Ryanair launches legal action against pilots' union (merged)

[the grim repa]

ryanair cannot attract pilots,the terms and conditions are so bad and there is now a discernible pilot shortage.

[DFC]

atse,

My independence rests on the fact that I have no interest in either side's position. That does not prevent me from commenting about what I observe.

The post you refer to does not contain any evidence of a memo from anyone to anyone else. What is does contain is a claim by someone that what they have included is and I quote;

but hey its only a rumour right?

I could turn round and quote a memo from the Queen saying that she is going to give it all up and go live in a council house on benefit.......at least in the case of the Queen you can read the original print for yourself and make up your own mind about the story!

Part of the problem with Ryanair is that it has expanded from the airline where the pilots help load the bags if necessary to the current situation where pilots complain if they don't get free food on the flight deck but the Management has not moved it's position.

Do ATCOs get free food supplied?........if not then they must have the same argument as Ryanair Pilots have for free food?...........Don't ATCOs have unions?........

While I can't say I agree with how Ryanair handled the situation described by Shamjet - (Shamrock Jet - Aer Lingus?) one can see the point is valid - if you win an argument that a previous agreement is void then anything that was carried out as a result of that void agreement is also void.

No one likes the idea of an airline saying to a pilot that they must either pay for a type training or expect redundancy.......however pilots have brought it on themselves - how many pilots are only too willing to run off and pay for an initial type rating or even two just so as to be at the front of the job que..............................getting a professional pilot job has for many years now been more a case of how much money is in your pocket than how good you are (and that shows in the RH seat ;(.............all Ryanair do is use the willingness of pilots to walkover each other for a few more £ for it's own benefit.

BEagle is typical of people who have no interest in the situation other than to use it to try and put untrue safety fears in the public mind.

If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........if they are dismissed as a result of not flying on safety grounds, they will have a field day in court..........provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision.

I can't say that I agree with "Leo Hairy-Camel" has to say in some of his posts, I think his treatment by other posters on this forum is typical of almost every thred on PPRune - when anyone fails to agree with some posters, they are personally attacked in various ways.

Isn't that in itself intimidation designed to put pressure on people not to speak out or disagree with the established poster club...........definitely a case of doubble standards comming from professional people who calim to be doing something for people who are intimidated!

Every poster that as used derogitary comments about any poster here regardless of their views is doing exactly what thay complain MOL does...........in person without hiding behind an internet forum!

Regards,

DFC

[Carpathia]

Do ATCOs get free food supplied?........if not then they must have the same argument as Ryanair Pilots have for free food?...........Don't ATCOs have unions?........

Are ATCO's required to stay at their posts for up to, and over, 10 hours at a time with no possibility to obtain food? I believe 2 hours is the max time they can spend at their post at which time they are free to wander off to the canteen or whereever.

No one likes the idea of an airline saying to a pilot that they must either pay for a type training or expect redundancy.......however pilots have brought it on themselves - how many pilots are only too willing to run off and pay for an initial type rating or even two just so as to be at the front of the job que..............................getting a professional pilot job has for many years now been more a case of how much money is in your pocket than how good you are (and that shows in the RH seat ;(.............all Ryanair do is use the willingness of pilots to walkover each other for a few more £ for it's own benefit.

You got this right, self funding of type-ratings more than anything else is the curse of this profession. However, its not too late to fight back.

If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........

Unfortunately the decision not to fly being this easy only exists in your happy clappy world. FR and its ilk couldn't give a damn whether you're stressed or not and it certainly not a valid excuse to skip a flight. They can act like this precisely because if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........ .

Sure you can have your field day in court but it would take a brave man to take on the the airlines smear machine and all it entails before the judgement is made. Hard to put a family through that. No, its not right but it's reality and cowardice it certainly ain't.

provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision.

Like mentioned, if only it were so simple. I take it you're lucky enough to work for an outfit that provides the safety net of union back-up should you need to make this decision. Yet another good reason right there to have a strong union.

ryanair cannot attract pilots,the terms and conditions are so bad and there is now a discernible pilot shortage.

Without the best news I've heard in ages. As usual the worst outfits suffer first and worst in times of short. FR not being the only dublin based airline so afflicted! Time to make hay while the sun shines.

[beardy]

BEagle is typical of people who have no interest in the situation other than to use it to try and put untrue safety fears in the public mind.
Every poster that as used derogitary comments about any poster here regardless of their views is doing exactly what thay complain MOL does...........in person without hiding behind an internet forum!

Hmm

[atse]

DFC, relying only on the opening part of your reply here are my conclusions:

1. You have an interesting notion of wha comprises independence.

2. You have decided that the memo does not merit serious attention or belief. You avoid my challenge to comment on the memo based on quoting the ironic "but hey its only a rumour right? Too clever by half. Too obvious by half too.

3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.

4. You have again, like all Ryanair apologists, used the opportunity to avoid difficult questions and to open a string of attacks on other fronts so as to divert attention from your failure.

Reality: you do not want to comment on the memo and you are not independent.

P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?

So far those who won't/ can't answer simple questions in case that might embarrass Ryanair: Joyce Tick, Leo the Reticent, DFC.

[smartarse]

Wow, this thread is the MOST magic for some time! I haven't seen so much piss and wind for a while. Not having commented here for some time let me add just a farthing's worth (anybody else remember a farthing?).

DFC - the Queen does, in effect, already have state housing aka Buckingham Palace, what's more she certainly receives State Benefit aka the Royal List - somewhat grander than most, so you've started the right rumour - what a man!

More importantly from the cosiness on my distant perspective, reading what bollocks appears to be levied upon you; I say,'Come on Ryanair pilots rise against all the crap you are fed (or not fed!), the invective of Hairy Camel means nothing if you stand together, better out of service than servitude!!'

And the rest of you should help them - otherwise YOUR airline will be next!!

[Joyce Tick]

atse - just remind me- what was the original question you wanted answered?

[DFC]

atse,

3. But you are prepared to rely on a post on the same site taken from a newspaper in order to attack a BALPA official.


What you seem to miss is that I can go an read the newspaper to confirm the accuracy of that post first...........evidence........... I am unable to confirm the existance or not of said memo.

I have not attacked the official, I merely pointe out some inaccuracies that I believe exist in his statement.

P.S. Do you REALLY believe that it is not a real Ryanair memo?

What I believe is up to me. Without evidence it is entirely reasonable to be minded that either the memo does not exist or that the quotation was embelished or perhaps that it is all true.......only the people who have access to said memo know.

---

smartarse,

Go on, you'll be telling me next that several top UK companies have their customer service centres in places like India where people are paid a small fraction of European wages, have no real worker rights and have no protection under EU law!

:D

Regards,

DFC

[atse]

DFCWhat I believe is up to me. Evidently. Your independence allows you to chose what you believe errr.. selectively but independently. This is a bit like being trapped like Alice "in Wonderland" - or should it be in "Ryanair Wonderland"? I think your pedigree is reasonably clear at this stage.

Joyce Tick

The original question was posed by somebody to Leo Hairy Camel after he said the following about some so-called Ryanair “trouble-makers”:Merely a few Dublin based -200 pilots who threw their collective rattle from the cot when they decided the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions of their transfer to the -800 fleet were not to their liking. This was followed by chorus of those who were rather keen that good ole Leo the Hairy might clarify what those “perfectly reasonable terms and conditions” actually were. All followed by silence on the part of Leo the Not Available. I just joined in with those who await an answer. It is a good question. Do you know the answer?

(The reason I included you in my “can’t-won’t” list was that you replied directly to a post of mine above saying “atse ‘No false claims that don't 'stand up'’...” and then failed to address the question that I was talking about… geddit?).

