BA staff walkout @ LHR
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Aeroflirt
The situation has still not been resolved and more (this time official) strike action is looming. We are not out of the woods yet with this.
From very reliable sources, very soon there is possibly going to be another "all-out" depending on meetings and/or/if the swipe cards are implemented as planned.
Chris.
From very reliable sources, very soon there is possibly going to be another "all-out" depending on meetings and/or/if the swipe cards are implemented as planned.
Chris.
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Would anyone care to post information on hours and wages worked by ground staff ? (How about basic hourly wage and typical daily timetable) ?
If there aren't any 'typical' hours, at least post what you might get asked to work, and what you might expect to get paid.
I'm sure it'd be very instructive!
At STN, Groundstar/Servisair (which together handle most of the low-cost ops) employees get around 5.80/hr (sorry, don't have the 'pound' sign) and shifts range from 0400 to 1100, 1100 to 1800, 1800 to 2300 (+ overtime when something goes wrong, which does happen from time to time).
Or 11,000 pound/annum (pro rata).
Any takers? You could earn well over 16,000 as CC with Ryanair.....
If there aren't any 'typical' hours, at least post what you might get asked to work, and what you might expect to get paid.
I'm sure it'd be very instructive!
At STN, Groundstar/Servisair (which together handle most of the low-cost ops) employees get around 5.80/hr (sorry, don't have the 'pound' sign) and shifts range from 0400 to 1100, 1100 to 1800, 1800 to 2300 (+ overtime when something goes wrong, which does happen from time to time).
Or 11,000 pound/annum (pro rata).
Any takers? You could earn well over 16,000 as CC with Ryanair.....
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So where is Skippy?
Other boards suggest he went to HKG on Saturday night.......with Cathay!Perhaps his staff travel concessions are better with them. Either that or he daren't face his frontlibne staff at the moment!
Other boards suggest he went to HKG on Saturday night.......with Cathay!Perhaps his staff travel concessions are better with them. Either that or he daren't face his frontlibne staff at the moment!
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Anti Ice
Thankyou for your measured reponse. I also accept my involvement in thread creep and apologise for that. Back to the matter in hand......
I urge all those involved in Customer Services to email, petition or speak to their representatives and state that their response must now be that of negotiation. Solidarity has been shown and the industrial muscles were not just flexed but given steroids last Friday.
Ask for assurances from your managers about the system that caused all this. If they cannot give these assurances then you are all set up to destroy BA, much to the chagrin of the rest of us. But I can accept that. British Airways mark 2 would be a leaner more profitable company. I would suggest that the employee contracts dished out after liquidation, for the gaping whole that existed post collapse, would be paltry compared to what we have now. Not only that, 3 months of debt would exist for all lucky enough to be re-employed so we would face 2 options, Poor Credit ratings or unemployment.
Company pride and loyalty has been destroyed as in most other British Companies by the mechanisms of Harvard School business practice. It is outdated but relentless and unless we storm the heart of Corporate Governance the whole world will disappear up its a*se in an Orwellian version of Feudal haves and have nots. I'm in agreement with the previous thread writer who appears to have correctly assessed that whilst the "Fat Cat" mechanism of short term incentive pay (combining employee salary budget cuts with their inversely proportional share option schemes) may help with the expenses section of the annual Profit & Loss report. It doesn't seem to recognise the reducing revenue as a response to it. Whilst morale and customer satisfaction remain unquantifiable (stick those surveys in the bin - they will do more good) the management practices that were appropriate in the first 3 years after privatisation are now destroying most companies in Britain. BA are not quite crippled with this problem but their crutches are in need of a bit of wood preserver by way of 3 things.
Thankyou for your measured reponse. I also accept my involvement in thread creep and apologise for that. Back to the matter in hand......
I urge all those involved in Customer Services to email, petition or speak to their representatives and state that their response must now be that of negotiation. Solidarity has been shown and the industrial muscles were not just flexed but given steroids last Friday.
Ask for assurances from your managers about the system that caused all this. If they cannot give these assurances then you are all set up to destroy BA, much to the chagrin of the rest of us. But I can accept that. British Airways mark 2 would be a leaner more profitable company. I would suggest that the employee contracts dished out after liquidation, for the gaping whole that existed post collapse, would be paltry compared to what we have now. Not only that, 3 months of debt would exist for all lucky enough to be re-employed so we would face 2 options, Poor Credit ratings or unemployment.
Company pride and loyalty has been destroyed as in most other British Companies by the mechanisms of Harvard School business practice. It is outdated but relentless and unless we storm the heart of Corporate Governance the whole world will disappear up its a*se in an Orwellian version of Feudal haves and have nots. I'm in agreement with the previous thread writer who appears to have correctly assessed that whilst the "Fat Cat" mechanism of short term incentive pay (combining employee salary budget cuts with their inversely proportional share option schemes) may help with the expenses section of the annual Profit & Loss report. It doesn't seem to recognise the reducing revenue as a response to it. Whilst morale and customer satisfaction remain unquantifiable (stick those surveys in the bin - they will do more good) the management practices that were appropriate in the first 3 years after privatisation are now destroying most companies in Britain. BA are not quite crippled with this problem but their crutches are in need of a bit of wood preserver by way of 3 things.
- Spend 2 years fixing Senior Manager pay to the results of the employee opinion surveys using year '0' as the bench mark for improvement.
- Manage by Adult-Adult negotiation rather than imposition and response
- Finally, and contentiously, get rid of the employees (not managers) who ruin it for the rest of us. The colleagues who don't care for their colleagues when they go sick all the time when it suits them, because were it not for these individuals we'd probably not be having this conversation right now.
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Confined to LHR...?
My apologies if this has already been covered (poor connection, wouldn't manage to read all 14 pages of this thread), but will this general issue in any way start to affect LGW as well? So far it seems that staff there have kept their 'noses the grindstone'.
In fact, is this also a system which the newly (well new-ish anyway) formed BA CitiExpress also uses.... or is this simply a BA LHR issue?
Let's hope it's resolved as soon as possible - if not for BA, then for all the holiday-going public (including me...
CG
(Edited for spelling )
In fact, is this also a system which the newly (well new-ish anyway) formed BA CitiExpress also uses.... or is this simply a BA LHR issue?
Let's hope it's resolved as soon as possible - if not for BA, then for all the holiday-going public (including me...
CG
(Edited for spelling )
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Off at a slight tangent, but does anyone know what the compensation procedures are for Pax who were involved - on friday night, instead of flying LHR - MAN, I ended up on virgin trains instead, and resulting taxis etc cost a fortune
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Lizard...
From www.ba.com:
Refunds and expenses
All refunds and expenses are available by sending original receipts and tickets to the following address; British Airways Customer Relations, PO Box 5619 (S506), Sudbury, Suffolk CO10 2PG.
Outside the UK click here for details of your local BA office.
NoD
From www.ba.com:
Refunds and expenses
All refunds and expenses are available by sending original receipts and tickets to the following address; British Airways Customer Relations, PO Box 5619 (S506), Sudbury, Suffolk CO10 2PG.
Outside the UK click here for details of your local BA office.
NoD
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Ground staff salaries: opposite of flying staff!
I have seen many messages incorrectly mentioning the same working conditions for flying crew (all of them) and ground staff.
The salary levels are definitely different and the scale of this gap is huge.
This is why it might be difficult for a member of Cabin crew, let's say a CSD on an old contract of around 35K basic, which means a net pay per month, after allowances, of around an average of 3500K in hands, against a Gross average of around 15-16K on the ground, meaning a net of around 700-800 pound a month for the average ground agent.
This difference is huge guys!
This is the main issue here on this forum, and this is why we see people deciding to go on strike, and at the same time we see other BA staff disagreeing with this strike.
You have to look at the wider scenario: the changes that Management wants to implement on the ground must be seen in this specific low "salary" context, and not in a £3500K a month context.
Nobody dreams to go on strike if salary is good and conditions are great. Please!
My figures are unofficial, but I believe them to be quite realistic as they have been given to me by real Ba staff on the ground and on the air.
Thank you.
I think now the argument is a bit clearer and this helps to understand the different point of views.
The salary levels are definitely different and the scale of this gap is huge.
This is why it might be difficult for a member of Cabin crew, let's say a CSD on an old contract of around 35K basic, which means a net pay per month, after allowances, of around an average of 3500K in hands, against a Gross average of around 15-16K on the ground, meaning a net of around 700-800 pound a month for the average ground agent.
This difference is huge guys!
This is the main issue here on this forum, and this is why we see people deciding to go on strike, and at the same time we see other BA staff disagreeing with this strike.
You have to look at the wider scenario: the changes that Management wants to implement on the ground must be seen in this specific low "salary" context, and not in a £3500K a month context.
Nobody dreams to go on strike if salary is good and conditions are great. Please!
My figures are unofficial, but I believe them to be quite realistic as they have been given to me by real Ba staff on the ground and on the air.
Thank you.
I think now the argument is a bit clearer and this helps to understand the different point of views.
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You said it yourself - "let's say a CSD on an old contract of around 35K basic". The new contracts are nothing like that - you need to compare like with like surely?
BA would probably think it would be great to remove all these CSDs onto the new contracts, but that would be an incredible drop in terms and conditions which would make what you guys are mad about seem insignificant.
All I am saying is that flying crew on the new contracts do not earn the fortunes you suggest.
BA would probably think it would be great to remove all these CSDs onto the new contracts, but that would be an incredible drop in terms and conditions which would make what you guys are mad about seem insignificant.
All I am saying is that flying crew on the new contracts do not earn the fortunes you suggest.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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ILS It still begs the question unfortunately of why different pay for different jobs should create bad feeling within BA. The Prime Minister probably doesn't get as much as Elton John, should he? With respect if a counter employee doesn't get as much as cabin staff then it is their own job selection that has created the difference. If you begin comparing apples with apples and the BA staff who walked away from their jobs were being paid well under the industry level for their type of job it would be slightly more understandable. The talk of intolerable pressure applies as much to the counter staff of any other airlines? passengers who walk up to a BA counter are the same cross section that walk up to many other airlines counters in Heathrow terminals.
Millitancy/standing up for oneself? seems that sort of comment a millitant might use to describe his actions. Don't think it has entirely died out G Fiend.
Sawing the branch upon which one is sitting is the image brought to mind by this latest action, a small problem being the others sitting alongside who would rather the eager beaver with the saw desisted.
Millitancy/standing up for oneself? seems that sort of comment a millitant might use to describe his actions. Don't think it has entirely died out G Fiend.
Sawing the branch upon which one is sitting is the image brought to mind by this latest action, a small problem being the others sitting alongside who would rather the eager beaver with the saw desisted.
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I don't know why you chose to compare a CSD's salary against an average ground workers salary. Please compare like for like, if that's possible in this case.
Your example is not a good one, as neither the job specification, experience, length of service or levels of responsibility are comparable.
I believe that CSDs on longhaul make up only 6% of the workforce, and many of them will not be earning £35k+ basic.
If you must, why not compare the ground staff salaries to that of a considerable number of main crew on the 'new' contract? Their basic salary is £9000 average, eaning £1500 on a really good month, including allowances.
Anyway, I wasn't aware that earnings were the main issue in this dispute?
Your example is not a good one, as neither the job specification, experience, length of service or levels of responsibility are comparable.
I believe that CSDs on longhaul make up only 6% of the workforce, and many of them will not be earning £35k+ basic.
If you must, why not compare the ground staff salaries to that of a considerable number of main crew on the 'new' contract? Their basic salary is £9000 average, eaning £1500 on a really good month, including allowances.
Anyway, I wasn't aware that earnings were the main issue in this dispute?
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Salaries: nothing to do with the strike but....
This dispute has got nothing to do with salaries, we all know this, but my post was needed in here as I have seen too many pilots and cabin crew in this forum, quite astonished because of this strike: they should talk face to face to the ground staff at LHR or even try only one day to work with them, and then you would all understand the reasons behind this strike.
