He was trying - quite understandably - to gloss over the BD route cuts by saying it's a shame, but the destinations they are cutting are still served by other airlines (true), with the exception of Antigua (true again), which was only served once a week (true yet again), as an additional leg on a BGI flight (wrong !!).

As we are all very much aware, ANU is served direct every Friday, while BGI is direct every Saturday and Monday.

Capiche ?.

So, now we know the truth as to where TartinTom's views come from.


...Oh, BTW,the sky is wall to wall blue here today.

theairdb.com reporting MAN-NCE available for booking. No idea yet if its direct or a connection

Shuttle Cancelations
 

"BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles to Heathrow"

"Your domestic passengers get home late"

"You can always get a train or drive"

The first two comments above come from Skipness One Echo, the third is from a posting by Tartin Tom.

Ladies/Gentlemen,

I understand that you speak from the point of view of an airline operator - in this case BA - as I often do myself. However, sometimes it is worth considering also the point of view of the CUSTOMERS (remember them?), as well as the company accountants.

So BA "have no bloody choice" but to cancel Shuttles at the first whiff of a problem, eh? Well that's fine. But the customers do have a choice. They can direct their business towards a carrier which is not notorious for canceling MAN connecting flights on a whim. Examples of more reliable alternative carriers have already been cited by other posters here. I have used alternatives to BA for quite some time now and have not been let down yet. That is a problem BA should take seriously as it is hitting their bottom line. But perhaps they think as you do ...

"Your domestic passengers get home late ..."

Not all domestic passengers are on their way home. Half are on outbound services, and many of those have onward connections. I recall that in August 2006 I turned up at MAN to fly to Miami via Chicago with American Airlines. Princess Cruises had suggested booking me MAN-LHR-MIA with BA; I said "In that case I suggest you quote me cruise only and I will book my own Transatlantic flights from Manchester." Princess relented and booked me via Chicago instead. On the day - guess what - yes, BA had cancelled all the Shuttles again! And there, huddled in a corner (BA and AA both use T3 at MAN) was a distraught tearful group of passengers with 'Princess' baggage labels just like mine. I never saw them again. I was one of 4 people from the Manchester flights who made it to the ship (and mine was a party of two). The gentleman and his wife who also made it to the ship asked me how I had ended up on the AA service and not BA like all the others. I told him that BA frequently cancelled shuttles and that I had refused to trust BA with a cruise departure at stake. He smiled and replied that he had also been let down by BA connections in the past and had refused to be booked with them.

Perhaps BA should remember that if they badly let down a customer once, that customer may NEVER be won back. I wonder how many of the customers in that tearful huddle I saw have booked another BA flight since then? But perhaps BA just don't care anyway. Passengers booked from the North West were unlikely to have been born within earshot of Bow Bells (now those are the folks who really count!). And besides, all Northerners are poor working class types with low wages who can't afford to pay higher yielding fares. That's right - isn't it? So why worry.

Going back to my own experience, I pitched up at LHR on 19th July 2003. WOW - all this has been going on so long (I've just looked up that date). BA had gone on strike, all flights to MAN cancelled. "We suggest you go back home, Sir!", they said. "I would very much like to", I replied, "I've booked you to fly me there."

On the 11th August 2005 I pitched up at LHR again (I really know how to pick 'em!). Oops - BA lightning strike - all flights to MAN cancelled! But this time I got home just afew minutes late (due to backed up BA aircraft with insufficient parking space blocking the taxiways). So how did I do it? Simple - I had learned my lesson from July 2003. I booked on BD592 !!! We customers have memories, you see, and we can use the benefit of experience to influence our future bookings. I am sure that the reservations staff at Princess Cruises were surprised when I rejected their proposed BA flights via LHR one year on. But was I wrong?

