Think you could be quite surprised on timescale AndyH52.

The idea and the process is not just starting...it started a good while ago with agreements / plans, in principle, already there. It is not something that is at day 1 and only just being discussed for the first time.

MAN will / has modeled it's terminal redevelopment with this potential facility in mind, but it could also adapt the current terminal set-up fairly quickly in the meantime.

Exciting times at Ringway :)

Im not?!



You say Im mis-interpriting the news, yet, basically say the same as me? The above is just a different wording to what I wrote?!



Would you not say that as around 25 airports applied, these 10 were selected, does constitute as very likely to be the next 10? Or, are you just being pedantic?

Well Suzeman i bow to your knowledge of the subject, clearly i have missed something as i have not seen one single reference to this until now.

Whilst I fully appreciate they not going to email us the minutes of every meeting i would have thought it would at least have been mentioned in the same way that other "salient messages" are released to press home a point or lobby for indirect support as clearly MAN would benefit from such an arrangement "at the point negotiations opened".

Whilst it is clearly only a small part of a negotiation ...... lobbying a government dept to show your interest via subtle comment in the media is usually a part of that process.

If MAN has indeed acted with the guile you describe and negotiations have been going on for many years that is indeed splendid. I still cannot help thinking more calls have been made recently given the EI scenario.

It still seems odd that this subject has never been raised at a single Transport Select Committee meeting in a forum where legislation can be influenced by MPs AT the appropriate time.

Maybe MAN assumed it was the wrong forum or is any agreement outside Parliament. MPs do get very animated re sovereign issues do they not

Are MPs involved in the process at any point ?

Would be very difficult at Heathrow if all carriers wanted to use the facilities, think Ringway could be way ahead on this one.



Was under the impression that the pre-clearance staff would not be armed. Are they armed in Ireland?


Indeed!

Nor have I and I suspect that there hasn't been anything.

If things are proceeding OK, why bother to use the media - keep your powder dry. Sometimes exposing things in the media can be counter productive, especially if there are lots of sensitivities involved. I've seen things go horribly wrong as a result. In addition, leaking things via the media can result in you being thought of as untrustworthy by civil servants etc - the very people you are seeking to influence and get on side.

Now lobbying Government Departments in private is a whole different thing and who is to know what has been and is going on - not me or you. But you only get things in the media when the time is right.

Anyway, the latest UK thoughts about pre-clearance started in 2011 (although there had been plenty of discussions years before that when Shannon opened its pre-inspection facility) in the draft aviation policy framework.

In the final policy framework document (March 2013) the following is said

Now nobody here seems to have posted a link to the Dept of Homeland Security release, so here it is

DHS Announces Intent to Expand Preclearance to 10 New Airports | Homeland Security

And some relevant bits

So serious discussions with the US about pre-clearance at MAN and other places has been going on for about a year, Bagso without a hint of anything in the press. :ok: MAN's application has been accepted and there is no way this could have happened without there having been intensive discussions with the UK Government who would have to support it. And evaluation teams have been roving round the airport and no doubt looking at plans of how pre-clearance could be achieved. And all without us knowing - shame :{

What is unclear to me so far is what further negotiations are required, what UK legislative changes are required and the timescales. No doubt it will all come out in the press at the appropriate time... :rolleyes:

I fail to see how this could possibly work given MAN's current infrastructure, it's already operating at near capacity during peak times.

How will this new development including USPC be funded. MAN charges are low for the type of airport but if they increase how will airlines take it particuarly the locos which could result in them (ryanair for example) stalling or cutting their operations.

Im sure MAN is profitable but can we really see them eating into that and not increase charges.

While capacity is needed, airlines not using USPC may not take kindly to paying for it.

Double edge sword by investing in USPC?

Im sure it wil do fine but MAN will never be a hub for transit passengers apart from Flybe connecting a few points what else. You can argue the Star/Onewoeld but realistically they don't offer connections.

Not wanting to be negative but when will we see these devolpment plans?

Manchester is very profitable
re transfer passenger yes we have Flybe linking up with quite a few
airlines now on the long haul market and pre clearance will pull passeners
through from Europe as well and Middle East of which there are plenty to go at


Ian

Ian Brooks
Could not see many coming from Mid East given the number of direct flights from there to various US hubs. Europe to some degree maybe another matter but even then the time needed to land re board another A/C would make the choice marginal unless US immigration queues get far worse.


Regards
Mr Mac

AA used T1 while yes the taxi way was repaired as it wiped out 44C/44R 47 and 48. Thus meaning the AA A330 had to use 55 as it wouldn't fit on 10. 10 being the easiest accessible for a 767 size aircraft. Now that the taxi way is open again and 49 has being widened, it means that all 3 wide body can park back on t3, 44C, 49 and 55

Having been away for a week, it was good to read the official news about Austrian and the interesting comments regarding the possibility of US pre-clearance. I just hope AI doesn't prove to be a 'will they, won't they?' situation like Hainan.

Incidentally, experience of T1 at MAN was pretty good outbound and return.
Departing on a 06.00 TCX flight on a busy Sunday 24th May, the beginning of the school holidays, we were through check-in (c 30 minutes) and security (10 minutes) comfortably under 45 minutes. I noted that a TCX flight at 06.15 was their 5th departure of the morning!).

Arrived back 20 minutes early yesterday at 12.20, a short wait at Border Control (e-passport gates were working but we didn't use them) and our bags (admittedly some of the earliest) were through 25 minutes after landing.

The only negative was that one of the 3 lifts from ground to level 5 is still out of commission so the queues there were disappointing to see. I assume they are being refitted in turn but why does it take so long for each? I must admit it's not helped by folk like us making our way to departure level to be picked up!

Back to pre-clearance, I hope possible revised plans to accommodate it don't push back the overall terminal redevelopment. While waiting to board for our flight on the Sunday it looked to me that every stand on T1 was occupied as well as 100/101? Couldn't see T2 but T3 stands were well filled including the remote ones 56-58.

Could the cunning plan hinted by Suzeman concern the potential satellite on Terminal 2 having an additional departure level similar to the designs of the new terminals at Frankfurt and Munich to deal with the segregation of Shengen and non-Schengen flights using the same gates?

Redefining airport hubs: (Self)-connectivity: the next vital piece in the industry?s advancement | CAPA - Centre for Aviation


Could the cunning plan also facilitate some form of LCC /legacy /LCC at MAN ?

I think its the LGW timetable that shows "all possible" permutations rather than just traditional codeshares.

The FlyBe network would be ripe for exploitation !

Just for the avoidance of doubt, I am assuming MAN have a cunning plan to re-develop the terminals only through what I have read here and elsewhere and have no insider knowledge of what is happening.

But assuming they do (and I hope so!), I'm sure vertical segregation for different categories of passenger will be a feature as will a certain amount of flexibility (which of course costs more) as the rules and regulations are constantly changing as, of course, is the nature of the business as the link posted by Bagso shows.

Sir Richard Leese has just 'tweeted' that an announcement will be made tomorrow regarding 'modernising Manchester airport'.


This could be the big rebuild.

Indeed it is LAX_LHR...at long last.

T2 to be extended and airlines shifted there while T1 and T3 are worked upon...is my guess anyway.

Not long to wait to find out for sure...

If this is the big announcement, apart from the terminal infrastructure plans themselves, two key ingredients will be the time scale and how to not only maintain operations but to continue to grow during the process.

The main hint so far were the words:



And good news that the infamous 'aircraft stands used as car parks' may be coming to an end:

£1bn Manchester Airport transformation: Super-sized terminal, faster security, more passengers, more routes - Manchester Evening News

:D:D

Looks and sounds fantastic! Am just waiting to hear the details.. Number of stands for what aircraft types etc.

But hooray! Finally! And work is to start in 9 months!

New Look
 

From MEN plans, this looks good and functional. If they can pull it off without too much disruption all the better. Good to see some comments by the airlines in the positive. Look forward to seeing in more detail, but so far so good.

Fantastic news, just hoping they roll this out with some real heavyweight publicity at a national level !

Its a "national infastructure" investment not just a "regional" one specifucally for Gtr Manchester....

tippy-tappy in a search engine and you'd have seen it on Bloomberg and Reuters for starters (guess who did this at 1am!). Whether national news broadcasters take it up is down to them and not MAN.

And there seems to be a confirmation of the US Pre clearance too.....

Is there anywhere to look at the concept drawings or plans, apart from the images on the Evening News report?

There is a new website dedicated to the re-build.


www.mantp.co.uk

This is the link to the Bloomberg article that Ringwayman mentions.

Manchester Hub Earmarks $1.5 Billion to Lure Long-Haul Airlines - Bloomberg Business.

A different slant in the headline.

It would be interesting to know some specific details such as:

A/C stand capacity over the phasing and when complete, compared to now.

What a 'revamp' of T3 involves and what airlines will use it.
What sort of link between T2 and T3 is planned, given the distance is not insignificant, at least in terms of the eastern end of T3 to the NW end of T2.

Its also interesting that the bloomberg article states:



We know implimenting US PBC at LHR is going to be a logistical challenge, so, will naturally take longer, so, if true, is quite a coup for MAN to be the first pre clearance centre in the UK.


The first stage in the re-build, ready by 2018, will be a new pier at the far end of T2. I wonder if this will be where the US PBC will be, as all the US carriers and flights can be shifted up there, freeing up space at T1/T3 to start work in those areas. The pier could then be used for regular traffic once all the pre-cleared flight have gone.

Not easy to tell from the artists impressions, but I would think that T3 will expand to include much of the current frontage of T1, with T2 expanding to meet it. Bit of a hike if you are transferring from gate 55 in T3 to the new pier at the far end of T2, so hopefully they will include functioning travelators!

Q. Will the apron footprint change ?

Many remote stands re T2 apron will dissappear, yes the aircraft will then be "parked onstand" so to speak but is there sny scope to go large in terms of apron area ?

Or will they just use the area vacated by demolished buildings.

Speaking to a member of MAN staff it sounds like T3 will be extended towards the Airport pub and in the other direction be similar to the image of T2, and will join T2 with piers all the way along, with just one huge central check-in area.

Quite a task ahead...but exciting...

In other news SAS has released their winter program which includes increases from Stockholm and Copenhagen to Manchester. Does anyone know in figures what these will be? I think at the moment CPH is something like 12 weekly (no sat evening and I don't think sun morning either) and Stockholm seems to be almost random with some daysn othing and others having one morning and one evening flight.

Winter program: Over half a million more SAS seats - SAS

Maybe too early to tell but the renders would suggest that the taxiway bottle neck hasn't been fully but maybe partially resolved.

It would seem that if a wide body aircraft is coming into T2 when development is finished nothing else can move until it has passed. It might be possible to move two narrow bodies at the same time but not wide bodies.

This was hinted at a while back when this form of redevelopment was hinted.

Copenhagen looks to be going from 2 to 3 daily according to their website:


CPH 0830 MAN 0935
MAN 1020 CPH 1315


CPH 1745 MAN 1840
MAN 1925 CPH 2210


CPH 2005 MAN 2105
MAN 2140 CPH 0030


ARN looks to be 12 weekly, so an increase of 4 weekly IIRC

That's a lot of added seats from SAS, I'm sure it will come with smaller aircraft on many rotations (we often get a 321 from CPH for example) but still, I hope they can fill them all.

With regards to a taxiway bottleneck these things can be modelled in the planning stage and I'm sure MAG will be given estimated delay times and capacity figures for various options. I would hope that they are clever enough to spend the money properly now when they're already investing a large sum. No use doing something like this halfheartedly (IMO).

Those SAS timings for CPH look very strange in terms of MAN departures.

10.20 then nothing until 19.25 with a further flight as late as 21.40.

Even though easyjet fly the route as well, I would have thought there was a case for making the last flight from CPH a night stopper, which I think they did at one time.

Plans look well but lack so much detail. They don't seem ready to announce such changes. Think it was nothing more than a glorified PR stunt.

There is no reason why details shouldn't be released if they know what they plan to do!

I love that MEN got EZY and EK to comment and not carriers like FR, LS who are real loco carriers.....

SAS
 

would the late departure not help better with onward connections early the following morning

It would be nice to be able to get into CPH first thing in the morning and therefore link up with the longhauls out of CPH. As it is you can only link into the late QR flight or night stop in CPH, not ideal.