I heard United were pulling their UA080 EWR route from MAN too.


Anyone with any information can back this up?

I believe Edinburgh are losing one of their Newark services to add Washington. It's shuffling aircraft around most likely due to Norwegian.

I do wonder how much longer the B752s will last so perhaps this could be due for an upgague.

UA80 isn't being pulled! If anything it is due to be upgraded to a 767. One of the best yielding routes across the Atlantic for UA looking at fares and is regularly sold out and overbooked.

B787 more likely.

Apologies if I wasn't clear - not suggesting UA80 to get pulled. Just speculating how much longer their B752 has on TATL routes.

Not sure if UA are buying the A321LR, if not I'd expect the larger aircraft is more likely than the route being pulled.

MAN-EWR
 

CCGE29

I assume an attempt at humour?

Figures from the CAA.

July pax 8557 average 138 pax 82% load factor peak season the equivalent of 31 empty seats on every single flight every single day.

June pax 8109 average 135 - 80% equivalent of 35 empty seats on every flight

May pax 7694 average 124 - 73% equivalent of 45 empty seats on every flight

April pax 7672 average 132 - 78% equivalent of 36 empty seats on every flight

16 business first seats and quote "One of the best yielding routes across the Atlantic for UA " - remarkable.

The only positive aspect is that the 2017 figures are actually better than 2016 which were dire but there again IAD was operating last year.

I would worry or have total faith that yield is mega as BHX had better load factors for 3 of the months quoted above (fewer flights) and look at BHX's next years United schedule............oh yes there isn't one but as the poster said MAN-EWR is one of the most profitable!

With a fairly old 757 on the route and only 16 BF seats I think a bit of realism is needed although I would be surprised if the route disappeared.

Pete

Agreed that realism is required.

However I should point out that (based on the numbers) UA tend to be counter seasonal at MAN for some reason. Take January 2017 for example - 9,461 (91.4% lf).

Obviously within this, some days will be more popular than others. Even in the quieter summer months I would expect days where the flight is overbooked and days where it is very empty. Just the nature of the business.

You're talking about a route that has lost all the cargo capacity of the DC10 and B777 days. I would be surprised to see it go but it depends on what replaces the ex CO B757 fleet tbh.

Probably been said before, but I cant remember what CO/UA started with and went to 1x 777, 1xMD11, 2x757 and now the lonesome single 757. Best we can hope for is a lonesome 737MAX upgrade in a few years if the service survives (said in a Eeyore voice).

United Says 737 Max Could Fly Transatlantic, But Not Right Away | Air Transport News: Aviation International News

Yes, EZY appeared to be quite the shambles this weekend.

We finally departed CPH for MAN at 0105, for a 2150 scheduled departure on Sunday. Three different excuses offered by the airline to their staff on the ground, before the captain confirmed the aircraft had been stuck for hours at MAN due to a lack of crew. Passengers on the LGW and EDI flights also had a similar experience.

This was after an hour delay on the way out whilst we were awaiting our pilot to arrive in a taxi from NCL.

Still, I suppose we should count ourselves lucky at managing to get home at 3am on Monday morning - the same Mon and Tue flights both appear to have been cancelled entirely.

MAN-EWR

Personally,I think it's pretty equal odds whether United pull the route, continue with a B757 until they are retired, or introduce a larger aircraft, and I've no specific information.

The figures do suggest that UA has suffered over the summer due to increased competition, but loads haven't fallen over a cliff by any means.

Dobbo has a point in that the LF in January this year was 90% and only marginally less in February. What will happen this winter on NY with TCX operating flights as well as VS remains to be seen.

OltonPete, I appreciate seat plans are only a guide but from frequent reviews of both MAN & BHX on the morning of departures, I would suggest that MAN does rather better in the 16 J class seats. I know there are various qualifications re loyalty and free upgrades, discounted business fares that may be available etc. that affect yield but if MAN does better in J, it may well be a decisive factor despite the limited number of seats.

My observations indicated that Economy plus varies considerably but I agree BHX often got more patronage at the back.

Skipness is right, there is a huge cargo capacity loss with operating the 757. I used to fly on the CO 777 and there always appeared to be lots of cargo waiting to be loaded. Mind you, over the years, both UA & AA have both let their dominant TA services slide. Either they should use suitable competitive hardware or give up, neither are currently very competitive.

STAFF EAST WHAT A JOKE.

Perhaps the Manchester airport management might like to take a few minutes away from counting their money and come and have a look at the queues to get out of STAFF EAST.

Profits before people.

Not just the queue to get out of Staff Far East, how about the transit time once you are on the bus, 40-50 minutes has been known recently. I'm suspect that I will be late for report at this rate, it's not acceptable to be parking up in the car park an hour before report.

MANFOD

I used to check the seat maps for MAN, BHX & EDI regularly but not for around a year now. I found both MAN and BHX strong in business well in advance of the departure date as well but as you say we have no idea how many were full fares and how many were upgrades.

However one area where the Manchester service beat the BHX service hands down was 45 premium economy seats. A few months prior to departure BHX was always light usually around 5-10 seats taken whereas Manchester usually had around 20-30.

