Air Arabia - all you need to know about it (threads merged) [Archive] - Page 2

W Weasel

8th Oct 2007, 13:06

Captain Basic

Less then 1000 hrs in type = 21,000 Dhm/mo

1000 to 2000 hrs in type = 23,000 Dhm/mo

More then 2000 hrs in type = 27,500 Dhm/mo

Housing = 12,000 Dhm/mo a dedicated housing allowance so pilots who would like to benefit from the advanced pay can utilize the full amount in one lump sum.

Transportation = 1,000 Dhm/mo

Total fixed pay between 34,000 – 40,500 Dhm/ mo

Seniority increase = 500 Dhm on completion of one year and 1000 Dhm for every successive year to a maximum of 9,500 Dhm/mo

Education Allowance Total allowance up to a max of.100,000 Dhm. (75,000 Dhm for Outside UAE) for an academic year for all children within the age group of 4 to 18 years. There is no per child limit.

Flying Allowance Day flights will be paid @1 time the credit block hours allowance &Night flights will be paid @1.5 times the credit block hours allowance.

Credit Block Hours = Scheduled Two Sector Flight Time rounded to next highest hour. A Sharjah-Sana-Sharjah two sector trip has a scheduled block time of 2:35 Sharjah-Sana and 2:30 Sana-Sharjah for a trip total of 5:05. The credit block hours is 6 hours of pay.

Night Pay is the flying that commences between 1830- 0630 local no matter what time the trip ends. In the Sana, Yemen case above, the credit block hours is 1.5 the day credit block hours or 9 hours of pay in this Sana example if it departs between the hours designated as night. Approximately 39% of Air Arabia flying hours are night flying.

Flying Allowance Rate 1- 25 hrs = 30/hr; 26 -50 hrs = 60/hr; 51- 75 hrs = 120/hr; 76+ = 240/hr

Duty pay @ 10 Dhm/ actual flying duty hour

Day off Flying @ 280Dhm plus flying allowance rate

Annual Leave = 45 days

LOL, Death Insurance, Medical Insurance remains the same.

Sick and Personal Leave remain the same.

Annual Bonus = Unknown, but 2006 was 3 months.

Stock = Unknown, but last restricted award was 250,000 shares to captains with progressive vesting dates.

Synopses: The difference between flight time and credit time is apx 7.2% based upon Air Arabia’s schedule.

The differential between day and night pay is fair. The incentive for reduced flight times for the crew is large with the according benefit. The difference in potential pay is great but it depends upon the pilot’s personal desires. The pilot has the ability to choose between large salary and quality of life.
Should a pilot choose to maximize his/her pay the potential is great. A pilot can choose to fly 100 hours of night flights. 100 hours of actual flying is about 107.2 credit hours of flying.

Night flying is a 50% premium or 161 hours for pay. Using the productivity pay scale the pilot will earn 25,890 Dhm (750+1500+3000+20,640 Dhm.) plus duty pay (apx. 1,500 Dhm.) Adding that to the basic (for a 2,000+ Captain) the monthly salary would be 68,000 Dhm per month. The same flying in day would be 55,000 Dhm.

Caveat: there are several areas that must be addressed. The scenarios above are maximums to a degree. They do not take into account under flying which would allow the pilot to accumulate more credit block hours per actual hour flown. It also assumes the night legalities are adhered too but all in all it is a good example. It is possible to make more per month but the minimum is fairly accurate for a 100 hour flying month. Air Arabia pilots fly the legal maximum yearly = 900 block hours. The credited hours can be considerably higher.

Under flying is that amount of flying that is actually done below the scheduled flying. In other words in the Sana case above a pilot flying the 5:05 trip is paid 6 hours.

Assuming it would be possible (legalities etc) to fly this trip all month a pilot would be able to fly this 19.7 times in a month (20 times) and get paid for 120 hours. Should the pilot fly the flight in 4:30 per trip his pay is still 6 hours; however, he would be able to fly this 22.2 times a month. This would pay him 133.3 hours a month or a 13 hour premium for under fly. If this flying were all night flying (once again assuming legalities) the credit time would be 200 hours for pay. A pretty heavy pay check at 77,000+ Dhm!

AED (Dhm) = 3.66/$1US

No I’m not management, nor a recruiter.

Hope this helps but if it doesn’t, well there is always Martin-Baker!

Burners and Out!

inverter

8th Oct 2007, 13:46

Hey WW,
would you be able to shed some light on the F/O's package??
many thanks
INV

PHAROH

8th Oct 2007, 14:36

That was too fast

W Weasel

8th Oct 2007, 18:24

F/O Basic

Less then 1000 hrs = 15,000 Dhm

1000 to 2000 hrs = 16,000 Dhm

More then 2000 hrs = 19,000 Dhm

Housing = 10,200 Dhm (122,400 per year) a dedicated housing allowance so pilots who would like to benefit from the advanced pay can utilize the full amount in one lump sum.

Transport = 1,000 Dhm

Total fixed pay = 26,200 - 30,200 Dhm

Seniority increase = 350 Dhm on completion of one year and 500 Dhm for every successive year to a maximum of 5000 Dhm.

Education Allowance = Total allowance up to a max of.75,000 Dhm. (50,000 Dhm for Outside UAE) for an academic year for all children within the age group of 4 to 18 years. There is no per child limit.

Flying Allowance Day flights will be paid @1 time the credit block hours allowance &Night flights will be paid @1.5 times the credit block hours allowance.

Credit Block Hours = Scheduled Two Sector Flight Time rounded to next highest hour. A Sharjah-Sana-Sharjah two sector trip has a scheduled block time of 2:35 Sharjah-Sana and 2:30 Sana-Sharjah for a trip total of 5:05. The credit block hours is 6 hours of pay.

Night Pay is the flying that commences between 1830- 0630 local no matter what time the trip ends. In the Sana, Yemen case above, the credit block hours is 1.5 the day credit block hours or 9 hours of pay in this Sana example if it departs between the hours designated as night. Approximately 39% of Air Arabia flying hours are night flying.

Flying Allowance Rate 1- 25 hrs = 20/hr; 26 -50 hrs = 40/hr; 51- 75 hrs = 80/hr; 76+ = 160/hr

Duty pay @ 10 Dhm/ actual flying duty hour

Day off Flying @ 240Dhm (?) plus flying allowance rate

Annual Leave = 45 days

LOL, Death Insurance, Medical Insurance remains the same.

Sick and Personal Leave remain the same.

Annual Bonus = Unknown, but 2006 was 3 months.

Stock = Unknown, but last restricted award was 150,000 shares to F/Os with progressive vesting dates.

Synopses: The difference between flight time and credit time is apx 7.2% based upon Air Arabia’s schedule. The differential between day and night pay is fair. The incentive for reduced flight times for the crew is large with the according benefit. The difference in potential pay is great but it depends upon the pilot’s personal desires. The pilot has the ability to choose between large salary and quality of life.

Should a pilot choose to maximize his/her pay the potential is great. A pilot can choose to fly 100 hours of night flights. 100 hours of actual flying is about 107.2 credit hours of flying.

Night flying is a 50% premium or 161 hours for pay. You do the same math as for a Captain.

Caveat: there are several areas that must be addressed. The scenarios above are maximums to a degree. They do not take into account under flying which would allow the pilot to accumulate more credit block hours per actual hour flown. It also assumes the night legalities are adhered too but all in all it is a good example. It is possible to make more per month but the minimum is fairly accurate for a 100 hour flying month. Air Arabia pilots fly the legal maximum yearly = 900 block hours. The credited hours can be considerably higher.

Under flying is that amount of flying that is actually done below the scheduled flying. In other words in the Sana case above a pilot flying the 5:05 trip is paid 6 hours.

Assuming it would be possible (legalities etc) to fly this trip all month a pilot would be able to fly this 19.7 times in a month (20 times) and get paid for 120 hours. Should the pilot fly the flight in 4:30 per trip his pay is still 6 hours; however, he would be able to fly this 22.2 times a month. This would pay him 133.3 hours a month or a 13 hour premium for under fly. If this flying were all night flying (once again assuming legalities) the credit time would be 200 hours for pay. A pretty heavy pay check at 55,000+ Dhm!

Assumption is for F/O with over 2000 hours time in type.

AED (Dhm) = 3.66/$1US

Sorry, but the original question was for a Captain.

Pharaoh, actually the answer is almost 3 days old. Pretty slow for PPrune:-)

243.0

Burners and Out!

W Weasel

8th Oct 2007, 20:30

I am sorry to all of you who have PMed me but I simply can not answer all your questions individually. I will answer the bulk of them on the forum so others will not have to repeat the question.

Upgrade: this seems to be the most repeated question. Yes Air Arabia has a good upgrade program. The time to the beginning of the process is from 14-20 months now but I am sure it will decrease soon (see aircraft acquisition below.) The length of time depends on the pilot (assuming you have the minimum qualifications for upgrade – they do not bend and you will be passed if you don’t have them.) System knowledge is stressed but most guys have trouble “being a Captain.” All those other things only Captains think about every flight. You know, Cabin Crew, ground handling, connecting flights, take time to tanker or not etc.

Pilots: currently there are about 150 pilots but there should be about 500+ by 2012. Of the approximate 75 Captains 30+ were hired as F/Os (1 new Captain was released just today and several more are in the pipeline.)

Aircraft & Acquisitions: the company currently has 10 A-320s 77K (170,000 lbs.) MGTOW. The plan is for a fleet of at least 34 aircraft. The exact type has not been released but it will be either 737s or 320s. Watch the news at the Dubai Air Show for an announcement – my guess.

Stock: Many have asked me about my mention of the stock and restricted grants. Air Arabia did what most companies do for senior executives and gave restricted grants to only the pilots (and senior management.) This is a windfall for the pilots but as with any such incentive it has a maturity date. The grant was free. Captains received 250,000 shares and F/Os received 150,000 shares. The current stock value is 1.52 which makes this a 380,000 Dhm “present” to captains and 228,000 Dhm “gift” to F/Os. 60% matures in 3 years with 100% in 5 years but it cost nothing. Whatever the stock price is at that time – well that is what you get if you sell – you can keep it too. Dividends are a guaranteed 25% minimum of gross profits.

During the IPO there were other stock incentives for the senior pilots as well as bonus shares for workers, but that is past and not available to people joining now – the IPO is over and the stock trades publicly now. Future programs are – well, speculation on my part alone!

Scheduling: Still a mess but with the new incentives I see a large improvement because of the diverging desires of the various pilots. Some will want money and others will want days off while still others will want the different types of trips. These availabilities are there and the different monetary rewards will weed out the competition between pilots. The biggest problem with scheduling is the company is constantly short of crews.

Crew Bases: Currently OMSJ is the only base but the CEO has made numerous statements that they want bases in the Eastern Mediterranean Region (North Africa is my guess) and East of India (probably Kathmandu or Bangladesh.) The details are still some time away – my guess.

Trips & Layovers: The trips vary but the average length is about 7 hours block with 9 hours duty. The credit is between 8-10.5 hours pay under the new scheme. Everything (except VCBI) is an out and back – no layovers. So you will spend every day (or night) at home. While sounding nice it is a double edge sword. While you definitely will be home every day or night, you will also fly the next day or night. Currently flying is about 17-18 days average, but as trip times are increasing that will have to drop. You may amass 80 hour of block time in 11 days but will have to fly another 6-8 days to gain the final 12-20 hours – and you will have to fly it. This should change by the New Year, but as of today that is the way it is.

Second Officer Program: Yes, ABY has a 2nd officer program but it is quite stringent. Very difficult to get into and quite expensive once in. Pay = non existent, work = slave. Will fly for food is far too generous. However many have done so. Dispatchers and Cabin Crew are now flying the line as paid F/Os on the scale above and one former S/O is now simply waiting to amass flight time to upgrade. Technically challenging, for every flight is a check ride and you will have no life. But if you are up to it then go for it.

Retirement: the pilot force is quite young and there is little incentive by them to request a retirement plan. As a result there is none per say. The stock IPO has given quite a few of the older pilots the opportunity to amass a large amount of shares (many have over a million shares) but other than the restricted grants, bonus grants and IPO strike price purchases; there is nothing else. Well other than the standard UAE severance pay of 2 weeks per year employment. Will it change? Probably as the pilot forces ages.

Management: I labeled this topic “management” since several of you asked me “what is it like to work at Air Arabia.” I believe it is the management that sets the environment and in that respect it is quite good. Yes there are problems with scheduling and in the company’s ingenious way they have reduced that considerably. But from the CEO (who has a TRUE open door policy) to the Director of Operations the bosses are honest guys. They will give you an answer (you may not like the answer) but they will give you an honest one.

The company is turning into a true Southwest Airlines of the USA. The incentive is to save money for the company and by doing so the pilot increases his personal pay. The variety of working environments will now depend on the pilot’s personal desires and those can change at the pilot’s bequest. The growth is phenomenal with corporate profits reporting new records every month. For long term prospects I suggest you read Deutche Bank’s recommendation to institutional investors: a current buy recommendation at 1.75. Moody and S&P's ratings are AAa & AA+. So you decide – yes I am personally bullish on both the stock and the operation.

Dubai V. Sharjah: They are close neighbors and a large percentage of pilots live in Dubai. The boarder is less than 10 miles from SHJ airport and in many cases closer than downtown SHJ. Now the traffic – well there is enough stuff on the net to find out for yourself.

I hope this answers the bulk of your questions. If I did not get to your direct question I apologize in advance. Re PM me and I will get to it when I can – you have the lead!

Wild Weasel (Rumble 2) is Burners and Out!

papyjo

8th Oct 2007, 21:32

Hi Wild Weasel,

Thank you so much for providing us with this very well detailed information.

I am really looking forward to flying with you guys !

Though you guys seem to fly a lot, the work atmosphere sounds nice, and you really get the money that goes with it ! ! !

Happy landings everybody.

indonep

9th Oct 2007, 09:11

Can someone please give realistic info on how the life is like for a FRESH pilot working/training as a S/o at Air Arabia?

W Weasel

9th Oct 2007, 11:29

Dear Indonep:

I have no idea what you mean by “realistic info on how the life is like for a FRESH pilot working/training as a S/o at Air Arabia?”

Air Arabia is NOT a flight school nor is it a training academy. It is a public corporation whose requirements are to increase shareholder wealth and not a government airline. Its main purpose is to fly people from point A to B safely and efficiently, always remembering to make a profit for shareholders. As a result it does not have ab-initio programs like Egypt Air, Air India, Cathy Pacific and Lufthansa etc. There is no training for a “FRESH” pilot. You will have to have all your licenses/ratings up to the ATP before you can apply for the S/O program.

:ugh:
Correction: The statement that ABY does not have an Ab-Initio program is inaccurate. There is a program for UAE National Pilots only. The law requires that corporations "hire" and "encourage the advancement or UAE Citizens." Therefore, there is a program for those citizens only.

Unless you are an Emiratee Citizen (citizen of the UAE) you will be competing with other candidates trying to get into the program. Most of the outside candidates that get in already have an A-320 type rating or experience.

In the early days the first candidates were from Europe and came complete with JAR licenses in their pocket. They then paid a lot of cash up front for a rating with ABY. That has changed! The large majority of S/O candidates that come into the program now are in-house employees. These are cabin crew, dispatchers etc. that have taken a leave of absence, traveled to the USA (the majority go there, but some do their training locally) and get their PPL, CPL, IR & MEL. Then they go buy their A-320 type rating somewhere: some in Miami, others in Jordan and others still in Cairo, but wherever they go they get the rating.

:hmm:
Correction: this was not to imply that all non UAE S/Os bought a rating. As stated, in the early days many of them bought it via ABY. Today the program is different as stated.

Most have about 500+ hours and from now on the program is intense. They know the aircraft but before they fly they have hours in the FMGS trainer. Then they have hours more in the sim again. I am not certain but it is about 4-6 months after the start of the program before they fly their first flight. Every flight from now on is with an instructor (TRI/TRE) and the verbal drilling/examination is extensive. I believe they are required to amass 250 sectors and 500 hours minimum before they can be released for their PPC.

I have flown with many of the graduates but they admit the program is very hard and time consuming. They have no life. Except for the UAE locals there is no pay while in the program and all expenses are on you. You are required to sign a 5 year working bond that does not start until you finish the program and you have no benefits including scheduling, sick leave, and vacation etc rights. You are not an employee and graduating is not a guarantee of even getting hired at ABY. You are lower than a worm in a ditch!

Indonep, I see from your question you are concerned about quality of life as a S/O. Let me tell you, if that is even a slight concern you may want to consider another line of work. As the salesman said to the customer in the Ferrari showroom: “Sir, if you have to ask the price of the car you can not afford the car!”

But not to worry, it appears the only S/Os getting into the program today are UAE citizens or Air Arabia employees. You have the lead!

Rumble 2 is Burners and Out!

indonep

10th Oct 2007, 08:59

Dear Sir,
I think i will rephrase my question since I have been slightly misunderstood here!

1) I have recently Graduated with an FAA CPL/IR/ME TT 230 hrs no type rating.

2) I am not a UAE National.

3) What would be an ideal preparation be like IF applying for the post on S/O, in other words what knowledge are we expected to have other that what we learnt during our training at Flight school.

4) I thank you for the info saying there will be no pay, etc.no job guarentee for S/Os who graduate in AA.I will have to plan my expenses & rethink before applying.

5) working conditions etc are least that matter to me, as a young graduate straight out from a flight school( working on the license conversion proces in Indis), getting a job is my main concern.With selling mobile phone SIM cards outside railway stations in India to becoming a cabin crew in a reputed middle eastern airline ,I just Cant wait to get a job and fly commercially!!
:ok:

speedtwoten

10th Oct 2007, 16:58

Aircraft & Acquisitions: the company currently has 10 A-320s 77K (170,000 lbs.) MGTOW. The plan is for a fleet of at least 34 aircraft. The exact type has not been released but it will be either 737s or 320s. Watch the news at the Dubai Air Show for an announcement – my guess.

W Weasel, if they choose to buy/lease 737 how can I apply to this company:)as DEC could you give the the address please:{

W Weasel

11th Oct 2007, 09:08

http://www.airarabia.com/careers.html

I'd wait until the announcement on whether they get 737s or not.

W Weasel

11th Oct 2007, 10:22

Indonep:

I do not mean to discourage you from following your dream; however, with only 230 hours there is a whole lot you will need to learn. That said every Captain flying today once had 230 hours.

I am assuming you are an Indian National from the things you said (“learnt,” “railway stations in India,” “license conversion process in India,” etc.) As a result you have excellent avenues available to you; avenues others only dream about.

There are tens of articles that explain the need for pilots in your home country. Your federal government has publicly chased airline CEOs for internal airline problems. Anyway, I have enclosed a few addresses for you from airlines desperate for pilots in your native India.

*Kingfisher Airlines: http://www.flykingfisher.com/exp_crew.asp?id=30 While their trainees start on the ATR that is a good airplane for a new pilot. They Currently have 30 320s & ATR aircraft but have ordered 160+ aircraft including A-330s, 340s, 350s and 5 A-380s.

Jet Airways: http://www.jetairways.com/MSIB21/Templates/JetTPLExpatApplication.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRORIGINALURL=%2fCultures%2fen-US%2fOther%2fAbout%2520Us%2fCareers%2fExpat%2520Pilot%2520Ap plication%2f&NRNODEGUID=%7b4FEA0D45-30F3-4C9B-839F-8783F8E2CCF8%7d&NRCACHEHINT=Guest
Currently they have 55 aircraft ranging from ATRs to B-777 & A-340s. They have 72 aircraft on order including 20 B-787s.

Indigo Airlines:
http://book.goindigo.in/skylights/cgi-bin/skylights.cgi#pilot They have 11 A-320s with 89 on order.

*Air Deccan: http://www.flyairdeccan.net/Careers.htm They have 30 aircraft with 21 on order.

*SpiceJet Airlines: http://www.spicejet.com/pilotprogram.asp or http://www.spicejet.com/careers.asp They have 11 737-800 with 14 on order. Seriously looking for pilots!

*Indian Airlines: http://indian-airlines.nic.in/scripts/careers/AD_TP_wb_2007.htm They have 74 aircraft with 39 319/320 on order.

*Air India: http://www.airindia.com/page.asp?pageid=9 They have 45 aircraft mainly B-747 & B-777 but have orders for 67 aircraft ranging from 737-800s to triple 7s and dreamliners. They have a dedicated cadet program.

Air Sahara: http://www.airsahara.net/s2v1/AboutUs/careers.aspx?id=5 They have 27 aircraft with 4 on order. They also have a helicopter division with 4 helicopters.

*Go Airlines: http://www.goair.in/co-pilot.asp They have 10 A-320 with 20 on order.

*Paramount Airways: http://www.paramountairways.com/careers.html 5 aircraft with an order for 40 additional.

* Indicates a dedicated cadet or second officer program. You will notice that while some of these airlines do not directly say they have a cadet or second officer program you will see phrases like: “For A-320 A minimum of 25 hrs on ME aircraft (of which 10 hrs could be on an approved ME simulator) is mandatory. Also Currency of ME Instrument Rating is necessary at the time of joining for A-320. For ATR Preference will be given to ME endorsement holders.” From Air Deccan.

Guys, 25 hours ME is an inexperienced pilot or a 2nd Officer/Cadet Pilot!

This is just a start but you will have a very easy time getting out of the train station and into a cockpit in your country.

Burners & Out.

axialflow

12th Oct 2007, 08:15

Weasel,

Your recent posts have been one of the best Ive read so far on this forum, in terms of information quanitity and quality. You are very generous.

If I could point out a few items (and ask a question or two):

1) I understand the S/O pay is approx.AED5000/month(?)(I know, not much)
2) The sectors that a zero-time S/O is required to fly is 125, I think 45 sectors if he comes to ABY with 'other' jet time and is fresh from Initial 320 training.
3) Is the F/O basic pay (<1000hrs) , 15000/mth or 13000/mth?
4) Any more TRIs/TREs inbound to ABY???

I have vested interest in these 'pieces' of info, as I am one of the in-house S/O hopefuls!!

see you around!

indonep

12th Oct 2007, 11:57

Hats off to you sir!
thank you for all the information,
I know I visited the right forum for sure.

Wish you blue skies, Sir.

Indonep.:)

W Weasel

15th Oct 2007, 21:27

Axialflow:

I did not mean to present bad information and to answer your question/statement on S/O pay I can not say. As I stated I am not management, nor am I a recruiter so all the information I present is only that which is publicly available to Air Arabia pilots. I also presented information about S/Os from those guys I flew with who came through the program and that presentation was a consensus. If the pay is now 5K a month for S/Os I say they deserve it.

The sector time – well I said “I believe” and I was referring to zero time. I do know that each pilot is assessed on individual merits, but I verified your statement about 125 sectors and you are right to a degree. It is 125 minimum plus checks. I found out only 1 pilot did it in that time however. But your data is correct.

The F/O pay IS 15,000 for less than 1, 000 hours plus housing (10,200) and transportation (1,000): for a basic of 26,200 basic. The 19,000 is for 2K+

One new TRI hired 1-2 months ago, but I don’t know the inbound pipeline. :confused:

Hope to see you on the line and I’ll jerk gear for you.

Burners and Out!

30R

15th Oct 2007, 21:32

Hi Guys

First time on the forum. Need some Air Arabia info. I have 1600 TT. 400 Jet time on Citation III. 500 Multi Time.

No A320 rating. Do i stand a chance to get into Air Arabia. If the airline pays for my rating i am prepared to pay pay them back in monthly installments for sign a bond.

Any advice.....

axialflow

17th Oct 2007, 09:06

weasel...hahahaha, Ill be looking for that gear!!

Thanks for the confirmations. I do hope we get some more TRIs on line. How effective can line training be if you fly once a month! Well, im an optimist...things will def. improve as the mgmt. are a switched-on bunch.

One last question on FO salaries...inlcuding the flying allowances, what does the FO salary top out at in a month (assuming an average mix of night and day flying).

take it easy,

ax.

W Weasel

17th Oct 2007, 15:54

Answer to the TRI question. There are currently 16 TRIs/Es working like crazy.

Ax - well your statement is really hard to answer. You will fly 900 a year but the combination is up to you. Obviously, the more you fly in 1 month will give you a greater annual salary than stretching it out over 12 months. The progressive monthly salary so dictates. But here is a little you can use.

A new F/O will make 26,200 a month basic (less than a 1,000 hours in type.) Assuming 75 hours a month credited block time you make another 3,500 plus perdiem. At ABY you will not spend this since all is out and back and you can figure 100 hours = 1,000. So a 75 hour month will give you 30,700.

Now you have to determine how that 75 hours actually is gained. It could be as high as 70 hours actual block or as little as 50 hours block (night.) So while the credit is 75 the actual block will be determined on what you fly.

If you fly more per month then it will obviously be more. Let's say you take 45 consecutive days annual leave and you fly the max the rest of the year. You will have 900 hours in 10.5 months. Assuming this is spread this evenly over 10 months (also a limiting factor) you will 90 hours a month block. If you mix this 40% night and 60% day the numbers come out like this.

36 hours night = 54 credit
54 day = 57.8 credit

111.8 pay for 90 hours block

progressive pay is
500 for first 25 credit hours
1,000 for 2nd 25 credit hours
2,000 for 3rd 25 credit hours
5888 for last 36.8 credit hours

Total 9388 AED + PD 1,100

Total 10,488 + basic = 26,200

36,688 (apx $10,000 US) for 10 months.
Remaining months will be basic at 26,200 for annual total of 419,280

The combos can be higher or lower depending on how you fly. A quick example is fly the same 900 hours in 9 months (100 block per month.) Use the same mix 40/60%

40% = 40 hours = 60 credit hours
60% = 60 hours = 64.2 credit hours

124.2 hours
500 = 1st 25
1,000 = 2nd 25
2,000 = 3rd 25
7,872 = 49.2 hours

Total = 12,472 + 1,300 PD = 13,772 or 39,972 for 9 months for annual total of 438,348 AED

You can see how the differential can work. The combinations are endless and as I said before up to the pilot.

Hope this helps.

Burners and Out!

serious flyer

17th Oct 2007, 16:47

Adding that to the basic (for a 2,000+ Captain) the monthly salary would be 68,000 Dhm per month. The same flying in day would be 55,000 Dhm.
W Weasel, this payment is allowance included or just basic salary plus flight time?
Do new joiners get the stock "present" too?
Seems to me that this kind of payment is much better than EY or EK, so why are some pilots leaving for that companies (as said in this forum)?
Thank you for your participation here, you seem to be a very well informed guy regarding ABY.
SF

W Weasel

17th Oct 2007, 19:28

Serious Flyer:

I don’t want to make is sound like a rose garden. Yes the numbers are right but as I said the work is hard. There are no layovers (except CMB) and while you are home every day or night you also fly every day or night. 100 block hours is hard time and while the trips are high time you will work at ABY.

As for the guys leaving – well there are second thoughts in the patch now. Notice the topic “Air Arabia - New Pay Rates.” These are new and the company is quite knowledgeable about the other jobs in the market. They simply had to become competitive and still keep the low cost model. They also knew about the difference in flying difficulties and without a night differential – well they had to do something and they did.

Everyone has to realize that this is different flying from what you probably did before. You are not going to sit at the bar and have a few drinks before you fly again tomorrow. If you do it, it will be at your home. You are not going to chase a few pretty skirts overnight and do the “gear up ring off” bit. ABY is as close to an 8 to 5 job as you can probably get in the airline business.

Some guys want that and I don’t blame them – bin there done that. They want the comradery of an overnight - dido. They want to see the sights of a strange, new town – gotta see it. But that will not happen at ABY. You will not fly an A-380 or Triple 7 here. You will not eat sushi in Tokyo or Pasta in Milan – ain’t goin’ to happen, never did never will! But if you are into your family and want to make some money – well it is competitive.

As for EK & EY – they are a different beast. They are staunch and non-flexible. If that is your cup of tea it is fine – what they give you is what you get, little change. But if you want to deal with whatever you may ever need, then flexibility is what you want. Wife having a baby, no sweat! Need time off for the kid’s football game, done! Dad need to go to hospital in Italy – you got the time off; just make it up sometime else in your schedule.

Sure that may mean you will have to cover for someone else and we all know who abuses it (so does management.) We take care of it fairly well, but still you may get stuck with something you do like because of that fact.

All I can say is the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence; unfortunately it is also thicker. In the last couple years only 2 people left here for EK. Both had family working there and found a better deal as a result (dual housing allowance etc.) EY on the other hand has seen a great exodus. Mainly F/Os who saw the pay differential, work environment and equipment a great disparity – and it WAS.

There are those folks that want to fly a wide body (an airplane is an airplane – show me the money.) There are those folks who want to run the streets – when I was younger and could; I did, so I know their desires. There are those that feel upgrade training will be different – I don’t believe it will anywhere in this part of the world. But whatever their personal desires, well they are personal and I have been lucky to hear many of the complaints first hand. Some of them I agree with and some not, but it does not matter what I fell for they are making the decision. Now is a great time in the industry and a guy/gal can choose like they could not for decades? I have not seen anything like this since the mid 70s but then again that was only a few years after LUV started. Those “poor” guys as still flying 73s:)

The numbers I quoted are as stated. The 55K or 68K include allowance and flying in my example. A 2,000+ Captain will definitely make 55+ K for 100 on the new scale, no matter what he flies – heck you make 40,500 for sitting on your butt for the month. That will only happen at ABY in two situations. 1) You are on leave and 2) you are 900 hours and out of time; the rest you will fly.

Hey guys ABY is not for everyone! One thing that is certain (at least now) you will not be invited into the Chief Pilot’s Office for “tea and biscuits” after a flight because you argued about a fuel load in Bombay like you would at EK. You won’t have to deal with the Gestapo at departure like you will at EY. You go, you fly and you leave – it is that simple. You have a problem, you’ll get a solution and the D.O. is a great guy who has the power to listen – he does.

Sure you screw up; you’ll get your hand slapped. You screw up twice; you’ll get it slapped real hard. Do it again you’ll find yourself in the sim doing a check ride – you deserve it. Be an arrogant idiot – we all know them – well you’ll find few guys at your farewell party.

It is not brain surgery. Go to work, fly your plane, do it safe, do it on time as best you can, don’t jerk off the other employees, don’t break anything, don’t hurt anyone and make money for the company – they will leave you alone and you will make a descent wage.

Hope this helps,

Burners and Out

W Weasel

17th Oct 2007, 19:38

Serious Flyer:

The stock issues are gone. I have no idea if there will be additional grants. Only people on the property as of 1 Sept 07 got the grants. The bonus shares were for people on property as of March 07. I have no idea what the company will do in the future, but I am sure they do not want to dilute the shares I hope not!

But bonus has been the best in the UAE the last 2 years. I have no idea what will happen but I am sure everyone is thinking in the 4 month range for 07. Of course it depends on profits but they have been making massive profits every month. Go for 4

axialflow

17th Oct 2007, 20:16

weasel,

you answered my questions and then some! Thanx again.

You guys now have a new route to fly... Bangalore.

take care

ax

eaglejet

17th Oct 2007, 22:37

So what kind of accomodation does 10,000/12,000 dhm give you if you live in Dubai? Sounds a little low to me as we keep hearing the EK guys complaining about the cost of lodging in DXB? Is that cheaper to live in Sharjah?

serious flyer

18th Oct 2007, 02:16

Hey W Weasel,
Thank you for all the information.
AS I see it, ABY seems to be the UAE Ryanair, with much better payment.
Regards,
SF

W Weasel

19th Oct 2007, 17:35

Eagle Jet:

You ask a very difficult question. What does 120-144K a year get you in the UAE for housing? I read your post a couple days ago and had to think about how to answer this. Here are my feelings and that is all they are spiced with some facts.

There is so much information on the net – not pprune – but the net about housing costs in Dubai/UAE that I would be a poor source for that info. I can only tell you about what I know and have seen the last 5 years.

What do you want?

What do you need?

These are the questions you are asking me to answer and frankly I have no idea. Are you married? Do you have a family? School age kids? High School, grammar school? Are you used to small homes or large homes? Do you need servants or service? What types of environment do you like – beach or desert? And the list can go on ad infinitum!

Pilots bitch, other than fly an airplane that is what we do. We are pros at both. I can not comment on EK or EY pilot’s complaints and if you make your decision based upon that – well you are a bone head.

But your question was basically what can I get? I can not tell you, nor can anyone else on this planet. I can tell you what I have and what can be had (if you make your decisions based upon your requirements and not other people.)

I have a 560 sq meter (5,700 sq ft) villa - 5 bedrooms + office, 7 bathrooms, living room, dinning room (very large) and 2 kitchens etc. It has a separate servants building with 3 bedrooms (apx 10 sq meters each - large for the UAE), 2 bathrooms, storage room and the extra (2nd) kitchen – Arabic style. It is on a half acre lot with 3 car garage, huge enclosed driveway for 6 vehicles, grass, pool etc. 7 central zone air conditioners, 8 hot water heaters, 2 years old, a dirt area for my wife’s garden and enough lighting for a fairly good outside barbeque for 50+ folks during a wild night in February. Pretty nice place! To be honest the nicest place I ever lived in, during my lifetime.

Now pass that around in the UAE. I pay 105K a year plus 5K for the government. Do the math. I make 144 and pay 110 which gives me 34K to blow on the old lady and kids.

My data is fact and I will give more later. The point is simple. What do you want?

I live in a family area where my 16 year old daughter can walk to the store at 10PM with impunity. My 14 year old son can ride his bike where his mom only worries about him breaking his neck on the sand dune around the block. I am minutes from work during rush hour and the local/neighborhood store still delivers milk at 6AM to my door.

Where is that – well that I am not going to say but I know many of the guys in the company have been reading these posts and know very well who I am. They also know that what I say is fact without hyperbole.

So once again EJ what do you want? Oh you want to live in Jumeriah 2 on the beach – ok then 150 sq meters cost 250K a year. You want to live on the golf course in Arabian Ranches – 300K a year is for you at 150 sq meters. A condo in Jebal Ali – better fork out 200K a year for a 1 bedroom overlooking the sand. The Meadows, Springs, Murdif – well you have the zip code and with that goes the price. Oh I forgot it is going to take you 1 hour to get to work in the afternoon during the rush hour.

Guys ABY is in SHJ not DXB! You want to live in Diera or Jumeriah – well what do you want? Air Arabia does not care! That is not to say prices are not high in SHJ – they are, but what do you want? The Buhirah (sp). The cornice on the inland waterway - sure prices are high. It is up to you and it takes time. For those new to the sand pit it will take time. You don’t know the area and the biggest mistake most make is going where their friends/co-workers went before. The paper is full of info, not UPP or Emmar but real info – spend the time. Many locals want stuff without agents and make deals with a handshake and a nod. Yes it takes time to understand and find them but they are here. I have been here for 5 years and my rent has actually decreased the last 2 years.

Now guys I don’t want to make it sound like I live in the sticks – not true. We have a major grocery store less than 4 Km away, and a little Indian store .5 Km away. My boys go to the Australian school about 6 km away and my daughter goes to the Dubai Academy for Girls 14km (my wife’s GPS.) Major parks (Discovery Land) is around the corner and off road land is less that 1 km away (if you are into that as we are.)

You like the beach – well that is on the other side of town. I will say this. Bin there done that. We lived on beach road for 2 years and while nice – noisy, dangerous etc. rather drive and see it than live there now. You will hear about the Asian Subcontinent people living in the area – that is true. But you know what? I can care less whether it is a man from Pakistan or a man from Sidney that googles over the body of my 16 year old daughter and her friends – guys do that! So we buy family memberships in local clubs. We are members of Kimpenski’s and they have all the needs we want. The girls can wear their skimpy bikinis and lay on the beach all day long without pressure from perverts (pilots.) They can go bowling in the lanes while dad drinks a pint at the sports bar watching India beat Pakistan in football:) The point is these places exist and westerns use them. You don’t need the NAME of a place to enjoy your time – but then again –WHAT DO YOU WANT!

Hope this give you an idea but if it doesn’t well, then it doesn’t help.

Burners and Out

axialflow

19th Oct 2007, 19:59

weasel,

You need to write a book!

Call it 'the idiots guide to Air Arabia', call it 'the idiots guide to spending your housing allowance wisely', call it ' the idiots guide to answering impossible questions'!!! JUST WRITE...you'll do well. Ill buy a copy!

Your posts are tutorial in nature.

Ax

cameltoe2006

20th Oct 2007, 01:02

W Weasel,

I take my hats off to you for making the effort to give all these information about AA. I did my best too in the past to encourage others to come and work for this great company. Everything you said is really spot on, and I admire you for your honesty and unselfish devotion to give out as much information about Air Arabia and help others get in.

To those reading W Weasels posts, I can personally attest to the veracity and truthfulness of everything he said. He brought me to his huge villa once and offered me bacon and egg for breakfast while waiting for the fog to clear up before our flight. W Weasel is one of the best guys I have flown with in AA and all you new joiners should look forward to fly with him and hope for a thick fog in the early morning so you can have breakfast in his house too!

Before I go on, I just want to say that I am not writing this post in response to W Weasel's previous post about AA and to make any comparisons between AA and my present company. Both are actually good, and any inference that may be derived from reading this would actually depend on how each one of us view life in general.

To be honest, I miss AA and I miss all the nice people there. It was really good while it lasted. But while I admit that I had a really great time when I was there, nevertheless I must also say that I am happier where I am now. I am living in a villa too, not too huge, but nice. It's 4 BR (incl maid's rm) with 4 toilet and bath, 2 car garage, a front yard, a porch and a barbecue area at the back. I have my own space as office too where I put all my medals, certificates/placques/commendations, old pics and all my other war booties (haha). My wife has a small garden with some plants and flowers where my two kids, 9 yo boy and 6 yo girl take turns in watering them. Im living in a compound of six villas and I have very nice neighbors. All the kids in the neighborhood play with each other while the parents enjoy a bottle or two of beer and wine. My kids' school is just 12 min drive from where I live and the airport (where I go to work!) is just as close to home. I fly an average of 85 hrs/mo, 3 times to europe/mo, and the rest up and down the gulf area and India. On my days off (which is a minimum of 9 days/mo) and while the kids are in school, me and the missus go to a family country club close to home - either to work out, play tennis or just laze around in the jacuzzi. The kids, on their free time, get to enjoy the big pool as well. But most importantly, in my new company and with unlimited ID90 tickets, now we have the opportunity to go back to our home country anytime we want.

I must say that I had a good life when I was with AA. Money was good, and I have nothing but only the deepest gratitude to the company for giving me the chance to work with such magnificent people. From the CEO down to the smallest mammal in the company, everybody treated everybody with respect. But a year onwards I found out that there was something missing in my life. Most of the pilots working in AA are expats, and I didn't have any problems working with them. But most of them too come from neighboring middle east countries and India so it's like they never left home at all and other than the hard work they all seemed to be happy. My case, however, was different. I came from an island country (small but beautiful) which is almost 9 hrs flight away in SE Asia. My kids are still young and when we came to the UAE we lived in a place where they didn't have anybody to play with. After school they go straight home and do nothing but watch TV (if there was anything worth watching), play computer, wait for dinner and then sleep. It's like they were living in a huge box with no windows. While most of the time I was home after each flight, I hardly had time to play with my kids as I was just too tired. After a gruelling night shift I would sleep the whole day and wake up just to do another flight again in the evening. Of course this didn't happen everyday. But more or less this somewhat became an almost daily routine and the missus started to complain about boredom and homesickness. I tried to make some diversions, bring the kids to the mall as often as I could, watch movies and let the missus do some shopping. Somehow this proved to be a welcome respite and a temporary avenue to escape away from the humdrums of everyday life. And yet the longing and yearning of going back home and reconnecting to our grassroots and the desire to regain the simple, but happy life that we left behind was just irreplaceable. When I decided to leave my home country to work as an expat it was because I wanted nothing but the best for my family. But I came to the realization that money cannot buy all the happiness in this world. I was, above all things, concerned about the happiness and welfare of my children. And for the first time of their young lives, my kids celebrated their birthdays away from home with nobody but just me and my wife. It's very easy to please children, just buy them toys and cake and they will be happy, well, at least for the moment no matter how fleeting it may seem. The next day you bring them to the mall again for some kiddie rides, and the next, and the next... But where is real happiness in that? No other kid to sing them happy birthday, no other kid to chase around with, no other kid to tell those silly secrets little boys and girls tell to each other. In silence I started to weep. I tried to search deeper, but found - emptiness. The agonizing pain of seeing my kids grow up this way was completely unbearable. And so after a careful thought I decided to make a move. Some people thought that I was moving to the other side of the fence because of bigger pay or bigger airplane and better career prospects. And so they said go for it. And perhaps some may have even thought that I made a mistake for leaving the company since things started to get better after I left. But surprisingly, nobody actually thought that my real motivation for leaving was my family. People can say this or that, but would they actually care if my family is unhappy? Well I didn't think so. Money may provide us with all the comfort and things that we desire but it cannot buy real happiness. Having a good career and the best job in the world does not make you a whole person either. But relationships, friendships - both new and old ones, and family definitely can give you a profound sense of contentment and an incomparable feeling of joy and happiness.

Do I have any regrets coming to work for AA? No I don't have. I left AA only because I care so much about my family. My whole point is it didn’t make sense to me anymore if I made good money and yet I could see that my kids were slowly being deprived of a normal childhood. Maybe it just didn’t work out well with me, and maybe it would just work out fine with others. And so to those wanting to work abroad and leave your comfort zones behind, think hard about it and just decide what is best for you - and your family. Like what W Weasel said - WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT? WHAT DO YOU NEED? We all make our choices. But remember that when we make these choices, we also have to make some sacrifices. I did mine.

To those who have sent me PMs but never got the chance to reply right away, please accept my apologies. But just the same, I wish you all the best of luck.

In ending, I am most certain that many of my ex comrades in AA reading this (my last post) probably know who I really am now. As a true fighter jock coming home from his last flight, all I can say is THANK YOU for the wonderful times. THANK YOU for the good flights, but most of all THANK YOU for all the memories.

P.S.

Just a few days ago, my son came home with some small knee bruises after playing football with the other boys in the hood. Her mother of course was bit concerned and gave my little boy some bit of scolding, but I just pretended to ignore her. Later at bedtime I told my wife that this is how boys grow up to become real men. Let them feel pain so they will grow strong, let them fall down so they will learn how to get up.

And my little girl? Well, I have no other way of telling how happy she is playing with the bunch of other girls in the neighborhood. The desert sands are a-plenty for them to make sand castles and play make believe stories of dungeons and dragons. They play hide and seek, running from one house to another. They come to watch in our living room endless movies of Bratz and Barbie and Barney. Their giggles and shrieks are music to my ears. Black hair or blonde hair, white skin or brown skin, for these young and innocent children friendship knows no colors, love knows no boundaries, and happiness, a universal thing.

Since my children came into this world, it has become some kind of a ritual for me to kiss and touch their faces before I go for flight. And no matter which time of the day I come home I always do the same. I derive strength and inspiration from them. While they sleep I watch over them. Do I feel their happiness now? I most certainly do. Is this life worth all the sacrifices I’ve done for them? I believe it is. After all, my life is my FAMILY, and my family is my LIFE...

Goodbye and blue skies to you all! :ok:

Guru8904

20th Oct 2007, 09:36

Cameltoe 2006

Man ,this was indeed heart moving; I almost cried reading your honest and sincere post. This may take us way off the topic but this is what life is all about, about true happiness, about the love and affection and warmth you have for your family. I must thank you once again for giving us all such a nice post to read. May God bless you and your family for times to come. Aamen

global707

20th Oct 2007, 10:08

WW

Was wondering if you had any insight on the 'Day Off Flying Rate' At Aed280 per day, it seems a little lacking on the incentive side of things? Take a base salary of Aed 21,000 and divide by 30, that would give you a daily rate of Aed700. Any ideas on how/why they came to this figure of 280?
Global

W Weasel

21st Oct 2007, 09:52

Global707:

Have no idea how they came up with the rate but they did it about 2 years ago and it hasn’t changed. A little low may be an argument but you must remember you still get the flying rate. Obviously, day off flying usually comes at the end of the month or during holidays. It is really a non occurrence now but it seems to be about a 19% premium over the highest hourly rate.

What I mean is standby/reserve coverage usually takes care of the needed flying. If a guy has to have a particular day off (and he knows coverage is tight) he will usually take care of the flying himself by working something out with his fellow pilots. I have flown tons of trips for guys that “had to have the day off” and in that case it is not "day off" flying. Sometimes you simply swap trips. “I’ll do your KTM on the 20th if you do my CMB tomorrow?” We take care of it ourselves. Sometimes it is necessary but ABY really does not like to pay for day off flying and keeps it to a minimum.

During spurts, like we will go through with the new cities coming and the new airplanes will cause this disruption. That usually goes away in a month or two now that the company has finally realized that they continually need to hire pilots for these next 24 airplanes.

But if you do need it and you are over 75 hours you are in the better bracket. Say you have an 8 hour Almaty trip (pay 9 hours.) You will get 2,160 for the trip plus 280 for the day off and per diem (apx 11 hours or 110.) This trip will pay you 2,250 which is not too bad. Remember when you get into the upper level we have the highest per hour rate in the region for pay, so I rarely hear guys complaining about this. Make this trip a night Trivandrum (VOTV) and the same 8 hours pays 13.5 plus or 3,240 + 280 + 110 = 3,630 for one trip.

Burners and Out

W Weasel

21st Oct 2007, 10:22

Hey Cameltoe2006, how are you? I am glad things are working out well for you. Have heard from others you are quite happy. But with your friendly personality and positive attitude I am sure you would be happy flying anything. Not that fighter pilots should ever fly anything that does not have Martin Baker stamped on the seat

Thanks for the nice words but we need to get a San Miguel soon. You know that low level light is own _ECAM action. Stop work, drink beer. Clear ECAM.

Guys and Gals, I said it before and I will stand by that. ABY is not for everyone and some of the reasons have been explained very well by others. But I do disagree with one thing C-toe said “I came from an island country (small but beautiful) which is almost 9 hrs flight away in SE Asia.” Of course I do not disagree with your beautiful homeland but the part, “…most of them [pilots] too come from neighboring Middle East countries and India [we don’t have Indian pilots if you don’t count Saleem who flew for United Airlines in the States but 4 Pakistanis] so it's like they never left home at all.” Emphases added by me.

I don’t fully agree with this statement. In the early days the vast majority of non-management pilots came from North America and Europe. The CP (Glen Burns) was a Canadian and 50% or more of the line guys were North Americans or Europeans. Granted that was in the early days but it did not change all that much.

Yes some of the Arabian guys live quite close. It is easy for an Omani or a Bahraini to go home with 1 day off. It is equally easy for an Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, to go home, but that is not the norm even today. As a matter of fact just this month one of the Egyptian Captain left because “he missed home.”

There is a large contingent of Columbian pilots in the company with Brazilians gaining fast. A couple Columbians have left to go elsewhere while a couple guys have left other companies to come to ABY. Most North Americans consist of Canadians with 2 USA and 1 Mexican as well. Most European countries are represented from Sweden, Denmark, Holland and Belgium. The Germans are short (the only one we had, left a couple years ago) but the Swiss have taken up the slack with now 3 Swiss on property. There is an ever growing French population as well as several Italian pilots that abound in the cockpits. Spanish from Spain and Portuguese from Portugal are able to converse in their native tong with Mexicans in Spanish and Brazilians in Portuguese. The ever present Brit and Irish still exist along with a large group of North Africans from Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco.

The Russians are coming! An ever increasing number of pilots are coming from the former Soviet Union stretching from Armenia to Ukraine over to Eastern Russia. A Bulgarian, a Turk and a Check are also new to the cockpit. What is missing is the Asian group of pilots.

Cameltoe is quite right with respect to some pilots having the ability to go home easily, however, your 9 hours to get home is only half the time for some of us. Those guys going to South America or Western USA and Canada, spend 13 hours getting to the East Coast and another 7-8 hours to get home after a plane change. Several of our pilots have to make 3+ aircraft changes just to get home. As a matter of fact I would say 9 hours commuting to home is less time than needed by over 20% of our pilots (I know it is less than 50% of the time needed for me:) Even the guys going to North Africa; Tunisia, Morocco etc have nearly the same time as going to the PI.

I did not write this to directly argue with Cameltoe for what he says is mainly right with respect to the pilots. However, I noticed something else in his writing. I do know him and have flown with him and his abilities are above reproach, but there was something in the writing that bothered me. I understood when I saw his personal writings about family.

In all the cases I wrote about above there is professional camaraderie throughout the company. Portuguese and Brazilians, Armenians and Ukrainians, Mexicans and Spanish, USA Americans and Canadians, Danes and Swedes, French Tunisians and French, Swiss and Italians, etc. all had someone to associate with – well there are the Irish:) They have the ability to talk in their native language, share different yet similar culture and the proverbial war stories. Those from the same country have even more commonality, but if you are a lone wolf then there is probably some country in the company that is represented and your culture will be close. That is what happened to Cameltoe with the under representation of Asia in the company.

Of course the company is full of people from his native land and his fellows are well represented in the UAE but pilots, we are a different breed. How many of you, in your native land, had a personal relationship between families with a maid, or a bartender? How many times did the gardener in your home town go out to dinner with your family? For that matter how many computer programmers, medical analysts, engineers and lawyers did you have a social connection with in your homeland? Probably not too many and that creates problems here if pilots from your location do not exist in the community.

I am not so arrogant as to say why Cameltoe left. We talked about it and I believe he made a good decision. But I am sure that was one factor, not to mention the 9 hours in coach It is something every pilot needs to consider when coming to the sand pit, not just ABY.

Yet I will say this with respect to family. Of course I come from a different culture and we have different concepts of familiar responsibilities. Families are resilient and in my case coming to the sand pit was a family choice. Everyone had a say and everyone has their responsibilities today. Toys, game boys, dolls, malls, skiing, beach, dreamland and Wild Wadi, are toys for families. My 7, 9 & 14 year old boys each have their own separate large bedroom with their own bathroom. Every night they try to sleep together in one bed. Even when we make them sleep apart they get up in the night and crawl into their brother’s (or when she let’s them their sister’s) room. We have had times when 4 kids are sleeping in one double bed for absolutely NO reason. Why? That is what kids do. It is not about the stuff but what we, as family, make it.

Do you remember your campouts? You huddled together in a sleeping bag in a tent pitched in the back yard; getting as close to each other as you could on a sticky summer night. Well our flying schedule has nothing to do with that. Of course I wish I were not so tired as to be able to do more after a trip. One of the most difficult things about ABY, if you worked for a legacy airline in the past, is that your family has a set of expectations. Dad comes home after a trip (1,2,3,4 or 5 days doesn’t matter.) When Dad comes home you leave him alone for 24 hours. Then you do things as a family for a few days until Dad leaves again. At ABY your family may still think this way and as Cameltoe stated you only sleep to go to work again.:( But there is a difference.

You will run out of flying time doing this. I am in my 4th year at ABY and for the last 3 years I have had at least 4 consecutive weeks off (not including leave) due to 900 hours. In 2005 I did not even take leave because there was no need too. I was off from early July to mid September – uninterrupted due to 900 hours. In 06 it was July – August. In 07 it was 3 weeks in July and I have had 1 trip since the 10th of October – done for the month.

“People can say this or that, but would they actually care if my family is unhappy? Well I didn't think so.” I will go one step further and say I know so. It is always up to you to provide whatever your family needs first and desires second. I do not believe any one of us could do our job knowing our family was in need or want of something, and for that I applaud your decision. I simply disagree with what they need and truly want.

Of course I have had the problems with my wife for years. When we got married she left her country and flew half way around the world to a strange new land with strange customs and people. Today she understands those people and has no problem living in that country. When she came to the UAE (after many years in that first new country) it became an extension of the first chore and was easily solved by her. It is our job to educate our families, provide them with all the information, make sure they have the needs and force them to evaluate their true wants. Otherwise, in the case of non-pilot wives, unless they are living with their mom and dad, they will never understand their true wants.

Anyway I did not want to make this a philosophy lesson but I did want to stress the differences in context for what Cameltoe2006 stated. Some people have different levels of coping and each of us has to examine that for ourselves. Just think of this, some of the guys flying here have left their families in their home country – now that is a hard decision in my book, but it works for them.:confused:

Burners and Out

axialflow

21st Oct 2007, 11:28

'...if you don’t count Saleem who flew for United Airlines in the States but 4 Pakistanis...'

Saleem, I believe, flew jets for the IAF (indian AF) before United. Now, he has left back to India.

Is it true that a large number of the canadian group are leaving back home due to call-backs?

Ax

Straight-In

21st Oct 2007, 12:31

Yo Ax,
Most of the initial group of canucks is on the way home or already gone. (a few went to EK) This is mostly because people just prefer to live at home even if it means less cash, and Air Canada is calling us back and seems to be doing ok. But I'm sure if AC goes for a dive they would not hessitate to come back.
Just a quick comment on what others have posted about ABY: Yes it's not like other places in the ME. Friendly atmosphere and the money is good ( even better now that I left), but it is hard work. I was in training and 8 days off a month was the best you could hope for. Obviously this is not great for family life. Saying it is like a 9 to 5 job is misleading, it is much worse since your working hours are not fixed; one day a morning flight, next day a night flight, a rest day to let your body figure out why you feel like a truck ran over you, and then another 6 am report for Almaty. Then a sim from 2100-0100 plus a debriefing... etc, etc. I think line flying may a bit better now, but for a long time it was the same, and every time a new airplane shows up, there is a crew shortage (unless 1 plane goes AOG).
They say the rostering issue is getting fixed; new (self-made) software and more crews per airplane. But I would be sceptical of that, it's been an on going problem from day 1.
Other than that its a really great place to work. But that's it, you will work a lot, play only a little.

PHAROH

21st Oct 2007, 16:29

[ Pharaoh, actually the answer is almost 3 days old. Pretty slow for PPrune:-)]

I Wild Weasel,

I meant too fast to take this package for granted "yet 2 monthes to go", & you know well things spins fast enough in AA like the SENIORITY scheme :ugh:in case you've forgotten.

Time is what prevents everything from happening at once.

repapips

22nd Oct 2007, 15:05

Hi cameltoe!

Very nice piece indeed! I don't know the goings-on in Air Arabia is but I do understand you. I feel your pain. I happened to work in a place halfway across the globe from where I live, away from my family for two years, and only then did I understand what the word "homesick" meant.

It's good to know you're happy where you are now. Is it still in the UAE? And judging from some previous posts, i think we originally came from the same place... Hope I could be in a similar company as you are now so that I could be in the same state (of happiness) as you are!

All the best 'dre!

inverter

22nd Oct 2007, 16:45

Greetings boys & girls,
very interesting to read all your posts!
its about time you all promoted the so called low cost operator in the UAE.
now at least people will learn more about the pros & cons.
good job
regards
INV

W Weasel

22nd Oct 2007, 19:37

Hey Straight In:

You are right “most of the Canuks are going [home.]” However most of them “no ALL of them” could have gone nearly a year ago! They choose to stay for various reasons. Some for tax purposes in Canada, but most of them to honor their commitment. They are great guys and honorable men and all except one choose to upgrade to Captain. They had a commitment to the company and chose to honor that commitment – I respect that. Some guys chose to go over a year ago when AC called them back and they knew it. They did not check out and by now have been a Captain in AC for nearly a year. Others are going back in pretty good seniority at AC. The bottom line is ABY knew they were going back years ago and they have no problem with that (unlike other companies in the Emirates.)

The flying is hard but 8 days off a month is not reality now. Yes Straight In the training group had work like no one could imagine. You guys worked your tails off and no one can argue with that. However, that was a choice! Training also got to take that great DAM day flight “for training” from the line guy that got it once a month. The hassles were definitely there but there were also rewards (if you consider anything in training a reward.)

You did hit it on the head with crew shortages when planes come on line. You also are exact with the scheduling – NOT! However, ABY’s average trip (2 sectors) is 7 hours – do the math. With the new schedule that will equate to 7.7 hours per or 13 a month. Now we all know that when you get near you will do the BAH, MCT etc shuffle, but there are not enough of them for all the pilots. Simply look at the new company magazine that is in the seat pockets “ NAWRAS.” Cover “Classical Kiev.”

Kiev is a 10 hour out and back. All the Banga-Manga-and everyone else alore, is also 8 hours. It can’t happen! SI I remember the 8 days off a month, but I also remember when a 727 was an advanced airplane – history.

PHAROH

I know what you are saying but I have asked MA & AA about certain things which I have not mentioned. I know the “feeling” and what “we are trying to do” so I have not mentioned them here. You know, holding, diversion etc; but that is “what we are trying to do.” Yes you and I know very well about Seniority – I think I got screwed on that one:) We also know about the schedule, but also, ancient history. I honestly believe things are changing too fast for even those concepts to continue yet you know me and I will not stop – I can’t for everyone.

Folks, the schedule has been written about on this forum ad-infinitum. It has changed from what it was 3+ years ago but it is still crappy. Now for my North American friends, we all know, nothing in this part of the world will ever be like what we were use to as far as schedule or seniority. Having said that, the other boys on the block don’t have much better when you consider our flexibility. Try some of the things we do daily at EK or EY – never will happen!

Will the package be paid as presented “yet 2 months to go?” This management is not stupid and they would not publish something they would not do. That to me is like saying, you flew 100 this month, but we are not going to pay you what the rate is. I honestly believe the reason this was published early was to entice you Canuks to stay. You guys are Captains now and have a lot to offer. While the work is different, they MAY feel the pay and taxes will keep you. Pure speculation on my part but maybe there is a bone head in Canada after all:ugh:

Burners and Out

320 star

24th Oct 2007, 02:56

(you know well things spins fast enough in AA like the SENIORITY scheme in case you've forgotten)

Pharaoh,
what do you mean by that, what happened to the seniority????:confused:

PHAROH

24th Oct 2007, 13:43

320 star (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=91205) ,

If you are one of the old guy's ,you'll know what am i talking about.
I used seniority scheme as an example specially for W W to show my point of view.
But if you're not a cave man like WW ,that the new pay pakage is still GENERIC .

Terd Furguson

24th Oct 2007, 23:52

No they wouldn't!

320 star

25th Oct 2007, 02:23

Pharaoh,
Still don’t understand what do you mean by that, because I thought seniority was sorted,:\ now I am even more confused, what does GENERIC means in the new pay???:confused:

axialflow

25th Oct 2007, 11:34

Just viewed the new ABY Capt and FO salary/benefits package on the website, for the coming year...not too shabby!

Ax

Straight-In

26th Oct 2007, 00:51

Weasel, I know all that. I was there. The new credit system is interesting and may help your rosters.

All in all, if you want to focus on work, money and career, ABY is a great place. But I'm heading out to Canadian Tire (we don't spell it with a 'y' over here) to look at some table saws.

Terdy, judging by your remark you need to get back to your massage chair. I'll send you directions to the vista building.

Tot ziens!

Terd Furguson

26th Oct 2007, 02:24

Hope you are enjoying your pick up truck and mobile home....hill-billy!
See you soon!
:D

busdriver22

27th Oct 2007, 15:14

I hear rumors that iceman is leaving. Cant be true cause i know he will never leave his wingman, who will i have to b*$# to all these times. If thats true then its time for me to pull the yellow and black handle and just punch out.

peace and love :zzz:

cameltoe2006

27th Oct 2007, 15:43

Hi W Weasel,

Thank you for the kind words. I really never thought of myself or my abilities as something exceptional. I just do my job the way it should be done. Sometimes I even think that I am falling short of other's expectations, but I reckon that it in the end it is a good measure for us to strive even better.

Anyhow, we may argue on a few things and break bread with each other and laugh at each other's jokes, but i'm sure glad that somehow we are both able to get our message across. That's democracy. In any case though let me say that no matter what our circumstances in life are, I am pretty certain that we are all standing in a common ground. We want nothing but the best for our families. I am glad too that you are happy where you are. I can see that things are getting rosier and the grass getting even greener on your side of the fence and for that I say cheers with a cold San Mig! As they say, life is too short to waste it so let's enjoy it while we can.

Terd Furguson

27th Oct 2007, 15:53

"Not Captain"......You've lost that lovin' feeling!:yuk:
Take care of yourself, Bukkake :p

teghjeet

28th Oct 2007, 03:23

W Weasel, you mentioned that no Indians fly for AA. any reason why not?

axialflow

28th Oct 2007, 07:22

...maybe the fact that India needs more A320 and B737 pilots than the whole MENA area. Any idea how many 320s Indigo Air (for example) are eventually getting?? something to the tune of 102. I heard from many sources they have one of the highest salary packages in India...???

I think there will be enough work for the qualified/experienced Indian pilots in India, for many years to come.:ok:

Ax

W Weasel

28th Oct 2007, 09:52

Ditto:

For the most part, all things considered equal, pilots would rather fly out of their homeland than anywhere else on the planet.

teghjeet

29th Oct 2007, 11:23

Well,
for one you are right.
But with the current scale, AA is paying good money.
Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.

Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?

axialflow

29th Oct 2007, 12:56

Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?

You talking about time on type or total time? If you have >2000hrs on type, you do get a significant increase from 1000 hrs. Check out
www.airarabia.com (http://www.airarabia.com) , click on careers and you'll see it all spelled out in an easy-to-read format...completely pilot-proof ;)

Plus as a resident in UAE, an Indian does not have 2 pay taxes @33% in India.

If you factor in cost of living in the UAE (RENT, groceries, financing a decent automobile etc), its not THAT great, its good, but not great. You may still be able to save some money in India, even after taxes. At the end of the day, it all depends on your lifestyle...right?

Ax

busdriver22

30th Oct 2007, 12:34

"But with the current scale, AA is paying good money"
"Kindly advise if one joins in 1000-2000 hrs bracket , does the slary increase when he reaches >2000 hrs?"
Good pay scale? well yes to some extent and actually no more than anything else.
This pay scale is prob good only if you are a cpt with >2000hrs on type cause if u are a senior f/o with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs reason for that will say that has to be in seat time. plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which i think is the most absurd thing i ever heard of. What does seniority pay have anything to do with what seat you hold? Dont even get me started on the seniority issue.
So overall a new upgraded junior cpt is not making much more than a senior f/o. maybe a bit more in the flying allowances but thats about it.
I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it. Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while. Other than that its piss all.
anyways that just my point of view im sure others might think otherwise.

PHAROH

30th Oct 2007, 13:08

busdriver22 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=116387)
Your point of view is right & it is too early to know where this package stands between the EK & EY new packages that will be issued by the new year,in fact i think this package was issued early to try to prevent a lot of guys from moving to EK or EY which didn't happen at all.

busdriver22

30th Oct 2007, 13:44

true true. i dont think it will stop people from leaving unless they do a drastic change.

busdriver22

30th Oct 2007, 13:56

to me more than anything else its not the Financial issue that concerns me the most. its really crew sked. Rostering at AA is at its worst. certain pilots actually sit with rostering and tailor make there rosters and in the process screw up everyone elses sked, what kind of system is that? fair? uhu :ugh:

midoy10

30th Oct 2007, 16:32

what is the time when air arbia open the days for recruitement of cabin crew steward and hostess :{

PHAROH

30th Oct 2007, 16:42

busdriver22 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=116387)

( certain pilots )!!!
thats only all your concerns!!!!!!!
GOOD LUCK.:ok:

W Weasel

31st Oct 2007, 13:46

Hey Busdriver22:

I don’t know where you are getting this information but unfortunately it is wrong or exaggerated hyperbole.:= You say: “if you are a senior F/O with >2000hrs on type and then you go for your upgrade you will drop back down to the lowest pay scale of <1000hrs.” True but exaggerated. The senior F/O makes a basic salary, under the new scheme of 30,200 AED where the bottom Captain makes a basic salary of 34,000 AED. This difference alone is more money than the office secretaries make combined (3,800 AED per month.) :eek:

Then if you assume a monthly credited pay time of 100 hours (about 85 flight/block hours.) A senior F/O makes 7,500 AED (not including PD which is the same for both.) The Captain will make 11,250 or a difference of another 3,750 AED. These numbers are significant, but if they are not significant to you I accept Checks, Credit Cards or you can leave the 4,000 – 8,000 AED in my mailbox. :cool:

You then say “for th[ey] will say that has to be in seat time.” I believe you are complaining about the fact that a new Captain will have to go to the bottom of the pay scale because you do not have time in the left seat in that type? Am I correct?

Now let me understand this! You think you should get the same pay as a Captain that has sat in the left seat of an A-320 for 2,000 hours since you sat in the right seat for 2,000 hours? Is that your complaint? In other words there should be no difference in pay for Captains and F/Os since the work is the same and the responsibility is also the same – right?:rolleyes:

Last I checked every licensing agency on the planet JAA, FAA, CAA, GCAA all have a thing called “High Minimums.” Do you remember that? They don’t care if you have a million hours in the right seat, when you check out in the left seat you are a hindrance to the company until you accumulate TIME IN THE SEAT! You can not be scheduled with a new or low time F/O oops messes up scheduling. You have to add altitude and distance on all your minimums – oh there goes old Busdriver22 around again because he can’t get in when everyone else does. But you honestly believe you should be paid the same?:*

“…plus you loose all your seniority pay so that resets as well to time in seat which I think is the most absurd thing I ever heard of.” Well you are right that it is absurd but your data is wrong. 3 years ago “seniority” pay was added to base pay and your statement would hold some (a very little) water; but that all ended in 2005. Today there is seniority pay and that is exactly what it is. It is not for end of service calculations nor is it for bonus calculations but it is transferable.

If you are a 2 year F/O (having completed 24 months of service) you will have 850 AED more per month in your salary. Assuming you have 2,000+ hours in type then your monthly, non-flying, package is 31,050 AED. Then let’s say you will upgrade to Captain. Oh and you have no time in the left seat. You monthly package is now 34,850 AED. After one year more you will increase to 35,850 per month and when you get 1,000 hours you go to 37,850. So what you say is just plain wrong. On your pay stub seniority is listed separately.

“So overall a new upgraded junior Capt is not making much more than a senior f/o.” Well if you consider about €9,000 - €20,000 a year “not much more” - well once again I take all forms of currency. :)

But that is just the basic. If you have children you get another 25,000 AED for education. Your annual bonus will be a minimum of 2,000 AED per month bonus given more. In other words, last year ABY gave 3 months basic salary bonus. Your new Captain would have received a minimum of 6,000 AED more than a senior F/O.

You say: “I think the whole pay system has so many flaws in it.” I won’t argue with you on that point, it does have flaws that I have not mentioned but know about. However what you have mentioned is not them.

“Just benefits certain people who already came in as DEC and have been there for a while.” :yuk: Well, well, well, well, well! How many times have I heard that whining in my career? Of course the company should not think anything about the very guys who built the company. The very guys who started the company. The ones who took the chance on this unknown operation with two old antiquated 320s – of course the company should forget about them and pay all the attention to the new guy who hasn’t done one thing for the company except take the job. Of course all those F/Os that sat in the right seat and had to start over in the left seat should be paid the same as the new guys who have absolutely no time in the seat. Of course they should be paid the same as them.:rolleyes:

As stated before, the contract attempts to address many things. About 40% of the Captains in the company are upgraded former F/Os. Some of these guys have been in the left seat for over 2 years and are receiving the pay of >2,000. The minimum time for a DEC is less than 1,000 in seat. So isn’t it fair for these guys who sat in the right seat for ABY, upgraded at ABY, sat in the left seat at ABY for 2.5 years and now have more time than the NEW DEC that has 900 in type. Shouldn’t he be paid more than the new guy even though the new guy is a DEC? I submit that loyalty does deserve credit but then again I am sure there are new guys that feel they should get the same restricted stock as the guys who have been here 3+ years.:O

Pharaoh is right in that where the package stands between EK-EY is still to be seen. The thing is that whatever they do is irrelevant to ABY in the grand scheme. The men and women who will go to EK-EY will more than likely go there anyway. As Cameltoe2006 said it best. It had nothing to do with the money but his quality of life. As with the Canadians that I know who have recently returned to Canada it was about their quality of life, retirement etc.

Then there is the other person: the one that is not now qualified for EK or EY. That person will come to ABY, get a couple thousand hours in a couple years+ and then easily go to EK-EY-QR or any one else. Or they are a qualified F/O, come to ABY for a couple years and upgrade to Captain. Then they get several hundred hours in the left seat and go somewhere else. They have no intention to stay at G9 and as a result are using it as a tool for their personal end. I have no problem with that but then don’t expect G9 to do that much for you either. It is your job and they get your services – nothing more, nothing less.

You say : “Rostering at AA is at its worst….” := You must not have been here that long. Rostering is beautiful compared to what it was several years ago. Actually you now have a roster. Yes it may change, it may change a lot or it may not change one bit but you do have something. Many of us remember when every day was a standby day. You found out the night before whether you were going to be off or going to fly. Then the flight may have changed a couple times during the night, so what you have now is no where near the “worst.”

“…certain pilots actually sit with rostering and tailor make the[ir] rosters and in the process screw up everyone else’s sked…” I could write a thesis on this but there is a lot of misinformation again. You imply that tailoring the roster “screws up everyone else’s sked.” Have you ever worked in a seniority based airline? You know the one where you bid a series of flights on certain days called a roster. You know the one where the SENIOR guys take all the good stuff and the junior guys get all the S*#T? You know where the Senior guys have all the great days off and the junior guys spend 10 years flying every weekend and holiday that exists. You know where the senior guys fly 14 days a month and make more money than the junior guys who fly 22 days a month. You know the type of system that allows the upper guys to “SCREW” up the schedule of the junior guys? Did you ever work in such a system at maybe Air Canada, British Airways, Qantas, United Airlines, Mexicana, Asiana, Lufthansa, American Airlines or a host of other companies? Well that is what you are complaining about!:confused:

But there is more. By your statement, the way you worded it, you imply the sked is finished and then guys go change things. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most cases (unless a guy has to change things because of family emergencies etc) the stuff is done before hand. The guys go in and ask for certain flights on certain days absolutely, but then they get what they can get. A more senior guy comes in later and asks for a particular trip on a particular day (highly unlikely) the more senior guy may or may not get it.

You say, “Screw up everyone else’s…” You imply that everyone else is NOT doing this and “certain” pilots are doing it. Well if this is true then what is the problem? Are you angry that “certain” pilots are doing it and you are not? You imply that most pilots are not doing it and since everyone knows there is more than enough flying to go around, what are you missing. Since most pilots are not doing it by your own admission, then most pilots do not have a screwed up roster. So what is wrong? A certain (a few) can NOT screw up Everyone’s!

Finally you say “…actually sit with rostering…” I guess they are doing it out in the open. It is not a hidden concept then is it? Rostering and the “certain pilots” are not sitting is some smoke filled room, dividing out the future of who gets Pakistan. No they are sitting in the open I guess. If that is the case then why not sit with them? Yes you may have to do it on your own time but when in Rome, if you feel it is Rome and you are upset about it, do it.

To everyone else, the rostering at ABY is the primary cause of pilots leaving the company (an unofficial survey by me.) It is bad and the flying is hard – very hard. There are two tier pilots, training and everyone else. Training works hard but they do cherry pick the schedule of flights to death. Seniority does not matter in training and that is an advantage they get. Don’t misunderstand me, they can do it and I would too if I could; but the fundamental thinking of management in this area is morally disappointing to most pilots. :ugh:

The contract is short in other areas too. Basically the pay does not compensate for the difficulty of the job. ABY flying is much more difficult than EK, QR or EY; that is fact but many of the reasons given need to be properly addressed.

What will happen? Who knows? This contract will not keep people from leaving nor will it make people happy. Those that compare to EK or EY are comparing apples to oranges and it does not hold water. But G9 does not have a problem getting people. We can complain about their qualifications etc, but the point is they are legal and the company will use them. It is that simple – I heard the arguments all before and they have never held water. I guess rain is coming soon!

“But then again I could be wrong!” :ok:

Burners and Out!

inverter

31st Oct 2007, 17:35

excellent W.W.
but how do you get so much time off to write all this?
regards
INV:ok:

Terd Furguson

31st Oct 2007, 17:45

He doesn't fly nights.....yet ;)

W Weasel

31st Oct 2007, 20:08

Did you say 1.5 for night Terd? I guess I have to get that Day VFR only off my license:)

busdriver22

1st Nov 2007, 03:23

Just for the record W Weasel I’ve actually been in the company longer than you have so yes I do remember how things were before.
For me honestly I could care less about what happens really, its just a shame to see some of my very close friends get screwed up by this whole system and yes they have more experience than probably most of the guys in the company. Anyways most of them are heading back home soon so doesn’t matter I guess.
And tell me please what airline that you previously mentioned accept the same massive roster changes that happen within G9 without a proper pilot to pilot swap? With us It’s just the pilots calling crew sked and changing flights, I mean don’t get me wrong its good to do in the case of emergencies, family matters and what not. But not become a monthly routine. And yes I do take advantage of it ;-) haha but only to some extent. Like you said got to go with the flow. I only say why does this have to happen in the first place and why cant we work out a “proper bidding system” that actually works? And one question that I cant get a proper answer for yet; How come the rosters don’t get published anymore? :rolleyes:
W Weasel I personally know that you have a great deal of experience in this area other than your flying from back home, so why don’t you try to push the guys to implement a better system? I know we all tried in previous meetings and at one point all gave up. But I think its about time we push for a proper one.
Anyways got to run ill catch this thread later.

Safe flying :)

W Weasel

1st Nov 2007, 19:49

Hey BD22: I did not mean to sound condescending and if I did my apologies. Some of the stuff I thought was coming from the guys – well you know what I mean. I now know you and understand.

As for the trying to get the roster right – well I think you know JF and I tried our earnest back in 04-05 to do that (along with the seniority thing.) Remember I was the guy the DECs called “Captain Copilot” on the DOH issue and the not so heated arguments with AS.

Yes we will miss the guys and so will the company, but you and I know that is not in their plan.

As for your answer about the airline, well you know it was my company. That bid sheet and the ability to fly or not fly whatever you wanted. Sure it was nice for us but also great for the company. We ran about 12-13% fewer total pilots (fewer reserves) than the other majors. That amounted to about 7-8 hundred guys when I retired, but much more today (over a 1000.)

I’ll give you an example how it worked. A senior guy is also the coach of his kid’s football team and chooses to bid weekends off. No problem for he has the seniority. At the end of the season the kid’s team wins and gets into the playoffs. The game is on Wednesday, the day Dad (the coach) has to fly a 12 hour 330 flight to Europe. In the other world, Dad has little choice but to “call in sick” for trip trading in a 5-10 thousand pilot airline is near impossible with all the permeations. The company calls out a reserve to fly the trip. Later that month the reserve is not available for another trip because he flew THAT trip and the company calls a third pilot (another reserve.)

In our world, that world back there, the Dad simply dropped his trip. Sure a reserve flew that trip but Dad was responsible for his block time for the month. He got an 80 hour line and he is responsible for 80 hours. Now he could claim the time sick but he doesn’t – why? Well he drops his trip, the reserve flies it (as before) and Dad has the game. Let’s say the team looses and now it is over for Dad and his family responsibilities. But, on Saturday (a day he had normally off), he puts himself available on the “Bid Sheet.” This is far to complicated to explain here, but suffice it to say, he has made himself a reserve from the company standpoint. An extremely senior pilot becomes a reserve. He picks up a trip (that someone else dropped or is in open time) and flies the trip.

Now look at the pilot usage. In case one the company had a pilot out, a reserve used and later a 3rd pilot used for the future trip. In our case the company had a pilot out, a reserve used and the original pilot used for the future trip. 33% fewer pilots in this example. It worked great for all and I did it for over a quarter century!

Of course you need a large pilot force for it to flow as smoothly as it did there, but it can also be manageable with a small force. In all the give backs and all the pilot/management negotiations during those horrible years – not once did the company desire to change that. As a matter of fact ALPA once offered to remove it and the company refused to budge – they wanted it more than the pilots.

I retired quite senior but my last 4 years I NEVER bid a line of flying – not one single month. I always used the Bid Sheet. I could care less what I got (except those few restricted days like XMAS etc) because I new up front that I would never fly 10% of what I actually got. I retired #17 out of 197 Captains on the big bus in PHL, #209 out of 6416 total and I could have been #1 out of 274 if I down bid to the 76. I had a fairly good life until I got tired of the cold, rain, taxes, sore knees, the FAs were younger than my daughter and all the international stuff flew at night over the NAT Tracks - you know that I don't do night flights well:)

Now the beauty of the bid sheet was the junior guys got some great trips that their seniority would never hold. When I was tail end Charlie on the 72, I got a 3 day layovers in Bermuda during the winter that I will never forget. Why, because some block holder needed that time off and he was hundreds of numbers senior to me.

There are few guys here that want to take the scheduling out of the hands of Bombay, more than me. I have tried diligently to explain the “win-win” situation of what I write. Back in the world I was extremely knowledgeable of this operation for I was the ALPA over 85 chairmen (or LEC member) for 9 years. Technical airplane knowledge – go for it, but make it work for pilots and the company, that was my baby. The only problem is most guys really don’t care.

So I simply say the facts as they exists and hope others take what is and do the best for themselves. We all know it is hard to get two pilots to agree on when to put the gear down not alone scheduling and seniority issues.

Burners and Out!

teghjeet

2nd Nov 2007, 06:30

W.W,

A real informative post. You do seem to be an asset to the management and be a Pilots guy at the same time.

Flying is tough everywhere except the giants..you mentioned , with the bid system etc

however the work load in a growing airline is gradual and only longtimers can appreciate the changes.

busdriver22

4th Nov 2007, 21:02

W. W. no worries. i know what u mean. oh well, we'll just have to wait and see how things unfold i guess.

Broomstick Flier

5th Nov 2007, 12:28

According to Reuters, some fleet increase will happen soon:

Reuters reports Boeing (BA) or Airbus may win an order this month worth as much as $3.95 bln from United Arab Emirates-based Air Arabia, which said on Sunday it plans to buy as many as 50 planes.

The Middle Eastern low-cost carrier had previously said it was looking
to purchase 34 either Boeing 737 aircraft or A320s from Airbus, a unit
of EADS. A Boeing 737-800 costs as much as $79 mln at list prices,
valuing a 50-plane order at $3.95 bln. An order for 50 A320s would be
worth about $3.25 bln.

BF

looseobject

8th Nov 2007, 20:05

seen on Air Arabia website.

» Air Arabia to open second hub in Morroco to
serve Europe, Middle East and Africa

http://www.airarabia.com/images/spacer.gif

Sharjah-based carrier dramatically expands its geographic reach through agreement with Regional Air Lines of Morocco
Air Arabia intends to assume management rights for Morocco-based carrier
Air Arabia and Ithmaar Bank provide capital injection for Regional Air LinesSharjah - United Arab Emirates, November 7, 2007: Air Arabia, the first and largest low-cost carrier (LCC) in the Middle East and North Africa, announced today that it will establish its second hub in the Moroccan capital, Rabat, providing the Sharjah-based LCC with a platform from which to reach into the wider Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA) market. This announcement follows the signing of a management agreement between Air Arabia and Regional Air Lines, the leading private carrier in Morocco.
Under the terms of the agreement, Air Arabia intends to assume management control of the Morocco-based carrier. Air Arabia will apply its successful low cost business model to the management Regional Air Lines.
Together with Air Arabia, Ithmaar Bank, a Bahrain-based investment bank with global reach, will provide a significant capital injection for the Morocco-based carrier and join Air Arabia and Regional Air Lines as partners in the newly created company.
Sheikh Abdullah Bin Mohammed Al Thani, Air Arabia Chairman said: “Air Arabia is currently in the midst of a period of rapid expansion. This agreement provides us with the opportunity to reach into fast-growing markets in North Africa and across the Mediterranean into southern Europe. With a strong presence in the Egyptian cities of Alexandria, Luxor and Assiut, Air Arabia will now be able to expand significantly this coverage area across the EMEA region.”
Mohamed Hassan Ben Salah, Chairman, Regional Air Lines, said: “This agreement marks an important and natural next step in the evolution of Regional Air Lines, which was founded a decade ago to meet the needs of travelers within Morocco and in southern Europe. In partnership with Air Arabia and Ithmaar Bank, we will provide travelers in Morocco and across the EMEA region with far greater choice in selecting efficient and cost-effective travel solutions. Considering that Morocco expects to welcome an estimated 10 million tourists a year by 2010, this is an especially timely announcement. There is also a very large Moroccan diaspora, particularly in Europe, who will benefit when traveling between the Continent and the Kingdom.”
Khalid Abdulla-Janahi, Chairman of Ithmaar’s Board of Directors, said: “Given the financial strength and operational excellence of Air Arabia and the proven track record of Regional Air Lines, we see this agreement as an ideal way to strengthen both carriers. The seamless integration of the operations of the two airlines – along with the financial expertise provided by Ithmaar Bank – will lead to new synergies that will benefit all the partners.”
Ithmaar Bank is serving as the financial advisor and financier for the transaction.

W Weasel

10th Nov 2007, 20:35

In a need to connect hubs, airlines are required to maintain daily inter-hub flights. With the announced new hub in Morocco Air Arabia has made a defacto statement that an aircraft to connect those hubs is needed. The A-320 is incapable of doing so efficiently which means that the winner of the $4 billion dollar ABY aircraft order MUST deliver an aircraft in the mean time to perform such functions.

It is well known that both Airbus and Boeing have a long lead time for aircraft deliveries; however, neither manufacturer wishes to loose such a lucrative order. As a result it is probable that the ingenious management of ABY has negotiated a deal to supplement this hub need with the manufacturer. A-330s are hard to get but B-767s can be had. Each aircraft has the capability to do what would be required but which manufacturer made the deal? And which aircraft will make up the ultimate fleet at ABY?

Stay tuned and find out in 24 hours.

Burners & Out

PHAROH

11th Nov 2007, 16:07

From the press release :
Sheikh Abdullah Bin Mohammed Al Thani, Air Arabia Chairman said: “Air Arabia is currently in the midst of a period of rapid expansion. This agreement provides us with the opportunity to reach into fast-growing markets in North Africa and across the Mediterranean into southern Europe. With a strong presence in the Egyptian cities of Alexandria, Luxor and Assiut, Air Arabia will now be able to expand significantly this coverage area across the EMEA region.”

W Weasel

11th Nov 2007, 17:42

Pharaoh:

I understand your implication however, I must add this. Economically it makes no sense for these cities to be in the game. If you are connecting Europe and NA to the SHJ route structure one must ask the simple question: what passengers? Even the poorest Indian maid in France or Germany will not fly Paris-Rabat-Alexander-Sharjah-Mumbai or any such combination. Every airline on the planet understands such service is unprofitable. We all know our SHJ-Latakya-Allepo-SHJ flight was not extremely profitable: so much so that the company in November discontinued that routing. It is now Sharjah-Latakya-Sharjah and Sharjah-Aleppo-Sharjah as independent flights.

So I still contend that something must be had to connect Morocco and Sharjah directly.

PHAROH

11th Nov 2007, 17:55

W W
Stay tuned and find out in 24 hours.

W Weasel

11th Nov 2007, 18:46

Air Arabia (Sharjah) has reached a new agreement with Regional Air Lines (Casablanca) in order to establish a new base at Rabat. Oddly Regional operates through a Casablanca hub and does not currently serve Rabat. However this will give Air Arabia access to new markets in North Africa, the Mediterranean and southern Europe. Under the agreement Air Arabia will assume management control of Regional. As the first private airline in Morocco, Regional was established in 1996 and commenced operations in July 1997. It currently operates two King Airs, four Beech 1900Ds and four ATR 42-300s on regional routes. Air Arabia will move some of its Airbus A320s to this new operation. It is unclear at this time if Regional will operate under the Air Arabia brand.

http://airlinersgallery.*************/2007/11/air-arabia-to-establish-new-base-in.html

According to AA the new operation WILL operate under the ABY brand.

W Weasel

11th Nov 2007, 19:46

DUBAI (Reuters) - Air Arabia (AIRA.DU: Quote, Profile, Research), the Middle East's largest low-cost carrier, said on Sunday it would raise around $1.6 billion in conventional and Islamic loans and bonds to finance the purchase of about 40 short-haul aircraft.

"We'll make an order in the next couple of days," Air Arabia Chief Executive Adel Ali told Reuters at the Dubai Airshow, which started on Sunday.

"It will be in the region of 40 planes," Ali said. Each plane would cost around $50 million, he said, indicating a total cost of about $2 billion.

Air Arabia said last week it was looking to buy between 34 and 50 aircraft and would choose this month between U.S plane maker Boeing's (BA.N: Quote, Profile, Research) 737s and the A320 from European rival Airbus.

The carrier would borrow about 80 percent of the cost of the planes in a combination of loans and bonds, Ali said, without being more specific.

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressReleasesMolt/idUSL1113985920071111

Looks like a Bus order, unless it was a REALLY good deal from Boeing!

emirmorocan

11th Nov 2007, 22:12

Do you know if they intend to finish the ATR`s in Regional??:ooh:

teghjeet

12th Nov 2007, 05:05

Hence the new payscale.

The mgmt hopes to move a few A320 to this ops and is likely to require crew for the ac.

Any likelyhood of being relocated to casasblanca or morrocco?

W Weasel

12th Nov 2007, 12:04

UAE's Air Arabia orders 34 Airbus A320s, options on 15 more 11.12.07, 7:44 AM ET

DUBAI Thomson Financial - The UAE-based budget airline Air Arabia has ordered 34 Airbus A320 planes and agreed to option 15 more, the two companies said.

The total value of the deal is worth around 3.5 bln usd, company executives said at a news conference during the Dubai air show.

More from Gulf News

Air Arabia chooses Airbus for $3.5b order
By Ivan Gale, Staff Reporter
Published: November 12, 2007, 17:26

Dubai: Budget airline Air Arabia put an end to months of speculation and selected Airbus the $3.5 billion winner of its fleet order.

The Sharjah carrier placed a firm order for 34 A320s with an option for 15 more. By choosing Airbus, Air Arabia opted to stay with the A320 family which currently makes up its fleet of 11 leased aircraft.

The deal will more than triple the size of Air Arabia’s fleet and drive it closer to achieving a goal of flying 50 aircraft by 2015.:hmm: The order did not specify which engine would be used.

Shaikh Abdullah Bin Mohammed Al Thani, Air Arabia chairman, said the purchase would also help the airline become ‘one of the world’s leading low-cost carriers in terms of profit margins, innovation, reputation and operational excellence’

Air Arabia will take delivery of the aircraft starting in 2012, meaning it will have to lease an average of four additional aircraft :ugh: until it receives the new planes. Under its business plan, CEO Adel Ali said the airline plans to fly to 80 destinations by 2015 - more than double its current network of 37 routes.

[Yea, with 43 going to India:yuk: ]

Going forward Ali said new routes would be focused in Central Asia, further into the Middle East and India :{ and Africa, which remains a largely untapped market for the airline.

Recently the carrier announced the purchase of a stake in a Moroccan budget airline and the installation of Air Arabia’s second hub in Rabat. At yesterday’s press announcement Ali told reporters the 49-aircraft order was made to sustain the growth out of its Sharjah hub and not to build a fleet for other hubs. :ok:

Ali said details have not yet been finalized on how much of a stake Air Arabia will ultimately take in the Moroccan carrier, and whether the airline will fly with the Air Arabia livery. But he said it would cater primarily to its domestic Moroccan market, with some routes to Africa and Europe :( and a select few to the Middle East.

inverter

12th Nov 2007, 12:28

HARDLY BEING FRANK! Hey

PHAROH

12th Nov 2007, 15:15

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

Straight-In

12th Nov 2007, 16:17

Just to let all you speculators know that you're all way off...

They will get an A380 and load it up with 900 seats. Then Weasel will fly that on night flights to Rabat and have to deal with 900 pi$$ed off migration workers when he diverts to Alexandria because Rabat airport was closed due to "VIP" movement not mentioned in any NOTAM.

His poor F/O will deal with the onslaught and head bobbing accusations when they realize there are no stairs available in the whole of Egypt that can accomodate them, while the cabin girls, paralyzed with fright, suck their baby bottles in the safety of the locked cockpit.

Keep dreaming...

PHAROH

12th Nov 2007, 17:47

At yesterday’s press announcement Ali told reporters

the 49-aircraft order was made to sustain the growth out of its Sharjah hub

and not to build a fleet for other hubs.

Ali said details have not yet been finalized on how much of a stake Air Arabia will ultimately take in the Moroccan carrier, and whether the airline will fly with the Air Arabia livery.
But he said it would cater primarily to its domestic Moroccan market, with some routes to Africa and Europe and a select few to the Middle East.

sami1

14th Nov 2007, 06:13

What are my chances of joining Air Arabia with 350h TT and an A320 TR ?

all119

16th Nov 2007, 08:32

i am having an interview with air Arabia in few days and it’s the first interview for me please some one help me.
What to expect for the interview?

Thanks :ok:

inverter

16th Nov 2007, 15:00

Dude, with your english writting ability and composing a message, I have to say you are in! Dont worry that much about the interview.
The company would not have to send you for a Level 4 ICAO test either.
Goodluck
INV:D

axialflow

16th Nov 2007, 16:54

'The company would not have to send you for a Level 4 ICAO test either.'

...that will change come March, 2008! ICAO english writtens will be mandatory.

Ax

greendotspeed

27th Nov 2007, 15:54

Has anyone been invited to AA December interview?
May I get some help from others who been to the AA interview on what to study.
Thank you :ok:

JamaicanPilot

10th Dec 2007, 17:20

I guess you were the only one.
Good luck!

greendotspeed

12th Dec 2007, 17:24

:rolleyes:No I have not been invited, if you read the website you will see when interviews are taking place.

gotafix 32

18th Dec 2007, 14:53

Hello gentleman could anyone let me know if air arabia recruits abinitio pilots with CPL/IR/MULTI AND A320 type rating without any hours on type.

Iam not a national/gcc or in house employee . Do I stand a chance??? or how long does a employee has to work to qualify??

Thanks in advance.

greendotspeed

23rd Dec 2007, 18:45

Did anyone go to AA December interview? If yes may you please pm me as much info about the interview, questions asked in the interview, tec exam, personility test and sim flight, thank you.:ok:

Terd Furguson

24th Dec 2007, 06:09

How do you plan on studying for the "personility" test?? :hmm:

Good luck!

Myass

3rd Jan 2008, 07:15

Hi guys, Ive been following this AA thread and there's a lot of good info in here, thanks...

Just got a quick question regarding housing, did any of the pilots bought a flat/Villa in Dubai?

Is it possible for a foreigner to own a house? Do the local banks finance this move?

Is this a wise move? Realstate in the UAE is stable?

One last question...

Have the urge to move and have the ME insight, EY interview coming up soon but after reading all that's going on in there seems not the best company at the present time and not a smart move, currently in SEA as 320 PIC with 11,000US/month, nice place where I am now, but company is horrible with no future, good move to AA?

Thanks...

Thanks...

hasoon

3rd Jan 2008, 18:37

hi,if i hold A320 type i need the line training dose AA do it for me if i pay for it ? dose any one know and sure they do it before i contact them...

greendotspeed

4th Jan 2008, 09:36

Has anyone been invited to the 07-08 January interview?

W Weasel

11th Jan 2008, 08:13

Hey Myass:

Just got a quick question regarding housing, did any of the pilots bought a flat/Villa in Dubai?
Yes

Is it possible for a foreigner to own a house?
Yes

Do the local banks finance this move?
Yes, but restrictions: ie: only on projects they financed the builder etc. Also usually large down payments required.

Is this a wise move? Realstate in the UAE is stable?
Is Real estate a wise move anywhere? In real estate it is timing and location. Location is usually fairly easy to determine; however, the big question is timing. Could you please tell me when a stock will go up or down? Same answer and trust me you will get everything from “it’s a great time to invest” to “wait until the crash and get things for penny on the dollar.”

One last question...

Have the urge to move and have the ME insight, EY interview coming up soon but after reading all that's going on in there seems not the best company at the present time and not a smart move, currently in SEA as 320 PIC with 11,000US/month, nice place where I am now, but company is horrible with no future, good move to AA?

Depends on what company you are coming from. None of the jobs in the ME are all that great (when compared to North America and Europe.) As for Asia, some say once you get over the cultural crap of Asia the jobs are fairly nice; while others say, the ME is better (but there is cultural crap here too.) From what I have heard pay is better in Asia and while it is going up in the ME inflation is out of site in certain staple areas.

AA has had guys come from Vietnam and Silk Air, in that part of the world. Most Vietnam guys say it is much better at G-9 in pay and work but feel some of the BS is the same. The Silk guy couldn’t stand it and left after a few months – so you take your pick. BTW a few others came from Oceania and the PI but they have gone on to other ME carriers.

Pure and simple, you like where you are, you are probably better off. There is a future in AA with all the planes, but the quality of life will never change. It is hard work that gets old real fast for most guys but it depends on what you want.

Many of the F/Os came because they know AA is a fast upgrade. As a matter of fact about a third to half of the Captains came to the company as F/Os (many on this board.) Many of those guys (some upgrading 2-3 years ago) now have enough time to go elsewhere as DEC (and some are going.)

Other F/Os came because they didn’t have the licenses (JAA or FAA ATPs) and came here for the time and licenses. I believe they too will go under certain circumstances.

Some F/O came to get some flight time, upgraded to Captain, got some more time and now are TRIs. A large number of the TRIs at AA – well I flew with them when they were F/Os.

Some Captains and F/Os came for money. Pay is much higher here than in their native country. This group consists mainly of the South Americans (including Mexicans) and Russians (Armenians, Ukrainians etc.) Most are highly experienced with the F/Os having as much as 10+ years experience in their former airline. So for F/Os they came for not only the pay but also the upgrade, which makes them rich!

Some F/Os came as S/Os but now have quite some time. A few went back to Europe and some stayed in the ME but only a couple (that have the time now) are still here.

A few Captains and F/O came because they saw the grass as greener on the other side of the fence - some of them have gone on as well.

A few came on a power trip.

Most of the Europeans and North Americans are now gone. A few of the EU guys got their upgrade and for those remaining they need more time in the left seat. The NAs have returned to Canada in mass. Only three are left and I believe they will all be gone by Spring or Summer 08.

So once again, roll the dice and take your change. Got to go and study for my English Exam.

Burners and Out!

Terd Furguson

11th Jan 2008, 08:53

You must have wrote that just before going to bed....another night flight tonight??? ;)

Good luck on your English test. I hope I pass mine as well....I've been studying hardly!! :ugh:

Cheers.

W Weasel

11th Jan 2008, 09:12

Now having said all that other stuff, the salaries are fairly competitive in the ME. ABY’s rate for Captains with over 2000 hrs in type is 40,500 AED (11,050 US) per month without flight pay. That is what you get if you take vacation (or are out of time due to 900/year) and sit and don’t see the airport for 30 days.

Using the company’s numbers of “85 actual hours is 110 pay hours” is what I used. This is a new rating system so we have little experience with it at this time – give us a few months and we all will know.

Using their data will give you a monthly flight pay of 13,650 AED (3,700 USD) plus 1400 AED ($390) PD. That is not shabby at 55,550 AED ($15,200 US) per month. Remember the UAE HAS NO TAXES so what you make is what you keep (unlike in India.)

The perks are fairly straightforward, LOL, Insurance, School Fees, Bonus, etc. These things (other than bonus) may not increase your salary but reduce your expenses. When you send your children to good schools and don’t have to pay (or if you have a lot of kids only pay a percentage) it helps with the bottom line. Free ticket home, while maybe inconvenient for some, is really nice for those guys living in South America.

Now if the UAE will revaluate their AED (like business has called for nearly a year) then watch those numbers really mean something. 55K AED ($15K US) would quickly become $18,500 – $21,400 US per month – UAE TAX FREE.

I felt that I had to balance my other post with the money side for you mentioned cash in your post. And definitely in the ME just about everyone is here for the cash – nearly everyone.

Burners and out!

W Weasel

11th Jan 2008, 09:16

Not hardly, DMM, RUH, while they are in the dark are definitely not "night" - well at least for pay. But I do get to sleep in my bed at 21:30 LCL

Heard we are starting up KBL again. Are you going this time or am I going to be the only NA again?:bored:

B&O

Terd Furguson

11th Jan 2008, 09:48

Nope...that's all yours my friend. I'll watch for you on CNN Breaking News from my airport layover hotel room in Laguardia. 15 weeks and counting....where did the years go??

No Kabul for me as they are keeping me busy on the sub-continent and other DAY flights. :} Oh, to be senior.............

Cheers.

cheez

11th Jan 2008, 20:49

:cool::cool:Hey Fellas...

Just wondering what the chances are for an old mil guy like me getting on without an A-320 TR.....according to the website I need one but what are the chances? I'm a CAF pilot with loads of jet time (fighter) but no heavy and no TR. Any chance of a TR in return for a bond or even better just a job? I'm looking at Saudi or Cathay so any advice (esp from WW - love your posts) would help.

Thanks gents....post on...:cool:

Flyer34

13th Jan 2008, 16:38

Hi Folks,

How long has it been taking FO's to upgrade at AA?

Flyer34

W Weasel

14th Jan 2008, 19:46

About 1.5 - 2 years, assuming you have the time and licenses.

W Weasel

14th Jan 2008, 19:52

Cheez:

Not too good. A couple of us are old military guys (even a Canadian Herk guy) got on, a few of us centerline thrust only too :ok: BUT, the company does demand guys with 320 (330, 340 etc) time and type for Captains. What the shortage will bring - your guess is as good as mine. But combat in 105s does not count.

Burners and Out

NoJoke

14th Jan 2008, 20:01

Mr W,

I am trying to contact Vince Kehoe, he works for AA as an FO i believe. I tried to PM you but it seems to be blocked. Please PM or help. PS when in the RAF I had no burners ........

W Weasel

14th Jan 2008, 20:11

Oh those Brits - always short changing you on good stuff :) Before the drop it is a reason, after it is an excuse :D

Sure I know Vinnie. Brought him back from Sanna last week on the jumpseat. Crazy guy went to buy some honey.

PM me again and I will forward you info to him

B&O

NIK_

15th Jan 2008, 07:08

Hi,

I have an interview and screening as FO with Air Arabia in the next few weeks.I am type rated on A320 including 1000hrs on type.

i was reading already a lot of great and useful infromation about the company and to be honest, I am impressed.

But I would appreciate any information about the interview e.g. is there any techn. quiz, how many people will be from AA in the interview, how long is it going, is there anything that i can prepare (history of AA)?

Also, some details about the screening. in my last screening I had 5 ! Captains :eek: in the sim, so what can I expect (suppose some dual failures,raw data approach...?)

Thank you :ok:

greendotspeed

17th Jan 2008, 05:38

Any dats yet for the January interviews?

pezetaroi

19th Jan 2008, 03:39

Some Captains and F/Os came for money. Pay is much higher here than in their native country. This group consists mainly of the South Americans (including Mexicans)

Regarding the "Mexicans" most of them are from Mexican LCC's. But the few that have left Aeromexico or Mexicana, have done it to get the left side, not because of the salary...

cameltoe2006

19th Jan 2008, 05:26

Regarding the "Mexicans" most of them are from Mexican LCC's. But the few that have left Aeromexico or Mexicana, have done it to get the left side, not because of the salary...

Which means....MORE MONEY! Get the logic?

pezetaroi

19th Jan 2008, 16:23

What I meant was that the mexican LCC pilots are the ones who are moving out because of money, not the case in Aeromexico (1) or Mexicana (5) which are doing it basically to get the left seat...

W Weasel

19th Jan 2008, 22:47

I can't argue but the guys I fly with say otherwise. Not LCC but mainline Mexicana!

I mean no disrespect to any carrier - most of us are other carriers at some time - whether retired or not; but the facts are the facts. Cash is king in most parts of the world and from what they say, it was cash in one form or another (upgrade is cash.)

B&O

W Weasel

19th Jan 2008, 23:00

Hey has1440:

I'd say you have a very good chance. Not that I am anyone other than a line guy, but from what you said your shot seems good. Once again that simply comes from a line type that has been here a long, long, long, long, long, long, long time. You can never tell what bug has been where on any given day during interviews:O

Big bus is good. I came from the big bus myself and the baby bus is pretty much the same (PRMs are replaced with ELAC, FACs etc) but mostly the same.

As for your question on housing - yes it is paid. Captains get 12,000 a month (about $3,300 US.) You can take it all at once (144K) or included monthly in your salary.

You also get transportation allowance - 1,000 a month ($275 US.) This is oil country so fuel is cheap if you are from NA or EU. No Taxes.

Housing cost is fairly close to Kai Tak - maybe a little cheaper (haven't been there in a few years so I may be out of touch.) Heck you changed the checker board on me:bored:

Hope this answered your ?

B&O

PS I did not answer your basic question. Yes, with you time in type, command time in type and total time - I'd say you are well qualified for a DEC position. Nothing beats a trial but a failure. Try - you have nothing to loose now do you.

But as Dennis Miller says: "But then again I could be wrong!"

W Weasel

19th Jan 2008, 23:50

Hey hevlad:

You ask some hard questions but I will try to answer
them as best I can. Please be assured this is only my
personal opinion.

Let me answer your question as best I can. Your time
is right in line with most of the F/Os hired by the
company, but you know all too well that getting hired
is more than just flight time and ratings. That part
is completely up to you and how much you want the job.

As for the aircraft purchases, you are right. I am
not sure on the numbers (for I have heard different
numbers) but it is somewhere between 34 and 45 planes.
I believe the book values at the Dubai air show was
about $3.5 billion US – google it and find out for
sure. Opportunities abound in the sand pit!

As for upgrading in the first year! Well let me say
this, and once again it is simply opinion – everyone
has one like a butt. Don’t go into an interview with
that attitude for I am sure you will not get into the
door. Surely we all want to get that left seat, but
management does not want to hear that – trust me for
that is 20,000+ hours jet time and 32 years experience
in the airline business (not including Air Force
time.)

But the answer – well not much in this part of the
world is seniority based, but at ABY that is the
exception. You will be upgraded, or checked for an
upgrade, when you have the seniority. It’s your time!
That assumes you have the licenses and time, which
from what you said you do, but you will have to wait
your turn. Now with the planes coming that may not be
too long!

Normal upgrades are going faster than they did years
ago – at least that is the way it appears now. I take
a plane from a captain that, it seems, last week he
was flying right seat. But then again the fall of the
Soviet Union seems like yesterday to a fart like me.

Realistically, it seems like it is about 1.5 to 2
years to upgrade. The good part is that it does
happen. A very large part of our Captains flew with
me “yesterday” as F/Os.

Now your statement on housing allowance – is it
enough? You are a pilot and you should know by now it
is never enough! If it is, give me your next raise
for I have a teenage daughter (yes the sperm count is
still high) that can spend it for you. Look back on
my previous posts and you will see information on my
place. It’s over 450 sq meters (5,000 sq feet) of
family home with a separate 3 bedroom, 2 baths and
kitchen for servants – I only have 2.

You will hear that our allowance is not even in the
ball park of what it costs. What do you want? I live
in a nice upper middle class area, quiet with all the
amenities right next door. What do you want? For me,
and that is just for me, it is fine. I am a Captain
and an F/O’s housing allowance would leave me with
extra cash in my pocket, not alone my allowance. But
then again I have that teenage daughter.

As for the ATPL, you will need a GCAA license. If you
have an FAA, CAA or JAA license it will transfer
automatically, but you will have to take a local Air
Law exam – no sweat.

Hope this helps.

Burners and Out

W Weasel

20th Jan 2008, 00:03

Greendot:

I have no info on the hiring process. Couldn't begin to answer what questions are asked etc, BUT I can tell you the interview dates. I am a Captain and we know all that info. Well that is what I tell my wife:)

Next date is the 28th - 29th of Jan. You can find all the dates on the web site. http://www.airarabia.com/careers.html Good Luck!

B&O

W Weasel

20th Jan 2008, 01:13

It hasn't been two hours and I'm already received incoming. I figured I would get some flack on the housing opinion, but I stand by what I said. Several of our guys PMed me and disagreed. But here is what I say. I put it publicly for what I said before was also public.

I was accused of not fully disclosing myself. Well I felt every pilot at ABY knows who I am – at least those on the board.

OK for full disclosure to the rest of you. I retired from one of the largest airlines in the USA. I get a nice retirement check (deferred for USA tax purposes,) but I DO NOT SUBSIDIZE MY LIVING HERE WITH ANYTHING! I did work next door (EK,) before ABY, until we S-canned each other. They did not like me, my attitude and I was not going to put up with their BS - I worked in the “real world.”

Yes, I did meet a few “locals” over the years and one is a partner in another business I have here. That business, while gaining me some access, also does not subsidize my living – I DO NOT TAKE ONE CENT FOR CURRENT PERSONAL USE!

I live exactly like every other pilot at ABY and anyone that knows me, knows I dance to a different drummer. I do not follow the party line I simply fly airplanes.

One repeated theme was my ownership of company stock. That is true I do own a lot of stock, but please understand. When I came, the company was a baby. No one knew who Air Arabia was not alone wanted to fly on them. Yes, I personally talked with the CEO and asked about stock – it was in his plan. Mr. Ali is a man of his word and has an open door policy for EVERY pilot. You may not like the answer, but you can take it to the bank, unlike most CEOs I have known over the years (as an ALPA member, I walked the line with the Continental guys in October 83 over Frank Lorenzo)

So yes, I bought stock and currently I own a lot of it. I have pilot friends at FedEx (SD) and Southwest (LF) that made a killing with stock in a company that had a good idea. I am not saying Adel Ali is a Fred Smith or Herb Kelleher, but he is pretty sharp. I simply wanted to ride his coat-tails and he gave EVERY pilot the SAME opportunity to do that.

You can take a horse (or camel) to water; but you can not make it drink the water.

The quarter of a million shares was given to every Captain and the ability to buy additional cheap shares was offered to every pilot – I simply took advantage and bought a whole lot more – I am not ashamed for it was NOT SPECIAL TREATMENT.

But please guys think about it. If my statements were based upon my portfolio, do you think, as a stockholder I would care WHO flies the planes? Do you think I would give a S about housing for pilots, skeds, benefits etc? I have been instrumental in many of the programs here at G9 in an attempt to make it better for the pilots (mostly unsuccessful but a few triumphs.)

So in full disclosure, I stand by my facts. Yes if you want to live in the high rent district of Dubai, you will loose in the housing game – heck the medium rent district today. AIR ARABIA IS BASED IN SHARJAH! No, I repeat, no airline in the world cares where you live, but where you live is directly proportional to your quality of life.

You want to live close to work, in nice areas, close to good schools where your kids don’t have to spend an hour on a bus to and from school; housing will cost you a fraction. Your choice! I know all the arguments, it does not matter. You can tell me a Romeo & Juliet is bad for my health but I LIKE CIGARS! So you can be healthy and die like Jim Fix or I can go out like George Burns.

My Argument by which I stand:

It IS FULLY POSSIBLE TO FIND A LARGE VILLA (OVER 300 SQ METERS) FOR UNDER 120K A YEAR! (120 is a high number for they exist – new units – under a 100 but you have to look. Not where every one else from your country is living, but they exist. Think outside the box guys – well I guess we do drive a bus – TCAS below! WHY at 260?

You have the lead

Burners and Out

cameltoe2006

20th Jan 2008, 04:09

W Weasel,

The beer is freezing cold! Cheers buddy!

Camel

greendotspeed

20th Jan 2008, 09:27

I would like to know how many people will get called for the interview. Hope I am one.
Good luck to all.

W Weasel

23rd Jan 2008, 21:27

I got tons of PMs and will try to answer all of you in the next few days. This is ABY and we have little time to chat:) Well if we have family and all that other stuff airlines don't think we need.

For my friend at Cathy, I will give you my opinion ASAP for I fully understand your situation.

GTG

B&O

W Weasel

26th Jan 2008, 18:38

Hey guys I am really sorry for taking so long to get back with you. Let me address your issues as best I can.

Golgaholic:

First things first: Pitch and Put 11 minutes from SHJ airport. 18 holes (opening in 2009) 3 minutes from my place - yeah!

Ok on to your questions.

1.) Is Sharjah a good place to live in terms of shopping, amenities,
cinemas, schools and driving to work?”

“I do not know what exactly you are asking. Is SHJ a DXB, then the answer is a resounding NO! Is it better that Pueblo Colorado, then the answer is a resounding YES!

You mentioned your family (I purposely left that out.) I have 4 kids ranging in age from 16 to 7. OK I robbed the cradle and my wife is a lot younger than me but I don’t shoot any blanks.

You will get a lot of different opinions on SHJ but for me it quite fine I will say. But then I dance to a different drummer. Everything you mention; shopping cinemas, schools is all right here and some of the best you will find.

“2.) I know ABY works you hard there (not a problem because they work me
hard here too but I feel they aren't paying me the industry standard.)
But will I find time to see my kids grow up during my days off or
standby days?”

OK ABY is not the airline you are use too. You will be home every night but you will fly every day. It is as close to an 8-5 job as you can find in the airline industry. Having said that it is not 8-5 but more like 6-9!

You will have plenty of time off if you use it wisely. You go on a BAH or KWI you will leave at 7:30 AM and be home at noon. Plan it wisely and you have the rest of that day to do what you want. If you fly LONG trips (10-12 hour duty days) – well you will get your time in quick in a month and then have more days off that month. It is all up to you.

The great thing about ABY (for me) is that there is no lost productivity. That said you “strap on an airplane” and when you un-strap you go home. No wasted time sitting waiting for a connecting plane, etc. Your duty time will be very close to your flight time (excluding check in and check out.) You fly (block) 8 hours, your duty time is less than 9 (excluding check in and out.) Including those 2 you got 10:15.

When I say you go to work at 7AM and get home at noon you just blocked 3.5 hours and got paid for 4.

3.) What are the rents like for a 4-bedroom apartment at Buheira/
Corniche or is there really a 4 bedroom villa in Sharjah that the allowance
can cover? Do you know of a website I can find for rentals in Sharjah?

Talk the cornice - you are talking high rent district. I am not a good source for the rents there for there are guys on the sight who live there and can give you much better info.

I can talk about my place and it is 5 minutes from the airport – traffic or not. 6 bedrooms, 7 bath, plus 3 maid’s rooms about 5000 sq ft. on a half acre lot! Bells and whistles included and it is 95K a year. Corniche I believe you might get 2 bedrooms for that?

4.) With regards to the flying pay, if I work 80 hours flat for a
month(240dirhams per hour) and the average credit pay of 110 hours, am I
right to say that I would earn AED26400(240 times 110)? Or am I
calculating this wrong?

YOU ARE CALCULATING IT WRONG! The pay for Capt’s (flight pay that is) 30,60,120,240 for 0,25,50,75 hours. In other words you get 30 Dhm for each hour below 25, 60 Dhm for each hour between 25-50, etc. So it you fly 100 hours you get 11,250. (750 first 25, 1500, 2nd 25; 3000 3rd 25 & 6000 last 25.) Now the new pay scale has things moved. It is scheduled hours not actual. In other words if a two sector flight is scheduled for 5 hours 10 minutes you get paid 6 hours. Do it in 4 hours and 45 minutes you still get 6 hours (differences for holding, diversions etc.) But in order to fly 100 hours NOW, you will get paid very well – very well.

Of course you get basic which is 40K plus for a Captain (those of us around a while we get seniority pay which adds several thousand dirham to our base.)

So a ball park figure for a new DEC, flying 80 hours block for 100 pay, is about 53,000 AED (or $15,000 US.) You got kids the school allowance went up too.
TAX FREE!

5.) Is Air Arabia really (in your own view) the 'Southwest of the
Middle-East' because if they are, I’d love to work for a great airline like
that?

Capt Lou Freeman and Capt Sam Davis (both retired like me) have been friends for over 35 years. Lou is SWA class of 74 while Sam is FedEx class of 76. I can not tell whether the career my friends had is what one can expect at ABY, but what I can say is I received my pilots license October 9, 1967 and I have been earning my living flying airplanes since I got my Air Force command wings in 1971.

I believe ABY has a good business plan and if they do not screw it up, then they have a good future. I will say this pure and simple. I am retired and I got a check other than ABY. Let the CEO and DO leave – Burners and Out for this boy!

Hope that helps!

"shiny_shoes

What is it like living out in the ME all year round, lifestyle etc

Well it is hot as a fart in an old man’s pants in the summer and cold as the hairs on a polar bear’s ass in the winter!

Now lifestyle – well what is your lifestyle. Guys that is a question that is like pimples on a teenager’s face – each one is different but they all are white. You got everything you can imagine here.

There is one simple saying that hits it right on the head. You know you have lived in the Middle East too long when you think everyone’s first name is “AL.”

”and how easy is it for wives to settle into the new country? “

OK are you asking how easy is it for wives or how easy for YOUR WIFE? I’m married to a Russian 20++++ years younger than me and you want to ask me about wives. You know why there is abuse with women – THEY JUST DON’T LISTEN!

We had a New Years party in our home with over 100 folks. A live band, catered food and a whole lot of fun. Many folks from work but an equal amount from SHJ. My wife got drunk, did the Russian wolf dance along with one of our Captains, I hugged his wife and my daughter ran off with their son – where are they anyway?

We had a great time and it was fully western. A full service bar, food, dancing and all – SHJ is what you make of it and it is what your wife makes of it.

greendotspeed

Man I have no idea how many they call for interview nor how many get picked out of a class. The numbers are simple. 43 airplanes coming in about 6 years. Currently short of pilots every day. Block time will be 900 a year (meaning pay about 1100 a year +/-) Upgrades – dam I can’t see how fast they are happening. Every time I take a plane from someone, the Captain flew F/O for me only a few months ago. I don’t know the exact numbers but about 30-40% of Captains were F/Os in the company (and we have only been around 4 years.) Some Captains (on this board) have been in the left seat 2+ years.

chiggii

P.O. Box 132 Sharjah, UAE
Captain Nabeel (sp), Yasser or Mohamed Ahmed are the bosses (check the spelling on the names for I just say it I don’t write it.)

"Pluto's gone

Pluto I will respect you desire to remain – unknown, but let me say this – it will not help you in the business. Remember we work with gears, pulleys, round dials – ok then FMGCs, MCDU – BUT my point is the squeaky wheel gets the grease. From what you say – go do it! “Nothing beats a trial but a failure.” Don’t ask, don’t get.” A bush pilot – oh god I remember when I was young enough to be a real bush pilot – blond bush, red bush, bla—oh yes: that time was great. Get the ATR but ask now. If you have to ask again – then do what you have to do and ask again – it is that simple.

Remember, most major airline pilots on this planet were someone’s rejection. Well that is unless daddy or their government gave them the job.

has1440

I will write to you privately, but hang in their buddy. You got far too much for anyone here and we need to talk about well you know what.

You got the lead,

Weasel is Burners and Out

greendotspeed

28th Jan 2008, 13:12

Did anyone go to AA interview on the 28th Jan 08 If yes what did they ask in the interview and the written test?

W Weasel

28th Jan 2008, 16:37

Hey Guys and Gals:

“What did ABY ask in the interview?”

I can’t answer this question but I can say what I know about the company. For those of you worried about “what are the questions” and “what do they want to know” – I will say this pure and simple. I’m a company stick and rudder guy, but I am not a numbers guy. Those that know me know I can care less “what kind of hair is the hair that is between the speed brake lever.” As for me it was the hair of my last girl friend – course, sweet and really wet!

I don’t care if you can tell me about what ever; I care it you can fly a plane. What the company wants – well know about my girl friend’s hair! Technical knowledge is a really big thing here. I may not agree with it but if you want the job you better know it – you are competing with guys and gals that do!

The questions you should be asking is “what do you want of me?” ABY is a low cost airline and they get the most out of all of us. That’s ok since some of us are (BIG SMILE) stock holders. As the phrase says –you want a piece of this – well please the bosses and the old grumpy Captains flying the line and you'll do fine

You got the lead;

B&O

greendotspeed

28th Jan 2008, 17:03

Thanks W.W.

I was told by someone that the January interviews was off. Is that correct?
Does the company mind if someone walks in and present himself for employemnt?
I am typed rated, hold a (UAE ATPL) and FAA ATP with the A320 type rating. No time on type but 4500 hrs total. I need a job asap.
What should I do?
W.W may you pm me I tried to pm you and did not get through.

W Weasel

28th Jan 2008, 17:10

Greendot:

I would say:

ABSOLUTELY YES! But that is just me. You seem to have good time but please understand I don't make the choices. You have a lot of what the CO wants. Type, License, ATP etc - so just for me I would say get your butt to SHJ and wear your best suit and ask for the job. The most they could say is NO!

B&O

greendotspeed

28th Jan 2008, 18:05

Thanks W.W

I will find my butt there asap.

May I please call you to chat a bit.

Thanks

beluga0703

29th Jan 2008, 11:20

Just wondering in my case I am a captain on a320. My total on a320 is 3000 hours but my command on type is only 850 hours. Does my pay scale go to the category of more than 2000 hours on type?

W Weasel

29th Jan 2008, 18:26

Greendot:

PM me and I'll give you my number and sure we can chat!

W Weasel

29th Jan 2008, 18:38

beluga0703

I love the fishy taste. I don’t think you would qualify but that is up to management. 2000 in type means 2000 in type in seat and your 850 would put you under a grand. However, the good news is you need only about 1.5 months to get to 1K and the next payscale if you got on board.

At ABY it does not take long to get time in type or seat. It is pretty sure you will do 900 a year or darn close – we fly a lot. With all the expansion going on that will not be a problem and the nice thing about the company is that what they say is what they do – you can take that to the bank!

Now you may not like the answers to your questions but the bosses are honest and will tell you the truth – a nice thing in this business.

But come on board. If you like to fly and are willing to work – well then it is a fun place. Do your job, do it safely and the company will take care of you very well. The Pass people, the schedulers and even the HR people try to accommodate you when you need to. From a personal point that is worth its weight in petro.

Good luck,

Burners and Out!

emirmorocan

29th Jan 2008, 18:55

Can anyone give me any news about the agreement with RegionalMaroc?
The hub in Rabat? etc etc:confused:

greendotspeed

29th Jan 2008, 20:01

W.W

I tried to pm you but it was not allowing me to send, what should I do?

W Weasel

29th Jan 2008, 20:30

send a message to [email protected]

A PPrune address and I will get back to you PM.

greendotspeed

30th Jan 2008, 07:03

I sent an email to the address you gave me. Let me know if you got it. Thanks.

emirmorocan

1st Feb 2008, 13:47

Can anyone give me any news about the new hub in Morocco(Rabat or Casablanca maybe)? When does it start? If It starts...:confused:

greendotspeed

9th Feb 2008, 10:33

Hello all, day after tomorrow I have an interview with AA and would like to get as much info on it. May you all pm me of questions to study for on the written exam. Thanks a million.:ok:

inverter

9th Feb 2008, 10:57

:confused: hey greendot, are you for real:\
glad that you woke up a few days before your interview. you got the job man. keep it up. why study now?
INV

dash8pilotCanada

9th Feb 2008, 11:36

Does AA hire guys who dont have an A320 but have lots of time flying other jets?? I got 2700TT and 600 JET on the MD82.. Do have any chance??:eek:

greendotspeed

9th Feb 2008, 12:26

Inverter, I was only called a few days back from the short list. No I woke up since I became a pilot, you never know when an airline will call you. Thanks for being so nice about your comments, it hit the spot. If you look at other parts of Pprune you will see I posted as well. Thanks once again:ugh:.
Help would be nice. :ok:

Dash8
Call the HR of AA and talk to them, that is what I did a few months back. Good luck:ok:

PHAROH

10th Feb 2008, 10:39

greendotspeed (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=205396)

:D

greendotspeed

2nd Mar 2008, 11:32

How many people are going to Air Arabia interview tomorrow? Good luck to all.

A320PLT

17th Mar 2008, 19:42

WW,

You know big Lou Freeman! Lou and I go back a few years. He and I belong to the same organization. The last time I saw Lou was back in 05 in DTW at a convention. Well if you are a friend of Lou's the you can't be too bad:)

After reading some of your comments on AA and that you were a firend of Big Lou's I felt compelled to apply. I am sure that with my time in type I will get a call, 3000 in the A320.

I can't follow the way you explained how the pay works. I would rather come in as DEC however without the mins on left seat time I feel that ain't gonna happen:=. So coming in if I read the web site correctly at plus the 2000 hr mark I would move to the higher tier of the pay scale, what can I make realistically?

BTW I would love to be home every night and I need a home very close to what you have so let me get the number of your realtor:D

A320PLT

Spoogie

4th Apr 2008, 05:49

Hey W Weasel..you seem to be the man with the info on AA. I did an interview with AA in March...did not do a sim eval because they say I am not type rated. Is this the norm at AA? If this is so, do I lose points in the long run? I have a UAE ATPL and I have over 4000hours with just under 2000 PIC time. I am not an UAE national but I live in the UAE. Please advise. I have not heard from them as yet.....

legion319

7th Apr 2008, 03:10

Hi Weasel ,
I am Captain in Fla on the 320 and I am coming to my Inter with ABY in june , could you tell me what to expect ? where do you take your FAA medical ? do you have a medical clinic at ABY?.

Thanks much in advance

mikehagen

10th Apr 2008, 17:27

Hi W Weasel and ABY Insiders,

My wife (34), 3 year old kid and I are considering moving up to Dubai after myself being offered a job up there. My wife has a job at home country flying 737-300 EFIS in an arline much like ABY (no layovers). She is captain rated yet still minimal command time, ICAO ATPL, over 4,400 hrs total and over 4,200 in the mini boeing but no A320 rating. She also holds a college degree.

If we could find a way to get her into ABY, heaven doors would wide open for us and definitely make the move to Dubai a no brainer!

Any Insider ideas as to her options? Tried to PM WWeasel unsuccesfully. If an Insider would be kind enough to PM us we would greatle appreciate it.

Greetings to all from Mexico!:ok:

highflyer73

11th Apr 2008, 08:39

Hi,

Anyone who has been to AA interview recently, can you please give an idea on the interview process. What to expect in the 2 days?

Thanks.

Spoogie

11th Apr 2008, 09:20

Are you type rated on the A320 and if so how much time on type?

king320

12th Apr 2008, 22:08

Hello,

Would be much obliged if I could be directed to the thread containing info about AA interview.

Thanks

horsethief

14th Apr 2008, 10:28

Hello guys On May I´m going to interview with Etihad and I´m trying also to match with AA. Any advisory about both companies? As I´m reading the grass looks greener on AA.
I´m a FO 6200TT 2000A320 currently working on the fareast :cool:

frieghtdog

24th Apr 2008, 03:04

whats the upgrade rules and requirement for F.O at AA.

thanks

frieghtdog

1st May 2008, 18:45

any pilots at AA can give us some feed back.

thanks

green01

3rd May 2008, 05:45

Hi Horsethief
!!!Didi you go to AAi nterview?? I'm gonna go in July..
Can you give some tips??How was it???
How was your feelings regarding the company??Did you like??
Tks and nice Flights...
green01:rolleyes:

capt-Purple

26th May 2008, 15:27

Greetings,

I've just got the call and was informed that I was selected and will be joining Air Arabia in July!!! YES!!!

As this is our first time moving to the Middle East I am seeking any info on Sharjah and the surrounding area from those of you who have made the move already, any help would be gladly appreciated.

Info requesting.

1. Where is the best area to find a 2-3-bedroom flat/villa within 15-20 min from the Sharjah Airport?

2. What would a 2 or 3 bedroom flat/villa cost per month/year average and what is required to move in, down payment amount, time frame etc, getting satellite/internet connection?

3. International schools? Are any of the school's in the area better then the other, the cost per year and would the allowance amount cover the school cost? we are moving from the Uk with a 5 and 7 year old

4.Buying a car/getting a driver’s license? What is that process like and how long is it?

Thanks a million

cant wait to get there............

flytoparis

30th May 2008, 19:24

:ok:First of all thanks for your excellent and interesting postings (took me a night to read them all) Just one open question what do you mean with 8-5 / 6-9 rosters you mentioned earlier??? Confused!!! I am on 332/343 and seriously consider joining AA..

Many thanks and keep on writing

W Weasel

31st May 2008, 23:13

Hey Chuch416:

I have to be honest, I don’t understand SIC. For me SIC means Second Officer or FE and I am sure you are not old enough to know (or use) that terminology:O

Now for your DEC qualifications? I do not know what you mean by SIC? Is this PIC time? If it is you can get a job as Captain in 24 hours – we need to hire hundreds. If it is F/O time well then you would probably come on (in 24 hours) as a F/O. If it is second officer or flight engineer time – training time - well you may have a problem.

Now for ABY! With the new pay scale it is a well paid job. It is possible for a Captain to make $16-$17K a month. YES it is hard flying, very hard and you do not have the life you would have at EK or EY but you can make the cash – if that is what you want! The negative is that you will make $13K whether you want to or not – we fly hard. However, a new hired Capt with a couple thousand hours in the left seat will make $11K a month while on vacation for 30 days and not flying 1 hour.

The future of the company is – well a crystal ball. Currently we have 14-15 planes (I don't know if "November" came yet,) but when I came here we had 2. We have about 200 pilots now with hiring plans for hundreds more by Jan 2010. 34 planes are on the books by 2012-14 but that is already exceeded. We are picking up planes from Vueling all the time - we bought 4 from them the last few months that were not in ABY’s plans 12 months ago.

Now your statement implies you have been around for a while. Yes it is not bad for kids and the school allowance is only a 100K a year and inflation is crazy. But what do you want? If you have the PIC time I personally believe (and that is all it is, my belief) you can get hired ASAP – but remember it will never be NWA!

Burners and Out!

W Weasel

31st May 2008, 23:27

Hey A320PLT:

You say “Big Lou!” He is smaller, lighter, and uglier than me. We pushed back a few at the OBAP meeting back in Detroit in 1989 and have never looked back. Ask him about that ebony beauty I chased for about 4 hours, only to find out – well ask him?

Come on board – we are a diverse group that like Lou's bunch at SWA in 72 are trying to do the same

B&O

W Weasel

1st Jun 2008, 00:05

Hey guys:

I come on and see tons of messages asking questions: I apologize to all of you. I can not answer all individually for, while being a pilot, I do have a life

For those of you that have an interview study; for those of you that had one – you know what you need. ABY is a great place, far better than EK or EY. NO you will not fly an A-380 here but a plane is a plane – show me the money! True we are getting bigger and that creates the problems with knowing each other, scheduling and operations; but it is still fun. When it is not I will be the first to tell the forum it is not!

I was fortunate to go through the growth of the 70s and 80s in the USA. That was a great time. Upgrades in 2-3 years. Well few of us have that opportunity to experience that in a lifetime not alone twice in the same lifetime. It is happening here and guys, it may change, but it is happening right now. Every day we go to work and something new (GREAT) is announced. The company made $100 million last quarter or we are buying 3 planes from ABC airlines (I believe we have more planes from Vueling than they have.)

Yes, yes, yes we complain about the schedule (roster) and the flying (I have 99 hours in June) but we never complain about the cash. My 99 hours pays 132 hours or about $5,200 above my guarantee ($12,000) not including per diem [which we don’t spend since we do day trips ($410)]!

Now think about this! We are allowed to fly 900 hours a year. Please multiply 99 hours in one month by 12 months? That’s right – you will fly about 8.5 – 9 HARD months a year and then what? Oh my gosh, I have to take 2-3 months off.

Yes assuming you take no vacation (45 days a year off) you will run out of time in 9-10 months unless you "slow down" the flying when you get close - it does happen. Take vacation during the year and it may extend the time you fly a year - your monthly time may decrease. Not necessarily, for this month I personally took 14 days leave (18 days off,) flew 72 hard hours (about 5+ hours a day) and got paid 91 hours.

Now I know guys will say you have to fly 30 days a month to make the big bucks. I suggest to those of you that believe that, you simply go to Airarabia.com and look at the schedule. You fly a Colombo, Sri Lanka out and back and it takes you 9 hours but you get paid 13.5 hours. Now don’t get your draws up for this is not the only flight. Over half of our flights are like this and pay 10.5 hours for a 6:15 flight or 12 hours for 7:25…etc!

So do the math – you are pilots – well pilots are bad at math but you are very good at cash. Math is cash and you fly 1 flight for 8 hours block (much more pay) and you have 96 hours over a 12 day period! Oh my gosh, I’m out of time in 9 months!

It works guys, hope to see you on the line. But as Dennis Miller says: “Then again I could be wrong!”

B&O

W Weasel

1st Jun 2008, 00:38

Hey Capt Purple:

PM me, we'll talk!

Welcome aboard and am looking forward to having a few with you at Kempinski’s. PM me and I will give you the scoop on schools, housing, cars, etc. You are in for a different world. A world where the gas prices just went up for 94 octane to a buck and a quarter – we hate it.

Quick and dirty.

Schools: Australian school on National Paints Road – you’ll learn about direction when you get here

Housing: what do you want? Big villas (4000 sq ft+) are right around the airport (I live less than 4 minutes from the employee parking lot and never hear a plane – you’ll understand when we meet.) DON”T GO TO THE CORNICHE! Long drive and our schedule, daily flying, will drive you crazy.

Cars: In this part of the world you are Bill Gates! Banks and companies will go crazy for your business. Let them know you are a Pilot – the doors open faster than they do for Warren Buffet in the USA. It is quite nice and you will like it.

Driving License: you have a USA or EU license – it converts directly and you have no test. If not you may have to take a driving test. My wife simply took her USA license and got a UAE license – DAM I was hoping that would not happen:-)

B&O

W Weasel

1st Jun 2008, 01:06

Hey Mike Hagen:

Sorry to say, while your wife is very qualified she will probably have a low chance at ABY. Yes, 4 years ago we could not get a pilot with jet time not alone Capt time; but today the applications are piled a mile high. The company can pick and choose from those with not only time in the baby bus but a lot of time in the left seat in the bus. I do not want to misrepresent that which may be a possibility but as I have said before, that is what I believe.

Now if she has 73 time and you are interested in this part of the world – well look at India. Not only may she get the job but Jet Airways may put her into a Boeing 777. Looking for boeing drivers big time.

Now I don’t want to push you away from our little operation, but I have to be honest. Bus drivers are needed, others need not apply today!

You may have her consider Royal Jet. Big time BBJ operation out of Abu Dhabi and they have a decent life:bored:

B&O

W Weasel

1st Jun 2008, 01:23

I now understand the question asked about 8-5 or 9-6. What I meant was that a standard job any Smuck would have from 8-5 is not what you will get at ABY. When I said it is 9-6, I meant you will work longer than Joe Smuck!

Don’t be afraid of a 10 hour duty day at ABY. If you are – well go to Emirates! A short day is 5-7 hours and a normal day is 10+. So when I mention the time I was saying, as I believed most pilots understand, we work different hours – 7AM to 9PM or 9PM to 7AM you pick your poison.

You have the lead

PHAROH

1st Jun 2008, 11:40

WW
finally you showed up.let me guess you finshed your 900 hrs

all119

2nd Jun 2008, 10:37

I did my interview with air arabia in nevember 2007 for the AB-initio pilot got reply form them beginning of jan that I was selected and still now I havent heard form them to start TR.

They told us on the day of the interview that we have to wait for 2 months to one year for TR if we got selected .can any one here who is working with air arabia help me I just want to know when I am going to start i have been wating now for more than 7 months.

Thanks in advance

W Weasel

2nd Jun 2008, 22:05

All119

Hiring is going crazy with all the new planes and routes (a new route announced today with 4 more in the next few days.) The company’s priorities are to fly planes and carry people. As a result the training department is going absolutely crazy. Several of my friends in the department are pulling their collective hair out.

First priority is to get new hired Captains and F/Os on the line to fly. Second priority is to get the upgrade F/Os through the long and arduous process of upgrading - about 6-7 in various stages as I write. The last priority is to get S/Os into the program. I have no idea how many pilots are being hired weekly but every time I go to ops or fly with a new guy, the employee numbers are getting out of control.

So in typical airline fashion, the ultimate job is to fly the folks and make the cash. I would suggest you, politely, contact ABY and ask for an update on your situation.

Best of luck,

B&O

toro11

4th Jun 2008, 00:45

simple question:

Whats the captain (1500 hours on type)pay at the end of the month flying around 80 hours excluding house allowance and the rest of the benefits,

And including all benefits?

Thanks folks

flytoparis

4th Jun 2008, 20:55

I have read all your post about rostering but do you also have a minimum amount of off days per month?? What would you say is the average?

Have also heard that AA is looking for volunteers within the company who are willling to go to KTM. Do you think it will affect rostering in terms of overnights there (or maybe ongoing flights to the Far East)if they can t find enough..

Again many thanks for your help + time to answer..

Cheers:ok::ok::ok:

Paris

legalize

5th Jun 2008, 01:34

Does any one know the pay scale for Dispatch and operations within Air Arabia?

320AETOS

6th Jun 2008, 03:31

Hi all

Does anyone have any info on what the captain interview is like?

THX

A320PLT

6th Jun 2008, 19:21

Thanks WW. I have known Big Lou oh check that "little Lou" for several years. In fact the last time I saw him which seems like now only at OBAP conventions he did look much smaller.

I have been invited to an interview there at Air Arabia and was planning AUG but may do it sooner than that. If you get the chance drop me a pvt message as I have a couple of questions for you.

Thanks

A320PLT

skmarz

7th Jun 2008, 02:26

One quick question, is there a bond? If so, how much?

Second question, for those who are willing to respond......EK or Air Arabia? Or did I just ask a ridiculous question?

Sorry if I did, still new to researching the Middle East Airlines and I have a lot to learn......

Thanks

wanax

7th Jun 2008, 06:08

WW et al -

What constitutes "currently on the A320"? Am a current TR 320 puke but may be embarking on a brief ME military tour of duty. If I'm outa cockpit for a bit...show stopper?

Also, must one relinquish one's seniority number from US Deathstar airlines upon date of hire? Just keeping my options open :O.

Great gouge here. Thanks for showing the love. :ok:

KRUGERFLAP

8th Jun 2008, 10:53

Dear felow pilots of Air Arabia,

Do you know how many acft will be leased before the order of the 49 Airbus(Dubai air Show 2007) starts to arrives in 2012?

I saw this old news bellow and i´d like to know if it´s a good idea for senior fo in the region type rated in the a320 but current flying the A330 to go to Air Arabia.

"Because Air Arabia will take delivery of the aircraft starting in 2012, meaning it will have to lease an average of four additional aircraft until it receives the new planes. " Gulf news - nov 2007

As far as i know they got 1 or two a320 from Vueling,so only two/three more until 2012,is that right?,If so i think the upgrades will slow down until mid 2011,please prove me wrong,i had enough of long haull and i need a change for the left seat faster than in my present employer who just change the rules and no more uogrades on the same fleet,so i have to move to A320 when my time comes,so i prefer to join Air Arabia,because i think the TTU is lower:ok:

Thank You,

KF

Spoogie

8th Jun 2008, 15:19

KF

sounds like u wanna leave ABU DHABI to go to Sharjah?

320windrider

11th Jun 2008, 22:23

krugerflap , AA bought 3 planes from vueling and 1 is on lease and still at least 2 more aircrafts to be deliverd from TLS this year , untill the deliverys begin in 2012 , AA will recieve minimum 3 to 4 aircrafts per year if not more , so dont worry about being upgraded.. there will be pleanty of planes to fly ...

320 star

12th Jun 2008, 03:52

the last Vueling A/C came with 13 F/Os (Spanish+ French)so i guess no more F/Os until Sep, but they are still short of Captains which means fast track upgrade to accommodate the 4 to 6 A/C growth/year:ok:

KRUGERFLAP

12th Jun 2008, 17:21

Thanks for the insight!

C ya

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 07:49

Hey Oosik:

No sweat about the log books. As a retired Capt that is not a problem. You have to remember this part of the world is British:-( You have to “renew your instrument rating” under that British lock-step and you need to have your log book “signed.” Yea all that JAA crap! You know, 100 years of tradition unaffected by progress!

Well not to worry. Signing logbooks, like a 200 hour student pilot is truly insulting; but the British system seems to feel that it is “quite cheerie old boy.” So here is what you do. Contact you former CP (if he is still around.) If not get a fleet manager, director of operations or VP of Flight to sign your timesheets; you probably are friends with them or at least senior and they are happy to have you retire:-) Your sheets will have all the necessary info and you will only have to separate block time from pay time.

If that fails, bring any data showing you are retired and how many years you flew as a pilot. The world knows a pilot for a major US carrier averages about 400-600 block hours a year (not pay but block.) If you flew 25-30 years – well you do the math but suffice it to say you have a solid 5 figures of flight time.

You can bring your military log books and do a simple 1.15 conversion which most companies feel is fine. Bring a copy of your DD-214s as well and that will be sufficient.

Now for Airbus procedures – they are really funny. Most of the airlines over here are extremely different from what you are use to. They do not develop training the way you know it. As a result, they use manufacturer’s documents. FCOMS are a compilation of a ton of different books. Unlike in the USA where everything you need to know is in one volume, you may have to look in 4-5 books for data on one system. Then you still don’t know if you have everything. Also manufacturers write books as manufacturers, not airlines. They are written by lawyers for liability purposes and as such they are written intentionally vague and disjointed. Very disturbing for people who worked for major western airlines!

Having said that, a lot of the procedures used in training (chapter 18) of your pilot handbook (aka aircraft manual) are probably very similar to Airbus SOPs. Come on how many different ways can you do an engine failure? How many different ways can you read and do an ECAM memo? Aviate, navigate, and communicate works using any procedures on any plane; so just fly the plane and you’ll do fine!

To answer your question about giving it a shot, here is my opinion. JUST FLY THE PLANE! You will get a sim ride and who in the world cares what you say (throttle, thrust lever, power levers, go poles or motor sticks) just push them when you want to go and pull them back when you want to stop.

While what is called system knowledge will be an integral part, the ultimate need is for excellent pilots. Guys like you, who have experience that can not come out of a book. Guys who can fly the airplane: do that and you may do quite well.

Just remember, whether it is in the Gulf, India, or Asia, this is what they use. Even smaller airlines in Europe use the same thing so if you want to give it a shot anywhere then this part of the world is probably the best for you.

Good luck,

Burners and Out

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 08:25

Hey 320 Windrider:

Not to be argumentative, but I think your info is a little misleading to be fair. Osama (Quality Assurance), Mohammad Qassimi (delivery) and Ibrahim Mohammad (Engineering) have verified that no further planes were coming from TLS this year. One option is coming in late September and there may be another option to receive one from an airline that MAY not take delivery, but the second one is not our plane yet.

The 3-4 planes a year until 2012 is also pure conjecture. There is nothing on the books to suggest this.

Now having said that, in my 4 years here, nothing goes by the books. In 2004 we were supposed to have 6 planes by the end of 2009; today we have 15! If other opportunities, like Vueling, come up I am willing to bet the company will gobble them up. And while it is fully possible and probable that we could get another 2 planes this year and maybe 3-4 the next few years; no one has so indicated. Rumors and conjecture, but nothing official.

As for upgrades, well guys you know when we get planes, pilots also come in the door. Captains that is! I have been flying with F/Os that have completed their assessment and have been put on indefinite hold. Training is overloaded and the company needs to get the Captains on the line. Currently they are set with F/Os but Captains are unbelievably short. We all are flying max and while guys are making a whole lot of money, upgrades have all but come to a stop. The reason is simple. A current Captain on the 320, will only take a PT, PC and a few bounces in the plane to get on the line. 2 sim sessions! So the company can get 3-4 Captains on the line for the same amount of sim time to upgrade one F/O. Also the line time for a seasoned Captain will be but a fraction of the line time for a first time Captain.

It has been this way every summer since we started (and I’ve seen them all.) About October-November we should be caught up with Captains (assuming we don’t add frequency and new cities like we are currently doing.) At that time the F/O sim backlog jam should start clearing out like Emirates Road after midnight. But just like Emirates 311 it will be jammed again by April or May.

I don’t want to be argumentative, but I also want to present facts as best I know them.

B&O

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 08:47

Hi Wanax:

Sorry about your tour in the sand pit, but then again we fly around here everyday without combat pay:-)

Current means just the same as in the USA. You are current as a Captain for 6 months since your last PC, F/Os 12 months. So as long as it is less than 6 months since your last PC and you did not fly any other civil aircraft, then you are still current!

Please remember to specify TR. I understand what you mean but it does not mean the same here. There are a ton of Type Rated F/Os on small aircraft like the 320 with only a Commercial License (unlike the US airlines.) Even those with an ATP may have a TR but not left seat qualified. So be specific when you fill out your paperwork. You are an ATP with a P1 Type Rating on the A320 having xxxx hours in the left seat.

It hasn’t been the policy of ABY to require guys to give up their seniority number. The best example of that is the Canadians (who started the company). The vast majority (all except 2 – Warren Davey and Glen Burns) were furloughed Air Canada guys. They have all (save 1) gone back to Canada so as long as the company (ABY) does not upgrade you (therefore you signing a bond) that should not be a problem. However, from a decency standpoint you would want to spend at least a year or so to pay back the training time, visa moving medical and license costs etc from the company.

US Deathstar Airlines - love it?

B&O

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 09:00

toro11:

The new contract has been published and discussed ad-infinitum. Go back through the threads around the end of last year and you will find it all.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/middle-east/118037-air-arabia-all-you-need-know-about-threads-merged-15.html

Then you can do your own math and get a good idea.:ugh:

You have the lead.

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 09:11

FlytoParis:

Yes there are a set number of minimum days off. It is set by the GCAA and basically it says you have to have 7 days off each month, with a 3 month average of 8 days per month. In other words you could have 7 days this month, 8 days next month but then you would need 9 days the 3rd month.

Also the definition of a day off means 2 local nights in base (which is important in ABY’s operation.)

There are other rules based upon days flying (7 consecutive days requires 2 consecutive days off) etc. but not to worry; just about every reg in the books will come into play.:zzz:

For example, I have 9 trips this month with 12 days leave,7 days off and 3 days that start just before midnight (23 hours off prior to flying on those days) or end just after midnight.

Yet this roster has 63 block hours, 82 duty hours and pays 90 hours in basically 9 days. It is an extremely hard schedule and I will have to spend a few days recouping but still!

So don’t worry about days off. You may have a weak month (a lot of low time flying in many days) here and there but more often than not you will run against some limitation that forces days off on top of your schedule.

As for KTM, it has had some big changes. Crews are no longer based there nor are we over-nighting there any more. It appears to have been a bust for even the cabin crew are now flying out of SHJ. I believe they only have 1 airplane still flying out of there and what the future holds in still up for grabs. You must realize, there are so many routes where we absolutely fill planes at any price that marginal 50, 60 or 70% load factors are unacceptable.

Burners & Out

nibraska

5th Jul 2008, 11:20

Can any one tell me if recruiting will be effected because of the raising Fuel price?
Will ME airlines be intrseted on recruiting the 900+ pilots who are going to lose their jobs in the states and in europe?
Please PM.
Regards

W Weasel

5th Jul 2008, 12:16

Nibraska, pilots have been loosing their jobs in the states for 50 years. We use to say, the requirement for a pilot, of a major airline, to upgrade to Captain is that you were furloughed at least once and divorced at least twice.

Come on guys, this is nothing new! In 1969 (yes I was flying then and I know many of you were not even a gleam in your Daddy’s eye) a sign on I-5 outside Seattle said: “Would the last person leaving Seattle please turn out the lights.” Seattle (Boeing) were nearly out of business. Not only were the company engineers loosing jobs, the airlines were furloughing (laying off) like crazy. Then the first oil crunch in 1973 and the bigger one in 1978 saw thousands of pilots walking the streets (some forever.) The largest set back was under the Reagan administration when good old Ronnie boy fired all the Air Traffic Controllers (PATCO.) Not only did every airline in the nation lay off pilots but major airlines shut their doors forever. Braniff, old Continental, Western, National and eventually Pan Am. Sure some of the pilots got into other carriers and even parts of carriers were picked up by still others (United and Pan Am’s Pacific routes, while Delta bought Pan Am’s Europe operation) but large number of pilots never flew again – ask those airbus pilots at Pan Am:sad:

Please remember 900 pilots at UAL or 1000 at AMR or 2000 at Delta (while 10-15% of their pilot force) are not the final number. Recall AMR negotiated for nearly 2 years on its pilot contract and much of this is a negotiating ploy. Of course there is hardship for the carriers, but I have seen it before. A large percentage of these “jobs” will go through voluntary leave of absences and early retirements. The final number will be far less and while that is of little consequence to the guy out on the street; non-Americans must understand the USA is a complete seniority system. There are no direct entry Captains at major airlines and furloughs go from the bottom up. In the vast majority of cases that means the guy with the most flying left in his career is the guy out on the street.

Also it is highly unlikely that many of the pilots there will come to the ME. All the while the ME, India and Asia need pilots by the tens of thousands. So fear not about that highly trained F/O at American Airlines. He will probably use his engineering or computer science degree to get a job writing software for a few years until he is recalled.:)

Burners and Out!

Spoogie

5th Jul 2008, 16:12

WWeasel...The question remains! How do you think Air Arabia will fear in light of this escalating oil price. Do you think the hiring for F/O's will stop/continue. I start with them soon and I am also curious, after being laid off a few times!!

nibraska

5th Jul 2008, 18:28

Dude W Weasel (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/100030-w-weasel) ,
Thanks a lot for the informative reply.
the only thing that i noticed people in this site agree on is:
there is a big demand on pilots.
my question is, why are the airlines acting diffrently?
list of requirments just to be considered to attaend the placment test!!!
not to mention flying hours, type of license, medical bla bla bla bla.
we all know that what will make you a good pilot is your training with the air line not the 12 month course you do to obtain you CPL.
Im really waiting on your comments on this.

Cyyya

W Weasel

6th Jul 2008, 21:13

Hey Guys:

The first time I came through the Middle East was in 1978 in the right seat of an L-1011 charter flight. We flew from SAN to LHR to DXB to KTM. Fuel and crew stops them all. You must remember there were no airlines here at that time. No EK or EY; no Jazerra or Omani; no Qatar or ABY – nothing but Saudi, Kuwait and Gulf Air with its VC-10s. Don’t get technical about Royal Jordanian, Iran Air, Syranian Air etc for they are not and never have been big players.

The point is the aviation business in this region has literally blown up the last decade. Even the powerhouse (EK) only really grew the last 6-7 years. As for low cost airlines ABY was the first some 4.5 years ago. Today you have SAMA, NAS, Jazerra, RAK, and Fly Dubai right here. If you exclude Indian Airlines, you have another dozen or so in India (Indigo, Deacon, Sahara, Indian Express etc.) All flying 737s or 320s and only 2 hours from the ME! Even the Indian big boys (Jet Airways and Kingfisher) with their A-330s, 340s and 777 have only come on scene the last few years (Kingfisher is getting A-380s.) Now throw in the Chinese (China Southern, Northern, Eastern etc.) and you have 50% of the planet’s population (along with 2 of the 3 fastest growing economies on the planet) within reach of a baby bus or turbo Hoover Boeing. Don’t forget the Russians George (Patton)!

So Nibraska you are right to say “there is a big demand [for] pilots.” But more so there is a big choice for pilots. So the question is why ABY?

In my case I can only say there are a ton of personal reasons: location, management, corporate vision, job satisfaction, equipment, maintenance growth, esprit-de-corp and a dozen other factors. Sure there is BS, but where isn’t it? You want to make good money and have a low cost of living go to Air Asia or Vietnam Air – Dubai and Sharjah are quite expensive. Nice planes and good money – but those pilots at ABY that flew there and left can tell you – did you ever work for a Vietnamese? Great layovers and walk right into a 340 or 777 – go to EK or EY – can you say arrogant management George? Nice planes and good location – Qatar or Bahrain – but expect to spend a fortune and wait months for a house or school.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Those that know me know I do not drink the Jonestown Kool-aid. But you want different flying; it exists all over the region. Beautiful countryside flying A-321s for Air Astana – can you say Borat? A-380s for Kingfisher – shake your head! Want a beer – don’t go to Jazerra! See a bikini at the beach – just say no to NAS! Big cash; pay your taxes at Jet Airways. Why do cows, with acres of grass to eat, always stick their heads between the wires on a fence to chew the grass on the other side of the fence?

While it is very expensive to live and work here at ABY, you have everything as well. With the falling dollar (the local currency AED is tied to the US dollar) inflation is running about 12-15%. However, the UAE (especially Dubai) is a fully Western nation/city. English is spoken everywhere including the local Emiratee population. The intellectual level of the local population (including the Bahrainis, Omani etc) is extremely high with advanced degrees from Europe and the USA. Western schools flourish and the education level is far above that of the USA’s best private schools. Services (internet, cell phones, movies, etc) as well as the infrastructure (roads, sewer – excluding drainage for rain – garbage collection) is the best in the world. The UAE does everything bigger and larger than anywhere in the world – it is custom.

Homes, my friends for those in the West, you have never seen such homes! 4000-5000 sq ft homes are a dime a dozen and they are considered “modest.” I have previously described my home and location, but size is something most of you in the West can not even dream about.

So I hope I have answered some of your concerns. For those of you who have PMed me I believe I have included your concerns and my beliefs and feelings. I will address the requirements mentioned a little more later, but I honestly feel I have done that already.

I’m out-a-here! You have the lead!

W Weasel

6th Jul 2008, 22:19

Did you Yo-Yo today, 'cause I know who you are – Chao anh! Your e-mail bounced so SEND ME A VALID ADDRESS: DI-DI MAU!

Yes I am Esajh from “Wolfpack 2” Triple Nickels (555 TFS) Ubon RTAFB 72. Post Blackman and Robin (11 Wild Weasels, 6 Linebacker 2s, 4 with you) – APO 96304. I know YR the Last of the Gunfighters out of DaNang, right (F8?) MAU!

Phantoms 4 Ever - Burners and Out

PS "Here Kitty Kitty" :D

nibraska

7th Jul 2008, 05:20

W Weasel (http://www.pprune.org/forums/members/100030-w-weasel) ,
Thanks Auncle for all the INFOOOOOOS.
im not trying to be negative, but infact realastic.
Im from the ME, so i have no chance what so ever to work for India or chaina as a S/o.
EK have a long list of requirments, others are trying to be though.
as per what i hear & see, you will be wasting not less than a year waiting for a reply.
so please advice on what im about to do is right...plz.
Im Planing to obtain my FAA CPL-ME-I 250 hours, then staright do my type rating on 320 or 737(Rezon: i might have a better chane of inrollment)do you think so?

CCYYAAA

W Weasel

7th Jul 2008, 19:12

Hey Nibraska:

My friend I feel for your dilemma but I truly can not and am not qualified to give you such advice. You are asking about life determining decisions and I am but a keyboard punch on this abstract media called the Internet. Man I am sure you have far better and more qualified friends, family and leaders to give you much better advice.

Having said that I have never been averse to giving my OPINION! That is all it is my friend, a personal opinion based upon my desires and beliefs.

From the limited info I have you sound like a young man – under 40. That said you also have limited time and are looking to get into the industry. Please remember, ALL AIRLINE COMPANIES ARE BUSINESSES AND NOT SCHOOLS! Whether it is ABY or any other airlines their primary job is to take people from point A to point B and MAKE MONEY! You, as a pilot, are a tool just like an A-320 or B-737 and armed with that fact you must always remember the “prime directive.” The company does not exist if it does not make money for the stock holders and ultimate owners of the business.

So, as I explained before, my desires are to work for a company that treats me like a “personal” tool. There is some personal in the tool part and that exists at ABY. But they too must make money. They compete with everyone else in the region and MUST make money too, no matter how nice the Fleet Manager, Chief Pilot, Training Manager or Director of Ops is and how much they truly care about your health, feelings and family. They have to run a company and they get in trouble too with their bosses if they don’t make a profit – the stock holders.

So coming from the ME you have a blessing and a curse. You are cursed by who you can work for (based upon you citizenship and license) but a blessing because you are a citizen of whatever nation you are a citizen of. If you are an Emirate you can pick the company you want to work for – EK, EY, G9 etc. If you are a Bahraini you have Gulf Air. Omani – Oman Air; Qatari – Qatari; Saudi – NAS, Sama, Saudi; Kuwaiti – Jazerrra, Kuwaiti and so forth. From what I know every nation desires the maximum number of LOCAL pilots to fly for their airlines. If Dubai could get 2000 Emirate pilots to fly for EK there would be NO British, Australians, and South Africans etc working there. If ABY could get 300 Emirates there would be no Danes, Canadians, Irish, Russians or Americans working here. It is that simple – and every carrier has an Ab Initio program for their citizens.

I feel that flying is NOT for everyone. Some pilots have this career given to them far too easy and they really don’t appreciate it. That is a personal opinion, but I really feel that YOU MUST LOVE FLYING. You need to really try to make each and every landing a “squeaker.” You need to get a thrill out of doing it even when you did it 10,000 times before – that was then and today is now.

OK are you ready for this? This is going to be the speech from your father or an uncle you never liked. Pull your harness tight for this is going to be more violent than an RTO at 160 knots.

My personal feeling is too many guys have it far too easy in this part of the world. You want to fly you have to do as Tom Hanks said in the movie “Saving Private Ryan” EARN THIS! Earn it and that means a whole lot of work. 250 hours and a CPL should not even get your application past the secretary in HR. Heck 1500 hours and an ATP should not get you past the Chief Pilot’s secretary – but that is not the reality here.

You want to fly, EARN IT! Do whatever it takes. In my day (yah, yah, yah you old fart) guys did what was necessary. The military was the last place you wanted to go for you could die and never get that airline job. But if you were poor that was the only way to get there. You want to fly bad enough, then go to Africa or some God forsaken place and get the experience – should you live. Spend a couple years flying trash around the world and then ask for that job. 5 years, while sounding like a lot today to you, is nothing after decades in the business. Earn it and do what it takes if you want it enough.

You get that experience you can “write your own meal ticket.” DO NOT EXPECT ANY AIRLINE TO BRING YOU INTO THEIR OPERATION IF YOU CAN NOT PROVIDE FOR THEM IMMEDIATELY!

Let me give some ways guys did it in my time. Some of us went into the military (Vietnam was hot and heavy back then) and did it that way. Others flew crop dusters and fertilized farmer’s fields. Then again others became instructors and accumulated hours and got heavier ratings. Many guys went from those areas and flew in Bum – F--- Africa, Asia etc and got time. I know several guys that flew single engine airplanes across the Atlantic and Pacific. Planes full of fuel that they pumped from the passenger seats in the back to make it – many became fish food and never saw land again. EARN IT!

So never say “wasting a year.” My friends if a year is all you take you are getting off very well. This is not mom and dads grocery store. You will fly a $50+ million airplane with 150+ people’s lives in your hand. No policeman can pull you over and say what are you doing? The company will give you that airplane and those people’s lives and you MUST know what to do. NO ONE, no Chief Pilot or VP or CEO can do anything to “make it better” while you are at 390. You are IT and that is power and responsibility that companies do not give out lightly. Two people, that may not even like each other, have control of 50 million dollars worth of equipment and a couple hundred people’s lives. You have to earn that my friend and if you are not willing to do that – well do you really want to fly or do you want a great job that pays a lot of money and gives you prestige?

Don't be dejected, but simply go out and Earn It!

I hope this helps, but as Dennis Miller says: “Then again I could be wrong!”

B&O :ok:

nibraska

8th Jul 2008, 09:32

Thank you,
but i think i could not explain my situation clearly.
You reply was faaar way track.
any ways thank you

netfreak

8th Jul 2008, 16:26

That was good Weasel. You couldn't have put it more appropriately.

green01

9th Jul 2008, 14:39

Hi Weasel many times I had been trying to send a PM to you but always I have same this answer:
W Weasel has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.
By the way I had been in Sharjah for the last interview...Now I'm ansious to receive the result...I will have to rent a big house(preferently) or big apartament...If I pass.....Take care and good flights...Green1

W Weasel

14th Jul 2008, 22:45

I checked my allowances and it seems all ok. I have received numerous PMs. Heck I get tons a day and many of you know I am unable to answer them all timely, that's why sometimes I do answer publicly. Yet it is working.

Sorry

A320PLT

14th Jul 2008, 23:04

WW,

It says you dont take pvt messages. That's ok because you always answer back when time permits.

A320

flytoparis

17th Jul 2008, 12:15

Thanks WW for your reply!! And you are absolutely right with your little speech..:D

Cheers

Paris

lynazeina1

25th Jul 2008, 18:59

Hi

Needs a help regarding Air Arabia.

I have got an interview comming up next month.
Any info, what they ask, waht in the sim check, any tech qiz
Any help will be higly appreciated

Regards

lynazeina1

25th Jul 2008, 19:03

Hi

Needs a help regarding Air Arabia.

I have got an interview comming up next month.
Any info, what they ask, waht in the sim check, any tech qiz
Any help will be higly appreciated

Regards

lynazeina1

25th Jul 2008, 19:09

Hi

Needs a help regarding Air Arabia.

I have got an interview comming up this month.
Any info, what they ask, waht in the sim check, any tech qiz
Any help will be higly appreciated

Happy landings:ok:

EECEPR

30th Jul 2008, 12:32

I am senior ops guy living in Asia and need to move on. Word is place to go is ME. I am not a pilot but have managed pilots (and all ops) for a very progressive LCC. I just missed out on the new LCC in Emirates due to internal politics. Any suggestions???

Cheers,

WannabeAirbusFlyer

26th Aug 2008, 12:02

Hi there,

I had question for those of you who are currently flying with Air Arabia. I was wondering if there were in fact some layover flights, in contradiction to what is mentioned under the careers section on their website - "NO LAYOVERS"......

I understand that VCBI (Colombo) is no longer a layover flight, and that the cockpit crew turn around at Colombo. Although Chittagong (VGEG), and Dhaka (VGZR) should ideally be a layover flight, as the flying time would be well over 4 hours, but then again I am not completely familiar with the UAE Air Law regarding FTL. Also, would the upcoming flight to Kiev (dont know the ICAO designator) be a layover flight as well ?

I would appreciate it greatly if someone, who is currently flying with the company, could shed some light on these queries.

Safe skies........:)

PHAROH

26th Aug 2008, 12:29

Hi,

1-
"LAYOVERS" Not Familiar With That Term.

2-
Kiev (dont know the ICAO designator).IS "UKBB" :ok:

c u soooon.

320 star

28th Aug 2008, 01:47

it seems there will be 2 night stops in winter, Colombo and Dhaka.
Kiev is a day flight, so it will be within FTL; this is according to the announced winter schedule.:ok:

WannabeAirbusFlyer

28th Aug 2008, 06:23

Thanks much for the reply 320star.... though I wonder if Dhaka were a nightstop, shouldnt Chittagong be one even more so, since it is further than Dhaka, from Sharjah.

I guess I'll learn more as I go along, and once I start flying the line. Thanks once again, and see you on the line....... cheers !!

EpsilonVaz

4th Sep 2008, 22:32

Where do the expat Air Arabia guys live? In Dubai or Sharjah? If Dubai, how long is the commute?

namngm

12th Sep 2008, 11:24

Hello to AA pilots, it seems that AA is a hard working yet enjoyable outfit

to work for, i have been attending some roadshows in the U.S. but find

myself drawn to the Airarabia operation. I am typed on airbus family on

the right, but as my fellow asrpiring pilots out there am looking to join a

compnay that respects its pilots dedication and recongnizes his/hers goals.

My question, is how many planes does Airarabia have today?? and how

many will join i.e. next year and so on roughly??

And if someone like myself were to join how long to upgrade to capt?? is

the process of a nasa interview to be expected or is it professional some

what relaxed and straight to the point process??:ugh:

I have been reading the posts by W.W. which were great:ok: and it seems

Airarabia do respect their pilots. Yes i agree pilots do tend to complain but

so does everyone in any job. But REALISTICALLY speaking how is the

situation. I know about the flying and hard work and frankly it has it's pros

and cons as well as the money so any feedback would be appreciated

flysafe

namngm

12th Sep 2008, 11:29

good luck to you on your interview any information would be great, i.e. questions atmosphere sim check anything.

The other carriers in the region are informative by their pilots as to what

goes on during the interview, However, i can't find much about Air Arabia:ugh:

Does anyone in Airarabia have any details

Tucidides

13th Sep 2008, 16:51

Hi everyone, :}
Technical questions related to the Airbus 320, personality test, group dynamic, and interview.
I had this on my screening.
Don´t be afraid of anything they are very friendly , just be yourself in the interview. They mostly want to see that you fit in AirArabia. :ok:
We have 15 A320 and at least 4 more to come shortly I guess ( some more from Vueling) , dont know for sure, but the destinations are continuously growing. :D
There is more info about the fleet and destinations on the web i think.
Kisses, kisses:E

namngm

13th Sep 2008, 18:17

general info on interview process?? :ugh:

PHAROH

15th Sep 2008, 10:40

Tucidides (http://www.pprune.org/members/236316-tucidides)
:=:=:=

NIK_

29th Sep 2008, 16:52

Dear guys,
I am invited next month for an assessment as FO by Air Arabia. I have gone through the whole AA thread and I am very thankful for the information about the company with the pros and cons.
Because I still have some further questions about AA and the environment I would really appreciate some help from you guys, maybe some insider from AA could also provide me with some details:
1. It was mentioned in the previous posts that there was a high fluctuation of pilots in the past.So, what is the current state? If pilots leave the company, do you guess why? (Job offer from EK,EY,back to their homes……)
2. If I understood it right, the monthly duty plan was also a major issue in the past. Is it still a big deal, still a lot of changes within a month? Are you guys happy with your duty plan?
3. Is it correct if I am saying that most of the flights are starting in the evening ´til next morning?
How many days in a month you have dayshifts and how many days nightshifts? Do you have any Stdby days?
4. I am planning to take my family ( my wife and our 8 week old son) next month to Sharjah. For me it´s very important that my wife feels happy because I know that she is spending a lot of time without me.Is Sharjah a good place to live for? Can you people tell me some addresses where I can look for some flats, houses in the vicinity of the airport? Is the housing allowances for FO´s sufficient to find s.th. suitable e.g. a little house with a small garden and maybe a pool?
5. Are there any nice public beaches in the near around Sharjah where you can stay for a few hours with your family? Or do you have to go to Dubai, I was once there and know that the best beaches are around Jumeirah?
6. My next question needs some explanation. At the moment I am working as FO for a german airline.I received today my payslip and to be honest, I was a little bit frustrated. I earned 3.700,- euros net for 96 hours . Please do not misunderstand me, it is still a lot of money, I wished my parents had so much money when they came in the 70s to germany for a better life. Otherwise, like you guys I am looking to buy one day my own house and I know that I will need probably further 20 years if I stay where I am. I am not dreaming of making millions, I am looking for a company where I can safe some money at the end of the month and have not to think twice if I am going out for dinner. Our current CEO believes that pilots get to much money for doing nothing, from his point of view we should earn less than the half of above.
The german market is dead, some companies have no respect and treat you like a piece of sh..
Are you guys happy with AA?Do you feel comfortable and o you think the management respects you and takes your problems serious? Also,iIs there any FO who could share with me some information about his average salary?
7. My last question, I am invited by Gulfair also for a job as FO.From your point of view,why would you recommend AA instead of Gulfair? I dunno anything about GF and their operation with the A320,but I know for myself that I would really like to be at home every night rather stay somewhere in a hotel.

O.k., a lot of questions, but I know that If am leaving now my job in germany, I will never come back to germany again, because there are no good jobs anymore here.
Thank you all very much

Wish you always hapy landings:ok: