into the muscle, sinew and bone of your company - that's simply counterproductive. Needs a rethink 'cause sounds like a case of "point of diminishing returns", and nobody involved with Ryanair needs/wants that do they?
If you want to run faster and jump higher you don't indulge in "self injury" eh?

28th Feb 2005, 00:58

if it is indeed you ,which I doubt. Take your money and run. Run long and far, very far Forrest, cos one day people you have royally made love to will catch you up! Best wishes, someone who was lucky enough not to be employed by you whilst you raped the industry. MOL rot in a stinking pit.

28th Feb 2005, 11:42

if I fly between airports like Frankfurt-Hahn (which is not even close to Frankfurt) and no-name Airports somewhere in a 200 km vicinity of Milano, no wonder I have a high on-time rate..

Try accomplishing that between CDG, LHR & FRA.. and that´s where the people get off who really need to be on time.

Sorry for getting a little off-topic...

28th Feb 2005, 13:39
Not sure where your thread came from or where it's going. Pilots and unions don't mix very well because of the selfishness that goes with the territory. Take a look at Ryanair, the pilot group sold everything to the company out of greed and now when they realise their mistake it's too late. When you ask a pilot to do something the FIRST thing he says is NO, the SECOND thing he says is HOW MUCH!! That goes for selling his soul and for joining a union!

28th Feb 2005, 23:29
The word from Dublin seems to be that IALPA won come kind of a court victory yesterday (Monday). Apparently this was the Captain Goss case and the judge was critical of Ryanair. I have asked for more info and will post it when it arrives.

1st Mar 2005, 06:29
And why has Leo H-C deleted all his posts?

Perhaps the truth hurts and he's finally realised that?

1st Mar 2005, 07:00
Maybe he too has received threats from RYR's lawyers and Danny has asked him to remove or testify !!

1st Mar 2005, 08:00
Word from Dublin is that he might well have deleted his posts after receiving legal advice about what is going to happen next. It would appear that Ryanair will have some searching questions to answer at a forthcoming High Court action in Dublin.

Either lies will be told, or we will discover the web identities of certain Ryanair figures. More importantly, we are going to see penetrating questions asked of Ryanair managers. Well..... that's what they are saying from Dublin (but not supplying anything hard by way of evidence which I had asked for. Anybody got any press info, etc. to provide?

Hudson Bay
1st Mar 2005, 10:22
I will not address you by name as you do not no mine. I will however give you the respect that a human being, whatever their status should be given.

My childhood was surrounded with poverty and violence. Myself, my five brothers and sisters lived in a rat ridden, one bedroomed house. It was a motherless home and food on the table was a rarity. I had to steal for food to feed my little brother and I was constantly in and out of the arms of the Law. I was one of the lucky ones. It taught me the principles of life and the importence of treating your neighbours in the way you would like to be treated. It taught me how to be happy and how to make others smile.

I remember one day with my little brother Jimmy sitting on the top of Aurther Seat. We had just been released from the local police cell and we were watching the aeroplanes landing at Edinburgh Airport. I remember saying to Jimmy that I was going to fly one day. We left the hill top with are arms stretched out wide, running down the hill making aeroplane noises as we went.

Time continued on and it was while I was working in a saw mill, tonguing and grooving deck boards for ships that my whole life changed. Inside my paypacket was double the amount I should have been paid with a letter explaining why. It read....

"Dear ........,

Please accept this as a token of my appreciation for all your hard work and dedication over the last two years. I know that your dream to be a pilot is of great importance and I would like to help you on your way. My observation of your caring nature and your willingness to help others before yourself has made me realise that I would like to be more like you. I am in the fortunate position to assist you financially in your quest and this extra assistance will continue untill you reach your goal. Good luck with your endeavours.

Your friend and boss,


My flying was of great importance and still is today, however it takes a second place when friends, family and people are involved. It is the only way to live your life.

My guess is that you are in business to make money. It is obvious to all that you care about nobody. It is also my guess you are a very unhappy man and that is the reason you treat people with contempt. You are in a privileged position to do so much good in the world and earn alot of respect from the people that surround you. Your status as a more influential person, could change real problems. Your rewards would be great and so much more satisfying than maintaining the status quo. I was told by my father never to try to find happiness in money. The answer is found in helping others that can't help themselves and not treading on people just because you can.

Is it not possible to have a re-think in the manner in which you conduct your business? Is it not possible to stop abusing people because you can? Don't you have a dream? Don't you want to go to bed at night in the knowledge that every Pilot in the country wants to work for Ryanair? Don't you want to go down in history for all the good reasons? You still have time to change the labeling that will follow you to the grave. Let this be a defining moment and let this first day of March be the start of something great for all in Aviation.

1st Mar 2005, 10:34
What a load of old tosh.


Ryanair have invented the European low cost airline model.

I say hats-off to O'Leary!

Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth.


White Kite
1st Mar 2005, 10:46
There you go, Hudson Bay, you get part of the answer. Some people actually find it normal to be treated the O'Leary way, and some actually like it. Some of the tyrants of this century have been democratically elected, after all.
Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth
Oh, if that's the problem, you can go have a look in a mine in China to see the ultimate answer of how much the life of a man is worth. Does it make it right?

1st Mar 2005, 10:52

A little harsh.....

Its all a matter of balance and MOL appears (to me) to be at the extremis

His philosophy may prove unworkable in the longer term ...

1st Mar 2005, 11:08
I think plastic is being sarcastic.

(at least I hope he is..... :ugh: )

1st Mar 2005, 11:13

as much as i doubt MOL will take note of your suggestion, i obviously still place some hope...


MOL didnt invent low cost... he simply came back from the states and used what he saw at Southwest there...

Most of Ryanairs cost saving methods, like the website or the 25 minute turnarounds, were originally strongly opposed by MOL, until board members or in one case even Tony Ryan set him straight...

And if we could have the freedom to leave the company as a reaction to whats going on, we would do so tommorow... unfortunately, it takes a bit longer than that to land a new job, and all in all can take up to 5 months before someone leaves the company (including 3 month notice period)... thats almost half a year!

So how are MOL's extreme tactics supposed to create a balance when their backlash will only take affect following some delay?

Let us also not forget that this is not bearing in mind that management tactics often lock people where they are so they have nowhere to go, but to take it all in spite...

Leo Hairy-Camel
1st Mar 2005, 11:39
I agree with plastique. Ryanair has done more for European social integration than the EU could ever dream about. I'm not MOL, of course, but I do work for him and from the cockpit window see young people climbing the air stair every day seeking the adventure of their lives in far distant parts that otherwise would have remained only a dream. Young Latvians going to Germany, young Italians going to France, young Britons going everywhere. Peoples lives across Europe have changed and are changing thanks in no small way to low cost airlines. Holiday homes in the Languedoc, day trips to Pisa, excursions to the Berlin opera, all feasible now because people realise they no longer need to spend four hundred quid and a kidney for the pleasure of being snarled at for an hour by some menopausal wench in an ill-fitting skirt.

The market has shifted, Hudson Bay, and the company I work for is run by a visionary with balls and determination in equal measure, a fact to which you seem to have taken particular exception. Personally, I admire him, and in anticipation of the howls of derision surely to follow, imagine European aviation without LCC's, or worse, without strong, charismatic leadership in a ruthless marketplace.

My guess is that you are in business to make money.
You think?

I congratulate you on emerging from the squalor of your early life, Hudson Bay, but might I suggest you contact old Jock again. If he's still giving away free money, this time invest some of it in a night school course to improve your spelling and overcome your fondness for indulgent, florid sentimentality.

1st Mar 2005, 11:41
News story from the Irish Times - via ireland.com - on eircom.net

Pilot wins injunction against Ryanair


1st Mar 2005, 11:59
It added that harassment and bullying of other employees would not be tolerated.

If the subject wasn't so serious, the irony of that statement would be hilarious.

What a nasty, spiteful, vindictive employer. Allegedly.

the grim repa
1st Mar 2005, 12:48
well there you are leo.we seem to have misplaced your previous pearls of wisdom.you really seem to have done brilliantly on picking up the harsh brutal way while working for your beloved.better watch out don't the ghost of christmas past come visit you.
as a matter of note i find that pilots spelling in general is poor,but i love those goofy b*st*rds all the same.


1st Mar 2005, 12:58
Hi dere Hairy Leo, why did you delete some of your previous posts? Ashamed of something you wrote?

Leo Hairy-Camel
1st Mar 2005, 14:07
Hello didimus,

Yes I missed you too. But wait, what’s this? Having trouble rounding up the gullible for your whinge fest on another site? Surely not!
could i urge you all very strongly,once again talk to your colleagues friends and relations.ask them to join this forum if only to read what progress is being made.we need more numbers here and the guys burying their heads in the sand nedd to wise up.
Perhaps they're not the only ones who nedd (sic) to wise up, eh didimus old pal?

Hi there atse, old thing,

I'll answer your question by quoting one of the more memorable lines from Evelyn Waugh's Brideshead Revisited. "It was neither the quantity nor the quality, but rather the mixture".

Hudson Bay
1st Mar 2005, 14:20
I feel very sorry for you Leo. You haven't discovered what your short mortal life is about. It's not about hiding behind a name that you have to change every now and then because of the threat of being discovered. It's not about harsh words and trying your very best to put people down just because you hold a more senior position.

My apologies if you couldn't understand the word I spelt incorrectly, I thought you had more intelligence. However, there is more than one way to spell many words and who is to say one way is more correct than the other? The English language was created to convey a message and that is the standard that we use today. Maybe your problem is focusing on the minor issues instead of the more important parts such as the message??

LEO HIRAY- CMEAL fndis it dfcluifit to itrnergtae itno scoetiy bcuease of his porlebm wtih seplilng and his itablniy to wrok out a smplie msesgae.

I thought you might be able to work that out!!

Besides the issue of my poor spelling, I was merely pointing out something that is important to all of us and that is to treat people fairly and with respect. God help us if he took all the good people out of the world and left us with people like you.

1st Mar 2005, 14:20
LHC - ultimately pilots are sensible people and I can assure you, as an obvious non-pilot, that the long term success of airlines is of far greater importance to the average pilot than to the average manager. The reason for this being the rather obvious one that while MOL and co. can afford to retire this afternoon, most pilots can not and need thus need a viable Ryanair far more than OLeary does.
With this in mind, consider why a union is wanted. Answer, quite simple because it is needed, not to, as you seem to think, to ruin the company (see paragraph 1).
The question must again be asked, in the (rather vain I suspect) hope that maybe, just maybe, someone FR manager will answer it: if unions are so bad, why is the most unionised airline in the US also the most profitable airline in the world?


Ultimately the market will decide how much a pilot is worth, just the way the market has decided how much a plane ticket is worth

If you would like to be a pax on flights that employ only those stupid enough to accept in the long term the derisory Ts and Cs on offer by Ryanair, that's your own business, but I, and I reckon most others, would have an issue with it.

1st Mar 2005, 14:23
L H-C, old thing, how terribly kind of you to reply so promptly. Would you have any objection if I re-posted the missing posts for you? It would help us all follow what has been going on.

Tom the Tenor
1st Mar 2005, 14:36
Leo Hairy Camel has made some good points above about getting people to be more involved in Europe brought about by cheap transport with the low cost airlines.

For example, some of you will know I always try to champion Cork in the Airlines and Airport forum but in my youth I must reluctantly admit to also visiting Shannon Airport to watch the aeroplanes and especially the widebodies off to America and the freighters like Cargolux, Seaboard World etc stop off for fuel. You all know how it is with aeroplane spotters and you pilots may all have a good laugh about it now, no problem.

Times have moved on and now when the Cork spotters and enthusiasts take a trip somewhere it is more often than not by air to places like Manchester, Heathrow, Amsterdam, Luton via Stansted etc. Most of these trips are possible now even as a day trip ex Cork and it is the likes of Ryanair and not the likes of Aer Lingus, British Airways that brought this state of affairs about. If EI had their way we would now be paying at least 500 euro for a Cork to Heathrow basing that on 1970s and 1980s prices.

Ryanair bought another 70 737s last week and good luck to them too. That is another 300 plus pilot jobs. I think it is only a matter of time before they start paying for some type ratings again because I just cant see all that many new pilots around paying for ratings and at the same time being bonded. Market forces will surely dictate Ryanair's future and they sure aint doing much wrong with last week's announcement?