Again I suppose not particularly a reliable source of information without knowing the actual fares paid but this was a regular pattern at times during 2016 and whether this aspect is keeping the Manchester service going we will probably never know.

As for fares, I only used to check economy and BHX/EDI/MAN were pretty similar outside of the peak months with few bargain economy seats outside of January and February.

It is one of those services that you would not be surprised to see upgraded or surprised to see it go and despite the 757 still having a few more years left it won't be too long before something happens.

As posted on the Flybe thread it appears Luxemburg is getting loaded for winter.

Pete

I think that hits the nail on the head.

What I would say is that UA80 is the only *A route into UA's USA network from MAN (they don't allow ex MAN connections on SQ). That's obviously not to say it makes the route a special case, but is persuasive. Let's see...

It's actually quicker walking back there some days.

Agree with the posts above ref staff (FAR) east, took me an hour and a quarter from checkout to drive back past the terminal to get on the M56 yesterday and not much better today! OTP has been effected at most airlines out of T1/3 due to the comedy car parking and bussing.
Then the airport close 330m of taxiway to the 23R threshold (giving the controllers and operators less options for departures) and turn it into ..... you guessed it a car park!

Someone at MAG has seriously got their priorities wrong.

Ivor

With the airlines paying f*** all, how does the airport make money?

Yes - the airlines should pull their finger out and pay the going rate for their people to park.

Ok, so no Airlines putting tens of millions of pax through Manchester airport each year and all those shops will make no money, they will make no money from their car parks etc etc etc.

Why not just do away with the airlines and watch the Airport go bankrupt immediately.
Manchester airport needs airlines to make money, the airport and airlines need staff to help the airport make money.

The airport does not provide free staff parking to my airline, it cost them.

You are talking a load of tosh.

What do you suggest, a staff carpark in Congleton so that Staff East can be used to make loads of money of passengers again?

Why when I am on minimum legal rest should I have to spend 50 minuites to travel just half a mile when on Airport roads trying to get home and arrive at work an hour before I am due to report for duty as it will take that long to get from the car park to the terminal and then through security?:ugh:

They might as well close 23L and turn that into a carpark as it hardly fulfills much of it's potential as second runway anyway!

I'm suggesting if your airline hadn't driven airport fees down, the airport might prioritise airline staff over paying customers.

Your airline could pay for you to park nearer the terminal - not the airports problem they are too tight to do so.

Also, not the airports fault you are on minimum rest - now who would be responsible for that? Think your problems start a bit closer to home.

It will be the airports problem if it continues to effect the airlines OTP (which it is) and passengers chose to fly with different airlines or from different airports (which they are). When lack of rest is a contributory factor in an incident or (God forbid) accident the airport as well as the operator will come under the spotlight.

If the airport want the airlines to operate here and channel the pax through their shopping mall passengers and airlines/employees need to be treated as an asset!

Ivor

But we regularly hear airlines saying that safety is of paramount importance. Airline staff could be parking next to the terminal if the airlines would pay for it - it is their choice that they don't.

If airlines want to use airports they need to recognise that there is a price. They need to leave enough meat on the bone for every one.

They then insist on putting a price on everything and then moan when others do the same

If you work at LHR I believe the staff car park is somewhere along the northern perimeter & have to take a bus in. At LGW the staff car park was nearer to Charlwood than the terminal when I worked there & a considerable bus ride in (especially to the north terminal.)
I can understand the frustrations / concerns for crew at the extension of to their working day but I don't think it is the only airport that faces this challenge. Maybe those crews based at these (& similar airports) have had duty days amended to accommodate?

I work for an airport hotel transporting passengers to and from the hotel to the airport. The experience is horrendous. Regular transport to all terminals, particularly T3 is a joke. What can be done? MAG, you tell me. You are all about car parking it appears, T1 petrol station is now, a Car park!! T1 meet and greet is so badly located on a one way road leading on times of congestion to regular long queues. Don't tell me it's on odd occasions because you know it's not. Think about people not profit for a change ����

You've got to wonder about the pay scales at MAG. Similar to the airlines, for sure. The people at the top are greedy conniving types who care for nothing but lining their own pockets.

Like senior council managers, really.

I think the best way to sum up the current situation is abysmal. Car parking abysmal. Public transport abysmal.. T3 abysmal. Drop off abysmal, infrastructure abysmal. Walkways & lifts abysmal, traffic flow abysmal. Even in off peak times it's abysmal customer service. I live on the airport doorstep and seriously now looking at other options for future travel. MAG guys, I think you have reached your tipping point.

They need to flatten the whole place and start again

I must admit I dread going near the place these days. I recently persuaded a client to hold a meeting online rather than have a physical meeting in the States. It saved me and others the grief of the MAN experience.
I think the only way that the owners will do something is if those of us who are members of FF schemes (particularly elite members) write to the airlines concerned and say that the experience has become intolerable.
MAG famously don't think of pax as customers (which is why they don't care about the pax experience) but the airlines and concessionaires as their customers. They will listen to the airlines.

While I agree that the current MAN set up is a bit, well, sh*t, I do think that on the other hand, avoiding trips abroad or traveling miles out of your way to another airport is a bit OTT.

It's an airport, it's a means to getting on a plane. Does it have a loo? Does it have a place to grab some food and does it have a place to pick up a magazine and sweets for the plane? If it has those 3, I don't really care about how it looks, how it functions and such.

The airport is essentially a large waiting room. If it's not waiting for security, it's waiting for a coffee etc, what else am I going to do for the 2-3 hours other than sit in a plush chair of a lounge at most?

I think some people are just a bit precious to be honest, but maybe that me, and I focus on the holiday or business trip rather than 2 hours in an airport, you know, the actual important things in life......

Only used MAN as a fare paying pax twice this year (Terminals 2 and 3) but it was fine - better than some, worse than others but served its purpose.

Perhaps it is indeed you.

I've flown eight sectors in the last six days and can safely say that the Manchester experience was by far the worst and most stressful of any. I would go out of my way to avoid it.

Terminal 3 at peak times is like some Guinness World Record attempt to create the world's biggest stag party. No seating, no ability to get near any form of food or retail outlet due to groups standing around with nowhere else to go but with empty pint glasses littering every surface and the floor.

The biggest problem is security. Queues at MAN and EMA are some of the worst out there and a far cry from those at LGW, GLA or NCL. The MAG airports are unique in having a policy of banning passengers from using mobile devices in the queues, so your efforts to use the 20 minute wait productively to keep up to date with emails or messages are met with a shouty person whose sole purpose is to tell you that you can't use your mobile and it's for "your safety". Utter bollocks. No other uk airports do this and it's a pure MAG thing, nothing to do with DFT or CAA requirements.

The MAG queue comber then shouts at you to get your liquids and laptops out of your bag - expecting you to adopt octopus-like capabilities to carry the items and your bag separately and yet still have a free hand to pull out a tray to put these items in when you do eventually reach the screening make-up area. You are then mildly intimidated by being yelled at (again) by someone less than a metre away telling you that if you fail to get all items for separate search out of your bag, you will be delayed by at least 20 minutes.

Lax_LHR, as the chief apologist for MAG on here, please do your passengers a favour and go see how other airports do it. Gatwick, Heathrow and Glasgow would be good examples. The current pathway through MAN T3 and EMA for customers is a disgrace by comparison. It really is that bad. An airport operating safely and in compliance with regulations does not need to treat its customers so poorly and the airports need to radically change how they manage this important area of the journey. This is very specific to MAG and not a wider criticism of other airports, many of whom do this far better within similarly constrained infrastructure. It is all about procedures and staff training, where someone has sadly got hold of this at MAN and EMA to the detriment of the travelling public.

albert,

Chief apologist? Maybe need to read line one of my post again.

The rest of my post is about airports in general. And airports in general can be a bit sh*t.

JFK regularly has immigration queues if 2 hours. I've spent 3 hours in one at LAX. 2 hours in Dallas and 1.5 in LAS.

BHX has had it bad this summer, father in law a frequent flyer too and had a bad experience in FRA, LTN a pit and even DUS had to send out advisories this week about longer security checks.

Yes, MAN is bad, but the worst? Not by a long shot. I really do question people's motives or true travelling habits if MAN is the worst they have seen.

If course it can and should be done better, but If the above makes me an apologist, then I honestly don't care, I shan't be loosing any sleep, that's a certainty!

"They might as well close 23L and turn that into a carpark as it hardly fulfills much of it's potential as second runway anyway".

No idea on the Manchester experience but like MAG'S other major offering STN. I assume it's functional.

My main point however is runways.I would ask somebody in Air traffic if they agree with the statement above ?

Given the eyewatering figures for a new runway at Heathrow I would say the cost of the second runway at Manchester was a bargain.

Brighter people than me will know the figures but I doubt Manchester could achieve 28m on a single runway operation due to the close proximity of the terminal.

In terms of cost be in no doubt it was a bargain if compared to a similar structure of
£8,000,000,000 million at Heathrow.

I had a lovely trip from TXL via LHR to MAN with BA where I had the pleasure to get stuck in the "FAST TRACK" lane for security in LHR T5 for 90min. I had 5 minutes spare to catch my flight to MAN. But to top it of on arrival in MAN I had the next pleasure to get told that my bag was still in LHR. Be careful what you wish for! Bye the way MAN offer Fast track security for 5 pond a person ( but hang on on there is an offer 2 people for 7.50 pound).

MAN imperfect, but what's the alternative?
 

I think BTNH is closer to the truth than most.

MAN may not be an entirely pleasurable experience ( some terminals more than others), but if the alternative is to fly from LHR then it's no contest.

The train is undoubtedly the least stressful way to come and go - the main priority there is better services to places south of MCR, and services which cover more hours of the day/night. An 0600 flight departure or a 2200 arrival may rule out the train to and from home.

Services to Manchester City Centre and south Manchester are well covered through both day & night.

MAG, Northern & Network Rail should work to introduce overnight services to Warrington and Liverpool initially and daytime services towards Crewe & Birmingham.

The best hope is that the Metrolink network begins 24 hour operation (on certain lines) to provide local overnight connectivity.