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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 09:51
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EY9731 B777 due into Doncaster tonight (22nd) 21;30 - 2 hour turnaround and back to Abu Dhabi.
With so many flights now grounded (again) is there a spare stand even if it did/had scheduled into Manchester?
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 10:06
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Etihad had a B777F at DSA in October, so it would seem that they might not be unhappy about flying there.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 11:19
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SWBKCB

NCL used to have its own in house equipment for main deck cargo, but sold it, to Doncaster
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 11:21
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Doncaster handled Etihad B777F's on 6th, 8th and 10th of October
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 11:36
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GrahamK

Was that not Teesside - can't remember any maindeck widebody freighters (been at least one that was belly cargo only). Anyway, apart from turboprops, pure cargo flights are not regular in NCL.

Also interesting are those airports not mentioned - the likes of Bristol, Edinburgh and Glasgow are probably more similar to Manchester than those listed.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 14:50
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It is a few years since I was involved directly in the Freighter business but I believe that only airports with Main Deck loading equipment are
Prestwick, Doncaster, East Midlands, Stansted and Heathrow. Also you need 2 units in case one goes u/s or you have a long/overhanging pallet that may
that may require two units. Cost currently for two units in excess of 600K,.without other ground equipment tail stands etc.,

Bean counters will not authorise expenditure unless proven requirement i.e minimum weekly schedule not a one off flight sometime

I have heard the arguments what comes first the chicken or the egg and speculate to accumulate. Each can be right or wrong.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 16:07
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Wools.
A voice of reason.

MAN used to have a few scheduled 747s. Air Hong Kong/Dragoair, Air China etc. A few combis too (PIA/BA) They stopped coming to MAN. Therefore equipment no longer required. That is it I'm afraid.

Condolences to the AA staff who have been shown the door. Sad news inded.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 17:26
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Thank you TURIN for your reasoned response.

A question for you or others with the internal knowledge - if handling agents have "spare" unused equipment, at another base, how easy/economical would it be to reposition it to another airport? I appreciate that this is only part of the logistical problem (you need to take into account staffing etc) but it's a starting point to hopefully move the discussion forward without creating bad rhetoric.

Finally can I take this opportunity to wish everyone a very peaceful, if very different, Christmas.

​​​
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 18:45
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Ground Support Equipment (GSE) from the major world Ground Handling Companies do move their GSE quite often. This is to either meet the requirements at a particular airport/for fleet replacement or for deep maintenance. This often occurs not only with in the UK but also between Ireland and other parts of Europe. (Brexit warning re import duties and taxes notwithstanding perhaps).
Generally there are two main pieces of equipment that are not easy to move around. Main Deck Hi-loaders and some types of towbarless push back tractors both due width. These normally are classed as wide loads and need careful planning and approval from police etc., before moving. Hi-loaders in particular are best not moved around as they are very sensitive to any kind of unusual movement. They can take some time in my experience in the past to settle down after a major road journey.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 20:45
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Therefore equipment no longer required. That is it I'm afraid.
But this is not the full story. A runway is "no longer required" if an airport tells all its airline customers to go away. A terminal is "no longer required" if an airport tells its passengers to go away.

MAG apparently switch-sells MAN's whole-plane cargo leads to EMA and STN. And if they don't go there they're likely to be told they can't come to MAN anyway.

There IS proven demand for whole-plane cargo at MAN. For example, do you recall when CargoLogicAir announced plans to base a B747 freighter at MAN (but then the base "mysteriously" materialised at STN instead)? The airport has to accept the business in order for the support equipment to be required. That is where the real shortfall is, and it isn't good enough. 'The airport which likes to say NO' is saying ...

Earlier this year, THG indicated that they intended to set up a cargo airline at MAN but all has gone quiet with them. Not sure what is happening there. But their products certainly need to reach global markets. As do those associated with many other NW importers / exporters. This is still a manufacturing region.
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Old 22nd Dec 2020, 22:16
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I have no knowledge of airlines being told to go away.
Evidence please.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 00:26
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You could start by reading back on this thread and its recent predecessor. The process is known as "switch-selling".
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 00:33
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That is not evidence. It's hearsay.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 03:07
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Well I'm guessing that nobody is about to post privileged documentation on a public forum, so you'll have to make do with outcomes which are there to see for those who care to look.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 09:29
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Festive Joke.

Another of Manchesters largest customers are now starting regular service to Doncaster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...ng-port-logjam

Lufthansa 777Fs due 1300

They asked Manchester

"but there was no room at the inn".

Can somone remind me how much the shareholders gave to Manchester to protect jobs and routes. Oh yes 350m
well at least its protecting jobs in South Yorkshire.

It was actually referenced only yesterday in the Strait Times that these flights would be starting to Heathrow, Manchester and Edinburgh. It appears that the cargo manager at Doncaster has proactively hunted down the opportunity.

Top work 👍

Last edited by Navpi; 23rd Dec 2020 at 10:54.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 12:17
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At one point CX/KA had 13 747 freighters a week into MAN, when CX acquired KA the KA freighters were absorbed into CX, then down to 7 or 8 freighters a week. Then with the reintroduction of pax fits into MAN with the 777 it was deemed unviable to operate freighters only into MAN as the 777 was capable of carrying tonnes of belly freight. The freighters were redeployed to north and South America. Freighter base at MAN was closed, with 1 or sometimes 2 freighters a week into LHR for large/oversized cargo. The decision had nothing to do with MAG's capability at that time, purely commercial/logistical from the airlines point. Did a few F1 charters out of EMA, and the odd horse movement out of DUB.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 12:55
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Regarding the overall picture to point out once again the "shareholders" did not give 350M to Manchester it is provision for ALL three MAG Airports STN/EMA & MAN.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 13:56
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In truth the 260m for MAG will cover the gap in local authority finances caused by non-payment of dividends for the next couple of years.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 14:42
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Looking at the most recent examples on here of cargo flights supposedly being turned away, it seems that even if the airlines were ushered in the direction of EMA, that policy also failed miserably as they ended up at non-MAG airports anyway such as DSA and LPL (in the case of the RAM Cargo flight). So on that basis not only is MAN losing out due to having inadequate resources, MAG lost the business as well!

With the cargo sector booming at present I think highlighting this inability to both handle cargo traffic at MAN and attract cargo business is perfectly valid and questioning the effectiveness of that department has to be something that management at MAG needs to seriously look at as Navpi and Ozzy have argued.
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Old 23rd Dec 2020, 16:27
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Many thanks Mr A Tis, yes referenced earlier.

Helmut Torksdorf the Lufthansa comms manager only suggested yesterday that they could operate pure cargo 777F to Heathrow, Edinburgh and Manchester.

Probably perplexed that Manchester is obviously not pure cargo capable despite the clear message on the MAN website that we have 1000 professionals managing this.
It feels more like Pte Godfrey is running the show

"Manchester Airport is a global gateway to the North of England. Manchester Airport currently handles around 100,000 tonnes of import and export freight and mail annually, connecting the North of England to 160 destinations around the world.

Manchester Airport's cargo facility, the World Freight Terminal, is a community of more than 1,000 professionals managing freight-only aircraft as well as consignments that arrive or depart in the holds of passenger aircraft. Having grown to meet the increasing demands on importers and exporters across the country, our 24/7 service operates from 60,000 square metres of warehouse and office space for a comprehensive air cargo support system.

Manchester's largest cargo markets are the Far East, North America and the Middle East, with daily flights connecting to all of these"

Last edited by Navpi; 23rd Dec 2020 at 16:39.
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