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Nigel - Yes, I'm familiar with Air India's track-record over the years. I remember the A310 schedule via Rome very well. Indeed, that is partly why I don't wish to see a replay of Air India playing off one airport against another as they have done in the past. Bangladesh Biman have behaved similarly in more recent times - that worked out well! Messing about with the schedules as these two carriers have done undermines the credibility of the service and disrupts the opportunity to build loyalty and momentum in either market. Far better to develop standalone services from both BHX and MAN and develop them on their own merits.
Slightly off-topic: Seljuk22 has posted Emirates forthcoming network changes over on the 'Emirates' thread. No mention of the rumoured switch to a third daily A388 on MAN-DXB effective 01 Dec. But other changes are outlined elsewhere on the network effective from that date. I fear the third daily A388 rumour may have been a bit premature. |
Air India at BHX
Pulling out - Just the opposite !
BHX delegation in India as we speak Paul Kehoe CEO tweeting saying excellent meeting with High Commissioner, UK in India, Brum, BHX and Shakespeare. Which will lead to making the schedule even more successful than it is now. So dont hold your breath ! |
To remind BHX5DME, AI went public with intention of increasing frequency to MAN as one of several key destinations that they wanted to expand in 1999. 6 weeks later, they pulled out. Other airlines have been known to sing high praises of a route only to withdraw shortly afterwards.
I, too, don't particularly like idea of substituting MAN for BHX. THere should be plenty of room for both services. |
Slightly off-topic: Seljuk22 has posted Emirates forthcoming network changes over on the 'Emirates' thread. No mention of the rumoured switch to a third daily A388 on MAN-DXB effective 01 Dec. But other changes are outlined elsewhere on the network effective from that date. I fear the third daily A388 rumour may have been a bit premature. Shed, There is a bit of shuffling to do before MAN gets announced. Our B77W is to be used on another European route, so, that gets the fanfare first, then the other. EK19/20 upgrade was announced a mere 3 weeks before it happened. Last time I looked at my calander we were still in May, so, fear not! BHX delegation in India as we speak While I am not advocating the cessation of BHX, I do find it odd that a few weeks ago Paul Kehoe sent quite a few 'tweets' that seemed to indicate the MAN news had taken him by surprise and almost seemed peed off that MAN was suddenly on the table, and then all of a sudden this week he and Will Pearson is in Delhi to talk to Air India, and talk up the route in India..... That screams a guy whos had has feathers ruffled and wanted assurances after putting up so much time and money getting Air India back..... |
Thanks for that, LAX_LHR. I'll keep the fingers crossed for December then.
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Originally Posted by LAX_LHR
(Post 8991690)
Shed,
There is a bit of shuffling to do before MAN gets announced. Our B77W is to be used on another European route, so, that gets the fanfare first, then the other. EK19/20 upgrade was announced a mere 3 weeks before it happened. Last time I looked at my calander we were still in May, so, fear not! While I am not advocating the cessation of BHX, I do find it odd that a few weeks ago Paul Kehoe sent quite a few 'tweets' that seemed to indicate the MAN news had taken him by surprise and almost seemed peed off that MAN was suddenly on the table, and then all of a sudden this week he and Will Pearson is in Delhi to talk to Air India, and talk up the route in India..... That screams a guy whos had has feathers ruffled and wanted assurances after putting up so much time and money getting Air India back..... Lax-lhr always speaks the sense on this forum !:) Furthermore has anyone got access GDS to prove air India at Manchester ? :ok: |
Lax- LHR / Shed
Was on lunchtime EK flight today, coming back from HK via DXB and talking to crew at the bar they believed that 380 will be on the morning route very soon, as it is "such a game changer with their passengers" to quote them. Did not use CX service as I had to see someone in DXB before anyone comments. Incidentally load factors were good in all class's apparently and it is often difficult to get seats up stairs so the extra capacity is needed. As for AI I for one would not hold my breath, as having had to use them in India I can not say I was impressed in anyway shape or form, and as others have said the Indian centres of population in the UK are more midlands and SE than NW / NE so why Manchester. Another factor would be if you are doing business in "Incredible India" it is easier to change in the Gulf and fly on direct to your destination, as anyone who has experienced changing planes, or even arriving in India will tell you. Indian airports can be some what chaotic to say the least, so to minimalize any issues I have always, and will continue to do the DXB soft shoe shuffle where possible if internal travel is not required. Regards Mr Mac |
Mr Mac
Whilst agreeing with you on Air India (not one of the best airlines in the world putting it kindly and erm not even the best airline in India) I would disagree with you on Delhi Airport which is a surprising pleasure to go through and to transit. I'm ashamed to say I think it is better than Manchester physically. |
Jet2 LYS
Jet 1 weekly to LYS winter only on Saturdays
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Austrian confirmed as daily from 10th Sept
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With the INN flights over winter too means we have 2 OS flights on Saturdays.
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Austrian
In GDS 11.35 in and 13.10 out aircraft F100 on a few dates I checked but I suppose this will move to the ex LH Cityline 195's once they transfer.
Pete |
AUSTRIAN
Very good news for me (I think) connection wise, as I'm generally moving back to *A having fallen out with AF/KL - or more specifically Terminal 3. I can see myself on this....although the timings look a little suspect. They smack more of a point to point schedule. I was in VIE only a couple of weeks ago and had to go through FRA, which was a pain. There were two other (business) people in the security line at FRA behind me doing the same MAN-VIE trip. Again though, I don't think this is going to be a biz friendly schedule. We'll see what it's like for connections. OS is my favourite *A airline - a nice, friendly relaxed vibe about it and they are as efficient as LH or LX. VIE itself is not as great for the transit experience as it used to be before the new mega terminal addition but it still beats FRA or MUC hands down. And for those who don't like being bussed to the gate, this is not for you. You WILL be bussed to your F100 aircraft parked out on the ramp. For those that haven't been to Vienna for the tourist thing, it's a fabulous city but be prepared to be overwhelmed by huge Chinese tourist people juggernauts sweeping all before them. Also from Vienna Airport it's almost as quick to get to Bratislava (45 mins or so by bus) also worth visiting. You can easily do both in a short visit :ok: |
What happend to LH435 ORD-MUC?
Today's routing ORD-YUL-MAN-MUC :confused: |
Reports coming out that US department of homeland security have announced MAN (and LHR as well as some other EU airports) are to get pre clearance facilities.
No timescale given yet. |
Business wire.com confirms your posting LAX_LHR.
Thanks for the 'heads up'. |
Possible locations based on busy entry points to the US according to official release.
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It does indeed say negotiations with the 10 airports, but, I assume MAN would be up for having the facility, but its obviously up to the UK govt to give the thumbs up.
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The 10 airports for US pre-clearance trials are:
Brussels Airport, Belgium; Punta Cana Airport, Dominican Republic; Narita International Airport, Japan; Amsterdam Airport Schipol, Netherlands; Oslo Airport, Norway; Madrid-Barajas Airport, Spain; Stockholm Arlanda Airport, Sweden; Istanbul Ataturk Airport, Turkey; and London Heathrow Airport and Manchester Airport, United Kingdom. As you can see it not only EU airports |
I didn't say the list was exclusive to EU airports, I meant that some other EU countries were going for it.
Doing a bit of digging, it seems the list is only inclusive of governments that have already said they are willing to host US customs (hence no France or Germany airports despite their large US offering so one can assume they have said non/nein). So, I assume the main work is done and negotiations refer to seeing which airlines willing are to pay for said service and where in the airports the sterile area could be (pier C or part of T2 stand out for MAN). |
This US pre-clearance statement represents outstanding news for MAN. As the Department of Homeland Security states that there is a negotiation process required, it might be worth making it known to our MP's that we the public urge them to lend their enthusiastic support to expediting this initiative.
With MAN also expected to announce a major redevelopment of T2 in the near term, the opportunity exists to incorporate a purpose-built pre-immigration facility designed into the new infrastructure there. And then to allocate a block of adjacent gates with business lounges and all the trimmings to service all MAN-USA flights to world-class standards. This has the makings of a truly game-changing innovation for MAN. What an opportunity. The airport could even attract some of those fifth freedom type operations (similar to Ethiopian via DUB) on the back of this. I thought today's Austrian Airlines announcement was good, but this news is just awesome*. Get it done. Then all we need is to scrap Anti-Prosperity Duty! Time to break open that bottle of Vimto I've been saving for a special occasion. *Word selected in tribute to the US DHS! |
Opportunity to get one over on LHR, they'd need to re-design much of LHR to give sterile areas across T5/4/3/2 or allow one group to have a competitive advantage. MAN would need to do this properly though, no silly cheapo half measures.
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Apparently the UK govt has given the green light for this, as the list is only of countries that the government has allowed armed US customs officers on their territory, and, the airports are ones that have bidded for the USPBC and the DHS has deemed the airports suitable to house the facility.
