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Loganair-2

Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:02
  #1141 (permalink)  
 
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Let me explain:

Loganair - Scotlands airline and should by definition ‘focus’ on connecting the Highlands and Islands via a hub/spoke network where commercially viable along with PSO supported routes where the Scottish Exec requires them to be provided. (Barra - et al) Further it could be a carrier of choice for connecting major cities from INV | GLA | EDI - LHR/LGW/MAN/BHX throughout the UK where commercial pressures allow it be profitable and it is not in direct competition with either a Green airline or Orange one... if its not commercially viable - don’t do it.

Twotter operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - profitable company currently with NO debt
BN 2 Operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - as above
Air Task - UK based - F406 & Islander aircraft available
Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!

With current load factors in the single digit for most routes - you can fly most of what you need including cargo / air ambulance with either the Twotter or the BN2 - if you need anything bigger then you can use the ATR or call the crabs!

HIAL has shut ALL airports currently other than for essential flights / PSO - air ambulance and military.

Loganair should also tap up CNR/Enquest/Taqa for some coin based on them winning a new 5 year crew change IAC contract from ABZ to LSI as well as the owners of the crew change contract they are currently flying for the next month flying to Riga and Gdansk..

Cutting out the white noise and focusing on the facts reveals many paths that could be taken to provide connectivity to Scotland.

Cheers
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:15
  #1142 (permalink)  
 
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Allowing Loganair to fail would be THE most Thatcherite action Nippy has ever done.

“No wider commercial benefit”
”Survival of the fittest”
”Open to any competitor”

The Hell she’d get would be political dynamite and not worth it. This is a government that still keeps the Terminal at PIK open even though it’s high costs harm the wider business.

There’s not a lot of choice for HIAL if you want a reliable, frequent service, the incumbent wins hands down. The wider economic impact might suggest the jets would have to go anyway, but core Loganair have been around since the 1960s, no one is better at doing the job they do. Ask Flybe.

The whole ethos in the UK is public-private partnership, no one will be building a government owned Scottish airline. They do not want one on the balance sheet, that’s not going to happen, that’s a very 1970s idea and is open to much higher costs and inefficiency, as well as empire building and waste. Loganair fly old jets and ATRs, the government would be going for new builds, just like Aurigny has done for the THIRD iteration of new ATRs. For the price of saving Loganair for future commercial trading, that’s small change by comparison.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:52
  #1143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
Let me explain:

Loganair - Scotlands airline and should by definition Ďfocusí on connecting the Highlands and Islands via a hub/spoke network where commercially viable along with PSO supported routes where the Scottish Exec requires them to be provided. (Barra - et al) Further it could be a carrier of choice for connecting major cities from INV | GLA | EDI - LHR/LGW/MAN/BHX throughout the UK where commercial pressures allow it be profitable and it is not in direct competition with either a Green airline or Orange one... if its not commercially viable - donít do it.

Twotter operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - profitable company currently with NO debt
BN 2 Operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - as above
Air Task - UK based - F406 & Islander aircraft available
Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!

With current load factors in the single digit for most routes - you can fly most of what you need including cargo / air ambulance with either the Twotter or the BN2 - if you need anything bigger then you can use the ATR or call the crabs!

HIAL has shut ALL airports currently other than for essential flights / PSO - air ambulance and military.

Loganair should also tap up CNR/Enquest/Taqa for some coin based on them winning a new 5 year crew change IAC contract from ABZ to LSI as well as the owners of the crew change contract they are currently flying for the next month flying to Riga and Gdansk..

Cutting out the white noise and focusing on the facts reveals many paths that could be taken to provide connectivity to Scotland.

Cheers
I'd love to see your CV for sure, but it really does look like we should all bow to your superior knowledge of our industry gained on google, days at a perimeter fence and aviation websites by the looks of it.
Your assumption about how fiscal policy works in a Crown Dependency is enough for me, I struggled to understand it and I've lived on two of them for many years.
Try and keep the fantasy to a minimum, the Sun are always on PPRuNe looking for a story!
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 10:36
  #1144 (permalink)  
 
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Loganair is a name - it's the people employed that make the airline and many of them have changed since 1960, if they have excellent leadership who can practice empathy with sound business acumen then it's relatively easy to make a go of it and succeed, but when you are mere puppets on a string to a higher master then you are in no different place to any other airline no matter what your heritage.... Any savvy new operator would have rich pickings of excellent staff if anything happened, and it would be easy to create Tartan airways powered by the old Loganair staff!

Running airlines is all about economics, you must operate the right aircraft on the right route for the right price and ensure you focus on the customer who is the only one that will decide your future...whilst making it unattractive to the competition.

