DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 4
 

Onion quoted:-

"Heslop2006 MME catchment area is bigger than NCL so to argue that one is just silly. If it is advertised right by travel agents etc it would sell if it was at MME".

Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...245932&page=14

The catchment discussion has been had before. MME has a bigger catchment within 2 hours drive, NCL has bigger with in 1 hours drive. I'm quoting myself here from about a year ago, 'i live with in the 2 hour catchment of MME, but would have to drive South on the A1 past NCL to get there. Unless MME has something to offer that NCL, LBA, DSA doesnt the 2 hour rule will never come into play.

DTV -catchment area
 

Good point centrefix-However the time factor element is open to question-especially with the state of NE roads and ongoing congestion ? Dont forget not everyone drives to our airports.

I feel there are Five parts to the equation of a successful airport operation.

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

The first of course being the main ingredient !!

If you have all five you should/could have a successful brand?
I would imagine..obtaining point one is the most difficult?

So where, using this little list does DTV measure up to?

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

Well for DTV....
1) Not brilliant but getting better....
2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
3) Flight Costs - roughly the same on the same routes.
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
5) Airport Terminal, well not brilliant at the moment, quick to get through on arrival, getting better though!

2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
There may be more people within a two hour drive but most of these will be nearer to NCL, LBA or DSA than to MME so as CentreFix25 said, until MME offers something that the others don't why should they drive further to get to MME??
As for accessibilty - anywhere's get better access than LBA, but NCL's got a Metro link to the nearest major conurbation and is at the end of a dual carriageway spur from the regions (admittedly increasingly congested) road route where as MME is in the middle of nowhere (a bit harsh, I know - but it's not the easiest place to get to...)
and when are they going to sort out those roadsigns!!!:confused:

I hope this finishes the catchment area argument once and for all

from “The future development of air transport in the UK: North of England”

Page 42, Table 2.2 ‘Population Catchment’

1 hour road catchement population

MAN 5-7 million
LPL 5-7 million
LBA 3-5 million
MME 2-3 million
NCL 2-3 million
HUY 0.6 – 1 million

2 hour road catchment population

LBA 16-18 million
MAN 15-17 million
LPL 13-15 million
HUY 10-11 million
MME 6-7 million
NCL 3-4 million


data per DLTR NAAM model.

So as we can see NCL and MME have the same population living within an hour drive, neither is credited with a bigger population. Within 2 hours drive though MME wins hands down. True there are many other factors that come into play, like what routes and frequency is on offer.
I know people say that they wont travel past NCL or LBA to get to MME if there the same flights but that is just not true. Many travel to MME from within Newcastle to get flights to Spain. I ve seen it and actually been in the terminal when people living in Newcastle have gone out to Spain. Also people do actually drive past MME to get to NCL when there are the same flights on the same day etc. This is often down to travel agents pushing NCL.

Postcard I think you should know me by now not to argue. Think I have proven it now!

There's been a couple of references in recent posts to travel agents pushing NCL over MME (presumably this doesn't apply to those who live in Newcastle who have driven to MME to fly to Spain...), but why would they do this - laziness, lack of awareness or are they getting commercial incentives?
Oh, and do those pax on the way to NCL drive past Teesside or Durham Tees Valley?:ok:
and to prove you can do anything with numbers, shouldn't HUY be twice as big as MME...
;)

SWBKCB going by the figures yes, HUY should be bigger than MME and NCL, but we aren't talking bout HUY here are we. I'm just backing up my point and responding to postcard who said.

"Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?"

Just trying to keep this all based on facts not fiction like some will have you believe.

DTV catchment
 

Thanks Onion for that informative reply..now we all know the true facts-which of course was all I really wanted>
Sorry Didnt realise query was number 27 in a series of 46 arguments??

Still begs the question though why is DTV after 30+ years of trying-still light years away from being a successful regional airport?

Over to you Onion....

DTVA successful?
 

A bit harsh - suppose it depends on your criteria for success. For Peel it will be does/will it make money and for the local authorities it will be does it support the local economy (generating income through jobs and providing access for business users and tourists) and for the locals it will be can I get to where I want to go with the minimum effort and cost.
Don't know the answer to the first one but for the second two I would have thought the answer is yes but could do better.

