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Old 15th Sep 2020, 08:54
  #1761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
For some years I was a regular, both business and leisure, traveller based in east Midlands and I soon came to recognise that my most convenient airport was BHX, not for direct services but for convenience, easy/cheap car parking, good road/rail connections, easy thru the terminal with normally time for a pint or two before departure.

But the number of people from the north that would drive straight past BHX down the M6, M5, M40 to the likes of LHR for their direct flights to wherever who simply didn't recognise that these destinations were available from the BHX airport they passed some two hours previously albeit via an intermediary hub such as AMS, CDG, CPH, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH etc.

CWL will have a similar problem, let's say Mrs Jones asks where she can take a flight to Rome she is likely to receive a reply of BRS or LHR so off Mrs Jones is likely to toddle to BRS or LHR when CWL have up to 3 services daily to/from Rome via AMS, that is the problem and not likely to be one that shall go away anytime soon.

So at present, let's say a percentage of the travelling public travel to LHR, another percentage travel to BRS leaving only the percentage of smarter ones to realise that they can fly locally via that intermediary hub, I can't recall how the AMS route developed, if indeed it was KLM/NLM or Netherlines that started it but I recall at one stage it being combined with a BRS service utilising F27's, I recall direct services utilising SF340's then F27/F50's and a long way thereafter developing it to up to 3 x 80 (ish) daily jet services.

But bring in more European hub operators, as suggested FRA (Lufthansa) and CDG (Air France) seems to be a want then that modest percentage of the smarter ones flying from CWL are going to find themselves spoilt for choice and shall probably utilise the cheapest and most convenient intermediary hub operator, not only are KLM likely to lose passengers but what are the smallest aircraft types that these operators operate to develop and/or maintain a route these days with pretty much all of the lesser sized recognised airliners long since out of production.

What is needed is education by marketing, thereafter might come intermediary hub operations route development, it works very well from BHX so what have BHX done that CWL haven't done?
Whilst I agree with your points to a degree, its not really that simple. Your average Mr or Mrs Jones would not want the hassle of transferring through a hub and taking 2 flights. They would rather the hassle of driving 1-2hrs down the M4 to BRS/LHR or up the M5 to BHX. To many its not even a hassle thats thought about anymore, its the norm.
Business people or regular flyers will be more open minded to hub Airports because they are used to flying. Your average leisure break passenger isn't, so wants the cheapest and quickest air route but will sacrifice land route to get it.

This is where I believe CWL massively missed the mark with Flybe. It offered good city options but people didn't know about them. In my eyes they weren't marketed well at all.
CWL needs to work on changing mindsets and shouting from the rooftops about what is offered, especially from the likes of Vueling and Ryanair. Social media is a great FREE platform that needs to be used to its full potential, on top of some mainstream media campaigns. Get people thinking about CWL and checking prices there first. There will always be some leakage to other Airports but its all too common to hear of people not even checking CWL because they think its too expensive or the route isn't available.

I agree with Marko, CWL needs to retreat and work on what it does well with what its already got. KLM and QR were performing well before covid19. KLM needs to be built up to 3x E190s a day and QR still has plenty of scope to fill seats on its current offerings.
The domestic routes need to be brought back, and part of me still thinks there's something in the pipeline with Eastern, especially after CWL being mentioned in the media as having some popular routes not yet being taken on.

Sadly Covid19 is a big stumbling block at the moment which makes any near future predictions very unpredictable!
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 09:37
  #1762 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
Whilst I agree with your points to a degree, its not really that simple. Your average Mr or Mrs Jones would not want the hassle of transferring through a hub and taking 2 flights. They would rather the hassle of driving 1-2hrs down the M4 to BRS/LHR or up the M5 to BHX. To many its not even a hassle thats thought about anymore, its the norm.
Business people or regular flyers will be more open minded to hub Airports because they are used to flying. Your average leisure break passenger isn't, so wants the cheapest and quickest air route but will sacrifice land route to get it.!
I agree also to a degree, that many a leisure traveller may be nervous of flying with the most dangerous bits being the landings, "give me a direct flight anyday".