Let's face reality... In the current C-19 situation you will be re-starting any airline from 'Zero' unless you are a freight dog in which case make hay and enjoy the uncluttered frequencies!

So if you are re-starting from zero then you may as well rethink the fleet and operating model and make it fit for purpose for its required audience which is all the Scottish people including the Highlands and Islands.

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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:06
  #1145 (permalink)  
DB6
 
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I think tallaonejuliet may have a point.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:29
  #1146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DB6 View Post
I think tallaonejuliet may have a point.
Wow, I'm honoured for the compliment - thanks!
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:39
  #1147 (permalink)  
 
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Some people are talking as though there is an extensive non-Scottish network, as far as I can tell there isnít. Just a few routes from Newcastle including a couple of very recent additions post-flybe and the PSO from Derry-London along with (for now) the hospital transfer from IOM to Liverpool and the BA service from IOM to London. Whether the jets are the optimal equipment is another matter but connecting Scotland with the English regions, Cardiff and Belfast is also surely a priority worthy of support (and politically important for both U.K. and Scottish government).
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 12:12
  #1148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Kingdom
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Being Realistic

Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
Let me explain:

Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!
You might want to brush up on your knowledge of the Bailiwicks and the politics involved. A Crown dependancy yes, but certainly not part of the United Kingdom. Whilst the U.K could ask for help from the States and Aurigny, the likely hood of them being keen would be low, why would the proudly Guernsey based national airline be interested in operating anywhere else, lets face it they're not even bothered about Jersey or even their namesake Alderney! You hit the nail on the head to, they won't go bankrupt any time soon, they also dont need to operate any of there aircraft or make a profit (the Dornier for instance), no doubt the entire fleet will sit comfortably in Guernsey until a time they're needed to operate for Guernsey again. Dont forget Aurigny are financed by the taxes of hardworking Guernsey people, im sure they wouldn't be too keen on their hard earned money financing a life line for the IOM.

Loganair offer a fantastic product and like any other airline in the U.K will need support to overcome the challenges that are now faced by the unprecedented situation we face ourselves in due to COVID. Just like Eastern and Blue Islands, Loganair have adapted to try and mitigate the effects, prior to this all three airlines again adapted very quickly to try and fill the void left by Flybe. It will be a tough few months and the forms of the airlines that come out the other side will be different, but we will need Loganair, Eastern and Blue Islands post COVID to connect the regions, the work will be there, people will need to travel. Loganair and Blue Islands offer services others dont (granted Aurigny does for Guernsey but ONLY Guernsey). Rather than attacking them all, everyone should be rallying behind these companies and hoping for positive outcomes as if all went horribly wrong realistically who would step in and cover everything? The world is a very different place now!
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 12:33
  #1149 (permalink)  
 
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The wider economic impact might suggest the jets would have to go anyway
Plenty of only slightly slower, slightly younger and more economical Q400's still sitting around at various UK regional airports at the moment?
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:31
  #1150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
....an airline (flying) that has never really made any money

Please tell me the bits of the post that you think are wrong... Iím intrigued!
That bit for a start.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 15:11
  #1151 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tallaonejuliet View Post
I'd love to see your CV for sure, but it really does look like we should all bow to your superior knowledge of our industry gained on google, days at a perimeter fence and aviation websites by the looks of it.
Your assumption about how fiscal policy works in a Crown Dependency is enough for me, I struggled to understand it and I've lived on two of them for many years.
Try and keep the fantasy to a minimum, the Sun are always on PPRuNe looking for a story!
There is no superior knowledge, and I'm too short to be a spotter but when an airline is privately owned, sometimes instead of just hanging on hope you need to look at the viable alternatives, having lived in the Bailiwicks there is nothing the States would love more than to get an ACMI / Charter or fully underwritten call to keep all of their aircraft, crews and staff busy if UK Gov PLC is guaranteeing the risk, as they were due to make a circa £19 mill loss this year anyway... but it changes nothing for them as the States will just keep ploughing coin in whether they fly or sunbathe...... You carry on looking through your rose-tinted specs that Loganair is immune from failure in this current global situation. Stay well

Wanna - Yes well aware of how it works - but HMG UK PLC has a defined financial mechanism for working with the Crown Dependencies. So when dealing with such a toxic issue as airlines and most being privately owned - the appetite for risk is mitigated when there is one, where no UK taxpayer is going to be able to blame them or hold them to account for propping up a 'private airline' that is owned by wealthy individuals who no longer want to make themselves poor by owning it now that it is no longer making money and they failed to save for a rainy day!

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Old 21st Apr 2020, 15:46
  #1152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
Let me explain:

Loganair - Scotlands airline and should by definition ‘focus’ on connecting the Highlands and Islands via a hub/spoke network where commercially viable along with PSO supported routes where the Scottish Exec requires them to be provided. (Barra - et al) Further it could be a carrier of choice for connecting major cities from INV | GLA | EDI - LHR/LGW/MAN/BHX throughout the UK where commercial pressures allow it be profitable and it is not in direct competition with either a Green airline or Orange one... if its not commercially viable - don’t do it.

Twotter operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - profitable company currently with NO debt
BN 2 Operators - IoSSC - spare aircraft - UK based - crews and aircraft available - as above
Air Task - UK based - F406 & Islander aircraft available
Aurigny - Surplus ATR 600 aircraft plus an E-jet - 100% owned by the states of Guernsey which is a crown dependency of the UK - aka if UK PLC needs to borrow or build an airline to support regional connectivity in the UK it can be achieved without needing to support private companies that are historically loss making or operate aircraft that are the wrong type. It can write an IOU to Guernsey and achieve exactly what it wants to achieve. Aurigny will not be going bust any time soon - Blue Islands will no doubt disappear but Aurigny is 100% govt owned!

With current load factors in the single digit for most routes - you can fly most of what you need including cargo / air ambulance with either the Twotter or the BN2 - if you need anything bigger then you can use the ATR or call the crabs!

HIAL has shut ALL airports currently other than for essential flights / PSO - air ambulance and military.

Loganair should also tap up CNR/Enquest/Taqa for some coin based on them winning a new 5 year crew change IAC contract from ABZ to LSI as well as the owners of the crew change contract they are currently flying for the next month flying to Riga and Gdansk..

Cutting out the white noise and focusing on the facts reveals many paths that could be taken to provide connectivity to Scotland.

Cheers
'Scotland's Airline' is a tagline. While GLA-Stornoway is obviously a lifeline service, NCL-SOU/EXT and IOM-LPL are just as vital as, for example, GLA-MAN.

Last edited by jensdad; 21st Apr 2020 at 16:07. Reason: balance
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:05
  #1153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
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Even though it doesn't have anything beyond the standard quote from the company, this news report strongly hints it's the same loan support that is being sought by Loganair as that for any other mid-size business in any sector now that the Government has extended the programme.

Assuming this is a fair summary, it moves the question of support for Loganair onto the same footing as that for easyJet, Wizz or a chain of pubs or retail outlets - through an approved Government scheme open to any eligible company in any sector of the economy.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:11
  #1154 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Saabdriver1 - it looks like this all stems from a poorly written article using the term "bailout" which suggested that LM were looking for special treatment.

I suspect Shetland News have a firmer grip on the subject than Sky...
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:13
  #1155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Saabdriver1 View Post
Even though it doesn't have anything beyond the standard quote from the company, this news report strongly hints it's the same loan support that is being sought by Loganair as that for any other mid-size business in any sector now that the Government has extended the programme.

Assuming this is a fair summary, it moves the question of support for Loganair onto the same footing as that for easyJet, Wizz or a chain of pubs or retail outlets - through an approved Government scheme open to any eligible company in any sector of the economy.
Going by their books - however accurate, this is what PwC will be doing - they wonít be able to service any substantial level of debt.

In two minds - if they do, I hope they do it sensibly to ensure their long term survival. But if they get greedy, theyíll only find themselves in a more difficult situation down the line. Iím not convinced any level of debt they could access - with minimal assets on the books - will be enough.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:27
  #1156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jetscream 32 View Post
You carry on looking through your rose-tinted specs that Loganair is immune from failure in this current global situation. Stay well
One thing I'm not, is that of being naive to failure.
Three decades of take overs, mergers, closures, redundancy and relocations has taught me a thing or two.
Try and look at life with a little more positivity fella, life is hard enough at present without your predictions of doom, gloom and misery in every post.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:34
  #1157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
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There's clearly not a lot of point in trying to reason with someone who has their own agenda and is able to be negative about everything!

What no-one also knows is any level of involvement that the shareholders might be putting up at this stage. I'd presume there has to be some, which could change all of the prejudices above...
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:43
  #1158 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Saabdriver1 View Post
There's clearly not a lot of point in trying to reason with someone who has their own agenda and is able to be negative about everything!

What no-one also knows is any level of involvement that the shareholders might be putting up at this stage. I'd presume there has to be some, which could change all of the prejudices above...
For clarity: no other agenda.

But you have to view these things without emotion.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 17:07
  #1159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JSCL View Post
For clarity: no other agenda.

But you have to view these things without emotion.
Like and concur
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 17:33
  #1160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by jensdad View Post
'Scotland's Airline' is a tagline. While GLA-Stornoway is obviously a lifeline service, NCL-SOU/EXT and IOM-LPL are just as vital as, for example, GLA-MAN.
Poor example with IOM-LPL - the route is underwritten by the Manx government for NHS patient transfers.
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