MANCHESTER - 7
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Brisbane
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I have made my choice
Despite being a gold-card holder with One World, I've decided to boycott the bastards and have booked myself onto Etihad for a MAN-SYD journey later this month. I'll avoid that hell-hole called LHR, and I won't miss it one bit. And the fares were very attractive too - QF, CX, BA and JAL were all quoting GBP5,500-ish for a 1-way J-class fare; Etihad from Manchester charged me GBP 2,400-ish and I also get a limousine at each end to get me to/from the airport.
Last time I flew to SYD in February, I booked onto QF2 from LHR with a BA shuttle from MAN. What happened? The shuttle was delayed for 4 hours and I missed my flight. BA didn't care a fig and if it wasn't for my One World status I'd have been left floundering.
Incidentally, I flew on the BA MAN-JFK service in May in J class, and there were 5 empty seats in the cabin. In World Traveller Plus there were two empty seats, which suggests that premium ticket sales weren't as disastrous as is being made out. In fact, World Traveller Plus would have been full except for my parent's failure to make the flight - they had booked onto the same flight in order to accompany my wife and I to New York, but a family emergency meant they had to cancel at the last minute. BA decided not to refund their fares, so there's a few more quid in their coffers.
I won't be connecting via LHR again when it comes to long-haul travel. I might miss out on some One World points, but I'm going to start building them up with other airlines.
Last time I flew to SYD in February, I booked onto QF2 from LHR with a BA shuttle from MAN. What happened? The shuttle was delayed for 4 hours and I missed my flight. BA didn't care a fig and if it wasn't for my One World status I'd have been left floundering.
Incidentally, I flew on the BA MAN-JFK service in May in J class, and there were 5 empty seats in the cabin. In World Traveller Plus there were two empty seats, which suggests that premium ticket sales weren't as disastrous as is being made out. In fact, World Traveller Plus would have been full except for my parent's failure to make the flight - they had booked onto the same flight in order to accompany my wife and I to New York, but a family emergency meant they had to cancel at the last minute. BA decided not to refund their fares, so there's a few more quid in their coffers.
I won't be connecting via LHR again when it comes to long-haul travel. I might miss out on some One World points, but I'm going to start building them up with other airlines.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Ethid v LHR
Perhaps the above post proves the point againast MAN/BHX etc.
Why are they charging such high fares at LHR. That is where the pax are and the money made.
A non S/E poster but facing facts.
Centre cities
Why are they charging such high fares at LHR. That is where the pax are and the money made.
A non S/E poster but facing facts.
Centre cities
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Skipness, you get real. I was dealing with the problems generated by the attitude of BA and its predecessors long before your daddy knew what a twinkle in his eye was, let alone dreamt of you.
BA did not screw Prestwick. The airport is 30 miles from its population centre and lost a great deal of relevance once the range of transatlantic aircraft increased and more when Abbotsinch was able to handle long range traffic.
As far as Manchester is concerned, the airport is 10 miles from the city and in the heart of a region with as many people within a 75 mile radius of the city centre as within 75 miles of Charing Cross (2001 census). The region is quite capable of generating long range traffic as can be seen by the healthy use of Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, Dubai and Qatar as transit points.
No-one can blame foreign airlines, which provide direct services from MAN to their hub, for looking for connecting passengers. At least they have the sense to realise there is both point to point and transit traffic.
What BA, which still claims to be Britain's premier airline when it promotes itself around the world, has done is to follow in the footsteps of its constituent antecedents. It has decided not just to treat the provinces as foreign territory from which to feed its hub and ignore the potential to compete for long haul and European direct services, it has deliberately put pressure on its alliance partners to reduce Manchester and other non Heathrow airports' services - e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - twice a day in summer - to 5 days a week this winter.
Worse, QANTAS, which had excellent VFR traffic and operated over a number of European points to MAN during the period of its service was, as soon as BA took a large shareholding, forced to fly one Sydney service a day on from LHR to MAN instead of the flight over a European point. This looked good at the time for MAN as the airline stated that the reason was it was cheaper to keep the aircraft on the ground at MAN than LHR - thus more revenue for MAN.
What they didn't say was that the Sydney -London service used was the busiest of the day, few Manchester passengers could get a booking as the computer gave the London pax priority and the sector to/from MAN often had less than 50 pax, compared to the 150-170 generated regularly when the service was flown over a European point and the computer did not discriminate against MAN bookings.