[zehutiman]

While I'm new to this forum, having read such a long thread, it seems things are no different in Ireland than in the US.

As for DFC, the rest of you just need to ignore him. He's obviously an apologist and, in fact, probably works in management FOR Ryan.

DFC, you know how I know you're in management? Because, only mgt. would condemn pilots (who are happy to go the extra mile and throw bags to help their company prosper in the early goings) for expecting to share in the prosperity of their company. Mgt never seems to understand that making sacrifices for one's company is done willingly in the beginning, but once the company is cruising, why shouldn't an employee expect more, especially in light of their earlier sacrifices? God knows, Executives expect to be properly compensated, dont' they?

I also love your comment: "If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault"

Yeah, I'm sure every pilot that's had a heart attack in the cockpit knew beforehand that he was going to have it. More mgt crap along the lines that the pilot "got what he deserved."

And DFC: "What I believe is up to me"?

Puhleeze. You're not in grade school anymore....surely you can do better than that.

Lastly, DFC, why can't you understand why a pilot wants to be fed while on duty? It's easy. Unless, of course, you've never flown scheduled-service or, you've been in mgt so long and the lobotomy was so well done, that you've forgotten what the job entails.

Mo

:)

[Aloue]

DFC, I held that very memo in my hand when I read it. It is real. The effects were real too. The one thing Ryanair does is to DELIVER on its promises of retribution.

But, judging from your response I doubt you would accept that my evidence here is as reliable as the facts you read in a "verifiable newspaper". What a strange attitude.

[Joyce Tick]

atse

- you is right my son, I don't know "what the perfectly reasonable terms and conditions” were.

At a guess though, they would go along the lines of:

"You toe the line, pay for your -800 rating, and don't cause any grief, and we'll pay you a living wage, a good wage even, if you continue to work real hard..."

plus

"Cause grief - and we'll do everything we can to make life so unbearable, you'll leave..."

Am I right or wrong?

[DFC]

Aloue,

Send a copy of the memo to the Sun. They would jump at the chance to have a go at Ryanair...........then we can all have a read!

-----

zehutiman,

As a current professional pilot I am well aware of how things work.

My point regarding the baggage loading was in the main pointing out that Ryanair Management has not moved it's position despite the changing fortunes of the business.

However, while not making water available is illegal, there are very few companies that feed employees while at work. Don't forget that we are talking about pilots who wake up at home every morning and get home after every day's work and who fly short haul flights.

OK the schedule is amazingly tight. But are Pilots above bringing a packed lunch to work?

Since Ryanair at best have some Snacks and cold drinks onboard, would you seriously expect special catering ordered in for every flight so that the Pilots can eat it........or is it just for some flights - which ones then?

The whole problem with this whole shouting match is that to the outsider most if not all the arguments are rubbish!

Don't complain that there is no free food (see above about packed lunch) when the rules regarding breaks at work are in legislation.............30 minute break after 4 hours seems to spring to mind?..........make a proper case that people can see as justified and not simply "I'm above making sarneys in the morning".

It is rubbish like that and the intimidation of peple who may not share one's view of the matter that tarnish any true grevience that may exist.

At the end of the day we will never see a strike because BALPA and IALPA and REPA know that there would be absolutely no public support - The fire men got little enough of that recently and MOL is making it clear to the public that these pilots get 130,000 a year so who is going to think they are hard done by then?...........and that is why he says such things during interviews!

BALPA have to get the Ryanair thing in check - they have Easy sorted - :ugh: and the only danger sign on the horizon of senior pilot bliss is a Ryanair sytle management system in an established UK airline...............walk in Willie. :E

Why don't a few -200 pilots call the bluff........after all they would get a nice redundancy package if they were an elderly long serving Captain and if they are as good as they say, and there is such a shortage of pilots, they must be guaranteed a job elsewhere..............I know that if I was in that position and conditions are as bad as one is lead to believe, I would jump at the chance to escape with a golden handshake and would not for one minute bother wasting time with arguments about having to pay for a new type rating!

Regards,

DFC

[Aloue]

DFC. A rather ineffective and revealing response I must say. But at least you have spotted a new arrival and provided him with lots of bait in the hope of taking the debate elsewhere and scoring the same ideological points as usual.

Your unwillingness to comment upon actual Ryanair management behaviour is very telling. You are part of the evil empire.

[Sunfish]

DFC - one of the nastiest little bits of work I have seen for some time..

"If pilots are stressed prior to flight the IAA/CAA requires them not to fly........if they ignore the IAA/CAA requirements then it is the pilot's fault........if they are dismissed as a result of not flying on safety grounds, they will have a field day in court..........provided they have the backbone to actually make that safety decision."

Even though I am not a professional pilot, I have been in such a situation myself (responsible for 20 million litres of fuel in an oil termianl) and I know what happens to people who stand up to companies over government rules and regulations.

Your attitude demonstrates that you are either absolute niave, totally stupid, or you exhiit the cynical psychopathology of Ryanaire management.

My guess is the latter.

[maxalt]

We (aviation docs) use four historical cases as the only known ones in cardiac/flying accident analysis. An almost insignificant (statistically speaking) number.

Do you know of more? Well Pete, thats a bloody silly question when you don't back it up with names and dates. I may be familiar with only a small constituency, but even in that tiny group (Irish Airlines) I know of at least three cardiac arrests - two of which resulted in the death of the pilot at the controls, and a third unfortunate who languishes today in Persistent Vegetative State (guess who he worked for!).

So are you suggesting that there was only one further case? WORLDWIDE? Insignificant statistically? Well give us the numbers, you obviously have them at your finger tips... on a pro rata basis...pilot cardiac arrests versus general population?

OK the schedule is amazingly tight. But are Pilots above bringing a packed lunch to work? Oh...of course not! But man does not live by packed lunches alone...unless he wishes to acheive the physique of a tub of lard, and the health consequences associated with it.

At the end of the day we will never see a strike because BALPA and IALPA and REPA know that there would be absolutely no public support Who really gives a **** WHAT the public think? Are you suggesting they'd have more sympathy if we all earned 10K a year and lived on a council estate? Bollox.

Why don't a few -200 pilots call the bluff........after all they would get a nice redundancy package if they were an elderly long serving Captain EHHH??? Are you feckin dreaming? Micko is short of pilots...please explain to me why he'd PAY his people to leave?
Sheeeeeeesh.....!! :hmm:

[Irish Steve]

Oh...of course not! But man does not live by packed lunches alone...unless he wishes to acheive the physique of a tub of lard, and the health consequences associated with it.

Very true.

A few other sobering thoughts.

Even if the aircraft does carry some limited refreshments, they are probably off limits to the crew for flight safety reasons, in the same way that when crew meals were supplied for flight deck crew, they could not be identical, to avoid the risk of both crew possibly being incapacitated.

So, is it safe for the crew to use on board supplies?

Also, is it acceptable for crew to be forced to pay the through the roof prices that are charged for in flight refreshments, and do the crew want the quality etc that's on board?

Now of course comes the issue that really makes this complicated. I defy any crew member to get off the aircraft, get into the terminal and get to an ACCEPTABLE outlet, purchase something suitable, take it through security and get back to the aircraft, and then prepare for departure within the time available on most turn rounds. There's still the requirement to actually consume what's been purchased!!!!

It might have been possible pre 9-11, the chances of it being so now are almost zero. So, what are crew to do?

Eat nothing for their entire duty period? Dangerous, for all sorts of reasons.

Bring their own supplies? Possibly risky at certain times of the year, given the problems of keeping things cool and therefore safe.

Looks to me like this might just be a little more complex and serious that certain people would like us to believe.

