Aer Lingus Regional
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I hope your right, but it's difficult to see Flybe take up the Manchester route when EIR could not make it work. Flybe also have their own financial challenges and are not currently in the risk taking mode.
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I hope your right, but it's difficult to see Flybe take up the Manchester route when EIR could not make it work. Flybe also have their own financial challenges and are not currently in the risk taking mode.
Now I don't even if it is possible with runway in WAT but could an EZY A319 operate restricted on a 1433m runway. I know way to big aircraft however with lower fares passengers would fill it. If possible it would be a great way for EZY to get back into Irish market as they could not be touched by Ryanair etc. I know very unlightly to happen though.
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Aer Lingus Regional
A very sad day for Waterford given that had only got the EI brand last summer was a positive development. However, I would suggest that Waterford pays its way for Aer Arann but Dublin and the expanding business under Aer Lingus regional from UK provincial airports is now seen as a more attractive proposition, unfortunately the regional airport bears the brunt of this. Hopefully they can fill the gap with at least a daily Luton rotation.
EI-BUD
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Irish Laddie,
There really is no other airline in the fold that could do this in my view successfully, ideally the runway could accomodate 319 and hence easyJet assuming easyJet wanted to do it, but that is not worth talking about.
BE would ideal as you say and they are coming up against a lot of challenges on many routes, and a route such as this is most unlikely to attract competition, and these are the regional niche type markets that BE should be after, developing same.
Current operation is small ex LTN so to get a day return to London area would require a night stop or a small base.....
EI-BUD
There really is no other airline in the fold that could do this in my view successfully, ideally the runway could accomodate 319 and hence easyJet assuming easyJet wanted to do it, but that is not worth talking about.
BE would ideal as you say and they are coming up against a lot of challenges on many routes, and a route such as this is most unlikely to attract competition, and these are the regional niche type markets that BE should be after, developing same.
Current operation is small ex LTN so to get a day return to London area would require a night stop or a small base.....
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Agree completely, aside from Flybe there wouldent seem to be many other mainstream operators avaialble.
I know a base from day 1 would be unliklely but I think I'm right in saying that prior to the WAT RE base opening in 2007, there were twice daily WAT-LTN flights operating in a W pattern from Galway. Off the top of my head departures from WAT were around 1130 and 1730.
Been flying through WAT for years but was just so impressed by the Dash 8 on WAT-BHX it would be fantastic to have them on WAT-LTN in the not too distant future.
I know a base from day 1 would be unliklely but I think I'm right in saying that prior to the WAT RE base opening in 2007, there were twice daily WAT-LTN flights operating in a W pattern from Galway. Off the top of my head departures from WAT were around 1130 and 1730.
Been flying through WAT for years but was just so impressed by the Dash 8 on WAT-BHX it would be fantastic to have them on WAT-LTN in the not too distant future.
Last edited by irish laddie; 5th Nov 2012 at 19:59.
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Rose-tinted spectacles there LTNman, you don't know that the route would have done much better from LTN. I mean, businesses aren't stupid - if there was big money to be made from WAT-LTN, Arann/EIR would have gone back. SEN is now successful enough for Stobarts to not worry about it.
Yes, at one time LTN-WAT was probably doing great but things have moved on...the Irish economy has gone to pot, UK leisure travel has declined and there is improved access between Waterford & Dublin
As an aside, historically Essex has been the terminus of WAT flights, not LTN. LTN only ended up with the route because it is where Euroceltic(?) set up and when they went Arann carried on.
Yes, at one time LTN-WAT was probably doing great but things have moved on...the Irish economy has gone to pot, UK leisure travel has declined and there is improved access between Waterford & Dublin
As an aside, historically Essex has been the terminus of WAT flights, not LTN. LTN only ended up with the route because it is where Euroceltic(?) set up and when they went Arann carried on.
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They were doing alot better from Luton, as the route had run for years and was Aer Arann's biggest money earner. Waterford Airport was horrified when the route shifted and their worst fears have now come true.
Stobart invested in Aer Arran as it needed an airline to operate out of Southend and that all Stobart had to do was shift business away from Luton to Southend and the passengers would follow except they didn’t and numbers plummeted. I assume this was because they found Southend Seaside Airport to be too difficult to get to with extended travel times compared to their trips to Luton. It would seem that Waterford passengers don't live close to Southend.
I stand to be corrected but that statement is not true. Ryanair introduced the route to Luton which they used to operate into Gatwick. To my knowledge it has never operated from any airport in Essex until it moved to Southend around 18 months ago.
Stobart invested in Aer Arran as it needed an airline to operate out of Southend and that all Stobart had to do was shift business away from Luton to Southend and the passengers would follow except they didn’t and numbers plummeted. I assume this was because they found Southend Seaside Airport to be too difficult to get to with extended travel times compared to their trips to Luton. It would seem that Waterford passengers don't live close to Southend.
As an aside, historically Essex has been the terminus of WAT flights, not LTN. LTN only ended up with the route because it is where Euroceltic(?) set up and when they went Arann carried on.
I stand to be corrected but that statement is not true. Ryanair introduced the route to Luton which they used to operate into Gatwick. To my knowledge it has never operated from any airport in Essex until it moved to Southend around 18 months ago.
Last edited by LTNman; 6th Nov 2012 at 04:23.
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LTNman,
Morning, Yes Ryanair's first ever flight in 1985 was from Waterford Airport to London Gatwick. This was operated by an Embraer Bainderante, which was nice aircraft! Complete with a 3 R's on the tail as the FR logo.
This operated for some time moving to HS748s and then onto ATR beyond that. It was operated to LTN most of the time until it eventually in 1991 was transferred to STN when the new terminal opened (it may have moved a little later, but 1991 was the date for the shift of focus from LTN over to STN for FR).
Manx Airlines in the guise of British Airways express operated a daily J41 to STN from Waterford in the 90's a while after FR pulled the route, which FR did as the ATR was being withdrawn. The STN route by FR operated from 1991, at a point when FR had one ATR left, which did GWY STN and WAT STN. The single airport did multiple flights each day.
Aside from STN and LTN and the initial LGW WAT has had Aer Lingus daily SH6 for a few years on the Dublin route, approx late 80s and Euroceltic did the same routes plus UK routes for a brief period.
Lets hope some good news comes quickly.
EI-BUD
Morning, Yes Ryanair's first ever flight in 1985 was from Waterford Airport to London Gatwick. This was operated by an Embraer Bainderante, which was nice aircraft! Complete with a 3 R's on the tail as the FR logo.
This operated for some time moving to HS748s and then onto ATR beyond that. It was operated to LTN most of the time until it eventually in 1991 was transferred to STN when the new terminal opened (it may have moved a little later, but 1991 was the date for the shift of focus from LTN over to STN for FR).
Manx Airlines in the guise of British Airways express operated a daily J41 to STN from Waterford in the 90's a while after FR pulled the route, which FR did as the ATR was being withdrawn. The STN route by FR operated from 1991, at a point when FR had one ATR left, which did GWY STN and WAT STN. The single airport did multiple flights each day.
Aside from STN and LTN and the initial LGW WAT has had Aer Lingus daily SH6 for a few years on the Dublin route, approx late 80s and Euroceltic did the same routes plus UK routes for a brief period.
Lets hope some good news comes quickly.
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LTNMan,
Routes change. For a ling time, RE's most profitable route was ORK-DUB. While Ryanair's entry on to the route was the ultimate cause of them leaving it, they haven't come back on now the route is vacant.
Routes change. For a ling time, RE's most profitable route was ORK-DUB. While Ryanair's entry on to the route was the ultimate cause of them leaving it, they haven't come back on now the route is vacant.
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LTNman said
LTNman seems to have a particular 'bee in his bonnet' about London Southend.
Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298
As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.
As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.
In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.
Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)
because of the SEN effect, rather the reverse it could be argued, although still a major loss of traffic on the route.
So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.
I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.
If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.
4
They were doing alot better from Luton, as the route had run for years and was Aer Arann's biggest money earner. Waterford Airport was horrified when the route shifted and their worst fears have now come true.
Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298
As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.
As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.
In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.
Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)
"plummetted"
So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.
I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.
If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.
4
Last edited by Red Four; 6th Nov 2012 at 14:43.
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LTNman seems to have a particular 'bee in his bonnet' about London Southend.
Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298
As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.
As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.
In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.
Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)
Quote:
"plummetted"
because of the SEN effect, rather the reverse it could be argued, although still a major loss of traffic on the route.
So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.
I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.
If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.
Anyway, some facts from the CAA statistics pages then: Pax Figures between Luton & Waterford
2008 75,767; 2009 71,027; 2010 60,298
As can be seen, there was already a major decrease in the route going on from 2008 onwards whilst at Luton (probably due to the economic situation, and improved access from Waterford to Dublin). 15,000 lost over 2 years is hardly convincing that it was thriving in 2010. No SEN or Stobart input at all for this decrease.
As I recall, when Stobart invested in Aer Arann, it was a case of the last chance saloon at that time - without the investment the airline would very likely have not survived. There would not likely have been any service from Waterford thereafter. I don't think Waterford were horrified, rather glad to that the service was continuing to London in some shape or form, rather than not at all.
In 2011 the figures to London were 43,757 (LTN 18,278, SEN 25,479). So the decline of recent years continued/accelerated - how much of this decrease was a continuation of the decline of the route over the last 2 years, how much to switching some of the route to SEN (and perhaps being less convenient for some pax.), and how much down to the fact that the functionality of the route to passengers was somewhat less by having it split between 2 airports with less frequency? I guess we will never know.
Interestingly, the decreases at LUT in Jan/Feb/Mar 2011 (the SEN service only commenced 27th March, so not a material factor), were 62%, 51% and 62% respectively from the previous years figures. From the combined figures for LUT and SEN in Apr/May/Jun 2011, the decrease was in the order of 27%, 30% and 21% respectively (from the previous years total for LUT only). From this limited look at the numbers, they hardly (as LTNman would have it)
Quote:
"plummetted"
because of the SEN effect, rather the reverse it could be argued, although still a major loss of traffic on the route.
So far in 2012 (until end of September), the figure has been 40,885 (LTN 15,924, SEN 24,961) - so the combined routes have shown some recovery from 2011 figures at both airports, with SEN perhaps slightly better increase than that at LUT, some no doubt due to Olympics traffic.
I think we can all agree that the splitting of the service between 2 airports on such small traffic figures was not a good move in retrospect and has undoubtedly hastened the demise, which seems as much to do with aircraft availability as anything.
If the services were concentrated at one airport, then I would imagine there is still a good case for a service to be operated by someone with an ATR size aircraft, and I hope that Aer Lingus Regional manage to return at some stage to the route, and that Waterford manages to retain a London service.
Routes change. For a ling time, RE's most profitable route was ORK-DUB. While Ryanair's entry on to the route was the ultimate cause of them leaving it, they haven't come back on now the route is vacant
Last edited by Jamie2k9; 6th Nov 2012 at 15:08.
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ATRs
Hi,
Quick query regarding the ATRs - had my first two flights on them this weekend GLA-DUB-GLA, is it just a perception issue due to their ground clearance, or are they actually taxied like an F1 car?
Enjoyed the ride, if not the security queues at DUB T1!
Quick query regarding the ATRs - had my first two flights on them this weekend GLA-DUB-GLA, is it just a perception issue due to their ground clearance, or are they actually taxied like an F1 car?
Enjoyed the ride, if not the security queues at DUB T1!
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Hi all, just observing the Waterford situation from the outside and the various commentary from both the airline and airport concerned, it looks like Waterford airport is suffering from the same demise as Galway did with passengers moving away gradually from regional airports with turboprop services to airports offering a wider choice of usually more competitive jet services with higher frequencies. The demise is further compounded with improving road infrastructure and more competitive parking etc at Dublin and to a lesser degree Cork.
Without continuing significant core operational support from government and the pso's it looks like it will be the end of most if not all so called regional airports, I hope I'm wrong.
Without continuing significant core operational support from government and the pso's it looks like it will be the end of most if not all so called regional airports, I hope I'm wrong.
Just perception mate, those ATRs sit pretty close to the ground. You get used to seeing the apron from the seat of a 320 or 737 or larger, but you have to remember you can be sitting 9-15ft above the ground rather than just a couple!
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Authority to look at Aer Arann takeover - The Irish Times - Tue, Nov 27, 2012
10 new ATR to the fleet.
10 new ATR to the fleet.