I think the saying was intended more as a curse "May you live in Interesting Times...." rather than a hope of peace and quiet.

I don't think the two are directly comparable and I really wouldn't look to the computers as a source of blame. At the end of the day, they are only a tool in the hands of the Design Engineers and Drafters. I would suspect that the real root cause of both Airbus and Boeing problems is down to holes in the design process. I would also suspect that these holes are attributable to the length of the product design and life cycle. As the life cycle has stretched out for existing designs, there is now a severe lack of personnel in each organisation who have been involved in the development of a brand new design.

It is inevitable that during design of a new product that details are overlooked and snags occur as a result. However, if you have been involved in a similar development previously, you know what to look out for & what was missed the last time & either correct these omissions or allow for them to be worked on at a later time. The problem occurs when you have a long time between product developments the guys who come up through the organisation during the design process tend to either be near retirement age, have moved on or into management positions before the next development comes up, so you lose their experience. The guys who have moved on are no longer available to you, The guys in management have largely lost their design skills and have forgotten the details and minutiaie of the process and the few left who are nearing retirement are usually not considered for the new project as they won't be available for the duration of the work. There's also very few companies who have a formalised method of passing on or making available to the next project any lessons learned from the previous work.

What makes matters worse at the present time (& probably for the next decade or so) is that there was a great reduction in the numbers of engineering graduates in the late 80's and 90's due to a focus on Accountancy & other service sector careers (overhead generating jobs) coupled with an up tunr in their pay rates whilst Engineering rates took a nose dive & are still playing catch-up. As a result, there are relatively few engineers of my own age who have amassed a significant level of experience, but are still intimitely involved in the design process and who are involved in educating the next generation of practicing Engineers.

There are a whole load of graduates coming through, but they lack experience and in some cases the degree courses that award a (5 year) Masters level now, lack some of the course content that was in my basic (3 year) Batchelors degree, never mind the Honours part of the course.

Net result:
Loads of fresh new computer drivers who lack the experience to know if & when they are getting bad results from their PC or if they are setting things up incorrectly.
Too few guys left in charge with hands on knowledge to effectively manage & nurture the new intake.
Much of the best of the experienced personnel is walking out the door for higher paid jobs in management using none of their engineering expertise.
The remaining experienced are largely being passed over when it comes to setting up the project in the first instance so there is a bigger chance of things being missed.

One consolation and potential advantage that Airbus has however, is that they have an overlap between the A380 development and the development work for the A400 Military and also the A350 Civilain Projects. They just need to find a way to take experiences & personnel from the A380 project and feed them into these other two projects. However, this is not an approach which is conducive to initial cost reduction, but does contribute to significant cost savings towards the end of development, certification & through life. As a result up front cosst rise which the accountants oppose as it makes the balance sheet costs for personnel look slightly expensive over one or two years (& lower cost over the remainder of the project) rather than sort of OK/passable over ten to fifteen years.

I will now put my soapbox away until next year, but as Interpreter says, I'd really like to know the Hull number for the parts that kicked off this discussion.

I hate to say I told you so, especially when it's something which is dumping from a great height on so many people, but the official explanation from Network Rail (& the Government) for today's chaos in the rail system due to repair & upgrades over running by 300% [and maybe more by the time they eventually finish] is a lack of qualified and experienced engineering personnel to carry out the work. You'd have thought that before ripping up one of the major transport arteries for the country, they'd have made sure that they had everything & everyone in place to do the job in the toime that they'd allowed themselves. Failing that, you'd hope that they would have told the rail companies that they weren't going to finish in time a bit quicker than just 4 hours before services were due to re-start.:\

If this performance keeps up and spreads throughout the UK , we'll be so deep in the brown stuff we'll all need snorkels.:*

BA Shares
 

Hope this doesn't count as advertising but I laughed out loud at this report

http://iball.iii.co.uk/2008/04/28/br...ways-plc-bayl/



speds

BA funny
 

Were ou laughing with them or at them? Shameful bit of advertising, wonder what they paid for that? I'll have to grab a look at the advertising spend this year compared to last, reckon we'll see a massive increase

The presenter is obviously brain dead. That's why she is doing the job she is doing, and Willie is doing the job he is doing.

