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Virgin Atlantic

Old 20th Apr 2020, 18:25
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HH6702 View Post
Big difference between Easyjet and virgin

1 makes a big profit 1 doesn’t
One was about to turn a profit. For the first time in a while, thanks to DL strategy. And further profits next year.

Also ones pan European. Ones U.K. Why doesn’t easyJet also go to the European Union for money?

As a tax payer, I’d rather pay a UK carrier, of an owner that’s not only donated $250million, and Necker Island, then another airline that’s got an arrogant pig of a major shareholder, who’s donated sweet FA, not paid his dividend back, and publicly throws a tantrum. I know who’s side I’m on and it isn’t the arrogant.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 18:35
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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One sued the NHS One didn't
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:16
  #303 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MaxPowerSet View Post
One sued the NHS One didn't
This was about the procurement of NHS contracts under a different government in 2006. Virgin highlighted the serious flaws in the process, as did 7 other NHS trusts/local authorities. The commissioners said they would investigate, which they failed to do signing off the contract they awarded under a flawed process. This went into settlement of money due to the failure of an investigation that Virgin highlighted. Virgin highlighted a serious flaw in the process, which NHS trusts/local authorities had also highlighted, but because they are private obviously it was brought about like this by the government which wanted the attention on a private company sueing the NHS rather then highlighting attention to the failings of the process.

Find it laughable that some people, not saying you did by the way, but some people voted for a Conservative Government back in December to continue the privatisation of our NHS and yet happily see Virgin go under even though it employs near on 9,000 staff and probably brings a heft tax income to HMRC. Vote Conservative let them privatise the NHS.

As i said up there - why should one get preferential treatment (easy) when the majority shareholder has donated sweet FA and taken a lovely dividend yet we seem heel bent on letting Virgin go, despite $250mil donation, re-morgate of slots etc. What have easy done to deserve £600million loan?
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 06:49
  #304 (permalink)  
 
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As i said up there - why should one get preferential treatment (easy) when the majority shareholder has donated sweet FA and taken a lovely dividend yet we seem heel bent on letting Virgin go, despite $250mil donation, re-morgate of slots etc. What have easy done to deserve £600million loan?
According to press reports, passed the criteria imposed by the Treasury in terms of seeking alternative funding while Virgin haven't. The Treasury won't be giving such sums out without following a process.

All this nonsense about Neckar island, dividends, scoundrels etc is just fluff - shiny beads and mirriors to distract the press. Fit the criteria and you'll be fine - looks like Virgin either don't meet the criteria or don't understand the process, so have decided to go public and make it a political decision.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:14
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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They would have a better case for rescue if they were normally profitable which they are not. They have been making loses for years which is why the shareholders are reluctant to put more money into the airline.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:20
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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This is basically you phoning up for a loan/credit card/overdraft, being told computer says "No", and you going "but my mate got one, I want to speak to your supervisor" on a bigger stage...
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:30
  #307 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
They would have a better case for rescue if they were normally profitable which they are not. They have been making loses for years which is why the shareholders are reluctant to put more money into the airline.
If I remember correctly they were due to be profitable this year and now have a younger and more fuel efficient fleet which would stand them in good stead for the future. VS problem is that they as an airline aren't important to London compared to Easyjet and BA and their major shareholder isn't liked hence why the government won't exactly bend over backwards to help them. The people I feel sorry for are the staff who must be seriously wondering if they will have a job to go back to while watching social media relish the thought of Virgin Atlantic going bust just to stick the middle finger up to Branson.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:35
  #308 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
They would have a better case for rescue if they were normally profitable which they are not. They have been making loses for years which is why the shareholders are reluctant to put more money into the airline.
Thats on an ‘operating’ level, it doesn’t take account of assets etc - there is clearly some considerable value or it would have ceased years ago. Admittedly that is based on pre-Covid slot worth although much of the operation must be worthwhile, the holidays side of it must do OK or they wouldn’t open new shops, set up at MAN or retain LGW.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:38
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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VS problem is that they as an airline aren't important to London compared to Easyjet and BA and their major shareholder isn't liked hence why the government won't exactly bend over backwards to help them.
This obtaining government funding, not a soap opera
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:11
  #310 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
This is basically you phoning up for a loan/credit card/overdraft, being told computer says "No", and you going "but my mate got one, I want to speak to your supervisor" on a bigger stage...

perfectly explained brilliantly!!!!!!!
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:15
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
This obtaining government funding, not a soap opera
Not a soap opera but politics.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:36
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45 View Post
The people I feel sorry for are the staff who must be seriously wondering if they will have a job to go back to while watching social media relish the thought of Virgin Atlantic going bust just to stick the middle finger up to Branson.
Agreed. It was sickening to read that some staff were getting direct abuse on social media for linking the statement SRB released yesterday. What is wrong with some people?
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:46
  #313 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
They have been losing money for years so the first question is did Manchester make a profit for Virgin?
Focusing on the last 5 years specifically given the changes that have been made since Mr Ridgway stepped down, VS made a profit in 2014/15/16 and made a loss in 2017 and 2018 (I suspect VS were burnt by Brexit weakening GBP against USD given their reliance on the US market and certain costs being in USD). 2019 is yet to be published, but for what it's worth there was a plan to restore to profitability by 2021 which, given recent events, is going to be difficult to achieve this year alone and clearly needs redoing.