1st Mar 2005, 14:52
Speaking as a wannabe (insert whichever charming term you prefer Leo) it's fair to say that low hours pilots (in the opinion of some FO friends within the company) join more through need than want.

With the increase in turbo-prop jobs, TRSS, not to mention myriad other options emerging, there's a lessening requirement for people to subject themselves to bully boy tactics from some of the less charming examples of the human species for little reward.

Particularly in light of the headway currently being made in the courts, I'd be inclined to say that fewer and fewer rats would be inclined to join a sinking ship. :ok:

Leo Hairy-Camel
1st Mar 2005, 15:29
headway currently being made in the courts
Headway! You must be joking, SK. What you refer to is merely a case of "he said, she said" before Justice Kelly. JG denies he actively sought to intimidate fellow pilots not to fly 800's out of Dublin as a means of strengthening his futile (my opinion) REPA lead action. I personally know of a contractor who has lost his job because he felt unable to work out of Dublin when rostered to do so. The only show that matters is the main event in the High Court, yet to come. No guess as to the outcome, I suppose, but it will be fun to watch. Headway? I don't think so.
I'd be inclined to say that fewer and fewer rats would be inclined to join a sinking ship.
I'd be inclined to say you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Sinking? The Ryanair juggernaut is very much afloat, and accelerating.
as an obvious non-pilot
You make a false assumption, Carpathia. You presume that I, as one who speaks in support and admiration of my employer, can't possibly be a Ryanair Captain, though I assure you I am. What you think of me, though, is less relevant than the ludicrous assumption you make about the benevolence and bonhomie of pilot unions. You might very well advance the argument that they're a good idea in theory, but the trouble is, as has been demonstrated around the globe time and time again, the reality of what they get up to (http://airlinesafety.com/Unions/DishonestTactics.htm) is, more often than not, wicked, dishonest and extortionate. (http://airlinesafety.com/editorials/editorial4.htm) You hold Southwest's unions as the torch of propriety, although in recent months their CEO has been forced out because of the intransigence of the flight attendants union and implicit threat of broader industrial consequences. Come on now!

Unions are bunk. They are anti business, anti success, and ultimately, anti pilots. Think what you will of Ryanair, but amongst all the premature backslapping in the pubs of Malahide this evening, Ryanair is getting on with it and creating pilot jobs by the truckload.

1st Mar 2005, 15:53
Oh dear LHC, here we go again, the assumption that all unions are truly evil and want to ruin the company. I remind you again that a strong and viable company is in the interest of all pilots, management always have and always will be short-termists with an eye on the quick buck before moving on. Pilots are more likely to take a career length view. I suggest that if the FR pilots felt they were being treated correctly a union would not be necessary.
Your links make interesting reading but you are unable to see the middle ground. Of course I do not condone such actions as those unions and I have always been anti-union, however somebody or something needs to give FR pilots some protection from FR management and a union seems to be only show in town to do this. Have you a better suggestion? (not including so called "direct negotiation" as this clearly does not work).

The problem I have with unions, under our current American Labor Laws, is that they are based on force; they are based on fraud; they are based on coercion, intimidation and outright violence. I have asked this question many times, but no one who supports labor unions has ever been willing to give me a coherent answer:

Seems more like FR management tactics in fairness, rather than those of IALPA (leaving aside outright violence obviously)

1st Mar 2005, 16:29
I have heard a rumour that a blacklist is being created which will contain the names of those pilots that do not support the plight of their Dublin based colleagues, specifically those that move back to the base while a threat of redundancy exits on the –200 guys. It seems if those on the list wish to move on from Ryanair at any stage in the future they might meet obstacles with selection at other airlines… hmmm… anybody able to shed some light on that ?:E

the grim repa
1st Mar 2005, 16:32
thats a load of bull.

1st Mar 2005, 17:07
Leo H-C, despite your claims, you clearly are not a pilot. Your interesting notion that JG is a "REPA lead" is entirely consistent with the position taken by Ryanair management in their actions. But it also means that you don't know some things that virtually all FR pilots who want to know could find out.

The evidence for JG's role in REPA can only exist in your minds. Why so .... well that's what you clearly don't know. Every pilot in Dublin knows he is innocent. As you say, the High Court will provide the main action.

Are yourself and your management colleagues looking forward to cross-examination? We know a lot more about you lot than you clearly know about us. JG involved in the intimidation of pilots - what absolute poppycock.

Your description of the proceedings in the court are also interesting. I have now read the Irish Times version and it sounds to me like you people have been well spotted by the judge.

Keep up the usual Ryanair propaganda on PPRuNe and elsewhere, sure 'tis all you have left to say ... "lies, damned lies and Ryanair lies".

Leo Hairy-Camel
1st Mar 2005, 18:15
management always have and always will be short-termists with an eye on the quick buck before moving on.
Horse cookies, Carpathia. Does this (http://www.ryanair.com/investor/download/240205boeing.pdf) sound like the act of a management team with short term objectives?
but you are unable to see the middle ground.
There isn't any. Don't take my word for it, though. Read through various threads right here at Pprune to see just how effective and beloved is BALPA. Have a look at Easyjet, Flybe, BACX see how delighted the troops are with BALPA negotiating efficacy, or if you're really strong of stomach, have a look at the entirely preposterous situation at GSS, where the commands of (BALPA member) GSS FO's are being squashed by farmed out FO's from the world's favourite airline. Face it, Carpathia, unions don't work. They are parasites to industry and cause nothing but trouble. Convincing the unfortunate Captain Goss that he has a case is just cruel. Encouraging him and others to believe that employment since '86 establishes special preconditions to contract negotiations or that free of charge conversion onto another aircraft type, with a guaranteed Dublin base mind you, is somehow unfair or inappropriate, well that's nothing but vicious, cynical manipulation of useful idiots, to coin a Marxist phrase. I'm sure Evan Cullen must be laughing himself sick. He, like you though, should wait for the last laugh. My money is on Mullingar Mick.

1st Mar 2005, 18:37
Irish times 1 March

A long-serving pilot with Ryanair has won a continuing High Court injunction restraining the private airline from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him.

John Goss claims the disciplinary process is "bogus" and was designed to get at him because he had joined a pilots' trade union and had brought a complaint of victimisation against Ryanair.

Justice Kelly yesterday granted Roddy Horan, with Marguerite Bolger, for Mr Goss, of Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin, an interlocutory injunction restraining the operation of the disciplinary hearing pending the outcome of the hearing of Mr Goss's full action against Ryanair. A date for that action will be set later.

When granting the order, the judge stressed he was not required to make any findings at this point on either the facts or law in the case. What he had to decide was whether Mr Goss had established a serious issue to be tried, whether damages were an adequate remedy and whether the balance of convenience lay in granting or refusing the injunction.

The judge said he was satisfied Mr Goss has made out a real issue to be tried arising from the claim that the disciplinary procedure was "bogus" or a "sham" and was wholly imprecise in that it left Mr Goss with no clear knowledge of what exactly was being alleged against him.

There were "disquieting aspects" about the procedures adopted by Ryanair, the judge said.

Initial correspondence from Ryanair to Mr Goss had referred to complaints that Mr Goss had made threatening phone calls to UK-based pilots who might take up offers of flying certain aircraft from Dublin. Mr Goss had denied such claims and sought details about the complainants which he had not yet received.

Mr Goss was now facing allegations that he had failed to co-operate with an investigation procedure within Ryanair. He had made out a serious issue to be tried regarding his claim that he had been denied fair procedures.

The judge said there were two investigative meetings which Mr Goss attended with his solicitor. This resulted in 25 pages of questions and answers. On January 28th 2005, Ryanair wrote to Mr Goss stating it had reviewed the contents of the investigative meetings and had decided to hold a disciplinary meeting. It added that harassment and bullying of other employees would not be tolerated.

This letter was the first indication that the investigation had moved into the disciplinary stage and was the first notification to Mr Goss of an alleged failure on his part to cooperate with the investigation. The letter did not set out any allegations against Mr Goss.

On February 16th, Mr Goss secured an interim High Court injunction restraining the holding of a disciplinary meeting.

The allegations of failing to co-operate with an investigation by his employer and to have given evasive answers to questions had serious implications both for Mr Goss's ability to earn his livelihood and for his reputation, the judge said. In that regard, he did not consider damages would be an adequate remedy were the disciplinary procedure to go ahead, at this stage, in the manner sought by Ryanair.

The judge also held that the balance of convenience lay in granting the injunction to Mr Goss. He made directions aimed at securing an early hearing of the full action.

Earlier, outlining the background, the judge said Mr Goss has been a pilot with Ryanair since 1986. It was clear that throughout its history, Ryanair had a policy of refusing to recognise trade unions and had a policy of dealing directly with its employees.

Mr Goss and other pilots had found this method unsatisfactory and some pilots had joined the Irish Airline Pilots' Association (Ialpa), a branch of the Impact trade union.

They had instructed Ialpa to open negotiations with Ryanair on issues of concern to pilots but Ryanair had refused to do so. Impact had referred the dispute to the Labour Court.

The judge said it was clear from affidavits read to the court that there is a dispute between Ryanair and Ialpa.

In an affidavit, Mr Goss said that, on November 4th, 2004 he and other Dublin pilots were asked by Ryanair to attend a meeting at which they were threatened that if the trade union activities did not cease, they would be excluded from any pay increase, Ryanair's share option scheme, promotion and insurance for loss of pilot's licence would be cancelled.

He said they were threatened that they would be required to pay €15,000 training costs and would be required to pay for future recurrent training. They were also told they might be excluded from certain privileges and may face compulsory redundancy.

Mr Goss said Ryanair brought pressure on him and other pilots to take up the training offer and to sign a letter accepting the conditions including the repayment of the €15,000. On November 29th, Ryanair withdrew the offer. He and other pilots then made complaints of victimisation.

Around December 10th, Ryanair initiated an investigative and subsequent disciplinary procedure which failed to adhere to the principles of fair procedures and natural justice.

Mr Goss said there was absolutely no basis in fact to the suggestion that he made threatening telephone calls or intimidated pilots.

In another affidavit, Mr David O'Brien, director of Flight and Ground Operations, rejected the claims that Ryanair's motivation in instigating the investigation and disciplinary procedure related in any way to Mr Goss's membership of a trade union or to the victimisation complaints.

Ryanair, he said, had received a number of complaints from UK pilots based in Stansted alleging that Mr Goss made threatening and intimidating phone calls warning pilots not to accept positions on new aircraft to be based in Dublin. Ryanair had an obligation to its employees to investigate such claims.

Irish times

Camel Killer
1st Mar 2005, 19:34
My money is on Mullingar Mick.

Yeah, right; the game is on and the score is:

1-0 Labour court rules that it has jurisdiction to hear IMPACT/IALPA complaint.

2-0 Rights commissioner rules that he, too, has jurisdiction to hear the Victimisation complaints

3-0 JG gets ex-parte injunction

3-1 Evil empire secures leave to appeal against Labour Court 1st goal - trumpets same from the heavens in DOBs inimitablle style

OOPS! Video referee consulted
Seems the Evil Empire "forget" to tell everyone that while they secured leave to appeal the LC finding, the High Court REFUSED to grant them an injunction restraining the Labour Court from proceeding with the substantive hearing in the meantime!!!! And refused to grant them 2 declarations seeking to quash the LCs findings on collective bargaining and the existence of a trade dispute, AND refused a further request for a declaration about union recognition. You'd never have guessed that from the Evil empire press release or DoB's masterful summary of the High Court "success". Dear me!!
3-0 Goal disallowed!!!!

4-0 On mature recollection (!) Video referee awards High Court goal to the good guys

5-0 Justice Kelly continues the JG injunction and finds "disquieting aspects" about the procedures adopted by Ryanair And he should be in a position to make an assessment - he heard the "millionth passenger" case where he found our friend Leo to be a less than compelling witness.

Yes, my money is on Mullingar Mick too..........NOT

1st Mar 2005, 20:46
Well said Camel Killer. Their arrogance is inversely proportional to their grasp of how events are moving.

And it looks like they have some more bad news on the way shortly too.