And next I must refer to Tartin Tom's comment, "You can always take a train or drive." Hmmm ... may I remind you about Christmas Eve 2006? (I could be a year adrift here, but I think it was '06). Yes, BA cancelled the MAN Shuttles again (yawn). Perhaps you recall the TV news coverage? You see, there is a problem with "you can always take the train". Several, actually. Walk-on fares Euston - Manchester are amongst the most expensive per mile in the world. And at Christmas that assumes there are any seats left anyway. And the trains knock off early on December 24th. And all the hire cars have already been snapped up (if you drive). So when that family of four (two young kids, pram, suitcases etc) arrive exhausted at LHR from Johannesburg to be told that their domestic connection is cancelled ("Because BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles" [Skipness]), perhaps Tartin and Skipness would like to be there. They could explain BA's point of view and discuss the customers' onward travel options with them! I would like to be there too - but I would stand some distance away!

You see, I too recognize that airlines can't run all the flights in adverse conditions, although conditions don't have to be very adverse in the case of some carriers! But the problem with BA is they have been known to cancel ALL the MAN Shuttles for a day. Would it not be preferable to spread the pain around a bit and operate, say two of the services to help the worst affected customers (those with no alternatives). Why not use a B744 or a B763 from another cancelled flight? They redeployed L1011's back in the days when BA still tried to get their customers home.

So yes, Skipness and Tartin. You continue to post BA's point of view. I do understand the airline decisions to which you refer. I do understand yield. I do understand scheduling complications (especially concerning LHR) in adverse conditions. But I also understand this. The customers pay the wages. The customers have a choice. The customer once let down will not easily be won back. Customer service in times of difficulty is paramount ("I suggest you go back home, Sir" doesn't cut it).

At MAN, customers have a choice of airlines. Many of them do NOT make a habit of canceling flights between MAN and their respective hubs on a regular basis. They have cultivated a reputation for reliability - customers appreciate that. Changing planes en-route is not a concern for many passengers, but being unable to reach their final destination is. BA must remember this. Times are getting tough. The easy-spend money from Canary Wharf and the City of London is drying up fast. If BA wants to fill it's aircraft, Cockneys and Inbound Markets alone may not be enough. Perhaps the shareholders may come to point out that offering a minimal service to the domestic market - and an unreliable one at that - means presenting 70% of the UK's catchment area to competitors (on a plate). It's your choice, BA, but it looks like you've already made it. Good luck.

SHED.

It'll all be so much EZY-er once MAN gets a dedicated, reliable carrier on the LGW run.........;)

Run BA, Run BA, Run Run Run :E

Ah - So Mr Tartin is a company bean counter with no axe to grind.

You have gone now - so you have no commercial interest to protect - I ask again -

If these planes were flying as full as they were - and yet you are adamant that they were loss makers, then justify your company leaving Manchester in long haul terms, by stating the loss that was being incurred.

The alternative is to concede my point that the company has decided to forego one profit making business to pursue another - and it is the regional clients that will suffer.

Me - I will do anything to avoid LHR, baggage losing, time wasting, changeovers - and management such as the one that Tartin aspires to is one that will attract the same customer rejection from much of the market

We do have a choice - and arrogant management style like that propounded by the sad "company men" on here will provoke it to their detriment - its just a shame that terms like customer service, or regional markets mean so little to those who can't see beyond the cluttered, unpleasant oversubscribed morass that is Heathrow

Shed on a Pole

Got it in One. When Executive Card holders who work in the industry and go from a lowly blue through Silver to Gold and have amassed in excess of a million BA miles but then give that up due to the reason you outline that's a sign of a problem.

The way that the first flights to go are always the Manchester Shuttles and the way you are just expected to make your own way to Euston or find a hotel is one thing but it gets worse.

My initial solution was always to change flights if the forecast a day or so ahead was for cold or windy weather but then it simply got worse and even poor weather was no indicator of performance. The final straw came late one Friday night battling over the pennines in a rented fiesta as I ended up in Leeds......Money talks..

Stonetbridge...stop teasing us...what do you know ? Spill the beans pls...

