btw Continental are reverting back to a singal 767-400 within the coming months


G-STAW

BA in the Regions
 

Hi guys
I don't think that you will ever persuade some of the London-centric posters on this site. Birmingham had the second highest proportion of business travellers on its BA flights after Heathrow ( I worked in revenue management for BAR and Connect). Still we were told that services didn't make money. That says more about the airline and its inability to manage costs than the travel preferences of regional business and leisure travelers.
So Manchester, Birmingham and the Scottish Airports have lost BA international services, who cares? BA service is mediocre at best, they have an terrible record for timekeeping, lost luggage and customer service. Lets welcome new airlines to the UK regions and let BA consolidate and consolidate at its three (for now) London bases.
Daza

Plane spotters fantasy. In the real world, American are being "encouraged" to retrench to Heathrow and not rock the OneWorld boat by having an oddball long haul from Manchester. For the first time, it's not even daily this winter, so no longer reliable for business travellers. This is the sly and dishonest way of withdrawing a route over the mid term.
As for Delta B777s, I'll file this next to the NWA B757-200s to Detroit.

Sterling job peeps, really amazing work there.

Think we both know this is untrue, the front was full of upgrades. Revenue management were tearing their hair out over the unwillingness of their regulars to use the direct service and fly from Birmingham and Glasgow. Certain other parts of BA ( think Exec Club cardholders )kept booking them on bigger aircraft over LHR to keep the Shuttle loads and the JFK load factors up. Left hand right hand etc etc

Will Ba Come Back?
 

I've been around long enough to recall that BA withdrew MAN-JFK in 1981, apparently for good. They were flying it with B707s and VC10s at the time. But in 1985 they were back on the route in response to a growing long-haul presence at MAN, including the likes of Qantas and the imminent arrival of American Airlines and Singapore Airlines. BA stayed on the route and grew it from 3 x weekly to daily. There were changes of equipment from L1011 TriStar, to B747 and DC10 following the BCAL take-over. In the mid 1990s it went to a daily B767 where it stayed until this weekend.

Could they come back again? Less likely this time, as they now have no domestic or European base at MAN any longer to support it, just the London links. OpenSkies? well never say never, but probably not. With onerous rumours surrounding bmi Atlantic services the future for MAN as a long-haul airport looks challenging for the foreseeable. I say that with great sadness as one who witnessed the heady years of the 1980s and 90s when MANs network spanned 5 continents. More than ever the city and its airport must work closely to ensure that it grows its profile as an international business centre, for it is those passengers at the 'pointy end' paying the bigger bucks who convince airlines to open long-haul routes. More Spinningfields / Media Citys / Knowledge Capitals required!

I remember British Airways Holidays would always try and funnel any US tourists, visiting the UK on a fly-drive holiday, from New York into Manchester rather than Heathrow

There's some ill-informed, London-centric garbage been written in the last few pages.

The only poster I CAN 100% Commend is comet.

BA senior management are absolute scum. They can easily make a profit out of the regions, but decide not to. The MAN-JFK flight had high load factors, and crucially high yield factors, so what did BA do, they tried to discredit it by "loaning" the aircraft out to BAR and then fiddling the figures to make it look worse than it was, even then it performed well. They also never marketed the route in the states, and often the fares via LHR were cheaper than the direct.

They forced IB, QF and AA off their MAN routes, just to keep everything via the OneWorld hub in LHR.

Crooked, imbecilic, incomprehensibly stupid. These words sum up BA management.I smile regularly when I read of the Cargo three being banged up for the price fixing, and I wouldn't shed a tear if WW had a horrible life-threatening illness either.

London Airways, please go out of business soon, and do the rest of the UK a favour.

[I][There's some ill-informed, London-centric garbage been written in the last few pages./I]

Spoken like a true un-biased gent !!!!

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck............