1st Mar 2005, 21:16
It's also a well-known fact L H-C (if that is your real name), that FR are currently chasing contract pilots with a list of promises as long as the proverbial, despite the continued claim of massive numbers of pilots attempting to pay to knock down your door! :}

Keep it up lads!

the grim repa
1st Mar 2005, 21:20
quote "the judge said it was clear from affidavits read to the court that their is a dispute between ryanair and ialpa".

not knowing a lot about the law but,i am sure that precedent is a major player in high court decisions.looking at the above statement.it is my opinion that the high court looks likely to overrule ryanairs attempted challenge on the recent labour court ruling.in which ryanairs case was premised on the suggestion that there was no conflict between the two and that ryanair had internal negotiation procedures to cater for disputes.
i would then suppose that the lrc will rule on this matter in the near future.

2nd Mar 2005, 00:07

get some help, please! All I can see here are several pyschological disabilities talking grasp very quickly. You seem to be exhibiting signs of paranoia and multiple personality disorders....

your train of thought seems inconclusive and in some places dismantled, almost as if your accepted degrees of logic have now been grossly misplaced...

Some examples...

References to unions which constantly allege seperate entities (IALPA, then BALPA, and then REPA) of actions not committed by them

Inability to grasp concepts that support structures being offered to pilots are by REPA (http://www.repaweb.org), not the other organisations listed

Lack of understanding of moral framework, exemplified by the reference to John Goss, one of the company's oldest employees (yet here reference to your inability to maintain conherent thought is also exemplified)

Inability to claim responsibilities, perhaps augmented by multiple personality disorders, by alleging to be other individuals to avoid claim to your actions and/or statements

Constant fabrication of facts. Multiple examples are evident in your posts of this, demonstrating your inability or perhaps your unwillingness to accept the truth behind circumstances

Please please please seek pyschiatric advice immediately!

2nd Mar 2005, 00:50
Narcissistic personality disorder - look it up.

Camel Killer
2nd Mar 2005, 08:53
.....or just do a google on "industrial psychopathy"......it's a classic!!

2nd Mar 2005, 10:01
It definitely makes interesting reading, here's a link for anyone interested:


Camel Killer
2nd Mar 2005, 11:40
More interesting reading.......


2nd Mar 2005, 20:36
I've read the references above to various psychological disorders. Rather disquieting I must say. But familiar too! I'd like to open a bank account so that we can all contribute to the treatment of Leo Hairy-Camel (would that be one of the Mullingar Hairy-Camel's I wonder in passing?).

Your support for his treatment will be gratefully received. Wonder what that treatment will be?

2nd Mar 2005, 21:07
All these weblinks to info on serial loopers / bullies etc

Is there a £50 registration fee?

No, I remember the website where the £50 fee was :

www.pilotjobsmyhole.com :p :p

6th Mar 2005, 12:40
Suddenly the rumble from the management jungle has hummed out...

Are we a bit worried about legal action camel?

Camel Killer
6th Mar 2005, 20:43
No point paying for legal advice if you don't take it:p

13th Mar 2005, 22:58
The whitehouse has gone suspiciously quiet lately...
Any news anybody?

14th Mar 2005, 07:51
General feeling seems to be that it is ever so slowly dawning on them that there may be real trouble for management figures on the way. I was even present for a conversation over the weekend where the speculation on who was going to have to take the blame for the forthcoming "bad news in public" events that (I am told) are lining up. I hope that these events really are lining up, because that will be about time (and should be good entertainment too).

14th Mar 2005, 11:28
Its a common feature in Irish management circles (and probably worldwide) that when the shit starts to hit the fan - the guy who was at the sharp end finds himself abandoned by his management buddies.
They all go charging up the hill together at first, but when the arrows fly in the wrong direction - the troops disappear.
It was seen recently in another large Irish company.

I wonder who'll get hung out to dry? Not O'Leary anyhow.
What was the name of the guy who wrote all those threatening letters and memos? He's a good mark.

14th Mar 2005, 13:12
You mean DOB or WB ???? Both have a sharp pencil but no balls to follow through....

Cosmic Star
19th Mar 2005, 13:50
Ryanair wins court order against 'mystery bullies'

RYANAIR yesterday secured a High Court order restraining two members of the Irish Airline Pilots Association and its British counterpart, BALPA, from deleting or destroying codenames used on the Ryanair European Pilots Association website which allegedly concern intimidation and criminal activity against some of the airline's pilots.

The airline submitted in an affidavit that the unknown persons, allegedly known to the defendants, are engaged in a process of intimidation, bullying, harassment and criminal activity designed to dissuade Ryanair pilots from taking up position with a new aircraft fleet.

Yesterday's order runs until April 4. When the case comes to full hearing, Ryanair will seek an order directing the defendants to disclose the names and address of those allegedly referred to by codenames on the REPA website.

Richard Nesbitt SC and Martin Hayden SC for Ryanair, told Mr Justice Philip O'Sullivan the airline was in the process of converting its Dublin fleet to 737 800 aircraft and was seeking pilots. However, he submitted, the company became aware of allegations in December 2004 of intimidation, bullying and harassment of Ryanair pilots for the purpose of dissuading them from accepting positions in Dublin flying these aircraft.

Ryanair submitted to the court yesterday that REPA had a website designed to allow Ryanair pilots communicate while obscuring the identity of the person communicating through the use of codenames.

John Maddock

Irish Independant (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1361465&issue_id=12229)

Scottie Dog
19th Mar 2005, 14:11
Is that not called 'the freedom of speech'?

19th Mar 2005, 14:36
Ryanair only do "freedom of speech" for Ryanair. The rest of us must meet a different standard.

Leo Hairy-Camel
19th Mar 2005, 15:17
Oh, I don't know, atse, incitement to criminal activity and dereliction of duty may very well be construed as freedom of speech of sorts, don't you think? It will be interesting to learn the courts view. Intentionally wasting fuel, provoking artificial delays to the production, calling in sick enmasse? If that’s the best that REPA, the stillborn baby of IALPA/BALPA, can come up with, its little wonder that their 200 predominantly deaf/mute members are jumping ship faster than rats off the Lusitania.

Since the free ride ends on April 18th and pilots will have to shell out their own hard earned cash to fund REPA's inept fumbling, I don't suppose they'll be around for much longer. The rate of departure might even be quickened when the supposedly anonymous 'codenames' are ordered revealed.

The penny must surely drop soon, folks. Union representation is seen by the vast majority of professional pilots at Ryanair for what it is, a pernicious, devious organisation of the shadows. It claims to speak with one voice, by means of rancour and intimidation, but in truth represents only their own interest in seeing Ryanair fail or become profoundly shackled in order to preserve and protect the luxurious privileged position of their 'A' list membership at Aer Lingus and BA. Organisations who, by virtue of our success, are feeling increasingly threatened by the ever stronger results of Ryanair in the marketplace.

19th Mar 2005, 15:31
Now exactly why did I feel another bout of exaggeration, propaganda and nonsense coming on? And here we are ... on queue. These Ryanair actions in courts, etc. always seem to be followed by a PR offensive where you knock those opposed to Ryanair's abuse of everybody in sight.

But on each occasion when we eventually get to read the news from the courts, etc. the facts never seem to support the great fuss that was made at the beginning. The court case report above tells it all (now what did the judge say again...?).

Do you not think the management in Ryanair have something to fear? 'Course not. But .... let's wait and see. I think these REPA people have your measure.

19th Mar 2005, 16:34
Leo H-C, will you ever change the record...:zzz:

Your tirades do nothing but evidence the megalomania pervading FR management.

I tip my hat to the FR pilots. Keep it up lads! :ok:

19th Mar 2005, 21:24

Who are you trying to fool? If you belive what you have posted then the only person you are fooling is yourself. However do not stop posting as it is great entertainment, your performance is almost worthy of some of the great bannana republics from South America. No doubt you will be holding a parade in your honour next week.

Keep smiling it makes the management nervous.:D

20th Mar 2005, 07:47
I suspect that this is more to do with a "fishing trip" rather than defending the rights of its employees against a "wicked union".

20th Mar 2005, 07:55
LH-C's preposterous postings are almost as good as the propaganda spun by 'Comical Ali' as Saddam's regime collapsed around his ears.....

20th Mar 2005, 08:23
You make an exceedingly goodly point of comparison BEagle.

So "Comical Leo Hairy" it is!

High Wing Drifter
20th Mar 2005, 10:54
LH-C's preposterous postings are almost as good as the propaganda spun by 'Comical Ali' as Saddam's regime collapsed around his ears.....
Why not form an retort of equal quality to Leo's well formed opinions instead of simple jibes.

Although I'm not yet in the business, I too fail to see just what it is that a union can do for me better than I can do myself. From all the posts that I have read here regarding BALPA, the only impression I get is that BALPA and their members generally have two different agendas.

Leo's comments are stimulating and not "preposterous".

20th Mar 2005, 11:32
High Wing Drifter, what makes you think that so many people, in so many threads, make it very clear that Ryanair is a particularly "difficult" employer? (I'm trying to avoid the judgmental words here).

While I admire your confidence I think, with the greatest of respect, that you would not have a hope of "looking after yourself" in Ryanair. You would have two choices; either to accept what happens to you, or be fired/leave. "Looking after" does not come into it. You don't need any more proof than to read the multitude of posts readily available in different threads on this site.

In Ryanair it is not just unions that are seen to be the devil incarnate, but also any group of two or more who attempt to do something togther, or individuals who show themselves willing to stand up for themselves.

Which is why people who never thought they would join a union find themselves joining a union.... Some people get this message the hard way, others learn it. But, apart from a small group of "fellow travellers", most people in Ryanair learn it before they even get to line training.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you know this very well and are a "fellow traveller" who wishes to blunt the negatives that are spreading throughout the industry. If you are, it will not take many posts for you to make your pedigree clear.

20th Mar 2005, 11:52
Anyone who works for Ryanair or choses to work for Ryanair knows that it is a succesful business because of the "model" it uses. FR is under such a sustained attacK from the unions because where it leads others follow. Horses for courses I'm afraid.

laurence of arabia
20th Mar 2005, 12:00
there is no way youre a driver lhc! if you are a pilot i bet everybody really likes you, you must be the most popular guy in the company.

the grim repa
20th Mar 2005, 12:37
hansol,the thing is it could be a more successful company,if all this bull stopped and all there worked for the common goal of making it the best.but now the management and workers are pulling in completely opposite directions and it is without doubt affecting the companies performance.

20th Mar 2005, 13:00
Hansol, I was under the impression the Ryanair was under attack from a range of people because of its behaviour towards them!

20th Mar 2005, 20:52
its gonna happen
and its gonna happen soon.

mick will be defeated

Greek God
21st Mar 2005, 09:52

Or even Airy Camel Hole

21st Mar 2005, 09:58
Why does Comical Hairy Hole fear collective bargaining so avidly?

Surely the synergy of management and the pilots' representative body pulling together would be mutually beneficial? Or would that worry a dictatorial management too much?

21st Mar 2005, 12:38

Surely you are not saying that the style of managament at the glorious Harped Airline is in anyway adversarial .

I am sure you are not suggesting that a culture of fear and intimidation disseminates down from the upper echelons of "Europe's biggest airline"



21st Mar 2005, 16:27
I have no idea what the actual management style is like - but in all the interviews I've seen, Mo'L comes across as someone I would never wish to work for. People like Comical Hairy Hole merely serve to reinforce that opinion.

It will never affect me personally as I will NEVER fly RyanAir....

But I'm sure that they won't miss my 99p or whatever it is that they pretend to charge for flying with them.

Leo Hairy-Camel
21st Mar 2005, 20:08
I have no idea what the actual management style is like
Finally, we have a central thesis. In general terms, we throttle monkeys fall into two distinct categories. Those, such as myself, who do the job every day as a Ryanair Captain, and those such as didimius (oops, sorry, of course I mean Grim Repa) who seek to rob European aviation of their greatest success story. Ladies and gentlemen, if you don't fly for Ryanair, clearly you lack a fundamental perspective upon which to comment, unless of course, your agenda is to assist the effort to destroy my employer.

In view of the fact that our market has shifted, and in further view of the fact that Ryanair has the lowest margins, the highest profitability, the lowest PE ratio of any LCC on earth, and the greatest prospects for success in the future of our business, it may be salutary reading for those visitors to this site to reflect upon the fundamental truth that there are many, without and within, who have an interest in seeing us fail.

BALPA is a useless and toothless organisation, unless one happens to be lucky enough to be born under the Hamble star. Those lucky few of the Atlantic Baronet that are placing more and more pressure on poor old Unlce Merv to make sure that we nasty, and distinctly un-British low cost johnnies just go away.

Wake up and smell the nitrous oxides. Success is the best revenge.


21st Mar 2005, 20:28
Oh and Leo.......to hell with anyone...anything...or anybody wishing to retain some level of dignity, integrity, loyalty.....or any other of the traits that MOL..and the management of your organisation so clearly despise...

What a wonderful job you must have....never stopping to ask, to think, or for that matter, care.

21st Mar 2005, 21:59
Well "Comical Leo Hairy" you are certainly living up to your name!

Very few pilots would write that sort of ideological nonsense - and even if they believed it none would express it as you did. Really CLH ... your cover is well blown by now. Didst thou not notice?

Your preferred model of employment went out of fashion just after slavery and child labour went out of fashion. Slavery might bring costs down even further, but there are limitations to what is acceptable. What is not acceptable is your treatment of people and all the ideological gobblegook and appealing to anti-BA / BALPA sentiment is going to get you nowhere in promoting "management by threat".

Wake up and smell the hydrogen sulphide that emanates from the management team. Your nostrils have clearly grown accustomed to the surrounding stench - get out and smell the flowers for a while.

22nd Mar 2005, 08:24

I was being sarcastic!!!!!

Mr O'Leary/Leo Hairy Camel,

Prove us all wrong and do one decent thing in your life. Turn the company over to a proper businessman. Your brash and bellicose, bullying personality were perhaps the key drivers in the current success however for the next step something new is required and you just do not have it.

So show your so far unseen maturity and intelligence and step aside for the good of the company.



22nd Mar 2005, 08:54
Word from Belgium is that Ryanair have comprehensively lost a case relating to workers it fired in Charleroi in 2001.

Maybe MOL should go over and set them all on the path to righteous by preaching a sermon on the virtues of "red in tooth and claw capitalism". I mean to say, the very notion of workers with rights is so corrosive of the natural order as to be positively obscene.

"Let those who dissent be fired" - I just know the hairy and comical camel will agree with that.

22nd Mar 2005, 09:11

You don't scare me anymore

You don't scare many people anymore

You soon won't scare another living soul again

I have had it up to here with hiding, ducking out of the way of the company, keeping a 'low profile' as is manifested amongst the pilots. Low profiles get you killed

We already had two close calls because of this (IE: Reus and Skavsta)

And to think you haven't woken up yet, or taken the more appropriate step to re-evaluate your thinking

Only FOOLS would wish to have their own company destroyed, their source of employment taken from them

It seems highly unlikely that over 200 people would think otherwise, yet alone 200 people would be under leave from either Aer Lingus or BA

Again, you fail at your number games

Quite the opposite, everyone in this company is working their hardest to keep it a success, and when you kick us in the balls, then yes, we do lose motivation to save that extra fuel, we do get pissed off and pull the speed-brake lever a bit too early, we do stretch out the block times for fear that you will reduce them further, and in turn pay us less sector pay for what is essentially the same length day as before

were not stupid. Stop trying to make us out that way

I no longer have fear. I can stand up to you any day, and god help me even show you your errors if need be

REPA (http://www.repaweb.org) is still growing. The payment for membership only falls in 6 month's after the INDIVIDUAL member's date of signing up, and at most will cost GBP 3.00 as is again fully deductable on your income tax... so you lose NOTHING

REPA (http://www.repaweb.org) Identities are safe, and will remain so. The court ruling will find that your action is merely in support of REPA's case that you openly intimidate your pilots, and this move is just another extension from that

REPA (http://www.repaweb.org) is the only place we have a voice, and i hope from this post onwards, so will be this fourm...

And for those who are thinking they'll jump ship soon, already other airlines aren't seeing the flip side of the coin, and are copying Ryanair's management stance...


Oh, and Michael, should you feel you need to prove your still a Captain at Ryanair, whats the biggest problem with you foolish winglet plan?

Cosmic Star
22nd Mar 2005, 09:47
Ryanair loses cross-border contract battle
22/03/2005 - 09:55:00

No-frills airline Ryanair has lost a Belgian court case that may have wider implications for the EU as it battles over rights for cross-border workers.

A court in Charleroi ruled in favour of three Belgian employees who claimed their 2002 dismissal by Ryanair was an infringement of Belgian labour laws. The company claimed the three were hired on Irish contracts and their sacking was legal under Irish law.

The verdict came as an EU summit opens in Brussels today where the question of cross-border workers’ rights looms.

At the summit, France and Germany are expected to resist a plan designed to make it easier for companies to operate across borders by allowing them to apply the regulations of their homeland.

Opponents of the plan say it will allow companies from countries with low taxes and weaker social protection rules to undercut rivals in other EU nations with higher taxes and more stringent labour laws.

Although the new proposal specifically excludes the transport sector, which is covered by other EU legislation, the Ryanair case reveals some of the conundrums facing companies and workers in an increasingly open European economy.

Under Irish law, the company argued it was within its rights to let the three cabin staff employees go after they served a one-year trial period. Lawyers for the employees claimed that under Belgian law the trial period for workers is only six months, after which they have full job protection.

Ryanair pointed out that the three signed contracts drawn up in Dublin and worked on planes that are registered in Ireland. However, the judge found that the workers were based at the company’s hub in Charleroi and therefore were entitled to the protection offered under Belgian law, and to other benefits such as holiday and overtime payments that were not given under Irish legislation.

Ryanair said it would prepare a response. The company has one month to lodge an appeal.

Source (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2005/03/22/story194777.html)

22nd Mar 2005, 10:01

[we [] pull the speed-brake lever a bit too early, we do stretch out the block times ]

Who is 'we'?!
Although I agree with your general view of Ryanair management style, please speak for yourself on non standard aircraft operating techinques. Wasting fuel serves no one. Thanks.

High Wing Drifter
22nd Mar 2005, 10:17

I'm always a little concerned when vitriol reaches such a level, as I think the hate develops its own inertia. However, after further thought I realise that pilots are always in a manifestly weak position; other than punctuality and flying efficiently there isn't much a pilot can do, individually, to increase their value with an organisation. In business it is what the individual brings to the organisation that can be individually assessed and valued (albeit subjectively). So, in short, yes I see the difficulties. But BALPA's belligerent attitude still worries me.

22nd Mar 2005, 10:38
You mean that MOL's doesn't?

22nd Mar 2005, 11:01
BEagle makes a good point;

He has never worked for Ryanair and he will never be a passenger on Ryanair.

He is in the ideal position to comment on the Management/Pilot relationship.

Having watched this as a simple observer one has to note the severe lack of Irish pilots complaining regarding these matters regardless of their location.

Chickens can fly,

Small point but union subscriptions are not tax deductable in the UK. The portion of the subscription that pays for life insurance is however. Is REPA offering life insurance?

Even if it was fully "tax deductable", one would avoid 40p tax for every £1 paid thus it would still cost the individual who offset the full cost against tax 60% of the full cost provided they paid tax at the higher rate..........those on the lower rate would get 22p for every £1 paid..............thus your idea works best for those that are the higher earners and in reality costs everyone including the UK taxpayer but no one gets anything in return.

If everything is sooo bad why are their still pilots at Ryanair who have been there since the eighties?.........coulod it be that there is nowhere else that a B737 Captain can go and be home every night after work?

Why would BA pick the closest thing to MOL (his "twin" Willy) to get BA sorted out if the whole MOL idea is so bad for an airline?

Are we going to have BEPA soon?

Perhaps MOL will rebrand the aircraft based in the UK as Windsor Air - fly betty and put them on the VP register. :)

People living under an unelected head of state are perfectly able to complain about dictators cause they know nothing else. :D



22nd Mar 2005, 11:21
Hi . Can you tell us more about Reus and Skavsta?

22nd Mar 2005, 16:06
High Wing Drifter are you a pilot? If you are you have a strange grasp of what flying is about if you think even after further thought - that punctuality and flying efficiently are what piloting is all about. This is "management speak" and not "pilot speak" notwithstanding the fact that both punctuality and efficiency are considerations. So also is the notion about "what the individual brings to the organisation". Try the following rewording of what you said for size:

"I realise that doctors are always in a manifestly weak position; other than diagnostic skill and efficiency there isn't much a doctor can do, individually, to increase their value within the hospital".

Spot anything interesting?

Like yourself I too am concerned, but about different things. I am concerned at some of the Ryanair documents I have read on various PPRuNe threads and the manifest organisational willingness to put in writing the threats and to then deliver via the vindictive behaviour for which Ryanair have become a byword in the industry. If that is what is written, then what is actually said or implied in "one to one" conversations? .... now that's the really interesting question!

The suspicion that you are a Ryanair plant, which several contributors here may well be - rather than a pilot - arises from the addition of unsupported or unqualified statements such as:
BALPA's belligerent attitude still worries me.
This suggests a typical Ryanair counter attack is on the way. I think I know what I am going to hear, but would you be good enough to clarify the evidence - not the Ryanair accusation - but the EVIDENCE for BALPA's belligerent attitude? To Ryanair? To its members? How? When? Where? And what exactly worries you?

Tom the Tenor
22nd Mar 2005, 21:20
Did you see Michael O'Leary just while ago on the RTE TV Primetime current affairs show talking about the proposals for a new terminal at Dublin? The other side was represented by Michael Halpenny of SIPTU.

Mr O'Leary was carrying on like a stuck record going on about competition over and over AND over again! I think he is losing it a little? Wonder is there a bit of stress there after committing the company to another 70 firm orders for 737-800s not to mention the ongoing court shows? For the sake of the company and the many employees and their jobs and families I hope there are other people there with good heads on their shoulders. Of course, he might just be a bit tired tonight as he did not appear to be quite as fiery as ususal.

To give him his due his remarks about the kind of management at Dublin Airport are more or less on the ball. God only knows what kind of damage the DAA will do if they get the go ahead for their version of a new terminal at Pier D but to be going on so much about An Taoiseach being gutless and spineless serves no purpose. That is just cornerboy talk.

the grim repa
23rd Mar 2005, 09:10
leo leo leo,what a presumptious little "captain" you are.i have no desire to see ryanair fail,au contraire.i shall spell it out for you.
i believe that this present style of management is not the best available to lead ryanair into the future.i will not patronise a man of your intelligence by pointing out the indicators.the truth on the ground is that management and staff are not pulling in the same direction and this company is not performing at its optimum.now we saw that your are "working EVERYDAY as a CAPTAIN",but take a little time off and have a good look at the big picture and don't follow blindly.you are allowed to have free thought.

leo is it as nice as everyone says,to be an airline captain.do the girls really treat you like a film star.

whips and chains baby,rough it up!!!

Leo Hairy-Camel
24th Mar 2005, 12:12
the truth on the ground is that management and staff are not pulling in the same direction and this company is not performing at its optimum.

Quite so didimus, and the reason for this is that pilots are responding to BALPA/IALPA incitement to action that is at the very least, unethical and unprofessional, and at worst, down right illegal. Wasting fuel, purposefully dragging the scheduled production into delay? Come now, and this is supposed to inspire confidence in union representation? Talk to Sabena pilots or better still, the fire-breathing Aussies of the 1989 “dispute” where their unions successfully ‘represented’ them into professional oblivion. Cause: unionisation, effect: unemployed pilots scattered to the four winds, and bitter and twisted until the end of their days. No wonder Ryanair pilots are queuing up to join….NOT.

Didimus, people say that some sort of barrier between management and pilots is a good idea, and many colleagues I fly with experience similar instincts toward an homogenous entity, but the trouble is they don’t exist. Most reasonable pilots, and I include you in this group believe it or not, would admit that they don’t aspire to an Air France, or Sabena type of union, slobbering rancid fanatics that they are and were, but some kind of moderate, rational partner in a meaningful and ongoing dialogue with Ryanair management. I put it to you didimus that no such organisation is possible. Industrial groups are naturally mutating organisms and no matter how well intended, they inevitably become guileful, feckless cancers on the very businesses whose workers they claim to represent. I’ve yet to have it explained to me how slowly destroying employers and removing them of their commercial advantages and efficacy in the marketplace can possibly be in the interests of workers.

As the unfortunate Captain Goss will tell you, didimus, the cost of pursing his lost cause is at €43,500 so far, and the meter is still running. To date, IALPA has picked up the tab, but I can’t help wonder for how much longer Evan Cullen can convince his happy band of brothers at Aer Lingus that they should shell out top dollar in support of barely one fifth of Ryanair pilots who, for now, are paying nothing. As the recent Stansted meeting admirably demonstrated, the numbers present indicate a distinct lack of interest on the part of Ryanair pilots. Seems like the time is right for BALPA/IALPA to take the hint. Sorry boys, but you’re just not wanted here.

