Manchester-2
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De-icing equipment
Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this once again down to the handling agents, or is it a pooled set of equipment?
Maybe it's time for the monkeys to be paid to invest in better equipment.
Maybe it's time for the monkeys to be paid to invest in better equipment.
Last edited by Scottie Dog; 28th Feb 2018 at 08:22.
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De-icing equipment
Same thing happened to us when we flew to Dubai in January on the lunchtime EK. Temperature was a few degrees above freezing but our expected 10 minute delay due late inbound turned into 1 hour 10 minutes. No explanation given at first until through the a/c window I saw 1 guy and his truck painstakingly working his way round the a/c. Fortunately we had plenty of time for our connection and 30 minutes was made up in flight. A couple waiting anxiously to disembark at Dubai were hoping to catch what would have been a tight connection anyway to Bali. With the temperature unlikely to get above freezing, I wonder how today's EK flights will fare.
Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?
Same thing happened to us when we flew to Dubai in January on the lunchtime EK. Temperature was a few degrees above freezing but our expected 10 minute delay due late inbound turned into 1 hour 10 minutes. No explanation given at first until through the a/c window I saw 1 guy and his truck painstakingly working his way round the a/c. Fortunately we had plenty of time for our connection and 30 minutes was made up in flight. A couple waiting anxiously to disembark at Dubai were hoping to catch what would have been a tight connection anyway to Bali. With the temperature unlikely to get above freezing, I wonder how today's EK flights will fare.
Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?
Last edited by MANFOD; 28th Feb 2018 at 08:51. Reason: late addition
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Airline Services and Swissport provide de-icing at Manchester. Airline Services does EK. They actually have at least three new de-icers this year, I assume the problem is lack of staff rather than lack of trucks.
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Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?
And now a lot of snow coming down as another of the showers has escaped over the Pennines.Passengers now generally expect low fares and airlines screw the agents (and airports) down in terms of what they are prepared to pay. As a result resources are cut to the bone and are on the edge even in "normal" conditions, so when things go wrong, as it does quite often, it all goes tits-up very quickly. In addition there is little motivation for many staff to go that "extra mile" as their working conditions are often at minimum rates and unsociable hours. And it's not only in aviation it happens - it is also a feature of many other industries nowadays as is becoming increasingly obvious.
The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...
But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport". My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.
Meanwhile, many MAN departures are getting away quite reasonably despite the snow and increasing wind-speeds. And in shocking news, MAN has taken a few diversions from DUB today
Spend money at Manchester?! Now you really are living in dreamworld!
Last edited by Suzeman; 28th Feb 2018 at 12:08.
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...
The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ... But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport".
My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.
....
The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...
But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport". My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.
....
Q: Since the de-icing is run by fewer companies do they contract with them directly or via the handling agents? Depending on the number of layers between the user and the provider they can end up almost unaccountable for failures.
Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything,
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.
MA can act if it wants to.
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It is not those GHA's such as Swissport/Airline Services that do provide de-icing but those that do not, Menzies, Dnata etc., or self handling carriers such as Jet2. It is down to cost!!
MAG could always just insist as part of Licence that they have to provide for their customers.
MAG could always just insist as part of Licence that they have to provide for their customers.
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I bet the Emirate's crew were less amused than we were as we taxied in last night. It was quite funny to see one truck pointlessly attempting to de/ant-ice the A380 in falling snow no doubt taking longer to clear the whole aircraft than the actual hold over time!
I see they finally got away about 1am.
I see they finally got away about 1am.
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Assuming PAX/Crew boarded Aircraft for a 20:35 departure then they were onboard for a hell of a long time last night.
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This De-icing saga does not just raise its head during Snow conditions. Any days where temp fall close to freezing will give rise for the requirement to de-ice airframes, as well as runway / taxiway surfaces.
So during a normal winter period, there will be many times where this becomes necessary, so the point that "this doesn't happen very often" is quite incorrect. Yes snow is not all that frequent but Ice and low temps are quite the norm for a fair few prolonged periods.
I'm sure other airfields go through the same scenario, but with Man being in 3rd position in the UK with regard to movement numbers, surely something better could be brought in, especially seeing we are in the FROZEN NORTH or so those darn sarf would have us believe?
Also, having all that airframe de-icing fluid sloshing over the stands, can lead to "Slippery when Wet" conditions for ground personnel, whereas surface de-icing fluid does not. Plus, on the GREEN front, a dedicated area can give rise to the contained drainage of the chemical and then its re-use, after filtration has taken place, thus saving money in the long term with better overall performance!
Much to mull over me thinks for the future? There again much mulling has taken place previously with little action, so may the Farse be with you !
So during a normal winter period, there will be many times where this becomes necessary, so the point that "this doesn't happen very often" is quite incorrect. Yes snow is not all that frequent but Ice and low temps are quite the norm for a fair few prolonged periods.
I'm sure other airfields go through the same scenario, but with Man being in 3rd position in the UK with regard to movement numbers, surely something better could be brought in, especially seeing we are in the FROZEN NORTH or so those darn sarf would have us believe?
Also, having all that airframe de-icing fluid sloshing over the stands, can lead to "Slippery when Wet" conditions for ground personnel, whereas surface de-icing fluid does not. Plus, on the GREEN front, a dedicated area can give rise to the contained drainage of the chemical and then its re-use, after filtration has taken place, thus saving money in the long term with better overall performance!
Much to mull over me thinks for the future? There again much mulling has taken place previously with little action, so may the Farse be with you !
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Except if MAG wanted they could centralise the de-icing under the airport's responsibility. This on of the examples were it is acknowledged that good operational cases can be made for removing the competition.
Don't know what the relations between agents, airlines and airport is like nowadays, but I do wonder. Has the once much vaunted concept of ACDM (Airport Collaborative Decision Making) been introduced at MAN yet?
Anyway, most flights seem to have been getting away with small delays today except when there was a SNOCLO for about an hour in mid afternoon after a very heavy snow shower, so credit where credit is due.
Not true. The Airport licence the handling agents to operate. They can, and do, monitor their performance.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.
MA can act if it wants to.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.
MA can act if it wants to.
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Over at LPL the de-icing is nothing to do with the handling agents. It’s all centrally controlled and works really well, obviously it’s a lot smaller scale than MAN and it doesn't help when it takes 4 hours to clear the runway (like this week).
At most major European airports the de-ice process is seamless. You taxi out and near the runway holding point normally 2 de-ice rigs are waiting to de-ice whilst you keep engines running. Maximises hold over times with the aircraft then ready for an immediate departure. Wouldn’t be too much effort by MAN to sort something similar, even Madrid has this process and it’s rarely used. Just such a waste of time/resource when the de-ice rigs have to drive around the airport from aircraft to aircraft, with the rig operator mounting/dismounting the boom box.
At most major European airports the de-ice process is seamless. You taxi out and near the runway holding point normally 2 de-ice rigs are waiting to de-ice whilst you keep engines running. Maximises hold over times with the aircraft then ready for an immediate departure. Wouldn’t be too much effort by MAN to sort something similar, even Madrid has this process and it’s rarely used. Just such a waste of time/resource when the de-ice rigs have to drive around the airport from aircraft to aircraft, with the rig operator mounting/dismounting the boom box.
Last edited by Dct_Mopas; 1st Mar 2018 at 11:39.