Shed on a Pole

One of the best postings I've seen on this subject for a long time. Your experiences closely mirror my own, which is probably why I have a lowly blue BA FF card and a platinum-for-life KLM one.
Manchester is not alone in suffering this way. I have spoken to others who travel from BFS/GLA/EDI/ABZ, and don't even get me started on the IOM.
Most businesses in the UK are run by beancounters these days. Service went out of the window years ago. Yes, BA can fill the front end of its flights from Canary Wharf, and the City (isn't that why Crossrail is being built?) and the meedja and 'celebrities' will always be happy to top up, so why bother with the rest of the UK?
Personally, I find the service on the foreign carriers superior to BA's anyway, and as many others have pointed out, LHR is just a hell-hole, whichever terminal you're using. Gatwick North is an overcrowded shopping mall.

Could LH do a 'Milan' at Manchester and look at putting A319s at the airport?

Why would Lufthansa build up Manchester as a UK Star Alliance hub when that's the intention for Terminal One at Heathrow?

I concur with you, the level of service on the Shuttles is pretty poor from MAN. I won't defend them for a minute as I know it's been a dreadful experience for many. As a Scot exiled in London, ( yes there is a MASSIVE need for Crossrail remember, Heathrow being a small part of it, the Central Line more so ) I am familiar with the problem I had two flights cancelled on me at an hours notice last year. One was a leisure jaunt to ZRH from LHR I re-booked and the other was a LHR Shuttle which these days has LGW and LCY options too. Ahh the grinding of teeth in the queue to see Aviance (!)

Now don't flame me as I am curious to know. Does anyone see a future for the BMI LHR service as I always saw it as a slot holder for a Lufthansa sale and the times I've been on it, it has had an Embraer's worth of passengers, often on an A319.

Shed on a Pole,

Your posting should be emblazoned in 6 foot high letters on the walls of Watersides inner chambers. Perhaps then they will start to dismantle some of those stupid and restrictive union agreements that prevent 747/777s that are otherwise idle being used in the circumstances described.

Conversely why would they only want one UK hub? I'm sure that the development of LHR will come first, but given the pressures on space and slots there, they may think a little more laterally than BA seem capable of doing.

For the spotters out there DLH MD11F in every Sat night for next few weeks due EMA runway mx. Scheduled in at 2230 out few hours later. Least i'll get some kip Sat night :\

Report on another site suggests that SkyEurope may be about to go tits up...that's two more routes lost then! Kosice and Bratislava.

Concur with the BA shuttle issues/avoid LHR at all costs.

Please don't forget Delta out of MAN when considering LH options. I was very suspicious of connecting on from Atlanta, but I have to say that I had a superb flight - excellent friendly, efficient service centered around a customer that did appear to matter. The changeover in Atlanta was straightforward (they've perfected it as the hub/spoke is how they operate) and the choice of connections basically opens up Americia, Carribean, Mex etc.

Thanks to these US carriers commitment to MAN, any Nortwest passanger, if prepared to changeover in a US hub, literally is connected anywhere state side.

I asked the Flight attendent about Atlanta - MAn loads and she said they were nearly always full.

Before I tried it, not an obvious choice but now I'd definitely use them again.

DH

Hamburg28K

You asked on 4th November about the work at the end of pier B which, you feel has been going on for ages.

According to the AIP this work was originally due to be completed by the end of December 2008, however I do seem to recall that this particular stage of the work started later than scheduled and I have just seen that the new finishing date is 23rd May. Looks like it's a long job.

Out of interest the work on the Terminal 3 apron extension now shows a completion date of 14th January.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards

Scottie Dog

Are FR and LS then to move to T3 as planned?

Havnt Skyeurope already dumped MAN from their timetable.

EC-ILS

No not as of today !

Ian

Also travelled to Atlanta twice this year, One connecting to onward destination and one terminating. No problems on either fairly fast baggage reclaim and car hire desk in the terminal. Just the seven dollars for a beer excessive. cheers Sparky

Ezy Man
 

EasyJet
 

Parky747 -

The simple answer to your question is that I don't know at what rate EasyJet intend to develop MAN (useful post, eh?). However, I can tell you that EZY consider themselves to have been presented with exciting short-term opportunities elsewhere which they are keen to exploit.

Amongst these opportunities two stand out. The first is ITALY. The near-death experience of Alitalia which now appears likely to survive in a much reduced form (probably merged with Air One) has left a big hole at EZY's existing Milan Malpensa base which the company hopes to exploit. Other carriers including Lufthansa (5 x A319) are diving in there too. Result: more EZY fleet commitment at MXP in the short term. Obviously Rome is affected too, though I believe that EZY favour Ciampino there rather than the Alitalia hub airport at Fiumicino, so perhaps the Rome opportunity is less attractive.

The second opportunity seen by EZY is at LONDON GATWICK. Recent events - notably the demise of XL and the transfer of several LGW Transatlantic schedules to LHR - have resulted in a surprise windfall of juicy LGW slots for EZY. This implies a short term move to increase the LGW stranglehold before competitors pitch in for those slots.

So where does this leave MAN? Slightly down the pecking order, I fear. Short term opportunities for expanding key bases are likely to be optimized. New capacity will go to those bases first. Whilst MAN is ultimately of interest to EZY, it is difficult to suggest that this airport will top the list of priorities when windfall opportunities have arisen at key established bases elsewhere. I guess my thesis is that MAN will be forced to wait its turn in an orderly queue! But if anyone out there is able to tell me with authority that I have got all this horribly wrong, then bring it on! I would be absolutely delighted to see MAN developed as a key EZY base ASAP. And I must say that MAN itself is fast becoming a serious opportunity for some enterprising carrier out there. It's a long-established top 20 European airport with a huge catchment area, and the availability of lucrative slots there for the taking hasn't been this good for years. Come and get 'em! Lock them away.

Any comments from EZY insiders?

Cheers, SHED.

"Are FR and LS then to move to T3 as planned?"

Im looking into that at the mo..........i think we need Jet there asap but its convincing the local heads, as they appear to like T1. However nearer to the Rwy usually swings it for Loco.

zfw

Am I being a bit forgetful in my old age, but aren't LS already in Terminal 3?

Parky 747, Why do you assume that Manchester would be a more profitable base for EZY than Liverpool? This is the same delusion as people who think BA and BMI can make more money on long-hauls out of Manchester than out of Heathrow.

For Summer 2009, Liverpool to Malaga with EZY (16 flights a week), Manchester to Malaga with EZY (7 flights a week), Liverpool to Alicante with EZY (15 flights a week), Manchester to Alicante with EZY (4 flights a week).

MAN's catchment is more than twice the size of LPL's, so therefore there is unquestionably better potential to attarct more passengers at MAN.

What is to the the West of Liverpool, and how many people live to the West of Liverpool ??? Answers....Sea & None....half of LPL's catchment area is water !

EZY would come to MAN now if it was as easy as that...although I'm pretty sure MAN will be the NW's largest base - enventually.

Counting the number of rotations to served destinations, apart from helping you learn to count to ten, means **** all matey !!!

Shed-on-a-Pole

Let me buy you a drink next time I'm back in Manchester - much appreciated your analysis of BA's approach to the UK Domestic Market and Shuttle Cancellations.

Quote:-MAN's catchment is more than twice the size of LPL's, so therefore there is unquestionably better potential to attarct more passengers at MAN.

What is to the the West of Liverpool, and how many people live to the West of Liverpool ??? Answers....Sea & None....half of LPL's catchment area is water !

West of LPL is North Wales or are they supposed to go to CWL!
LPL is considered to be in MAN catchement area so it follows MAN is in LPL's or there wouldn't be so many buses to MAN from LPL
East of MAN it is mainly sheep in the hills until you get to LBA area or is that counted as in MAN area as well !:}

Shed, you are absolutely spot on!! Throw into the mix though the very restrictive deal that EZY did with Peel holdings over operating from LPL and not having MAN and LPL competing for pax and it does leave MAN somewhat down the pecking order.

From what I have been told LPL is a very profitable base with some of the most profitable routes in the UK. Can't see how MAN would be more profitable initially. I think EZY's growth plans at MAN are hamstrung by the peel agreement and that fact that the airframes could be making more money at other bases in other countries!

I did say if it was easy for Easy to move - by this I was refering to their contract with Peel, hence the eventually bit - because sure as BA are based at LHR contracts expire !

As for catchment area population I dont have any figures, therefore arguing is pointless, but is Wales not South of LPL ! What I am trying to say is that there are not many folk living in the big blue wobbly thing to the immediate West and North West of LPL - hence restricting the catchment size.

It is a shame that BMI's excellent services have been pulled: I have used the transatlantic service three times over the last two years and always had a good experience.

BTW, North Wales is west of Liverpool and the population was 670,800 in 2003.

Ahhhh....I dont care where Wales is....that is not my point !

The Sea takes up 1/4 of LPLs georaphical catchment area.

It can be far too hard on here to make a simple point.

And sheep a quarter of MAN's:}

ooooohhhh the cheek of it ! And after mentioning North Wales....now I know this is a wind up :}:ok:

Ok its LPL's sea verses MAN's hills and sheep, while on the subject of Easyjets operations out of MAN, I used their Malta service earlier this year, and I tell you what, the T3 check-in area is not big enough, get 5 or 6 early morning EZY departures and there will be mayhem.

Mouser, totally agree, but T3 now and T3 "Loco Hub of the future" might be quite different though ?

It's a long-established top 20 European airport with a huge catchment area, and the availability of lucrative slots there for the taking hasn't been this good for years. Come and get 'em! Lock them away.

Well we have BMI Baby, all it needs it Lufty (or whoever) to expand it and make it full service, cos am sure MAN would get a couple of rows up front filled paying biz class fares?
I would much prefer to see a committed full service airlines come onboard rather than more chavtastic airlines aka EZY,FR,LS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

May I remind you of some positive aspects of services from MAN that the likes of LPL and LBA could never support?

Saudi Arabian to Jed/RUH
Libyan Arab to TIP
Qatar to DOH
Emirates to DXB
Etihad to AUH
Turkish to IST
Singapore to SIN
Air Blue to ISB
PIA to ISB/LHE/KHI/JFK (yes I know they operate to LBA!)
Cyprus Airways to LCA/PFO
Thomsonfly to TLV/RAK/SID
Olympic to ATH
Icelandair to KEF
Air Transat to YYZ
US Airways to PHL
Continental to EWR
Delta to ATL/JFK
Virgin to MCO/BGI/UVF
American to ORD
Lufthansa to MUC/FRA/DUS/HAM
Finnair to HEL
SAS to CPH/ARN/OSL
Swiss to BSL/ZRH
flyBE to FRA/DUS/CDG/HAJ/LRH/BRU/RNS/MXP
...to name but a few.

The common denominator here is that they are all, except two, foreign airlines.

MAplc's task over the next year or so of the recession is to hold on to these routes and carriers, even if that means we are down to once a week on some of them. Reducing landing fees might be an option?

MAN has an amazing portfolio of routes, so please be a bit more positive everyone!

I'm exasperated
 

Quality post Vuelo.

If I might add, it is becoming tiresome on here to read the continued vented venom against BA, and the quite ignorant opinion that MAN is becomming nothing more than a bucket and spade airport.

Others on here lament the loss of carriers and place the blame on airlines and MAN management then, unbelievably, one conceded they had not flown out of MAN themselves for years ! If you want routes to stay, GET ON A BLOODY AIRCRAFT AND SUPPORT YOUR AIRPORT, YOU MUPPETS !

I'd like to remind the people who sneer at charter carriers that at times when scheduled carriers have come and gone with fickle abandon, the likes of Thomson, First Choice, Thomas Cook etc and their predecessors have always remained loyal and totally dedicated to MAN, through 9/11, recession, winters of discontent, Falklands war and the latest economic downturn etc, no matter how far back in time you go. Whilst others closed down routes, they remained, through thick and thin.

To deride MAN for its bucket and spade origins is naive and does those carriers who have stood by MAN a huge disservice.