24th Mar 2005, 12:28
Here's a question:

How much longer will MOL be able to convince his happy band of brothers around the FR board table to continue spending just how many hundreds of thousands of euro taking the world and his wife to court?

Shareholders take note!

You can quote names and history ad nauseum, but at the end of the day, the cemetaries are stuffed full of indispensible people like Mr. O'Leary.

Leo Hairy-Camel
24th Mar 2005, 12:40
On the subject of the recently departed, a reminder that cemeteries are not the only repositories of the dead (http://www.justplanes.com/AirlineHist.html).

24th Mar 2005, 13:40
Comical Leo

Rather than IALPA/BALPA inciting unrest have you ever considered the possibility that you and your management colleagues may have driven your workers into the arms of the unions? A well run cohesive company will have no need for unions where as a "victorian millhouse" has every need for a union.You really should look into a mirror some time and consider your reflection and think how your comments would sound in a court of law. This last thought is worthy of any situation.

24th Mar 2005, 15:37

The point you make is the one I have always thought true.

In the current workplace most people look out for themselves.

Therefore, it is my feeling that people join a union to give themselves some sort of protection from their employer.

Having spoken to more than one Ryanair employee I can understand their desire to have such protection from a company who views employment law as something to be ignored when it suits.



the grim repa
24th Mar 2005, 20:41
leo - the floor is yours,lets hear what you would do or is everything perfect for you as it is.direct negotiation has in my opinion been seen to be flexible on the managements part.do you really trust these guys?

28th Mar 2005, 18:12
Just got to looking over the posts after a bit of an absence to discover that Leo Camel says:the cost of pursing his lost cause is at €43,500 so far This is the kind of information that suggests that our Leo is quite remarkably well informed, or that he is bluffing about having such special knowlege. How could he possibly know that? Is this about persuading the members of IALPA that they should not support fellow IALPA members, or is it because the figure is well known by people in Dublin?

29th Mar 2005, 07:41
Leo is either DOB or WB - I've already mentioned that. In any case, and whoever Leo is, he is an insider and like most of the RYR management, untrustworthy - IMHO

29th Mar 2005, 07:44
Its because of figures like the ones so kindly stated by LEO that we need unions. An individual cant afford the battle against FR but by getting together we can. Thanks LEO reinforced my beliefs.:O

29th Mar 2005, 14:09

Get it right you langer,

atleast 3 of those airlines in your wonder-list were absorbed by larger companies due to commercial interests... a clear sign what they were doing was right and sparked interest from larger airlines to take on that success...

and even one of those was a subsidiary to start with...

And in reply to DFC, sorry about the delay, but it was announced last year that BALPA memberships (and therefore REPA) have been accepted as tax deductable by the department of inland revenue... not sure about the specifics, but know that you will get your money back in the end...

29th Mar 2005, 15:55

A legal battle has broken at Ryanair over a website set up, according to unions, to help “hard-pressed” pilots exchange information about conditions at the airline, it was learned today.

Ryanair said it had launched legal proceedings over a campaign of “harassment and intimidation” of its pilots who have considered taking up jobs on the firm’s new aircraft, to be based in Dublin later this year.

The British Airline Pilots Association (Balpa) said the action was “extraordinary” and was aimed at forcing it and the Irish Airline Pilots Association to divulge the names of pilots who had sent comments to the website.

Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa, said: “We are surprised by Ryanair’s action which has come to us without any warning. We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations.

“Indeed we are advised there is no case to answer. Ours will certainly be a very robust defence. Civil aviation has always had an open culture – for instance, pilots can log with the Civil Aviation Authority any safety incidents or concerns they may have, and do this anonymously.

“This open culture has been of great benefit to our industry. If we have a disagreement with someone, we are open about it.”

Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said: “We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation.

“High Court proceedings have been initiated and will be pursued until we identify those individuals making these threats, some of which include suggestions of criminal activity.

“This certainly isn’t the first time that Ryanair’s employees have been the victims of intimidation by members of trade unions at Dublin Airport, but we intend to make certain as a result of these High Court proceedings that it is the last.

“Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for the feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair’s case earn over 130,000 euros per year.”

29th Mar 2005, 16:49
".......the feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair’s case earn over 130,000 euros per year."

Could even be the words of the Comical Hairy Hole himself!

the grim repa
29th Mar 2005, 20:49
what's a "langer"?

29th Mar 2005, 20:59
I think it might not be a term of endearment.

29th Mar 2005, 22:39
Langer loses its secret code to dictionary

By Dan Collins
LIKE the Navajo code talkers, the Indians and, more especially, cowboys of Cork long had at their disposal a mysterious word that could not be understood beyond the county bounds - not any more, the jewel in the local lingo, langer, has been lifted.So, next time you tell a non-Corkonian ‘know what boy! you’re a prize langer!’, be warned - chances are he’ll know exactly what you mean, so save yourself an awful land (Ed: Thump).

Despite a recent musical treatise on the word, langer maintained much of its mysterious allure and most of its currency among cafflers.

It was one of those words like dawfake which had a myriad applications.

Today FM radio yesterday changed all that when they invited people to text in their favourite slang word - langer won outright and made a smathers of all contenders.

Then, broadcaster Ray D’Arcy and his sidekick researcher Will Hanafin, a tarry boy, egged on the listeners to email the Collins Word Exchange and the rest is about to become linguistic history.

Last night, Mr Hanafin said while there had been some threat from hugely popular words like ‘shitehawk’ in the course of the radio show, it soon became clear that langer was, well, only massive.

Collins English Dictionaries editor-in-chief Jeremy Butterfield was astounded also by the popularity of the word: “I have never seen such passion about a single word before.

“We have fast tracked it straight into the Living Dictionary as it so obviously deserves a place. This is exactly what the Word Exchange was built for and we are awed by the positive response we have had from Irish word fans.”

Hundreds of Irish Word Exchange users campaigned throughout the day to get the word into the dictionary.

“Homage to you has been duly paid in the discussion forum where the debate still goes on,” Mr Butterfield said.

Intrigued by the wave of linguistic passion he is seeking further illumination - “Is a Cork/Dublin divide developing over the use of langer to describe drunkenness? Is the term only suitable for describing men - can women ever be langers?

“Can the word be used affectionately? Is ‘langball’ a genuine derivation of the langer?”

The Living Dictionary, which heretofore had one listing for ‘langer’ viz a well-known German golfer, has adopted:

langer noun Irish (Derog. slang)

1. A fool; an idiot.

2. (Slang) penis.

3. Adjective, langers extremely drunk.


“Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for the feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair’s case earn over 130,000 euros per year.”

So, having spent a minute defending his pilots inalienable right to exist un-intimidated...mr.wilson goes and ruins his case by slanging them off as fat-cat feather-bedded overpaid exploiters of the common man (unlike Micko, eh?).
What a LANGER!

30th Mar 2005, 05:04
Well maxalt, what can one say.... the lowdown on Ryanair AND a literary education at the same time. You just don't get this quality of contribution on the other threads! Just to be associated with such quality makes for vague feelings of superiority.

My feeling is that there may be more than one langer in Ryanair management.

30th Mar 2005, 06:58
This looks like a Maxwell-style attempt to damage BALPA and IALPA by spending their (our) money in a court battle. Win or lose, it is a tactic that he has chosen to deflect them from fighting for better conditions. It worked very well for Maxwell so it's not surprising he's giving it a try.

30th Mar 2005, 07:34
For what it's worth:

I would not work for a company run by O'Leary or anyone remotely like him. The various threads about Ryanair do paint a picture of a very poisonous atmosphere. Neither can one ignore the many rumours about corner-cutting and errors which reduce the safety margin. It does not go with aeroplanes.

My daughter and some of her friends have flown several times with Ryanair in the past. I have convinced them not to in the future. The arrangement I have is that whatever journey she wishes to make, she should make it on another carrier and if she can make it more cheaply with Ryanair (taking all costs into account) I will refund her the difference.

I know of others who do the same. It will snow-ball. Good luck, Ryans, you need to get rid of him and his accolytes.

30th Mar 2005, 07:39
Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said: "We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation.

So there you are guys, the next time you are intimidated by any of your managers go and see your Director of Personnel and he will sort it out for you; or is he only referring to "organised campaign"?

Better still mark the letter "Confidential" and then he won’t be able to disclose who it came from. Ryanair’s own private "Chirp"; better still sent Chirp a copy.

30th Mar 2005, 08:19
"We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation.

Hahahaha. Unless RYR management is unorganised they do fit this description 100% :p

30th Mar 2005, 09:07
Jim McAuslan, general secretary of Balpa should check his facts.

The CAA and CHIRP do not accept anonymous reports.

What they do is keep the identity of the person making the report confidential in all cases of CHIRP and when requested in reports to the CAA.


The only real interest I have in Ryanair is in it making lots of money for my pension! :)


A rather boring layover so I decided to check who were the people commenting on this issue;

The most distant was from Australia.

The large majority are from the UK.

A few are from Ireland.

There has seldom been a week when there wasn't a Ryanair bashing thred on PPRuNe.........most people would simply say sour grapes from people like BEagle who have no interest in Ryanair on a professional or customer basis but in most cases seem to dislike the idea that EI registered aircraft are making a fortune flying from a UK airport.

Perhaps people who shout intimidation etc should look at the UK system...........the MOD was at tribunal recently regarding such a case, not to mention BA more recently again.

Anyone with half a brain knows that working for Ryanair will be hard work..........but isn't that a very British ethos - working hard for a fair day's pay?

Organisations with severe people management problems leak staff like nothing else.........withness the numbers of NATS people who (despite being well paid) have crossed the Atlantic to get away from what most describe as absolute rubbish management.

There is no kosh over the head and then wake-up in a Ryanair uniform.........people make an informed choice. One can leave at any time..........an option that few experienced pilots seem to take - why?

Most of the companies I have worked for over the years have had unions and all those unions have been a waste of time - some companies have had the union request a vote and then when the vote did not meet the union and management agenda, a second vote was made......is that any different from Ryanair saying this is what is on offer take it or leave it?...........Yes it is....by the % of income passed to the union!!!!



The inland revenue allow subscriptions to professional and trade associations to be offset against tax.......examples are CORGI etc. I suppose GAPAN could be another example or GATCO.

However none of those organisations operate as unions or seek any specific representation with employers on behalf of individuals - they merely try to maintain standards among their members.

You will note that in the ATC world GATCO is the "trade association" and the union is another separate entity.

If one pays £1000 per year to say CORGI then that 1000 is deducted from profit before tax is calculated. Thus all one saves is 1000 * 40p (if one pays at the higher rate) = £400.

Thus the £1000 that Corgi receives is made up of £600 from the individual and £400 from the UK tax payer.

That is how it works - REPA membership (if the IR allow it to be offset which I doubt) will work in the same way.

It is untrue to say that it will not cost members anything!



Pax Vobiscum
30th Mar 2005, 10:39
The Today* programme had a two-minute interview with Jim McAuslan on this topic (no Ryanair spokesman was available). You can 'listen again' here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ram/today5_business_20050330.ram) - at least for the next day or so (Real Player required).

* For the benefit of non-Brits, "Today" is BBC Radio's flagship news programme.

30th Mar 2005, 11:53

Well done for taking the time to go through all those user's profiles. All that does is reinforce the big red warning provided to us all at the bottom of every single page of PPRuNe.

However, it is fairly obvious that a number of people posting on these FR threads (despite their claimed location) have good knowledge of the inner workings of Ryanair, their pilots, and their management.

It is not so long ago that we were debating "memos" issued to FR pilots by FR management, that, regardless of anyone's left-wing or right-wing stance, were a highly questionable way to treat their staff.

Now let's look at the other facts that get lost in the amount of rhetoric thrown around.

REPA/IALPA/BALPA have not made any claim on behalf of FR pilots.
There is no threat of industrial action.
REPA/IALPA/BALPA have sought to clarify the terms and conditions under which FR pilots are employed.
This is at the behest of FR pilots, who have asked to be represented by these officials.
Should these guys be denied the right to make a decision as to who represents them on employment matters?
Now, FR decide to take legal action against these people, citing time and again, "union recognition." Anyone who knows Irish employment legislation slightly well, knows there is no actual mechanism called "union recognition" in Irish law.