;)

Do you not think that MME has been pretty successful considering the amount of competition it faces from NCL and LBA? Everywhere you look in the area ther are adverts from Jet2 and easyjet enticing you to fly from NCL or LBA. would you call 900,000 passengers a year not successful, considering the size of the airport? Losing bmibaby was a huge blow, but do you not agree that some of the routes bmibaby operated were not the best choices, i.e Cork, Knock and Belfast. It was as if they were saying that we fly to these places from our other bases, so they must be successful from MME too, when clearly they were not going to be that successful. They were tryint to fit MME into their existing route structure, instead of finding different routes that would be successful from MME. Flyglobespan have picked up the most successful routes and added more routes to the sunshine destinations that they know are going to be successful. And if they are getting 900,000 passenegers from a 1hr drive catchment area of 2-3 million people, it is not doing too badly. Maybe we should have this debate in a years time to see how next summer goes, and the new Wizz route to Warsaw.

The way I see it is, I agree with what mmeman said, but at the same time, I do think we should be doing better.

But at the end of the day, when the LCC boom first began, we missed the boat and as a result we're playing catch-up to NCL and LBA, and that's the point - we're not catching up, the gap between us and NCL is not closing like it should be.

Regards.

Depends on what you class as success. MME may not be doing as well as it should be in terms of pax numbers, but there are many other criteria to include. MME has Flight Precision and FRA two very large users of the airport, ok not large aircraft but they do put money and movements through the airport. Then there is the flying schools, ok again not big business but providing a service to all those who want to become pilots. Then you have TNT ok again only a small item but MME is there European maintenance base for the 146. Then you have the Fire School providing an invaluable service again. On top of this MME is used by many airlines for training and just over the past few days Ryanair, Jet2 and Flyglobespan have all been doing circuits.
I believe that too many people put to much emphasis on pax numbers at airports. Yes more often than not it is what counts and is usually what most airports are judged on, but what is a successful airport?

To add my 10pence worth on the catchment area discussion I think as long as DTV works hard to ensure that pax from North Yorkshire up to Durham/Sunderland see MME as their local airport rather than NCL and LBA and offer them services that they want and will use (i.e. the costas bucket and spade short haul and cheap city breaks) rather than peculiar experiments (e.g. Knock) then they have done all they can given the only city in that area is Durham (relatively small) and a lot the catchment are is actually rural (a problem shared by HUY)

I think MME should see attracting Newcastle/Leeds people as a pure bonus as let's face it only cost of flights (with the locos) or availibility (with charters)will push them to use MME.

On another front can anyone enlighten me why the BRU morning flight wasn't showing on the arrivals/departures page of the airport website during the festive period?was it operational or did EZE cancel the route as they often do at this time when business pax aren't travelling as much?

MME progress and loss of Bmibaby.
 

I think that the success of the few FR routes is testament that MME can attract the passengers. I blame WW for its failure at MME.

The marketing ppl at bmibaby have not put bmibaby on the map in an aggressive way. Bmibaby never led the pack and at this stage I cant see them doing it either. Dont get me wrong I know a few ppl who work for WW and its no comment on the employees , as far as I am concerned if bmibaby can make a base like MME work with a very sufficient catchment area they may as well as forget about it. WW have never been headline creating perception . eg FR announce new bases , its all growth and expansion. Bmi were always viewed as a good company , its sad that WW has not been leading the pack, a marvelous opportunity was lost they could have been up there with FR as one of the European LCC leaders. The brand is smart . pity the strategy didnt follow through.

MME has a job on its hand. They need Ryanair in there with a base , whatever it takes. reduced charges? THe volume would make the overall FR business viable. Flybe is also another good one for the smaller markets. I would love to see both these companies come in. To be fair NCL has alot of expertise in its backers CPH ? So a strong airline is need at MME.

SWBKCB

Eastern have a very much reduced schedule during xmas and new year from all bases not just mme. This is I presume to be because it is classed as a business class airline and obviously over holiday periods business is all but stopped.

I am sure if you tried to get to Brussels now you would not have a problem

Durham
 

I don't know if any of the posters on here are accountants, or have access to the balance sheets at MME, but on the face of it things look pretty bleak this winter.Its all very well quoting catchment areas and numbers but there are other factors affecting the economic performance of the airport, ease of access being one, index of social deprivation of the population being another etc.etc.Onion makes a good point about FRA and the other bits and pieces which all contribute to the running of the place,but the current departures board tells its own story.
The important thing now is for Globespan to do the business this summer, in the eighties Yugotours did a good trade at Pula and maybe this will be a winning destination for us smoggies.
I think that Peels hyped up expansion plans won't happen until after at least one full (successful) season, but we shall have to wait and see.

Flyglobespan MME-TFS
 

Just received a very efficient e-mail from the route development department of GSM responding to a query about the above route and its continuation past 27th March.