Well glad we've got that sorted out. All you need to do is tell all those people who tried to move Heaven and Earth to make it work and we're done. How many times do you guys have to be told? There is no pot of gold in Manchester!
Are Virgin moving in to fill the gap? Are BMI? No? OK let's drop a level. Flyglobespan? Jet2? No. Why is no full service British airline rushing into MAN to fill the void?

Excargoclown says This is also true of CDG-LAX via LHR on Air France......tis quite common in the industry, you pay a premium to fly direct.

QANTAS don't need to fly a 747 LHR-MAN as BA carry that sector for them at less cost, a sound business decision. QANTAS return the favour in OZ to MEL and so forth, this is standard commercial practice in an alliance, in this case ONEWORLD. Iberia are free to return now BA are no longer on the route. Do we see Iberia returning? I suspect you may be right about American though.

There is no pot of gold in Manchester!

Maybe not?

But I should think there should be at the least 1 UK full service carrier doing a NY.

I would have thought VS would have had a go at say 3 X a week, And running the MCO on the other 4 days?

Or whatever.

I still find it hard to believe there is a 7 day demand in winter for MCO?

The other main problem at MAN is the Airport is too busy pushing the 'Loco' services forward, FR & EZY And not paying as much attention to the full service marketing?

Will MAN be 'Flooded' out with 'Loco's by 2010?

There should be some 'Gold Pots' in MAN - It is one of our biggest cities.

There is a pot of Gold in Manchester and one which BA were taking, and then re-diverting to the LHR coffers.

I can't speak for BHX, NCL, BFS etc, but I do know that BAR were making a profit out of MAN if you took into account the hideous amount of money that mainline took out through "internal accounting". It's a little like the famous LGW shorthaul paying for Concord's fuel on their budget, if BA want to discredit a station or route they do so through manipulating figures, a little like nu-Labour do.

And if you think MAN was a loss making station, have a wander through Waterworld one day, see the Coffee-quaffing morons sat out staring at the lake on their mega-MG grades with such amazing titles as "Bread Rolls Europe" etc..... Do they go on mainline's budget ?? Compare that to MAN I don't believe there were many surplus to requirement staff there...

As for the 1502/3 the oft quoted "poor premium yields" is absolute rubbish, I can categorically state that. In actual fact, it had better yields per seat than quite a few LHR routes, and most LGW ones.....

I agree totally Ex Cargo Clown.

To be honest, I think the whole BA issue comes down to - Jealousy:=

The BA LHR Bods see MAN as a 'Threat' and as you say were transferring MAN's profits and turning them into LHR ones?

And Waterworld yes, I agree it's like another world.:hmm:

And to be honest, I can see BA in about 10 years time stating - Pulling LH out of MAN was on of the biggest mistakes......:zzz:

And the 'fuel' beancounters will be 'Kicking' themselves when they realise that they have an extra 767 queing up at 27L /R 7 days a week burning off 'precious' juice.:ugh:

Wheras, At MAN it was alot easier in hindsight.:*

And what about all the 'Olympic' traffic coming in, How saturated will the Row become?

BA out of Manchester
 

Who really cares if BA decide to take there operation to London does it really make any difference whatsoever? everybody across the UK has seen exactly the way BA has pitched themselves its just a case of dealing with it!
BA have never hidden the fact that all they want on there aircraft is First and business passengers you and I know that all to well, so them pulling out of Manchester was not that much of a suprise, BA are right there not getting enough business class pax out of Manchester so be it, they with drew the JFK flight, good ridance I say BA have not been the worlds favourite airline for over 10 years, everybody should sit back and appreciate the slow demise of what was once the pride of the world, if you need to fly, then book on airlines that really want your business.

"stop harping on about poor little Manchester losing BA its getting tedious":ugh:

BA at MAN
 

Seems to be a heated issue. I am a not a regular on this thread but have been reading comments with interest about BA and the regions.