Of course the BA bean counters soon pointed to the poor performance ex MAN and pulled the service.
The MAN pax, denied access to the service when it was operating, quickly learned that SIA, Emirates and others offered not only another way to travel but often offered better on board service.
Thus MAN can now support Emirates, Qatar and Etihad, on which a good percentage of the passengers are heading down under.
But it doesn't end there. BA stil has enormous influence in the corridors of power. Its input into discussions on bilateral arrangements and access to the UK is listened to and often acted upon. There is still a great deal of left over belief in Whitehall and Westminster that BA is still the chosen instrument of British civil air transport regardless of the fact that it has been a private company for over 20 years and should have no more or less weight given by government to its needs and opinions as, say, Highland Airways.
Having said all that, BA aren't the only culprits when it comes to screwing Manchester - and other provincial - passengers. Over the last 3 decades I've repeatedly tried to have airline and holiday company CEOs and marketeers explain why Manchester inclusive tour passengers are surcharged on flights to North America compared to Gatwick, when the distances involved are the same or less - with the Gatwick aircraft often overflying MAN on their direct flights.
Manchester as a city has changed beyond recognition in the last 30 years -particularly since the IRA bomb.
Over the next decade there will be a continuation of the growth in the migration of companies and institutions to the North for many reasons - a growth which will pervade through and beyond the current economic difficulties.
It will be very interesting to see just how long it will take the likes of BA to get the message - or how long before they miss out big style.
Looking back 40 years and more the Southern wiseacres postulated that airports like Manchester would never prosper or support anything more than a handful of services. Even a Labour Minister in Wilson's government, who should have known better, told a Manchester Airport Committee meeting in 1968 that the airport couldn't expect much growth over the coming 20 years as there would be no demand from Northerners to travel.
So, before advising those of us who've been there, done it all and got the t-shirt, having sat through days of meetings, heard every argument and who, against all the odds, have succeeded in developing travel to/from MAN, to "get real" you might just think that some people know a great deal more of the background to the reality than you and have years of experience of watching the fiddling of figures, the twisting of arguments and the straightforward statement that Heathrow comes first, middle and last, regardless of the wishes of a vast proportion of the UK travelling public
BA did not screw Prestwick. The airport is 30 miles from its population centre and lost a great deal of relevance once the range of transatlantic aircraft increased and more when Abbotsinch was able to handle long range traffic.
As far as Manchester is concerned, the airport is 10 miles from the city and in the heart of a region with as many people within a 75 mile radius of the city centre as within 75 miles of Charing Cross (2001 census). The region is quite capable of generating long range traffic as can be seen by the healthy use of Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, Dubai and Qatar as transit points.
No-one can blame foreign airlines, which provide direct services from MAN to their hub, for looking for connecting passengers. At least they have the sense to realise there is both point to point and transit traffic.
What BA, which still claims to be Britain's premier airline when it promotes itself around the world, has done is to follow in the footsteps of its constituent antecedents. It has decided not just to treat the provinces as foreign territory from which to feed its hub and ignore the potential to compete for long haul and European direct services, it has deliberately put pressure on its alliance partners to reduce Manchester and other non Heathrow airports' services - e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - twice a day in summer - to 5 days a week this winter.
Worse, QANTAS, which had excellent VFR traffic and operated over a number of European points to MAN during the period of its service was, as soon as BA took a large shareholding, forced to fly one Sydney service a day on from LHR to MAN instead of the flight over a European point. This looked good at the time for MAN as the airline stated that the reason was it was cheaper to keep the aircraft on the ground at MAN than LHR - thus more revenue for MAN.
What they didn't say was that the Sydney -London service used was the busiest of the day, few Manchester passengers could get a booking as the computer gave the London pax priority and the sector to/from MAN often had less than 50 pax, compared to the 150-170 generated regularly when the service was flown over a European point and the computer did not discriminate against MAN bookings.
Of course the BA bean counters soon pointed to the poor performance ex MAN and pulled the service.
The MAN pax, denied access to the service when it was operating, quickly learned that SIA, Emirates and others offered not only another way to travel but often offered better on board service.
Thus MAN can now support Emirates, Qatar and Etihad, on which a good percentage of the passengers are heading down under.