I'm afraid it's a puzzling 'NO' from GSM on this route-they said they will be flying this in winter 07 along with other routes due to be announced in the next 2 months though:rolleyes:

I feel this is a bit of a strange one but can only presume it isn't attracting the numbers GSM deems appropriate for a summer route. As much as I love the french riviera i would have thought a TFS route in the summer would have proved more popular than a NCE from MME?

Also looking at the prices still available on the first few flights of the GRO route in Feb does not look like these planes will be full by any means:*

BMI
 

Are the rumours of the Paris returning and BMI pulling CDG from LBA plus the new 145s their getting linked? Or am I being a little to hopeful?

bmi seem to be closing their CDG base completely, so seems unlikely that they will replace one regional route with another just up the road (especialy as I would suspect LBA has more of the sort of high-yield pax that bmi are after). However, does release aircraft plus the new Embraers which have to be used for something.

According to the KLM and Skyteam schedules, the MME-AMS goes up to 4 rotations for the period April - June. Strangely, it isn't there in July and is infact only there for this 3 month period.

All now bookable on the website.

i could be clutching at straws here but now BMI have released an EMB aircraft at LBA from its route to CDG is there any slim chance of them sending it to us at MME, and hopefully not just to operate to LHR. As we dont anymore have a route to CDG and Flyglobespan didnt add it to their base announcement of routes and having heard the pax loads on Baby werent too bad could this be a possible option or is the North east a bit flooded with services to CDG, especially as Jet2 are supposedly going to add capacity in BMI's absence?

(Apologies for all the abbreviations :rolleyes: )

If they do I doubt it will head to CDG, i'm sure the news release I saw was that they were pulling out of CDG totally.

The ERJ has to go somewhere though, or will it just be used for the new LBA/CPH instead?

LBA-CPH is only once daily so won't use the CDG aircraft. I thinkit will replace an EDI flight which will be moved to a new EDI based aircraft

Lot's of diversions in yesterday and probably again today and next week as well due to weather, plus, rumours that on either Sunday/Monday a special flight could be arriving at MME which will be either a Gulfstream G450, a Boeing BBJ or even a Boeing 777, so a few things to look out for in the coming days.
Regards,

Mme - Cdg
 

Personally UKLad007 speaking as a francophile I would love to think that BD might start a regional service to CDG but I would think that this would go against the grain of the company's decision to pull out of CDG and any hope of such a based aircraft would surely be given to JER over CDG though given GSM announcing this route even this would seem slim.

My bet is that the spare EMB will be given to GLA, EDI, ABZ or MAN and taken up with increased frequencies to established routes:*

Hey folks, I'm a twr/app controller, I'm thinking of applying to DTV after spotting the recent ad ... any controllers wanna pm me? Just a few Q's about DTV and Peel airports ... T's & C's etc ;)

cheers

S.P.

The BD345 re-appears soon with an 0550 or 0600 departure ! This is only for two weeks before going back to 2145. Apparently due to the CDG slots being freed up. Come on bmi, stop mucking everyone about. :ugh:
God knows what they're going to do to the summer schedule.

I have heard the BD Reus charter is confirmed for Monday lunchtimes in the summer, in at 1310 and out at 1410.

BMI
 

I really do wash my hands with BD-What is their medium to long term development plan? To keep chopping and changing routes, bases, aircraft, times until some miracle happens either in the form of a takeover or financial success? It smacks to me of losing the plot with introducing this frequency for a 2 week period-I am already puzzled why they would drop all routes to CDG and this 5.50am departure from MME is equally baffling!!

Anyone know what equipment the REUS rotation will be on?

Also, is the FCA Grenoble flight a one off today?

FCA ski flight to Grenoble went out the last 2 weeks also, so tomorrow will make it 3 departures in a row.... better than last year!

As for BD, I think that an early morning departure from here would be fairly popular, they really do need to seriously look at changing the MME times.

bmi
 

With regards to bmi, they cut all CDG routes because they weren't competing well enough against the LCC's; there's no point in keeping routes that aren't making money.

But yes, they are messing us around, it's back to three times daily for the summer, and bmi seriously need to look at the times, and more importantly, invest in some serious and clever local advertising - a TV advert would be best, but I doubt that will happen right?

The events of this summer could decide the future of the LHR route - come on bmi, do something positive! I hope for all A319's for the summer, but knowing our luck, we'll probably get an Embraer again on the morning run.

Regards.

Flyg Changes
 

Been some minor changes to the Flyglobespan schedule for the summer, now sees a third weekly Faro flight on a Friday afternoon.... as well as some minor time adjustments. There is still 1 flight on a Saturday afternoon (Mahon) that doesn't fit in with 2 gaps (Sat morning, Tue afternoon) so I guess that will just fall into the Sat morning gap. Therefore this would leave 1 gap on a Tuesday afternoon.....