FR management keeps banging on about the superior terms and conditions their pilots enjoy, so why are they so shy about clairfying it when asked?

The FR pilots decided they wanted some help. They asked for it, and they're getting it. The only people who can change their course are the FR pilots. I've been at a number of FR pilots' meetings. The pilots know the course they want to take. The pilots have my full support.

30th Mar 2005, 12:29
Now the DFC is a prestigious gong - which usually takes more than a little courage to earn. I am, therefore, more than a little confounded when someone using this handle shows a consumate lack of character with his post.

The fact that other orgaisations use intimidation to further thier narrow objectives does not excuse Ryanair from its use of this medium to manage its staff. What is more, rarely does an employment situation exist in the aviation industry, in which pilots who don't like being intimidated can simply up sticks to another continent and carry out their chosen profession. By and large there has been too many potential employees seeking too few jobs, thus putting up rather than standing up has been the metaphore.

It is ludicrous to suggest that the unions/pilot associations in the aviation industry are useless. What makes the medal holder believe that the conditions in the 'heritage' airlines are a benefice handed down by an all-too-generous employer! Realistically they are there because the pilot associations have striven for them over many years.

Rather than develop further this dismissal of a rather characterless post, let me just conclude by saying it appears just as well for DFC that his pension does not lie within the control of Ryanair!

Self Loading Freight
30th Mar 2005, 12:41
As one of M O'L's customers and a member of a union, this is all most interesting. One thing I don't understand...

How does

Ryanair’s Director of Personnel, Eddie Wilson said: “We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation."

work with

“Dublin Airport should exist for the benefit of the travelling public, and not for the feather bedding the high salaries and restrictive practices of pilots, many of whom in Ryanair’s case earn over 130,000 euros per year.”


Doesn't having your own DP accusing you of "feather bedding and restrictive practices" count as intimidation? And isn't he responsible for instituting those practices in the first place?

It's all too confusing for a bear of little brain.


30th Mar 2005, 12:54

I stand corrected on the topic of tax returns... Thank you for clarifying things...

Yet I fail to understand why less than 20 pounds a year for legal, advisory, and coworker support seems to be such a big deal for some people! Truthfully that's 6 fewer pints a year

As for your comments regarding the various facts you outlined, most individuals in the out-bases are unaware or unaffected by the ongoings at RYR HQ in DUB or STN, and therefore have no interest in comment...

it seems that as of late only STN and DUB have bore the burden of MOLs folly. That will soon change. As will the source of posts...

If you are so happy where you are, can I ask you do you feel you can question any of Ryanair's actions without fear for repurcussion or dismissal?
And if your answer there is yes, then please, for all of us, ask why we haven't had a return of atleast some of our withdrawn benefits (such as loss of license) even though the financial report for last year proves that MOL's predictions were completely wrong, that our sacrifices were in no way necessary?

How about starting with water onboard for the crew again?

Let us know what they tell you...

30th Mar 2005, 16:04
A rather misleading post by DFC, although not quite an outright lie, in that while CAA and CHIRP don't accept anonymous reports - they certainly don't make them available on demand to the likes of Ryanair management (which I presume DFC is)

Also he states that many of the posts are from the UK as if that disqualifies their opinion -well isn't that where a great many Ryanair pilots are based. And one can hardly be surprised if Dublin based Ryan pilots are wary of posting given this court case to uncover the identity of those expressing their opinion -surely a brazen example of intimidation?

1st Apr 2005, 01:32
I'm getting a bit pee'd off with the anti-union comments of Leo Hairyarse and others. They proceed from the simplistic premise that 'unions are bad, management are good'. Always.
What guff.

Here in Ireland we've just seen a couple of recent highly publicised examples of how fair minded and trustworthy management are when unhindered by union interference.

The first is todays news about Turkish building workers who have been getting paid between 2 and 3 euro per hour! When the exploitation was uncovered by an MP the company tried to pass it off as - eh- a 'mistake', and they then chose to scapegoat another employee! The national minimum wage is 7 euros per hour, and the minimum agreed wage for (unionised) building workers is 12.96 euro per hour. Some of these workers were underpaid by as much as 3,500 euro in the current year.
Quite an - er - 'mistake'.

But WAIT...there's more!

A Philipino hairdresser, working on an Irish Sea ferry boat was found to be getting...1 euro per hour! When the poor womans plight was exposed the company tried to send her home! She begged to be allowed to stay and work FOR FREE.

A picture is emerging of massive exploitation of immigrant labour all across the country. These workers have been afraid to speak out or fight to improve their wages and conditions because of the threat from employers to send them back home if they cause "trouble".

You pilots out there who are 'anti-union' should realise exactly what your lives would be like were it not for the others in the industry who defend your profession against the creeping advance of these exploiters. You may not believe in unions, you may not be in a union, but by God you BENEFIT from the efforts of those who have the backbone to stand up and fight.

1st Apr 2005, 09:54
well said maxalt , i totally agree
sadly there are more pilots with ostrich tendencies in ryanair then just about anywhere else ...
so many of them "claim " not to know about whats going on in dublin with the various court cases yet its only a finger tip away on the Repa website
they always moan and complain about ryanair but when asked if they have registered its always "oh i forgot ,i'll do it tomorrow"
"oh is that stuff actually on the repa website ?"
or the all time classic " i didnt even know they had a website "

yeah right, wise up :yuk:

seeing intelligent men try hard or even pretend to be
IGNORANT is a very sad sight

as pilots , we wouldnt take off with out all the facts about the destination , so why walk blindly on with your life in Ryanair ???

Leo Hairy-Camel
1st Apr 2005, 15:26
Should these guys be denied the right to make a decision as to who represents them on employment matters? Certainly not, minuteman, but neither should they be bullied into membership when clearly they don't want it. Rational, educated adults are quite capable of deciding for themselves with whom they associate without REPA's two IALPA funded henchmen pressing the flesh and quoting blatant falsehoods, such as:-The FR pilots decided they wanted some help. No they haven't. Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking.They asked for it, No we haven't. I'd be fascinated to hear your justification of this blatantly false exaggeration of fact. As measured by their turgid and profoundly user unfriendly website (funded yet again by IALPA's evidently deep-pocketed Aer Lingus pilot members), REPA has barely 200 registered members, or around one fifth of the Ryanair pilots corps, and even that poultry figure is declining by the hour. One fifth! You might think of this as representative membership minuteman, but I and others think of it as an exercise in futility and pinup to underachievement. REPA is beside itself, of course, to establish in the collective psyche of Ryanair pilots, and perhaps more importantly, the minds of the long suffering Aer Lingus pilots that they should continue, most generously I think, to fork out their own money in the hopeless attempt at getting this lame duck airborne, and interesting, isn't it, that time is running out in more ways than one. Mounting court costs as the latest legal pig-in-a-poke is salivated over, pressure from IALPA for results, and REPA’s 6 moths free honeymoon about to expire. Oh dear! and they're getting it. Are we indeed? This is the REPA comedy hour at its most side-splitting. The only real request made of REPA and their two IALPA funded henchmen, was to guarantee the confidentiality of member aliases. With hand on heart, everyone was promised that there was no way that evil Ryanair management would get their hands on membership details, and so a full and frank exchange of ideas was proposed. You know, something really juicy to angry up the blood and get the long suffering employees of the Ryanair sweatshop some well deserved representation. Well guess what, merely one High Court injunction later, and all those hand-on-heart assurances have changed somewhat to "we'll protect your details to the extent we're able", and "so as not to offend the courts". Meanwhile, REPA have rolled over quicker than a lapdog by the fireplace looking for a tummy tickle and handed the lot over to the Garda and officers of the Court to assist in an ongoing criminal investigation. Pity you didn't think to tell your website membership it was unwise to advocate the use of illegal and irresponsible practices to advance your cause. Perhaps a greater pity that you remained silent while it was going on. Could it be that a higher purpose was being served by such duplicitous tight lips? We shall see.
Yet I fail to understand why less than 20 pounds a year for legal, advisory, and coworker support seems to be such a big deal for some people! Truthfully that's 6 fewer pints a year Chickens, I usually prefer to ignore your posts since I remain convinced English is not your mother tongue. This one made it through the universal translator, though, and you need to be put right. IALPA/BALPA, and shortly REPA membership runs at 1% of gross annual salary. I don't know about you, but I made 80,000 pounds as a Ryanair Captain last year which would mean 800 quid I'd have to fork out for union membership were I deranged enough to consider it. Not sure what pub you like drinking in, but I can get a lot more than 6 pints for 800 quid where I go.

Folks, the only issue for consideration here is honesty, regardless of personal politics. IALPA/BALPA's bastard lovechild REPA burst onto the scene almost 6 months ago amid a dazzling fiesta of opprobrium promising all things to all pilots. Lets review its achievements to date, shall we? Widespread rancour and ill-will, encouraged an atmosphere of defiance and non-cooperation, the use of hubris and intimidation to advance the strength of their morally corrupt non-arguments. All tiresomely familiar and absolutely typical. I wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole, but then I’m one of the vast majority four fifths of us in the collective Ryanair cockpit who see you for what you are, are aware of your true agenda and want nothing whatsoever to do with you.

Face it, boys, the word is out. Not only is REPA dishonest and ineffective, not only does it betray the trust of its members who were lead to believe that their privacy would remain sacrosanct, but in 17 days, they're going to have the cheek to ask you to pay for it, and pay through the nose!

1st Apr 2005, 15:54
REPA has barely 200 registered members, or around one fifth of the Ryanair pilots corps, and even that poultry figure is declining by the hour

Does this mean that the figure will come home to roost, scratch around or lay (golden) eggs? Or would someone with 'english as their mother tongue' consider it a paltry figure?

That said, what a curious rant from someone who appears to want to impose his view on others. If the guys want to join a union, let them. If the union is so bad, it will fade and die, if it is good it will flourish. If you don't want to join, don't, but don't get all fascist and deny people the opportunity to decide for themselves.

1st Apr 2005, 16:42
Beardy, even worse than the chicken figures is the '6 moths (sic) free' that REPA are offering. Hardly an incentive! :rolleyes:

LHC, D minus for spelling. Must do better.

Faire d'income
1st Apr 2005, 16:48
Why was my post deleted?

Does the great ego's ''influence'' extend beyond all our local publications and into cyberworld now?

If so shame shame shame on PPrune. :mad:

1st Apr 2005, 17:06
hi leo , warwick , eddie, mikey or davey ...who ever ....
bit loose with your figures there old chappie
ryanair has between 500 and 700 hundred pilots , not sure of the numbers due to the amount leaving and the dwindling amount of contractors not renewing contracts ...
the only reason to mention 1000 pilots is because that is the amount of pilots we currently need , sadly for you , there is no longer a steady stream people willing to take the conditions doled out at ryanair...isnt that why we are cancelling flights at the moment ???
well done on the psych warfare , trying to convince people that you may be able to get at REPA's database to scare them into resigning membership was something i didnt foresee but anyone with HALF a brain will know that you HAV'NT a hope of getting this in the courts so i'm not scared ...
now YOU on the other hand should be, all those court cases that you and your buddies keep losing and losing and losing and whats that i see??? a few dates pencilled in at the labour court and comission and oh yes lets not forget the High court later this month ...could be an expensive month for you , my smelly little camel

" I love it when a plan comes together "

1st Apr 2005, 17:49
One can only admire the boundless confidence of Ryanair's representatives and fellow travellers. While this orientation can be partially explained by their successes in resisting disabled passengers, abused/frustrated passengers who set up websites and so forth, there is a tendancy to forget just how badly, in general, Ryanair do when they get into court. Their confidence seems to grow inversely with their weaknesses when it comes to the facts.

Who would guess from the nonsense above that pilot supply problems continue to be a major problem and that even basic CPL/IR types in need of a job now ask awkward questions at interview about their prospective employment conditions at Ryanair? The Ryanair "pitch" is all so positive, and also such a load of codswallop.

What of the "indentured labour cabin crew" who refuse to play the game and just cut and run? What of the increasing inability to keep employees? The "word" is out about Ryanair and the "word" is based on reality. The accusations by Ryanair about REPA and their "numbers" are self-serving (and for people who have informers, surprisingly ill-informed - just by looking at the members list on the REPA site it is clearly a lot closer to 300 than 200). What Ryanair and its hencemen cannot recognise is that there are facts and realities and, in the end, they do come to roost.

Is it really a matter of propaganda or delusion to claim that there have been memos - some reproduced on PPRUNE - in which management threats were made explicit?

Just as the buck stops somewhere, so to does the truth. That truth is that Ryanair management, nothwithstanding honourable exceptions, is peopled by a particularly selfish, self-serving and offensive group who preach in jump seats, in corridors, in offices, etc. the kind of guff and propaganda presented above. Like puppets they keep repeating it, at their masters behest, to try to keep the tide from coming in. King Canute failed to stop the tide, as will King MOL. King MOL has no clothes; he now stands revealed for the vindictive word twisting little bully we know and dislike so much.

1st Apr 2005, 18:11
Geez Michael, did you get that 80000 a year licking Continental Share-Holder ***?

Lets be realistic here, please, and cut the crap about 6 months free subscription about to run out, it begins from the period the INDIVIDUAL joins...

funny how you seem to have trouble grasping straight-forward concepts, or yet alone the ability to spell, but lets ignore that...

I was about to also point out the slight statistical error in your quote of a 1,000 pilots, but a dear colleague had pointed that out for us...

Yet he also pointed out the obvious fact that your battle is being lost, not ours... Pray, do tell, how do 32 cancelled flights, and the following day over 50, as well as the requirement to wet-lease from competitors, fare before the next share-holders meeting...

they must get weary of your smoke and mirrors too!

And speaking of which, here are some of the major acheivements made by REPA in just 6 months...

1. Support of, and from, ALL dublin based crews with regards to the -200 / -800 conversion deal, as well as taking legal action to avoid Ryanair executing redundancy upon said pilots
2. Admission to court numerous claims of intimidation, backed by numerous piles of internal correspondance
3. Protection from redundancy for Capt. John Goss by means of legal action
4. aiding requests from Dublin pilots for copies of their contracts, which as yet have not been disclosed by Ryanair
5. Protection of member identities despite numerous predicted attempts by Ryanair to expose and eliminate REPA members and in turn further intimidate the pilot body

5 major courses of action in just 6 months? Sounds like your lap-dog is looking more and more like a doberman...

You and your management thugs are bleeding Leo...

And as for your case on honesty...

how about updating your nifty little recruitment page on ryanair.com...

tell the truth for once...

PPRuNe Radar
1st Apr 2005, 20:27

No they haven't. Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking.

Presumably fair and reasonable T&Cs would be something those of us not allied with Ryanair would be privy to see and pass our independent judgement upon, as industry stakeholders and interested parties. Or are they secret ??

1st Apr 2005, 21:33
The T&C's in Ryanair would be great if only the year was 9 months long and you could retire at 85! I kid you not, however as we all know you have your first coronry in FR long before that.

2nd Apr 2005, 07:31
Come on Leo. You made the claim, so back it up. Tell us the conditions. There cannot be a pilot in Dublin who does not know them, but I suppose that those bad pilots are just so unreliable and they would probably tell mis-truths to our readers here.

Thank God for a font of truth and wisdom (that’s you Leo). So give us the “low down”. The non-Ryanair pilots, and especially the prospective Ryanair pilots, all want to know about the management generosity that was so wickedly spurned by trouble-makers in Dublin.

Don’t go all coy and “absent from Prune without leave” as tends to happen to you when the going gets tough. Make something up if necessary, but do talk to us.

2nd Apr 2005, 09:41
Leo Hairy Camel. You have made a claim about "perfectly reasonable conditions" offered by Ryanair to pilots in Dublin. In turn your claim seems to have been greated with a degree of derision. Surely this is one factual matter where it would be simple just to give the facts and let us all judge who is misleading who? Are you willing to do this? Otherwise it will look to me, at least, as if there is indeed something suspicious about what Ryanair is up to in Dublin. But then is that not what this thread is all about, namely the fact that Ryanair will mislead and manipulate both its employees and the English language in however cynical a manner as it feels necessary to meet its particular agenda?

2nd Apr 2005, 10:44
Can someone explain why this kind of information is not available to existing and future employees of Ryanair. Does this mean that the conditions of employment are not published, or that they are a secret, or what? What exactly is going on in this discussion. Can somebody give a short answer to those who are not informed, please.

2nd Apr 2005, 12:19

(Emotions and frusterations aside)

Ryanair works by effectively dividing its workforce as much as possible, exploiting personal interests and goals to achieve the best possible deal for the company.

Whilst in normal business practice this is indeed an intelligent and to some degrees acceptable manner of cost control, in Ryanair it is infused with intimidation and false promises which mislead the workforce, effectively giving Ryanair an unfair advantage.

In this way there are no fixed, universaly recognised set of terms and conditions. Every pilot's contract is different from the last, and whilst there is such a thing as a "pilots agreement", it has varying degrees of reference to the numerous different sets of employment contracts.

So, if you plan to join Ryanair, and feel you may be getting a good deal, you will find it quite impossible to check this as no one else will have quite the same contract as you.

And furthermore, as has happened in the past and is assured to continue happening in the future, terms and conditions once promised are often changed without the consent of both parties.

So chances are you wont be getting a good deal at all.

You can understand why, now, this kind of information is unavailable to both current and prospective employees, and what one of the major goals of REPA (http://www.repaweb.org) is.

2nd Apr 2005, 12:24
The reasons why they won't publish the terms and conditions are simple.
There is none. They change them as they see fit.
E.G. Last year, I had a pension of 2/3 final salary,
My medical was paid by the company, and done on an allocated day,not when I'm off or flying,
I had loss of licence insurance of 150000.
Last April, MOL told us that the company wasn't making money this year due to the "bloodbath",and they took it all from us with a memo.
We have him in court in Dublin,and we're going to get it all back.

2nd Apr 2005, 14:56
Well Leo H-C,

It never ceases to amaze me how much one froths at the mouth defending FR management, yet on the other hand trying to convince me that FR really doesn't mind that any of their pilots have asked for representation.

These "perfectly reasonable terms and conditions" that you speak of, perhaps you are in a much better position than I to point out, line by line, what exactly you mean by this. Perhaps then you could ask someone else in FR management to send a copy of them to all of the pilots, just so they all know what contract they work on. I wait with baited breath, as I suppose all FR pilots do too.

Mr. Hairy-Camel, seeing as you continue to purport to be a captain in FR, might you tell me what your recollection of the pilots' meetings in DUB have been like. As far as I remember, the pilots have asked for the strategy to be undertaken, and they continue to reaffirm their support. Maybe you can help freshen my memory if you recall differently. And please, let us stick to the facts, the constant barrage of pseudo-MOL-speak does nothing to help the arguments put forward, unless of course you have another agenda to follow....?

Thirdly, I am intrigued how an ordinary line captain such as yourself, has such intimate knowledge of an "ongoing criminal investigation." Having such access to the facts of the case, you may wish to enlighten us all so that finally you can put us all out of our misery about "IALPA/BALPA's bastard lovechild."

The ball is in your court (!) Leo, publish and be damned. The sooner the cards are on the table, the sooner we can all go home. Prove me wrong. I repeat:

REPA/IALPA/BALPA have not made any claim on behalf of FR pilots.
There is no threat of industrial action.
REPA/IALPA/BALPA have sought to clarify the terms and conditions under which FR pilots are employed.
This is at the behest of FR pilots, who have asked to be represented by these officials.

Now tell me why an ordinary FR pilot like you, should be so vehement in opposition?

2nd Apr 2005, 15:46
Thanks for the replies. I think I get it now.

I was attracted here by the article in today's Irish Times review "Who is Leo Hairy Camel?". It looks like he is now famous, even if he has yet to provide any answers to the questions!

Leo Hairy-Camel
2nd Apr 2005, 15:50
Hello Pprune Radar, and sure! A perfectly reasonable suggestion, except that due to REPA’s unrepresentative skullduggery, presentation here of the contract on offer may well be construed by some as sub judice and we all know and respect Mr. Fine’s honed instincts toward legal prophylaxis! It might well be argued that on an anonymous forum like this, who cares, but since you’re the moderator, you tell me! Better still, why not get one of the –200 pilots to tell everyone here how hardly done by they are? Don’t forget to remind them to fess up about the guaranteed Dublin base and no money up front for their conversion course, by the way. Ask them how much they make. Should be interesting.

2nd Apr 2005, 16:57
Leo H-C, what a pathetic effort to evade answering the questions you were asked. How can an offer to around 90 pilots of “perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet” be sub judice? What a useless excuse for refusing to back up your ridiculous claim.

If the offer is that good and Ryanair wishes their pilots to accept it, what possible reason could there be for hiding it from us? There is a reason, of course. It is because you know that it is NOT a good offer and the terms and conditions are NOT perfectly reasonable. In fact, the offer is actually manifestly UNreasonable. That is why you and your management cronies don’t want to reveal it.

Disprove what I say by telling all your eager readers. I see you have made it to the Irish Times. Congratulations! So maybe you will have even more readers than normal, all eager to see “the colour of your money”.

Finally, in your interesting attempt to divert the subject you make much of “the guaranteed Dublin base and no money up front for their conversion course”. This is for employees who are amongst the most long-serving in the airline! What is generous about that … oh, I forgot, it is generous for Ryanair in the light of their propensity to do “unexpected things” to their employees. (But you forgot to mention the mandatory payment of €15-18,000 if any union is recognised by Ryanair in the next five years, something which is certainly a lot more recognisable as Ryanair behaviour).

What a sad and ineffective toady you are.

3rd Apr 2005, 09:01
From someone entirely unconnected with the dispute, but shocked.

From http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=courthelpsryanair1112260811&area=news

An Irish judge has awarded Ryanair an injunction to prevent the destruction of web site user data in a court battle over the identities of its pilots who criticised the airline's working practices in an on-line forum for Ryanair pilots, according to The Guardian.

The forum belongs to the Ryanair European Pilots’ Association (REPA), a body set up last October by the two largest pilot organisations with members flying with the company, the British Airline Pilots’ Association (BALPA) and the Irish Airline Pilots’ Association (IALPA).
The Guardian reports that the site operators have been ordered not to destroy the codenames of the pilots who made the comments which, according to Ryanair, included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.

The unions yesterday accused Ryanair of attacking free speech.

From: The Guardian Online
Ryanair draws first blood in battle over pilots' web attack

Andrew Clark
Wednesday March 30, 2005
The Guardian

Pilots' leaders have accused Ryanair of an extraordinary attack on free speech in a high court battle over a website that contains anonymous criticisms of the airline by some of its employees.
The Irish low-cost carrier is trying to unmask the identity of pilots responsible for controversial remarks about its working practices on a message board run jointly by the British and Irish pilots' unions.

Ryanair has drawn first blood by securing an injunction from a Dublin judge that bans the unions from destroying the codenames used by pi lots on the Ryanair European Pilots' Association's website.

Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."

Pilots' unions are furious with Ryanair over its handling of training for pilots moving from older jets to new Boeing 737-800s, which have been introduced to modernise the airline's fleet.

Balpa claims pilots are being forced to pay the cost of retraining, with little alternative available to them other than redundancy.

Ryanair denies this. It says crew are merely being asked to sign five-year "bonds" which require them to pay back training costs if they leave the company.

It says the unions' website is being used to "threaten and intimidate" pilots who take up the offer of retraining and insists that it has not threat ened refusenik staff with redundancy.

Union leaders say confidentiality is crucial in the aviation industry. They point out that pilots use online forums to report safety concerns. If anonymity is jeopardised concerns may never be aired.

Ryanair has fought a series of battles over online message boards. Last year, an independent pilots' website deleted a thread containing comments about the airline following a threat of legal action.

Unions have attacked the airline for forcing trainee staff to pay for uniforms and for refusing to give them free in-flight meals.

Ryanair's director of personnel, Eddie Wilson, said the website had included posts from pilots suggesting "criminal activity" against the airline and its employees.

"We will not under any circumstances allow any of our pilots or people to become the victims of an organised campaign of intimidation," Mr Wilson said.

3rd Apr 2005, 09:23
Well, that just shows they are reading what we say.

So, read this MOL:





3rd Apr 2005, 09:40
I think the above articles are a bit misleading. In an article in yesterday's Irish Times (titled "who is Leo Hairy Camel") Mr. O'Leary made it clear that they were only looking for the names of particular pilots and he was quoted as saying:

"Are we looking for the other names? No. We couldn't give a shite."

Nontheless, this matter is becoming quite interesting for all sorts of reasons and I have now learned that this is apparently a "normal" way of doing business for Ryanair.