Now why does that not surprise me:E :E

[minuteman]

DFC

As a "current professional pilot," you could very well be in a position to verify the FR "memos" existence through colleagues, peers, contacts etc. You could also remind yourself that several national newspapers covered the story on the "memos" late last August...

Yet with the stance you take, you allow the argument to descend into the same old "free food, free coffee" stuff that has been heard time and time again.

This is not the reason why this thread exists. This is not the reason why MOL has elected to take IALPA to court!

As an aside, the argument over pilots calling in fatigued is one that exists in every airline. A pilot doesn't have to work 6 sector days or multiple early starts or 900hrs a year to be fatigued at any one moment in time...however, bean counters do not see it that way!

The issue at hand is these "perfectly reasonable terms and conditions" that we have yet to see. I for one don't believe we'll ever see them - and in the meantime, we'll have FR bashing, pilot bashing, union bashing, and the real nub of the topic will never be addressed.

There are many potential MOLs out there, with perfectly reasonable terms and conditions they would love us all to sign up to, doesn't matter what airline or where. Without a collective and united voice, you will never stop the rot. The FR pilots have made a decision, they have my full support.

[zehutiman]

I defy any crew member to get off the aircraft, get into the terminal and get to an ACCEPTABLE outlet, purchase something suitable, take it through security and get back to the aircraft, and then prepare for departure within the time available on most turn rounds. There's still the requirement to actually consume what's been purchased!!!!

Irish Steve, not to put you on the spot, therefore anyone may please answer, but is there no practice by the Captain (or FO) to step off the a/c and get some food for his crew, regardless of the delay it may cause? What latitudes does one have and, how much does it vary by airline over there?

Thx.

Mo

[atse]

Joyce Tick says… "Cause grief - and we'll do everything we can to make life so unbearable, you'll leave..." You too must be Ryanair management. The idea that to make peoples “life unbearable” is acceptable is so much in keeping with Ryanair values that it looks like a “slam dunk” to me. One can only speculate what is mean by “causing grief”. Perhaps things like looking for the entitlements promised when one was offered the job?

"Right or wrong?" says Joyce. Well you are right - it is such a typically Ryanair response. And never an answer to a straight question if it would mean criticising Ryanair in any way. Looks like this is the "litmus test" for Ryanair management, its fellow travellers, apologists and ideologues - no criticism of Ryanair, even when pretending to be "independent" observers.

And zehutiman, that contains the answer to your question - as one of the Ryanair apologists says above, you have a legal obligation not to turn up for work sick/fatigued/etc. But, as everyone in Ryanair knows only too well, you discharge that legal obligation knowing that if you… "Cause grief - and they'll do everything they can to make life so unbearable, you'll leave...". Food + delay = grief (forget legal obligations). The answer to your next question is "no, the Irish Aviation Authority has no means of protecting you (and does not demonstrate much interest is doing so either)".

[DFC]

Maxalt,

Salad won't make you fat, is good for you and does not have a problem with transport. :)

Why doesn't someone go and check out what the rules are regarding providing breaks to employees. There are mandatory breaks under EU law as far as I am aware. That is where one will find the answer to both issues - a break away from all tasks long enough to feed onself at one's own expense.

Who really gives a **** WHAT the public think? Are you suggesting they'd have more sympathy if we all earned 10K a year and lived on a council estate? Bollox.

Most people don't care where you live if you have a good case..................if you earn less than the average wage for doing a complex job then people will see the merit in your argument................if people are lead to believe that you are one of the country's top earners (brown envelopes aside) and moan about not getting free food or that as they visualise it - your sitting down zooming over the sky back breaking job is toooo hard then people will have no support.

If Ryanair pilots strike at Dublin for union recognition, will for example the brothers in the fire crew support their brethern who are being denided worker rights?.........not likely!............If baggage handlers on minimum wage and maximum hours strike then people can understand and may support the action.

The merit of your cases does not change but MOL is sowing the seeds in the public mind of fat cat salaries and easy lifestyle so that any disruption that can be pinned on pilots who will get no sympathy from the travelling public because of the propaganda.

EHHH??? Are you feckin dreaming? Micko is short of pilots...please explain to me why he'd PAY his people to leave?
Sheeeeeeesh.....!!

Because under redundancy rules, if the job no longer exists (they no longer can use the aircraft you fly) then the company can make you redundant.........but the redundancy requires compensation to be paid which depends on length of service etc..........thus he can either pay you to go.......or pay for the training required to keep you......................................................... ..........or if he thinks that he will get away with it........get people to pay for keeping the job that it would cost him money to get rid of.

That is why I think that regardless of the merit of the cases, the way in which the whole matter is being dealt with is simply perfect for on person - MOL.

----

zehutman,

There is no time in the current schedule - 20 minute turnround - park, paperwork, brief, push, gone........hardly time for another P.

The times are so tight that there was a complaint some time ago from Dublin ATC that pilots were calling clearance delivery for the outbound clearance while still taxiing inbound to stand!..........may not have been company policy but it shows how the crews felt they had to do things to minimise time on the ground.

The inability to get anything decent in the terminal is why I put forward the packed lunch idea.

-----

Mike,

After to have been to Spain and back, where do you go on the next sector? :)

Regards,

DFC

[chikenscanfly]

Ladies and Gents, Please, can we stop the bickering...

This discussion is not about whether or not we're complaining about no food onboard... if anything, thats the last thing any RYR pilot would worry about!... So lets move on...

and for the record, RYR never provided crews with food onboard...Rather they increased the salary slightly to compensate for this and instructed crews to make their own arrangements... this happened years ago...

DFC, your comments are mixed but still admittantly shed some truth on the situation... turnarounds are tight, with little or no time to prepare for the next outbound sector if anything 'out of the ordinary' should suddenly occour...

your right to note that MOL is posting the image of union fat-cats upon every press release Ryanair has ever publicised... it is his ultimate goal... but if things should ever get as far as industrial action, it won't be for any pay increases under the currrent situation, it would rather be for a more surprisingly modest demand that all employees in Ryanair be treated with greater respect, and be better considered by management...

sounds like a whimpy demand? perhaps it is, but if people are ever driven to be willing to all put their jobs on the line for such a cause, it screams volumes about how MOL and his cronies have been running the shop...

finally, yes, if MOL had a choice between keep people on the job or pay em off, he would choose to tell them theyre gettign the best deal paying for their own training to keep the job, and avoid paying them a penny shuold they be made redundant... Perfect example would be the BUZZ / Ryanair TUPE Agreement...


RYR management misleads its employees... they promise one thing but delivers exactly the opposite as they see fit. They dillude people by quoting extrodinary figures without the facts to back them up. The contort the truth and restrict open communications amongst pilots, giving different contracts to everyone to keep people from being able to see where they exactly stand. And finally they intimidate people openly, upholding a culture of fear, 'keeping your head low', so nobody will ever have the guts to question their actions and stand up for their own rights...

Sure, you can pack up and leave. But that takes 3 months at best to accomplish and causes great upheaval to your way of life. And then the danger exists that such management style is picked up by other airlines in their own bids to remain competitive against such 'stiff competition'...


Until last year the only reason people stayed was because the pay was enough reward to keep people from worrying about it too much. Now MOL has cut our salary and conditions in a time of the company's greatest growth ever, and we have absolutely no say in it.


Need examples of all that was said above? Just consider the fact that the only reason why the Dublin pilots have dragged Ryanair to court is in response to a threat of bringing the case that far by MOL himself. The Dubli pilots simply asked to see their contracts of employment themselves, a request to which the company has taken this course of action...


