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egcc,
see my post [412] re scuttles |
I too do not get this facination with regards to BA at MAN. They are gone!! If BA going means that the other carriers are put in a better situation, then that has to be good. BA may have promised MAN things in the past, but this is today. Would I like to see US pull my option of BDL-PHL-MAN, or DL via JFK/ATL or CO via EWR, hell no, let BA go, it is not as if they are a growing carrier, or shown any commitment to MAN for a long time.
Those die hard fans of BA who can afford to loose luggage should still have the option of LHR, and all its wonderous pleasures!!! Now MAN needs to move on, ensure the success of the carriers it has, and forget history otherwise it may repeat itself!! |
Going Loco...I did warn you !
ETOPS...dont worry too much its just a pipe dream ! Chiglet...Any good with lottery numbers ? |
egcc - (I see what you did there.........)
Turn all the equipment off take off your clogs loosen your flat-cap turn your spotlight off and lay down on a bed in the dark for at least the rest of the evening! When you wake-up you WILL feel better. MM |
Does anyone know how the new platform at The Station is coming along? Are they still on track to complete it by December?
Also, when is the work on the taxiway next to Pier B going to be complete? It seems to be going on for ages! |
On track? Great pun!
If I'd been a sleeper I'd have missed it. Oh no, this post has gone off the rails. It's hit the buffers. Etc. :D |
October Pax
Talk about hitting the buffers and going off the rails or definitely not full
steam ahead, probably more "cuttings" to come and a signal that things are tough: - From another site quoting Manchester Airport "Pax - 1,825,157 down 9.80% Movements - 17,552 down 12.27% Freight - 11,980 tonnes down 26.62%" End of quote Pete |
I too do not get this facination with regards to BA at MAN. |
Pax - 1,825,157 down 9.80% Movements - 17,552 down 12.27% Freight - 11,980 tonnes down 26.62% We are all aware that times are very tough economically presently, but MAN seems to be being hit particularly hard at the moment. Dare I even mention that there could be more bad news tomorrow :sad: |
Those figures are terrible, but XL will have had an effect on them aswell.
Hopefully the new FR services will counteract them in the November figures. I am afraid I think the days of passenger growth at MAN are over. |
Manchester October Traffic
Full details on airport website here :-
http://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/m...ile/Oct+08.pdf Basically 200,000 less pax than Oct 07 (6,400 less per day) on 2,500 less flights (81 less per day) I am sure other airports will be poor also ! BHX5DME |
But recall also that FLYBE announced afew weeks ago that they intended to launch services on this route in Spring 2009 |
flybe MAN-AMS
I think you'll find that MAN-AMS on flybe is via Southampton. They don't appear to have an option for flights MAN-AMS for next summer.
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well, with bmi fcuking off to seal their doom at theifrow, what are the chances of UA comming in to regain their lost pax, or AA upgrading to accomodate more pax.
Maybe someone new? if the rumours of AA downgrading to a B757 are true, we will have roughly a 67% decrease in capacity next year, compared to summer 08 |
As someone from Fortress LHR / Waterside a couple of points. I was working at MAN for a few days last month and at various times of the day I was depressed at the lack of aircraft visible at any given time. The airport like LHR & LGW is far quieter than it was a couple of years ago.
As for BA pulling out all together it is oft spoken about here, the saving grace if that was the manner you viewed it, is that BA have nowhere else to go to at the present. If your flights could be subbed for longhaul 777 operated slots, we would leave you and the Scotish tomorrow but with the present loads and lack of fruitful destinations it will not happen. I saw on another thread yesterday that BA may return to SA next year, that would seem a positive move with revenue assured but not great. I do not know how BMI get on there but when we pulled out years ago there were lots of problems and issues which the Saudi's refuse / decline to address, I cannot imagine much has changed. |
If your flights could be subbed for longhaul 777 operated slots, we would leave you and the Scotish tomorrow what are the chances of UA comming in to regain their lost pax, |
As far as bmi leaving goes, let us not forget that bmi employs their own staff at MAN. There are a lot of good people there that will quickly find themselves out of a job really soon and that is just terrible. SUre, a handling agent (most likely Aviance) will pick up the BD contract, but with the loss of long haul (and I would assume their lounge in T3), there will not be a requirement for so many staff to TUPE over to whomever gets the contract. Further complicate that with the rumored sales of bot bmi Regional and bmiBaby, and that is even FURTHER job losses. I can see BD at MAN becoming nothing more than LHR shuttles.