Where are her credentials ? What qualifies her to discuss BA or any other company ? :ugh:

She'd be better suited selling anti wrinkle creams in TV commericals :ok:

More to the point, where did this woman get her mits on a BA uniform?

Someone should tell BA Security....

British Airways will ground part of its fleet over rising fuel cost
 

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3953811.ece

British Airways plans to ground part of its fleet from October to cut costs and stem potential losses caused by the crippling price of fuel.
Confirmation of the move, from chief executive Willie Walsh, comes as analysts warn BA may only break even or worse for the next two years, despite having reported one of its best year’s trading last week.
The sudden reversal has been caused by rapidly rising fuel prices – jet fuel went through the $1,300-a-tonne mark last week – and sluggish demand.
BA has already selectively slashed fares across the Atlantic, offering returns to New York for £249, a base fare of £30 once taxes and fuel surcharges are stripped out. “It is a bloodbath,” said one industry executive.
Scheduled airlines rarely ground aircraft, preferring to keep their expensive fleets in the air, although Ryanair has kept planes on the ground during slack periods. Walsh said: “You should certainly expect us to do that this winter.”

The airline would park its oldest, least fuel-efficient aircraft. Walsh said this would be likely to include its older Boeing 747s, 767s and 737s.
BA last week reported strong annual results for 2007-8, hitting its long-held goal of a 10% profit margin, paying staff £35m in bonuses and the first dividend in seven years.
Walsh did not take his £700,000 bonus, saying it was not appropriate in the wake of the chaotic opening of Heathrow’s terminal 5.
The fall-out from the T5 debacle will dent BA’s figures this year. The company has guided analysts to expect a hit of a further £40m-£50m on top of the £18m in the last financial year.
Half of the hit would be in extra costs, half in lost revenue. Walsh told analysts that T5 was working smoothly, although the moves of additional flights to the terminal would still be later than first planned.
Fuel will be the biggest headache for BA. If oil continues at $120 a barrel, BA’s profits could be wiped out this year. Chris Avery, analyst at JP Morgan, said that if oil remained above $110 a barrel, “investors need to be very conscious that BA could make a loss for one or both of the next two years”.
BA is hoping tough times will help it take the lead in industry consolidation. Walsh said that he had resumed negotiations with American Airlines and Continental Airlines of the US with the aim of creating a transatlantic alliance.
Previous attempts have been rebuffed by American regulators, but Walsh said he was hopeful the difficult trading environment would clear the way for a deal. Pilots begin a legal challenge to BA’s plans to start an “airline within an airline” tomorrow. The company wants to start flights between Paris and New York next month with a new subsidiary called Open Skies.
The British Airline Pilots Association does not oppose the services, but is against the planned use of flight crews from outside the main BA pilot group.
Pilots voted in favour of striking over the issue earlier this year, but they have put the action on hold pending this week’s High Court challenge.

Difficult times ahead for all of us involved in aviation , not sure how BA's Open Skies offshoot stacks up now. Also heard rumour that the 318's from LCY may now be pushed back a couple of years.

Not too sure about these analysts though guessing the future oil prices, i've seen a few in the press saying we should expect $150 by the year end and a few more saying we should expect it to drop back to $100 by the year end.

Fingers crossed its the latter :(

At this rate it will be $150 by the end of next month!

Why not keep all the aircraft on the ground, that would save money !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any airline that does not operate fuel efficient aircraft should :{.

The 318 LCY/SNN/NYC was/is a smoke screen for the open skys BALPA issues.

Oil will be between $150 and $210 for the next few years.

2009 and 2010 will be hard years, airlines will get all the normal hits.

Best enjoy the rest of 2008, well upto about Sep, then the show will start.

Well
 

It may be worse than one may think. When it's cheaper to not do something than to do it, those who do, won't. What about Leases, slots, leave, contracts, performance bonds and penalties? SharePrice? CEO perks? Where to park, maintain? She/it.

Interesting, saw a planning sheet showing start at end of Mar 2009, and then ob Friday saw that delivery dates are Jul 2009. So something doesn't add up.

C46R,

What a stupid comment.

$200 oil is still very cheap. 200/160= $1,25 per liter of oil.

1 barrel of oil produces as much energy as 12 workers during 1 year, and at $200 it is still cheaper than Coca Cola.

The problem is that we are used to cheap energy, and this cheap energy is essential especially for aviation. But with production stagnant at approx 85mb/day, and demand rising despite record prices, there might be some dark clouds ahead. And not just for 2009 and 2010.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XNjZnRA2m68&feature=related

2009/2010 will be problem times.

2010 plus will depend on Tech and PC.

You've hit on the solution!
Burn workers!

Or Coke?

Saw a table of comparison the other day of various liquids in common and everyday use. Turns out that just about the cheapest was fuel, both petrol and kerosene and the most expensive was printing ink!

Do you have a link for that liquid comparison. Sounds interesting.

This sounds like one of the first sensible decisions from BA in a long time. It is also brave. To state in advance that they will cut back services - rather than have to cut them at short notice, is exactly what pax (and shareholders) need. Then they can adjust schedules and make alternative arrangements for those that have already booked. Others will follow but not might give so much notice as they try to tough it out.

Manchester - JFK
 

The unofficial reason for pulling the MAN-JFK was due to lack of aircraft.

There are now plenty about. How about going 10x daily using the grounded aircraft?:ugh:

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

It is at times like these , that all aviators should reflect on the viability of their current employer to weather the approaching recession .
In 92 a fair number of us thought we were safe in Dan Air because Air Europe had left the scene , only to be undone by skullduggery masquerading as 'downturn' .
Luckily , I spent the next few years with a National Airline in a hot place whose whispered motto was ' Recession , what recession ?'
So , any of you waverers on the question of 'To go to the sandpit or not to go ' should re-examine their options and how green the grass really is.

Keep safe .

I never thought that i would see BA flying "The Hajj", but this year could be different......

Mutt

Best I can do for now pahtty130 though it wasn't the one I was referring to:

http://cockeyed.com/science/gallon/liquid.html

Coming home to roost
 

Well well well, City unimpressed with BA's 'possible merger' rumour that came to nothing, customers unimpressed with BA's customer service and failure to actually provide what was bargained for, they are deserting in droves. In a downturn its these loyal customers you will rely on. They have all deserted and BA face with incrediably low yields are consolidating their schedule. Hence the grounding of the fleet. BA nad their incompetant managers only have themselves to blame.

"BA - Hajj" - why not? They may have a few (Open Skies) B757's available soon.:eek:

BA-HAJ,
Now that would be really interesting.
Lets see how they handle the 10- 20 ton over max gross weight takeoffs, ,barely clearing the lights after rotate, passengers using the seats for toilets, fighting in the cabin, overheads overspilling with zam zam water etc.
Flight Duty days in excess of 30 hours.
Come on BA show us how its done properly!
:D

What makes you think BA would know anything about flying the kind of sh*tkicking Hajj operation you fly Earl? The frightening thing is you seem proud of it!:eek:

Thats just it BA would probably not know what they were getting into and would have problems with this type of operation.

I don't think BA will be doing Hajj any time soon, although your concern (which I think it is) is appreciated. It would cost far too much to refit the aircraft with 400+ economy seats, not to mention that they'd never get the cabin crew to do it (plenty have in the past and know exactly what it entails). There's also the fact we don't go anywhere near Saudi due to the massive bullseye painted on the side of the aircraft. *

*Only visible with an Islamoscope

... and funny enough, they still look for pilot applications (according to Flight International adds). I wonder how many of those will see a flight deck from the inside after their ground school.

Dani

BA, as British Airtours, did many Haj charters.

Some people think think they are the first and only to do anything unfortunately. Shame they are not up in their historical facts.:}

Earl -if you think it only happens on a Hajj flight -you have had a sheltered career!

Wasnt that BEA? Couldnt see BOAC getting involved with the Haj :8

My guess is LGW takes the hit, not LHR. Start of the end for LGW and a start of EU bases at the main hub airports once bad times are over

Oil panic
 

I seem to remember similar forecasts of a dire future back in the 1980's with extrapolations and "guesstimates" being hurled around like confetti which gathered a momentum of their own. The fact is that oil reserves are plentiful but we have to decide how we wish to use them.

The oil sands and oil shales of North America and Canada have 100's of years capacity at current usage rates. It used to be forecast that at $25 dollars a barrel it was economical to extract it. Obviously that has risen and I believe it was based on using oil to produce steam to make the oils flow. However, I also understand that they are seroisly considering placing a nuclear power station within or close to the deposits for non-oil energy to create the steam. Man will find a way believe you me. Also we are beginning to realise that oil is still the best TRANSPORTABLE energy source and that to use it in any fixed ground based installation is absurd.

There will be changes but at $150 per barrel you can bet your life that the oil industry scientists are motivated to find further suppies. The danger of course is if the price should suddenly drop - but then we are back to square one.

not good for us wannabes :ouch:

Received this email the other day. Don't know how long it's been doing the rounds but on face value it makes sense:

See what you think and pass it on if you agree with it

We are hitting £112.9 a litre in some areas now, soon we will be faced with paying £1.20 a litre. Philip Hollsworth offered this good idea:

Please read it and join in!

Now that the oil companies and the OPEC nations have conditioned us to think that the cost of a litre is CHEAP, we need to take aggressive action to teach them that BUYERS control the market place
not sellers. With the price of petrol going up more each day, we consumers need to take action. The only way we are going to see the price of petrol come down is if we hit someone in the pocket by not
purchasing their Petrol! And we can do that WITHOUT hurting ourselves. Here's the idea:

For the rest of this year DON'T purchase ANY petrol from the two biggest oil companies (which now are one), ESSO and BP.


If they are not selling any petrol, they will be inclined to reduce their prices. If they reduce their prices, the other companies will have to follow suit. But to have an impact we need to reach literally millions of Esso and BP petrol buyers. It's really simple to do!!

Now, don't wimp out at this point... keep reading and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!

I am sending this note to a lot of people. If each of you send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and those 300 send it to at least ten more (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the time the
message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have reached over THREE MILLION consumers! If those three million get excited and
pass this on to ten friends each, then 30 million people will have been contacted! If it goes one level further, you guessed it... ..

THREE HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE!!!

Again, all You have to do is send this to 10 people. That's all.(and not buy at ESSO/BP) How long would all that take? If each of us sends this email out to ten more people within one day of receipt,
all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next 8days!!! Acting together we can make a difference . If this makes
sense to you, please pass this message on.

PLEASE HOLD OUT UNTIL THEY LOWER THEIR PRICES TO THE 69p a LITRE RANGE

It's easy to make this happen. Just forward this email, and buy your petrol at Shell, Asda,Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons Jet etc. i.e. boycott BP and Esso:D

I totally agree with the above 'e-mail'

'Ballocks' to BP & Esso @ their 2 million an hour profits.:=

Me Thinks = Protest time = While we still have Airliners to fly??:D

If this situation is not addressed very soon, Then It will be 'Curtains'
For more companies??:sad:

So Far we have lost = ATA, Hawaiin, Eos, Euromanx, And others.:*:sad:

If the Airport's themselves had any 'nouse' about them, they would talk to Esso & BP or show them the door.:E:D:hmm:

The Airport's need to support the Airlines at this difficult time.

It could yet all end in tears??:(