DFC, the truth is Ryanair is not the best paid company out there. They simply warp the numbers, make us believe things they see fit, forge our opinions of how the market really looks. And to think the best way round this is simply to go to work, get paid, and go home, leave ryanair out of your life, is a little naieve...

especially when nowadays a typical Ryanair day, in duty period, is stretching to as much as 12 hours, not including time before and after work.

and espcially when considering that your home life is run by what you receive from work and how you feel about your work. Whatever ryanair decides will always affect your home life, no escaping that.

Apathy will only lead to your own detriment, however the tables turn.

[maxalt]

Salad won't make you fat, is good for you and does not have a problem with transport. I don't live on rabbit food.

Why doesn't someone go and check out what the rules are regarding providing breaks to employees.Why don't YOU check it out instead of spouting a bunch of arse? The EU directives specifically exclude transport workers!
DOH!
There are mandatory breaks under EU law as far as I am aware. Unaware - obviously. That is where one will find the answer to both issues - a break away from all tasks long enough to feed onself at one's own expense.Now that you've been shot down in a ball of bright orange flames I expect you'll apologise to us all?
No?
Why did I think not.

Most people don't care where you live if you have a good case..................if you earn less than the average wage for doing a complex job then people will see the merit in your blah blah blah.Why do you not get it??? I don't CARE!

If Ryanair pilots strike at Dublin for union recognition, will for example the brothers in the fire crew support their brethern who are being denided worker rights?Wrong again! If the pilots are in the same umbrella organisation as the FireMen then the strke will spread. Not that we think its necessary. Pilots are strong enough to ground the company on their own, thanks.

The merit of your cases does not change but MOL is sowing the seeds in the public mind of fat cat salaries and easy lifestyle so that any disruption that can be pinned on pilots who will get no sympathy from the travelling public because of the propaganda.Once again...who gives a care? Please explain to me what difference it should make to my greivance if joe petrolpumper (or whoever) doesn't support me? I'm fascinated to learn your reasoning.

under redundancy rules, if the job no longer exists (they no longer can use the aircraft you fly) then the company can make you redundant.........but the redundancy requires compensation to be paid which depends on length of service etc..........thus he can either pay you to go.......or pay for the training required to keep you......................................................... ..........or if he thinks that he will get away with it........get people to pay for keeping the job that it would cost him money to get rid of.Stretching it...................................................aren't you.
.................................................the job exists, according to them..........................you can spend millions arguing it in court if you choose.............................................who knows who'll win.............................and statuatory redundancy is a pittance matey...............................which is all you're entitled to.............................................lets not bother..............................................unionise instead!!!

That is why I think that regardless of the merit of the cases, the way in which the whole matter is being dealt with is simply perfect for on person - MOL.BOAC

[Arkroyal]

DFC,

You really don't understand the way this Loco thing works, do you?

As maxalt points out, the transport industry is exempted from just about all of these well meaning EU directives. Breaks, max working week........all dreams for the airline industry.

I'm not with FR, but another following sadly in its footsteps.

You try working four or six sector days with 25 to 30 min turnrounds, right up to, and sometimes through the legal FDP. I stress, as you seem to miss the point. There is NO time built in to these days for ANY kind of break at all.

Do it every day for six days. Then take two off, starting at 11pm, and back to work 0600 on day three.

Even if you can get to the shops to buy fresh food it will be either cold, or processed junk.

It is not impossible to provide crew food. Other airlines do it, (and, btw, I'm not asking for it free). The will is simply not there.

I don't believe you are FR management, just someone who lives in the old world, where gentlemen ran and worked for decent airlines; and passengers paid a realistic price to fly.

Days gone by, my friend.

[CV Donator]

Arkroyal, would that be the Orange order

[Big Tudor]

The original draft from the EU for working time regualtions for aircrew did contain a requirement for a break following 6hrs of continuous duty. Oddly, it was removed in the final version.

[Right Way Up]

<<Arkroyal, would that be the Orange order>>
I doubt it, apart from reserve periods, Easy do not work 6 & 2, and also still have crew food.

[sky9]

As I understand it any company has a duty of care towards its employees. That duty include that you are properly fed and watered or have time set aside for you to get proper food.
Either the company provides you with food or it provides time on the turnround when you are free from all duties to get properly fed and watered.

Most companies accept that they would rather you keep at work therefore provide you with a meal. What they cannot do is expect you to work up to the maximum duty period but not provide you with food.

[Faire d'income]

There are mandatory breaks under EU law as far as I am aware.

As pointed out earlier transport workers are exempt from the various EU working time laws. I wonder who lobbied successfully for that.

The merit of your cases does not change but MOL is sowing the seeds in the public mind of fat cat salaries and easy lifestyle so that any disruption that can be pinned on pilots who will get no sympathy from the travelling public because of the propaganda.

Indeed one of what appears to be his favourite newspapers the Irish ( notso ) Independant published an article stating recently that pilots are 'limited to 18 hours work a week' . This was presented as indesputable fact, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the source of the lie. My duty time last year was just under 1700 hours which is about the national average.

Because under redundancy rules, if the job no longer exists (they no longer can use the aircraft you fly) then the company can make you redundant

That is over simplistic. If you can demonstrate that you can do a job that some else junior to you is still doing you could have a case for constructive dismissal.

That is why I think that regardless of the merit of the cases, the way in which the whole matter is being dealt with is simply perfect for on person - MOL.

Dunno. This reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Monty Burns goes broke. He discovered too late that his advisers were all yes-men. The only people this case suits are those in the courts where Ryanair are becoming frequent visitors.

An airline where the staff pay more than the customers to fly can only have trouble ahead.

[hec7or]

Just read your post


"As I understand it any company has a duty of care towards its employees. That duty include that you are properly fed and watered or have time set aside for you to get proper food.
Either the company provides you with food or it provides time on the turnround when you are free from all duties to get properly fed and watered."

ho ho, ha ha ha, hee hee hee!!

what a laugh!

You've certainly got the necessary sense of humour for this industry.

You were joking were'nt you.

MOL for Pope anyone?

[sky9]

hec7or

No I wasn't joking. The sick joke is that so many people are so afraid of their management that they are prepared to put up with the flagrant breach of the law. The result of not eating properly is a low blood sugar level and possible collapse hardly what you need in the crew of an operating aircraft.

It is however a bit "off topic" but a good reason why people need a Union or effective Association. The strange thing about some current airline management is that they appear to make the case for pilot representation better than the pilots do themselves.

The best way for you to defend yourselves just now is use a fax to communicate with your managers and send a copy to the IAA.

[FRying]

Your only solution is to stick together and STRIKE !!!

No blablas, just strike and make your demands clear. Strike over a long period of time or everyone of you guys will be running on miserable T&Cs in less time needed to even realise what's happening.

The image Jo Public is receiving of you is not important and should not be considered. Also, WHO IS THE FAT CAT HERE ? If there is one, that's MOL and a handfull of associates. Not you. I'd love to know how much is on his bank account in cash and stocks. You'd be weeping before you miserable plastic sandwich thinking about it.

Have no fear, just act as MOL does : be hard.

Good luck to you.

[DFC]

Your only solution is to stick together and STRIKE !!!

Absolutely...........but is there the backbone to do it, will BALPA/IALAP provide strike pay to REPA members and will it acheive anything?

Regards,

DFC

PS - Why does maxalt sign his message "BOAC"?.........does BOAC not object to this being a moderator and all that? :D

[the grim repa]

striking is not the answer.it is the final course of action in dire circumstances.this is best pursued through the courts.

[DFC]

This whole argument about unions is apparently taking an unexpected twist!!!

Ryanair have gone to the courts to have the identity of people making posts on a web site revealed.

Everyone has jumped up and down and shouted about how bad this is and how a union is required to sort the whole thing out.

