Sheffield City Airport Petition
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SZD, literally, can't accept anything larger than an Airfix kit ... It's kind of like suggesting that Shoreham-By-Sea jeopardises any investment in Gatwick and/or Cumbernauld jeopardises any investment in both Edinburgh and Glasgow.
Try to get over any conspiracy theories!
Try to get over any conspiracy theories!
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And you think that DSA doesn't accept anything smaller than a 737?
There are PA28s and Cessna 150s at DSA, so a re-opened SZD would compete with DSA on the GA front.
BTW, it's no conspiracy theory from me. I think there's zero chance of SZD re-opening, and people should give up on the idea now before somebody loses a lot of money on it. I'm suggesting that there's no way Peel will sell SZD because it, rightly, wants to protect their investment at DSA and a re-opened SZD would compete with them on GA and business aviation. If Peel don't want to sell then there's nothing anybody can do about it.
But, I have signed the petition because there's a lack of GA-accessible airfields in the UK. One can dream.
There are PA28s and Cessna 150s at DSA, so a re-opened SZD would compete with DSA on the GA front.
BTW, it's no conspiracy theory from me. I think there's zero chance of SZD re-opening, and people should give up on the idea now before somebody loses a lot of money on it. I'm suggesting that there's no way Peel will sell SZD because it, rightly, wants to protect their investment at DSA and a re-opened SZD would compete with them on GA and business aviation. If Peel don't want to sell then there's nothing anybody can do about it.
But, I have signed the petition because there's a lack of GA-accessible airfields in the UK. One can dream.
Last edited by wb9999; 7th Feb 2013 at 11:59.
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An "AIRPORT" of any viability shouldn't need to give two hoots to "Airfix Kits" such as PA28's and Cessna 150's that pay how much per landing fee?
This area is for Airlines, Airports & Routes, not flying clubs and Airfix kits!
I guess we should now realise that Sheffield City shall be seriously viable once it may re-open because it hopes for Piper and Cessna movements and "We'll show DSA what for"
This area is for Airlines, Airports & Routes, not flying clubs and Airfix kits!
I guess we should now realise that Sheffield City shall be seriously viable once it may re-open because it hopes for Piper and Cessna movements and "We'll show DSA what for"
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Phileas Fogg, I think you're totally missing the point.
ANY aircraft that may fly into SZD would be business that potentially is taken from DSA. SZD and DSA are both owned by the same company. That company only wants to keep one of the airfields open. If it was to sell SZD, this would then compete with it's own airfield. Why would any business sell an asset that would then compete directly with itself for the same customer?
Business jets regularly use DSA, and they will be paying hundreds/thousands per landing.
Decent business aviation airports have radar or on-site radio navigation equipment (NDB or VOR) - neither of which SZD had when it was open (and which cost of lot of money to install and maintain). Cambridge, Oxford and Gloucester have radar, Gamston has a VOR and others have an NDB. Without these, SZD will not attract anything bigger than a Cessna 172.
ANY aircraft that may fly into SZD would be business that potentially is taken from DSA. SZD and DSA are both owned by the same company. That company only wants to keep one of the airfields open. If it was to sell SZD, this would then compete with it's own airfield. Why would any business sell an asset that would then compete directly with itself for the same customer?
Business jets regularly use DSA, and they will be paying hundreds/thousands per landing.
Decent business aviation airports have radar or on-site radio navigation equipment (NDB or VOR) - neither of which SZD had when it was open (and which cost of lot of money to install and maintain). Cambridge, Oxford and Gloucester have radar, Gamston has a VOR and others have an NDB. Without these, SZD will not attract anything bigger than a Cessna 172.
Last edited by wb9999; 7th Feb 2013 at 12:19.
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Robin Hood DSA is not convenient really for Shefiield. DSA seems to be just charters and lots of Polish flights for all the polish community in the area. The airport/region in crying out for some schedules to Amsterdam or London, LGW or LCY, for connecting flights. DSA at the moment is doing little it seems to attract or cater for the business community. Its just holiday flights and migrant worker flights.
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This area is for Airlines, Airports & Routes, not flying clubs and Airfix kits!
I am baffled as to what your point of view is, and whether you support SZD. Earlier in the thread you were against the idea, now you are arguing with me, who is supporting your argument earlier. Are you just arguing for the sake of it?
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wb999,
No, I'm not missing the point, I'm offering unbiased opinion based on the fact that I have never been to SZD, I am not from the area and my only experience of DSA was when I flew past in one of a formation of four C-130's with a VC10 chasing our ass during a particular flypast of 1977.
I think you're missing the point, you say that the company only wants to keep one of the airfields open ... Well only one of the airfields is open and it's losing, by all accounts, a significant amount of money.
Would you be prepared to personally financially support the re-opening of SZD?
I very much doubt it!
No, I'm not missing the point, I'm offering unbiased opinion based on the fact that I have never been to SZD, I am not from the area and my only experience of DSA was when I flew past in one of a formation of four C-130's with a VC10 chasing our ass during a particular flypast of 1977.
I think you're missing the point, you say that the company only wants to keep one of the airfields open ... Well only one of the airfields is open and it's losing, by all accounts, a significant amount of money.
Would you be prepared to personally financially support the re-opening of SZD?
I very much doubt it!
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wb999,
I'm in favour of anything that is needed and will make money.
Such as this island on which I live, it has developed to the stage whereas it needs a supermarket on the island, we need paved surfaced roads on the island which is something they are working upon but do we need a 2nd airport upon the island ..... Hell no, we only have four ATR-72 movements per week, why on earth would we need two airports to service so few aeroplane movements?
And ... P.S. I'm not arguing, I've got better things to do fighting fires here with the locals daily ... I'm just discussing.
I'm in favour of anything that is needed and will make money.
Such as this island on which I live, it has developed to the stage whereas it needs a supermarket on the island, we need paved surfaced roads on the island which is something they are working upon but do we need a 2nd airport upon the island ..... Hell no, we only have four ATR-72 movements per week, why on earth would we need two airports to service so few aeroplane movements?
And ... P.S. I'm not arguing, I've got better things to do fighting fires here with the locals daily ... I'm just discussing.
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Phileas, you are definitely missing the point -which is that it is immaterial who/what could fly to a re-opened SZD as Peel will never sell on the basis it will harm DSA. This is why DSA is a material factor in SZD's future. If DSA did not exist or Peel did not own both then any SZD may be available for sale.
I can't spell it out any simpler. Hopefully you will understand this time.
I personally would not put any money into SZD, because it will be money wasted. The airport was not viable and will not be viable in the future.
You appear to agree with what I say, but then disagree about the exact same point, which is why I don't understand what your view is.
I can't spell it out any simpler. Hopefully you will understand this time.
I personally would not put any money into SZD, because it will be money wasted. The airport was not viable and will not be viable in the future.
You appear to agree with what I say, but then disagree about the exact same point, which is why I don't understand what your view is.
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Quote: "Why would any business sell an asset that would then compete directly with itself for the same customer?"
It would do so only when required to by law (monopolies commission), e.g. LHR-LGW-STN and GLA-EDI, obviously not applicable in this case.
Quote: "Robin Hood DSA is not convenient really for Shefiield. DSA seems to be just charters and lots of Polish flights for all the polish community in the area. The airport/region in crying out for some schedules to Amsterdam or London, LGW or LCY, for connecting flights. DSA at the moment is doing little it seems to attract or cater for the business community. Its just holiday flights and migrant worker flights."
Maybe that's where SZD went wrong: no connections to London.
LHR rather than LGW for onward connections, but unachievable because LHR is full.
LCY for point to point city centre-city centre business flights would probably been the way forward. However both LHR and LCY are expensive airports and there may have been inadequate traffic for this to be viable.
Maybe it's the same situation at DSA?
It would do so only when required to by law (monopolies commission), e.g. LHR-LGW-STN and GLA-EDI, obviously not applicable in this case.
Quote: "Robin Hood DSA is not convenient really for Shefiield. DSA seems to be just charters and lots of Polish flights for all the polish community in the area. The airport/region in crying out for some schedules to Amsterdam or London, LGW or LCY, for connecting flights. DSA at the moment is doing little it seems to attract or cater for the business community. Its just holiday flights and migrant worker flights."
Maybe that's where SZD went wrong: no connections to London.
LHR rather than LGW for onward connections, but unachievable because LHR is full.
LCY for point to point city centre-city centre business flights would probably been the way forward. However both LHR and LCY are expensive airports and there may have been inadequate traffic for this to be viable.
Maybe it's the same situation at DSA?
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 7th Feb 2013 at 17:20.
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eltonioni, yes you are correct in that they had one. Apologies. Although it's not currently in use (if it is still there), as it's not on the CAA charts, so it might need a lot of money spending on it to recommission it.
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I understand that NDB's are especially cheap, within the reach of the "puddle jumper" airfields with Cessna's and Pipers that the erstwhile "if I can't use it you can't have it" Victorian balloonist thinks are beneath him. 
eltonioni
NDBs may be cheap to buy, but to operate one in the UK you have to be a CAA Certified Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP) which will significantly increase the price, and you will keep paying every year for the privilege of maintaining the Certification.
NDBs may be cheap to buy, but to operate one in the UK you have to be a CAA Certified Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP) which will significantly increase the price, and you will keep paying every year for the privilege of maintaining the Certification.
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wb9999 -
I guess we're all agreed that discussing DSA and SZD simultaneously is inevitable. So a quick question about viability:
SZD is often labelled 'unviable' (evidence never seems to be offered) but was only available to airline traffic for 5 years (RFFS downgraded to Category 1 in 2002). But Robin Hood made a nett loss of £11.6m last year (its seventh year of operations). Passenger numbers continue to fall. The airlines seem to have little faith in it. So... surely Robin Hood is currently unviable?
How long will a company like Peel continue to accept this situation?
I guess we're all agreed that discussing DSA and SZD simultaneously is inevitable. So a quick question about viability:
SZD is often labelled 'unviable' (evidence never seems to be offered) but was only available to airline traffic for 5 years (RFFS downgraded to Category 1 in 2002). But Robin Hood made a nett loss of £11.6m last year (its seventh year of operations). Passenger numbers continue to fall. The airlines seem to have little faith in it. So... surely Robin Hood is currently unviable?
How long will a company like Peel continue to accept this situation?
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Reality check....three points:
First:-If Finningley is not busy with IT traffic, maybe, just maybe, there isn't any great demand from (Sheffield) local tour companies to fly more of their customers from Finningley, presumably they are happy to bus them to--I assume--East Midlands, which at present probably is about the same journey time from Sheffield via the M1, and may allow for a pick-up of pax in Chesterfield along the way. Is there a current campaign in Sheffield for more IT destinations from Finningley?
Second:-Further, is there any current campaign in Sheffield for scheduled destinations from Finningley? Business people in South Yorkshire presumably do fly to Europe on business, how do they cope at present? Are they shouting from the rooftops for scheduled flights from Finningley?
Third:- Finally, and reverting to Sheffield City, does anyone local to the Steel City detect any great outcry at the lack of a GA facility more local than say Sandtoft, Netherthorpe, Retford/Gamston?
I respectfully suspect that the answer to all three points is : "NO".
EGCA
Second:-Further, is there any current campaign in Sheffield for scheduled destinations from Finningley? Business people in South Yorkshire presumably do fly to Europe on business, how do they cope at present? Are they shouting from the rooftops for scheduled flights from Finningley?
Third:- Finally, and reverting to Sheffield City, does anyone local to the Steel City detect any great outcry at the lack of a GA facility more local than say Sandtoft, Netherthorpe, Retford/Gamston?
I respectfully suspect that the answer to all three points is : "NO".
EGCA
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Norman Normal, for viability you have to look at future potential as well as current/past performance.
DSA and SZD are very different airports, with very different potential (assuming SZD did re-open).
SZD would be aiming for a small market and competing with other small regional airports across the country with better facilities (longer runways and radar). The STOL market is very small and limited, with high fares - and operators that want radar. SZD tried business and general aviation, and that wasn't a success.
DSA is in a very different situation. The airport has the potential to handle any aircraft to any destination, in pretty much any weather, with the facilities that were sadly lacking at SZD. DSA has been unlucky in it's timing in starting operations. The economy started deteriorating in 2007 - just as passenger numbers were approaching decent levels for them. But the future potential is there, when the economy improves.
Liverpool (also owned by Peel) has never made a profit since it opened, but is a popular airport with many routes. And, if you go back 15-20 years ago, the future of all regional airports did not look good - and most had been operating for 30+ years. And had it not been for the rise in popularity of low-cost airlines, many would be struggling now.
SZD was reportedly losing £400k a year BEFORE Peel took over and BEFORE the airlines vacated, and the original developer/operator was struggling financially.
DSA and SZD are very different airports, with very different potential (assuming SZD did re-open).
SZD would be aiming for a small market and competing with other small regional airports across the country with better facilities (longer runways and radar). The STOL market is very small and limited, with high fares - and operators that want radar. SZD tried business and general aviation, and that wasn't a success.
DSA is in a very different situation. The airport has the potential to handle any aircraft to any destination, in pretty much any weather, with the facilities that were sadly lacking at SZD. DSA has been unlucky in it's timing in starting operations. The economy started deteriorating in 2007 - just as passenger numbers were approaching decent levels for them. But the future potential is there, when the economy improves.
Liverpool (also owned by Peel) has never made a profit since it opened, but is a popular airport with many routes. And, if you go back 15-20 years ago, the future of all regional airports did not look good - and most had been operating for 30+ years. And had it not been for the rise in popularity of low-cost airlines, many would be struggling now.
SZD was reportedly losing £400k a year BEFORE Peel took over and BEFORE the airlines vacated, and the original developer/operator was struggling financially.
Last edited by wb9999; 7th Feb 2013 at 20:02.
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FDF wrote:
Air routes from DSA to any airport in London were never considered, as the train takes only 1h 40 and operates at least twice an hour. The rail service from Sheffield to London takes just over two hours. Presumably MAN-LHR survives as there is a greater catchment and more interlining. Even then VLM's service to LCY died.
The resurrection of LBA's BA service to LHR has received a great deal of scepticism that it is there as a slot-holder - see that thread.
EGCA wrote:
It doesn't really work like that though. I would be delighted if there were flights I could use on business to Brussels about six times a year either from Sheffield or Doncaster. But I doubt there are sufficient potential business flyers from South Yorkshire to justify this - or any other destinations, surrounded as we are by MAN, LBA and EMA denying us a wider catchment. This is not helped by Eurostar moving to St Pancras, so we can be on a train to Brussels or Paris within an hour of arriving in London, with a choice of many departures each day.
There is also no specific linked industry in South Yorkshire like oil or chemicals which keeps the KLM services from MME and HUY going.
Maybe that's where SZD went wrong: no connections to London.
LHR rather than LGW for onward connections, but unachievable because LHR is full.
LCY for point to point city centre-city centre business flights would probably been the way forward. However both LHR and LCY are expensive airports and there may have been inadequate traffic for this to be viable.
Maybe it's the same situation at DSA?
LHR rather than LGW for onward connections, but unachievable because LHR is full.
LCY for point to point city centre-city centre business flights would probably been the way forward. However both LHR and LCY are expensive airports and there may have been inadequate traffic for this to be viable.
Maybe it's the same situation at DSA?
The resurrection of LBA's BA service to LHR has received a great deal of scepticism that it is there as a slot-holder - see that thread.
EGCA wrote:
Second:-Further, is there any current campaign in Sheffield for scheduled destinations from Finningley? Business people in South Yorkshire presumably do fly to Europe on business, how do they cope at present? Are they shouting from the rooftops for scheduled flights from Finningley?
There is also no specific linked industry in South Yorkshire like oil or chemicals which keeps the KLM services from MME and HUY going.
Last edited by johnnychips; 7th Feb 2013 at 22:58. Reason: Bad English
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wb9999,
You keep referring to an "SZD" sale yet it seems you accept that any re-opened SZD would be a loss making disaster and wouldn't stay in business for very long at all.
So what is the point, why sell and/or re-open something that lost a bucket load of money causing it to close the first time around for it lose even more money and close a second time around?
You keep referring to an "SZD" sale yet it seems you accept that any re-opened SZD would be a loss making disaster and wouldn't stay in business for very long at all.
So what is the point, why sell and/or re-open something that lost a bucket load of money causing it to close the first time around for it lose even more money and close a second time around?
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wb9999 -
Where to start?
The whole point about airports such as SZD is that they are there to link with other regional airports (as well as hubs), not compete with them (BRS - LBA, ABZ - HUY etc.)
Second, what does it matter how long the runway is if there aren't enough people in the local catchment population to fill aeroplanes?
I assume you're aware of the Ciudad Real fiasco? 4,000m runway, and yet, surprise, surprise, no passengers. Result - opened October 2008, closed April 2012.
Obviously, DSA is not doing as badly as Ciudad Real, but it's clearly not making money either.
The sad fact is that DSA and SZD will both be catering to niche markets. Unfortunately for DSA, its niche markets do not come with big margins, and its costs are outweighing revenue in a big way. SZD on the other hand is much better-placed to attract high-margin traffic, and to make money by combining that traffic with other on-airport while keeping costs low thanks to smaller infrastructure.
Where to start?
The whole point about airports such as SZD is that they are there to link with other regional airports (as well as hubs), not compete with them (BRS - LBA, ABZ - HUY etc.)
Second, what does it matter how long the runway is if there aren't enough people in the local catchment population to fill aeroplanes?
I assume you're aware of the Ciudad Real fiasco? 4,000m runway, and yet, surprise, surprise, no passengers. Result - opened October 2008, closed April 2012.
Obviously, DSA is not doing as badly as Ciudad Real, but it's clearly not making money either.
The sad fact is that DSA and SZD will both be catering to niche markets. Unfortunately for DSA, its niche markets do not come with big margins, and its costs are outweighing revenue in a big way. SZD on the other hand is much better-placed to attract high-margin traffic, and to make money by combining that traffic with other on-airport while keeping costs low thanks to smaller infrastructure.