But it doesn't end there. BA stil has enormous influence in the corridors of power. Its input into discussions on bilateral arrangements and access to the UK is listened to and often acted upon. There is still a great deal of left over belief in Whitehall and Westminster that BA is still the chosen instrument of British civil air transport regardless of the fact that it has been a private company for over 20 years and should have no more or less weight given by government to its needs and opinions as, say, Highland Airways.
Having said all that, BA aren't the only culprits when it comes to screwing Manchester - and other provincial - passengers. Over the last 3 decades I've repeatedly tried to have airline and holiday company CEOs and marketeers explain why Manchester inclusive tour passengers are surcharged on flights to North America compared to Gatwick, when the distances involved are the same or less - with the Gatwick aircraft often overflying MAN on their direct flights.
Manchester as a city has changed beyond recognition in the last 30 years -particularly since the IRA bomb.
Over the next decade there will be a continuation of the growth in the migration of companies and institutions to the North for many reasons - a growth which will pervade through and beyond the current economic difficulties.
It will be very interesting to see just how long it will take the likes of BA to get the message - or how long before they miss out big style.
Looking back 40 years and more the Southern wiseacres postulated that airports like Manchester would never prosper or support anything more than a handful of services. Even a Labour Minister in Wilson's government, who should have known better, told a Manchester Airport Committee meeting in 1968 that the airport couldn't expect much growth over the coming 20 years as there would be no demand from Northerners to travel.
So, before advising those of us who've been there, done it all and got the t-shirt, having sat through days of meetings, heard every argument and who, against all the odds, have succeeded in developing travel to/from MAN, to "get real" you might just think that some people know a great deal more of the background to the reality than you and have years of experience of watching the fiddling of figures, the twisting of arguments and the straightforward statement that Heathrow comes first, middle and last, regardless of the wishes of a vast proportion of the UK travelling public
Last edited by philbky; 16th Nov 2008 at 20:38.
Its because ALL northeners have a 'chip' on their shoulder
Unlike the shandy drinkin southern jessies who with a chip on both shoulders have a much more well balanced personality.
Anyway enough of the name calling.
AA are to bring forward their resumption of daily flights.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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booked onto QF2 from LHR with a BA shuttle from MAN
My point about PIK was that BA prevented anyone else setting up at PIK forced SAS and KLM out and then left the airport for dead in Spring 1982 when they left themselves.
Skipness, you get real. I was dealing with the problems generated by the attitude of BA and its predecessors long before your daddy knew what a twinkle in his eye was, let alone dreamt of you.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Old, well late middle aged(!). Wise, well wise enough to have got out of the rat race but any wisdom I do have is more in terms of knowledge and hard won experience.
I firmly believe that BA will eventually withdraw totally from Sussex Regional aka Gatwick. The reasons are myriad if you look closely at BA's philosophy.
As for Prestwick, I don't understand your premise. SAS, KLM,TCA/Air Canada, BA, Pan American only needed PIK (and SNN for that matter) when they needed to refuel.
I don't recall SAS and KLM having fifth freedom rights ex PIK - though AC and PA did.
I firmly believe that BA will eventually withdraw totally from Sussex Regional aka Gatwick. The reasons are myriad if you look closely at BA's philosophy.
As for Prestwick, I don't understand your premise. SAS, KLM,TCA/Air Canada, BA, Pan American only needed PIK (and SNN for that matter) when they needed to refuel.
I don't recall SAS and KLM having fifth freedom rights ex PIK - though AC and PA did.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
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Manchester Airport runs online game to promote shops
Shops, Shops, Shops....MAN is as bad as my missus !
Story from UK Airport News...
"Manchester Airport is running a Christmas themed online game to increase awareness of its retail outlets following a £80m investment...."
...story continued but I lost the will to read !
Story from UK Airport News...
"Manchester Airport is running a Christmas themed online game to increase awareness of its retail outlets following a £80m investment...."
...story continued but I lost the will to read !
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Dallas from Manchester didn't last long, and never had an MD11 on it.
Manchester was, however, the first european airport to see AA MD11 service, from Chicago.
Regards
Mike
Manchester was, however, the first european airport to see AA MD11 service, from Chicago.
Regards
Mike
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I don't recall SAS and KLM having fifth freedom rights ex PIK - though AC and PA did.
Do we know if the ORD flight is going to 2 x B757s for certain next summer?
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Aeulad,
You are quite right about the MD 11s - my screw up whilst editing prior to posting.
The line should read:
e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, twice a day in summer (2nd flight a 767) - to 5 days a week this winter.
BTW the Dallas flight operated for a couple of years and AA also were pressured by BA into dropping MAN - JFK which benefitted CO.
You are quite right about the MD 11s - my screw up whilst editing prior to posting.
The line should read:
e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, twice a day in summer (2nd flight a 767) - to 5 days a week this winter.
BTW the Dallas flight operated for a couple of years and AA also were pressured by BA into dropping MAN - JFK which benefitted CO.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Was there any reason in particular for the row of BMI Airbuses parked up by the freight sheds on friday evening? I have never seen them parked here before.
Just to chuck my hat into the poor treatment of the Airport by BA debate.......
We are flying out to Faro with friends in Feb 09. They are travelling up from Portsmouth so we decided to look at booking a LOCO from the London Area. We found to our suprise that BA from Gatwick were the cheapest available at just £55 return (RYR were the cheapest based just on a fare but then throw in the extras
)
After finding this great fare we looked at booking MAN - LGW. To our amazement it came in at £85 each way per person, £170 return.
This was four months ago. I was amazed at how much the 45 minute domestic sector was compared to the two and a half hour flight to Faro from Gatwick.
Were now driving down and staying overnight at LGW. Damm ripoff London Airways.
Steve
Just to chuck my hat into the poor treatment of the Airport by BA debate.......
We are flying out to Faro with friends in Feb 09. They are travelling up from Portsmouth so we decided to look at booking a LOCO from the London Area. We found to our suprise that BA from Gatwick were the cheapest available at just £55 return (RYR were the cheapest based just on a fare but then throw in the extras
)After finding this great fare we looked at booking MAN - LGW. To our amazement it came in at £85 each way per person, £170 return.
This was four months ago. I was amazed at how much the 45 minute domestic sector was compared to the two and a half hour flight to Faro from Gatwick.
Were now driving down and staying overnight at LGW. Damm ripoff London Airways.
Steve
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is there any truth in the rumour that DL are to start BOS-SNN/MAN?
Would be a great addition to the T2 line up, and obviously has the feed into the NW network at BOS.
NW did want to launch MAN-BOS when they were independant but never got round to it, so could this be the start?
Would be a great addition to the T2 line up, and obviously has the feed into the NW network at BOS.
NW did want to launch MAN-BOS when they were independant but never got round to it, so could this be the start?
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I would be surprised at BOS-SNN/MAN from DL. They have just announced their long haul updates and MAN did not get anything yet.
There is really no hubbing carriers at BOS. DL/NW merger may make them biggest (not 100%), but it is certainly not a hub as we would call it.
I would think that up gauging aircraft into MAN maybe next, to pick up some PAX affected by BA/BMI, and hopefully a DTW-MAN leg.
Just my 2 cents from this side.
There is really no hubbing carriers at BOS. DL/NW merger may make them biggest (not 100%), but it is certainly not a hub as we would call it.
I would think that up gauging aircraft into MAN maybe next, to pick up some PAX affected by BA/BMI, and hopefully a DTW-MAN leg.
Just my 2 cents from this side.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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The only long haul from either airline is BOS-AMS on NWA ( and that's a recent KLM replacement I think.) I would say no, especially via Shannon (!) Who told you that one?
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I live 35 miles from SNN as the 757 flies and the loss of the AA 757 BOS service came as a blow to SNN as loads were always good (can't comment on the yield).
This again was due to deals and alliances (AA/Aer Lingus) and now there are many times when Aer Lingus is full, very expensive or both on SNN-BOS and vv.
SNN - BOS is likely to be profitable May - October. The added cost of a MAN sector compared to extra income is questionable on a 757 but the extra seats on a 767-300 may just make such a route viable but I wouldn't put my last cent on it.
This again was due to deals and alliances (AA/Aer Lingus) and now there are many times when Aer Lingus is full, very expensive or both on SNN-BOS and vv.
SNN - BOS is likely to be profitable May - October. The added cost of a MAN sector compared to extra income is questionable on a 757 but the extra seats on a 767-300 may just make such a route viable but I wouldn't put my last cent on it.
ost #155