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-   -   Manchester-2 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599775-manchester-2-a.html)

LAX_LHR 9th Nov 2017 13:09

I feel you are the one not understanding the situation south side, it's quite simple really, but you seem to be making it far more complicated than it needs to be. I've not mentioned at any time that the slots did hold a monetary value. That was a hypothesis brought in by someone else. I've not suggesting MAN should start slot selling.

Let's try and break this down very simply, and what I alluded to in my very first post about it before any money terms were brought into it.

-KPMG took ACL to court as they wanted to hold on to the S18 slots so that they could be sold to airlines. They believed the slots had monetary value.

-MAN also made an interviening submission to the court as they wanted the slots freed for S18. The only airport to do so.

My whole point was questioning what the urgency was for Manchester. If there were no airlines waiting in the wings to take over the slots, MAN could have simply sat back and watched the situation play out, because, if there were no airlines wanting the slots, what did it matter to MAN on how the slots ended up back in the portfolio. Even *if* (please note my use of the word if here) they did end up being worth money, either the airlines would pay it or back off. If backed off, then they would have reduced in price continually until such time the slots were deemed suitable again.

So, this was the point, why did MAN want the slots back in the hands of ACL for 2018, and not just wait it out like other airports. You don't do that unless you have a need to do so.

To be honest, if we are not on the same page here, just understanding what it is you are actually writing due to your erratic punctuation would be a start.

chaps1954 9th Nov 2017 13:30

I understand what you are saying

LAX_LHR 9th Nov 2017 14:24

Thomas Cook will operate some cruise charters to Colombo next winter.

MT3702 MAN 2045 CMB 1205 Weds
MT3703 CMB 1505 MAN 2220 Thurs

Starts 17/10/18. Seems to be every other week like the CPT this winter. Announcement expected on regular Cape Town flights next winter.

New York JFK also appears to be 6 weekly next winter, with flights every day bar Saturday's.

southside bobby 9th Nov 2017 14:28

MAN did not want to sit back & watch the situation play out as per one of your scenarios
because they are NOT in the same game/situation as LGW which the courts obviously recognised & were excepted from the review/case judgement...so good luck & wise decision.
The available slots possibly will or can be taken up but with the freedom of a normal ACL application which is quite obviously what MAN wish to see which is correct.
My original comment way back was TBH & in my opinion MAN also was aware that no airline @ MAN would expect or wish to pay for slots there anyways,(again recognised indirectly by the courts).
You are the informed poster @ MAN & you have been asked too if you would share any evidence to help with the above assumption for MAN/MAG`s wishing rapidly to exit the "wait & see approach".
So another question (& you do not answer any BTW) & I`m none too clear, is MAN now absolutely excepted from the Court review or is it now caught up in the appeal? genuine question.
If excepted,than for your positivity hopefully you will be hearing/seeing the applications v shortly.
We make a great pairing with my punctuation & your spelling :))

Ex Cargo Clown 9th Nov 2017 14:29

Most of the MON slots have no value. Who would take a 2:30am slot on? KPMG are stupid, just release the slots to ACL.

Plane.Silly 9th Nov 2017 14:34

They wouldn't be good administrators if they didn't try to get as much money back as possible, even if the search was doomed from the start, it was still a lead worth chasing

LAX_LHR 9th Nov 2017 14:38

South side,

I had to be honest, I do feel like we are not agreeing on this because I do find it genuinely difficult to follow your posts due to the style of them, and thus that leads to the confusion. I appriciate that may seem like a personal attack, but like I say, I had to be honest. (Yes I may have the odd spelling error but that's partly down to the wonders of Apple autocorrect and I have posted before I release it has been changed).

As for the monarch slots at MAN, according to several media outlets, yes, they are now exempt from the appeal. ACL are now in possession of these and will split them as 50% new entrants and 50% incumbant operators. (See, no trouble answering questions when I can understand what is written).

As for my positivity, I hope so too. I know your preference is for STN to overtake MAN as 3rd largest airport again, but with these slots now at hand, hopefully MAN can keep its trend going....

mavml 9th Nov 2017 14:51

I think what MAN are trying to avoid here is the situation where MON/KPMG continue to hold the slots looking for someone to buy them, but no-one is willing to pay for MAN slots and some form of stalemate is reached. The main objective for MAN must be to make sure they have every opportunity of being used for S18, regardless of who gets them.

Now they are back in the slot pool this means that airlines can apply for them now, and can factor them into any remaining S18 planning wiggle-room fleet and recruitment wise. Even a couple of weeks from now, this may be more difficult as airlines may need to source wet leases, 2nd hand aircraft or redeploy from other bases in order to utilise these slots - that takes time and if not done promptly could mean needing to cancel flights elsewhere in their network which are already on sale.