It seems its just down the the airport and airlines to figure out how they are going to do it and pay for it, but, as MAN put in an application one can only assume they are happy to pay and have a plan. |
In terms of airlines using USPBC at MAN
AA have already said they welcome it, one would assume VS/DL would use it having up to 5 daily flights to the US. This also has TCX written all over it given their large US expansion. UA would also be a given. The only US bound I dont see using it is TOM. They only have 3/4 weekly SFB flights, which is hardly a huge trial compared to a MAN USPBC area, so, doubt they would want to use it. What also helps MAN is the fact the current last flight to the US departs before 2pm, as I understand the DUB/SNN facilities close at a certain time, so, MAN seems a good fit for this facility. |
DLH435 diverted to CYUL due sick passenger. Planned to EGCC as crew out of hours for EDDM. Crew change at EGCC.
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pre Clearance
If you read the DHS press release it is clear that negotiations with national governments are still to take place. This will not be a quick process...the UK government doesn't like non-UK forces wandering around on our soil with guns...
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US forces have been trusted on UK soil with guns since WW2. It is certain that HMG has already been sounded out about its attitude towards the prospect of US pre-clearance. However, it won't do any harm to urge our MP's to expedite the necessary negotiations.
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I'm assuming those that are lauding this pre-clearance news as the holy grail are not regular travelers to the US.
Having once tried this at Dublin, I honestly didn't find it saved me any time - the time you save at the US end is lost at the home end. When compared to the alternatives now increasingly available at the main US entry points its advantages wane: 1. Global Entry is thee way to do it if you are a regular traveler to the US 2. When you are a returning ESTA ie it's not the first time you've used that ESTA, you basically go to an automated booth that actually works, and fast (take note UK Border 'Force') then it's usually a short queue to an officer that completes the process in a jiffy. Pre-clearance will no doubt help the tourists speed their way to see Mickey and Donald and first time visitors will benefit but I fail to see how this in itself will boost passenger numbers. Get rid of APD, now that would be a game changer. One specific thing about MAN that might make it difficult is that it has flights to the US from all three terminals - that would surely require 3 separate facilities no? |
I too am a little sceptical of the benefits of pre clearance. I assume all the US bound airlines will have to shuffled to operate from the same terminal. Then a need improve transfer pax experience to the US terminal.
Then given the nature of MAN, add on the US queue time to the already lenghty bag drop queue, the security queue. Then the airport will want to ensure plenty of duty free time- they will be asking you to check in 4 hours in advance. The cost of the operation would barely justify the benifits. Then this US sterile area will be empty for 16 hours a day. I've passed through ATL many a time and immigration has varied from 10 minutes to an hour, which isn't that different from arriving into MAN. I've also done the DUB pre clearance, that was OK with no queue - but,when I used it, it was a single flight- hardly the case at MAN. Re the Austrian service, from what I can see the lowest available fares are over £300 return, so it is hardly going to be a "winner" when you can still book with Lufthansa with one stop for half that amount. Given the flight times, there appears little advantage of the direct service. Jet2 3 x a week service I suspect will not be affected by this new service, this also runs in at about half the Austrian fares.(but obviously without the interline options) |
One specific thing about MAN that might make it difficult is that it has flights to the US from all three terminals - that would surely require 3 separate facilities no? Then this US sterile area will be empty for 16 hours a day. Apparently the UK govt has given the green light for this, as the list is only of countries that the government has allowed armed US customs officers on their territory, and, the airports are ones that have bidded for the USPBC and the DHS has deemed the airports suitable to house the facility. And it is encouraging to see that again according to the above quote, that MAN have made a bid and US DHS has approved it. You see Bagso, you never know what is going on in the background out of the public domain...:ok: So if MAN has made a bid and it has been accepted, they obviously have a cunning plan in place to do this, so we need to await the details. Whether we will have to wait for the terminal redevelopments or some thing will be possible in the shorter term remains to be revealed. But as other posters have pointed out, this gives an ideal opportunity to provide a proper integrated facility as part of whatever the re-development is. |
I have THREE TIMES missed connections at US hubs specifically because of the dire immigration queues. And in theory, all of those connections offered generous connecting time (around 3 hours). I don't care that the process will take just as long at MAN, my arrival time at the airport is under my control there. I do mind constantly missing advertised connections stateside and having to join a huge queue for re-booking. THAT is the beauty of pre-clearance. And yes, it is well worth having.
MAN also has the advantage of potentially introducing this in parallel with their major terminals redevelopment. They have the opportunity to design-in the best facility of its kind. Let's hope they do. |
Originally Posted by Suzeman
(Post 8994543)
I'm sure the US authorities will only want one facility due to cost reasons; that's why the DUB one doesn't cover flights later in the day. That means that it will be impossible to fit all the US flights in unless they are moved to the terminal with the facility and what does that do to terminal capacity?
