Bottom line is quite simple.
Despite the above endless run of security experts, none of whom pointed out all the supposed security defects prior to the recent event. With 20 odd years of frequenting / working on airfields the real bottom line for all you security experts out there is this.

Last weeks dip stick on a motor bike trip could have been pulled of on any number of civilian, and not a few, military airfields out there!

They didnt............they did BHX:eek:

Hnh

Firstly, I have no opinion as to the suitability or practicality of perimeter fencing that is placed around BHX. Cast your mind back to the "terror incident" at Glasgow. Following that escapade by determined miscreants, a control measure was put in place at most airports in the UK to minimise the potential of a re-occurence. How effective is thiscontrol measure?

At Birmingham, shiny new posts have now been placed at the set down roads to prevent a vehicle from embedding itself into the main concourse areas. If determined individuals wish to pack, say a motorcycle fitted with side paniers, with C4 or other, they could easily ride through the gaps in these posts to penetrate the front doors. The next control measure after such an event would no doubt to place a concrete or other substantial structure to prevent this happening again. Once this has been erected, other deranged persons could possibly fill suitcases with explosives and then enter the building, as pax would, and then detonate. The point I'm making (finally) is to say what N'th degree do we go here??? If people are twisted enough to want to carry out such acts they will do their homework.

Fortunately, 99.99 recurring % of people don't want to break into an airport and do such things. The other % will succeed in someway, shape or form. No fence, security company, SOP's, technology is 100% secure is it?

However, that doesn't stop us from trying to make it 100%!!!

......................

Grundyhead, some good points and I agree. However the issue is does BHX airport agree? Some 2 years after the Glasgow attack, BHX installed some anti vehicle concrete blocks outside the entrance to the control tower
on the cargo side of the airfield.....TWO YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now what does that say about BHX security?:confused:

Hnh

It says that they probably don't NEED it but someone came along and asked what had been done, to which the answer was nothing. Hence something was done. Anything, so that no one is in a position to say they didn't act and they have something to point to in beefing up physical security. I'm not criticising this approach, as it is understandable and giving a lot of people sleepless nights.

However as to whether much of it is a good investment, needed or just hype, we shall see. To those who say you can never be too secure I remind you that living in free society there is always an element of risk. Go too far the other way and every flight becomes an experience like El Al, and I hope that's not something we are advocating.

The Islamist terrorist threat will fade over time, and whereas we might not go back to the good old days as it were, the paranoia and fear will recede, as well talk of electrified fences and ten foot ditches, more likely to kill an employee than an intruder.

If some one crosses a fence, designed to keep them out, then what happens to them is fair game in my book, electric fences do not descriminate between people with serious criminal intent or boys with high spirits (or too much spirit in them) the police ASU is a high value target for the under world and it has happened before at Liverpool if i remember?

The entire perimiter at BFS is lighted and monitored for obvious reasons as should all airports (well ok not worth it at Durham Teess Valley) but you get my drifit, the police ASU should be in a fence within a fence and cross the second one and expect a police marksmen to drop you

Wow! When did criminal damage become a capital offence? I woudln't trust a Police marksman to make me a cup of coffee with arsing it up.

Defence lawyer by any chance Skippy?

No My Lord, as he was cutting through both fences with a (insert weapon of choice here) in his hand, under the cover of darkness, my client didn't see the clearly visible signs saying;

Warning
No Trespassing
Beyond this point Deadly Force is Authorised

As he cannot read.

I'm not a defence laywer, and a dead suspect isn't going to tell you anything you will need to know......

Does the Police Support Unit really do the work of a HeliMed chopper in the Midlands area? They have dedicated helicopters elsewhere..

Cheers !

So has anyone else got any ideas on the gaps in security they can post on here to inform tommy terrorist?? Or mr nutter? :mad::ugh:

Just to clear it up...Is that criminal damage as in the Glasgow Airport incident? :ugh:

A suspect with a device to destroy property, maim or kill and has penetrated a restricted area... isn't a suspect for long!

In the case of life/death, Yes. 24/7 and not just the Midlands.

Maybe we should implement the airfield security in place at ISB & PEW Airports, Gun Turrets at certain intervals along the perimeter.

That would make them thinks twice before thinking up stupid thoughts. :=

Or even BHX !

Am I the only one actually getting uncomfortable with where this is all going?