It is a shame really because I think that BD could have really set up a good hub and spoke operation out of MAN had they chose to do so. Yes I know that yeilds are not the same at MAN as they are at Fortress Heathrow (or DEATHrow as I prefer to think of that dump), but MAN certainly has a catchment area large enough to support an airline the size of bmi. Further that with the general dislike of anything London by anyone north of the Watford Gap, and I honestly feel that bmi has really blown it here. So what happens to BD now? Just purely speculation here but I see BD Regional being gobbled up by flyBe and Baby either going to EasyJet or being swallowed up by the likes of Monarch or Thomas Cook. Chuck in the LH deal and interest by the great Bearded One, and I see those remaining aircraft being repainted very soon. |
Well here it is then.................From the BMI site
Changes to bmi operations at Manchester Following a review of long haul flying out of London Heathrow and Manchester, the following changes are being made: From January 2009, our Heathrow-Riyadh service becomes six times a week on an A330, with three services continuing onward to Jeddah and three services continuing onward to Dammam From Spring 2009, our Heathrow-Cairo and Heathrow-Amman services will be upgraded to A330 aircraft bringing our fully-flat bed Business Class and the biggest Premium Economy in the world (at 50” seat pitch) to our Heathrow hub On 14 January 2009, unfortunately our Manchester-Chicago service will end In April 2009, unfortunately our Manchester-Caribbean and Manchester-Las Vegas services will end The decision to withdraw long haul services from Manchester was a very tough one, since we have operated these routes since 2001. However, sadly, the routes have never performed to the revenue levels we hoped to achieve, which combined with 2008 fuel price increases means we still see little prospect of improvement. In sharp contrast, our Middle Eastern long haul routes from Heathrow are performing exceptionally well and have lots of potential for growth in customer numbers and revenues, especially in the new premium cabins. So time to take those 65 direct flights a week signs down now..and replace with about 45.................:{ |
Fuel price increases???......Oil currently at $68.53 a barrel...... the lowest its been for ages........................
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Press Reaction to BD Announcement
Airline pulls flights
5/11/2008 A MAJOR airline is pulling all its transatlantic flights from Manchester Airport and cutting around 140 jobs. Bmi, which is Britain's second biggest carrier, will stop its services to Chicago, Las Vegas and the Caribbean from January and April next year respectively. The news comes as a blow to the airport just a week after the final British Airways transatlantic flight to New York took off. In a letter to staff, bmi chief executive Nigel Turner said Manchester 'cannot deliver the levels of premium business that are available from the London market'. He said passengers flying from Manchester were 'buying purely on price' leading to disappointing revenues for the airline's 'best-in-class product'. The two Airbus A330 planes which are used on the routes will now operate on flights to Cairo and Amman from Heathrow. Mr Turner said: "To meet the clear demand for existing and future growth from London, we will transfer our two Manchester-based Airbus A330 wide-bodied aircraft to London, Heathrow. Consequently services from Manchester to Chicago will terminate on January 14, and services to Las Vegas, Barbados and Antigua will terminate after Easter 2009. Job cuts "We have been operating long haul services from Manchester since 2001, primarily as a result of our inability at that time to serve the USA from our main base at Heathrow. "However, long haul services from Manchester has never performed to the levels that we had hoped and we see little prospect of change or improvements in their performance." Up to 140 Manchester Airport-based jobs will be cut, mostly cabin crew, onboard chefs, supervisors and cabin service managers, as well as ground crew. Many will be offered positions at Heathrow. Staff are being informed today, with managers flying to its US bases to explain the decision. German airline Lufthansa took control of bmi (formerly British Midland) last week, adding to its 30 per cent stake by buying bmi chairman Sir Michael Bishop's 50 per cent stake in the airline for around £318 million. Bmi has 4,300 employees and last year had a turnover of £1,023m. The long haul services from Manchester began in 2001. They operate daily to Chicago, three times a week to Las Vegas, twice a week to Barbados and once a week to Antigua. A spokesman from Manchester Airports Group, said: "We are obviously disappointed with the news from bmi but as we are all aware, the aviation market is shrinking as a result of the global economic climate and Manchester Airport is not immune. Anticipated "We fully anticipated today's announcement. We do, however, need to put this in context. The destinations affected by bmi's decision are already served by other airlines at Manchester Airport so passengers wanting to travel to those are still able to do so with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados. "Manchester Airport still serves 52 long-haul destinations and 218 destinations worldwide. We've also had some good news this week with the arrival of a new airline, Air Sylhet, at Manchester Airport, operating services to Dubai and an additional four new destinations in India through Brussels Airlines." The final BA Manchester to New York flight took off on October 25. It was the firm's last remaining direct international service from an airport outside London. The only flights BA now offers from regional British airports are shuttle services to Heathrow and Gatwick. A BA spokesman said the 44-year-old service to JFK Airport had been axed due to falling passenger numbers as a result of increased competition from other transatlantic carriers. US airlines Delta and Continental still operate transatlantic services from Manchester. |
Good News Air Sylhet????......clutching at straws there methinks!.....:} India? what via bloody Brussels? Great eh.?!!....:ugh:
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Bring on the Ryanair long-haul with B777's.........