3rd Apr 2005, 11:26
POLICE only if you bring your own coffee :rolleyes:

3rd Apr 2005, 11:59

Hopefully not for long, I think things are about to turn!

3rd Apr 2005, 13:55
Just did a 'Whois' search on REPAWEB.ORG and I see the Domain name is registered to BALPA, and hosted by "kdawebservices.com" a UK base Hosting company.

Surely it would have saved all this Hairyarsing about if the designers had just registered it to an off-shore entity, and hosted it outside the jurisdiction? That would've saved us all a lot of wasted time and money.

3rd Apr 2005, 18:07
POLICE maybe so, but having coffee on board is the least of RYR's problems. I'd say with a shed load of shiny new -800's being delivered, and already being down some 70 or so crew members, I'd say their real problems are just about to start. MOL once said there would be some low cost airlines going bust in a so-called bloodbath. Growth is one thing. Sustaining it is another.

the grim repa
3rd Apr 2005, 19:55
you can really stir up a hornets nest,i thought you were pretty good at giving the other side.but on april 2nd at 1750 you bombed out my man.crying to the moderator is not so cool.
i do defend your right to say your piece even if i don't agree with ALL of it.keep posting.i am amazed by the onesidedness of this thread.leo seems to be the only one on the defence.

what if ryanair get the names of repa members,then through precedence,all anonymous websites even pprune are there for the taking.

7006 fan
3rd Apr 2005, 20:32
Although about 5 days ago, may I make a small response to DFC, which will expand to a generalisation so nothing personal DFC.
Many people go in through the front door, following an interview, expecting the job to be as described. When it does not turn out that way...what then? I worked for a firm once and was to work every other Saturday, confirmed at interview. Once I joined i was told I had to work every Saturday, which b##gred my weekend and lost me the most wonderful woman I ever knew.
But that is life today (could I return to my previous firm -haha, could I negotiate -response "there's the door, if you don't like it").
That made me bitter. Did not affect my professionalism, but it hurt. The Boss didn't give a s##t providing the money rolled in, staff welfare did not exist, no pension, health care etc but the Boss lived in a mansion and had 3 personalised cars, one for him, one for his wife and one for his daughter.
I just despise this face of business, it is the worst excesses of capitalism -not that I am a socialist!!
And Mr O'L before you say "our prices are only £0.25 one way", I have seen the website and tried to book at this price...no chance, must have missed the seat...everytime.


4th Apr 2005, 00:01
what if ryanair get the names of repa members,then through precedence,all anonymous websites even pprune are there for the taking.

Anyone stupid enough to supply a real name, or even a legitimate email address to a site like this...deserves the consequences.
Its what Yahoo was invented for.

4th Apr 2005, 00:26
Ryanair management appears sluggish in attempting to re-evaluate courses of action...

In this way we see Mr. Hairy-Camel cornering himself, proving even more than ever that there is no fixed, ideal terms and conditions offered to employees...

We also see how the actions of last year now ride out their effects, once the months have passed allowing job applications, interviews, offers, and training placements to take place...

Unfortunately for Ryanair, any reaction to be gauged in this industry isn't instantaneous, yet it does move with great momentum...

Pilots are leaving. Cabin crew are leaving. Yet new aircraft are arriving...

Any move today would be too little too late, and a storm is brewing which all within Ryanair will have to bear...

4th Apr 2005, 03:18
If ever there was a more effective demonstration of the continued relevence of unions then Ryanair is it...

By the way, most employment contracts contain a confidentiality clause to prevent the hired help from comparing notes.

Could somebody please confirm that the Ryaniar contracts do NOT contain a confidentiality clause?

If there is a deafening silence, it is obvious that they do contain said clause.

4th Apr 2005, 10:05
For those who wish to stay : keep fighting.

For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc...Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs. High demand as numerous airplanes are coming in on all continents. Perfect for improving handicap and learning kite surfing.

Obviously, keep talking to the good old names such as BA and Virgin as they're also hiring fast on outstanding aircraft. Conditions have toughened but coming from FR's crap, it still feels like heaven.

One way to start getting away from Ryanair's cr&p psychologically is to send CVs. You'll quickly see how fast replies come in and the sun will rise again. Ryanair is far from being THE only outcome in your career, there is so much better in so many other places...

Now, for those considering joining Ryanair, FORGET IT ! Wait maybe another 2, 3 or even 6 months for THE right job. Keep yourself fully available mentally and physically for normal employers. Once you've stuck one finger in this shite, it'll be harder for you to take it away.

The Trappist
4th Apr 2005, 10:45
Quote from Frying:
“For those dreaming to leave (most of you are, I know, I've been through that myself), think about airlines such as Etihad, Emirates, Cathay, etc. Beautiful airplanes, beautiful rosters, beautiful destinations and beautiful pay check and T&Cs”

Talking to the guys in the know at the Orval, the bottom line is “All that glisters is not gold”.

Apparently, particularly concerning the Persian Gulf Airlines, don’t lose sight of the high cost of living (food, housing etc. – the only thing that’s cheap is fuel), salaries that aren’t that much different to post tax EU charter airline ones, rosters that only look beautiful on paper (and get torn up just as easily) and leave slots that are cancelled at the last moment; to mention but a few. It would appear that non-national F/Os have very little prospect of promotion and if you are a non-national on standby, you WILL be called out in preference to a national – who’s probably out sand-surfing with his family! Or, just out for lunch…
As for beautiful destinations? Maybe one in a hundred!
P.S. Don’t forget you’d be living in a Moslem culture (Ramadan, Eid etc.)

4th Apr 2005, 12:38
It's interesting to see the old "sub judice" excuse wheeled out to avoid having to substantiate the comments regarding terms and conditions. Mr O'Leary seems quite content to make public comments (including the foul mouthed "couldn't give a sh..." on the identity issue) when it suits him, without being bothered by such legal details.

He is quite happy to splash details of, for example, Captain's salaries over the front page. If these conditions are in fact so reasonable, then why the big secret?

Joyce Tick
4th Apr 2005, 13:54

Au contraire - Ryanair is the perfect example of the irrelevance of having a union. A successful, growing airline, modern aircraft, well paid jobs for hundreds of pilots, no strikes - people flying off everywhere at reasonable (sometimes) prices....

And all this done without the help of a union of any sort - amazing!

the grim repa
4th Apr 2005, 14:04
AMAZING,thats an interesting word!

4th Apr 2005, 14:09
The Ryanair position on the conditions for Dublin pilots is obviously as manipulative as their claims about enormous earnings. In reality Ryanair pays poorly if you take an hourly rate - but makes up for that by requiring lots of work and paying as much in cash as possible. Hence, no pension, but money into your hand. Looks good, feels good, but turns out to be much worse than it appears.

It goes almost without saying that if they are claiming, as they do in every second press release, that captains are earning more than, say, 200,000 "something or others" that the correct interpretation is as follows: we have one captain who for a range of different reasons - trainer, special favourite, etc. - earned 200,000 + last year. This entitles us to claim that "captains earn up to 200,000" per annum. The fact that the other captains earn much less is not the point.

Ultimately, Leo has gone to ground (like Hansol, Ms Ozi, and the other Ryanair management types) because the reality does not support the propaganda. However, I too add my voice to Leo the missing: come back and stop hiding behind "sub judice" nonsense and justify your claims - tell us what wonderful terms were offered.

But he won't, because he can't. Lots of bluster, theats, self-confidence, etc. but with no supporting foundations - sounds like a perfect example of how Ryanair does business.

4th Apr 2005, 14:24

You have to wonder how much better Ryanair would do with the following :

1) Happy staff (unionised or not as the case maybe)
2) Professional Management - as opposed to the guttersnipes in place at the moment

I guess at this rate we will not find out.



Joyce Tick
4th Apr 2005, 14:51
Mr. Hicks

Well, how well do you want them to do? If they do any better, the rest of us will be out of a job as our airlines go bust!

4th Apr 2005, 15:08

I guess those you meet are the lucky few? Or could it be they are not 100% honest in their responses?


Your level of exaggeration is almost reaching that of a Ryanair press release. :) :)



4th Apr 2005, 20:12
Looks like Joyce Tick is the name to replace LHC, Ms turret etc etc

5th Apr 2005, 16:17
I don't care if it is Joyce or Hairy or Ozi or anybody... but can we have some answers? If not, then why don't we just ask them to go away when they come back for another go. Ryanair and those who make excuses for them must not be allowed to get away with making claims that never stand up.

Joyce Tick
5th Apr 2005, 19:07

No false claims that don't 'stand up'...

I never go by this airline - if I fly somewhere, I prefer to spend a little more money and go in a lot more style and comfort, BUT:

It is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff

I might condemn it for a rude and arrogant style that stems from the top but I must be fair and praise it for the reasons above. The pilots don't enjoy the privileged life of old that the likes of me enjoyed - but we must all move with the times.

..and once again, I am not Ryanair management, never was, and never use the airline as a pax.


5th Apr 2005, 20:13
Joyce, I was just inviting somebody, anybody, who is a Ryanair apologist - which you seem to be - to answer the question that was posed. You seem to want to be an apologist, but not to taken any interest in how they "do their Ryanair thing". Fine, that says all I need to know.

However, as somebody above has already said, Ryanair apologists quickly go to ground or divert the subject when direct or difficult questions get asked. All I am asking for is an answer. Thanks for telling us that you don't have one.

So, it must be over to Leo - are you still claiming sub judice? Leo you made the claim, give us the info. I have a bias, which is to believe that Ryanair have almost certainly behaved very badly in this matter. That can be successfully challenged by proving that what you said was true. Simple, eh?

5th Apr 2005, 21:52
With the greatest of respect,

"t is a successful airline and is expanding
It provides air travel for people who otherwise couldn't afford it
To places that wouldn't see passengers without it
It provides worthwhile jobs for many pilots, engineers and cabin staff"

Yes, but is it sustainable? I suggest after it has survived for about 50 years we will know the answer. Who knows what sort of interesting accounting is going on to make it profitable?

5th Apr 2005, 22:17
As an independent observer, I have yet to see any of the evidence that atse calls for from any side so what I see is;

One arrogant group shouting it's mouth off in public..........go down the average UK city high street at the weekend and you will see the same thing as the Pubs kick out.........but atleast they have taken drink!

Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa), said: "We shall vigorously defend our position in refusing to divulge names of pilots who discuss with one another their problems and aspirations."

So Jim McAuslan would see nothing wrong with the CAA inspectors having a public forum where they comment on the internal company issues that they come across in dealing with BALPA mambers in the course of their work.......or would he?

When BALPA members meet to discuss issues that affect their members they normally do so out of the public eye.........they don't stand in the street and shout for all commers to see.

Why do they not do the same for the REPA website........unless that had the motive of doing Ryanair some damage through bad publicity?.

But unions don't ever want to do public damage to the employer because that would be detrimental to the union objectives of fair pay and good working conditions.............unless the "union" had other motives.



5th Apr 2005, 22:47
DFC you are not an independent observer, as your entirely one-sided comments make clear. In fact, if you go back to the begining of this entire thread and count down about 20 posts you will find.... EVIDENCE.

It is in the form of a memo issued by Ryanair that delivers .... retribution. This raises an interesting question about what it is that is NOT put in writing.

All you did was to take the opportunity to do something that is very characteristic of Ryanair, which is to twist the situation into creating an opportunity to strike out at unions.

So, while we await the elusive "Leo the Unready" to appear and provide support for his wild claim, can you go read the memo and comment upon same please. That should provide be a good measure of the independence to which you lay claim. After all, the memo is either acceptable or not. Whay say you DFC?

6th Apr 2005, 07:26
I would supsect that our friend Leo has gone away to think up a new name and then he'll make another appearence :mad:

6th Apr 2005, 07:35
Yes, Comical Leo Hairy Hole has been conspicuous by his absence of late....

As a mere SLF, I would never consider flying with an airline which treats its people in such a way and makes such wild accusations about bona fide collective bargaining methods. The underlying stress which such behaviour must cause the flight and cabin crews is entirely prejudicial to flight safety and I wouldn't want to be on board an aeroplane under such conditions.

And yet it wouldn't take very much for this to be resolved amicably - it's just a shame that certain people are too thick to realise it.

Will RyanAir still be around in a few years' time if it carries on this way? In the delightful words of one of its hierarchy: "I don't give a shite".........