I'm not as much uncomfortable about where this is going as where it has already gone. Clearly recent posters are working at the airport - we may not all always agree on the details but generally will hear each other out and take on board differing views with respect. Yes the odd loon who doesn't work here comes in and winds people up but I'm sorry to see and read a deterioration in respect. I also think discussing the finer details of where we see risk in security and safety as a discussion has its place for sure but not in a public forum. I mean no personal criticism of anyone, just an observation.`i like healthy debate with respect...can we go back there?

PhilBHX and Skipness,

Hear Hear!! Sense at last. Where are the Mods when you need them?? :ugh::ugh:

By the way in 30+ posts on this topic, has anyone questioned the absurdity of protecting a multi million pound facility, often with thousands of civilians on site at any one time, with a simple, easy to cut through fence. Even without the actual Security Patrols that take place aswell at BHX, my parents back garden is better protected in terms of fencing!

Some of you are simply wasting your breath. There´s no such thing as 100% security and there never will be. It comes down to risk v unneccesary cost. Why spend hundreds and thousands when it still won´t guarantee total security? Earlier, I jokingly suggested a thick concrete wall around the entire airport. The truth is that even that wouldn´t be that effective. In fact, it would probably add to the risk factor rather than reduce it.

How effective are the Security Patrols ?
 

I don't know, or even want to know, how often the Security team patrol the airfield perimeter, but I have noticed that their 4 wheel drive vehicles do not seem to be equipped with "Alley" lights, like those on the roof bars of Police vehicles.

What do the Security staff actually DO during this patrol ?

Is there a physical and close up check and examination of the perimeter fence ?

It has been clearly demonstrated here how easy it is to breach the fence, but if the Security patrol just drives on by without noticing, then what's the point of the patrol ?

During the perimeter patrol, at night, I assume that the driver will be looking ahead to see where they are driving from the light of their headlamps.
Are the perimeter patrols carried out by TWO Security Guards in one vehicle, so that the passenger can concentrate on examining the fence and beyond - looking for anything suspicous, and if so do they have any sort of hand held lamp to help see into the dark ?

If not, then what does the "patrol" hope to achieve - Any bad guys will see them coming a long way off because of the compulsory orange roof beacon, so there will be a deterrent effect of only a few seconds, while they just duck into a bush and wait for them to pass.

Maybe, just maybe - pure conjecture - but if the hole in the fence had been cut in advance, prior to the motorbike arriving, and left loosely in place until they decided the time was right ( orange beacon disappearing across the other side of the field ), then it "could" have been spotted in advance by Secuurity, and appropriate action taken.

As always, lots of "if only's" and hind sight etc, but are BIA Management doing anything in terms of how these existing security patrols are conducted, with a view to thwarting any further attempts at gaining entry to the site ?

For them ( BIA ) to respond seems to be a bit of a cop out, and sends the wrong message out.

Guidelines eh ? Are they conducting any sort of Security review ?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d1.../Coconutty.jpg

PLC 41 might like
Arrange another visit by AF One.......and the above will be a reality for the duration ;)

Ooh Coconutty, you are asking for the moon on a stick:=

You seriously believe the head of BHX security is going to A) read this
and B) actually answer it?

No mate...too many 110ml tunbes of toothpaste and face cream to confiscate than worry about another aircraft getting torched:oh:

PhilBHX is that back into the healthy debate for you or is it still a taboo subject?

Hnh

well call100 who it would appear spends more time on here or than checking the fence......

Two things appear correct...

1 yes its not beyond the chance that at some point some one will and has breached the fence to cause damage...the point is that you will be paying through the nose for "a secure airport with regular patrols and high tech security measures"

2 its really not the place to discuss security arrangements. Where do you lot think they get their ideas from....
:\

I don't work on Security.....Who are you to judge who spends time where?
I doubt 'they' get there ideas from here! A big mistake thinking 'they' are stupid, whoever 'they' are!
Your first point does not exactly make sense...Sorry..

you bit :=

point is its expensive to pay for a service that is obviously not up to the job....as a result you may find they will move else where (where its cheaper and you get the same service. i e. Nothing. Sorry you get a great fire response. ) in the end you will lose out.. cause unless your a pikey. you pay taxes :D

'You bit'???? mmm very grown up...
Going round in circles a bit now........We'll wait and see....Patience...:rolleyes:

Back in November last year we had the strange case of the Birmingham police helicopter and the UFO.
The pilot and two police observers reported the UFO had flown around their aircraft showing two continuous blue/green lights and could have been 'sinister' or someone messing about.
Hmm, perhaps zapping that UFO with their tasers wasn't such a good idea after all. ....... :E

Alvechurch;

Plagiarism doesn't expire after a week! ;)
Another attack on a Police Helicopter

Besides, the incident happened on 2 May 2008 not last November.

May International Route Analysis
 

From the CAA (pax figures), acarsd & my records (number of rotations
and aircraft type), 2008 in brackets. Estimates used in some instances.

BRUSSELS/9141(12011)/46 PAX 50%ish
BILLUND/2984(NIL)/115 PAX/61%
COPENHAGEN/6189(7556)74 PAX 75-80%
BERGERAC/991(1112)/45 PAX/58%
BIARRITZ/2936(0)/113 PAX/60%
BREST/319(944)/53 PAX/68%
LA ROCHELLE/481(1192)/48 PAX/62%
LYON/2098(2616)/27 PAX/56%
MARSEILLE/3034(3318)/108 PAX/57%
NICE/3623(6053)/107/76%
PARIS/24970(28765)/42/58%
PERPIGNAN/1845(NIL)/102 PAX/54%
POITIERS/3125(NIL)/120 PAX/62%
TOULOUSE/215(NIL)/54 PAX/69%
DUSSELDORF/11588(13318)/33/53%
FRANKFURT/20132(20695)/58/60%
HAHN/3642(0)/101 PAX/54%
HAMBURG/1945(2794)/37/48%
HANOVER/3796(3454)/49 PAX/62%
MUNICH/7990(10446)/64 PAX/83%
WEEZE/4380(NIL)/122 PAx/64%
STUTTGART/2439(3682)/29 PAX/37%
CORK/5486(10346)/152 PAX/88%
DUBLIN/44552(52513)/130 PAX/71%
KNOCK/4453(6243)/86 PAX/61%
SHANNON/8068(6138)/130/69%
WATERFORD/1785(1814)/34 PAX/52%
BOLOGNA/2276(NIL)/126 PAX/67%
MILAN MXP/3027(3527)49 PAX/44%
OLBIA/1854(NIL)/103 PAX/54%
PISA/2158(2980)/120 PAX/63%
TRAPANI/2030(NIL)/113 PAX/60%
TRIESTE/1642(NIL)/91 PAX/48%
AMSTERDAM/33997(44669)/88 PAX/65%
FARO/13564(13637)/154 PAX/81%
OPORTO/2505(NIL)/139 PAX/74%
ALICANTE/24466(17793)/136 PAX/79%
ALMERIA/4303(4913)/166 PAX/77%
BARCELONA/4506(5856)/113 PAX/80%
GIRONA/3828(4182)/147 PAX/78%
IBIZA/2152(1460)/143 PAX/67%
MAHON/7099(6647)/154 PAX/72%
MALAGA/28206(21017)/148 PAX/79%
MURCIA/13852(15289)/151 PAX/78%
PALMA/21121/19080)/151 PAX/80%
REUS/5768(NIL)/131 PAX/69%
ARRECIFE/2868(1982)/179 PAX/84%
TENERIFE/8079(6357)/183 PAX/86%
GOTHENBERG/1165(1965)/22 PAX/61%
STOCKHOLM NYO/3602(NIL)/139 PAX/73%
OSLO TORP/2237(NIL)/86 PAX/46%
ZURICH/10412(11077)62 PAX/62%
ISTANBUL/3036(NIL)/69 PAX/40-45%
PRAGUE/8874(6923)/106 PAX/66%
KUNAUS/2552(NIL)/142 PAX/75%
BZDGOSZCZ/3042(NIL)169 PAX/89%
GDANSK/2904(NIL)/161 PAX/85%
KATOWICE/5125(NIL)/142 PAX/75%
KRAKOW/5122(NIL)/142 PAX/75%
RZESNOW/2861(NIL)/159 PAX/84%
BRATISLAVA/3629(3489)/140 PAX/74%
DUBAI/31158(28470)/251 PAX/70%
ASHKHABAD/3061(4337)/
AMRITSAR/1036(NIL)/JOINT with ASB would be 114 PAX 60%
ISLAMABAD/8505/7639)/236 PAX/60% ish
NEWARK/8254(9406)/142 PAX/81% 58 sectors
PHILLIDELPHIA/3449(NIL)/123 PAX/71%.

Very good spanish & Polish figures and longhal fair for May.

Some horrors with AMS down 10K, Torp Perpignan & Trieste
still low and Turkish nowhere near a 100 per flight.

flybe also cut STR & MXP but still woeful load factors

Pete

Thanks OP
 

I know that profit matters but your stats are welcome - thanks

CAT III

Amateur analysis of pax figures are pointless unless you are aware of yields/break even points for the various routes and airlines. You're also inconsistent when commenting - flipping between pax numbers and load factors as the mood takes you.

Pax figures are only good for bragging rights between airlines and airports - that's all. Any idiot (MOL?) can sell £5 notes for £1 and say 'look at the number of customers I'm getting'.

How about taking freight into consideration? Thats EK,PK,BE,TK,T5,LX,CO - even ZB and TOM aren't above selling a bit of hold space. There's probably a few more but I'm not at work at the moment so I cannot check.

Maybe if you asked the airlines nicely they'd tell you.......




S78

Bit harsh there S78, Had a bad night;)

I think you're bang our of order there S78, OltonPete consistently does some excellent analysis each month which I would suggest takes a fair amount of time. If you don't like his analysis don't read it but really don't come on here attempting to sound clever and rubbish the work and efforts that are appreciated by many.

Shannon / Cork
 

With Ryanair reducing BHX - SNN for the winter, the only winner will be Aer Lingus' ORK - BHX...
Recently there has been a huge reduction in services between Shannon/Cork and Birmingham/EastMidlands.

Ryanair reductions
 

With FR threatening to close their SNN base and reduce services from DUB and some UK bases, and move them to Italy, Belguim and Greece, I wonder how this will affect FR's expansion plans at BHX, they are supposed to be basing a further 2 a/c there in October.

:confused:

If you post on a forum......
 

......then people will read and comment on your work.


I commented on Pete's and a couple of people have commented on mine - that's how a forum works.


Just because someone puts a lot of time and effort into something doesn't mean it's above examination. Let's take one specific - AMS: Down by 10K, but how many of the 33997 who did travel flew with KLM and connected onto other flights? How many on WW booked at the last minute and paid £200+ as a result?

My comments - blunt, admittedly - are valid. We can only know how well an airline is doing once freight and yield are taken into consideration. It doesn't even tell us how well BHX is doing as we have no way of knowing how much the pax spent getting from the entrance to the aircraft.


By all means analyse raw figures, but they carry health warnings.....



S78

S78 - As far as I remember, Pete has never implied that these monthly stats are an indication of profit or how well BHX is doing. They are simply an indication of pax numbers on a route by route basis, simple as.

You are right, no one is above examination and differences of opinion are what keeps this forum alive but I think you are criticising something that he has never actually set out to do. I personally find these figures interesting and I (amongst many others i'm sure) appreciate all his efforts, keep 'em coming Pete!

PS As for FR I have doubted the appearance of any extra based a/c at BHX for a while, I think summer 2010 is the earliest for now, I think that applies to new routes as well....:bored:

Siloesid

Plagiarism? I think not.
I can't even find your post so it certainly isn't on this thread.
As for the incident occuring on the 2nd May you may well be correct, however I had googled 'Birmingham Post Police Helicopter' and the first article came up with a UFO story and Nov 24th date at the top.

S78

Got to say that many of us welcome the analysis Pete gives us and appreciate all the work he puts in to produce the figures. :ok:

May route analysis figures
 

For all those have thanked me for my efforts much appreciated.

S78 is definitely right about one aspect, if you do post on forums
you have got to expect some flack as there are so many sad
individuals out there waiting to pounce.

If you wanted to be picky you could with a lot of these figures,
such as I have not checked which flights baby used the 735 on
or the 733 thus making all the baby loads technically incorrect
but it is just an overview of what is going on with some routes.

Although I have to admit I did check every EK flight with the
config details I hold to get a fairly accurate load factor - gosh
maybe I am one of those sad individuals!

By the way Amsterdam was down due to one less daily KLM
flight and one less Sunday rotation by Baby. However if I
explained every single aspect like that I would never get to bed!

Pete

Stats
 

Olton Pete

Keep them coming, we all know they are approx and dont take into account yields but are intersting and give a good indication on what is happening.

Thee CAA think that it is worthwhile publishing them in the first place and all that Pete does in drill into them a little more and put more meat onto the bones.

Good on you.

Centre cities

Interesting stuff Olton Pete. Keep 'em coming.