Now we hear that the Irish teacher's union ASTI, is watching very carefully what happens in the Ryanair case because it is hoping that Ryanair are succesfull. !!!!!

If as the teacher's union hope Ryanair are succesful, the ASTI can use the precident to close down a site that they claim is posting defamatory statements from students about tecahers in Ireland!

However, we see that in France, there is a strike today in protest about companies using workers from outside the EU when EU workers are available.

In Ireland today there is a "protest" by nurses regarding conditions.

Come on the complainers - have a "protest" - stop whinging and do something.........or eventually you will simply be regarded as boys that call wolf. (Ryanair bashing in PPRuNe terms).

Don't forget that all the Ryanair pilots paying UK tax are paying a part of the wages at the heavily unionised (3 unions) longbridge plant this week.........yet another case of a workforce that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce.

The goose that lays the low cost golden egg may peck your ass incessantly but are you really going to kill it?

Regards,

DFC

[atse]

DFC what a strange set of attitudes. You want some kind of action, you talk about "strike pay" and you talk about not "killing the goose that lays the low cost golden egg". A change of orientation in your posts perhaps?

You seem to have missed the often repeated point that all Ryanair pilots want is to be treated properly (you know, civilised, rational, and non-ranting management behaviour in an airline where undertakings mean what they say). Specifically, Ryanair pilots wish to work in an environment in which they will not be subject to implicit or explicit threats and vindicative behaviour.

Nobody wants to go on strike or to damage Ryanair. Even those bad union people don't seem to want it. How come you have had an attack of the "let's rush to the barricades"?

Interestingly your tone very much reflects the word from Dublin about sentiments expressed by great leader MOL at yesterday's early morning management meeting. You are either very well informed, or an interesting coincidence has just occurred.

[the grim repa]

dfc,

no one wants to see ryanair destroyed.we want to see it led successfully.not by a bunch of bluffers and bullies.
we are taking action and it will take time.we have plenty of that.

[FRying]

Exclusive legal action will only lead to grim compromise as it is not representative of pure and absolute justice. The outcome in a trial is the result of clout, PR, etc... That applies especially to industrial trials (as opposed to civil issues). They are very much teinted by influences acting in the shade of the court room. And MOL and his flock are battling hard to get the pin pointing in THEIR right direction.

A mixture of industrial action and industrial trial is way more efficient. In any case, you must not allow yourselves to get mislead by fear. What you need to fear is a situation whereby power is not balanced as it will ruin every single one of you in a longer run.

Also, a strike will not destroy Ryanair. Ryanair has way enough cash at hand to face grounded aircraft for weeks.

What a strike will do is make shareholders very, VERY unhappy and demanding explanations and results from the board of directors. Pressure on them will be immense. Nobody\'s expecting a strike and the share price would surely get hurt for a while.

This pressure on MOL\'s shoulders would be even greater as orders for an extra 70 acft has just been launched.

On the opposite, you pilots would feel a great pressure relief watching the scene. And negociations would finally be efficient, both-sided and creative for both sides for a long while. You would not be feeling stuffed anymore and you would feel respected again. On top of this, you\'d probably have more time for yourselves (family, leisure...) should negociations lead to better rosters.

BUT ! Rest assured operations would keep going. Ryanair would keep existing. Maybe without MOL but it would live. It\'s just too strong to go down the drain.

Good luck.

P.S. There\'s no reason why you should lose where many have won before.

[maxalt]

DFC, BOAC = Bend Over Again Christine.
MOLs favoured posture for his pilots.

[JW411]

With almost half a century of flying behind me and having spent quite a lot of that trying to "organise" pilots my advice to you is that you have no chance of getting a total walk-out in Ryanair.

There are too many nationalities and bases involved and I very much doubt that you have all developed such an esprit de corps that a 100% militant desire to walk out between all of the bases exists.

MOL has cleverly built up a devisive society and is obviously counting on the fact that if "the Irish" won't do it the "Belgians will".

Even if you were to organise a total walk out what do you think would happen then? The European Union has now been expanded to 25 countries and I am quite sure that 737 qualified pilots from some of those new countries would not hesitate to take your jobs (I have already seen this).

The saddest thing that I have ever witnessed was a bunch of ex-Continental guys dressed up in their uniforms at Denver holding up anti-Continental banners in front of the terminal whilst all the new guys walked straight past them - 3 years after they had lost their battle.

If you want to beat MOL, you will have to be very, very clever. Indeed, you will have to do it quite quickly for I saw him on Continental TV recently promising that he was going to retire in three years time for sure.

I had a boss like that once - he sold all the aeroplanes overnight and retired as a billionaire!

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, how do any of us know that Ryanaire's performance is sustainable? My B.S. detector has started to twitch.

DFC you say "that can't compete in todays efficient and cost effective industry but expect that the public should support a product that does not sell and costs too much to produce."

I am afraid I have seen many companies in many industries undercut their competition, claiming that they have found new business methods and strategies that make them more "cost competitive" than other merket participants.

They generally make life miserable for their competitors until they eventually go spectacularly broke.

It then transpires that one of the following "strategies" was in play all along.

- "buying business", this is a convoluted game where you convince yourself that you can sell below cost, betting that your major competitors will go bankrupt before you do. You can then dominate the market and make up your losses.

- "Milking", a form of what is euphemistically often called "harvesting". This is where you bludgeon your staff, suppliers and regulators into giving you their products and services at less than their cost of production.

This is a form of bettting that other companies will not pay your staff more and lure them away, and that your suppliers will not have better companies to sell their goods to. The usual management rationale for this game is "If I can get big enough, soon enough, then my suppliers will have no option but to supply me, and my staff will have no one else to work for".

There are infinite variations and combinations of these two processes, but companies that do this eventually change or go under.

Ryanaire's attempts to get pilots names appears to be an extremely thinly veiled attempt to find people to victimise. My view is that if their entire business strategy is to bludgeon their staff into submission this way, then they are not a stable company to work for in the longer term.

[Idunno]

Maxalt drew attention in his post of April 1st to the plight of non-unionised workers in Ireland. In particular he mentioned Turkish building workers. Those of you who aren't based in Ireland might be interested in the latest on the issue...it is illustrative of how non-unionised workers will be treated in extremis.

All hell has broken loose in the media here. It has emerged that these workers have had a total of thirty (30) million euro with-held from them and lodged in a Dutch bank account which they can't access. The workers are currently on strike, and (as one supporter at their protest outside the Irish parliament today noted) they didn't even have the bus money to get to the rally!

The buiding project these guys were working on was (get this) a government road project, and the coalition government minority party (the 'Progressive Democrats') had long sung the praises of how great the Turkish workers were, and how great the Turkish company was, and how market forces were exposing the weakness of the lazy/overpaid Irish workforce! This came in the same week as a report that shows Irish workers are working longer hours on average than ANY other european population.

The naked greed of the modern Capitalist system is being laid bare for all to see in this lovely little country - this is what O'Leary stands for. Exploitation.
As Sunfish points out, the ultimate destination of this race to the bottom, led by the grasping avarice of Big Business, is the enslavement and impoverishment of working people.

All those who bash unions and aid this project are satans little helpers.

[FRying]

JW411, I understand your point eventhough I do not agree with you.

First of all, I think a well-organised movement can ground around 90% of aircraft through all Ryanair bases. It only takes one pilot going on strike to keep the airplane on the ground. And even if the airline manages to find another pilot, disruptions will be great for this specific flight and for others. THere is a snowball effect which is absolutely uncontrollable. You find that in many cases before, 50% of staff walking out caused 80% of flights cancelled over a week. It always starts well and gets more complicated with the hours (resting time of those who flew, pilots who flew on the first place and decided to join into the battle after 1 or 2 days into such movement, etc...)