Take U2 for example, if they want to grow their MAN presence (I don't know if they do) they might need to forego growth elsewhere. I don't think all of their network-wide new routes or base expansion is yet on sale, so they still have the option to do this. But by mid-December they'll have more on sale, which makes it a lot harder for them redeploy and expand MAN.

Similarly in the case of LS, they might need to source more 2nd hand 738s or 330s.

So in summary, I think this is a sensible move from MAN to maximise their 2018 passenger throughput potential, and may or may not be based on intel from their airline customers around their plans.

Dobbo_Dobbo 9th Nov 2017 23:54

Generally an in house team will ship out a piece of work where live proceedings are involved (such as an application).

In this instance, MAG instructed DLA Piper. See below.


LAX_LHR 10th Nov 2017 08:47

I don't think what you wrote makes sense, and you haven't given reason to suppose otherwise.
I don't find that surprising at all given you seem to take issue with most things I write......

MKY661 10th Nov 2017 19:54

I wonder if any Terminal moves are planned, surely T1 will be getting very overcrowded with both EasyJet and Jet2 due to expand. Mind you with T2 due to be a lot quieter will this allow them do start more work on the transformation project earlier than planned?

SWBKCB 10th Nov 2017 20:20

Now they are back in the slot pool this means that airlines can apply for them now, and can factor them into any remaining S18 planning wiggle-room fleet and recruitment wise. Even a couple of weeks from now, this may be more difficult as airlines may need to source wet leases, 2nd hand aircraft or redeploy from other bases in order to utilise these slots - that takes time and if not done promptly could mean needing to cancel flights elsewhere in their network which are already on sale.
This is the answer - MAG's move was to get the slots released and available to allow proper planning by all concerned.

roverman 11th Nov 2017 00:38

Smart move by MAG. Their intervention was perhaps not decisive but taken in recognition of the history of squabbles which are essentially about access to London airports but disadvantage MAN in the process. Egyptair etc.

LAX_LHR, your initial point was quite clear to me, a rhetorical question - why is MAG doing this other than it must have an imperative i.e. a queue waiting to take up the vacated ZB slots. Absolutely.

LAX_LHR 11th Nov 2017 08:56

Thanks Roverman,

It seems that based on posts here and private messages, most people did understand my point, it was actually quite a simple one really, but I just think there are a select few that just want to be awkward and argue a point for the sake of arguing it.

MANFOD 11th Nov 2017 09:34

Agreed roverman. That was how I understood LAX_LHR's point. Urgency due to the known demand for the slots is probably heightened by the issue previously raised of the allocation of Terminals to airlines and the on-going TP work. Monarch were in T2 and if interest in the MON slots includes the likes of easyjet and Jet2 in T1, and possibly flybe and Ryanair in T3, then Terminal and stand capacity are issues that MAN will want to resolve as quickly as possible.

Dobbo_Dobbo 13th Nov 2017 11:12

October 2017 Stats
MAN continues to grow in October.

Obviously the full impact of Monarch's demise has not yet been felt, but it gives cause to believe the trajectory can remain an upward one.

Rolling 12 month total: 27,732,67
October 2017 total: 2,404,521
Year on year growth: +3.1%

Still larger than STN in October, so reason to believe that position can be comfortably maintained while the Monarch capacity is back filled.


LAX_LHR 13th Nov 2017 12:44

Passenger growth at Manchester in October was affected by Monarch ceasing trading, with year-on-year growth down from 7.4% in September. Monarch had accounted for 5.4% of flights from Manchester in September, averaging 250 flights per week. MAG has seen strong interest from airlines to take over the slots operated previously by Monarch so they can operate new services at Manchester next year".
Just highlighted the bit at the end as seen as some were asking for evidence MAN might have needed the slots for S18....

Ex Cargo Clown 13th Nov 2017 14:50

Surely TCX or TOM will mop up the ZB slots.

Plane.Silly 13th Nov 2017 15:13

Or EZY / FR / LS. All of who would probably love to expand further. LS in particularly announced last month an extra 250k seats for S18, so they'll need at least 2 a/c and 4 slots for that. Others also announced new routes to cover ZB, so imagine this'll be a bloodbath

LAX_LHR 13th Nov 2017 16:39

LS unlikely to add more than what they already have, where would they get all these extra aircraft from (given they want to aggressively expand at STN and BHX also)

TOM, another one where I don't know where the aircraft would come from. Only one or 2 B787 due anytime soon and likely spoken for already.

Easyjet and Ryanair are ones to watch. Both have said they will expand in the wake of Monarch going down, but yet to show their cards.

Norwegian. Yes, they have just cut the MAN-Spain routes, but are rumoured to be looking at US B737 routes, and with fares already well up on last year to the Med resorts, could they be re-evaluated? They have told several people via Social media that at least Malaga will be returning.

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