I know well that new contracts for Cabin Crew are lower than old contracts but BA Cabin crew are still paid above average, if compared to other UK carriers.
It is BA ground staff that is underpaid, if compared to equivalent jobs on the ground. This is why, I repeat, when you overstretch your staff to the limit, any restrictive measure "against" the staff is normally interpreted by this as an "insult" and even if I am not ground staff, I have to support them during this industrial dispute.
I don't see how I could not, especially when I have seen nobody from the "Board", no even one Manager on the ground facing these angry and anxious passengers. Easy to understand why: it is a very hard job!...and because of this they should be motivated and well paid. I do not think this is happening nowdays.
Thanks.
I know well that new contracts for Cabin Crew are lower than old contracts but BA Cabin crew are still paid above average, if compared to other UK carriers.
It is BA ground staff that is underpaid, if compared to equivalent jobs on the ground. This is why, I repeat, when you overstretch your staff to the limit, any restrictive measure "against" the staff is normally interpreted by this as an "insult" and even if I am not ground staff, I have to support them during this industrial dispute.
I don't see how I could not, especially when I have seen nobody from the "Board", no even one Manager on the ground facing these angry and anxious passengers. Easy to understand why: it is a very hard job!...and because of this they should be motivated and well paid. I do not think this is happening nowdays.
Thanks.
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Listening to the views of passengers stranded outside T4 on ITV News, I cannot believe the sheer stupidity of those responsible for this unofficial strike action.
But is it stupidity? Is it truly beyond the realms of possibility that one or more of BA's struggling competitors may have somehow cajoled the staff into an action which is going to be truly devastating to BA?
Is it not interesting that this started in the Central T1/2/3 area where most of BAs competitors are based and then went over to T4?
Probably a product of my imagination but it only takes one spark to light dry tired grass!
Just to add my tuppence worth, I think BA management should sack every single man jack that walked out, there are plenty of fine people itching for a chance to work under the conditions these people have. You are quite within your rights to sack these people and replace them with people who actually want to work!
But is it stupidity? Is it truly beyond the realms of possibility that one or more of BA's struggling competitors may have somehow cajoled the staff into an action which is going to be truly devastating to BA?
Is it not interesting that this started in the Central T1/2/3 area where most of BAs competitors are based and then went over to T4?
Probably a product of my imagination but it only takes one spark to light dry tired grass!
Just to add my tuppence worth, I think BA management should sack every single man jack that walked out, there are plenty of fine people itching for a chance to work under the conditions these people have. You are quite within your rights to sack these people and replace them with people who actually want to work!
Wrong. very very wrong. To just walk out and leave hundreds of thousands stranded, not good business sense by all concerned. Ba have been branded as unreliable now IMHO, who would want to book their holiday/business trips with an airline that may not operate even within the bounds of probably every airline/IATA/ICAO etc agreement going. Whether you like it or not, from the meekest wheelchair pusher to the senior management, you are all responsible for making the airline work, if a decision or working practice is introduced, it won't be on a whim, it will have long reaching plans and expected results. If you don't like it or the way it affects you, yes then approach your union and air your greivences, don't stab the entire airline and passengers (your wages) in the back. Some attitudes I observed in T3 on saturday were astonishing, rude and curt leaving both children and adults crying. We had 40+ pax transferred to our flight on saturday, by my calculations, thats £40K of revenue to my airline. Keep going and you'll have my company out of the red very soon.
Aisle seat, please.
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I'm just a passenger/SLF but I want my trip to be as smooth as possible so I take appropriate action. I take a good book to read, I arrive on time and I'm polite and friendly to the staff I deal with, on the premise that they will then be polite and friendly to me.
Airline travel will never be fun, there is too much waiting around and standing in queues for that. But, with a bit of thought and a good attitude, the experience can be improved greatly.
Over the last few days, I've added another precaution: if there is an alternative, I won't book with BA. Since most of my flying is to CDG, FRA and various places in the US, I normally have lots of alternatives and my executive club card will stay in my wallet. Delays for weather, repairs, even (dare I say it) strikes are all part of life for the traveller - you learn to deal with it. But a mass walk out with no notice is something else - I'm not prepared to risk my time, energy and stomach acid with an airline where that happens - sorry guys.