I have no idea if BAR/Connect made money at MAN or indeed any other station. But I do remember whilst working at BHX in Operations between 1999-2002 that Eurohub (T2 as it is now) was never particularly busy (except Mon morning and Fri evening) and the BA operation there had an over-bloated, unionised 'BA will never pull out, as if' feel about it among the staff - yes, great facilities and good service but lots of staff and not many pax. Since BA departed BHX forever, the departures board in T2 thanks to FR now looks a whole lot more interesting, there sure is more pax and to the average Joe on the street you can now fly to far more places in Europe than ever before you could with BA. Does the average Joe really care what airline it is as long as it flies to where they want at a price that suits?

OK so MAN is a busier and bigger airport and cannot be directly compared to BHX. And you have just lost a high profile service - but you still have Continental and Delta to NYC and other long haul flights with quality international carriers that BHX can only dream of. Move on cos BA sure have :ok:

Will Ba Comeback To Manchester ?
 

Here are my thoughts.

Domestic -non London virtually no chance,very remote possibility that it will purchase either flybe or bmi regional.

London- possible increase in frequency to LHR in effort to try and top up some flights. LGW i see little change here.

Continental Europe-little chance here, no spare aircraft, AF/KL, LH/LX/SN, SK all well entrenched. Possible increase in code share with flybe.

Long haul- Opportunities here at present. Will see nothing from BA for at least a few years. Boeing 787-8 game changer. Believe are to be fitted out with no first class. Possible routes LAX or SFO not both, HKG if no service by CX. JFK if market not over saturated by then. Pakistan market if political scene quietens down.

If LHR third runway is denied or cancelled by a change of government BA will have to change tact again.

Options.
1. Increase size of aircraft- more A380's

2. Expand in continental Europe- Openskies

3. Expand in UK- Manchester prime candidate, 2 runways, slots available
large catchment area.

A question for Skipnes One Echo was it cheaper to fly LHR-MAN-JFK

No chance, imho the shuttles are on borrowed time. They will be gone within a few years.

Railgun,Skipness

If the shuttles are on borrowed time how are BA going to feed pax into there precious hub.
I am lead to believe that KLM and Lufty are doing exeptionally well from MAN to there hubs in AMS and FRA......WHY, because they are more loyal to there passengers and they have far better airports to transit through than that hell hole off the M25.

Manchester people are sick of there national carrier letting them down so are going for the far better option .

Now go and take a two mile walk off a one mile pier......

I never said the Shuttles were on borrowed time. They are essential to the business model of feeding T5 long haul from the UK and Europe. This thread is degenrating into personal attacks which is a shame. I strongly disagree with a lot of what has been said but I always try to back it up with some information.

What are you basing this on? Do you understand the current hub feeding BA business model? This is also the reason Gatwick is being scaled back. Legacy unionised cost base cannot really compete against easyJet head to head.
You cannot run a multi million pound business like that. OR WHATEVER ?!?!? Putting 3 747s on that route would only attract leisure passengers on a three weekly basis and that is commercial suicide.

It's not "there" it's "their", and even correcting your grammar your facts are in error. BA has been a PLC since 1987, has been listed for 20 years. They are not anybodys national carrier except the shareholders.

Please don't think I'm having a go at MAN, I like the airport and fly through it often enough. I still think it has a fine network of routes, but the future has to be commercially sustainable. BA at Manchester was always going to be massively overshadowed by London. Glasgow and Edinburgh got flyglobespan to breath new life, Leeds got Jet2. I think that UK registered hopes for long haul at MAN lie in that arena in the medium term.

Are there any other happenings at Manchester at the moment? It all seems to be BA BA BA at the moment :ugh:

Skipness, unfortunately you've hit a raw nerve (North vs South) and your sound business sense is falling on deaf ears - and that's from someone who would happily become independent from the South East :}. You're dead right but the truth hurts!

Anyway its the slot conference soon so expect a tsunami of rumours :uhoh: