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Heathrow-2

Old 15th Feb 2018, 16:18
  #341 (permalink)  
 
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China Southern have filed an application to start WUHAN to LHR effective from 30 May 2018 three weekly with A333-200.
Seems LHR-CAN drops from 10 weekly to daily to compensate.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 02:37
  #342 (permalink)  
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As mentioned above when there is a fatal accident there has to be a coroners inquest for which a mountain of evidence has to be collected at the scene and this takes time.


If an Ops vehicle has a genuine need to exceed the airport speed limit it might help if, instead of flashing yellow lights, (normal ops), it selected a red/blue combination that tells everyone it is speeding for a genuine purpose.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 10:41
  #343 (permalink)  
 
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LlamaFarmer

Good point about differential lighting but would this not require driver training to the requisite standard ie to the same level as the other emergency drivers?
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 11:16
  #344 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
Good point about differential lighting but would this not require driver training to the requisite standard ie to the same level as the other emergency drivers??
Doctors on an emergency call use green lights. They have no training and the green lights offer no privileges to disregard road traffic laws, but are an indication to other road users of the urgency, and for other drivers to give way where possible. (They still have to stick to speed limit and obey all road signs and traffic lights.)

Something similar like that perhaps?
It doesn't necessarily need to be the same level of high speed blue light driving, although yes additional training would never be a bad thing.
It is fine taxiing a plane at 30kts down the taxiway, so if the taxiway is clear it is surely safe for a car to be going down at 50mph, I'd hardly say that would require particularly advanced training.

It's if they'd start doing unexpected things, such as not giving way at the junctions, not sticking to marked roads etc.


Every airside driver knows you give way to moving aircraft, but maybe there needs to be other levels of priority for other vehicles, without making it too complicated.

Where possible and safe we'll always give way (in our aircraft) to emergency vehicles needing to cross the taxiway/apron etc, such as an ambulance going to an aircraft, or police going to somewhere in a hurry. Although ATC Ground controller is usually way ahead of the game there anyway.

But as far as cars/vans/etc go, an emergency (risk to life or of injury) response clearly needs the highest priority. Then urgent airfield ops (such as an urgent runway inspection or FOD clearing) is very time critical and can't take 15 minutes to get to where they need to be waiting for crossings etc (although it's not urgently life-or-death, and if it HAS to be done then they can assure safety by closing the runway and stopping approaches, however this is clearly not ideal, especially at an airport like Heathrow or Gatwick... a few minutes of runway closure can cause backlogs that take the rest of the day to clear and have knock-on effects all around Europe, especially in summer!)
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:31
  #345 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
For me the big question remains: was the cardiac problem pre or post crash? Few seems to want to take that into consideration!
How does that mitigate the speed with which the ops truck t-boned the BA van?. Even if the BA guy suffered the heart attack pre-accident that wouldn't have any affect on the speed of the Ops vehicle. Maneuvering areas are limited to 5 mph for a reason.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:43
  #346 (permalink)  
 
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It doesn't.

BUT, do you know what the Ops vehicle was doing and what it was responding to?
Do you know that it didn't have right of way, and reasonably expect the BA van to stop?
Do you know that the BA van even came from a reasonable direction or at a reasonable speed?


That doesn't imply blame on anyones part, but to say it is the Ops vehicles fault purely because if they had been going slower it wouldn't have happened is not the point.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 12:44
  #347 (permalink)  
 
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The new Government infastructure guru has today demanded "we get on and build the crumbling UK infastructure". Includes Rw3.

I quite agree but let's nail down all the costs and ramifications given government intervention usually means a doubling of the bill.

Others spokespeople including "experts with actual expertise" are more sanguine!

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/bus...59.article?v=1
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 13:20
  #348 (permalink)  
 
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Well from the pictures the BA van was travelling along the rear of he maneuvering area and the ops truck was heading for the taxiway in that circumstance the BA van had right of way because the ops truck is supposed to stop and check before entering the taxiway anyway (I know they dont always bother). To anyone who has worked airside at LHR (and any BAA airport) this incident isnt that surprising.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 13:53
  #349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer View Post
Ops have genuine reasons for needing to go quickly, urgent runway inspection, pick up FOD etc. If they were on a urgent task then yes additional different lighting might help a bit more.
Emergency vehicles, Police, Fire and ambulance, with blue flashing lights, on possible life saving response. Obviously need to exceed speed limits, these drivers are trained to a very high standard.

In my opinion Ops vehicles do not fit in this category.

Out on the airfield/runways away from the parking stands, it may be convenient to drive at speed to aid with the operation. However, once they approach congested parking areas, they should abide by all speed limits. Many times I have witnessed Ops vehicles driving recklessly entering parking stands at high speed. They’ve got away with this for years, probably because they’re the ones enforcing driving standards on the ramp.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 14:17
  #350 (permalink)  
 
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Exactly.

I have witnessed 3 serious incidents "air side" in 3 different countries.
Each one was a result of rushing where there was no real need and 2 out of 3 resulted in fatalities.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 15:32
  #351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
My only concerns were the many assumptions made about the cause of this particular accident. No one, including you, know all the facts. Whilst I very much feel for the unfortunate victim, his family, friends and colleagues, unlike some on here I'm not ready to hang the Ops vehicle driver whilst not knowing all the facts concerning the cause. For me the big question remains: was the cardiac problem pre or post crash? Few seems to want to take that into consideration!
I agree with most of your points. For me the big question is. Which seat was the poor guy occupying? If he was in the pax seat (that seemed to take the brunt) then surely his cardiac condition was irrelevant!
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 17:03
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Thank you Epsomdog.

For me the big question is. Which seat was the poor guy occupying?
That question had also occurred to me upon seeing the pictures. however, the following would seem to point to one person per vehicle.

Police and paramedics were called to the scene of the incident shortly after 6am on Wednesday morning, which the airport has said involved two male members of staff.
And that is what made me then wonder if the cardiac condition may have existed pre crash.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 17:12
  #353 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Epsomdog View Post
Many times I have witnessed Ops vehicles driving recklessly entering parking stands at high speed. They’ve got away with this for years, probably because they’re the ones enforcing driving standards on the ramp.
And that is the issue - I have never seen a single Ops vehicle in 4 decades in this industry ever be stopped for speeding.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 18:27
  #354 (permalink)  
 
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In 35 years at Gatwick( now retired) with Bcal then working in Handling Agents ops control centers, Airfield Ops went from pleasant helpful to just avoid contact if possible.Noticeable when ownership moved from BAA to whatever it's called now.
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Old 16th Feb 2018, 19:22
  #355 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of years ago a BAA yellow opspatrol (similar model to this accident) vehicle rolled over onto its Heathrow’s ‘F’ ‘B’ ‘R’ taxiway area, no other vehicles involved. Apparently the BAA’s response was “there was a bee in the vehicle causing the driver to loose control”.... the speed it would take to roll a vehicle on a wide taxiway is significant. You only had to sit and watch out the window how fast these BAA vehicles go, airfield ops is not an emergency needing to drive that fast, they’d need to invest in more resources if they’re thinly spread.....On a personal note I got “caught” speeding at LGW airside, 30mph (20mph limit the whole of LGW main roads) on a clear sunny day driving behind empty remote stands with not another vehicle in sight. The yellow peril was probably travelling IRO 70mph with black smoke pouring out across the taxiway to issue my bollocking on the grounds of health and safety..... this sort of incident at LHR could have been predicted by many a LHR airside worker. RIP John Coles.
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Old 22nd Feb 2018, 17:35
  #356 (permalink)  
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Flight operations videos

Heathrow has published a set of videos on YouTube describing aspects of its operations (also being shown at the current expansion roadshows):







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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 20:36
  #357 (permalink)  
 
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Heathrow runway

Have been involved in discussions over the building of another runway at Heathrow. I would be interested on the views of ppruners on this very difficult decision.
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 21:55
  #358 (permalink)  
 
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There’s a whole thread.

New Thames Airport for London
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Old 23rd Feb 2018, 22:53
  #359 (permalink)  
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Several, in fact.

Including one started by the poster who is asking the question:

PPRuNe: Another runway at Heathrow
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 20:49
  #360 (permalink)  
 
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Third runway at Heathrow

Have been reading the report which is many pages long. Am interested in readers views on steeper approaches using a 3.2 degree glideslope to reduce noise. It doesnt seem very much to me and can it be used in some form of instrument approach ?
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