But then going back a few months I saw an exchange with a BRS enthusiast about all the destinations BRS serves, I think it was FCO and another that I checked and the unsocial hours that some of the flights arrive back in to BRS pax are snookered for public transportation, it would either be a hire-car or bust and dare to have had a sherbet or few during the long day until that late evening then even a hire-car wouldn't be a viable option.

And as for LHR, already much of a full day of travelling and then the joys of National Express along the M4, perhaps via Bristol, Chepstow and/or Newport arriving in to, or near to, Cardiff Central so late that there are no connecting buses or trains until the next morning ... WHY?

Last edited by OC37; 15th Sep 2020 at 10:42.
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 09:41
  #1763 (permalink)  
 
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The facts dictate the post is very wrong concerning hub flying...& as alluded then who says the quickest "air route" is the cheapest...mostly the reverse anyway isn`t it?
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 16:02
  #1764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by southside bobby View Post
The facts dictate the post is very wrong concerning hub flying...& as alluded then who says the quickest "air route" is the cheapest...mostly the reverse anyway isn`t it?
Exactly ...

From BHX one of my regular destinations was FCO, at the time Jet2, supposedly a LoCo, operated the route directly albeit at unconvenient times, it was actually cheaper for me to travel with Swiss, 3 services daily, PDQ connections in ZRH, and with a complimentary sandwich, coffee and beer served on each sector.

And ditto for BHX/MXP also, served directly at the time by BA Connect and then Flybe, cheaper and more convenient schedules via ZRH with Swiss.
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 16:15
  #1765 (permalink)  
 
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Horses for courses though, fine if you are travelling on yr own and yr happy to do it.

If you're on your 'big' holiday with family and bags, who wants the risk/hassle of a longer journey connecting through an unfamiliar airport?
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 17:18
  #1766 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
Horses for courses though, fine if you are travelling on yr own and yr happy to do it.

If you're on your 'big' holiday with family and bags, who wants the risk/hassle of a longer journey connecting through an unfamiliar airport?
But unless families fly to/from the same destination each year then they are travelling thru unfamiliar airports!

Come on, Schiphol Airport, I presume that non EU duty free has resumed in UK, SPL is full of shops for the women to get lost in whilst the men nip off to the Murphy's Irish Pub near the C gates for a swift one or few
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Old 15th Sep 2020, 18:05
  #1767 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
But unless families fly to/from the same destination each year then they are travelling thru unfamiliar airports!

Come on, Schiphol Airport, I presume that non EU duty free has resumed in UK, SPL is full of shops for the women to get lost in whilst the men nip off to the Murphy's Irish Pub near the C gates for a swift one or few
Changing mindsets of people in the UK to use connecting flights through Hub Airports is a mammoth and unfamiliar task to approach the standard leisure traveller with. Thats a nationwide task, not just a CWL task.

Flybe had the chance to do it from CWL, with many of their European routes not actually being available from other Airports (by Flybe), yet EDI, BHD and DUB all had connection opportunities through CWL due to the domestic timings working well for short connections. Yet most of those routes still weren't popular and never saw anything to say connections were advertised at those origins.
The majority of the time, the locos are cheaper and quicker, which is the priority for most. If the likes of KLM come out cheaper that would raise alarm bells that their flights aren't busy from CWL, which opens another can of worms.

As for AMS shopping is a luxury on travel not necessity. They would want that at the Airport of origin. If anything the least time spent at a connecting Airport the better. Unless travelling long haul.
There may be deal out there and good connection opportunities, which may be appealing to aviation enthusiasts or those in the know, but afraid the general public don't want that and it will take a lot to change.

I know people that have travelled to MAN, LTN and STN just because the price was good. A friend of mine even travelled to CYPRUS from Luton via the Ukraine to just because the price was good during the school holidays.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 03:23
  #1768 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
Changing mindsets of people in the UK to use connecting flights through Hub Airports is a mammoth and unfamiliar task to approach the standard leisure traveller with..
Why focus on the leisure travellers who might only travel once per year and shop and shop around for the cheapest fare, try targetting the business travellers who might travel every few weeks if not less, they are the 'bread & butter' that should be targetted, one business traveller might be worth a dozen leisure travellers!

Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
The majority of the time, the locos are cheaper and quicker, which is the priority for most. If the likes of KLM come out cheaper that would raise alarm bells that their flights aren't busy from CWL, which opens another can of worms..
Call me experienced but when I'm checking for leisure flights I'm bearing in mind hotel check-in/check-out times, I mentioned FCO/BRS previously, on certain days that flight departs FCO at 2005, if a hotel check-out is 1200 what the **** is one supposed to do for the next 8 hours until their flight departs?

And that flight arrives back in BRS at 2155, there is a coach to Cardiff that departs BRS at 0100, arrives Cardiff at 0225 and then diddly squat onward public transportation for another 3 hours or so, one could get home by around 0700 in the morning.

When I would travel on business I wouldn't, I couldn't afford to, lose a day from the office travelling at an unsuitable time of day just for a direct flight, if my meeting wasn't until the next day then I could occupy until mid-afternoon in the office before the one hour drive to BHX to take a teatime/early evening flight. Next day, once the meeting may be finished, back to FCO for an afternoon flight back, home that evening to be back in the office the next morning.

It wouldn't ring alarm bells, from BHX I regularly travelled to FCO with Swiss via ZRH because they were cheaper than the direct service Jet2, I would regularly travel to RIX, it was cheaper with KLM from BHX via AMS than it was the RYR direct service EMA/RIX that would likely have been full of sex tourists, I was a regular traveller BHX to ARN, mostly I utilised KLM via AMS with one time Lufty being cheaper via FRA, both were cheaper than SAS BHX/CPH/ARN, I was a regular traveller to KBP, only direct services were from LON, I utilised the KLM/UIA codeshare via AMS a few times but then I learned of Lufty's cheap BHX/DUS/KBP on CRJ500's all the way there and back with (achieved) 30 (ish) minute connections in DUS because both were non-Schengen flights so utilised the same terminal finger.

Going back a decade or two I was working for a woman boss in the east Midlands, she was a regular traveller to Belfast where she had friends in the city, we were equal travelling times from both BHX and LTN with BHX a pleasure to transit and LTN a nightmare, she was convinced that EZY were the cheapest LTN/BFS and even when I proved to her that BA Connect BHX/BHD were even cheaper she continued to utilise EZY, these people become brainwashed that a supposed loco is always the cheapest!

Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
A friend of mine even travelled to CYPRUS from Luton via the Ukraine to just because the price was good during the school holidays.
Yes, Ukraine can offer that since they relaxed the visa requirement, must be, 15+ years ago, just look at the UIA B737 that the Iranians shot down, of the 167 pax on board 138 of them were to connect with UIA in KBP for onward travel to Canada, hardly any of the pax on board were actually destination Ukraine.

Last edited by OC37; 16th Sep 2020 at 05:30.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 05:38
  #1769 (permalink)  
 
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Caardiff - out of interest (I honestly don’t know the answer) if in the Flybe day I were to purchase, say EDICWLVCE ticket - would I have been able to thru check myself and bags ? I assume I would have to clear in CWL and re check-in ? Would the same have to have happened to my bags ?
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 08:39
  #1770 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
Why focus on the leisure travellers who might only travel once per year and shop and shop around for the cheapest fare, try targetting the business travellers who might travel every few weeks if not less, they are the 'bread & butter' that should be targetted, one business traveller might be worth a dozen leisure travellers!



Call me experienced but when I'm checking for leisure flights I'm bearing in mind hotel check-in/check-out times, I mentioned FCO/BRS previously, on certain days that flight departs FCO at 2005, if a hotel check-out is 1200 what the **** is one supposed to do for the next 8 hours until their flight departs?

And that flight arrives back in BRS at 2155, there is a coach to Cardiff that departs BRS at 0100, arrives Cardiff at 0225 and then diddly squat onward public transportation for another 3 hours or so, one could get home by around 0700 in the morning.

When I would travel on business I wouldn't, I couldn't afford to, lose a day from the office travelling at an unsuitable time of day just for a direct flight, if my meeting wasn't until the next day then I could occupy until mid-afternoon in the office before the one hour drive to BHX to take a teatime/early evening flight. Next day, once the meeting may be finished, back to FCO for an afternoon flight back, home that evening to be back in the office the next morning.

It wouldn't ring alarm bells, from BHX I regularly travelled to FCO with Swiss via ZRH because they were cheaper than the direct service Jet2, I would regularly travel to RIX, it was cheaper with KLM from BHX via AMS than it was the RYR direct service EMA/RIX that would likely have been full of sex tourists, I was a regular traveller BHX to ARN, mostly I utilised KLM via AMS with one time Lufty being cheaper via FRA, both were cheaper than SAS BHX/CPH/ARN, I was a regular traveller to KBP, only direct services were from LON, I utilised the KLM/UIA codeshare via AMS a few times but then I learned of Lufty's cheap BHX/DUS/KBP on CRJ500's all the way there and back with (achieved) 30 (ish) minute connections in DUS because both were non-Schengen flights so utilised the same terminal finger.

Going back a decade or two I was working for a woman boss in the east Midlands, she was a regular traveller to Belfast where she had friends in the city, we were equal travelling times from both BHX and LTN with BHX a pleasure to transit and LTN a nightmare, she was convinced that EZY were the cheapest LTN/BFS and even when I proved to her that BA Connect BHX/BHD were even cheaper she continued to utilise EZY, these people become brainwashed that a supposed loco is always the cheapest!



Yes, Ukraine can offer that since they relaxed the visa requirement, must be, 15+ years ago, just look at the UIA B737 that the Iranians shot down, of the 167 pax on board 138 of them were to connect with UIA in KBP for onward travel to Canada, hardly any of the pax on board were actually destination Ukraine.
I'm not denying that sometimes hub flying can be cheaper or more convenient. The point im trying to make is there is only limited business travel demand from CWL, most of which probably already uses KLM and is save to the points you've made above.

The reason I focus on leisure travellers is that is the bulk of the Welsh Market. The example given regarding Rome is certainly a good one if you're a business traveller, convenience is a must. But If i was a tourist visiting Rome I would want to continue seeing the city after checking out of the hotel. Whether that means leaving my bags and collecting them later or carrying them with me. I would also want a late flight to maximise my time there. Leisure travellers aren't overly concerned about the travel to/from the Airport. The majority of holiday/leisure flights that depart mid afternoon from the UK often don't return until the early hours of the morning, when taking a car or booking a transfer us essential. We're both talking about 2 different markets and the different demands of both.

I would suspect the demise of BMI has had a positive effect on KLM at CWL with business travellers using that instead of the convenience of direct regular flights from BRS.

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Old 16th Sep 2020, 08:43
  #1771 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TOM100 View Post
Caardiff - out of interest (I honestly donít know the answer) if in the Flybe day I were to purchase, say EDICWLVCE ticket - would I have been able to thru check myself and bags ? I assume I would have to clear in CWL and re check-in ? Would the same have to have happened to my bags ?
Provided its booked as a through ticket then it would check you in all the way through. Its likely your bags would be tagged through but would still need to be collected and rechecked in though, I'm not entirely sure that CWL offered a transfer baggage option on arrival.
You'd need to clear domestic arrivals or immigration if returning and go back through security.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 09:38
  #1772 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
IThe reason I focus on leisure travellers is that is the bulk of the Welsh Market.
So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 10:29
  #1773 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?
Business, VFR and leisure. Edinburgh is a big tourist destination, NI has attractions like the giants causeway. Paris is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the world, also has Disney and CDG is a hub not too mention inbound tourism from France.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 10:36
  #1774 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45 View Post
Business, VFR and leisure. Edinburgh is a big tourist destination, NI has attractions like the giants causeway. Paris is one of the biggest tourist destinations in the world, also has Disney and CDG is a hub not too mention inbound tourism from France.
Perhaps for weekend breaks but not Monday thru Friday and then some or doesn't anybody have a job to go to in Wales ... Actually, thinking about it, perhaps best you don't answer that
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 12:05
  #1775 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
So where were the pax for the Flybe Scottish routes coming from, Belfast is not realistically a leisure destination or has it become that, where would CDG 5+ times weekly pax come from, I worked at CWL 30 years ago and it was pretty much a bucket & spade brigade airport then and from what you're suggesting it hasn't changed very much, is there realistically any hope that CWL can ever make a year-round break-even or profit?
The topic was European City routes and Hub Airports. Not UK & I domestic. Two completely different markets which PDXCWL has covered.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 12:30
  #1776 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
The topic was European City routes and Hub Airports. Not UK & I domestic. Two completely different markets which PDXCWL has covered.
Whose topic was European City routes and hub airports and, please excuse me if I am mistaken, are GLA, EDI, BFS/BHD & PAR not European cities, I was of the impression that this thread was about CWL generating revenue and who should particularly care how that revenue is generated!
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 13:08
  #1777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
Perhaps for weekend breaks but not Monday thru Friday and then some or doesn't anybody have a job to go to in Wales ... Actually, thinking about it, perhaps best you don't answer that
People fly when they need to and not everybody works Monday to Friday.
in 2019 over 100,000 people used the Edinburgh route and around 60,000 used Paris and Belfast is similar Dublin was around 100,000 as well. The demand was and no doubt will be there for those routes. Only airlines can decide if they want to cater for it.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 13:31
  #1778 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OC37 View Post
Whose topic was European City routes and hub airports and, please excuse me if I am mistaken, are GLA, EDI, BFS/BHD & PAR not European cities, I was of the impression that this thread was about CWL generating revenue and who should particularly care how that revenue is generated!
Your post at 0231am on 15th Sep and the majority of posts that followed it. Forgive me for misinterpreting that post, but it eludes to Hub Airports vs direct routes and lists several European cities. No mention of domestic routes, and although it happens, domestic UK travel via Hub Airports is very rare.
GLA, EDI & BHD are European cities but they are also domestic routes which are served regularly by most Airports with good frequencies. Aside from AMS and CDG, the cities you mentioned in your post on 15th Sept aren't high frequency routes from most Airports. Hence the discussion that transpired regarding frequency and convenience.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 13:40
  #1779 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45 View Post
People fly when they need to and not everybody works Monday to Friday.
in 2019 over 100,000 people used the Edinburgh route and around 60,000 used Paris and Belfast is similar Dublin was around 100,000 as well. The demand was and no doubt will be there for those routes. Only airlines can decide if they want to cater for it.
But an overwhelming majority do work Monday thru Friday whilst school classes also are Monday thru Friday, I was quite astounded to be informed that CWL doesn't have so many business travellers when I would have thought, that with some notable exceptions, industrial cities are primarily business related with leisure travellers making up the numbers.

Anyway, let's leave it there please.
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Old 16th Sep 2020, 13:40
  #1780 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by caaardiff View Post
Here we go again. Did you apply for the ceo position? Sounds like you can run it better.

With regards to the baggage, have you considered social distancing may be a factor to longer offload times? The hold of an aircraft is a small confined space at the best of times.
I missed this - I am quite happy in my own aviation job ! Not sure there are too many (except maybe Spencer) who would relish this role at the moment. Something at the airport in terms of costs has to give and quickly (simple business economics) unless the WG are happy to continue to bankroll with taxpayers money. This could lead to some anger directed towards the airport.

Although it may not appear obvious, I want the airport to succeed - I use it 10+ times per year, hence my frustration at the apparent lack of commercial focus.

i can only hope they have some magic plan in the pipeline, hence the apparent inertia to react to the current environment. I do feel though that as taxpayers, it is not unreasonable for us to expect them to share some of this. It just feels (I. The absence of any other information) that they are just stumbling on hoping for the best. Surely you have to agree if this were a true commercial organization, they would have to publish their medium term plans and actions ?
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