Also looks like Pegasus won't be coming back on the Dalaman flight for First Choice/Thomas Cook as both seem to be saying it's not available.

FCA Ski Flight
 

Just seen the FCA on finals into MME so does that make it yesterday and today then? Is this a weekly route or for just two weeks like last year?


As with regards to bmi, advertising would be great as the MME LHR is a great route to have that many a regioanl airport would love but i'm afraid an advert after the Tyne Tees weather with no mention of the actual route (Just the BMI name and website!)won't help!

For the average passenger who would use BMI to LHR, just knowing whether its 3 or 4 times a day and knowing the times (i.e a morning, lunchtime and evening) is paramount and makes you more likely to book with them than this constant chopping and changing which leaves people confused and unable to make concrete plans in the future. KLM seem to do this no probs at MME with only minor tweaks to the timetable and aircraft at the usual times u'd expect i.e. going from winter to summer timetable etc!

I'm sorry if BMI can't make CDG work it's worrying as from LHR they seem to offer low fares and many a passenger would be interlining to a star alliance partner. Ok at LBA its different but i thought BD was for the business traveller given its frequency of 3x daily and the 1 x daily Jet2 was for leisure as they could never afford the regional prices!

Cork and Newquay
 

Was just wondering if any airlines had looked at picking these routes up out of MME, both were fairly popular. These would be ideal for an airline like Flybe, Air Southwest or Aer Arran to take on. Also is there any possibility that these could in anyway be tied into some sort of based operation for an airline with Gatwick, Paris or Belfast. Maybe something for BMI or Flybe to look at!

One of these days when I get really bored I'm going to have a look aound all the various airport threads and tot up exactly how many regional airports FlyBe is going to be the saviour of!

Methinks they've got an awful lot of work with the BA Connect deal before they go looking for trouble elsewhere...

I can only see Aer Arann picking up Cork, but they won't because they operate the route at LBA, which they would probably see MME-ORK as competing with themselves, and it doesn't fit GSM's route-structure. The only way I can see us getting Cork is if Jet2 launch the route from LBA, muscling Aer Arann out, then they may look at us. As for Newquay, when Air Southwest decides to expand, MME-NQY possibly via BRS should be right up their street. Other than a BHD service, Flybe probably won't touch us, and we definitely won't get anymore base operations in the near future.

Regards,

Yesterday an application was published on the CAA website for a scheduled service between DTV and Jersey by Flyglobespan to operate between 30th June and 27th October 2007.

SWBKCB I think your being a little harsh. MME doesn't need a saviour. Just looking at the routes I suggested and being sensible about who may operate them. Anyway does Flybe being the saviour of regional airports include coming into NCL with a 4 aircraft base?

Future routes ex MME
 

I agree with a lot of opinions here with regards future routes and have said so in previous posts but will throw my ideas open again:

definately can't see a new based operation in the near future. MME must see how GSM get on first as don't want to tip the boat and have too many routes for too few pax so...

BHD-will only be on a BE BHD based aircraft or-at a push-a MME T3 Jetstream

NQY/BRS-fits WOW perfectly and would bring back BRS into the network from MME but hard to fit this into winter AND summer so maybe summer NQY and BRS and winter BRS only?

CDG/ORY-only option would be GSM expanding (u never know even if not currently served by them elsewhere just look at JER) or very tenious but cityJet or EZY from their ORY base.

ORK- could only see GSM trying this one as agree Aer Arann would be stepping on their own toes here

CIA- come on FR it was popular and if they choose the right times and don't offer it from NCL/DSA/LBA it will draw a lot in from across the catchment area

LGW-do we need it?

Apart from these routes i really don't see any more routes are needed/sustainable. All have been tried just not served by the best operator/timings/aircraft

I would rather see a BFS service before a BHD, probably a good one for Eastern to try but the airport management would have to ask them, and they have got about five more BAe Jetstream 41s due for delivery to them in the next few days, two of which were circuit bashing at MME in the form of G-CDYH and G-MAJZ, so they could do it. NQY for summer and BRS for winter would be ideal for Air Southwest, but they don't seem to be expanding at the moment. There's no suitable operators who will look at CDG or ORY from MME, GSM could try it but don't think it's likely, as for CIA, I believe GSM already serve Rome so I'm sure they could make it work from here and we definitely don't want LGW back yet, because it would finish LHR, and I'm sure people would rather see LHR recover, I know I would.

Regards,