Sheffield City Airport Petition
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@ eltonioni
I'm afraid you've neatly summed up the whole thing there yourself. You are encouraging somebody to sign a petition about an airport with which they have no concern, and which they are never likely to need. This shows how cheap putting your name to something has become, just a few taps on a keyboard, a click of a mouse and hey presto you're done. As you say, sign something "at no cost to yourself." All this does is trivialise such things, and means nobody who has real power will take a blind bit of notice.
If this idea of saving the airport is to get anywhere, you need meaningful activity, like the support of MPs and local politicians, some on the ground action like protests outside City Hall, and most of all, somebody with real financial backing who is prepared to stand up and say "I think I can take this on....." and be named, not just rumoured about. Take a lesson from the many people who do their best to stop airports developing.
I'm afraid you've neatly summed up the whole thing there yourself. You are encouraging somebody to sign a petition about an airport with which they have no concern, and which they are never likely to need. This shows how cheap putting your name to something has become, just a few taps on a keyboard, a click of a mouse and hey presto you're done. As you say, sign something "at no cost to yourself." All this does is trivialise such things, and means nobody who has real power will take a blind bit of notice.
If this idea of saving the airport is to get anywhere, you need meaningful activity, like the support of MPs and local politicians, some on the ground action like protests outside City Hall, and most of all, somebody with real financial backing who is prepared to stand up and say "I think I can take this on....." and be named, not just rumoured about. Take a lesson from the many people who do their best to stop airports developing.
Last edited by BKS Air Transport; 16th Jan 2013 at 21:38.
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Excellent points BKS, to which I would add:
So you are asking people like PF, and myself, who both think bringing this airport back is a long shot, to put our paws on a petition that we both quite clearly disagree with. What an utterly ridiculous suggestion!
At least go out and find some supporters who back your cause. Or why not go stand outside Glasgow Central Railway station, or somewhere else that is completely irrelevant to your cause, and find more people to sign your petition "no matter what they think".
I will give this industry my support where I feel I have something useful to add, and I have backed my airport in the past when I think we had a very important case to put across and set the nimbys right. I don't think SZD ever had much of a nimby problem, and that can only be because it never had enough flights making enough noise to bother anyone in the first place.
Support aviation that is able to sustain itself. Let DSA bring in any more routes airlines are prepared to invest in. Give the SZD resurrection a wide berth.
Come on, support aviation. This is the last chance to save this facility in Sheffield and no matter what you personally think of the prognosis.
At least go out and find some supporters who back your cause. Or why not go stand outside Glasgow Central Railway station, or somewhere else that is completely irrelevant to your cause, and find more people to sign your petition "no matter what they think".
I will give this industry my support where I feel I have something useful to add, and I have backed my airport in the past when I think we had a very important case to put across and set the nimbys right. I don't think SZD ever had much of a nimby problem, and that can only be because it never had enough flights making enough noise to bother anyone in the first place.
Support aviation that is able to sustain itself. Let DSA bring in any more routes airlines are prepared to invest in. Give the SZD resurrection a wide berth.
For a subject many claim to not care much for, it seems some are happy to waste alot of their time subjecting this thread to their diatribe.
Last edited by pug; 16th Jan 2013 at 23:36.
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For a subject many claim to not care much for
If I'm wasting my time typing a response every few days, how much of your time are you wasting on something that is very unlikely to succeed?
We know you dont, so why not just give it a rest for the time being?
It is up to those with vested interests to decide as to whether what they are doing is worthwhile or not. By all accounts you dont have a vested interest, with the exception of you wanting to be right.
It is up to those with vested interests to decide as to whether what they are doing is worthwhile or not. By all accounts you dont have a vested interest, with the exception of you wanting to be right.
Last edited by pug; 16th Jan 2013 at 23:53.
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We know you dont, so why not just give it a rest for the time being?
Either you are confident in your cause, in which case let's debate the facts, or you can't face the reality of someone taking a critical view to what you are doing, in which case go and support your local fire station.
Like I say, Im leaving it for now to see what happens. I have taken your weak points to task as can be proven in this thread, to the point where I refuse to waste bandwidth covering old ground.
For those that do bother keeping up with the news, it appears more local politicians and business leaders are getting behind the airport. Things are happening behind the scenes.
For those that do bother keeping up with the news, it appears more local politicians and business leaders are getting behind the airport. Things are happening behind the scenes.
Last edited by pug; 17th Jan 2013 at 00:12.
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Like I say, Im leaving it for now to see what happens.
For those that do bother keeping up with the news, it appears more local politicians and business leaders are getting behind the airport. Things are happening behind the scenes.