MM |
BA spokesman said the 44-year-old service to JFK Airport |
Skipness - You are right, it wasn't 44 consecutive years. There was no BA MAN-JFK between 1981 (VC10s and 707s) and 1985 when the service re-commenced with KT (Br. Airtours) Tristars as BA183/182. Anyway, doesn't it go back further? - I'm sure that BOAC started service from Manchester to Idlewild via Prestwick/Gander/Montreal or similar route in the 1950s with Stratocruisers and DC-7s. A bit before my time - but only just! Sabena had of course beaten them to it.
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with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados.
It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman... |
MAN's long-haul back to greatness
The loss of bmi long-haul from MAN is no surprise yet a body blow to the short-to-medium term aspirations of an airport which has always seen itself to be something more than just a large regional airport. The familiar words about low yields reveal the limitations as to what an airport company can do to help make services profitable if the catchment market won't pay the required fares.
Yet for my money, MAN remains in the longer term the best placed (in every sense) UK regional to grow long-haul services. Given the apparent economics of full-service long-haul, I find it difficult to understand the fragmentation we have seen in recent years across the UK regions:- Emirates from NCL, PIA from LBA, Air India from BHX, US Air from BHX next year. Of course there are local niche markets for these services, but in aviation-geography terms these airports are rather near to Heathrow and very near to MAN, which has excellent surface access. One would question the economics of spreading cost and resources across what is effectively the same catchment in order to gain perhaps a crumb or two of market-share. Such fragmentation has undermined MAN's role as the principal gateway airport outside London and in my opinion stifled the development of a critical mass of long-haul services here. LBA is not much nearer, and a damn site harder to get to from most of West Yorkshire, than is MAN. To have intercontinental services departing from cities just 40 miles apart to the same destinations is curious economics. Me wonders whether some local politics / diplomacy amongst the ex-pat communities is involved? MAN - 2 x 3000+m runways, 24H opening, CAT III, rail station, direct motorway link, 3 terminals, cargo centre, arguably the second city-region of the UK. Surely, only MAN makes sense if and when tentative toes are poked out from beyond the big smoke 15 west of London. |
Being a Brummie I would have to take issue with the claim that MAN serves the second city region, but that's for another forum!
The real surprise for me in all of this is that in recent years and months the local economy of Manchester and Salford has grown beyond recognition and grown with quality jobs not just standard call centres or retail led employment. Alongside this economic leap, which to be fair has seen Manchester gain a credible argument to make a claim for being the UKs second city it's airport has seen business related routes thin out. All that said MAN still has excellent connections around the world, most UK airports would kill for its route network! |
With the sad news of BD dropping the Manchester longhaul, will anyone step in and take over them. I can see VS boosting there BGI and maybe starting a ANU but would they have an aircraft to cover the route. Also would VS consider MAN-LAS or will they leave it to the TCX charter ?
Any thoughts ? |
goldeneye
No airline at this moment in time will take over the routes left by bmi IMHO. Its not the time to start or expand.
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Virgin just pulled UVF from March and the slot is going to another LGW-MCO rotation.
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"an additional four new destinations in India through Brussels Airlines." Oh come on, talk about clutching at straws!!! Surely, the Manchester Airport PR department cannot be that desperate. If so, Liverpool John Lennon Airport has just gained an additional 100 new destinations through KLM!!!
And by the way, I travelled from Manchester on Friday morning and the flight announcer was announcing the departure of the SN Brussels Airlines flight to Brussels, at least get the airline name right when you do announcements. |
OK take the yield argument at face value and move the most appropriate aircraft to the most appropriate station - BUT
I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades. Why would any business walk away from a profitable business when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates to maintain service and income. What is the fascination with Heathrow and why are regional SLF being asked to put up with another five hours or so on long haul journeys when spoke and hub is so patently unnecessary? That aspect really does make no sense |
TBirdFrank...sounds like you're in denial like most at MAN/BHX/Gla/Edi etc etc..there is only a limited amount of people who will pay the required yields to support longhaul ex regions and they just aren't enough. Load factor means nothing. The only thing that matters is revenue or, more accurately, contribution. People criticize BA for funnelling people through LHR and then praise KL/AF/LH/EK for funnelling through their hubs at AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/DXB when they are actually doing exactly the same thing as BA but not through London (God forbid). How dumb is that? The bottom line is that there is not enough point-to-point traffic to sustain longhaul ex-MAN but foreign carriers are actually better placed to sustain longhaul as they are feeding into THEIR hubs as well as servicing the limited point-to-point market. That's why they can make it work and BA can't. Rocket science it ain't. :ugh::ugh::ugh:
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TartinTon, what you say is blindingly obvious and I can't understand how people can't see that. There are so many posters on here who praise AA/CO/DL/EK etc... for carrying passengers via their hubs, yet crucify BA and now BD for doing the same thing.