Second, Ryanair has become so big it would simply be impossible to recruit, train, control such a number of pilots. Especially as so few people in Europe want to work for Ryanair, apart from rookies. This was not the case for Continental which was a decent airline. You won't build a pilot's population from rookies who leave the airline at the first whistle's blow from the market (i.e. BA, Virgin, etc...)

I think for once, power is in the pilots' hands. Never have so many pilots joined a union and figures are increasing. The situation IS evolving and is much different from that 1 year ago (except T&Cs have gone more complex and worsened since then).

[bentover]

I hear that ryanair are taking the 8 most senior pilots off the roster in the hope that the rest will go on strike and therby nullify the court action being taken against the company. is this credible.

[atse]

It is credible. With Ryanair anything is credible. (However the idea of provoking a strike is unlikely since everyone has been saying for some time that a strike is neither necessary nor appropriate).

Also the information you provided is not correct. The correct version will take a little more time to surface. It looks like one pilot has been suspended (on pay) and that a number of the most senior and the most junior have received letters from Ryanair.

Another period of "fun and games with Ryanair" looks likely to commence. This is starting in the normal way: something adverse happens to one (as a warning) and the others are given unpalatable (or disgraceful) choices against a close deadline. One to one "bumping into in the corridor" and "doom laden" meetings will occur. Old formula, new manifestation!

P.S. Should this not be part of the existing thread on Ryanair? If we have a new post for each new Ryanair affront to civilised standards there will be one every couple of hours.

[Kaiser Sose]

Will the camel be put behind bars.
Its not over till the fat lady sings.

High Court on Tuesday, buy your ticket now.



http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0414/ryanair2.html

[sky330]

Once upon a time,
in a small country the other side of the channel pilots thinks they had a strong case of non respect of their contracts by the management of their company.
They sued the company. After several years, the company lawyers using a lot of "time gaining" technique, the company lost the trial.

Obviously, the pilots were very happy except nothing changed. The company still was not respecting both contracts and court ruling. So the pilots return to see the judge, but it took a long time, company lawyers still using the same techniques. And when decision should finally have been taken, it didn't matter anymore because company have issued new contracts since several months.

But of course, lawyers fees have nearly bankrupt the small pilot association.
Several months later, another dispute arrives, this time pilots go the airport and read their newpapers in the crew room waiting for the dispute to be solved.
The next day everything was solved maybe not to the satisfaction is everyone but at least to the acceptance of both parties.

STRIKE guys, don't wait, solve the problem one and for all !

[GGV]

According to this mornings Irish papers the accusation is that Ryanair is in contempt of court as a result of the injunction obtained at an earlier date by the Ryanair captain. He is quoted as saying in his affidavit that:...... he believed the real reason for his suspension was to subject him to further bullying, harassment and intimidation. It was also meant to send out a message to other Ryanair pilots that anyone who challenged the company or attempted to enforce their lawful rights as employees, as he had done, would be made to suffer by the company and may have their employment put in jeopardy. Long time Ryanair observers will no doubt feel that there is a lot of truth in what he has had to say.

[BEagle]

"In a statement (Thursday) evening, Ryanair said it had no knowledge of any court proceedings (on Thursay) nor had it been notified of any. 'Furthermore we do not respond to trade union leaks or tip offs to RTE,' the statement added."

He really is adding to his fan club, isn't he? That's RTE insulted for reporting the truth.

[atse]

Nope BEagle, it is worse. In fact it is a complete misrepresentation of the facts. I have been told that on the evening radio show on RTE yesterday evening their claim generated a comment from the RTE presenter to the effect that the information came from a reporter attached to the courts and not from any trade union source. And, as for the denial of any knowledge about the matter, it turns out that the Court – not the pilot’s legal representatives – were responsible for delivering the relevant documents to Ryanair + the two named Executives, and obtaining the necessary signatures for same. Only after those documents were delivered, and signed for, could the action before the judge have taken place.

Ryanair’s famous economy with the truth demonstrating itself once again!

Where are DFC, Hairy thing, etc, etc. now that we need them to interpret and clarify things for us?

[Gigginstown ERC]

I'm all for animal rights, but I wouldn't have a problem with a certain camel getting neutered next week.

[PIS]

A short update to those unaware of have the FR flightpay(sectorpay) works.. It is different from base to base whether it is in mainland Europe, Irland or UK.

In the UK there are 4 different pays
0- 3.5 blockhours = £45
3.5 - 5 blockhours = £80
5 - 7 blockhours = £130
7+ blockhours = £185

This is all after tax for a days work depending on how many blockhours you are SCHEDULED to do. It doesn`t matter how many duty hours you do it is only scheduled block hours that counts.

When this agreement was reached 5 years ago you would normally be doing 5.5 hours days to long days of 7.5 hours. But after MOL predicted the "bloodbath" this all changed. Not what you are beeing pay because the agreement is still the same. But the way rostering is done.
It is today the norm to do a 6 hours 50 min or 6 hours 55 min days. Or if you finally do a more than 7 hours day it is usually between 8 - 9 hours 30 min for the longest day.
The 6 hours 55 min days could be a 4 sector day where you do 2 sectors of 2 hours 5 min, Treviso the last to to Poiters in france are 1 hour 30 min down there and strangely only 1 hour 15 back. The flighttime on the way back from Poiters is mostly between 1. 15 and 1.20 so we WILL be late but FR has just save 2 times £55.
On some sectors they have even changed turnaround time from normal 25 min to 30 min. And then taken 5 min of the blocktime so it will be a 6.55 day instead of a 7 hour day, thus saving money
Over a month this means that compared to before the "bloodbath" we are working atleast 1 hour more FOR FREE per day.
Average sector pay is about £22 per hours. With about 15 working days a month you are working 15 hours for FREE or taking home £22 times 15= £330 LESS than before A MONTH or £3960 less a year AFTER TAX
FR has offered there pilots a 3% payincrease on there BASIC PAY. Which for a first officer on £28000 a year is £840 or £70 per months BEFORE tax. But you are taking home £330 less per months on your flightpay which for a SFO is more than half your take home pay.

Hope there is not to many numbers in here. But FR pilots have taken a HUGE paycut over the last year allthough MOL will off course tell you otherwise

[Gorgophone]

quote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
We (aviation docs) use four historical cases as the only known ones in cardiac/flying accident analysis. An almost insignificant (statistically speaking) number.

Do you know of more?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I do. So you tell me yours and I'll tell you mine. Cite references, dates, journals please. Otherwise I will not believe that you are an "aviation doc."

[Miles Hi]

Ryanair denies pilot's contempt claim

19 April 2005 12:25
Ryanair has told the High Court there is no foundation to allegations by one of its pilots that the company is in breach of a court order preventing proposed disciplinary measures against him.

John Goss of Yellow Walls Road, Malahide, Co Dublin is seeking to have Ryanair Chief Executive Michael O'Leary and the company's Head of Flight and Ground Operations, David O'Brien, jailed for alleged contempt of an injunction issued earlier this year.

Counsel for Ryanair told Mr Justice Michael Peart that there had been no breach of a court order.



Counsel for Mr Goss said they needed extra time to consider two affidavits delivered to them by the airline.

Mr Justice Peart adjourned the matter until Thursday.

[Dutchie]

Please take note of the article regarding CAL in another thread. It shows that proper union support can help against management harassment!:ok:

[Gigginstown ERC]

Proper union support ?

Dutchie, I think Capt Goss is getting very good union support.