As for MAN, they've been there since the mid-90's, have grown there presence over the last 5 years in particular and a Clubhouse is on the way this year. Given routes were axed under Craig Kreeger but MAN remain unscathed except for Little Red and saw more routes added, I would suggest MAN was profitable and it would be interesting to see whether the impending withdrawal of the 747's and the introduction of A330neo's and A350's on MAN routes would have a positive impact on the profitability of the MAN operation. I know loadings doesn't necessarily reflect profitability, but every time in the last 6 years I've flown on a VS long-haul flight to/from MAN it's been very well loaded - the lowest loadings was around 85%, the highest was only a single figure of seats being free on the whole aircraft.

If VS survives, I'm curious to see what shape or form the MAN operation will look like.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:38
  #314 (permalink)  
 
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If VS survive what’s the chances they pull out of Heathrow completely and move all ops to Manchester??

sell or lease all the slots they hold at Heathrow out to other airlines
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:39
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by HH6702 View Post
If VS survive what’s the chances they pull out of Heathrow completely and move all ops to Manchester??

sell or least all the slots they hold at Heathrow out to other airlines
Low.... more chance of pulling from LGW they’ve already moved a few routes to LHR and some could go to MAN, or the extra capacity.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 13:20
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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It's SRB who is now playing politics - Treasury will have devised a set of economic criteria which will be applied to the company to determine whether they are eligible. Nothing to do with personalities etc

Easyjet have met the criteria and Wizz are now saying they have also

Flight - Wizz Air qualifies for UK coronavirus fund support
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 13:28
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LBAflyer22 View Post
One was about to turn a profit. For the first time in a while, thanks to DL strategy. And further profits next year.

Also ones pan European. Ones U.K. Why doesn’t easyJet also go to the European Union for money?

As a tax payer, I’d rather pay a UK carrier, of an owner that’s not only donated $250million, and Necker Island, then another airline that’s got an arrogant pig of a major shareholder, who’s donated sweet FA, not paid his dividend back, and publicly throws a tantrum. I know who’s side I’m on and it isn’t the arrogant.
It is a matter of an opinion really. I cannot say that the majority of the U.K. would agree. If Branson wasn’t perceived to be such a tax dodger I think there would be no issues. Other airlines are a lot stronger financially too which will be a strong consideration.

If they’re rarely posting profits, they cannot gain any capital off their shareholders, then how can you expect them to be bailed out to the tune of £500/£600M? Nobody knows how long this will continue for too and this could easily be the first time they go to the “well” for taxpayers cash.

As someone has put it earlier in the thread, would you expect a bank to continue to bankroll you just because someone else has been funded? The answer is a clear no. EasyJet and Virgin are poles apart in regards to profitability and ability to repay this huge sum of money. EasyJet must have a substantially better credit rating than Virgin one could imagine.

However, people need to stop falling for the Branson should fund it as it is complete BS. He is a billionaire by assets and surely has no where near that amount of readily available capital. Could DL seek funding from the American government though? They’re the majority shareholder.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 13:46
  #318 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JonnyH View Post

If they’re rarely posting profits, they cannot gain any capital off their shareholders, then how can you expect them to be bailed out to the tune of £500/£600M? Nobody knows how long this will continue for too and this could easily be the first time they go to the “well” for taxpayers.
Surely the extraordinary circumstances of the global pandemic and consequent travel bans by various governments needs to be taken into account for all airlines? These are not normal trading conditions so why should it just be determined on whether they were profitable or not before. The US government put in place money for the aviation industry to help them survive this crisis yet the UK government doesn't seem to be doing anything like that and people in general seem quite happy to see airlines fall one by one if necessary and some seem to relish the prospect of certain airlines going bust.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:03
  #319 (permalink)  
 
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These are not normal trading conditions so why should it just be determined on whether they were profitable or not before.
It gives an indication of whether you are likely to get anything back!

There needs to be some sort of objective criteria for the use of Government money - you don't just get what you ask for.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:23
  #320 (permalink)  
 
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The USA covers a vast geographical area, and their public transport system on the ground isn't able to carry people between cities - airlines *are* the domestic public transport system. In the USA, the airlines function almost as a utility to the masses and almost as a way of keeping the country together. The likes of American, Delta, United, SouthWest, Alaska and JetBlue are strategically important to the USA

VS gave up flying domestic routes almost 5 years ago and show no sign of restarting them. Maybe if VS were flying a significant number of short-haul routes to mainland Europe, one could argue they were a public utility. If VS want public cash while struggling to make a profit (i.e. dubious that they will be able to repay the taxpayer loan), there needs to be a strategic benefit to the UK
A taxpayer subsidy for an airline that devotes a significant amount of its fleet to taking people to Disneyworld and Carribbean beaches, especially when demand for these destinations is likely to be lower than in the past (i.e. lower yield, lower load factor, lower revenues), is not a priority
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