Aer Lingus - 6

[Copenhagen]

The unions in DAA are a joke, and have been toothless since the Lowrey days when the government and company neutered them through the process called compact.

[Epsomdog]

This whole pension fiasco has to come to a head sometime!

It has come about as a result of mismanagement by a number of party's.

1. The Irish government.
2. The pension trustees.
3. The companies involved (EI,DAA etc).
4. The Unions involved (including the staff).

It seems the only way forward is for ALL party's to take a fair share of the pain!

It is unreasonable for the only sufferers to be the future and present pensioners!

The government seems to be sitting on its hands at the moment, as for the trustees! I'm sure they've made sure their pensions are ok!

[Sober Lark]

Where else would you get such a terrific pension of at least 66% of final pay for those earning €60k and above and 89% for those earning under €30k? For the vast majority of people working in any other industry and trying to fund for their own retirement out of income such figures are unimaginable in fact they are phenomenal and bordering on absurd. Sorry, but don't you appreciate how very fortunate you are?

[Epsomdog]

at least 66% of final pay for those earning €60k and above and 89% for those earning under €30k?

If those figures were correct then I might agree with you!

Yes it was a good pension, there's nothing wrong with that being the case.

My point is that it's not fair that people employed for 35 years plus, that have based all their financial planning on what they believed was a rock solid entitlement, should now be told they're not going to recieve as much. At that stage it is too late to make other provisions!

I accept that when things go wrong then there will be a degree of "pain". My view is that should be shared equitably amongst ALL parties!

[Jack1985]

My point is that it's not fair that people employed for 35 years plus, that have based all their financial planning on what they believed was a rock solid entitlement, should now be told they're not going to recieve as much. At that stage it is too late to make other provisions!

Well said.

[EI-A330-300]

A joint government-ICTU-Ibec expert panel to look at the issue, SIPTU asked to defer action howver they currently have "no plans" to do so.

[Cyrano]

Originally Posted by EI-A330-300

A joint government-ICTU-Ibec expert panel to look at the issue, SIPTU asked to defer action howver they currently have "no plans" to do so.

Give them a day or two and they may suddenly discover an ability to rethink their plans...

[EI-A330-300]

EY increase their stake in EI from 2.987% to 3.01%

http://corporate.aerlingus.com/inves...h2014FINAL.pdf

[racedo]

EY increase their stake in EI from 2.987% to 3.01%

Really makes no difference as can never take it over and even getting to 49% and having others support it would fall fowl of law.

[EI-A330-300]

Really makes no difference as can never take it over and even getting to 49% and having others support it would fall fowl of law.

Well aware of the law, just pointing it out.

Anyway here is the damage on 14 March.

30 cancelled flights.
42 rescheduled flights.

Not to mention the lease in costs and costs of giving passengers to other airlines to.


4.30 tomorrow the a decision expected on Ryanair's appeal.

[racedo]

4.30 tomorrow the a decision expected on Ryanair's appeal.

You mean LATEST decision as still many lawyers who need their holidays to be paid for.

[EI-A330-300]

You're probably right however I feel MOlL is slowly coming around to the idea that it won't happen at all and once these last few appeals runs their course it will come to an end and sooner he will sell up. If that doesn't happen the Ryanair board will get sick of MOL and tell him sell up like they told him stop treating customers like ****.

[Jack1985]

If that doesn't happen the Ryanair board will get sick of MOL and tell him sell up like they told him stop treating customers like ****.

You got it in one, board is already dismayed with the shareholding - In the words of Cawley, ''Ryanair's single worst decision''.

[Sober Lark]

These types of pension schemes may provide very favourable benefits but there is nothing in legislation preventing increased taxation on these benefits during drawdown.

[DollarBill]

To my mind the early cancellation/rescheduling of the EI flights on 14th is a sign that they are unwilling to talk to SIPTU in order to avert this disruption.