You are trying to compare IALPA and the recognised CAL MEC who were thrown a consolation crumb / sacraficial lamb in exchange for $213M a year in concessions.

The members of the Gigginstown ERC will be in court tomorrow and we will see how humps the camel has left after the judge hears the case.

[ALLRIGHTFORTHEHEIGHT]

If anyone is going to go to the "TOWN HALL" crap in Dublin monday and tuesday,please say nothing and just listen dont fall for any of the old tricks from MOL and the gob****es,they are in trouble and they know it.:suspect:

[bentover]

If so what went on.

[BBT]

MOL was constrained and produced same old nonsense (not for turning our MOL). Foolish. But no stupid personal attacks or overt threats this time. But the twit based his entire pitch on two absolute lies about IALPA (delay and "union recognition") that have long since been explained to those involved.

Lots of management types there, but a poor pilot turnout, despite IALPA and management encouragement to attend. (IALPA even sent a text message yesterday encouraging attendance!).

They still have not got an idea of the scale of their problem.

[ALLRIGHTFORTHEHEIGHT]

I hope the pilots wore their "HARD HATS" just in case they were going to get it "RIGHT BETWEEN THE F**kING EYES" like the last meeting in the WHITE HOUSE :ouch:

[BBT]

The latest news (from the Tuesday Town Hall meeting) is a reminder that Leopards never change their spots.

So guess what? - a reduction in some sector payments was announced - the old "hit them back" approach has returned after last nights outburst of appearing to be reasonable. Apparently the bad people in IALPA did it ... euh... made MOL do it. This man really is quite weird and frightening.

Apparently more management people than pilots turned up. The saga moves on to the courts tomorrow.

[RAT 5]

I have no personal interest in it either way, but a european lawyer advised me some years ago, when my employer tried the same thing, that an employees conditions of service can not be changed, detrimentally, i.e. reduced, in a unilateral manner. It must be done via mutual negotiations. However, it will take someone of the workforce to sue for breach of contract to correect the issue. If no one complains, officially, then the imposed changes will stand.
Surely, an imposed reduction in sector pay is a reduction of income and must be agreed by both parties. Considering all the other items we've heard about being deducted, e.g. uniforms & medicals, tea/coffee etc, this sector pay, and all those previous removals, should fall into the category requiring mutual consent. However, no-one sued about the earlier deductions and see what is happening now. Every little peice is being sliced off, unless someone says NO!

[GGV]

RAT 5, what an excellent summary of how it works.

But why does it work? It works because, in the absence of effective third party representation to stop it, it is up to each individual to stand up for their rights. The one thing this thread makes clear is that those who stand up in Ryanair in the slightest way become targets. It also explains why people appear to accept outrageous Ryanair management actions that are clearly illegal.

Thus it is that pay, conditions, pensions, etc. get taken away from Ryanair employees and nobody seems to complain. What is probably the most amazing thing of all is that there still are a few Ryanair pilots who think MOL is really open to "doing a deal". The man only deals if he is in a corner - he knows that he can always decide to ignore what he negotiated later!

[Aloue]

I really miss Leo Hairy Turret Ozi-Hansol, etc. Yes... I'm ashamed to have to say this, but it's true. My Prune existence has emptied of its meaning and I have deep sense of dread that they are spending their time on trying to run an airline somewhere.

Please come back. We need your sense of the ridiculous. Who could do other than admire your boundless ability to find methods of sprouting propaganda in the most difficult of circumstances? Is there no one left to demonstrate respect, even craven grovelling, on the subject of the genius of "Great Leader MOL"? What are we to do at this time of international loss? Am I the only one to suffer pangs of remorse that this might be a craven retreat by many of the colourful walk on characters in our little drama?

You are (almost) forgiven for your errors of omission and those "little distortions" that are the hallmark of a particular airline. I particularly miss the happless errors and excised posts ...

Any chance we could negotiate for your return (promise, absolutely promise, not to use a union of any description for the negotiations - I know they are bad and a source of utter economic and personal destruction for all those who come into contact with them). That was why they were taken to court in the first place, right? I'm sure they deserved it.

BTW, anybody know what has happened with that legal effort against the union that led to this thread in the first place?

[GGV]

Ryanair today (Tuesday, 17th May 2005) confirmed that following a round of direct negotiations with its staff in the month of April, it had implemented a 3% pay increase backdated to 1st April 2005.
Interesting that "direct negotiations" with pilots in all bases led, amazingly, to exactly the same outcome! Interesting outcome to "negotiations" that were totally uncoordinated and involved unelected and self-selecting "representatives". (Dublin pilots, who are very bold people, apparently do not qualify for the 3%. Presumably the money is needed to help pay Ryanair's fines and legal costs).

Ryanair are also doing their usual game with figures and say that average Ryanair salaries are just the best in the business. Who, just who, do these people think they are kidding?

Clearly somewhere in Ryanair is to be found an idiot looking for a village.

[atse]

The headline in today's Irish Times is "Ryanair could have to pay out €44m to pilots". This appears in an article which is with another one on the court case yesterday on Captain Goss.

I'm sure some technical whizz kid will be able to post it here in due course. Things are certainly getting interesting!

[worldwidewolly]

Irish Times: May 19th 2005

Ryanair could have to pay out €44m to pilots

Siobhán Creaton, Finance Correspondent

Ryanair could potentially face a compensation bill of up to €44 million if the 170 victimisation claims taken by its Dublin-based pilots were to be upheld by a rights commissioner. The first of these cases is expected to be heard in mid-June.

The complaints, some of which have been lodged by the airline's most senior pilots, stem from Ryanair's action in seeking to persuade the pilots to accept terms and conditions attached to their training to fly its new fleet of aircraft.

The initial complaints were first submitted by the airline's eight most senior captains to the Labour Relations Commission last November. Many of the pilots have made multiple complaints.

In the past week, fresh victimisation claims have been made on grounds of the airline's refusal to give the pilots a pay rise. Ryanair said on Tuesday that it had awarded a 3 per cent pay increase to its staff with the exception of its pilots.

It said that the increase, backdated to April 1st, had been granted following "direct negotiations" with its staff last month.

It claimed that the pay rise was awarded to staff who negotiated directly with the company. The pilots are members of the Irish Air Line Pilots Association (Ialpa), which is part of trade union Impact. Ryanair claimed it withheld their pay increase because they had chosen not to negotiate with the airline.

The victimisation claims will be heard by a rights commissioner who has the powers to award a maximum settlement equal to twice the complainant's salary where a claim is upheld.

Ryanair has claimed that its team of pilots are among the highest paid in the airline industry and earn up to €130,000 a year.

Each of the pilots could stand to win compensation of up to €260,000 if successful.

Sources among the pilots suggest that up to 70 further victimisation complaints may yet be taken.

The Labour Court is to investigate a case taken by the Ialpa on behalf of some Ryanair pilots relating to their terms and conditions of employment.

The investigation will centre on the pilots' right to training by the airline, their contracts and rights where redundancies are sought.

The Labour Court findings are binding.

Ryanair is claiming that the new Industrial Relations (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2004 cannot be used to enforce trade union recognition against an employer, such as Ryanair, which does not engage in negotiations with trade unions.

The Labour Court accepted this submission but noted that the legislation does provide a measure of protection to employees when pay and conditions are not freely determined by collective bargaining.

Capt John Goss, the pilot who secured an injunction restraining Ryanair from conducting disciplinary proceedings against him pending a full court challenge, was among the group of the airline's eight most senior pilots to lodge the first victimisation claim.

The airline is also fighting a number of separate legal challenges related to its ongoing dispute with its pilots.

These include High Court proceedings it has taken against Ialpa accusing it of conducting an "organised campaign of harassment and intimidation of Ryanair pilots" through a website set up last year for its pilots.

