FlyLAL (Lithuanian airlines)
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After Lithuanian CAA decision to stop validation of FlyLAL Air operator certificate, on last saturday, approx 544 people were in panic in Vilnius international airport... Many people, in the whole Europe(and beyond), are like hostages in different airports, because They have valid FlyLAL tickets, but can't fly to home... Sad story, but true...
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Hey Gang
I don't know if there is any truth in this, but, aparently when Lithuanian Airlines was privatised, it was re-established as the FlyLAL Group, incorporating several separate companies. The rumour, on several forums and in Lithuanian sites, is that FlyLal Airlines is the only part of the group that went under. In other words this is a convenient way of clearing bad debts.
Only last year, FlyLAL Charters was set up, coinciding with the arrival of the 752s. Their listed fleet is the exact same as FlyLAL. Are they still in operation? Ready to take over??
I had my suspicions though, that they were changing their business model. Begining last September, they cut alot of pax routes such as to Dublin and the UK. But, retained most of their charter/sunshine routes to the Med and Turkey.
I know they had Ryanair flying to Kaunas and direct competition with IE out of Vilnius, but, it seemed to me dreadful that they couldn't turn a profit on the Dublin route. There are estimated to be 80-100k Lithuanians in Ireland. They are more or less the second group after the Polish. I myself know at least 20 and thats just in my local Dublin suburb. There are several Lithuanian language newspapers distributed through dozens of East European food stores, that should have given an advertising edge!
Any views/news?
C
I don't know if there is any truth in this, but, aparently when Lithuanian Airlines was privatised, it was re-established as the FlyLAL Group, incorporating several separate companies. The rumour, on several forums and in Lithuanian sites, is that FlyLal Airlines is the only part of the group that went under. In other words this is a convenient way of clearing bad debts.
Only last year, FlyLAL Charters was set up, coinciding with the arrival of the 752s. Their listed fleet is the exact same as FlyLAL. Are they still in operation? Ready to take over??
I had my suspicions though, that they were changing their business model. Begining last September, they cut alot of pax routes such as to Dublin and the UK. But, retained most of their charter/sunshine routes to the Med and Turkey.
I know they had Ryanair flying to Kaunas and direct competition with IE out of Vilnius, but, it seemed to me dreadful that they couldn't turn a profit on the Dublin route. There are estimated to be 80-100k Lithuanians in Ireland. They are more or less the second group after the Polish. I myself know at least 20 and thats just in my local Dublin suburb. There are several Lithuanian language newspapers distributed through dozens of East European food stores, that should have given an advertising edge!
Any views/news?
C
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Story about FlyLAL charter is true... But currently, this company have few airplanes(B757, B7370, small part of the real old FlyLAL fleet. If We are speaking about schemes to cut off debts, all of the Lithuanian aviators will tell You black side of the things done... So much reasons in background...
Biggest part of the local(Meant Lithuanian) pilots are receiving salary splited in two parts
art 1- official part-little volume, stated in agreement(contract)for to show to state services(to reduce volume of taxes)
part 2-money, what is received only based on mutual agreement between employer and employee.
Currently, FlyLAL is without AOC... FlyLAL charter, and all rest FlyLAL group companies is online. But still anyone doesn't know how much time, because tourism market in Lithuania(I mean tourists from Lithuania) is going down... Only one term-Bad economical situation... People doesn't have so much money, for to travel.
Biggest part of the local(Meant Lithuanian) pilots are receiving salary splited in two parts
art 1- official part-little volume, stated in agreement(contract)for to show to state services(to reduce volume of taxes)part 2-money, what is received only based on mutual agreement between employer and employee.
Currently, FlyLAL is without AOC... FlyLAL charter, and all rest FlyLAL group companies is online. But still anyone doesn't know how much time, because tourism market in Lithuania(I mean tourists from Lithuania) is going down... Only one term-Bad economical situation... People doesn't have so much money, for to travel.
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Being just a PAX I can't speculate too much, but as a Lithuanian in Ireland I just don't understand how they couldn't manage to keep DUB-VNO profitable. Both FR to KUN and EI to VNO are _always_ completely full (ok ok, make it 95%). I flew EI to VNO two weeks after they opened the route - even then it was probably some 80% loaded. Oddly enough, BT couldn't take the competition either... No more going home every month for me. Sorry, too personal.
That aside, the whole thing looks like a very nice scam. It's true that FlyLAL Charters belong to the same owners as the airline. It's also true that none of the two own any airplanes - apparently they belong to Avia Asset Management, which (I think) also belongs to the same owners. There's also FlyLAL technics, which is said to be quite profitable.
Their attempt to sell the scheduled airline to Lithuanian government for 1LTL to "save the company" and then a couple of weeks later announcing that it was sold to some unknown Swiss holding company (which was established there in ___Dec, 2008___, previously having existed in Bermudas and UK) is at the very least suspicious. The said Swiss holding has a capital of 100000CHF (~67k EUR) and was supposed to take care of the company for some rumoured, unknown middle eastern owners.
The figures of the price and the loan (1m LTL + 1m EUR), mentioned above in this thread, were later admitted as being only rumours too.
The management are now trying to keep the public updated on their blog, which opened on a free service site, 9 days before going bust (interesting timing and approach... considering they had their office internet supply cut off and restored today). The blog in itself is not a bad thing and is apreciated, but the stuff that I've seen there makes me wonder about stuff...
* 3 days before going bust, a post about "What kind of routes are feasible from Vilnius", which has a quote about how they didn't have the right sized (smaller) planes for some of them. Well, what about SAAB's? Why waste money on B757s then? The conclusion of the post - we'll open more routes in summer.
* 2 days before going bust, a post about how their pricing transparency was better than Ryanair and Airbaltic - lots of optimisim - "please buy tickets"
* on the day of going bust, a post (now removed) about how they are trying to reach their partners in Switzerland. The dialogues described in there were utter BS, and reminded me of how some of the clients in my life tried to avoid paying me. Quotes where something along the lines of "the transfer probably got stuck somewhere in between the banks" and also a mention of some sort of "a weird, never seen, financial instrument, which can't be cashed". As I said - the post is gone (wonder why...), can't quote precisely.
At least now they have some info there for stuck passengers about their code-shared flights... Except that the info is not exactly the good news - only KLM is helping out (discount prices for connecting TE bookings using flights from RIX/TLL/WAW to AMS and reroute for KL bookings). Everybody else either refuse to honor the tickets/missed connections, or "no info".
I hope nobody minds I'm not a pilot, but there doesn't seem to be much "aviation" in this story anyways...
That aside, the whole thing looks like a very nice scam. It's true that FlyLAL Charters belong to the same owners as the airline. It's also true that none of the two own any airplanes - apparently they belong to Avia Asset Management, which (I think) also belongs to the same owners. There's also FlyLAL technics, which is said to be quite profitable.
Their attempt to sell the scheduled airline to Lithuanian government for 1LTL to "save the company" and then a couple of weeks later announcing that it was sold to some unknown Swiss holding company (which was established there in ___Dec, 2008___, previously having existed in Bermudas and UK) is at the very least suspicious. The said Swiss holding has a capital of 100000CHF (~67k EUR) and was supposed to take care of the company for some rumoured, unknown middle eastern owners.
The figures of the price and the loan (1m LTL + 1m EUR), mentioned above in this thread, were later admitted as being only rumours too.
The management are now trying to keep the public updated on their blog, which opened on a free service site, 9 days before going bust (interesting timing and approach... considering they had their office internet supply cut off and restored today). The blog in itself is not a bad thing and is apreciated, but the stuff that I've seen there makes me wonder about stuff...
* 3 days before going bust, a post about "What kind of routes are feasible from Vilnius", which has a quote about how they didn't have the right sized (smaller) planes for some of them. Well, what about SAAB's? Why waste money on B757s then? The conclusion of the post - we'll open more routes in summer.
* 2 days before going bust, a post about how their pricing transparency was better than Ryanair and Airbaltic - lots of optimisim - "please buy tickets"
* on the day of going bust, a post (now removed) about how they are trying to reach their partners in Switzerland. The dialogues described in there were utter BS, and reminded me of how some of the clients in my life tried to avoid paying me. Quotes where something along the lines of "the transfer probably got stuck somewhere in between the banks" and also a mention of some sort of "a weird, never seen, financial instrument, which can't be cashed". As I said - the post is gone (wonder why...), can't quote precisely.
At least now they have some info there for stuck passengers about their code-shared flights... Except that the info is not exactly the good news - only KLM is helping out (discount prices for connecting TE bookings using flights from RIX/TLL/WAW to AMS and reroute for KL bookings). Everybody else either refuse to honor the tickets/missed connections, or "no info".
I hope nobody minds I'm not a pilot, but there doesn't seem to be much "aviation" in this story anyways...
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Hey
There does seem to be alot of "smoke and mirrors" surrounding this story, as RIX BT and dymonaz have alluded to.
I am of the same view, I really can't understand how they couldn't make a go of the Dublin route. Like I said, there is a huge Lithuanian diaspora here, all of whom travel home at least twice a year. Yet, they cancelled the Dublin route but kept other routes (I can't think of them of the top of my head) open. Routes where there didn't seem to be any cultural/business links.
As for the fleet, buying the 752s was I think an indication that they were moving into the charter market in a big way. Aurela, the Lithuanian charter operator seems to be doing well, maybe they wanted to emulate them. They also, seemed to be doing quite alot of charter business out of Talinn. If they were interested in flying scheduled routes, but felt the 733/5s they were flying were too big they would have gone for something like an Embraer 190/195.
I have a feeling we haven't heard the last of this!
C
There does seem to be alot of "smoke and mirrors" surrounding this story, as RIX BT and dymonaz have alluded to.
I am of the same view, I really can't understand how they couldn't make a go of the Dublin route. Like I said, there is a huge Lithuanian diaspora here, all of whom travel home at least twice a year. Yet, they cancelled the Dublin route but kept other routes (I can't think of them of the top of my head) open. Routes where there didn't seem to be any cultural/business links.
As for the fleet, buying the 752s was I think an indication that they were moving into the charter market in a big way. Aurela, the Lithuanian charter operator seems to be doing well, maybe they wanted to emulate them. They also, seemed to be doing quite alot of charter business out of Talinn. If they were interested in flying scheduled routes, but felt the 733/5s they were flying were too big they would have gone for something like an Embraer 190/195.
I have a feeling we haven't heard the last of this!
C
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One more wievpoint of this...
23.01.09: Goodbye, flyLAL
Category: News, politics, and such Posted by: rene
Lithuanian Airlines has ceased its operations. I sincerely hope that this will allow airBaltic to get one step closer to the inevitable (and in my opinion desirable) goal to become a regional airline that is at home in all three Baltic States. Honestly, I had been waiting for this moment - even though, of course, I at the same time feel sorry for the employees who lose their jobs in the course of these events.
And I read flyLAL's last press release, where one line blames "unfair market conditions" (among other factors, of course) for the airline's death. Unfair? From all I know, I'd say you were outperformed, guys.
The press release, which can be seen under flyLAL, also mentions the still pending "unfair competition" lawsuit against airBaltic.
More quotes? Here you go (exact words and grammar): "Being the citizens of the Republic of Lithuania we are sure that only national carrier can secure the interests of the state itself. Therefore flyLAL (...) is open for further proposals, which can secure further direct flights from Vilnius to various destinations." (Vytautas Kaikaris, CEO).
In what way exactly can 'only a national carrier' secure the interests of the state? What are state interests in that case in the first place? Aren't we rather talking about citizen's interest in direct flights from an airport in their proximity? That's not primarily a state interest, but a people's interest. In what way could 'only a national carrier' secure these interests? And isn't it so that a few months back, airBaltic had about as many direct flights operating from Vilnius as flyLAL (if not more!), not to mention a lot of excellent connection flights via Riga? That was when airBaltic allegedly performed what flyLAL calls "unfair competition", and what I call "smart business strategy versus a local airline that has simply failed to understand that times DO change".
Mister Kaikaris still believes in the state to heal all wounds? Believes that an airline's purpose to exist is to secure interests of a state? That an airline has to be state-owned or 'national' in order to serve the interests of the people (or the government, for whatever that should mean)?
It's 2009, for god's sake.
And the game is called business.
So, quo vadis, airBaltic (unfortunately also still 52.6% state-owned)?
Well, the management buy-out of the SAS stake (47.2% they say; wonder where the 0.2 remaining percent are) seems to be coming in the nearest days, which I think is a step forward (I would have preferred a scenario in which the Latvian State would have sold its stake to SAS, and then Lufthansa buying SAS, but I admit that's a bit much to wish for). Maybe the Latvian State will finally sell its stake nevertheless - I think this would be another step forward. Lufthansa, where's your offer? Come on, you got the cash!
permalink: renefischer.net - stuff blog » Goodbye, flyLAL
23.01.09: Goodbye, flyLAL
Category: News, politics, and such Posted by: rene
Lithuanian Airlines has ceased its operations. I sincerely hope that this will allow airBaltic to get one step closer to the inevitable (and in my opinion desirable) goal to become a regional airline that is at home in all three Baltic States. Honestly, I had been waiting for this moment - even though, of course, I at the same time feel sorry for the employees who lose their jobs in the course of these events.
And I read flyLAL's last press release, where one line blames "unfair market conditions" (among other factors, of course) for the airline's death. Unfair? From all I know, I'd say you were outperformed, guys.
The press release, which can be seen under flyLAL, also mentions the still pending "unfair competition" lawsuit against airBaltic.
More quotes? Here you go (exact words and grammar): "Being the citizens of the Republic of Lithuania we are sure that only national carrier can secure the interests of the state itself. Therefore flyLAL (...) is open for further proposals, which can secure further direct flights from Vilnius to various destinations." (Vytautas Kaikaris, CEO).
In what way exactly can 'only a national carrier' secure the interests of the state? What are state interests in that case in the first place? Aren't we rather talking about citizen's interest in direct flights from an airport in their proximity? That's not primarily a state interest, but a people's interest. In what way could 'only a national carrier' secure these interests? And isn't it so that a few months back, airBaltic had about as many direct flights operating from Vilnius as flyLAL (if not more!), not to mention a lot of excellent connection flights via Riga? That was when airBaltic allegedly performed what flyLAL calls "unfair competition", and what I call "smart business strategy versus a local airline that has simply failed to understand that times DO change".
Mister Kaikaris still believes in the state to heal all wounds? Believes that an airline's purpose to exist is to secure interests of a state? That an airline has to be state-owned or 'national' in order to serve the interests of the people (or the government, for whatever that should mean)?
It's 2009, for god's sake.
And the game is called business.
So, quo vadis, airBaltic (unfortunately also still 52.6% state-owned)?
Well, the management buy-out of the SAS stake (47.2% they say; wonder where the 0.2 remaining percent are) seems to be coming in the nearest days, which I think is a step forward (I would have preferred a scenario in which the Latvian State would have sold its stake to SAS, and then Lufthansa buying SAS, but I admit that's a bit much to wish for). Maybe the Latvian State will finally sell its stake nevertheless - I think this would be another step forward. Lufthansa, where's your offer? Come on, you got the cash!
permalink: renefischer.net - stuff blog » Goodbye, flyLAL
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After flyLAL’s operating licence got cancelled, there is a hole on the local aviation market that might be filled by Estonian Air, Äripäev quotes Postimees.ee.
According to Ministrys information Lithianian Transportation Minister Eligijus Masiulis met with Estonian Air’s holding company SAS’ representatives yesterday, to discuss how to restore the connection from Vilnius Airport to other European countries.
Although the Minister didn’t reach official agreement with SAS' representatives, one option is that Estonian Air will take the place of bankrupt flyLAL.
Ilona Eskelinen, the spokesperson of Estonian Air did not confirm such possibility, but said that the company eyes Lithuanian market.
Permalink: balticbusinessnews.com - Estonian Air could take the place of flyLAL
According to Ministrys information Lithianian Transportation Minister Eligijus Masiulis met with Estonian Air’s holding company SAS’ representatives yesterday, to discuss how to restore the connection from Vilnius Airport to other European countries.
Although the Minister didn’t reach official agreement with SAS' representatives, one option is that Estonian Air will take the place of bankrupt flyLAL.
Ilona Eskelinen, the spokesperson of Estonian Air did not confirm such possibility, but said that the company eyes Lithuanian market.
Permalink: balticbusinessnews.com - Estonian Air could take the place of flyLAL
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After flyLAL’s operating licence got cancelled, there is a hole on the local aviation market that might be filled by Estonian Air
Estonian Air are so ridiculously over priced, they are almost a wholey business airline. Air Baltic, flying more direct routes from Vilnius, would be a far better replacement for Fly LAL.
Since we are speculating....Aer Lingus already operate Vilnius-Dublin....I wonder could they add a few more routes? Especially now that they have a hub at Gatwick.
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Today, Lithuanian newspapers and news provider on internet "Delfi.lt', told abuot first facts in FlyLAL black history... As previosly discussed in forum, the rest parts of the FlyLAL group are working, and have good financial situation. Everybody can visit FlyLAL Training homepage Shareholders - Aviation Training Centre, and will be informed about future plans of this company...
The Lithuanian government working group, which is investigating financial history of FlyLAL, is opened some facts... We have to wait for next news...
The Lithuanian government working group, which is investigating financial history of FlyLAL, is opened some facts... We have to wait for next news...
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RIXBT
I don't understand the viewpoint in your posted blog "23.01.09: Goodbye, flyLAL":
The author criticizes FlyLal for relying too much on government support, and show's Air Baltic as good example. But reality is totally different.
FlyLal was 100% private company and didn't receive any support from local government and we can see the result. Other main airlines in the region: Air Baltic is 52% government owned, is still flying, Estonian Air as well is 51% government owned and still flying. Air Baltic is known to receive generous support from Latvian goverment in various shapes, and it was one of the reasons why they outperformed FlyLal.
The reality shows for me, that especially in hard economic times, government support is vital for airlines to survive.
I don't understand the viewpoint in your posted blog "23.01.09: Goodbye, flyLAL":
The author criticizes FlyLal for relying too much on government support, and show's Air Baltic as good example. But reality is totally different.
FlyLal was 100% private company and didn't receive any support from local government and we can see the result. Other main airlines in the region: Air Baltic is 52% government owned, is still flying, Estonian Air as well is 51% government owned and still flying. Air Baltic is known to receive generous support from Latvian goverment in various shapes, and it was one of the reasons why they outperformed FlyLal.
The reality shows for me, that especially in hard economic times, government support is vital for airlines to survive.
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To Asdrius:
Sorry, but it's not my wievpoint, it was posted in other forum by rene. You can read all topic on renefischer.net - stuff blog » Goodbye, flyLAL
Sorry, but it's not my wievpoint, it was posted in other forum by rene. You can read all topic on renefischer.net - stuff blog » Goodbye, flyLAL
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Lithuanian prosecutors asked to probe FlyLAL bankruptcy.
Lithuanian authorities said Monday they have asked prosecutors to probe suspicions that intentional mismanagement drove the Baltic state's flagship airline FlyLAL into bankruptcy last week.
"The ministry has turned to the national prosecutor's office. The file we gave them was pretty hefty," transport minister spokeswoman Irina Sklepovic told AFP.
In a statement, the ministry said that it had grounds to suspect that the carrier's leadership had knowingly mismanaged the formerly state-owned company in order to send it bankrupt.
Sklepovic declined to say why the authorities' suspicions had been aroused, or why it could have been in the interests of FlyLAL's management to send the airline to the wall.
FlyLAL -- also known by its full name FlyLAL-Lithuanian Airlines -- filed for bankruptcy last Friday, a week after the country's aviation authorities had grounded it and a court had frozen its assets as a salvage deal unravelled.
On January 9, FlyLAL had announced its sale to Swiss Capital Holding (SCH), later saying that the Zurich-based group was acting for Middle Eastern investors.
But on January 17, a day after the grounding, FlyLAL had accused SCH of failing to respect its side of the bargain, and said it was voiding the sale and was poised to go bankrupt.
FlyLAL has debts of around 90 million litas (26 million euros, 34 million dollars).
In December, the airline had sought government aid, proposing to sell the authorities a 51-percent stake for a symbolic one litas, but the transport ministry rejected the idea.
FlyLAL was the market leader in Lithuania, a nation of 3.4 million people which joined the European Union in 2004.
Despite increasing its passenger numbers by 52 percent in 2008, it could not overcome growing debt.
Lithuanian officials blamed tough competition from airBaltic, based in neighbouring Latvia, as well as the effects of high fuel prices and the global financial crisis.
FlyLAL was privatised in 2005, with Lithuanian groups ZIA Valda, Indeco, Sanitex and VA REALS holding stakes of 40.73 percent, 27.15 percent, 22.63 percent and 9.49 percent respectively.
In 2007, it posted a loss of 8.1 million litas (2.35 million euros, 3.2 million dollars) on revenues of 262.9 million litas.
Permalink: France 24 | Lithuanian prosecutors asked to probe FlyLAL bankruptcy | France 24
Lithuanian authorities said Monday they have asked prosecutors to probe suspicions that intentional mismanagement drove the Baltic state's flagship airline FlyLAL into bankruptcy last week.
"The ministry has turned to the national prosecutor's office. The file we gave them was pretty hefty," transport minister spokeswoman Irina Sklepovic told AFP.
In a statement, the ministry said that it had grounds to suspect that the carrier's leadership had knowingly mismanaged the formerly state-owned company in order to send it bankrupt.
Sklepovic declined to say why the authorities' suspicions had been aroused, or why it could have been in the interests of FlyLAL's management to send the airline to the wall.
FlyLAL -- also known by its full name FlyLAL-Lithuanian Airlines -- filed for bankruptcy last Friday, a week after the country's aviation authorities had grounded it and a court had frozen its assets as a salvage deal unravelled.
On January 9, FlyLAL had announced its sale to Swiss Capital Holding (SCH), later saying that the Zurich-based group was acting for Middle Eastern investors.
But on January 17, a day after the grounding, FlyLAL had accused SCH of failing to respect its side of the bargain, and said it was voiding the sale and was poised to go bankrupt.
FlyLAL has debts of around 90 million litas (26 million euros, 34 million dollars).
In December, the airline had sought government aid, proposing to sell the authorities a 51-percent stake for a symbolic one litas, but the transport ministry rejected the idea.
FlyLAL was the market leader in Lithuania, a nation of 3.4 million people which joined the European Union in 2004.
Despite increasing its passenger numbers by 52 percent in 2008, it could not overcome growing debt.
Lithuanian officials blamed tough competition from airBaltic, based in neighbouring Latvia, as well as the effects of high fuel prices and the global financial crisis.
FlyLAL was privatised in 2005, with Lithuanian groups ZIA Valda, Indeco, Sanitex and VA REALS holding stakes of 40.73 percent, 27.15 percent, 22.63 percent and 9.49 percent respectively.
In 2007, it posted a loss of 8.1 million litas (2.35 million euros, 3.2 million dollars) on revenues of 262.9 million litas.
Permalink: France 24 | Lithuanian prosecutors asked to probe FlyLAL bankruptcy | France 24
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It seems like a story is continued...
State rejects offer from flyLAL group shareholders
Lithuania’s Ministry of Transport and Communications says it is unwilling to assume responsibility or discuss a recent proposal regarding a new national airline from the shareholders of the company that owned the bankrupt airline flyLAL. The group of local businessmen offered the government to buy 50 percent of the shares in flyLAL Charters, a company that has continued operating charter flights since the collapse of flyLAL’s scheduled traffic, for LTL 4-7 million (EUR 1.16-2 million), or place the national carrier entirely in the hands of flyLAL Charters. Transport Minister Eligijus Masiulis retorted that it would be the government that decides whether the state would participate in the establishment of a national carrier.
permalink:Tours.lv - Latvijas t?risma vort?ls (A?ent?ra AGENDA) - Zi?as - State rejects offer from flyLAL shareholders
State rejects offer from flyLAL group shareholders
Lithuania’s Ministry of Transport and Communications says it is unwilling to assume responsibility or discuss a recent proposal regarding a new national airline from the shareholders of the company that owned the bankrupt airline flyLAL. The group of local businessmen offered the government to buy 50 percent of the shares in flyLAL Charters, a company that has continued operating charter flights since the collapse of flyLAL’s scheduled traffic, for LTL 4-7 million (EUR 1.16-2 million), or place the national carrier entirely in the hands of flyLAL Charters. Transport Minister Eligijus Masiulis retorted that it would be the government that decides whether the state would participate in the establishment of a national carrier.
permalink:Tours.lv - Latvijas t?risma vort?ls (A?ent?ra AGENDA) - Zi?as - State rejects offer from flyLAL shareholders