If I remember correctly, the DUB facility is flexible, so that when the US bit closes, most of the area can be used for "ordinary" flights It certainly used to be the case that there was a need for the UK to enact legislation to allow USPBC to take place on UK territory. Not sure whether this is still the case, but it would appear if LAX-LHR is correct that at least progress is being made now. And it is encouraging to see that again according to the above quote, that MAN have made a bid and US DHS has approved it. You see Bagso, you never know what is going on in the background out of the public domain...:ok: So if MAN has made a bid and it has been accepted, they obviously have a cunning plan in place to do this, so we need to await the details. Whether we will have to wait for the terminal redevelopments or some thing will be possible in the shorter term remains to be revealed. But as other posters have pointed out, this gives an ideal opportunity to provide a proper integrated facility as part of whatever the re-development is. I have found it very useful when using it. The key was not to go down too early as there was only a WH Smith (Smyth?) And nothing else down there. I believe they're adding more facilities now though. What time does the last flight to the US leave MAN? One of the issues is that say if the facility is only open for 7 or 8 hours, shop/restaurant companies are less willing to pay to sell for that short a time vs opening in a more general area, so realistically any bars etc will need to be run by the airport authority themselves. Expensive but worth it I would think. Not a problem the likes of YYZ and YUL face in their pre clearance areas as they have flights to the US all day long and can justify the expense |
With all due respect Shed there is a big difference between US forces on a base or on exercise, to armed Customs officials on duty at an airport. There is enough controversy about arming our own police forces.
The US may have spoken to DfT and received a warm response: let's just see how the Home Office responds. I do wonder if this is a driver behind the expected terminal redesign. Having to develop three separate sterile areas (I.e. one per terminal) can't be an attractive proposition. |
Flag waving MAN!
Austrian is another recaptured flag carrier for MAN. Who remembers the DC9-30s back in the 1980s? Route taken over by Lauda in the '90s and then disappeared after 9/11, I think. Good to see them back, and with Iberia (Express) and Egyptair (again) this year, plus all the others, what a portfolio MAN has!
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PIA
PIA are using 777-300 AP-bhw on today's JFK flight as apparently seats are sold out..
Can anyone confirm the reasoning behind this as its a interesting last second adjustment from them... Note: PIA normally use 777-200LR |
as the list is only of countries that the government has allowed armed US customs officers on their territory, and, the airports are ones that have bidded for the USPBC and the DHS has deemed the airports suitable to house the facility. |
To be fair Suzeman a few of us have been banging on about this for more than a few years, long before EI cottoned on to feeding these flights !
That said i have little doubt like us, the Manch management are becoming more than a bit concerned about DUB and the high frequencies this is now attracting from eg Leeds and now of course Liverpool. It would have been nice to have been proactive rather than reactive and I have no doubt somebody has finally woken up to the threat DUB poses, but hallaluah, rejoice we are there at last, brilliant news and i agree a possible "gamechanger". I just hope upon absolute hope we don't get some meddling MP or civil servant sticking the boot in re soveriegn territory issues etc etc when they are utterley clueless supporting other aspects of the MAN operation. |
To be fair Suzeman a few of us have been banging on about this for more than a few years, long before EI cottoned on to feeding these flights ! MAN first looked at this long before you started banging on on here. The state of UK legislation did not allow this sort of thing anywhere in the UK at the time. Things have now moved on and the UK Govt have decided that it may be possible. The US also appear more amenable to extending their facilities. I think that intergovernmental talks on the issue were mentioned on here a couple of years ago. It would have been nice to have been proactive rather than reactive and I have no doubt somebody has finally woken up to the threat DUB poses, |
The fact MAN is in the list of the 'next 10' USPBC centres shows that the UK govt have likely already agreed to allowing it. You will notice some quite large omissions from the list, notably FRA/MUC/FCO/MXP/CDG/ICN/KEF, presumably because their governments have said 'thanks but no thanks'.
In terms of Austrian, GDS and the OS website show them using T2 at MAN. I assume this will change given OS is part of the LH group, with their group counterparts, LH/LX, being in T1? |
LAX, please stop misrepresenting what is actually in the press release. MAN is indeed one of 10 airports that the U.S. Is looking to take forward negotiations with and whose Governments could be seen as amenable to the idea of pre-clearance, however it is not a given that the airports listed are the 'next 10'.
Also, assuming that a similar process is required to that used to develop pre clearance in Ireland, you firstly have to negotiate to reach an agreement between Governments and there would then almost certainly need to be a change in current legislation to bring the agreement into force. At the same time the airport(s) in question have to develop proposals acceptable under the agreement for the physical location and practical operation of the facility. Not a quick process. |
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