Does it matter that one bald, middle aged guy will be taking his laptop on and off AF and BMI flights in future?
Airline travel will never be fun, there is too much waiting around and standing in queues for that. But, with a bit of thought and a good attitude, the experience can be improved greatly.
Over the last few days, I've added another precaution: if there is an alternative, I won't book with BA. Since most of my flying is to CDG, FRA and various places in the US, I normally have lots of alternatives and my executive club card will stay in my wallet. Delays for weather, repairs, even (dare I say it) strikes are all part of life for the traveller - you learn to deal with it. But a mass walk out with no notice is something else - I'm not prepared to risk my time, energy and stomach acid with an airline where that happens - sorry guys.
Does it matter that one bald, middle aged guy will be taking his laptop on and off AF and BMI flights in future?
Last edited by Gouabafla; 23rd Jul 2003 at 00:26.
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Having passed through T4 recently a number of times on positioning and leave flights, I have always tried to travel BA if I can, I would say ILS 27 that some of the counter staff have been pleasant and helpful, some unpleasant and unhelpful. I, much as Goubafly and no doubt many others, always try to be as pleasant as I can, but people are people and everyone has a less than perfect day. What I can say is that when passengers start to get agitated it is indeed a bad situation and having a strike in a very busy period is bound to have agitated them not a little. Then having stoked up a firestorm you wonder why it would be intimidating to get in there and tell them nothing can be done for them?
Poking a bee swarm with a stick and then remarking that they seem bad tempered is what was happening then, and it does not happen every day.
Interesting your comment that it has nothing to do with salaries???? my comment was because you had brought up the massive difference surely! Besides there are many work sectors that have to deal with agitated and excited people, if they all walked out because they felt agrieved there would be anarchy.
Poking a bee swarm with a stick and then remarking that they seem bad tempered is what was happening then, and it does not happen every day.
Interesting your comment that it has nothing to do with salaries???? my comment was because you had brought up the massive difference surely! Besides there are many work sectors that have to deal with agitated and excited people, if they all walked out because they felt agrieved there would be anarchy.
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It's been said before but I feel that it needs reinforcing.
If you want to strike then that is FINE - NO ONE minds a workforce striking - it is one of the few remaining courses of action that people have to stop them from being ridden roughshod by company management.
BUT JUST STAGING AN IMPROMPTU WALKOUT WITH NO WARNING IS NOT RIGHT.
IT WILL NOT HELP THE WORKERS CAUSE, in fact quite the contrary. The media and public opinions are now both against the workers who staged the walkout. If they had taken a ballot then gone out on strike, travellers would have been warned and could have taken preparation to avoid the upheaval, and the press would have been alerted to the plight of put upon staff at BA (who the press love to shoot at). Newspaer reports would have been good and they would have garnered public sympathy. Now, I'm sad to say, by spitting the dummy they've alienated everyone.
By all means rally against a tyrannical management if they're doing you over, but do it properly. PLEASE.
P7
If you want to strike then that is FINE - NO ONE minds a workforce striking - it is one of the few remaining courses of action that people have to stop them from being ridden roughshod by company management.
BUT JUST STAGING AN IMPROMPTU WALKOUT WITH NO WARNING IS NOT RIGHT.
IT WILL NOT HELP THE WORKERS CAUSE, in fact quite the contrary. The media and public opinions are now both against the workers who staged the walkout. If they had taken a ballot then gone out on strike, travellers would have been warned and could have taken preparation to avoid the upheaval, and the press would have been alerted to the plight of put upon staff at BA (who the press love to shoot at). Newspaer reports would have been good and they would have garnered public sympathy. Now, I'm sad to say, by spitting the dummy they've alienated everyone.
By all means rally against a tyrannical management if they're doing you over, but do it properly. PLEASE.
P7
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Well summed up Point 7
and I'll add my bit...due to the irresponsible behaviour of those concerned, without any concern for their employers (the ones that pay their salaries each month) or their CUSTOMERS (more importantly, the ones that enable their employers to pay their salaries) they should all be sacked for gross misconduct! Sacked on the spot, without any compensation or representation.
You think thats hard? Take a look at the video footage and see what they put all their customers through. How long do you think it will take all the 'responsible, customer orientated employees' to win back the suport you have all unilaterally lost in this unofficial dispute? A VERY LONG time, is my estimate. You have undermined your own jobs and jeopardised those of the responsible people that previously regarded you as colleagues. Shame on you all.
I hope BA survives this and I'm sure they will, but in a very different and slimmer form. Don't blame me; you were the ones that signed your own 'death warrants'!
and I'll add my bit...due to the irresponsible behaviour of those concerned, without any concern for their employers (the ones that pay their salaries each month) or their CUSTOMERS (more importantly, the ones that enable their employers to pay their salaries) they should all be sacked for gross misconduct! Sacked on the spot, without any compensation or representation.
You think thats hard? Take a look at the video footage and see what they put all their customers through. How long do you think it will take all the 'responsible, customer orientated employees' to win back the suport you have all unilaterally lost in this unofficial dispute? A VERY LONG time, is my estimate. You have undermined your own jobs and jeopardised those of the responsible people that previously regarded you as colleagues. Shame on you all.
I hope BA survives this and I'm sure they will, but in a very different and slimmer form. Don't blame me; you were the ones that signed your own 'death warrants'!
Paxing All Over The World
If the folks would like to know how the conversation about BA has spread way beyond the cameras at LHR ...
This afternoon (22nd) I was attending a funeral at The Chilterns Crematorium in Amersham, Buckinghamshire. As I was walking back to my car, I overheard a small group talking about the situation. I could not linger to hear more but people were speaking in tones of shock that such a strike could take place. As I reached my car I heard, "Well, Richard Branson gets my vote."
This afternoon (22nd) I was attending a funeral at The Chilterns Crematorium in Amersham, Buckinghamshire. As I was walking back to my car, I overheard a small group talking about the situation. I could not linger to hear more but people were speaking in tones of shock that such a strike could take place. As I reached my car I heard, "Well, Richard Branson gets my vote."
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To be honest I have not read through all 15 pages of this, it would take too long!
But I would like my say. The reason that PSU walked out was not just because of the swiping in/out system like the media are saying. It is because of the compulsory shift changes. How would you like to be told on friday your shift changed from wednesday to monday and you don't have a choice? What if You spent £100 on theatre tickets with your family? Tough. Booked a weekend away with your friends? Tough. Promised your child that you would take him out? Tough. You get the point.
PSU have tried to tell the managers there feelings, they have not listened. Also, how would you be liked to be sent home on a moments notice without pay because the company does not need you that day?
what about Rod taking a £50,000 pay rise and then catching the next plane to Hong kong right in the middle of this crisis?
The company treat PSU like dirt, what goes around comes around. These people do not want anything more than to be treated like proper human beings. They love their job and the money is not the issue.
HOWEVER, they certainly have not won public support over this, but how else do they get managment to listen? Would a legal strike have the same effect? I don't know. They shouyld have tried that corse of action first maybe.
Well, thats my point of view.
But I would like my say. The reason that PSU walked out was not just because of the swiping in/out system like the media are saying. It is because of the compulsory shift changes. How would you like to be told on friday your shift changed from wednesday to monday and you don't have a choice? What if You spent £100 on theatre tickets with your family? Tough. Booked a weekend away with your friends? Tough. Promised your child that you would take him out? Tough. You get the point.
PSU have tried to tell the managers there feelings, they have not listened. Also, how would you be liked to be sent home on a moments notice without pay because the company does not need you that day?
what about Rod taking a £50,000 pay rise and then catching the next plane to Hong kong right in the middle of this crisis?
The company treat PSU like dirt, what goes around comes around. These people do not want anything more than to be treated like proper human beings. They love their job and the money is not the issue.
HOWEVER, they certainly have not won public support over this, but how else do they get managment to listen? Would a legal strike have the same effect? I don't know. They shouyld have tried that corse of action first maybe.
Well, thats my point of view.