Malev in financial trouble
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jabird,
Obviously MALEV's website is down, I got that map from searching in Google Images, not sure if it is recent or not though.
Slightly off topic someone, only yesterday, asked me for advice regarding travelling to Moscow and St Petersburg, a two centre holiday.
On CHEAP FLIGHTS | Find Airline Tickets & Discount Airfares | Fly.com I checked out an open jaw return flying outward MAN/MOW and returning LED/MAN for some random dates in March ... return fares started as low as £187.00 and without a LoCo in sight!!!
That's the sort of services these mid Europe carriers offer, this is the sort of business they're there for, it's not all point to point and 189 people at a time.
Obviously MALEV's website is down, I got that map from searching in Google Images, not sure if it is recent or not though.
Slightly off topic someone, only yesterday, asked me for advice regarding travelling to Moscow and St Petersburg, a two centre holiday.
On CHEAP FLIGHTS | Find Airline Tickets & Discount Airfares | Fly.com I checked out an open jaw return flying outward MAN/MOW and returning LED/MAN for some random dates in March ... return fares started as low as £187.00 and without a LoCo in sight!!!
That's the sort of services these mid Europe carriers offer, this is the sort of business they're there for, it's not all point to point and 189 people at a time.
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PF,
You didn't say where they were routed via 
I don't doubt the usefulness of an east-west hub for one moment. My question was whether or not such a hub can exist in a way that makes a profit for all concerned.
I don't expect loco to Russia anytime soon from the UK - see thread on Caucasus for a bit more on that. Nor do I expect the locos to provide all things to all people - but they still have their use, look how quickly MOL has been to "rescue" (out of the goodness of his heart of course) BUD routes - obviously much easier in the off season of course!
CSA used to feed into PRG from STN, BHX, MAN and iirc EDI, offering the very kind of connections you mention - now all gone. LO & OS might offer something useful, but only via London.
So if there's a place to serve these markets that is still to the west of CDG & AMS, surely it is CPH or FRA? Germany already has many more flights to Russia - simple question of geography makes more sense to support such routes (iirc 7 options from FRA with LH alone).
return fares started as low as £187.00 and without a LoCo in sight!!!
I don't doubt the usefulness of an east-west hub for one moment. My question was whether or not such a hub can exist in a way that makes a profit for all concerned.
I don't expect loco to Russia anytime soon from the UK - see thread on Caucasus for a bit more on that. Nor do I expect the locos to provide all things to all people - but they still have their use, look how quickly MOL has been to "rescue" (out of the goodness of his heart of course) BUD routes - obviously much easier in the off season of course!
CSA used to feed into PRG from STN, BHX, MAN and iirc EDI, offering the very kind of connections you mention - now all gone. LO & OS might offer something useful, but only via London.
So if there's a place to serve these markets that is still to the west of CDG & AMS, surely it is CPH or FRA? Germany already has many more flights to Russia - simple question of geography makes more sense to support such routes (iirc 7 options from FRA with LH alone).
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jabird,
I didn't mention the carrier or where they were routing via because I appreciate the sensitivities of (unpaid for) commercial advertising!
You talk of LoCo's to Russia ... here we go again, please don't believe for one minute that the all the travelling public want to travel with a, so called, LoCo because they don't, particularly when full service airlines can, often, be cheaper than these so called LoCo's.
Yes, I appreciate airlines need to profit hence, in the case of B737's operating to/from, let's say, Budapest, there are only so many people that want to travel to/from BUD so 'let's' fill the aircraft up with thru connections.
October 2011 I travelled LHR-HKG-CEB with a particular Hong Kong based carrier, you might guess the one, but if I'd only wanted to travel LHR-HKG the fare would have been some 30% more expensive than travelling LHR-HKG-CEB ... but the airline are still in business and presumably making a profit.
And it was commonplace when travelling with a particular Zurich based carrier, travelling LHR/BHX/MAN to/from, let's say, Italy via ZRH was normally and significantly cheaper than flying just to/from ZRH.
Have all these carriers got it so wrong?
I didn't mention the carrier or where they were routing via because I appreciate the sensitivities of (unpaid for) commercial advertising!
You talk of LoCo's to Russia ... here we go again, please don't believe for one minute that the all the travelling public want to travel with a, so called, LoCo because they don't, particularly when full service airlines can, often, be cheaper than these so called LoCo's.
Yes, I appreciate airlines need to profit hence, in the case of B737's operating to/from, let's say, Budapest, there are only so many people that want to travel to/from BUD so 'let's' fill the aircraft up with thru connections.
October 2011 I travelled LHR-HKG-CEB with a particular Hong Kong based carrier, you might guess the one, but if I'd only wanted to travel LHR-HKG the fare would have been some 30% more expensive than travelling LHR-HKG-CEB ... but the airline are still in business and presumably making a profit.
And it was commonplace when travelling with a particular Zurich based carrier, travelling LHR/BHX/MAN to/from, let's say, Italy via ZRH was normally and significantly cheaper than flying just to/from ZRH.
Have all these carriers got it so wrong?
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PF,
I fully agree with everything you say in your last post.
(I could point you to other stuff I've said on that very subject, but I respect forum rules too. You could have mentioned the airline as I don't think that's an issue on a forum about airlines & routes).
I just don't think there's enough room in the market for another Malev, especially using a similar sized frame that the very locos you quite reasonably don't like are using.
As it happens, let's say I did want to go to MOW next month, from BHX, my local airport. Malev couldn't have helped anyway - unless a private backer came along and pumped some funding in for a new fleet, including the very regionals we both agree would be needed to make it work.
Whilst I agree about connections supplementing o&d, within Europe at least, most hubs are based much more around the latter than the former (possible exceptions FRA & AMS based on population, but they both have massive hinterlands and key business centres).
So it would be much more natural to be fed through WAW, but where is the inbound from BHX, or anywhere in UK apart from LHR?
In one respect, I will stand corrected - I had thought BUD was quite a bit smaller than PRG, when it is actually slightly larger (both in 1-2m bracket), and respective countries both around 10m. However, economically, Czech Rep is some way ahead, and I would imagine Prague is still a much bigger tourist city. I'll declare a slight bias - my maternal grandmother was from Prague.
Either way - OK dumped their UK regionals some while ago, and they don't do LHR either. For a transfer hub to be useful, it needs to be fed from the regional cities aswell as from London.
So whilst I don't doubt the potential usefulness of PRG, BUD, WAW - or anywhere else in this region as a transfer point, it is only a facility that can be offered by the right airline with the right fleet.
And I'm afraid, that clearly wasn't Malev.
I fully agree with everything you say in your last post.
(I could point you to other stuff I've said on that very subject, but I respect forum rules too. You could have mentioned the airline as I don't think that's an issue on a forum about airlines & routes).
I just don't think there's enough room in the market for another Malev, especially using a similar sized frame that the very locos you quite reasonably don't like are using.
As it happens, let's say I did want to go to MOW next month, from BHX, my local airport. Malev couldn't have helped anyway - unless a private backer came along and pumped some funding in for a new fleet, including the very regionals we both agree would be needed to make it work.
Whilst I agree about connections supplementing o&d, within Europe at least, most hubs are based much more around the latter than the former (possible exceptions FRA & AMS based on population, but they both have massive hinterlands and key business centres).
So it would be much more natural to be fed through WAW, but where is the inbound from BHX, or anywhere in UK apart from LHR?
In one respect, I will stand corrected - I had thought BUD was quite a bit smaller than PRG, when it is actually slightly larger (both in 1-2m bracket), and respective countries both around 10m. However, economically, Czech Rep is some way ahead, and I would imagine Prague is still a much bigger tourist city. I'll declare a slight bias - my maternal grandmother was from Prague.
Either way - OK dumped their UK regionals some while ago, and they don't do LHR either. For a transfer hub to be useful, it needs to be fed from the regional cities aswell as from London.
So whilst I don't doubt the potential usefulness of PRG, BUD, WAW - or anywhere else in this region as a transfer point, it is only a facility that can be offered by the right airline with the right fleet.
And I'm afraid, that clearly wasn't Malev.
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jabird,
I'm not familiar with the precise problems that caused MALEV so much debt but, only a few years ago, I became aware that the national carrier of Romania was/is lumbered with so many staff, compared against size of fleet, that they were/are the subject of ridicule ..... and once such staffing levels are in place, particularly amongst Flight Operations personnel, they can be difficult to shift.
Sabena Flight Operations personnel had such a bad reputation that many an operator wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in the years that followed, SN Airlines replaced Sabena with, I'm guessing, a much leaner operation, gone is all the Flight Operations seniority, inflated salaries and, perhaps, troublemakers and/or militancy and, since merging with Virgin Express, has made a go of it.
One could say that such a small country as Belgium, sandwiched between Air France, KLM and Lufthansa, there was no need any longer for a Belgium national carrier, well if that was said then it seems SN Brussels Airlines have proved any nayer's wrong, are you so sure that a new and leaner Hungarian national airline couldn't make a go of things?
And might you be suggesting that if anything were to happen to the UK national carrier then the UK travelling public would settle for travelling with the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and an Irish low cost carrier that has an appalling reputation?
I'm not familiar with the precise problems that caused MALEV so much debt but, only a few years ago, I became aware that the national carrier of Romania was/is lumbered with so many staff, compared against size of fleet, that they were/are the subject of ridicule ..... and once such staffing levels are in place, particularly amongst Flight Operations personnel, they can be difficult to shift.
Sabena Flight Operations personnel had such a bad reputation that many an operator wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in the years that followed, SN Airlines replaced Sabena with, I'm guessing, a much leaner operation, gone is all the Flight Operations seniority, inflated salaries and, perhaps, troublemakers and/or militancy and, since merging with Virgin Express, has made a go of it.
One could say that such a small country as Belgium, sandwiched between Air France, KLM and Lufthansa, there was no need any longer for a Belgium national carrier, well if that was said then it seems SN Brussels Airlines have proved any nayer's wrong, are you so sure that a new and leaner Hungarian national airline couldn't make a go of things?
And might you be suggesting that if anything were to happen to the UK national carrier then the UK travelling public would settle for travelling with the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and an Irish low cost carrier that has an appalling reputation?
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This week's Flight, quite unusually, chooses to list carriers they see as doomed by EU Commission actually implementing the Competition Rules passed by Ministers. They choose to list the proud owners of Lingus and TAP as desperate to unload, both seen as of interest only to IAG. They choose to cite Air Malta and Adria as on life support.
In 1988 even before we could be our own travel agency online, a Prof. at Cranfield U. forecast 4 global carriers plus a bunch of bugsmashers. He coined the name Royal Ameripore A/L. Today they are Star, OneWorld and Skyteam -each of which is one carrier when we construct multiple sectors on the site.
There is no point in railing against LoCo "bad reputation". They operate bus, not limo. If they receive taxpayers' munificence it is by ports' invitation - such as in subsidised charges. If firm A can offer you a service without grasping your taxes, then you would be foolish to patronise firm B who your taxes make fat and dumb. The same Flight piece notes Air France's inability to understand that.
In 1988 even before we could be our own travel agency online, a Prof. at Cranfield U. forecast 4 global carriers plus a bunch of bugsmashers. He coined the name Royal Ameripore A/L. Today they are Star, OneWorld and Skyteam -each of which is one carrier when we construct multiple sectors on the site.
There is no point in railing against LoCo "bad reputation". They operate bus, not limo. If they receive taxpayers' munificence it is by ports' invitation - such as in subsidised charges. If firm A can offer you a service without grasping your taxes, then you would be foolish to patronise firm B who your taxes make fat and dumb. The same Flight piece notes Air France's inability to understand that.
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tornadoken - exactly.
PF - You can't compare BRU with BUD, totally different motivations to travel, totally different economies. Now I was about to say 'where was the Hungarian empire (oops)' - but seriously, Brussels Airlines serve around 20 African destinations, most of which are not served from LHR. They have a mixed fleet, so they are a totally different kettle of fish, compared to what Malev were.
Could an airline operate a network of routes not covered by the likes of Wizz / Ryan from BUD? As I said before, maybe something along the lines of Flybe Nordic - but even that is still feeding a bigger parent.
Where is there a hub operation based entirely on sub 150 seaters - excluding island hoppers? Did AF not have such a facility at CFE, now long gone?
PF - You can't compare BRU with BUD, totally different motivations to travel, totally different economies. Now I was about to say 'where was the Hungarian empire (oops)' - but seriously, Brussels Airlines serve around 20 African destinations, most of which are not served from LHR. They have a mixed fleet, so they are a totally different kettle of fish, compared to what Malev were.
Could an airline operate a network of routes not covered by the likes of Wizz / Ryan from BUD? As I said before, maybe something along the lines of Flybe Nordic - but even that is still feeding a bigger parent.
Where is there a hub operation based entirely on sub 150 seaters - excluding island hoppers? Did AF not have such a facility at CFE, now long gone?
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However the steadily rising cost of fuel and the emergence of LCCs (with consequent impact on passengers' price expectations) has made it harder and harder for this kind of operation to stay competitive...
Paxing All Over The World
- A new mode of transport begins: Ship/train/plane/coach/car
- A second route or competition on the first opens
- Prices and service quality go up and down but reach a balance
- Situation persists and becomes 'the norm' some new companies start but are not able to gain a strong enough place, or work small routes out of direct competition
- The rules are changed: by govt or by new technology
- Several new companies start up and prices drop, everyone very excited
- Prices and service quality go up and down but reach a balance
- Situation persists and becomes 'the norm' ...
- Repeat.
Big Six suppliers heading for bumper profits and bonuses as more than 5.5 million UK homes hit by fuel poverty.
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Well one that springs to mind is 'just down the road' from Budapest in Timisoara!
TSR may only handle c. 1m pax pa, but I'd say it kicks above its weight considering the city itself is only 300k. I'd love to know its split between o&d and transfer.
I bet the PSC at BUD is still quite a bit higher though. Your other problem would be that a lot of the 'goodwill' for Malev is already sitting in SNN. The locos have cherrypicked the good routes. So you would be left with serving niche destinations, feeding other people's hubs that FR & W6 don't want to go near (CPH, ZRH etc) and then going head to head on routes with enough room for 2 or more carriers.
It is still very tall order.
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jabird,
In a previous life I was in TSR on a number of occasions on 'Carpatair' business and TSR is most definately a hub operation and Carpatair personnel even refer to each, morning and afternoon, turnaround of the fleet as "the hub".
Each night the fleet overnights at these regional airports and each morning descends upon TSR where the punters all play musical aeroplanes before the fleet then head off to their 'western' destinations before a reverse of this said operation takes place each afternoon before the fleet head off for another night in the 'outback'.
To see their, then, fleet of something like 13 S2000's to, particularly, arrive TSR as if they are a squadron is quite something to see, I've ridden the jump seat in to TSR, TSR doesn't have radar and with something like 13 PDQ inbounds ATC just do the radio whilst the fleet maintain their own 3 minutes seperation which is just enough time for each aircraft to land then backtrack the runway and vacate before the next one lands etc.
I've also stood in the TSR terminal more times than I care to remember and not so many passengers join at TSR, it's mainly a hub operation.
And not forgetting the Moldavian Airlines Home Page side of the Carpatair operation!
But ..... correct me if I am wrong but didn't Lufthansa build the DUS hub on sub 150 seaters and it is only through popularity that 150+ seaters may now be part of the DUS hub?
I would often be transitting thru DUS and I recall it being, pretty much, LH CRJ's, 146's & ATR's with just an odd B737 or similar ... to travel all the way BHX/KBP/BHX on 50 seater pocket rockets was quite an experience.
P.S. I don't believe Carpatair have ever operated a UK schedule as UK is beyond the effective range of a S2000 and, more recently, perhaps, a Fokker is too large for such a route. They tried S2000's to/from CDG, a long way in a Saab and, quite often, they found themselves utilizing a F100 (they didn't have F70's at the time) on the route but for S2000 loads!
In a previous life I was in TSR on a number of occasions on 'Carpatair' business and TSR is most definately a hub operation and Carpatair personnel even refer to each, morning and afternoon, turnaround of the fleet as "the hub".
Each night the fleet overnights at these regional airports and each morning descends upon TSR where the punters all play musical aeroplanes before the fleet then head off to their 'western' destinations before a reverse of this said operation takes place each afternoon before the fleet head off for another night in the 'outback'.
To see their, then, fleet of something like 13 S2000's to, particularly, arrive TSR as if they are a squadron is quite something to see, I've ridden the jump seat in to TSR, TSR doesn't have radar and with something like 13 PDQ inbounds ATC just do the radio whilst the fleet maintain their own 3 minutes seperation which is just enough time for each aircraft to land then backtrack the runway and vacate before the next one lands etc.
I've also stood in the TSR terminal more times than I care to remember and not so many passengers join at TSR, it's mainly a hub operation.
And not forgetting the Moldavian Airlines Home Page side of the Carpatair operation!
But ..... correct me if I am wrong but didn't Lufthansa build the DUS hub on sub 150 seaters and it is only through popularity that 150+ seaters may now be part of the DUS hub?
I would often be transitting thru DUS and I recall it being, pretty much, LH CRJ's, 146's & ATR's with just an odd B737 or similar ... to travel all the way BHX/KBP/BHX on 50 seater pocket rockets was quite an experience.
P.S. I don't believe Carpatair have ever operated a UK schedule as UK is beyond the effective range of a S2000 and, more recently, perhaps, a Fokker is too large for such a route. They tried S2000's to/from CDG, a long way in a Saab and, quite often, they found themselves utilizing a F100 (they didn't have F70's at the time) on the route but for S2000 loads!
Last edited by Phileas Fogg; 11th Feb 2012 at 03:40. Reason: To add P.S.
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Had you noticed that Carpatair are starting a base on 26/03 in Chisinau with a B733 operating to Italian destinations. Anyhow, sorry for thread drift, this is the Malev thread.