Ryanair has claimed the website, www.repaweb.org, had been a conduit for intimidation of pilots considering flying the airline's new Boeing 737-800 series aircraft to be based in Dublin later this year.

"In addition to threatening and intimidating Ryanair pilots, this website has also published specific threats ... which have been the source of a formal complaint to the Garda Síochána," it said.

[Camel Killer]

Not a single toy left in the cot this morning:D

* JG cleared for take-off this PM :{

* No camel friendly second terminal:{ :{

* A caller to RTE's 5 -7 live programme (the drive time news slot) complaining about the lack lustre Ryanair share performance and demanding that O'Leary spend more time looking after the business and less time shooting his mouth off. :{ :{ :{

Is this the beginning of the end? Concerns at the board table about failure to follow legal advice? Where will it all end?

[sky9]

to quote "737"on the "Monopoly thread"
The Ryanair Ops Manual was ammended on March 24 2005 to remove all mention of MOL.

The CEO/Accountable Manager is now listed as Mr Howard Miller.

"Me wonders" if the IAA had anything to do with it?

[BillHicksRules]

Sky9,

A quick look at the Ryanair website shows MOL as CEO and Millar as CFO.

Cheers

BHR

[FlyingIrishman]

Hold the fort lads and lasses, they need you more than you need them despite the latest developments!!

[Finman]

OK, I'll bite........what developments.......? Is there something we should know?

[FlyingIrishman]

No, just MOL continuing being his usual charming self rather than accepting that he's lost this war.

[Finman]

oh go on.....you're such a tease - like what?

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

complaining about the lack lustre Ryanair share performance and demanding that O'Leary spend more time looking after the business and less time shooting his mouth off.
Well gee whiz, Camel Whacker, maybe its just me, but I would have thought that record passenger numbers, profit way beyond even analysts expectations, and share price knocking on 7€ is a fairly good indicator of reasonable performance. Perhaps you’re just one of these folk that are hard to convince…educationally challenged perhaps. If all of that fails to convince you, perhaps it’s the very last line in Ryanair’s most recently published financial report that might sway you. On the website under investor information, in the unlikely event you’re interested.

Shareholders’ Funds at March 31, 2005 have increased to €1,727.4m compared to €1,455.3m at March 31, 2004.
That’s 1.727 billion €uros in the bank, boys, cash money. Don’t know about you, but 1.727 billion is a lot of money to me. Who knows, maybe Ryanair should buy Aer Lingus, I hear its shortly to be flogged off.

Hi Aloue,
My Prune existence has emptied of its meaning
Only your Pprune existence? I think not. Given your remarkable inclination to gloat without reason, I’d venture a lot more that that has fallen by the wayside. It matters not, though, since you amount to little more than white noise. The sort of meaningless drone so enamoured of your fellow screeching howler monkeys who think for a moment that the current Aer Lingus pilot-funded sideshow in the courts is anything more than a pimple on the arse of progress.

I’d hold off on the champers cork for a while yet, lads. It ain’t over till the fat lady sings, and our gal hasn’t even left the dressing room yet.

[FlyingIrishman]

Welcome back MOL/DOB/WB or whoever you claim not to be this week, let the battle commence!

[Aloue]

Given your remarkable inclination to gloat without reason Well, well L-H-C welcome back. Its sooooo nice to have you around again. All those hours on a Bank Holiday weekend hanging heavy enough to tempt you to post again?

Nice also to see that you mean to continue as you started. No gloating in my post, accusations yes, gloating no ..... but you have said it, so it must be true. Endless assertion of what is not true does not make it true. I think things are not going to change much now that you are back. Clearly you failed the retraining.

What was it that sent yourself and your acolytes into hiding so suddenly? Was it legal advice .... or, perhaps it was the repeated question asking you all to condemn intimidation of Ryanair employees by certain members of the management. Any chance of an answer to that question?

Thinks: I wonder how he will fudge the issue without answering the question?

[16 blades]

I wonder how much LHC is going to have left in the bank AFTER all the lawyers have been paid.........?

16B

[Sunfish]

Profit performance shows an increase in ancilliary revenues of about 58 million. That accounts for all of the operating profit increase. That means the operating profit margin is the same as it was before.

Ancilliary revenues now account for 16% of the total.

Looking down the report it appears that the money Rynair has earned has been invested in New Aircraft.

So you are still on the voyage guys and gals. Either Ryanair will break every other carrier and then start returning some cash to its investors, or someone else will step in and "outryanair' ryaniar, in which case you will never see a cent of your investment.

Sorry, but my guess is the latter.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

What was it that sent yourself and your acolytes into hiding so suddenly? Was it legal advice
Nope. The sheer jaw-dropping tedium of your meaningless mantra.
asking you all to condemn intimidation of Ryanair employees by certain members of the management. Any chance of an answer to that question?
First of all, Aloue old dear, I don't know what you mean by "you all". As I've written before, I'm not management, merely a Ryanair line captain with, evidently, a different view to your own as to the way Ryanair does its business. You might think it craven and odious that I admit to admiring MOL and having tremendous respect for what Ryanair has achieved in an unimaginably ruthless market, but your views on that subject are as uninteresting to me as the rest of your tawdry canon. Intimidation you say? Bollox, I say. An appropriate response to an intolerable threat to the success of our business, and thereby, my employment. Its a question of perception, and you've made your lunar left views plain on many occasion. You're clearly not in possession of the facts, but will be, I dare say, shortly.
I wonder how much LHC is going to have left in the bank AFTER all the lawyers have been paid.........?
One hell of a lot more than IALPA, darling... one HELL of a lot more.

[minuteman]

Well Leo, seeing as for whatever reason you decided to rejoin the "sheer jaw-dropping tedium of [our] meaningless mantra," might you now be in a position to answer this:

REPA/IALPA/BALPA have not made any claim on behalf of FR pilots.
There is no threat of industrial action.
REPA/IALPA/BALPA have sought to clarify the terms and conditions under which FR pilots are employed.
This is at the behest of FR pilots, who have asked to be represented by these officials.

Now tell me why an ordinary FR pilot like you, should be so vehement in opposition?

Having taken such a keen interest in observing what goes on, might it be possible I bumped into you in the Four Courts recently?

Perhaps seeing as you are obviously not on a 25 minute turnaround today, you may be in a position to stop the "sheer jaw-dropping tedium of your meaningless mantra" and actually give us all a straight answer.

You seem to have the courage of your convictions, so let us get down to the nitty-gritty. What have you got to be afraid of? A "disciplinary process"?

[sky9]

Ancillary Revenue up to 208.5m e
Depreciation up only 1%
Aircraft Rental costs up by 21.9m to 33.5m
I would suggest that the profits are due to sale of new aircraft and leasing them back on operating leases.

And btw how much of the money in the bank is from fares received and costs not incurred?

What are the analyst saying about the above?

[maxalt]

Hey Leo, is it true that when your load factors started to slip late last year, and you realised you didn't need all those shiny new Boeings, that you asked Seattle to push back delivery? And that they gave you a two word answer to do with sex and travel?

I guess they didn't like your comments about how you raped them on the deal!

Haven't you learned yet Michael - your big mouth just keeps getting you in lots of trouble. Why don't you stop digging? You're already half way to Australia.

[the grim repa]

hows life in liverpool?

[A330driver]

When Senior figures cash in their chips, it's usually a sign for others to do likewise:

http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0607/ryanair.html


Sounds like Leo is about to jump a sinking ship.

[Danny]

Sorry, far too much confusion now with contributors being unable to decide which thread to post their views. To make it simple please use this thread only: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171893

:rolleyes: