BA Euroflyer
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Europe
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's legitimate business reasons why this whole is idea is a bad one and that should be openly discussed. I'd love for BA to do well outside of LHR but to my mind, this concept has serious flaws. Any other airline who has a lower cost business unit on a separate certificate operating the same aircraft as mainline has a clear and apparent branding differential.
Air Canada has Rouge, Iberia has Iberia Express. But we all know BA do things the complex and convoluted special BA way, so they have BA aircraft in BA colours operating BA flights with former BA pilots and newbie cabin crew operating on a different AOC. It's like the AML experiment all over again.... IMHO unless they go single cabin and invest for growth with new equipment and a clear differential like go, it will ultimately fail. To me it's a contradiction to be British Airways and lower cost because the finance team will likely continue to try and attribute wider BA costs to Euroflyer because they're really just BA except they're pretending not to be. It's just Chinese Walls and they tend not to last in business. I'll also bet you that there's an internal conversation going on about those G-EUX* A321s going back to LHR where they can be used to support the core business of feeding long haul and being swapped out for the oldest A320s instead.
By comparison easyJet kept it very simple and are many times the size of BA at Gatwick. If only there was a successful template BA could follow.....but being BA they feel they need to offer Club and lounges.
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.
On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.
As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.
Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.
As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.
Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hemel Hempstead
Posts: 1,090
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think if they thought the A321s were better suited to LHR, they would’ve kept them there. It’s too much aircraft for the majority of sectors out of LHR (without killing yield) and they have ample A321NEOs to cover those that do need the capacity.
On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.
As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.
Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
On the other hand, it’s easy to fill A321s to Turkey, Spain and Greece in the summer.
As for Euroflyer, they’re not trying to be different. It’s just a fudge to allow worse staff T&Cs. The customer isn’t meant to notice a difference. They’ll never have enough slots to have a full operation at LHR so they’ll always be at Gatwick. If they can make that operation cheaper in any way, they will.
Can’t disagree with the general consensus on customer experience with BA, but if there’s one thing they know how to do, it’s make money.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Dorset
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good, and this is obviously a key differentiator against easyJet and others on the routes that Euroflyer is operating. If they can grow and sustain the cabin crew numbers (a whole other debate!) then it sounds like there is more potential for the Club cabins to grow too.
I was told the main reason that the G-EUX* A321s are going into Gatwick isn't really demand/capacity for big aircraft but that they get hammered on the Heathrow noise charges. They fall foul of some threshold in the Heathrow charges and there was apparently a couple of million quid per year difference per aircraft in the typical costs of operating the EUXs at Heathrow versus a NEO.
I was told the main reason that the G-EUX* A321s are going into Gatwick isn't really demand/capacity for big aircraft but that they get hammered on the Heathrow noise charges. They fall foul of some threshold in the Heathrow charges and there was apparently a couple of million quid per year difference per aircraft in the typical costs of operating the EUXs at Heathrow versus a NEO.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody has claimed LGW is a LCC type operation as far as customers are concerned. Often fares on so called LCC airlines can be eye watering, either just the fare or with extras added on.. the “cost” aspect refers to the airlines operational costs, as opposed to charged to the customers, but the former allows lower fares to be charged, sometimes.
From all that I hear, the Club Europe offer at Gatwick is one of the aspects working very well. The size of the Club cabins is capped because of cabin crew availability but the load factor up front sounds to be good
The relative weakness at LGW short haul is apparently the % of available seats redeemed vs. paid. They're trying to offer a multi cabin short haul point to point service aginast easyJet and Wizz whilst offering lounges and a Club service as well as the meeting the locos on fares.It's fundamentally schizophrenic IMHO, all things to all men and a round peg in a square hole. Even optimistic growth shows them as a bit player vs. easyJet.
You want real measurable growth? Go single cabin service and rebrand as a real standalone business unit to some akin to the old "British Airtours", under the BA branding umbrella but distinct from the network carrier at LHR. That's got a medium term chance, a go-fly for the 202s.
You want somewhere for LHR business travellers to redeem Avios on family holidays in the same way they've always done? Then keep trying that same thing that has't ever generated consistent profits or consistent growth since.
Since 1992, some three decades ago, BA have said annually that staff at LGW need to accept pay cuts as they can't make money. I think the problem always has been how BA's finance team allocate costs and revenue. I think the core issue is Euroflyer whilst technically a stand alone, is actually more like arms length BA mainline. It's really just BA (intentional from a branding perspective) but chaotic from an operational standpoint.
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Creative accounting in order to drive down costs. If the operation didn’t make money, they wouldn’t bother. Club and lounges is what differentiates them from the competition at LGW.
As for the club seats ex-LGW, more likely they’re revenue heavy with people on BA holidays whilst the double tier point promotion is ongoing.
As for the club seats ex-LGW, more likely they’re revenue heavy with people on BA holidays whilst the double tier point promotion is ongoing.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Head for Points has transcribed comments by BAEF CEO Tom Stoddart at a recent Aviation Club UK event:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2023/09/14/tom-stoddart-interview/
https://www.headforpoints.com/2023/09/14/tom-stoddart-interview/
BA has never really made money shorthaul at Gatwick, with only one year in the last 15 delivering profits. The Gatwick leisure market is ruthless with fiercely competed yields requiring razor sharp attention to cost, something BA simply wasn’t equipped to do under the previous management structure. That meant it was difficult for BA to ever make a profit out of short haul at Gatwick.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well of course BA bought cityFlyer express which made profits on short haul at LGW due to, among other things, “razor sharp attention to costs” and, as soon as Bob Ayling left, proceeded to f it up royally partly due, IMHO, having a management who wouldn’t stand up to the unions.
If they haven't made money in 15 years, does that imply they last turned a profit in 2008? Or was that year zero for some reason? Bottom line is unless they make enough money to tie up 21 aircraft, they'll fold what they need to back into mainline. Do we reckon that this FY will be in the black? We've been here before so many times. The line that caught my eye was they were inspired by Iberia Express. An AOC expressly set up to destroy union power and wages at Iberia, basically it exists as a new start clean sheet so that IAG could move anything from Iberia mainline to Express over time and wind up the original after an extended period. The only difference here is that I2 was also based alongside Iberia at home base whereas Euroflyer is at Gatters. However, there remains NO reason why LGW long haul couldn't go over to Euroflyer over time. And even allow Euroflyer short haul to fly W patterns into LHR. Careful what you cheer for....
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: London
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA Euroflyer was certainly inspired by Iberia Express. IAG CEO Luis Gallego was CEO of I2. Though, I believe the size of I2 is capped when an industrial dispute at Iberia went to binding arbitration.
There is an irony in that LGW went to mixed short / long haul flying for cabin crew around 2006 which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at LHR. And now LGW has gone back to separate short and long haul crews.
Before BA Euroflyer, BA ran the slide rule over LGW costs and were adamant that its cost base was in line with the market. When does the need to drive down costs to be "flexible and competitive" ever stop?
There is an irony in that LGW went to mixed short / long haul flying for cabin crew around 2006 which was a precursor to Mixed Fleet at LHR. And now LGW has gone back to separate short and long haul crews.
Before BA Euroflyer, BA ran the slide rule over LGW costs and were adamant that its cost base was in line with the market. When does the need to drive down costs to be "flexible and competitive" ever stop?
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: In the sky
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