Someone asked earlier about who funds the pension....the answer is employees and employers. No smoke and mirrors there.
However in the case of the IASS the problem has been known about for many years, but EI still make their staff pay into this fund. Most of the staff just want to stop throwing money into an empty pit. But their contract with EI stipulates that they must pay into the IASS. This is why the staff are unhappy with EI (I'm not sure if the same holds for the DAA staff)

The unions/mgmt actually agreed a proposal a year ago but was it was delayed by the trustee's. Since that time the situation has worsened so the unions are asking for an extra E50M between both companies to plug the gap to enable employees to get most of their entitlement and then be able to start paying into a new pension for each company. (BTW EI has over 1 Billion Euro in new cash reserves, with less than E350M of that ringfenced for aircraft leasing and purchases)
Meanwhile every month every member of the pension is getting deducted salary that they may never see again.


On the issue of the statement by EI of with-holding 'productivity payments'.....these payments are a once off bonus (less than E6.5m for 2014) given to staff in return for the E97m yearly savings generated as part of the Greenfield plan. So EI refusing to honour their own agreement shows the lack of integrity that prevails among EI senior mgmt.

Personally I do not feel this work stoppage will aid the workers, the deficit will still be there and it will only antagonise the travelling public. However looking at public statements I feel that EI senior Mgmt do not really want to avert this action. I recognise that extra payments are not seen as viable by the EI CEO or the DAA mgmt. But if I was a CEO with 1 Billion in the bank...and I was told I could give E50M to be finally rid of this pension issue (coupled with a pay freeze for 3 years) I would be jumping at that chance.

[racedo]

You're probably right however I feel MOlL is slowly coming around to the idea that it won't happen at all and once these last few appeals runs their course it will come to an end and sooner he will sell up.

Guys
Ryanair have stated on a number of occasions they are more than happy to sell to anybody who comes in with an offer.
That was said approx 2 years ago and yet no offers received.......that in itself tells a story, a very limited number of buyers.

It will not be from a non EU airline as they cannot hold that % of shares........
max they can hold is 49.9%
BUT if they bought FRs holding under Stock Exchange rules they are required to make an offer for whole company which they physically could not do.
One negates the other and Stock Exchange would not change rules for what would be a very minor takeover.

As for being worst decision think you need to put it into the context when that was stated.
Worst decision BUT not a wrong decision............that was what David Bonderman was stating.

Board agreed to make that decision not a single person and despite what people like to assume that what M'OL says goes I don't think any of the board members are Yes people.
Doubt David Bonderman would have enjoyed the success he has in life if he peopled boards with Yes men.

[racedo]

But if I was a CEO with 1 Billion in the bank...and I was told I could give E50M to be finally rid of this pension issue (coupled with a pay freeze for 3 years) I would be jumping at that chance.

They are scheduled to give €140 million minimum NOT €50 million and that doesn't include pilots scheme. They gave €104 million on float as I have already shown.

CEO cannot give any money without shareholder approval as ultimately it is their company not Managements or Employers.

The €97 saving is a smokescreen as many staff who left and returned to generate that saving were paid handsomely for doing so and also got their tax liability to the Irish Govt paid for by Aer Lingus.

[j636]

So the UK have dismissed Ryanair appeal however Ryanair are now appealing to the court of appeal in UK.

[Hangar6]

FR v EI

If only Ducksie could give all his legal fees wasted on rich lawyers to the pension fund, his EI shares would double in value and his worst business decision would come good. The lawyers are making a killing here on all sides, what a waste

[DollarBill]

Racedo.... I didn't mean to give the impression that it was only E50M. I should have been more clear. That figure is the extra that the unions are looking for from both company's. This would be on top of the LRC solution of 140m total from EI. So perhaps E30M of EI cash (subject of course to shareholder approval)

The EI pilots pension fund is a separate body and EI have no liability for that.

The E97M figure is NOT a smoke screen. It was delivered under the 2010-2012 Greenfield plan. The "leave and return" scheme that you refer to was part of the 2007 plan under that useless CEO Dermot Mannion that appeared to save money but didnt in reality.

And on that note it was under the CEO-ship of Mannion that the statement about the "once off payment E104M to end liability" was made. At that point the IASS fund was in the black. EI should have addressed the issue then when it was the 'boom years' and gotten themselves away from it.
Mueller apparently was pretty peeved to discover that EI never actually ended their liability at this time. So yes EI Execs from 2006 did give untrue statements to prospective investors. (as well as playing hard a fast with tax liabilites as regards lump sum payments)


Looking back it is a shame that EI did not get Mueller onboard in 2005-2006, instead they got a bungling CEO who made what appears to be huge mistakes and losses for EI.