Flybe-9
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
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I know we have been through this before but Welsh Government lent money to Cardiff Airport. Cardiff Airport used the money to subsidise Flybe. Cardiff Airport expects to make enough money at the back end of the deal to repay the Government. If any of that goes wrong there will be a huge political row and accusations of state subsidy and unfair competition. It wouldn’t be the same as a private sector airport shrugging their shoulders and regretting their bad call.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
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If you don’t believe these ten year deals are enforceable, can I point you in the direction of Durham Tees Valley Ltd. v. Bmibaby Ltd.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Outer London
Age: 43
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Thank goodness you’re not in charge as I’d have thought SOU was their cash cow and EXT is a safe haven with a captive audience, hence at the very back of the queue for closure.
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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I'm sure Flybe could pull out at anytime they wanted but why would they as both airports have been willing to subsidise or help those bases so why would they pull out?
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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I know we have been through this before but Welsh Government lent money to Cardiff Airport. Cardiff Airport used the money to subsidise Flybe. Cardiff Airport expects to make enough money at the back end of the deal to repay the Government. If any of that goes wrong there will be a huge political row and accusations of state subsidy and unfair competition. It wouldn’t be the same as a private sector airport shrugging their shoulders and regretting their bad call.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cardiff
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CWL is still growing but I think there's room for improvement. Lets not forget this is an average analysis of fare price. Some routes may be performing much better than others. It was an E195 base until earlier this year where it's not 3x E75, so probably more empty seats flying around until those changes. That being said there's a number of domestic routes from CWL that could be downgraded to the Dash. Would a mixed crew base of Embraer and Dash actually make it more efficient?
What we also don't know is if Project Blackbird had payments up front or payments over the term of the contract. I would suspect the latter, meaning continual income from the base over the period of the contract. If it was up front then BE could take the money and run.
I would've thought a consolidation of poor performing routes over base closures would be better. BE could be making good money off some routes which may not be able to be operated if a base closes completely.
What we also don't know is if Project Blackbird had payments up front or payments over the term of the contract. I would suspect the latter, meaning continual income from the base over the period of the contract. If it was up front then BE could take the money and run.
I would've thought a consolidation of poor performing routes over base closures would be better. BE could be making good money off some routes which may not be able to be operated if a base closes completely.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Europe
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That aside, the interesting questions are:
1) Did bmibaby operate until 2014 out of DTV because of that contract?
2) Did DTV recuperate the monies paid to bmibaby?
3) Has DTV been able to lure lots of new airlines to its shores after having sued bmibaby as a matter of principle?
Long story short, if Flybe needs to dump CWL or DSA in order to survive, they will happily do so and suggest the airports to sue them and find out if Flybe will be around long enough to see the end of court proceedings and debt collection - and if so, if that will or will not be the final straw for BE. In the meantime, no more flights from the only remaining regional airline in the UK from anywhere to these airports. It is really not so much a legal as a practical issue for all parties involved.
I would've thought a consolidation of poor performing routes over base closures would be better. BE could be making good money off some routes which may not be able to be operated if a base closes completely.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
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CWL is still growing but I think there's room for improvement. Lets not forget this is an average analysis of fare price. Some routes may be performing much better than others. It was an E195 base until earlier this year where it's not 3x E75, so probably more empty seats flying around until those changes. That being said there's a number of domestic routes from CWL that could be downgraded to the Dash. Would a mixed crew base of Embraer and Dash actually make it more efficient?
What we also don't know is if Project Blackbird had payments up front or payments over the term of the contract. I would suspect the latter, meaning continual income from the base over the period of the contract. If it was up front then BE could take the money and run.
I would've thought a consolidation of poor performing routes over base closures would be better. BE could be making good money off some routes which may not be able to be operated if a base closes completely.
What we also don't know is if Project Blackbird had payments up front or payments over the term of the contract. I would suspect the latter, meaning continual income from the base over the period of the contract. If it was up front then BE could take the money and run.
I would've thought a consolidation of poor performing routes over base closures would be better. BE could be making good money off some routes which may not be able to be operated if a base closes completely.
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Bedworth
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I see you point but I think that they would focus on their biggest bases. I would probably close EMA and then cancel the routes out of LHR if they were an option
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
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Have you read the decision? It is not about whether or not such deals are enforceable, it is about whether the wording of the contract in question constituted a right to operate or a duty to operate. If Flybe has learned anything from that decision, it will have the correct wording in place.
That aside, the interesting questions are:
1) Did bmibaby operate until 2014 out of DTV because of that contract?
2) Did DTV recuperate the monies paid to bmibaby?
3) Has DTV been able to lure lots of new airlines to its shores after having sued bmibaby as a matter of principle?
Long story short, if Flybe needs to dump CWL or DSA in order to survive, they will happily do so and suggest the airports to sue them and find out if Flybe will be around long enough to see the end of court proceedings and debt collection - and if so, if that will or will not be the final straw for BE. In the meantime, no more flights from the only remaining regional airline in the UK from anywhere to these airports. It is really not so much a legal as a practical issue for all parties involved.
Base closures do not necessarily mean the end of operations at the airport in question.
That aside, the interesting questions are:
1) Did bmibaby operate until 2014 out of DTV because of that contract?
2) Did DTV recuperate the monies paid to bmibaby?
3) Has DTV been able to lure lots of new airlines to its shores after having sued bmibaby as a matter of principle?
Long story short, if Flybe needs to dump CWL or DSA in order to survive, they will happily do so and suggest the airports to sue them and find out if Flybe will be around long enough to see the end of court proceedings and debt collection - and if so, if that will or will not be the final straw for BE. In the meantime, no more flights from the only remaining regional airline in the UK from anywhere to these airports. It is really not so much a legal as a practical issue for all parties involved.
Base closures do not necessarily mean the end of operations at the airport in question.
Where you have a Public Accounts Committee scrutinising everything you do, you wouldn’t always make the correct commercial decision.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Crawley
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It’s all speculation at the mo let’s wait for the announcement from BE. Most of us here don’t know how routes / based are performing and which aren’t so we can all say oh CWL or EXT will close but it’s meaningless.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sydney
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No - they do not own them. The slots were part of the BA and BMI merger. A certain number of slots were ring-fenced for a domestic 2nd airline. But not sure how one goes about applying to operate them or indeed whether they have to re-apply from time to time.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Luxembourg
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Multiple people in the past have noticed that in a remarkably large number of case, an airline with a large feature article in Airliner World has gone bust shortly afterwards. I have yet to see any proper statistical analysis to see if there really is a correlation or it's just people remembering the most obvious cases in the past. Regardless, it's become a bit of urban legend
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the road
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
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With fuel prices so high Flybe will need rapid and effective action in their current situation. Some serious network pruning I imagine will come ...
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Wales
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my understanding was that the routes need to be operated for a period of three routes on the specifics routes, at which time they can be used for whatever the airline want. I'd be amazed if Flybe are making a good return on these. The three year thing was pedalled online when Virgin little red was operating..
With fuel prices so high Flybe will need rapid and effective action in their current situation. Some serious network pruning I imagine will come ...
With fuel prices so high Flybe will need rapid and effective action in their current situation. Some serious network pruning I imagine will come ...
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Sheffield
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Cardiff is. Doncaster isn’t anymore, contract was rewritten (as far as I was aware) due to the fact that the base was making money and flybe werent getting all of that profit due to the blackbird contract agreement. So they have “gone it alone”.
My understanding is both based are doing well and loads are good. I don’t buy into these base closures, why close a base that is profitable?? You’d still have the issue of where to base the aircraft and the headache of crew redundancies.
My understanding is both based are doing well and loads are good. I don’t buy into these base closures, why close a base that is profitable?? You’d still have the issue of where to base the aircraft and the headache of crew redundancies.