I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades. Why would any business walk away from a profitable business If you honestly believe that BD (and BA) have dropped their longhaul routes from MAN inspite of them being profitable then you are just plain stupid and have got sucked into this whole UK airlines hate serving the UK regions bullsh*t. Yes it is a shame that BD and BA have pulled out, but to say that they would axe profitable routes just to spite the regions is deluded. Both companies have a responsibilty primarily to their shareholders to maximise profit, and have taken these decisions in the light of the current economic climate. Why should they settle for second best by operating longhaul from the regions when they can make the most return for their investment by flying from LHR? |
when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates And before anyone jumps in, the 757s are operated by Astraeus....on behalf of BMI. |
TartinTom and bmiexpat
It is you and not TBirdFrank who are being taken in here. If you wish to believe figures produced by corporate bean counters, configured in such a way as to produce the results that "management" want to support their actions, it shows your lack of experience and that you are not worldly wise in business practices, that have been doing the rounds for the last 25 years or more. All you are doing is believing "facts" that company management want you to, without question and as it's coming from such large corporate bodies, then it must be correct. All senior management are interested in is self glorification, their pay cheques and their bonuses. They have to be seen to be at the controls, even if they are not and their decisions, whilst looking good in the short term are a disaster waiting to happen in the longer term.....when they have moved on to pastures new and someone else comes in to clear up their mess, unfortunately again with a short term fix. |
Some of these services that have been pulled, have been over booked in the past. If that has not produced the right yield, then it is the airlines pricing structure that has been wrong.
As for LHR hubbing. Knowledgable Mancunians will know, whenever BA has ANY wiff of any minor hic-cup in their system the first things they do is CANCEL all their domestics. Thus leaving all their regional pax stranded. This simply does not happen with KLM. Luftie etc........and that is why many, esp me !! would not dream of risking the LHR Shuttles. |
IB4138...what colour is the sky on your planet exactly?
You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management. I bow to your superior grasp of the "facts" Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management. Do you REALLY think that airlines don't want to operate routes that make a profit? Are you REALLY that stupid??? Mr A Tis...getting the wrong yield CAN be a function of the wrong pricing structure but more often it's just a case of the market not being prepared to pay (as is the case with Manchester). Airlines will try and get loads on flights in the short term and take a loss with a view to building a market. That's called investment. If the market fails to respond to economically viable prices after having built and invested in a market then of course the airline will cut its losses and re-invest elsewhere. As for cancelling domestic flights at times of disruption, that actually makes perfect sense. You can always get a train or drive. I suspect that KLM, LH etc also do exactly the same thing. They try not to cancel flights that have to go over water as it's a long way to swim..... |
For the ten billionth time, BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles as Heathrow is maxed out in normal operations and there is no leeway when the weather gets involved. Hence when fog / winds hit you have options :
A) Land the inbound Hong Kong that has been holding at Lambourne for 45 mins B ) Divert the above flight with 350+ pax You choose to land the above but to free a slot you need to consolidate as many of the domestic shuttles together to free up space in the sequence as ATC are under pressure Result? 350 long haul passengers get into the right airport and your domestic passengers get home late. Or there's option 2 which is try and run the normal schedule which would see the long haul fleet and their crews scattered to the regions and tomorrows program damaged even more as the crews that were down to operate them are in Glasgow, which oddly enough is where you wanted to be! Result? You have 350+ long haul passenegers not going anywherethe next day. Now multiply that by the number of long haul inbounds taking into account domestic outbounds and passengers carried. NOW can we have a third runway? The same capacity constraint is NOT applicable at CDG / FRA / AMS. They have what is known as "room to breath". |
MANflyer...i'm struggling to see where the spokesperson got the comment wrong??
"with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados." It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman... Granted it's not the best sentence ever but it covers the fact that there is still a direct route to BGI from where you can fly on to ANU......not to mention 1 stop connections via the USA..... |
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