That goes without saying, and none of us are questioning that.
Our simple point is that we don't think there is a viable case to re-open an airport that was never very busy in the first place. If you have serious hard evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.
In the meantime, you are now just trolling your own thread with your repetition and refusal to debate fact with fact, quite an achievement in forum etiquette!
Last edited by jabird; 17th Jan 2013 at 00:24.
like I say, I dont see the point in dealing in supposition on this subject. People with money and a bit of influence are working hard at (at least) halting development of the business park over the runway. You, on the otherhand, are an internet warrior going around in circles about how 'right' you are. Call me a troll if you like, Im merely suggesting that I put more faith in a group of people who are going out and trying to make something happen, than an armchair analyst who keeps labouring the same points (which I have tackled, as have others).. For instance, others have pointed out the huge inaccuracies in your argument, such as your suggestion that Peel built the airport. Such inaccuracies render your opinion null and void.
PF, not 'til you sign that petition
Last edited by pug; 17th Jan 2013 at 00:34.
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Wow, 20 minutes - I missed you!
People with money and influence have been working in the aviation industry since it started. That does not make their proposals either (a) very likely to happen or (b) likely to be profitable if they do happen.
Remember - someone with money AND influence has already BOUGHT Coventry Airport (or to be technical, the lease). Why? To run flights? Maybe, but unlikely. He has just applied for permission to develop the land AROUND the airport.
Now in the case of SZD, you have a different situation - a choice between property speculation and airport, in which case the property is going to look more attractive.
It was a reference to the "10 years to prove itself" deal. So I stand corrected in that Peel were not the original owners. So what? The deal still stood, the 10 years are up, the airport is closed.
If there's a case for a new SZD (as I understand the case needs commercial ops), then let's hear the destinations. You are the one who is keen to promote this, where do people in Sheffield want to fly to, and how could SZD facilitate that? If the demand really is there, then what aircraft would be used, and which airlines would be likely to operate the flights?
That is why I think you have such an uphill struggle. There is nothing technically stopping KLM from starting up at DSA, but they have CHOSEN not to.
Of course SZD would be closer to the main Sheffield business districts, just as Sheffield Midland would be closer than Meadowhall as an HS2 stop. Yet government seems to be about to back the cheaper option. By far the cheapest option for airlines wanting to serve South Yorks is to open up routes into DSA.
The presence of holiday passengers at said location does not preclude business flights from operating, as happens at most airport across the country.
For me to question your case is not mere "supposition". The onus for any business proposal is on the proposer to make the case, not the other way round.
People with money and a bit of influence are working hard
Remember - someone with money AND influence has already BOUGHT Coventry Airport (or to be technical, the lease). Why? To run flights? Maybe, but unlikely. He has just applied for permission to develop the land AROUND the airport.
Now in the case of SZD, you have a different situation - a choice between property speculation and airport, in which case the property is going to look more attractive.
such as your suggestion that Peel built the airport. Such inaccuracies render your opinion null and void.
If there's a case for a new SZD (as I understand the case needs commercial ops), then let's hear the destinations. You are the one who is keen to promote this, where do people in Sheffield want to fly to, and how could SZD facilitate that? If the demand really is there, then what aircraft would be used, and which airlines would be likely to operate the flights?
That is why I think you have such an uphill struggle. There is nothing technically stopping KLM from starting up at DSA, but they have CHOSEN not to.
Of course SZD would be closer to the main Sheffield business districts, just as Sheffield Midland would be closer than Meadowhall as an HS2 stop. Yet government seems to be about to back the cheaper option. By far the cheapest option for airlines wanting to serve South Yorks is to open up routes into DSA.
The presence of holiday passengers at said location does not preclude business flights from operating, as happens at most airport across the country.
For me to question your case is not mere "supposition". The onus for any business proposal is on the proposer to make the case, not the other way round.
Last edited by jabird; 17th Jan 2013 at 00:55.
You are still missing the point.
Of course it is, to a property developer with a competing interest in Doncaster. They didn't get a bad deal for £1. You cannot compare SZD with CVT, if only because of how close CVT is to BHX..
They were allowed to purchase a prime development site for £1 provided they proved that the airport was not viable. They were in the process of developing an airport in Doncaster. Doesn't that ring alarm bells? Public money was ploughed into the development of road infrastructure amongst other things, in order to develop the airport. This will prove very profitable to somebody who wants to turn the place into a faceless business park.
Why does it? Why is 'Manchester City Airport' still going strong without even an asphalt runway?
If I was to try to answer that question about routes then I would be speculating. It's therefore pointless. Someone clearly has faith in something on that front, but as we dont know who it is (other than them having other aviation interests) then how can we possibly answer that?
No, there is nothing technically stopping KLM from operating from DSA. Commercially on the other hand, there arguably (and clearly) is. Humberside not being too far away for instance, along with the fact that DSA is too far away from Sheffield to provide a competitive advantage to Sheffield passengers over MAN or EMA. Loads on business services from DSA have been very low when they have been offered for instance. They were more popular from SZD.
And that is just the point I'm trying to make. The onus is on the proposer to make proposals to the people that matter at this stage. They may even have a workable and profitable proposal to turn the airport into solely a GA airfield for all we know.
I dont think viability is the problem here at all. The problem is that Peel are highly unlikely to sell for any reasonable amount, and the council clearly have no interest in supporting any proposal to turn the place back into an airport.
Now in the case of SZD, you have a different situation - a choice between property speculation and airport, in which case the property is going to look more attractive.
So what? The deal still stood, the 10 years are up, the airport is closed
If there's a case for a new SZD (as I understand the case needs commercial ops), then let's hear the destinations. You are the one who is keen to promote this, where do people in Sheffield want to fly to, and how could SZD facilitate that? If the demand really is there, then what aircraft would be used, and which airlines would be likely to operate the flights?
If I was to try to answer that question about routes then I would be speculating. It's therefore pointless. Someone clearly has faith in something on that front, but as we dont know who it is (other than them having other aviation interests) then how can we possibly answer that?
There is nothing technically stopping KLM from starting up at DSA, but they have CHOSEN not to.
The onus for any business proposal is on the proposer to make the case, not the other way round.
I dont think viability is the problem here at all. The problem is that Peel are highly unlikely to sell for any reasonable amount, and the council clearly have no interest in supporting any proposal to turn the place back into an airport.
Last edited by pug; 17th Jan 2013 at 01:23.
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"Manchester City Airport"?
I can call my house a castle but it doesn't mean that William & Kate will be popping in for tea and biscuits anytime soon ... Manchester/Barton is a grass aerodrome ... "Airport" my ass!!!
But ... be respectful enough to answer jabird's question(s), what routes from Sheffield City, what aircraft types and what operators? ... And without changing the topic of conversation to a grass field somewhere close to Manchester!
I can call my house a castle but it doesn't mean that William & Kate will be popping in for tea and biscuits anytime soon ... Manchester/Barton is a grass aerodrome ... "Airport" my ass!!!
But ... be respectful enough to answer jabird's question(s), what routes from Sheffield City, what aircraft types and what operators? ... And without changing the topic of conversation to a grass field somewhere close to Manchester!
"Manchester City Airport"?
I can call my house a castle but it doesn't mean that William & Kate will be popping in for tea and biscuits anytime soon ... Manchester/Barton is a grass aerodrome ... "Airport" my ass!!!
But ... be respectful enough to answer jabird's question(s), what routes from Sheffield City, what aircraft types and what operators? ... And without changing the topic of conversation to a grass field somewhere close to Manchester!
I can call my house a castle but it doesn't mean that William & Kate will be popping in for tea and biscuits anytime soon ... Manchester/Barton is a grass aerodrome ... "Airport" my ass!!!
But ... be respectful enough to answer jabird's question(s), what routes from Sheffield City, what aircraft types and what operators? ... And without changing the topic of conversation to a grass field somewhere close to Manchester!
I'm saying (I think quite clearly) that a reopened airport doesn't necessarily require any scheduled services whatsoever. Peel own Barton Aerodrome, it is in profit, it has no scheduled services whatsoever. In fact, I dont think a reopened airport will include passenger facilities in order to handle passenger flights. That is however just my opinion because in reality nobody on here knows..
Last edited by pug; 17th Jan 2013 at 09:02.
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Pug,
Barton is adjacent to, effectively, England's 2nd city and with the other Manchester Aerodrome being significantly busy with the big stuff and significantly expensive to operate in and out of.
So how do you figure that Barton is comparable to Sheffield?
Barton is adjacent to, effectively, England's 2nd city and with the other Manchester Aerodrome being significantly busy with the big stuff and significantly expensive to operate in and out of.
So how do you figure that Barton is comparable to Sheffield?
Barton being adjacent to Manchester still doesn't make it one of the busier GA fields in the UK. In fact, you would find many of those are in areas of smaller populations than Sheffield. So what is your point, since you've realised that there is no point comparing scheduled operations?
Are we to assume that all of those airfields throughout the country are loss leaders because they aren't close to Manchester? I pop into Gamston and Sherburn (amongst others) now and then on XC, as do many others, they aren't tumbleweed setups..
Are we to assume that all of those airfields throughout the country are loss leaders because they aren't close to Manchester? I pop into Gamston and Sherburn (amongst others) now and then on XC, as do many others, they aren't tumbleweed setups..
Last edited by pug; 17th Jan 2013 at 09:22.
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From the original article.
I'm happy to keep speculating as I have yet to see any convincing facts which persuade me the airport could re-open and remain viable. Any "scandal" arguments would only be relevant if this could be proved AND the airport was viable.
To suggest there would be "no problem" with a business plan, without providing such evidence is just ridiculous.
It really should be me now that gets my coat!
The man has told the FSB he wants to buy the 80 acre site from its owners, Peel Holdings and a consortium of private investors, and reopen it to flights.
He claims he could operate scheduled services to UK and European cities, and proposes to offer flight training, air taxi, and business charter services.
He claims he could operate scheduled services to UK and European cities, and proposes to offer flight training, air taxi, and business charter services.
I'm happy to keep speculating as I have yet to see any convincing facts which persuade me the airport could re-open and remain viable. Any "scandal" arguments would only be relevant if this could be proved AND the airport was viable.
To suggest there would be "no problem" with a business plan, without providing such evidence is just ridiculous.
It really should be me now that gets my coat!
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Lost opportunities, lacking interest...
We have lost some airfields along the way, but hopefully others prosper, through a mix of business and private flying, maintenance etc. Examples being Gloucestershire, Nottingham, Leicester, Halfpenny Green, and with what looks like local authority support, the prospect of a hard runway going in at Rochester in return for part of the airfield developed for other commercial purposes.
Sadly the City of Sheffield has a long history of missed opportunities and lack of interest in fixed wing aviation, at least as far as the City Council is concerned. There was an airfield at Norton on the City's southern boundary. Developed during WW1, but long since lost to schools and housing. My father recalls seeing Sir Alan Cobham flying there in the 1930's.
Back in the 1960's the erstwhile "Yorkshire Airport Development Association" concluded that Sheffield would not provide enough traffic for a local airport. (however an International airport at Ferrybridge alongside the A1 was proposed...) The Sheffield Chamber of Commerce reacted by pressing for the urgent provision of an "airstrip" for business flights to and from Sheffield. Various locations came and went, Todwick, Anston, Hady near Chesterfield, and even plans to develop the existing grass airfield at Coal Aston ("EGCA"), however with the latter, development plans suggested by S/Ldr Wallace of Netherthorpe airfield were turned down by Chesterfield RDC, the planning authority.
Industrial concerns in Sheffield such as United Steel and Davy Ashmore were quietly getting on with flying from Coal Aston in the piston twins of that era, Piaggio P166 and Beech Queenair.
Writing in one of the Sheffield papers in 1964 the Assistant Managing Director of United Steel quotes his aircraft as making 108 landings in Sheffield in 1963, and the business aircraft of other industrial concerns making a further 120 landings, I assume mainly at EGCA. Some 50 years on, business aviation has changed, with the emphasis on turbine and jet aircraft needing longer hard runways, undertaking longer distance flights, eg to Europe and beyond.
Unfortunately EGCA would not be suitable for modern business/executive craft, it is a "challenging" grass airfield with a strict movements limit in its ongoing planning consent.
During this 1960's soul searching about air facilities for Sheffield, the City Council came down in favour of a heliport, eventually opening one at Parkwood Springs.
So what is the situation today? Holiday pax need to make the trek to East Midlands or Birmingham...or Doncaster; long distance scheduled passengers make the journey to Manchester, or London? Private "leisure" flying still takes place at the Sheffield Aero Club site at Netherthorpe, with its short runways. Business aviation to the area is presumably catered for at Retford/Gamston, which is a fair distance away, or possibly at Finningley?. The topography is against airfield development in the immediate Sheffield area, you tend to have to go south-eastish to find flat land.
Would Sheffield City be suitable as a GA airfield? In my humble opinion, "No", not a place I would want to do single-engine training, in a very built up area, and modern runway safety constraints have been discussed earlier in this thread, limiting larger aircraft. Also, again as discussed, the land will have a value for commercial/industrial development, given its location. The original genesis of Sheffield City airport from the Budge Mining contract to reclaim the coal and other deposits from the then derelict industrial area are too hazy to recall now, and in any event of historical interest only.
Regrettably therefore I do not see any great prospect for a viable fixed wing facility in the immediate environs of Sheffield.
Regards, and apologies for the long post,
EGCA
Sadly the City of Sheffield has a long history of missed opportunities and lack of interest in fixed wing aviation, at least as far as the City Council is concerned. There was an airfield at Norton on the City's southern boundary. Developed during WW1, but long since lost to schools and housing. My father recalls seeing Sir Alan Cobham flying there in the 1930's.
Back in the 1960's the erstwhile "Yorkshire Airport Development Association" concluded that Sheffield would not provide enough traffic for a local airport. (however an International airport at Ferrybridge alongside the A1 was proposed...) The Sheffield Chamber of Commerce reacted by pressing for the urgent provision of an "airstrip" for business flights to and from Sheffield. Various locations came and went, Todwick, Anston, Hady near Chesterfield, and even plans to develop the existing grass airfield at Coal Aston ("EGCA"), however with the latter, development plans suggested by S/Ldr Wallace of Netherthorpe airfield were turned down by Chesterfield RDC, the planning authority.
Industrial concerns in Sheffield such as United Steel and Davy Ashmore were quietly getting on with flying from Coal Aston in the piston twins of that era, Piaggio P166 and Beech Queenair.
Writing in one of the Sheffield papers in 1964 the Assistant Managing Director of United Steel quotes his aircraft as making 108 landings in Sheffield in 1963, and the business aircraft of other industrial concerns making a further 120 landings, I assume mainly at EGCA. Some 50 years on, business aviation has changed, with the emphasis on turbine and jet aircraft needing longer hard runways, undertaking longer distance flights, eg to Europe and beyond.
Unfortunately EGCA would not be suitable for modern business/executive craft, it is a "challenging" grass airfield with a strict movements limit in its ongoing planning consent.
During this 1960's soul searching about air facilities for Sheffield, the City Council came down in favour of a heliport, eventually opening one at Parkwood Springs.
So what is the situation today? Holiday pax need to make the trek to East Midlands or Birmingham...or Doncaster; long distance scheduled passengers make the journey to Manchester, or London? Private "leisure" flying still takes place at the Sheffield Aero Club site at Netherthorpe, with its short runways. Business aviation to the area is presumably catered for at Retford/Gamston, which is a fair distance away, or possibly at Finningley?. The topography is against airfield development in the immediate Sheffield area, you tend to have to go south-eastish to find flat land.
Would Sheffield City be suitable as a GA airfield? In my humble opinion, "No", not a place I would want to do single-engine training, in a very built up area, and modern runway safety constraints have been discussed earlier in this thread, limiting larger aircraft. Also, again as discussed, the land will have a value for commercial/industrial development, given its location. The original genesis of Sheffield City airport from the Budge Mining contract to reclaim the coal and other deposits from the then derelict industrial area are too hazy to recall now, and in any event of historical interest only.
Regrettably therefore I do not see any great prospect for a viable fixed wing facility in the immediate environs of Sheffield.
Regards, and apologies for the long post,
EGCA
Last edited by EGCA; 19th Jan 2013 at 19:53.
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EGCA,
No apology needed, an excellent analysis of the local reality!
The other point with comparisons with Barton is the question of relative land value and planning. The SZD site is surrounded on all but one side by build up area. It therefore makes for a logical case to grant planning permission for an office park, however "bland" that might be! Sadly, some of the other posters here forget that a dead airport is bland too!
Barton on the other hand is on the edge of an urban area, but on three sides you have green fields. I suspect the runway itself is classed as greenbelt too. Therefore the chances of developing offices there are quite a lot lower, so the land is likely to be worth a lot less, thus it remains viable as a GA airfield.
It has been quite clear all along that the plan for SZD is to bring back commercial flights. If that was not the intention, then this thread has been in the wrong place from the start, as it is about airlines and airports, not fields!
No apology needed, an excellent analysis of the local reality!
The other point with comparisons with Barton is the question of relative land value and planning. The SZD site is surrounded on all but one side by build up area. It therefore makes for a logical case to grant planning permission for an office park, however "bland" that might be! Sadly, some of the other posters here forget that a dead airport is bland too!
Barton on the other hand is on the edge of an urban area, but on three sides you have green fields. I suspect the runway itself is classed as greenbelt too. Therefore the chances of developing offices there are quite a lot lower, so the land is likely to be worth a lot less, thus it remains viable as a GA airfield.
It has been quite clear all along that the plan for SZD is to bring back commercial flights. If that was not the intention, then this thread has been in the wrong place from the start, as it is about airlines and airports, not fields!